WEBVTT - Jerry Harrison 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:12.640 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:18.120 My guest today Jerry Harrison, needs no introduction. You were 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:22.160 just talking about having met before, and Jerry started talking 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:27.240 about his problem with record companies. Jerry tell us the story. 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:32.519 So I was producing a band called Pure that was 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.720 from Vancouver and their manager was one of the organizers 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:41.519 of Music West, which is where we met. And the 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.080 band was called Pierre, and they had a song called Pierre, 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:49.279 And so what did the record company put out as 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:55.640 the first single? Blast? And then, of course record companies 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.440 being record companies, Blast didn't do quite as well as 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.160 they had hoped, so they spent by the time they 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:03.480 got around to Pure. Pure came out in Canada, but 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:07.600 never in the United States. It's like, you have a 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:09.840 song and a band with the same name. Don't you 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.800 think that that's a great advertising technique. Let's, you know, 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:16.520 put the money behind that. Everybody will know the song 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:20.720 and they'll know the name of the band. But you know, 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:25.440 it's sort of like horses and water. So what has 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.840 been your experience in your lengthy career with record companies. 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.840 Sometimes they're very very astute and very good, and but 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:38.200 many times they outthink themselves and they they never want 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.680 to spend money in advance, and so therefore they missed 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:47.360 gigantic copper opportunities. And the one time that I overcame 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:55.000 that was when when Tony has recorded Little Creatures. Ah, 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.520 David had been making our videos, so he had he 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:03.160 had were with Tony Basil on once in a lifetime. 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.400 She had done cross on him painless. And then he 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:11.000 worked with Julia something I can't remember her last name 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.920 on bringing down the House. So I went to Gary 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:18.959 kirkerstar manager, and I said, we need we're a band, 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:22.480 we need all be involved in making videos. We want 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:27.200 to make four videos for Little Creatures. He goes, well, 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:29.280 Warner Brothers never go for that, and I said, well, 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.160 then tell him we're not turning in the album. And 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:35.840 so we went to Warner Brothers and he said what 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:39.560 I said, and he said, I got you three. So 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:42.920 we all did storyboards for the various songs that they 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:49.000 thought should be videos, and the first video, strangely really 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.720 to me, was the Lady Don't Mind, and it was 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:54.200 a mixture of something that Tina had come up with 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.880 and what I came up with. And Uh, I was 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.320 good friends with Jim jarme As who made Stranger Than 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:03.160 para Ice and brought him on as basically the director, 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:06.720 but who I kind of co directed it with Uh. 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.679 Chris and Tina did with Teddy baff for Lucas Stay 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:14.600 Up Late, and then David did with Steven Johnson Road 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:18.960 to Nowhere. Then Warner Brothers decided that and She Was 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:22.280 would be the first single, so they hired Jim Blashfield 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.040 to do a He was sort of did a kind 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.919 of cartoon version for for videos. So in the end 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.359 we walked in When the album was released with four videos, 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.400 we also got like small budgets like forty dollars apiece. 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.600 But because we were conversant with how do you make 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:44.200 videos friends with people in that industry, we could do it. 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.360 That album was our biggest selling record. And the reason 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.680 it was a bigger biggest selling record is that MTV 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:54.440 always had a video ready to go when the when 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:58.400 the one that was sort of running out of steam, 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:03.280 there was another one to go and it you know, 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:07.040 and I tried to tell this too when I was 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.280 producing the violent films. It's like you have this song 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:14.640 old Mother Reagan, it lasts for one minute. Go to 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:16.599 the U c L A U c L A film 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.200 class and say you're gonna give ten thousand dollars and 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.560 you want every student to make a version of old 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:25.040 Mother Reagan. Men picked the top four and play him 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:29.320 in a row. But they don't do it. You know, 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:34.719 I had uh. I was producing uh big hitan the Monsters, 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.159 and I got John Lee Hooker to be on Boom 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.680 Boom Boom. This is amazing version. I don't know if 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:42.760 you've heard it. It's a theme of a TV show 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.880 which I can't recall. Right. The second so I knew 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.880 John Lee Hooker's manager. He was from Milwaukee as I am, 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:50.359 and I said would he be in a video? And 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.479 he goes, yeah, I gotta pay him, but sure. So 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.800 I went to Giant Records, which was earning Ace Offs Wreck, 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:59.280 and he goes, well, we're putting our money into this 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.280 other single maybe in a few months. Well, John Lee 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.120 died a month later, so we would have been the first. 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.680 We would have been the last recording of John Lee Hooker. 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:13.960 MTV would have played at NonStop. But you know there, 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:18.760 you know, not thinking ahead. They they missed the vote 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:21.600 and missed and missed making a lot of money. If 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:28.560 you ask me. Okay, at this late date, because you 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.360 were in graduate school when you all to be joined 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:35.880 talking heads, you feel confident in all your decisions. Would 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:38.680 you like to replay any of this? You can't, but 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.479 if you could, I think I would have been a 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:45.480 great architect. But I'm very happy with the decisions I've made. 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:49.240 So let's go back to that. How did you meet 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.719 Jonathan Richmond? He came in my apartment with There was 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:59.760 a contingent of Andy Warhol superstars that lived in Cambridge. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:01.600 I don't know if you ever read the book about 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:04.680 Edie Sedgwick. Yeah I read it. Yeah, so she was 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:06.520 there just a little bit before that. But there was 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:11.479 this guy, ed Hood may Rickard was around. I think 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.040 that actually Andy Paley was part of that. So I 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:18.280 came in with Jonathan and baha, stop for a second. 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:23.520 How did you know all these people? Uh? I was 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:27.440 just part of being in a scene in Cambridge. Okay, 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.560 well let's just start there. So you go to Harvard undergrad. 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.719 I mean some people sit in their dorm room and study. 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:37.320 Other people barely go to school. So you move from 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.120 Milwaukee to Harvard. Do you immediately say, and this is 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:44.120 a very you know tumultuous and also positive time. Do 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:48.760 you merely integrate yourself in the culture pretty much? And 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:50.960 I played in a band and one of the guys 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.960 who I played in a band with had been in 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:58.080 prep school at Putney with Andy Paley, and Andy, who 0:06:58.160 --> 0:06:59.880 was hanging around in New York, had gotten to know 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:04.000 Danny Fields and various people in a sort of warhole 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:09.880 expanded group. So when he came up to Cambridge, I 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.559 think he probably introduced us first to some of these people. 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:18.400 But we can't we fit in so and so we 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:22.080 would see them. And then Jonathan came in and he 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:27.040 was raving about the Velvet Underground album Loaded, and I 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:32.120 was making a film about alienation, and I went, Jonathan 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:37.520 seems to take energy and excitement from the things that 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.520 I think are alienating other people, which is sort of oh, 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:45.000 you know, over corportization of society and stuff like that. 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.600 So the film had two thirds two people that were 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.880 sort of overwhelmed by what were the changes of society 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.880 and Jonathan, who was embracing it. So I filmed Jonathan 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.320 like driving along Route nine out in Native and stuff 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.240 like that, pointing out all the road signs. He loved 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.840 the new ones he hated and things like that. He's 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:10.720 generally the Jonathan Richmond philosophy. I recorded a concert of 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:13.680 him playing, and I was using that as the background 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:17.680 music for the movie. My roommate was Ernie Brooks, and 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.360 he kept coming and goes like, you know, this music 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:22.960 is sort of amazing. It just sort of can't get 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:26.680 it out of my head. Meanwhile, Jonathan saw kindred spirits 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:30.520 and he started hanging around all the time. And so 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:34.240 actually Ernie and I dropped out of Harvard second semester 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:38.839 senior year to join the Modern Lovers. Okay, slower at 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:42.680 one point, let's go back to the Alienation movie. One 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:47.360 of the big differences between popular music today and the 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:51.360 area you're talking about was alienation was a core element. Yes, 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:57.880 now you seem very rooted. Are you someone who feels alienated? No, No, 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:03.560 I feel I've I don't feel alienated, but I feel 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:09.120 that sometimes my pherosophy what I believe about life at 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:15.600 some of the new uh let's say, philosophical theories I'm 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:20.960 pretty much a disagreement with. But I that's I disagree. 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:24.360 I'm not alienated. Well, let's talk about the type you 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.920 because as we get older, we are more comfortable in 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.760 our shoes and fit in and you know, and you've 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:33.720 built a career. But back then we use someone who 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:39.080 was you know, well he anti this and he antie that, Yeah, 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:41.640 it was. I had been in a in a band 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:44.079 in high school and then I've been an abandoned college. 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:45.440 But I never thought I was going to be a 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:48.480 professional musician. For a long time, I thought I was 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:50.720 gonna be a scientist, and then I was. I was 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.400 actually a painter for a while, and a sculptor and 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:58.439 a filmmaker and then but I always thought that architecture 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:00.040 might be where I was going to end up. And 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.960 I used to build things all the time, and I 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.360 thought that I have a mathematical sense. I thought it 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.439 might be a good balance between what I had. However, 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:14.160 I felt in this in the sixties, in particular, that 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:18.840 music determined the culture, and that I felt that like 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.480 Bob Dylan and the Beatles were more important than John 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:27.160 Kennedy as far as determining what people thought. So the 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.520 idea of ending up being a musician to me was 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.240 almost the highest thing to aspire to. I just didn't 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:37.880 think that I had the training as a musician to 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.560 be that. But when I met Jonathan and started and 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:46.080 then I went, Jonathan is playing something unlike anybody else 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:49.400 in the world, and this deserves to be heard. And 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:51.480 I have a real place in this. I know how 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:55.240 I can make this better. So just because I don't have, 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:59.640 you know, the training from the academy, it doesn't matter 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:03.600 at all all. I just had the right sensibility and therefore, 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:06.680 and I'm and this is going to influence the world. 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:10.240 I have no idea how commercially successful it'll be, but 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:12.680 I know it's going to have the influence. And that's 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.160 what I wanted to do. And frankly, it's the same 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:16.720 thing with the Toggy Heads is that when I met 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:20.400 the Talking Heads, I went, nobody's doing this, and I 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:22.040 have a there's a place for me to make this 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:26.559 even better and condemn it. I'm gonna do it. Okay, 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:28.840 let's talk about Jonathan himself. I happen to be a 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:33.760 big fan. Only album that you're on, Pablo Picasso, etcetera. 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:37.959 And Roadrunner. I always thought I'm gonna make an analogy, 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:42.840 which is bad. Um. I have some history with Jene Simmons, 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:46.040 and what shocked me about Gene Simmons is he is 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:50.040 that guy. Most people there's two people, there's the front facing, 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.840 and then you know, everybody gets along. Not Gene Simmons. 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:57.360 I always thought Jonathan Richmond was the same way, but 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:01.920 now I think there's obvious he's something quirky, something different 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.959 about We had that big opportunity. Those people don't get 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:10.360 a second round with something about Mary. Whatever you know 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:14.040 is a guy. He doesn't appear or I hate to 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:18.600 use word normal, but standard. Well, I absolutely agree with 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.880 you that he's a unique person. In fact, he's showing 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:25.920 up tomorrow night to do another album with me. I've 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.560 done two albums. Have you heard the album saw I 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.640 did with him? And there's a and and there's a 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.720 follow up record. So I've had two more records with 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:36.959 him in the last few years. They're on Blue Arrow 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:40.400 Records out of Cleveland. They are not on any streaming service. 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.400 You have to kind of work to get him. But 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.280 they're amazing and they're unlike any music being recorded right now. 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:51.160 Right now, he's been down in Tucson doing recording reggae 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:54.440 tone music and then we're going to add parts starting tomorrow. 0:12:55.840 --> 0:13:02.040 Didn't I read something he got into construction, uh mason masonry. 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.400 I love what he said about it. He goes, you know, Jerry, Ah, 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:08.480 there's a lot of people who are saying mason and 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:12.480 music is their hobby. I'm a musician and masonry is 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:17.720 my hobby. So someone like Jonathan Richmond, who never really 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:21.120 sold any records and his music wasn't really covered, does 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:26.160 he have any money? He seems to have enough to 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.520 live the way he wants to live. He does, He's not. 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.440 He certainly doesn't make decisions based upon trying to have 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.440 enough have to make as much money as possible. He 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:41.160 makes decisions. You know, he has a wife, he has 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:46.200 a daughter. It's a second life. And so I'm not 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:50.760 saying that economic concerns don't affect him. Uh. He just 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.800 bought some property up in Chico. Until he's got a 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:55.760 lot of I think he has a lot of construction 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.160 to do. He's also been helping this architect of the 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:03.920 masonry because he's very much into not using Portland's cement 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:05.840 or very little bit of it, which is the more 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:10.240 modern way to bind bricks together, which is stronger. He 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:16.200 likes the Roman lime lime mortar, where you like different 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:18.080 mortar depending on whether it's in the sun and the 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:22.240 shade but it lasts longer. So he has long discussions 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.120 with this architect about what percentage of Portland cement and 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:31.960 lime mortar to use and he loves it. Okay, why 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:34.920 did he not break bigger? Because everything you're saying is true. 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:37.440 I mean, I remember he had the song what rock 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:42.119 in shopping center? I'm talking about balls, even having flags, 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:48.800 I mean, just incredible insight government center. Right? What why? Um? 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:51.440 Was there something about him that he couldn't be bigger 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.920 or it just wasn't in the carts. I think that 0:14:54.960 --> 0:15:00.880 there was somewhat of an issue is that when we 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:06.360 we should have made a record immediately, but we got 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.640 so many offers from record companies and managers that it 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:11.920 took us a year or so to try and sort 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.560 it all out because we just were considered the next 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:26.560 hot thing, and Jonathan was uh evolving, and he evolved 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:30.200 away from the anger and the teenage angst that we 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:34.080 would say that the first modern Lovers album UH so 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:43.240 beautifully captures. In addition, David Robinson, the drummer, is a perfectionist, 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.360 so he was never satisfied with the recordings and he 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:51.480 always wanted to make them exceptionally meticulous, and these were 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:56.840 two very opposite tracks to be going down. David Robinson 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.120 basically took all the ideas he had for the Modern 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:03.560 Lovers and he uh brought them to the Cars and 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.960 that's the basis of the sound of the Cars. But 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:11.400 staying with Jonathan Richmond, you drop out of college, you 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:16.200 start playing with Jonathan Richmond, Walk me through what that 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:19.520 period of time? How long until you sign a deal 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:25.600 and you make this record? Well, So dropped out January 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:30.880 of nineteen seventy one, joined the Modern Lovers. I was 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.480 able to squeeze in the last semester of college while 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.520 in the Modern Lovers, so I got to graduate. And 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.440 in the spring of nineteen seventy two, Lillian Roxon, who 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:45.480 wrote for the Daily Encyclopedia of Rock the Australians right, 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:53.240 wrote an article about us that just caused every manager 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:55.720 and every record company to make a pilgrimage. We were 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:59.640 living in this small house in Cohasset, Massachusetts, because we 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:03.440 would we were renting a summer house because we could 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.360 play music there and be loud, and they had come 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:10.120 down there, and we were making very little money. I mean, 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:14.200 we were really broke. And I remember Alan Mason from 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:18.000 from UH from A and M who made many trips 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.640 came out and I find it that Alan don't take 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.199 us out to dinner. Can you just buy us some 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:28.760 groceries because we just try and eat as much as 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.600 possible when but it's like it doesn't last, which he 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:34.720 did and he was sleeping on the couch and stuff 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:39.919 like that. But we had some very funny experiences there. Um, 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.480 but you know, everyone from David Geffen to Steve Paul 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:48.639 and Danny Fields too, Schiffmann and Larson too, five Davis came. 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:53.959 I mean, you know, it was it was so obviously 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:55.679 it was very hard to make decisions because we were 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:57.840 all these really good offers and we were trying to 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:02.040 find the right thing between someone who had the power 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.600 to make things happen, but also the belief of the 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:07.320 band and the book and you might say the honesty 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:09.840 that we were looking for, and that was it was 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:14.200 a tricky thing for us to negotiate. So how did 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.440 you ultimately make a decision? What decision did you make? Well? 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.040 We went with Warner Brothers with John Kle and a 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:24.760 guy named David Burson who was always uh who would 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:29.320 have been more Austin's kids tutors and he had been 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:31.600 given a job as a special assistant to my lost 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:38.760 and the trouble was that Jonathan had been moving, had 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:44.000 been moving from a song like uh, modern World or 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:46.840 she cracked into a song like Hey, their little insect 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.840 by the time we got back to California. And that's 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.760 why the demos that we made with John Cale and 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.159 Alan Mason that we made in the spring of nineteen 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:01.439 really reflected as best as possible boat what the Bondom 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.639 Lovers were, the early Bondern lovers were really about. And 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:09.440 that's the record that berserk Lely Records eventually put out. Okay, 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.080 you signed with Warner, what do you do for a manager? 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.520 We eventually went with Eddie Tickner, who managed the Birds 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:22.959 and Graham Parsons, and we were hanging around with Graham 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:28.440 Parsons and actually Phil Kaufman, who has the distinction is 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.199 that he's the one who burned Graham Parson's body in 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:34.840 the desert, was our road manager. In fact, we were 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:41.439 playing basketball with Graham four days before he died, and 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:45.080 we played at we played at the party that because 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:51.879 Phil the had to pay for the coffin uh, the 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:57.199 family at first wanted to charge him with stealing the coffin, 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.280 but he talked about a pact that Graham he had 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:03.080 made that whoever died first, the other person would take 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:07.639 him them out and cremate them at Joshua Tree. Graham 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:09.800 was a little bit strange from his family. I don't 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:11.960 know if you know the history of Graham Parsons, but 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:16.560 his father committed suicide on Christmas Day, and then his 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:22.440 mother uh married a wealthy gentleman from New Orleans who 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:26.520 Graham never really got along with. Graham then went to 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:29.679 the Bulls School in Jacksonville, Florida, which one of my 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.919 roommates in college went to two years behind him. And 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.560 one of my advisers at Harvard had been good friends 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.760 with Graham because Graham had been under him. So we 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:43.120 had all these kind of connections. Um very sad, one 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.840 of the greatest talents and it's it's it's it's awful 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:51.920 that that happened and h But anyway, so we were 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:55.679 with Eddie Tickner and Phil as our road manager. But 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:58.000 Eddie didn't really do the greatest job as a manager, 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:00.199 but we just sort of we sort of believe that 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:04.879 he was honest. It was stupid. You were in Cohassett. 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:07.359 Were you just in l A to make the record 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.160 that everybody bood? We moved to l A because John 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:12.479 Cale wanted us to make the record there, so we 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:16.199 moved in this I think in the summer of nineteen 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:20.119 l A, which where we were totally fish out of water, 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.280 and because there was a thing in our contract that 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.439 we did not get all of our advance until we 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.040 had a manager, and then Eddie when he became our manager, 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:33.359 didn't collect it. So by the time we sort of 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:36.920 broke up, we had still never gotten our advance, and 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:40.800 it was we would do things like we'd be walking 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.399 along the street and walked down to the Old World 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.439 restaurant if you remember that. On of course, because we 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:48.919 were living on King's Road. First we lived over in 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:51.359 the valley, we moved into a house Emmy Lou Harris 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:54.920 moved out and we moved into this house on Woodman Boulevard, 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:58.879 which was maybe insane over there. So finally moved to 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.080 this house on King's Road that was supposed to be 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:05.159 across from Wolfman Jack. So we'd walk and the police 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:07.160 would come up next to us in going did your 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:09.840 car breakdown? We go, no, we're walking and they go like, 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:13.040 are you sure you're not robbing something? We go, now 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:15.680 we're walking. They got nobody in l A walks where 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:26.760 we go? We're not from l A. We're walking. Okay. 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:29.440 How does it disintegrate and how does the album not 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:34.120 come out? Well, we tried working with Kale again, and 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:38.040 I would say that there was a moment where John 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:43.119 Kale said to Jonathan Jonathan, I want you to be 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:47.320 play this solo like you feel really mad or me 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:52.119 and Jonathan went but John, I don't feel matter me 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:55.320 And I think that he realized at this point that 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:58.040 the band had changed so dramatically from the year before. 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:02.080 I actually learned to like guitar because Jonathan had changed 0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:05.240 his guitar parts and I said, I'll play the original parts. 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:09.359 So actually Jonathan gave me my first guitar, a telecaster, 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:12.320 and I learned to play all the original parts so 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:14.040 that I could play them in the studio because he 0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:18.320 didn't want to play them. So how did it literally disintegrate? 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:21.760 You're sacrificing everything for this band. I'm sure you don't 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.000 want it to break up. No, I didn't want to 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:26.520 break up, and but it just cut to the point 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:28.680 that it was like Jonathan. We were not going to 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.320 be flexible enough to go exactly where Jonathan wanted to go. 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:34.800 Especially David and we you know, there was his ideas 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:36.960 like we have this body of materially want to do 0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:40.280 a great version of it, then we'll move on. But Jonathan, 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:44.760 being sort of living in the moment, will say I 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:51.520 can't do it the same anymore, and so David quit 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.919 and we I think that Jonathan went up and started 0:23:55.960 --> 0:24:00.880 hanging around in Berkeley with Matthew Kaufman who was managed 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:06.560 this band Earthquake, and then Greg Keen and had this 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:11.600 what he called a gorilla h record company called berserk Ley, 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:14.880 and David, Bernie and I drove back to New York. 0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:19.280 Eventually Jonathan came back East and Bernie and I tried 0:24:19.600 --> 0:24:22.080 playing with him again. David had moved to l A 0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:24.920 to play in a different band. Actually, this guy who 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:27.680 had played in my high school band, Pop Turner, came 0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:32.400 and played drums. He had gone off and fought in Vietnam, 0:24:32.520 --> 0:24:36.480 and I had had moved back and I had convinced 0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:38.119 him that he ought to go to Bennington because he 0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:40.800 was miserable going to school in Milwaukee, which is where 0:24:40.840 --> 0:24:43.720 I'm from and where he was from, and he came 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:45.960 down to Cambridge and then he played in the Modern 0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:50.400 Levers and we started playing songs that were tried to incorporate, 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:55.159 incorporated Jonathan's new sound, but trying to do some of 0:24:55.200 --> 0:25:00.359 the old songs. But eventually Jonathan's desire for right to 0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:04.040 be exceptionally quiet. It was sort of like there's just 0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:08.919 no room for the rest of us, and so I 0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:10.840 think Bob and I just said, like, let's say it 0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:15.480 just doesn't work. It's like there's no place for me here. Okay, 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:20.200 were you aware because you're obviously disappointed the album comes 0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:23.560 out on Berserkilely, like four years later? Did you know 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:26.119 that was going to happen? And what was that experience? Like? 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:28.760 I knew it was going to happen because I had 0:25:28.800 --> 0:25:31.240 to sign a contract, which was the worst contract I 0:25:31.359 --> 0:25:35.200 ever signed in my life, because it was Berserkly Records, 0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:36.960 and because I didn't have the money to pay for 0:25:37.000 --> 0:25:39.679 a lawyer to look at it. I didn't even have 0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:41.800 the right to audit sold a billion records. I made 0:25:41.840 --> 0:25:46.600 five thousand dollars. However, it was the best decision I 0:25:46.680 --> 0:25:48.760 ever made because the talking heads would never have knew 0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:54.760 known I existed if I had not made that stupid contract. Wow, 0:25:54.840 --> 0:25:57.879 let's go back to the beginning. You're from Milwaukee. What 0:25:57.960 --> 0:26:01.800 do your parents do for a living? My father was 0:26:01.840 --> 0:26:05.440 an advertising He had commanded a ship at the Pacific 0:26:05.480 --> 0:26:09.160 during World War Two. My mother was a painter, very 0:26:09.480 --> 0:26:13.040 great painter, as my grandmother was an amazing painter as well. 0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:15.760 My aunt was an artist although she died in nine 0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:20.560 but a wonderful photographer. My mom and my aunt had 0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:24.120 gone to Cranbrook at the highlight of Cranbrook when Charles 0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:28.199 Eames and Barrow Serene and Harriet Petoya were there in 0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:30.320 the forties, where it was the leading art school in 0:26:30.359 --> 0:26:35.160 the country, sort of the closest that the United States 0:26:35.200 --> 0:26:38.159 had to the Bow House. So I came from a 0:26:38.240 --> 0:26:41.600 very artistic family. My grandmother played piano and painted and 0:26:41.640 --> 0:26:44.080 did all these things. So I was kind of brought 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:46.919 up in that, taking art lessons when I was a 0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:50.719 little kid, and uh, taking music lessons. My father had 0:26:50.760 --> 0:26:54.080 played jazz, saxophone and clarinet, fluted a band. That's how 0:26:54.080 --> 0:26:59.040 he supported himself going through college. And had your family 0:26:59.160 --> 0:27:04.080 been in Sucky a while while Milwaukee and ultimately did 0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:10.920 that help you will hurt you. My father's father lived 0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:14.920 on a farm in South Dakota and never he never 0:27:14.960 --> 0:27:18.760 graduated from great school. But he had a bad tooth 0:27:19.240 --> 0:27:22.000 and he dug it out of his mouth with a nail, 0:27:22.960 --> 0:27:24.960 and he did such a good job. He decided he 0:27:24.960 --> 0:27:27.879 would be a dentist. So he took the train to 0:27:28.000 --> 0:27:32.080 Chicago to go to Northwestern And when the train stopped 0:27:32.080 --> 0:27:34.520 in Milwaukee, someone said, there's a very good dental school 0:27:34.560 --> 0:27:39.719 here at Marquette. So probably to say something like cents, 0:27:39.800 --> 0:27:41.920 he got off and went to Marquette and lived there 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:44.159 for the rest of his life. And did he become 0:27:44.200 --> 0:27:48.119 a dentist. In fact, his models are still in the 0:27:48.320 --> 0:27:52.959 Museum of Dentistry at Marquette. And how many kids in 0:27:53.000 --> 0:27:58.119 your family? I'm an over child, Okay, So you start 0:27:58.160 --> 0:28:01.719 going to school. Are you the leader of the gang? 0:28:01.840 --> 0:28:06.159 Are you the outcast? What's your formative years? What do 0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:09.639 those look like? That sort of depends on what time 0:28:09.640 --> 0:28:12.760 periods you know in I would certainly not saying I 0:28:12.800 --> 0:28:15.920 was the leader of the gang, but I was an 0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:23.679 important member. Will say, but I I certainly understood the 0:28:23.760 --> 0:28:28.240 potential for sort of teenage alienation in high school of clicks, 0:28:28.760 --> 0:28:32.720 trying to get along, trying to be I don't know, 0:28:32.840 --> 0:28:36.080 cool or something like that. The thing that was amazing 0:28:36.119 --> 0:28:41.520 about when I grew up in Milwaukee is bands became 0:28:41.600 --> 0:28:47.680 this really big thing, and the bands up until that time, 0:28:49.560 --> 0:28:56.000 people generally other than athletes only hung out with people 0:28:56.080 --> 0:29:00.400 in their own grade. But bands broke that. We broke 0:29:00.400 --> 0:29:03.840 because we had musicians from different grades in our bands, 0:29:04.400 --> 0:29:09.240 so we knew people in three different grades. I mean 0:29:09.280 --> 0:29:11.800 I did some sports too. I was on the track team, 0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:14.800 so I knew people from that. But the bands and 0:29:14.880 --> 0:29:16.840 like there was like this. My friends had this group 0:29:16.880 --> 0:29:20.920 called the Relaxers, and they said, we stand for everything 0:29:21.080 --> 0:29:25.280 that are anti athlete. Everything that athletes stand for, we 0:29:25.320 --> 0:29:28.760 stand for the opposite. So we're all members of the Relaxers. 0:29:29.560 --> 0:29:34.240 And interestingly, my high school band, the guitar player went 0:29:34.280 --> 0:29:37.320 on to become Leonard Khn's guitar player for years. I 0:29:37.360 --> 0:29:40.080 know Bob because you went to you went to high school. 0:29:40.440 --> 0:29:44.080 My friend Jeff Wiker, Jeff, I know Jeff Wiker right, 0:29:44.120 --> 0:29:45.840 So he moved l A and introduced me to all 0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:49.440 those people. So I sat and then John Paris played 0:29:49.480 --> 0:29:52.480 with Johnny Winner for ten years. The bass player. The 0:29:52.600 --> 0:29:54.680 drummer went off to be a marine and fight at 0:29:54.720 --> 0:29:58.120 Caisson and all the battles in Vietnam, and the lead 0:29:58.160 --> 0:30:00.080 singer of that band went on to become the of 0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:04.120 the American Institute of Architects. Pretty amazing for us, and 0:30:04.840 --> 0:30:09.640 the people around us are the Zucker brothers who made Airplane, Ghost, 0:30:10.200 --> 0:30:13.320 Naked Gun and all of those movies. So a little 0:30:13.320 --> 0:30:16.200 suburban high school in Milwaukee put out an awful lot 0:30:16.200 --> 0:30:19.480 of great art. Okay, I went to school in the 0:30:19.560 --> 0:30:22.840 suburbs in Connecticut, fifty miles from New York City, and 0:30:23.000 --> 0:30:26.720 nobody broke through. So what was in the water? Why? 0:30:28.760 --> 0:30:31.479 You know? Part of it is there were gigs. Is 0:30:31.520 --> 0:30:34.920 every after every basketball game and every football game, there 0:30:34.960 --> 0:30:37.760 was a gig at the high school that hosted. So 0:30:37.840 --> 0:30:41.240 there was a need for lots of bands. And so 0:30:41.440 --> 0:30:44.880 if you got to be in that good enough to 0:30:44.920 --> 0:30:48.440 be part of that group of bands, you could play 0:30:48.520 --> 0:30:50.640 and you could make a little bit of money. And 0:30:50.680 --> 0:30:53.680 we would go all over town to hear all of 0:30:53.680 --> 0:30:58.080 the different bands, and like going into really dangerous, dangerous 0:30:58.080 --> 0:31:00.480 for coming from a different part of town and slightly 0:31:00.520 --> 0:31:03.040 dangerous to go into those neighborhoods. I mean, I was 0:31:03.080 --> 0:31:06.400 at a dance where the Italian Gang and the Puerto 0:31:06.480 --> 0:31:09.600 Rican Gang we just I started, I walked out in 0:31:09.760 --> 0:31:13.040 one minute later the whole thing exploded. You know what 0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:17.960 is it? You know when fools go where a brave 0:31:18.040 --> 0:31:20.000 man fears to tread, or something like that. It was 0:31:20.040 --> 0:31:24.920 sort of like that. Okay, let's go back. You're old 0:31:25.040 --> 0:31:29.960 enough to have music consciousness prior to the Beatles. Was 0:31:30.000 --> 0:31:32.200 your desire to be in a band as a result 0:31:32.200 --> 0:31:34.280 of the Beatles in the British invasion? When did that 0:31:34.320 --> 0:31:36.200 become a thing for you? Now? I was in a 0:31:36.200 --> 0:31:40.080 band before the Beatles were in America, and we did 0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:45.600 R and B music. So your musical training, you took 0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:48.840 piano lessons. I took piano lessons, and then I stopped 0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:51.600 playing piano and I played saxophone in the high school band, 0:31:51.640 --> 0:31:54.440 trying to be like my father a little bit. And 0:31:54.480 --> 0:31:58.120 then I was in a Dixieland band playing saxophone and 0:31:58.240 --> 0:32:00.400 freshman year of high school and then soft my year, 0:32:00.840 --> 0:32:04.560 this drummer the Vie the Marine. So I want to 0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:06.400 form a band. I think you should play keyboards, and 0:32:06.440 --> 0:32:09.240 so I started playing keyboards in that band what we're 0:32:09.240 --> 0:32:14.280 called the Walkers. Okay, and so to what degrease since 0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:16.760 you started before the Beatles, to what degree to the 0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:20.280 Beatles in the British Invasion changed things for you? We 0:32:20.400 --> 0:32:23.440 got um, I would say that less than the Beatles. 0:32:23.520 --> 0:32:28.400 It was more the Yardbirds, the Who and somewhat the Stones, 0:32:28.800 --> 0:32:34.120 the more Blues influenced parts of the British Invasion. That, uh, 0:32:34.520 --> 0:32:37.480 the sort of the Walkers Part two, the one that 0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:41.880 what Bob Metsker switched from playing bass to guitar, was 0:32:42.760 --> 0:32:47.720 very influenced by the English Invasion. So you're going to 0:32:47.840 --> 0:32:51.080 high school to get into Harvard, you have to be 0:32:51.120 --> 0:32:56.680 a pretty good student. So were you very dedicated to academics? Yeah? 0:32:56.720 --> 0:32:58.200 I kind of felt like I had a deal of 0:32:58.240 --> 0:33:02.040 my parents, like if I get good grades and leave 0:33:02.080 --> 0:33:08.920 me alone, And so I did that. To what degree 0:33:08.960 --> 0:33:14.880 were you a bad kid? Testing limits? Uh? Enough? I 0:33:14.960 --> 0:33:17.240 mean obviously the people that did a lot worse, But 0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:24.000 I don't know. Lots of getting drunk, lots of dangerous driving, 0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:27.760 lots of I mean, the other thing that was great 0:33:27.800 --> 0:33:30.120 is that when you're in a band and you have 0:33:30.240 --> 0:33:32.040 to do you want to get something to eat after 0:33:32.280 --> 0:33:34.080 your parents get really use to you getting home at 0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:37.520 two or three in the morning. Up until that time. 0:33:37.800 --> 0:33:39.640 There was one time when I think freshman year, where 0:33:39.640 --> 0:33:41.840 I had a girlfriend and I walked home and they 0:33:41.840 --> 0:33:43.600 had called the police because they were worried about me. 0:33:44.800 --> 0:33:46.400 By the time I was in a band, they kind 0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:50.480 of expected that I would be getting home late. And 0:33:50.600 --> 0:33:53.680 when you go to college, do you bring a keyboard, 0:33:53.840 --> 0:33:56.520 do you bring instruments? Or you first think you're gonna 0:33:56.560 --> 0:33:59.920 leave that behind. I sold everything. I thought, I'm gonna 0:34:00.000 --> 0:34:01.520 wear a suit in the tie as a whole new 0:34:01.560 --> 0:34:04.280 part of my life. And then I got to college 0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:07.320 and Ernie Brooks, who lived in my same dormitory, form 0:34:07.360 --> 0:34:11.520 to band, so I'd go watch him play, and I went, well, 0:34:11.520 --> 0:34:13.840 I'm as good as these guys, I can join this band. 0:34:14.840 --> 0:34:18.720 So I joined that band, and then I went home 0:34:19.640 --> 0:34:24.239 and uh one of my couple of summer jobs. One 0:34:24.800 --> 0:34:26.920 one year before I went to Harvard, I went I 0:34:26.960 --> 0:34:31.520 worked in a lockwasher factory, which was quite an experience. 0:34:31.719 --> 0:34:33.880 And then the next year I worked at Evan Route 0:34:33.880 --> 0:34:37.640 in the industrial relations department. And when I came back 0:34:37.680 --> 0:34:41.160 from that, the Fender dealership for the entire United States 0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:45.360 was for the for the entire Midwest was in Milwaukee. 0:34:46.239 --> 0:34:53.960 Miss Pedal gets hard player named of Ralph Hansel. So 0:34:54.080 --> 0:34:57.680 I went out to West Alice Music and I went 0:34:57.719 --> 0:35:00.560 shopping buying news stuff and I drove it trailer back 0:35:00.600 --> 0:35:03.160 and it was like Christmas for the band I bought brought. 0:35:04.040 --> 0:35:05.800 I don't know. I spent like two thousand dollars and 0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:09.160 got like six amplifiers and mics and all this stuff. 0:35:09.280 --> 0:35:13.680 And so we started rehearsing and then the band Albatross 0:35:13.800 --> 0:35:17.759 it was called. Then we were playing at Harvard like 0:35:18.200 --> 0:35:23.239 outside when we shut down the university in nine and 0:35:23.280 --> 0:35:24.839 we were playing out on the lawn and we were 0:35:24.840 --> 0:35:26.239 a part. You know. There were sort of three or 0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:28.640 three or four bands there that were There was a 0:35:28.640 --> 0:35:32.000 band called the Far Cry that I think signed to Columbia. 0:35:32.200 --> 0:35:34.640 There was an amazing musician, Peter Ibers, who had a 0:35:34.640 --> 0:35:38.800 band called the Class Bead Game named ultimately with Peter Ivers. 0:35:38.800 --> 0:35:42.840 Would got killed downtown l A. Yes, I think beaten 0:35:42.840 --> 0:35:46.560 to death with a hammer. That's hard. Yeah, it is 0:35:46.640 --> 0:35:50.760 a girlfriend. Lucy Fisher and I are still close. Okay, 0:35:50.800 --> 0:35:53.560 so you got the equipment, you're playing, you're you're there 0:35:53.600 --> 0:35:58.880 on the heavy days and but this is always a hobby. Yeah, 0:35:59.040 --> 0:36:01.879 I mean I'm thinking I'm going to be At first 0:36:01.920 --> 0:36:04.960 I thought I wanted to be a scientist, and then 0:36:05.040 --> 0:36:07.200 I decided I wanted to be an architect, but then 0:36:07.239 --> 0:36:09.560 I didn't like the There was a new major at 0:36:09.560 --> 0:36:13.560 Harvard called Visual and Environmental Studies. I was starting my 0:36:13.680 --> 0:36:18.040 sophomore year, so I was the first class. But when 0:36:18.040 --> 0:36:20.279 I started going to the classes, I went, they don't 0:36:20.280 --> 0:36:24.719 have this together, and I don't. So fortunately I was stubborn, 0:36:25.880 --> 0:36:31.000 and uh I was. I took a design carse sophomore year. 0:36:32.040 --> 0:36:34.560 Now I hadn't done any art in years, but I 0:36:34.600 --> 0:36:36.480 had done it with my mother when I was growing up, 0:36:37.400 --> 0:36:40.279 and so I took this design carse. And then my 0:36:40.400 --> 0:36:44.080 junior year I really was did not like the guy 0:36:44.080 --> 0:36:47.040 who taught the next year of design. I used to 0:36:47.080 --> 0:36:49.200 have run ins with him in the shop. He was 0:36:49.239 --> 0:36:53.080 an anal compulsive, which was the opposite of me. So 0:36:54.000 --> 0:36:56.279 I just kind of didn't go to the class. And 0:36:56.360 --> 0:36:59.759 there was the most advanced class. So I went up 0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:03.319 heirs to the most advanced class and I said, can 0:37:03.320 --> 0:37:05.960 I take this class? And it was like this guy, 0:37:06.080 --> 0:37:11.680 this wonderful sculpture named Mirco Basadala, who recently. I was 0:37:11.719 --> 0:37:15.400 at the Rockefeller estate that's in Westchester, and I was 0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:19.080 looking at this sculpture and I'm going, this looks familiar, 0:37:19.120 --> 0:37:21.480 and it was Mirco and there was a he had 0:37:21.520 --> 0:37:26.480 a new assistant named Paul Rotterdam, and I go, can 0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:29.120 I take this class? I go, well, there's only five 0:37:29.160 --> 0:37:30.880 people taking you. What do you think? Sure you can 0:37:30.960 --> 0:37:35.560 take it. And so I had the waging experiences that 0:37:35.880 --> 0:37:40.160 I had six hours a week with two brilliant, if 0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:43.960 not genius professors, and there was one other girl and 0:37:44.080 --> 0:37:45.920 me were the only two people in the class that 0:37:45.960 --> 0:37:50.920 really worked hard. So we had like a personal apprenticeship 0:37:51.520 --> 0:37:55.440 with these people. Mirco passed away halfway through the year, 0:37:55.600 --> 0:37:59.040 and then Paul took over, and then Paul became my mentor. 0:37:59.080 --> 0:38:02.760 He I took independent on studies with him, and then 0:38:02.800 --> 0:38:06.080 he became my thesis advisor. Eventually I moved to New 0:38:06.160 --> 0:38:08.400 York and built his loft with him. I hung his 0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:12.040 shows at Susan called well Um. I had a one 0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:15.640 man show at the Carpenter Center Um of my sculptures 0:38:15.640 --> 0:38:21.080 and paintings. But the modern levers played at SO really 0:38:21.200 --> 0:38:23.400 changed my whole life. But it was like that decision 0:38:23.440 --> 0:38:25.320 of like, oh, I'm not going to go to that class. 0:38:25.360 --> 0:38:28.520 I can't standard. I did a number of things in 0:38:28.560 --> 0:38:30.680 college that I when I look back on, it was 0:38:30.760 --> 0:38:33.080 like I can't believe that I sort of had the 0:38:33.120 --> 0:38:34.719 balls to do that. But I just went up and 0:38:35.080 --> 0:38:38.839 this is what I want and people went Nobody else 0:38:38.920 --> 0:38:46.120 asks Okay, So anyway other than the academics, uh, what 0:38:46.320 --> 0:38:50.240 was the social situation? Into what degree did that change? 0:38:50.280 --> 0:38:53.439 You would Harvard lives. Well, there was the unique time 0:38:53.480 --> 0:38:57.719 at Harvard where unlike if you watch the social network, 0:38:58.320 --> 0:39:02.120 all of the sort of fine old clubs that you 0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:04.000 know in the social network that people are trying to 0:39:04.040 --> 0:39:09.040 get into, people were identifying with sort of the war 0:39:09.120 --> 0:39:13.080 in Vietnam soldiers and the working class. And there were 0:39:13.080 --> 0:39:14.439 a lot you know, there are a lot of self 0:39:14.480 --> 0:39:18.880 identified communists. There was the Progressive Labor Party. I was hiding, 0:39:19.320 --> 0:39:23.440 you knew the situation? Is there one more? Do I believe? 0:39:23.640 --> 0:39:30.360 The situationists? French revolutionary French revolutionary Malcolm McClaren was incredibly 0:39:30.680 --> 0:39:33.680 influenced by them. So they came over and they were 0:39:33.719 --> 0:39:36.399 disrupting classes. And I will tell us a little about 0:39:36.400 --> 0:39:39.960 who they are what they're about. So they believed that 0:39:40.440 --> 0:39:43.480 the revolution was not about the workers student alliance, but 0:39:43.520 --> 0:39:49.279 it was about defining the the places in the culture 0:39:49.280 --> 0:39:56.080 where the uh interests of the general society we're being 0:39:56.120 --> 0:40:00.759 manipulated by we'll say, the ruling class. And so they 0:40:00.760 --> 0:40:07.000 would create uh sort of events that would elucidate this. 0:40:07.239 --> 0:40:09.319 There's one of the main writers is a guy named 0:40:09.360 --> 0:40:13.160 gud Board. Actually, many of the people that sort of 0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:21.879 ended up taking over France began as situationists, and as 0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:26.120 I said, and Malcolm was very influenced by so when 0:40:26.120 --> 0:40:28.279 he did sex and all of that, that really grew 0:40:28.280 --> 0:40:31.439 out of the situation is thinking. So they came over. 0:40:31.840 --> 0:40:33.640 Some of them were down at Columbia, some of them 0:40:33.680 --> 0:40:37.319 came from France, and they were in our in our 0:40:37.840 --> 0:40:40.080 living in my room, and I was disrupting classes with 0:40:40.160 --> 0:40:44.440 them and things like that. Um, and they kind of 0:40:44.480 --> 0:40:48.080 they also introduced me to the to the psychiatrists, Wilhelm Reich, 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:52.880 you know him, Yeah, yeah, so I was and I 0:40:52.920 --> 0:40:57.640 found him really fascinating and I wrote a lot of 0:40:57.680 --> 0:41:00.279 papers about him. But let me do this day. Of course, 0:41:00.280 --> 0:41:03.480 you know, roll thing comes out of him. Arthur Jane 0:41:03.680 --> 0:41:06.120 comes off of him, all of this other stuff we 0:41:06.280 --> 0:41:09.880 started by Reich, and of course Rich is amazing. The 0:41:09.880 --> 0:41:12.080 they took his books out of the library at Congress 0:41:12.080 --> 0:41:14.520 and burned them. They put him in jail. I mean, 0:41:15.160 --> 0:41:18.719 he's an amazing figure. So he they and they also 0:41:18.840 --> 0:41:21.160 kind of believed in free love. But it was basically 0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:25.319 the guys in the group wanted to hook up with 0:41:25.360 --> 0:41:29.080 our girlfriends, and the girls in the group weren't that 0:41:29.360 --> 0:41:31.360 We're willing to hook up with us, but they weren't 0:41:31.400 --> 0:41:36.080 all that attractive. And I remembered there was this time, 0:41:36.840 --> 0:41:41.040 you know, I had gotten into this thing about Okay, 0:41:42.920 --> 0:41:47.759 I'm suspicious of this. So am I suspicious of this 0:41:48.000 --> 0:41:50.880 because of the way I was raised in my training, 0:41:52.160 --> 0:41:54.480 or do I have an intuition that this is bullshit? 0:41:55.160 --> 0:42:00.920 And how do I distinguish between those two uh trains 0:42:00.920 --> 0:42:04.120 of thought? And I remember this girl coming up and 0:42:04.239 --> 0:42:05.680 sitting next to me, and she goes, so, what do 0:42:05.680 --> 0:42:09.279 you think about what we're saying? And I said, I'm 0:42:09.280 --> 0:42:11.839 gonna trust my intuition, and I said, I think you're 0:42:11.840 --> 0:42:17.520 completely full of ship. But it was an amazing time. 0:42:17.680 --> 0:42:22.320 It was Harvard was unlike it was at any other time. 0:42:23.200 --> 0:42:25.480 It was not all about just being rich. The rich 0:42:25.520 --> 0:42:28.719 people kind of hid that they were rich, and and 0:42:28.880 --> 0:42:32.440 to a degree, the working class was ascended totally unique. 0:42:33.080 --> 0:42:35.479 You know, I was invited to enjoying a final club 0:42:35.480 --> 0:42:38.480 and oh, I don't want to do that, so I know. 0:42:38.520 --> 0:42:40.759 So it's like, you know what, it's funny. I remember 0:42:40.840 --> 0:42:43.400 being counted go to a football game. You can't go 0:42:43.480 --> 0:42:47.400 to the football game. Same thing. So you said, you 0:42:47.480 --> 0:42:49.719 mentioned right and jan Off and all these people. What's 0:42:49.719 --> 0:42:53.880 your experience with therapy if any. I've never done it. 0:42:54.000 --> 0:42:55.680 I've always thought that I'd like to do it because 0:42:55.719 --> 0:42:57.919 I think it's sort of would be fascinating. I've read 0:42:58.040 --> 0:43:03.000 enough about psychiatry and stuff like that. It um. I 0:43:03.000 --> 0:43:09.040 think the cognitive uh c G I is very effective 0:43:09.200 --> 0:43:12.520 for changing your behavior, but it doesn't really get at 0:43:13.280 --> 0:43:19.680 maybe why you have certain phobias or things like that. 0:43:20.440 --> 0:43:22.839 You know. I thought that Ardi Lang was really fascinating 0:43:22.840 --> 0:43:25.120 because he thought the schizophrenia was part of a healing 0:43:25.160 --> 0:43:28.760 process and stuff like that. I've had all these amazing 0:43:28.800 --> 0:43:32.960 things where I meet psychologists or new psychiatrists and I 0:43:32.960 --> 0:43:36.200 bring up these authors and they've never heard of any 0:43:36.239 --> 0:43:39.320 of them. I really, what are they teaching you in college, 0:43:39.840 --> 0:43:42.800 It's like, how could you not know who Adler is 0:43:42.920 --> 0:43:45.400 or who Right is or you know, I know, you 0:43:45.480 --> 0:43:48.200 know Freud is. And the same thing is like they 0:43:48.200 --> 0:43:50.520 don't know who Irban Goffman, sort of the inventor of 0:43:50.560 --> 0:43:55.759 group psychology. It's like, what what are they teaching? Are 0:43:55.800 --> 0:43:59.920 you that well adjusted that you don't need any therapy? 0:44:00.360 --> 0:44:03.239 I think the therapy would be an exploration and it 0:44:03.280 --> 0:44:06.560 would probably make me well more well adjusted. But I 0:44:06.600 --> 0:44:09.080 think that I'm happy and I've found my ways to 0:44:11.360 --> 0:44:14.799 I don't know, confront whatever issues I think I need 0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:16.800 to confront, But I think they'd have probably been helpful, 0:44:16.840 --> 0:44:22.080 but to a degree. Really doing therapy takes time, like 0:44:22.120 --> 0:44:24.920 a lot of time, and I knew, you know, and 0:44:24.960 --> 0:44:27.359 I also see that people kind of get addicted to it. 0:44:28.000 --> 0:44:31.200 There was a philosophy professor who was the leading expert 0:44:31.360 --> 0:44:35.600 on Wittgenstein, who was head of the philosophy department at Harvard. 0:44:36.040 --> 0:44:38.560 It also happened to be gay, and he and I 0:44:38.600 --> 0:44:43.200 became really good friends, and you know, he would go like, well, 0:44:43.360 --> 0:44:45.759 Fritz Pearls was my psychiatrist for a long time. The 0:44:45.800 --> 0:44:49.239 guy started sling, But then I thought I needed something more, 0:44:49.280 --> 0:44:51.719 so I switched to a Freudian and I'm like, this 0:44:51.800 --> 0:44:55.480 is an addiction. It's like a lifelong addiction of trying 0:44:55.520 --> 0:45:00.839 to examine your problems all the time. So I'm uh, 0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:03.000 I think it has a real place. You read the 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:06.719 case studies where they do fantastic things. I think that 0:45:06.760 --> 0:45:09.640 it can be very very useful, and I think that 0:45:09.760 --> 0:45:12.160 probably everybody could learn a lot from it. But I 0:45:12.160 --> 0:45:15.160 think you could. I think you can learn awful lot 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:17.960 by self examination when you read the books and thinking 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:22.960 about what they're talking about. Mark's very interesting because he 0:45:23.120 --> 0:45:26.880 believes that he was the first one to make a 0:45:26.880 --> 0:45:32.160 connection between what you're thinking and how you hold your 0:45:32.200 --> 0:45:39.880 body and your musculature. He told one, um uh, you 0:45:39.920 --> 0:45:43.399 know one is what he called character armor, and then 0:45:43.400 --> 0:45:46.759 he called it body armor. And so have you ever 0:45:46.760 --> 0:45:49.040 had the thing where you have anxiety and your and 0:45:49.080 --> 0:45:50.960 you kind of feel in your chest. It's almost like 0:45:51.000 --> 0:45:54.120 there's a band around your chest when you're feeling well, 0:45:54.160 --> 0:45:59.160 if you make yourself gag, it'll go away. And so 0:45:59.239 --> 0:46:05.960 he had all these methodologies to using uh uh, what 0:46:06.080 --> 0:46:09.239 are the um reflexes as a way is what he 0:46:09.320 --> 0:46:12.320 called dissolving the energy that was in the body armor, 0:46:12.800 --> 0:46:19.120 and then it would help dissolve the psychological characterological construct 0:46:19.160 --> 0:46:22.719 that was connected to that body armor. We of course 0:46:22.760 --> 0:46:28.120 believed that the orgasm was the most important, so he 0:46:28.200 --> 0:46:32.239 would watch people having sex and it's like he really 0:46:32.239 --> 0:46:34.480 went off. And I think he also believed in that 0:46:34.680 --> 0:46:37.600 oregon and energy within the atmosphere. It's a little bit 0:46:37.640 --> 0:46:42.359 like Telly Shardon and the idea of there being some 0:46:42.440 --> 0:46:45.680 kind of life force, which of course has gone out 0:46:45.680 --> 0:46:49.120 of favor and science. But you know, maybe we just 0:46:49.160 --> 0:46:51.879 haven't developed the tool to be able to sense it. 0:46:52.280 --> 0:46:56.600 I mean, they've never really explained acupuncture adequately, you know, 0:46:56.680 --> 0:46:59.720 and yet there's you know, there's empirical evidence that it works. 0:47:00.480 --> 0:47:04.160 So he was, you know, he in any ways was 0:47:05.120 --> 0:47:08.960 mimicking what a lot of Eastern things do, but saying 0:47:08.960 --> 0:47:12.759 it within a Western frame of mind. And of course 0:47:12.760 --> 0:47:15.520 he was hunted down by Hitler because he was associated 0:47:15.560 --> 0:47:20.000 with the Socialists and setting up camps and stuff like 0:47:20.040 --> 0:47:22.800 that about hygiene and health. And he went to Norway 0:47:22.880 --> 0:47:25.400 first and then came the United States and and he 0:47:25.480 --> 0:47:28.600 was up at Rangely Lakes up in uh in Maine. 0:47:29.400 --> 0:47:32.840 He thought he could change the weather with Yeah. He 0:47:33.080 --> 0:47:36.200 nicknamed this stuff called orgon energy and that you could 0:47:36.239 --> 0:47:42.240 collect it or or disperse it. And William Burrows wrote 0:47:42.280 --> 0:47:45.960 this big and rolling stone about going to visit Paul 0:47:46.080 --> 0:47:50.720 Bowles and sitting in an orgon box. So I met Paul. 0:47:50.800 --> 0:47:53.920 I met William Burrows one night with Patti Smith was 0:47:53.920 --> 0:47:55.920 there talking and of course they're talking about poetry. But 0:47:55.960 --> 0:47:57.400 of course when I go out to and go like, 0:47:57.920 --> 0:48:00.279 can you tell me about the Oregon box with Paul Ball, 0:48:00.440 --> 0:48:02.000 that's what I really want to know about it, and 0:48:02.040 --> 0:48:04.640 he goes, there was something there. There was definitely something there, 0:48:04.719 --> 0:48:15.120 So that's what I know about it. Staying on this 0:48:15.280 --> 0:48:19.560 same tip to a degree, you know, being a musician 0:48:19.800 --> 0:48:23.239 is very different. I'll just use architecture because you went 0:48:23.280 --> 0:48:27.040 down that path to a degree, and there's a lot 0:48:27.120 --> 0:48:30.279 of unique things. You know, a lot of musicians take 0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:33.919 drugs to come down from the gig. Uh, you get 0:48:33.960 --> 0:48:37.359 the incredible adrenaline hit that other people are unaware of 0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:42.120 band's break up. How did you cope with all this tumultuousness? 0:48:43.280 --> 0:48:47.360 Probably the sort of disintegration on the modern levelage was 0:48:47.400 --> 0:48:51.040 pretty hard. First of all, I had put my own 0:48:51.080 --> 0:48:55.280 money into helping the band survive. So I was really 0:48:55.360 --> 0:48:58.440 broke when it happened, and I knew the potential of 0:48:58.480 --> 0:49:02.640 what we could have done, and it was sad. It 0:49:02.760 --> 0:49:06.640 was just really sad. And it uh. I went back 0:49:06.640 --> 0:49:12.840 to Cambridge and I actually taught at Harvard. Paul Rotterdam 0:49:12.880 --> 0:49:15.359 called me up and said, my teaching assistant quit, can 0:49:15.400 --> 0:49:18.800 you do it? Is it sure? Which was really interesting 0:49:18.840 --> 0:49:21.279 because the student body had changed. They were all about 0:49:21.280 --> 0:49:23.840 getting good grades now instead of about what they were learning. 0:49:24.320 --> 0:49:26.040 When I was in college, people go, I don't care 0:49:26.080 --> 0:49:27.440 what great I got. I want to know what I 0:49:27.520 --> 0:49:30.520 want to learn stuff and the and the and the 0:49:30.520 --> 0:49:33.960 professors found that inspiring. Suddenly the professors were far more 0:49:34.040 --> 0:49:37.640 radical than the students. I would have all these like students, 0:49:37.760 --> 0:49:40.200 especially like you know, people from the law school were 0:49:40.239 --> 0:49:42.480 taking this course and they were trying to get me 0:49:42.520 --> 0:49:46.000 to do their project for them. It's like, what is 0:49:46.040 --> 0:49:48.000 that why you're taking the classes for me to do it? 0:49:48.000 --> 0:49:50.560 It's for you to do it. And then I worked 0:49:50.560 --> 0:49:56.160 for h software development company called Cambridge Computer. But now 0:49:56.200 --> 0:49:59.879 this is the computers before Apple and Microsoft or any 0:50:00.040 --> 0:50:03.800 these companies existed. We were working on IBM main frames. 0:50:03.880 --> 0:50:08.640 And the deck PDP eight and PDP eleven. This company 0:50:08.680 --> 0:50:12.600 could have been Microsoft. It wrote the operating systems, they 0:50:12.640 --> 0:50:16.000 wrote the manuals. They did this. I didn't do too 0:50:16.080 --> 0:50:18.839 much programming. I was trying to be a salesman during 0:50:18.920 --> 0:50:22.279 a that they had a system for school systems that 0:50:22.360 --> 0:50:25.560 I was remarkably unsuccessful at selling. But there was a 0:50:25.640 --> 0:50:29.560 recession in the early seventies, and so getting you know, 0:50:29.960 --> 0:50:33.080 school boards to spend money it was. It was difficult. 0:50:33.239 --> 0:50:37.120 But and there was a chess master that was there. 0:50:37.120 --> 0:50:40.440 They could play twenty of us blindfolded and beat us 0:50:40.480 --> 0:50:43.560 all but everybody was obsessed by chess. So I got 0:50:43.640 --> 0:50:48.719 that's the best I ever was at chess, and that 0:50:48.840 --> 0:50:51.800 that chess bachelor went on to become the world backgammon champion. 0:50:53.280 --> 0:50:55.360 The other thing that was really interesting is that a 0:50:55.400 --> 0:50:59.480 lot of the people in this head far more wild 0:50:59.560 --> 0:51:01.920 and act of sex lives than most of the musicians 0:51:01.960 --> 0:51:06.120 I knew. So that was it was really fascinating. But 0:51:06.160 --> 0:51:09.080 I also learned that when they went home, they read, 0:51:09.160 --> 0:51:11.960 they read manuals, and when I home, I listened to music. 0:51:12.400 --> 0:51:15.400 So I went, I don't think this is my new career. 0:51:15.800 --> 0:51:17.719 I think music is really what I want to do. 0:51:18.360 --> 0:51:20.400 I applied to architecture school and then I put it 0:51:20.400 --> 0:51:23.839 off for a year because I, um, there's an artist 0:51:23.960 --> 0:51:28.680 named Elliott Murphy who came up around the time, all right, 0:51:28.760 --> 0:51:30.759 So I made night Lights with him and went on 0:51:30.800 --> 0:51:34.240 tour with him. I also produced Let's Start from the beginning. 0:51:34.239 --> 0:51:36.359 Elliott was a New York guy. How did you know? 0:51:36.440 --> 0:51:40.080 Elliott Murphy? He knew of the modern Lovers, and so 0:51:40.160 --> 0:51:41.879 when he came up to Cambridge, I think he got 0:51:41.880 --> 0:51:45.680 in touch with us, and then Ernie and I played 0:51:45.680 --> 0:51:50.239 with him, and then eventually I produced that record Milwaukee 0:51:50.440 --> 0:51:54.080 for him, and I just saw him in Paris when 0:51:54.120 --> 0:51:57.960 I was there in November. We're still friends and so 0:51:58.000 --> 0:52:02.640 that's what I did around the computer company, and eventually 0:52:02.640 --> 0:52:05.560 I said, like, I've got to start architecture school before 0:52:07.120 --> 0:52:09.960 as long as I can. And then I started. I 0:52:10.000 --> 0:52:12.480 know that Chris talked about this. It was right as 0:52:12.520 --> 0:52:15.200 I met the Talking Hits. I was starting that. So 0:52:15.320 --> 0:52:17.719 I they were very nice to me that they let 0:52:17.719 --> 0:52:20.719 me finish one semester. I said, my parents will kill 0:52:20.760 --> 0:52:24.000 me if I don't at least finish the semester so 0:52:24.080 --> 0:52:27.719 that I can go back. If I have to just 0:52:27.920 --> 0:52:31.799 to go back to chapter. It's history with the Modern Lovers. Now, 0:52:31.840 --> 0:52:33.960 you went from high school to college, you sold all 0:52:33.960 --> 0:52:37.399 your stuff. When you had that line of demarcation, did 0:52:37.400 --> 0:52:39.600 you say, no, there's a future, you say, I'm not 0:52:39.680 --> 0:52:44.200 playing music. I'm out. I just thought that I'm an amateur. 0:52:44.520 --> 0:52:48.000 There's professionals doing this. I'm a good student. I'm gonna 0:52:48.040 --> 0:52:51.040 do something else. And then I saw that other people. 0:52:51.200 --> 0:52:52.840 But I was just as good as the other people 0:52:52.840 --> 0:52:55.520 that were around me. And when I met Jonathan, I said, 0:52:56.440 --> 0:52:59.320 we're as legitimate as any band in the world. And frankly, 0:52:59.360 --> 0:53:02.640 I hate them music that's coming out now, like I 0:53:02.680 --> 0:53:05.320 don't know Emerson, Lincoln Palmer and yes, and it was 0:53:05.400 --> 0:53:08.799 just you know, as I call it. And I think 0:53:08.840 --> 0:53:12.240 it was sort of like the mannerism is the classical painting, 0:53:12.960 --> 0:53:19.919 that it was more about grandios technique rather than great 0:53:19.960 --> 0:53:22.799 songs and things like that. And so John, you know, 0:53:22.880 --> 0:53:25.719 I actually think that the Modern Lovers are sort of 0:53:25.760 --> 0:53:29.359 the beginning of punk music. I mean, we were, of 0:53:29.400 --> 0:53:35.160 course exceptionally influenced by Developt Underground and the Stooges, but 0:53:35.280 --> 0:53:38.360 those they don't seem exactly punk to me. But to me, 0:53:38.719 --> 0:53:43.759 the definition of punk music is I have something to say, 0:53:44.440 --> 0:53:47.560 and no matter how good or bad a musician I am, 0:53:47.600 --> 0:53:49.840 I will find a means to express what I have 0:53:49.960 --> 0:53:53.680 to say. And and because I believe it so much, 0:53:53.719 --> 0:53:56.319 and I will say it was such passion, I'll get 0:53:56.360 --> 0:53:59.240 across to an audience. And I think the Modern Lovers 0:53:59.239 --> 0:54:03.839 were the beginning of that ethos, short and sweet ideas, 0:54:04.840 --> 0:54:09.840 and of course Jonathan very much. You know, when everybody 0:54:09.880 --> 0:54:12.160 was doing drugs, he writes a song called I'm Straight 0:54:12.920 --> 0:54:16.799 and so we were being the opposite. Well that was 0:54:16.840 --> 0:54:19.480 a big thing, you know, in the sixties and seventies. 0:54:19.920 --> 0:54:24.800 But just to get the timeline right, how long after 0:54:25.760 --> 0:54:29.640 the Modern Lovers break up do you actually start architecture school. 0:54:30.520 --> 0:54:37.880 I started architecture school in September, and the broader Lovers 0:54:37.920 --> 0:54:42.719 broke up, I believe in the spring of seventy. Okay, 0:54:42.800 --> 0:54:50.160 So how do you ultimately uh connect with the talking gets. 0:54:50.480 --> 0:54:53.360 It's as Chris said, he called me up because he 0:54:53.480 --> 0:54:56.120 got the number through Ernie Books and the Showyer family, 0:54:56.200 --> 0:54:59.680 who I did now up in Maine. He had a 0:54:59.760 --> 0:55:04.800 j S house to Ernie's family's house. Also Steve Paul 0:55:05.280 --> 0:55:08.560 because Steve Paul and Danny Fields were wanted to manage 0:55:08.600 --> 0:55:14.479 the Modern Lovers. Steve Paul had said to the talking 0:55:14.520 --> 0:55:17.279 you had to leasy told me that I would be 0:55:17.280 --> 0:55:19.640 a good choice because they knew because he knew that 0:55:19.680 --> 0:55:22.279 I paid it as well. So I think that we 0:55:22.480 --> 0:55:23.719 I think there were this like this would be a 0:55:23.760 --> 0:55:27.439 good time. It's a music story though, So the first 0:55:27.480 --> 0:55:30.160 time I went down to play with them, like I said, 0:55:30.160 --> 0:55:32.560 I had no money. I mean really I was that. 0:55:33.000 --> 0:55:36.160 I ended up with Ernie moving a family to New 0:55:36.200 --> 0:55:39.600 York and the band van and when we packed the 0:55:39.680 --> 0:55:44.000 van there was no room for my oregan. So I 0:55:44.080 --> 0:55:46.439 drove to New York with a guitar and I walked 0:55:46.440 --> 0:55:51.840 into the the Christentina Davis Loft on Christie Street with 0:55:51.960 --> 0:55:54.600 the guitar. They said, we thought you were a keyboard player. 0:55:55.680 --> 0:55:58.360 I said, well I am, but I played guitar too, 0:55:58.440 --> 0:56:00.840 and there wasn't any room for the keyboard. So I 0:56:00.880 --> 0:56:04.400 brought a guitar. But let's display some music. And we 0:56:04.400 --> 0:56:06.919 started to play some music and it sounded great from 0:56:06.920 --> 0:56:10.240 the moment we started praying. So then I came back 0:56:10.600 --> 0:56:13.040 with the keyboard and I did a show at the 0:56:13.040 --> 0:56:15.760 Lower Manhattan Ocean Club. They also had a horn player 0:56:16.520 --> 0:56:19.400 play with them, and then we went out to New Jersey. 0:56:19.440 --> 0:56:21.920 We played that a private party that is sort of 0:56:21.960 --> 0:56:26.040 immortalized in the pictures on the first album of the 0:56:26.120 --> 0:56:29.480 name of this band is Talking Heads or I'm kind 0:56:29.480 --> 0:56:31.239 of standing off at the side, because that was the 0:56:31.280 --> 0:56:35.719 second time I played with them, And then they came 0:56:35.800 --> 0:56:38.319 up to Cambridge and I I took a week off 0:56:38.320 --> 0:56:41.760 from architecture school and played the Ratskeller in Boston, Lupo's 0:56:41.800 --> 0:56:49.319 Heartbreak Saloon and found in uh in u Ah Providence 0:56:49.360 --> 0:56:52.759 some places at a Clark University. And I think at 0:56:52.760 --> 0:56:54.279 that point, AM going like, this is too good. I'm 0:56:54.280 --> 0:56:57.480 going to do it. I had I had forgotten what 0:56:57.600 --> 0:56:59.960 Chris said about the thing that I wanted to make 0:57:00.000 --> 0:57:02.759 sure they got a record deal, and I think that 0:57:02.760 --> 0:57:05.680 that's probably true. I think that I was like, I 0:57:05.719 --> 0:57:07.959 don't want to spend two years chasing a record deal. 0:57:09.000 --> 0:57:11.080 I want to like get to it and make a record, 0:57:11.120 --> 0:57:13.640 because I had seen what happened with the modern lovers 0:57:13.719 --> 0:57:16.040 waiting around for the right deal and stuff like that. 0:57:16.840 --> 0:57:21.760 So but I was I was forever grateful that they rated. 0:57:21.920 --> 0:57:25.520 I joined in January seven, we immediately started getting ready 0:57:25.560 --> 0:57:28.160 to make the first album, and we did went on 0:57:28.160 --> 0:57:31.360 that glorious tour that Chris has talked avented so well 0:57:31.400 --> 0:57:34.920 in his book Opening for the Ramans, which frankly was 0:57:34.960 --> 0:57:37.560 one of the most fun tours I've ever been on, 0:57:38.480 --> 0:57:44.400 because the the audiences in Europe knew about the Ramans 0:57:44.440 --> 0:57:49.360 and the Talking Hits as much from fanzines and articles 0:57:49.400 --> 0:57:53.960 and magazines as from hearing any music. So they go, like, 0:57:54.160 --> 0:57:55.919 we want to go see what's happening in New York 0:57:56.040 --> 0:57:58.640 right now, So they were open minded to seeing the 0:57:58.680 --> 0:58:02.400 Talking Hits with the Mounds, and we would like finish 0:58:02.440 --> 0:58:06.800 our set and usually walk to the back and like 0:58:06.920 --> 0:58:08.480 all of our fans would come up and said, like, 0:58:08.520 --> 0:58:10.880 do you want to go out? And the great thing 0:58:10.920 --> 0:58:14.240 about Talking Hits fans is usually there were people that 0:58:14.320 --> 0:58:16.400 you were very perfectly happy to hang out with. They 0:58:16.440 --> 0:58:20.000 were smart, they were intellectuals, and they had something to 0:58:20.280 --> 0:58:22.640 teach you and talk to you about. So we'd go 0:58:22.720 --> 0:58:24.720 out with them, go all over the towns with them, 0:58:24.800 --> 0:58:27.120 come back, get on the bus the next day with 0:58:27.200 --> 0:58:30.760 the Ramond to go on to the next place. Tina 0:58:30.800 --> 0:58:33.520 actually has the same story as me, but we were 0:58:33.600 --> 0:58:35.919 driving by Stonehenge and I went up to the bus 0:58:36.040 --> 0:58:37.600 drivers that we have to stop. I want to go 0:58:37.680 --> 0:58:42.040 see Stonehead and Johnny Ramone goes, what we're stopping to 0:58:42.120 --> 0:58:49.760 go see a bunch of rocks? But oh god it 0:58:49.880 --> 0:58:53.240 was and the weather was glorious. It was right when 0:58:54.440 --> 0:58:57.720 when h the sex pistols did God save the Queen 0:58:57.840 --> 0:58:59.840 into that thing when they were coming down the tem 0:59:01.200 --> 0:59:03.520 We had this party that they all came to and Johnny, 0:59:04.120 --> 0:59:06.680 Johnny Rotten was a big fan of Roadrunner, you know, 0:59:06.760 --> 0:59:09.160 of course they they did a cover of road Runner. 0:59:10.160 --> 0:59:14.840 It was a fantastic time. Now, was Gary ker First 0:59:15.040 --> 0:59:17.000 already the manager when you came? Or how did you 0:59:17.040 --> 0:59:21.080 get Gary Kurfers? Garry Kurfirst came about a year later, 0:59:22.000 --> 0:59:28.200 and he having gone through not having a manager in 0:59:28.240 --> 0:59:32.160 the modern Lovers, I was very adamant in saying we 0:59:32.360 --> 0:59:35.600 really have to have a manager. Christine and David were 0:59:35.680 --> 0:59:38.840 more business like and more let's say, unified and how 0:59:38.920 --> 0:59:40.400 they thought about it than we had been in the 0:59:40.480 --> 0:59:42.760 Modern Lovers, So they could have gone further, and they 0:59:42.800 --> 0:59:46.080 had done a great job up until then. But there 0:59:46.120 --> 0:59:48.760 comes a time where you're away and things are happening, 0:59:50.120 --> 0:59:53.880 and Ken Kushnik, who worked at Sire Records, introduced us 0:59:53.920 --> 1:00:00.200 to Gary. And Gary had gone through a quite an 1:00:00.320 --> 1:00:04.200 adventure because he had gotten an underactive thyroid. He had 1:00:04.240 --> 1:00:06.919 been the manager of Mountain and a promoter. I don't 1:00:06.960 --> 1:00:08.400 know if you know much about it. Yeah, I know this, 1:00:08.520 --> 1:00:11.400 and I knew Gary. Yeah, so anyway, you know all 1:00:11.440 --> 1:00:13.720 of this. But so by the time he took us on, 1:00:14.320 --> 1:00:15.760 it's not like he had a lot of other acts. 1:00:15.800 --> 1:00:18.840 He had us and he loved coming on tour with 1:00:18.960 --> 1:00:21.720 us and ran his business from the road with us. 1:00:22.840 --> 1:00:26.560 And as Chris said, Gary would explore the towns as 1:00:26.640 --> 1:00:29.120 we went out, and he sort of put together a 1:00:29.240 --> 1:00:34.200 tour that was half top forty clubs and half this 1:00:34.400 --> 1:00:38.000 and half that. I became the road manager. Tina had 1:00:38.080 --> 1:00:42.040 been at and I remember we were playing actually in Milwaukee, 1:00:42.720 --> 1:00:45.840 and he had made a deal like three guarantee, but 1:00:45.960 --> 1:00:50.080 we get of the house after you make five and 1:00:50.120 --> 1:00:51.919 the pro boer because I'm not gonna play you five 1:00:52.000 --> 1:00:55.320 thousand dollars. I said, well, let me call Gary. Carry 1:00:55.360 --> 1:00:58.000 gets out the phone. He goes, look, I'm a gambler, 1:00:58.800 --> 1:01:02.760 but when I win, I collect. And if you ever 1:01:03.080 --> 1:01:05.360 want to have any band ever play there again, you're 1:01:05.400 --> 1:01:08.479 gonna pay, so the guy paid me. It was great, 1:01:09.480 --> 1:01:13.640 It was It was an adventure. I mean because of Gary, 1:01:14.360 --> 1:01:19.360 we built our name through touring to a degree that 1:01:19.760 --> 1:01:22.120 another manager we had thought about her I had thought 1:01:22.120 --> 1:01:24.520 about was Ed Bicknell, who had been our agent in 1:01:25.600 --> 1:01:28.920 London and he went on to become Dire Straitsman manager, 1:01:29.880 --> 1:01:31.440 and he would we would have been much more of 1:01:31.520 --> 1:01:35.040 a European act and maybe South America. You know, he 1:01:35.600 --> 1:01:39.120 took a different course, more publicity. So it's interesting to 1:01:39.160 --> 1:01:42.560 think about those choices. But Gary was a master of 1:01:42.640 --> 1:01:46.160 the road and we didn't mind working. Really, the Ramans 1:01:46.200 --> 1:01:49.040 on Us were the only bands that really worked that 1:01:49.280 --> 1:01:54.840 hard on the road that came out of Was it depressing, 1:01:54.960 --> 1:01:56.560 I mean, you're on the way up, but you've got 1:01:56.680 --> 1:01:58.959 to play a lot of places. At first you would 1:01:59.000 --> 1:02:02.240 think we're audience as are not into you, or that 1:02:02.400 --> 1:02:05.440 not many people show up or was that not your experience. 1:02:08.280 --> 1:02:11.200 It was all an adventure, so it was fine. You know, 1:02:12.120 --> 1:02:14.640 we were you know, we were driving around a station wagon. 1:02:15.480 --> 1:02:20.960 I'm just playing. Gary had found this guy named Gary 1:02:21.040 --> 1:02:26.080 Schofield who had a van and who was a sound mixer. 1:02:28.000 --> 1:02:30.240 The way he got the van is he had a 1:02:30.360 --> 1:02:35.920 friend who got stopped by the Connecticut State Police who 1:02:36.040 --> 1:02:38.120 thought he was a danger and shot him in the head. 1:02:40.000 --> 1:02:43.240 And the van sat in the parents garage for about 1:02:43.320 --> 1:02:46.480 five years and Gary finally went over and go like, 1:02:46.640 --> 1:02:48.760 are you gonna do anything with that van? And they 1:02:48.840 --> 1:02:53.040 went just take it away. So he had this free van. 1:02:53.360 --> 1:02:57.000 So Gary ma had a deal with him and he 1:02:57.160 --> 1:03:00.440 made much more money than us. So so I know, 1:03:00.520 --> 1:03:02.640 we we'd go out and like, you know, each of 1:03:02.720 --> 1:03:05.040 us is getting a grilled cheese and He'll goes, I'll 1:03:05.080 --> 1:03:09.360 have the prime rib and so we kind of hated him. 1:03:10.080 --> 1:03:14.760 But Garrett goes, he's too good a deal. You don't 1:03:14.800 --> 1:03:17.560 get it. He mixes you, he helps move the equipment, 1:03:18.200 --> 1:03:22.920 and he's got a van. It's an unbelievable deal. So okay, 1:03:23.040 --> 1:03:28.320 the first album, you know, looking through from an outsider's 1:03:28.400 --> 1:03:31.240 you point, it appears that you wanted to produce the 1:03:31.280 --> 1:03:34.480 record itself and they want a little insurance and got 1:03:34.560 --> 1:03:36.920 Tony Bon Jovie. You of course were in the power station. 1:03:36.960 --> 1:03:40.200 What went on there? Well, Chris and Tina and David 1:03:40.200 --> 1:03:42.280 had done a single with Tony Bon Jovi and they 1:03:42.400 --> 1:03:48.040 wanted something away from the I don't know the punk producers, 1:03:48.800 --> 1:03:52.680 and Tony was known for doing disco and horns and 1:03:52.800 --> 1:03:55.880 things like that. Tony brought in a guy named Lance 1:03:56.000 --> 1:03:58.880 Quinn who was sort of the musical part of the team. 1:04:00.120 --> 1:04:04.280 Tony didn't really get us all. I mean we The 1:04:04.480 --> 1:04:06.600 version he wanted to put a Psycho Killer on the 1:04:06.680 --> 1:04:10.560 album was the one that has cellos. But when we 1:04:10.680 --> 1:04:12.760 got back from the tour of London where we were 1:04:12.880 --> 1:04:16.160 finishing our shows with Psycho Killer, I kind of put 1:04:16.240 --> 1:04:18.440 my foot on and said like, no, we're going to 1:04:18.520 --> 1:04:22.040 do the electric version like we do. Uh, we've been 1:04:22.120 --> 1:04:25.560 doing live and that's what we did and that's what's 1:04:25.600 --> 1:04:30.000 on the album. So but Tony really knew a lot 1:04:30.040 --> 1:04:32.960 about sound. He was in the process of building the 1:04:33.080 --> 1:04:36.520 power station, so we never worked at the power station. 1:04:36.600 --> 1:04:38.720 We made it at a little studio called Sun Dragon, 1:04:38.800 --> 1:04:43.880 a sixteen track studio at Stadium was the engineer. We 1:04:44.080 --> 1:04:48.320 mixed it at Media Sound, where Tony was very involved. 1:04:49.200 --> 1:04:52.600 I just worked with Ed doing atmost mixes of talking hits. 1:04:53.400 --> 1:04:57.560 He still listens so loud it's like I have tonight 1:04:57.640 --> 1:05:00.920 as it was like, oh my god, dude, it was crazy, 1:05:01.080 --> 1:05:04.600 but it was fun. I just remixed all the Talking 1:05:04.680 --> 1:05:08.720 Hits albums for atmost in eight weeks this summer, which 1:05:08.840 --> 1:05:12.640 was Okay. Then let's just go sideways here for a second. 1:05:13.120 --> 1:05:16.600 What's your viewpoint on ATMOS. Well, I was a big 1:05:16.680 --> 1:05:20.120 fan of surround sound, and I did the five one mixes, 1:05:20.240 --> 1:05:23.200 so Eric thorn Gren and I did that. So I 1:05:23.400 --> 1:05:27.640 think that I think surround sound and ATMOS is a 1:05:27.800 --> 1:05:32.640 version of surround sound is great. I think that you 1:05:32.760 --> 1:05:36.040 are putting a computer in between your mix and the 1:05:36.120 --> 1:05:44.440 eventual playback, because the the computer is sort of sampling 1:05:44.480 --> 1:05:46.640 how many speakers do you have and what's the frequency 1:05:46.680 --> 1:05:50.960 of response, and then making the adjustments. Sometimes that can 1:05:51.040 --> 1:05:54.600 be a little bit weird. I also think that the headphones, 1:05:55.120 --> 1:05:57.840 they're not exactly that really don't give you the entire experience, 1:05:57.920 --> 1:06:01.200 but they're fun. They're fun to listen to, and I 1:06:01.320 --> 1:06:04.800 think that a great surrounds on mix is just fantastic. 1:06:05.720 --> 1:06:09.920 Um Our philosophy, you know, this is Eric thorn Gren 1:06:10.040 --> 1:06:13.840 in mine is not to tear the music apart so 1:06:14.000 --> 1:06:17.640 much that you feel like it's all in pieces, but 1:06:17.760 --> 1:06:20.320 to keep the coherence that you have in the stereo mix, 1:06:20.640 --> 1:06:23.760 but to enhance it. So I don't know if you've 1:06:23.800 --> 1:06:25.880 had the chance, but go on Apple Music and try 1:06:25.960 --> 1:06:30.000 listening to it or untitled see what you think. Okay, 1:06:30.400 --> 1:06:34.520 and you live through the quad experiments and all this 1:06:34.600 --> 1:06:37.640 other stuff. Do you think app moos is going to 1:06:37.680 --> 1:06:39.920 be a small thing or it's going to become the default? 1:06:40.680 --> 1:06:43.360 I think that ATMOS is the best chance because I 1:06:43.440 --> 1:06:45.760 think that Dolby and Apple are behind it, and those 1:06:45.800 --> 1:06:49.760 are two pretty powerful companies, particularly Apple. Apple is the 1:06:49.760 --> 1:06:54.000 world's largest corporation, and so that's a that's a much 1:06:54.040 --> 1:06:57.240 better starting place than where we were before. Sony has 1:06:57.360 --> 1:07:00.160 you know, this competitive system, But I don't think I 1:07:00.160 --> 1:07:03.240 don't think it's going to be the beta max phs. 1:07:03.320 --> 1:07:06.600 I think ATMOS is going to be the default system. 1:07:07.040 --> 1:07:08.920 I think that all the cars will have it within 1:07:09.080 --> 1:07:13.240 five years. Already cars have it. I think that every 1:07:13.440 --> 1:07:17.320 a v amp that comes out, we'll have it, will 1:07:17.360 --> 1:07:22.040 be ATMOS ready. Now, are people gonna put in thirteen 1:07:22.080 --> 1:07:25.520 speakers all over their rooms? No, but they have these 1:07:25.600 --> 1:07:30.840 Atmos sound bars and stuff like that. There there's acceptable Okay, 1:07:31.440 --> 1:07:35.320 they're not you know, like everything you know, you've got 1:07:35.360 --> 1:07:38.720 audio file levels that's even better. Okay, so you just 1:07:38.880 --> 1:07:41.720 did all these ATMOS mixes. Let's say you're a band 1:07:41.800 --> 1:07:43.760 on the way up. How much time and money is 1:07:43.800 --> 1:07:46.240 it going to take to put on an atmost mix 1:07:46.280 --> 1:07:49.360 of that record? Well, I think that if every engineer 1:07:49.920 --> 1:07:55.680 understands ATMOS, that they can mix using stems so that 1:07:55.800 --> 1:07:57.560 they can sort of do them at the same time. 1:07:58.680 --> 1:08:01.000 But if you're going back to the reginal material, you've 1:08:01.000 --> 1:08:04.040 got to sort of start over. So I don't think 1:08:04.080 --> 1:08:07.320 it's all that much more expensive if you're using an 1:08:07.360 --> 1:08:10.080 engineer that's familiar with both, And I think the stereo 1:08:10.200 --> 1:08:14.320 mix will always be your basis, the basic thing that 1:08:14.400 --> 1:08:19.160 you're doing, and the utmost is sort of h a 1:08:19.960 --> 1:08:23.160 fun and exciting extra. I've always thought that cars are 1:08:23.240 --> 1:08:25.439 the ideal place for surround sound because you have you 1:08:25.520 --> 1:08:29.400 sit in the same place all the time. So you know, 1:08:30.320 --> 1:08:32.400 I think that we all take our cars. Now, don't 1:08:32.400 --> 1:08:35.320 you adjust the stereo to a little bit to the 1:08:35.360 --> 1:08:37.600 back and to the front. You sort of create a 1:08:37.640 --> 1:08:41.960 Fox surround set up in your car already, so this 1:08:42.160 --> 1:08:45.880 is just a little more defined. Um, I can play 1:08:45.960 --> 1:08:49.400 some of my five one mixes in my cars. The 1:08:49.479 --> 1:08:52.679 mix of burning down the house from the DVD audio, 1:08:53.360 --> 1:08:57.240 it sounds amazing in my car, so I I think 1:08:57.280 --> 1:08:59.880 that must will be great there just to be clear 1:09:00.080 --> 1:09:05.840 in your car stock stereo or aftermarket stereo stock. But 1:09:06.000 --> 1:09:08.600 I have. But I bought an RS seven, which is 1:09:08.640 --> 1:09:11.280 one of the greatest stereos ever made in a car, 1:09:12.479 --> 1:09:13.800 and that is one of the It's one of the 1:09:13.880 --> 1:09:16.679 reasons I bought that car. Friend of mine designed. Friend 1:09:16.720 --> 1:09:18.960 of mine design that makes a stereo for the RS 1:09:19.080 --> 1:09:22.760 of it. Panging Old and the tweeters were designed by 1:09:22.800 --> 1:09:24.679 a friend of mine who lives here and Merinn County, 1:09:24.920 --> 1:09:27.519 and he licensed them to be you know, they pop 1:09:27.640 --> 1:09:30.200 up out of the dashboard and then they go down 1:09:31.479 --> 1:09:37.000 and it's it's great. But but when I play, I 1:09:37.040 --> 1:09:40.040 think it's actually defaulting back to the Dolby version of 1:09:40.200 --> 1:09:44.200 the five one. It's distinct in the different speakers in 1:09:44.280 --> 1:09:47.439 my car, so I can hear panning going back and 1:09:47.560 --> 1:09:50.640 forth and stuff like that. So I know what it's 1:09:50.680 --> 1:09:59.400 going to be like to have a was it's great? Okay? 1:09:59.479 --> 1:10:02.280 So he had seventy seven comes out. Were you happy 1:10:02.400 --> 1:10:06.960 with the finished product? Yes, I thought that we were 1:10:06.960 --> 1:10:10.120 a little heavier than the record. It was a it's 1:10:10.120 --> 1:10:12.120 a little clear, you know, but I thought, you know, 1:10:12.240 --> 1:10:16.040 it's very it's very clean and very immaculate, and it 1:10:16.240 --> 1:10:20.880 captured the uniqueness of the band. Certainly. David's voice is 1:10:21.160 --> 1:10:26.599 very you know, he has this, uh, completely unique way 1:10:26.600 --> 1:10:32.040 of singing, you know, probably the most on seventy seven 1:10:32.240 --> 1:10:37.719 and sort of slowly becoming a more let's say, conventional 1:10:37.840 --> 1:10:39.920 is not the right word, but the ability to sing 1:10:40.560 --> 1:10:43.599 in a fuller voice and more what we would think 1:10:43.600 --> 1:10:48.479 of as a good voice. As he progresses, has more 1:10:48.760 --> 1:10:55.599 of his kind of ah h what you know. Used 1:10:55.600 --> 1:10:59.439 to say that his his thing is like it's sort 1:10:59.479 --> 1:11:03.960 of like explosives of excitement, right, and has it has 1:11:04.040 --> 1:11:07.120 more of that. But I think that the records records great. 1:11:07.200 --> 1:11:10.720 I have favorites, so I love No Compassion, which has 1:11:10.720 --> 1:11:15.640 always been one of my favorite songs. Um No, I 1:11:15.760 --> 1:11:20.479 think it's I think who is its great and new feeling, 1:11:20.600 --> 1:11:23.519 you know, it's terrific. I mean I'm excited where we 1:11:23.600 --> 1:11:27.400 went after it because I wanted to go someplace else, 1:11:27.479 --> 1:11:30.760 but I was the first sound was great. Did you 1:11:30.920 --> 1:11:34.799 ever have doubts about the level of success of Talking Heads? 1:11:35.360 --> 1:11:37.800 I always knew we would be an artistic success and 1:11:37.920 --> 1:11:40.519 that we would really influence a lot of people. I 1:11:40.600 --> 1:11:43.360 had no idea about our commercial success. I thought it 1:11:43.400 --> 1:11:48.400 would be medium. We outstripped our commercial success from what 1:11:48.520 --> 1:11:52.000 I predicted. But I didn't do it for the money. 1:11:52.040 --> 1:11:54.360 I did it for the to be have that influence 1:11:54.439 --> 1:11:57.759 on people. And so how did you know get involved 1:11:57.800 --> 1:12:00.960 on the second record, Well, he came to see us 1:12:01.000 --> 1:12:02.920 at the Roundhouse and then we went over to his 1:12:03.040 --> 1:12:08.360 house and we went to this bookstore Compendium, and I 1:12:08.479 --> 1:12:11.479 finally found this book about that Burrows once again had 1:12:11.520 --> 1:12:15.040 written about called about this review of this book Inside 1:12:15.120 --> 1:12:20.200 Scientology by Robert Kaufman, and every bookstore in the United 1:12:20.200 --> 1:12:22.840 States did not have a copy of this book because 1:12:22.840 --> 1:12:25.599 the scientologists bought every one of them so that they 1:12:26.920 --> 1:12:28.800 so that there was no way to find out about 1:12:28.920 --> 1:12:33.560 the sort of, uh say, we're devious things that they do. 1:12:34.400 --> 1:12:36.640 And I found it at this book store, which was 1:12:36.800 --> 1:12:41.800 very exciting, and we just were admired him and said 1:12:42.200 --> 1:12:44.160 we'd love you to work with you, and he goes, 1:12:44.200 --> 1:12:46.080 are you sure I love the sout of talking at 1:12:46.120 --> 1:12:49.880 s And we said, yeah, we're sure. I mean we 1:12:49.960 --> 1:12:51.760 think that Tony knew a lot about sound but he 1:12:51.880 --> 1:12:56.680 didn't exactly understand us, and we'd like to work with 1:12:56.760 --> 1:12:59.960 someone who understands us. And then he brought in Rhet Davy, 1:13:00.040 --> 1:13:03.320 who was a terrific engineer. So and as Chris said, 1:13:03.479 --> 1:13:06.800 it was a magical time down in the ad compass point, 1:13:06.920 --> 1:13:12.519 just wonderful. And other than signing you to what degree 1:13:12.600 --> 1:13:20.680 with Seymour stunt involved, I think with us most of 1:13:20.760 --> 1:13:23.600 the time he just got out of the way. Like 1:13:23.720 --> 1:13:28.120 we designed our own album covers, we made lots of 1:13:28.200 --> 1:13:34.720 our own decisions. Um, he just tried to facilitate us. 1:13:34.800 --> 1:13:39.360 And there were times that when Warner Brothers bought sire Rad, 1:13:39.439 --> 1:13:41.599 if we couldn't get something out of Warner Brothers, Gary 1:13:41.680 --> 1:13:45.240 Kirkers would try and go get it from Seymour. And 1:13:45.360 --> 1:13:47.280 Seymour had a sauce spot for us. I mean, I 1:13:47.360 --> 1:13:50.400 think he was amongst all the bands he signed, we 1:13:50.479 --> 1:13:57.200 were among his very favorites. And so you know, how 1:13:57.280 --> 1:14:01.000 did you end up cutting Take Me to the River? Well, 1:14:01.400 --> 1:14:03.960 you know, I listened to your podcast with Chris and 1:14:04.040 --> 1:14:07.200 they talk. It's true that Edo convinced us to slow 1:14:07.280 --> 1:14:09.679 it down, which was the right choice, But I also 1:14:09.760 --> 1:14:15.400 think that very crucial thing is I learned to Take 1:14:15.439 --> 1:14:17.240 Me to the River by David teaching it to me. 1:14:18.479 --> 1:14:23.160 I never went and listened to the original. And the 1:14:23.320 --> 1:14:29.600 difference between sil Johnson or Al Green. It's all on 1:14:29.760 --> 1:14:36.320 the upbeat, It's like and ours just dude, it's like 1:14:36.520 --> 1:14:41.240 very didactic, like a march and and I think a 1:14:41.320 --> 1:14:43.559 lot of that is my Oregon part because I had 1:14:43.640 --> 1:14:46.400 learned it from David and I wasn't trying to mimic 1:14:46.479 --> 1:14:49.800 the original. I've done this movie, I don't know if 1:14:49.800 --> 1:14:51.760 you've seen this movie, Take Me at the River about 1:14:51.800 --> 1:14:56.200 Memphis music that I was a producer of. Fantastic movie. 1:14:56.520 --> 1:14:59.080 And so I've now worked with the Hodges brothers and 1:14:59.120 --> 1:15:01.720 play Take Me the Ever with them Teeny Hodges as 1:15:01.760 --> 1:15:05.799 the co writer. So I had to relearn it slightly 1:15:05.880 --> 1:15:08.479 different chords, but also a totally different feeling. So I 1:15:08.920 --> 1:15:12.880 became very, uh a sort of in tune with the 1:15:12.960 --> 1:15:15.680 differences of what our approach was and what theirs was. 1:15:17.680 --> 1:15:22.640 And ultimately the next album, Fear of Music. Tell me 1:15:22.680 --> 1:15:28.880 about the album cover, well, I designed the deck plate. 1:15:29.640 --> 1:15:32.960 It actually was influenced by because Tina's brother, who was 1:15:33.000 --> 1:15:35.880 an architect, lived in the same loft building as Christentina 1:15:35.920 --> 1:15:39.640 and me and he he used a rubber version of 1:15:39.760 --> 1:15:43.439 dech plate. It's an anti skid surface that you'll find 1:15:43.800 --> 1:15:51.479 on the backs of Ford pickup trucks on uh Sewert. 1:15:51.880 --> 1:15:54.680 You know those doors that opened for elevators to come 1:15:54.680 --> 1:15:59.840 out of the sidewalk in New York City. And I 1:16:00.520 --> 1:16:05.439 thought this would be a great cover. So I am 1:16:06.280 --> 1:16:08.519 what So I called up the company that was making 1:16:08.600 --> 1:16:12.519 this vinyl flooring and I said, can you make it 1:16:12.760 --> 1:16:14.960 thinner so we could use it for an album cover? 1:16:15.080 --> 1:16:18.559 And they go, now, you know, we can't change our presses. 1:16:18.640 --> 1:16:21.040 We can't do that. And I'm going, well, if we 1:16:21.200 --> 1:16:24.320 sell a half a million records, I said, well, what 1:16:24.400 --> 1:16:26.719 about it for an order of a million square feet? 1:16:28.320 --> 1:16:31.200 So I got the president on the on on the line. 1:16:32.560 --> 1:16:35.160 But eventually we came up with that the tolerances of 1:16:35.240 --> 1:16:37.479 getting it the thin, that it wouldn't cost too much, 1:16:37.600 --> 1:16:42.479 it just wasn't gonna work. Then the Queen's Litho, we 1:16:42.600 --> 1:16:47.320 can't do this, but eventually they came around. We had 1:16:47.360 --> 1:16:49.960 the same problem with the day Glow for talking at 1:16:50.000 --> 1:16:53.439 seventy seven Queen's Litho, like, we can't put that kind 1:16:53.439 --> 1:16:55.840 of ink in our in our presses. So David and 1:16:55.920 --> 1:17:01.000 I started calling all of these record manufacturer verse from 1:17:01.000 --> 1:17:03.439 out in the Midwest that did poker covers that used 1:17:03.479 --> 1:17:06.680 Dayklow all the time, and then we said, okay, well 1:17:06.720 --> 1:17:08.840 we're going to use this place in Ohio they do 1:17:09.000 --> 1:17:10.560 day Clow all the time. Well, of course at that 1:17:10.680 --> 1:17:14.519 point queens Litho said, of course we'll do it. And 1:17:14.600 --> 1:17:18.519 then of course Very Music got nominated for a Grammy, 1:17:18.680 --> 1:17:22.720 and uh, you know, queens Litha, we're petting themselves on 1:17:22.800 --> 1:17:28.280 the back and David, uh, sort of just the type 1:17:28.479 --> 1:17:33.040 is basically to look like an IBM S Electric And 1:17:33.120 --> 1:17:35.680 then I found a friend of mine was working the 1:17:35.760 --> 1:17:38.799 same marine who had been the drummer in the Modern Lovers, 1:17:39.600 --> 1:17:43.599 was working for this cancer doctor. And you know, David 1:17:43.680 --> 1:17:46.280 had thought of the idea of the lands At photo 1:17:46.439 --> 1:17:50.200 for the back of of more songs about buildings and food. 1:17:50.280 --> 1:17:53.920 So we were like really excited by things that were 1:17:54.000 --> 1:17:57.800 imagery that was interesting and beautiful but had a meaning 1:17:57.920 --> 1:18:02.080 beyond being sort of artistic. Okay, so the inside cover 1:18:02.439 --> 1:18:08.120 is a heat sensitive photograph that was used in trying 1:18:08.200 --> 1:18:11.880 to detect press camp cancer in the seventies. So we 1:18:12.000 --> 1:18:14.559 all got our pictures taken, but David's just came out 1:18:14.640 --> 1:18:17.240 looking at the sort of weirdest and coolest, So we 1:18:17.360 --> 1:18:22.519 used that and life during the Wartime. Did that come 1:18:22.560 --> 1:18:25.120 to you from David totally totally done? Or to what 1:18:25.240 --> 1:18:30.880 degree was the band involved? David and I came up 1:18:31.000 --> 1:18:32.920 with I think I came up with the chorus, and 1:18:33.000 --> 1:18:36.160 he came up with the verse, and christ and Tina 1:18:36.240 --> 1:18:39.200 said that they had come up with something independently that 1:18:39.680 --> 1:18:44.160 that led to the song. So we ended up sharing 1:18:44.240 --> 1:18:47.280 that between the four of us. Um, I don't I 1:18:47.640 --> 1:18:52.560 didn't quite understand what Chris and Tina were what what 1:18:52.680 --> 1:18:54.680 they exactly referring to, because it was something that they 1:18:54.720 --> 1:18:57.439 said they had done, but you know, it was that 1:18:57.560 --> 1:19:00.360 was so it was that's what we did. I mean, 1:19:02.280 --> 1:19:04.120 Fair of Music is an interesting cover because it's the 1:19:04.160 --> 1:19:07.240 only song time where I got to write with David, 1:19:07.360 --> 1:19:10.080 just the two of us. So I co wrote Heaven, 1:19:10.160 --> 1:19:13.040 I co wrote wrote Memories Can't Wait, and I co 1:19:13.200 --> 1:19:17.720 wrote mind You know. Then one after remain in Light 1:19:17.840 --> 1:19:19.439 and we had this whole thing that I know you 1:19:19.720 --> 1:19:23.400 talked to Chris about about this whole group writing experience. 1:19:25.360 --> 1:19:27.640 I never had the opportunity to be sort of one 1:19:27.720 --> 1:19:33.080 on one with him, so remaining like, give me your 1:19:33.240 --> 1:19:36.200 version of how that comes together. Well, I think it 1:19:36.320 --> 1:19:39.800 begins with when we did the Fair of Music. We 1:19:39.920 --> 1:19:42.280 had recorded the song that became the Zimbra, but we 1:19:42.400 --> 1:19:45.640 never came up with lyrics. So we were sitting at 1:19:45.680 --> 1:19:50.320 Atlantic Records listening to all the mixes. We're about to 1:19:50.400 --> 1:19:52.640 jump on a plane to fly to New zealand, go 1:19:52.800 --> 1:19:56.679 on to Australia through Perth, then fly to play Pink 1:19:56.720 --> 1:19:59.799 Pop in Europe with a like a week vacation in Europe, 1:20:01.080 --> 1:20:04.040 and so we're at that. We listened to it and 1:20:04.080 --> 1:20:05.720 I go, can we just put on I don't know 1:20:05.800 --> 1:20:08.840 what we called it at that point, track sixteen, and 1:20:08.960 --> 1:20:12.599 we put it on and I think everyone went, that's 1:20:12.640 --> 1:20:15.400 got to go on the record. So David and I 1:20:15.680 --> 1:20:19.479 flew back from Perth thirty hours to New York to 1:20:19.680 --> 1:20:24.320 finish uh Zimbra, and that's when Brian came up with 1:20:24.400 --> 1:20:27.920 the idea of using the Hugo ball poem. And then 1:20:28.200 --> 1:20:30.360 David and I went to the mastering lab with Eno 1:20:30.520 --> 1:20:32.360 and then left there and went and flew all night, 1:20:32.439 --> 1:20:35.280 went and played Pink Pop in Europe. But I think 1:20:35.360 --> 1:20:39.960 we all realized that the that that zimbra and it's 1:20:40.040 --> 1:20:43.519 influenced by African music was what we wanted to do next. 1:20:45.000 --> 1:20:47.400 And so all of us were listening to Fella and 1:20:47.560 --> 1:20:52.080 Manage to Coti that's the name of a restaurant, Manta 1:20:52.160 --> 1:20:59.400 da Bango, and various other things, and and we then decided, 1:21:00.880 --> 1:21:03.240 uh that we would not write ahead of being in 1:21:03.280 --> 1:21:05.879 the studio, but just do it in the studio itself, 1:21:06.600 --> 1:21:10.840 because we had realized that sometimes the first time you 1:21:10.920 --> 1:21:13.200 play a song, there's an innocence and there's a way 1:21:13.240 --> 1:21:15.200 that you play it that's different than you'll ever play 1:21:15.240 --> 1:21:19.439 it again. And we went to capture that. And so 1:21:19.600 --> 1:21:22.560 we got down to compass point we were working and 1:21:22.680 --> 1:21:24.400 Rhet Davies was going to is that it was the 1:21:24.479 --> 1:21:26.880 engineer who had done more songs about buildings and food. 1:21:27.880 --> 1:21:30.240 Then you know, got wind of it and he suddenly 1:21:30.400 --> 1:21:34.720 was showed up and you know, getting there, Rhett was 1:21:34.840 --> 1:21:37.439 wanting to sort of get out from under you know's 1:21:39.160 --> 1:21:43.920 you know wing will say, so he quit and then 1:21:44.000 --> 1:21:49.200 you know, tried engineering but he's not he can't do it, 1:21:49.880 --> 1:21:52.360 I mean, or he's so slow. It was, it was 1:21:52.479 --> 1:21:55.800 ridiculous and the assistant a compass point, couldn't do it. 1:21:55.880 --> 1:21:59.519 So then Dave turn flew in because he had been 1:21:59.560 --> 1:22:01.280 working in My Life and the Bush of Ghosts with 1:22:01.400 --> 1:22:05.240 David and you know, and he was the engineer, and 1:22:05.360 --> 1:22:07.040 he then went on to be the engineer on my 1:22:07.160 --> 1:22:09.120 first solo record, The Red and the Black. We got 1:22:09.160 --> 1:22:14.000 to be good friends and we were often going out 1:22:14.120 --> 1:22:16.400 and people doing one thing at a time, sometimes a 1:22:16.439 --> 1:22:21.799 couple of things at a time. And and uh boards 1:22:21.840 --> 1:22:27.519 back then had a way of locking mutes, so you 1:22:27.600 --> 1:22:30.360 could have an A button that had the mutes of 1:22:30.479 --> 1:22:33.519 one group and then be the other. So we would 1:22:33.560 --> 1:22:36.720 sort of do parts and assign them to the A 1:22:36.880 --> 1:22:39.759 group and the B part and go back and forth. 1:22:40.720 --> 1:22:44.679 And that's really how we wrote the record, with these 1:22:45.920 --> 1:22:49.439 groups of A groups of B. I don't I don't 1:22:49.479 --> 1:22:52.080 think there's very many C parts in the record. I 1:22:52.120 --> 1:22:55.160 think it's all A B, A B, sometimes different lyrics, 1:22:55.240 --> 1:22:59.280 but A B, A B. Then we you know, had 1:22:59.320 --> 1:23:01.760 a commitment had to leave, and we decided we went 1:23:01.840 --> 1:23:04.040 back to New York, which I think was in some 1:23:04.160 --> 1:23:08.040 ways we lost our momentum. And I went around and 1:23:08.080 --> 1:23:10.960 negotiated with all the studios in New York to find 1:23:11.040 --> 1:23:13.599 us the best deal, and we ended I had produced 1:23:13.680 --> 1:23:18.960 Nona Hendricks down at Philadelphia Sigma Sound, and I loved 1:23:19.000 --> 1:23:21.759 how professional they were. So I went to Sigma Sound 1:23:22.640 --> 1:23:25.280 and I convinced them that they being an R and 1:23:25.400 --> 1:23:28.040 B studio, that by having us, we could be a 1:23:28.160 --> 1:23:31.000 lost leader for them to get rock bands to come 1:23:31.040 --> 1:23:33.679 to them. So I got us this unbelievable deal there. 1:23:35.040 --> 1:23:38.800 Um I asked Gary Kirfurst, if you negotiated with him, 1:23:38.800 --> 1:23:41.000 and he goes like, no, nobody would do better the 1:23:41.040 --> 1:23:44.360 way you already got. I just said, I want Jerry Steele. 1:23:45.600 --> 1:23:48.920 So we went there. But David had kind of writer's cramp, 1:23:49.120 --> 1:23:51.800 let'll say romain and I was a very hard record 1:23:51.880 --> 1:23:55.599 to write melodies of lyrics too, because there it's modal, 1:23:55.920 --> 1:23:59.519 it doesn't have chord changes to go to places. So 1:23:59.640 --> 1:24:04.919 he's ruggled. And he then started picking up an instrument 1:24:04.960 --> 1:24:08.360 and started playing along to things, and this started to 1:24:09.040 --> 1:24:12.519 mutate what had come out of the Bahamas, which I 1:24:12.600 --> 1:24:15.320 think was quite frustrating to Christentina because they loved what 1:24:15.400 --> 1:24:17.840 had come out of the Bahamas. But it was sort 1:24:17.840 --> 1:24:21.920 of a necessary evil for David to get back into 1:24:22.439 --> 1:24:24.800 sort of being inside the music and then coming up 1:24:24.880 --> 1:24:31.080 with lyrics and uh melodies. And I was there for 1:24:31.160 --> 1:24:35.120 every minute of it, and I mean sometimes just watching, 1:24:35.280 --> 1:24:39.160 sometimes putting in my two cents. By the time it 1:24:39.280 --> 1:24:42.960 was ending, we had been offered to play up at 1:24:43.000 --> 1:24:45.680 the Heatwave Festival and to play in Central Park that 1:24:45.800 --> 1:24:49.439 Ron Telser had this series, and we go. I'm talking 1:24:49.479 --> 1:24:51.040 to David. I was like, how are we gonna record? 1:24:51.240 --> 1:24:53.360 How are we gonna play all this music? So he 1:24:53.400 --> 1:24:55.120 and I sat down and going like, Oh, we're gonna 1:24:55.120 --> 1:24:57.680 another keyboard player, were another guitar player, We're gonna need 1:24:57.720 --> 1:25:00.360 background singers. I had brought in, by the way, Nona 1:25:00.439 --> 1:25:03.680 Hendricks to sing on the record. Brian goes like, oh, 1:25:03.760 --> 1:25:05.760 she'll take too long, that all singers they sing out 1:25:05.800 --> 1:25:08.840 of tune, and I went, Brian, trust me, it's gonna 1:25:08.880 --> 1:25:10.920 be great. And of course the minute she was there, 1:25:11.000 --> 1:25:16.960 he was in heaven. So it was great. So we 1:25:17.080 --> 1:25:18.880 got to the point that we were to be ready 1:25:18.960 --> 1:25:22.760 for playing this show. David Flute to l A to 1:25:22.920 --> 1:25:27.120 mix at El Dorado Studios with with Dave Jordan, and 1:25:27.240 --> 1:25:30.800 I stayed with Eno and John Potoker at Sigma and 1:25:30.880 --> 1:25:34.360 did other songs. Meanwhile, I went out. I went out 1:25:34.439 --> 1:25:38.800 one afternoon and hired Bernie Adrian Blue to let McDonald 1:25:38.880 --> 1:25:42.559 busted Jones. A day or so later, we found Steve Scales. 1:25:42.600 --> 1:25:43.960 So I go back. I come back and go like, 1:25:44.320 --> 1:25:47.600 we have the most incredible bad on earth. And so 1:25:47.760 --> 1:25:50.400 we were rehearsing at Britanny Away, which was owned by 1:25:50.479 --> 1:25:55.000 Pink Floyd out in Long Island City. So I called 1:25:55.080 --> 1:25:57.080 up everybody and I made this deal with him. I said, 1:25:57.479 --> 1:25:59.840 I'm gonna hire you for two weeks. We're doing two shows. 1:26:00.000 --> 1:26:03.840 You're gonna make this money per per week. And uh, 1:26:04.240 --> 1:26:07.479 Bernie's wife Judy goes, who I'm still friends with, She goes, 1:26:09.080 --> 1:26:12.519 that was the clearest and the best negotiation I've ever 1:26:12.600 --> 1:26:16.000 had in my life. Everything you said happened exactly as 1:26:16.040 --> 1:26:19.160 you said it. The first day. So I was teaching 1:26:19.200 --> 1:26:21.080 everybody the song, and everybody thought I was the leader 1:26:21.080 --> 1:26:23.800 of the band, and then David shows up. They go like, 1:26:23.840 --> 1:26:25.720 who's he? And then he started singing the song and 1:26:25.760 --> 1:26:27.840 they like, oh, he's the lead singer and he does 1:26:27.880 --> 1:26:35.479 all this other stuff. So and the record is, you know, 1:26:35.840 --> 1:26:38.519 it's the most you know, it's the most influential and 1:26:38.560 --> 1:26:41.000 amazing record we did. I mean, I think my two 1:26:41.080 --> 1:26:45.360 favorites are fair of music and and and remain in light. 1:26:45.479 --> 1:26:48.880 Although speaking in tongues is really been growing on me 1:26:48.960 --> 1:26:52.800 a lot lately. But I love I love, I love 1:26:52.880 --> 1:26:54.760 them all. And it's of course interesting because I haven't 1:26:54.800 --> 1:26:57.560 done the atmos Max is like, they're much fresher in 1:26:57.680 --> 1:27:01.040 my mind. Again, So you play your own music, you 1:27:01.080 --> 1:27:04.519 play your own records, but not that often. Mainly I 1:27:04.560 --> 1:27:06.679 hear him in stores or on the radio and stuff 1:27:06.680 --> 1:27:11.200 like that. Okay, Now, Gary told me a story that 1:27:11.880 --> 1:27:15.360 Eno was trying to weazle in to get an equal 1:27:15.520 --> 1:27:17.240 royalty as a member of the band. Is said, I 1:27:17.320 --> 1:27:20.080 earned it, and Gary said, no problem, the band's going 1:27:20.120 --> 1:27:22.479 out on a tour. Just show up, and then that 1:27:22.640 --> 1:27:25.240 solved the whole problem. It's exactly right. You know, he 1:27:25.400 --> 1:27:29.200 was like someone who he had stage right. It's amazing 1:27:29.240 --> 1:27:31.640 that he's such a confident guy. It's amazing stage right. 1:27:31.720 --> 1:27:33.200 But yeah, no way he was going to do that, 1:27:34.720 --> 1:27:40.320 and and and you know he was Edo lost an 1:27:40.360 --> 1:27:43.720 opportunity though, you know, went on to doing music from 1:27:43.760 --> 1:27:46.920 airports at that point, which was which was great, and 1:27:47.000 --> 1:27:49.960 it was sort of the beginning of ambient music. But 1:27:51.000 --> 1:27:54.040 we would have been happy to have been Ino's backup 1:27:54.120 --> 1:27:57.679 band on another record like Remain in Light with him singing, 1:27:57.760 --> 1:28:02.080 had he wanted to do it, so he he lost 1:28:02.120 --> 1:28:05.639 an opportunity to because when he was singing with Nona, 1:28:06.400 --> 1:28:10.240 to me, it's the only time I ever heard him 1:28:10.360 --> 1:28:15.280 sing that didn't seem careful. It seemed like he got 1:28:15.400 --> 1:28:18.120 so into the moment and with her that he started 1:28:18.200 --> 1:28:21.880 to see sing with some excitement in his voice, not 1:28:22.160 --> 1:28:26.960 that sort of careful, pure tone that he does almost 1:28:27.000 --> 1:28:29.479 all the other times. Look, can you tell me about 1:28:29.600 --> 1:28:33.639 Once in a Lifetime? The most the strangest thing about 1:28:33.680 --> 1:28:39.360 Once in a Lifetime was that with the base being 1:28:39.439 --> 1:28:42.600 on the upbeat and the drums on this downbeat, that 1:28:42.960 --> 1:28:47.200 how you mixed it, you could decide that the one 1:28:47.439 --> 1:28:50.960 was one place or a half beat later. There's a 1:28:52.080 --> 1:28:56.040 there's an ambiguity there. The way we went out and 1:28:56.080 --> 1:28:59.280 played it live, everyone has changed the bass part to 1:28:59.360 --> 1:29:02.720 be with the drums. But on the record, if you're 1:29:02.720 --> 1:29:08.760 going one, two, three, four, one done done, done on, 1:29:10.720 --> 1:29:13.360 done on, But if you put the base up louder, 1:29:13.479 --> 1:29:20.120 you think that's the one. So it has this sort of. Uh, 1:29:21.439 --> 1:29:27.559 I don't know, you know, uneasyness will say that gives 1:29:27.600 --> 1:29:29.840 it attention that I think is really special to it. 1:29:31.160 --> 1:29:36.080 So Remaining in Light was not only different from the 1:29:36.280 --> 1:29:39.760 previous Talking Heads album, was different from anything else in 1:29:39.840 --> 1:29:45.240 the marketplace. Were you worried about audience acceptance into what degreed? 1:29:45.360 --> 1:29:48.680 Did you think the audience would accept it? Well? I 1:29:48.720 --> 1:29:50.519 think that after we did the tour, but before the 1:29:50.600 --> 1:29:55.120 record came out, we played heat Wave and Central Park 1:29:55.200 --> 1:29:58.879 and everybody went insane for it, so we were pretty confident. 1:29:59.560 --> 1:30:02.040 It took years for the sales to catch up to 1:30:02.920 --> 1:30:06.960 fair of music though, And how did you know Adrian 1:30:07.080 --> 1:30:13.880 Blue and Bernie Warrell and stuff? So Adrian we he 1:30:14.040 --> 1:30:16.320 first saw us at the accident, but we didn't see 1:30:16.439 --> 1:30:19.840 him there. I think that, you know, Mona told us 1:30:19.840 --> 1:30:21.600 about us, and then he came and saw us and 1:30:21.800 --> 1:30:25.479 chammed with us. He was living in Champagne, Urbana, and 1:30:25.840 --> 1:30:30.280 he's from Cincinnati I think originally um and he played 1:30:30.320 --> 1:30:32.680 with us a few times. And how he ended up 1:30:32.760 --> 1:30:38.559 on uh fir on Remaining Light is that I noticed 1:30:38.600 --> 1:30:42.680 that he was playing at the Mud Club. My recollection 1:30:42.800 --> 1:30:44.320 is that I went down and talked to him but 1:30:44.400 --> 1:30:48.160 I guess maybe that he said remembers that Brian David 1:30:48.200 --> 1:30:50.559 and I went down and he came up the next day. 1:30:51.000 --> 1:30:54.160 He tells a wonderful story. He goes, we're no lyrics, 1:30:55.400 --> 1:30:57.680 and he said, well, he went out in the room 1:30:57.760 --> 1:31:00.120 and this is for the Great Curve, one of his 1:31:00.320 --> 1:31:03.160 all time best solos and he ever played in his life. 1:31:04.680 --> 1:31:09.000 And I think. He goes, We'll just listen and when 1:31:09.040 --> 1:31:11.559 you think of solo, should come in play a solo. 1:31:12.320 --> 1:31:17.519 And then when you stop, stop and then listen for 1:31:17.560 --> 1:31:19.519 a while longer, and then come in when you think 1:31:19.600 --> 1:31:21.360 something that would you would play a part for the 1:31:21.479 --> 1:31:24.320 end of the song. So he's getting set up and 1:31:24.360 --> 1:31:28.439 he's listening and he plays it and he goes, okay, 1:31:28.479 --> 1:31:31.640 I think I'm ready, and we go We're finished. That 1:31:31.800 --> 1:31:35.600 was fantastic. It was so great, and we went on 1:31:35.760 --> 1:31:40.000 from there. I then got to He then moved up 1:31:40.080 --> 1:31:45.400 to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin with his first wife, Um, and 1:31:45.600 --> 1:31:48.040 I was gone back to Milwaukee to take care of 1:31:48.160 --> 1:31:51.599 my mother because my father died suddenly. My mother had cancer, 1:31:52.240 --> 1:31:55.160 so I was splitting my time between New York and Milwaukee, 1:31:55.160 --> 1:32:00.479 and I found this little studio called DV recording that 1:32:00.640 --> 1:32:04.080 was in a bomb shelter, and it was actually the 1:32:04.120 --> 1:32:06.599 bomb shelter had been the bedroom of my best friend 1:32:06.640 --> 1:32:10.759 in nursery school in grade school, and he had committed 1:32:10.760 --> 1:32:14.000 suicide after after high school, but his younger brother had 1:32:14.080 --> 1:32:17.439 taken over his parents house and I got to love 1:32:17.520 --> 1:32:20.240 working there. And you know, this was at a period 1:32:20.360 --> 1:32:23.160 where an eight hour block in New York cost a 1:32:23.200 --> 1:32:26.560 thousand dollars and I was getting his studio for a 1:32:26.640 --> 1:32:30.320 thousand dollars a week. But he could do any commercials 1:32:30.400 --> 1:32:32.080 you want. And that's how I taught myself how to 1:32:32.120 --> 1:32:33.960 be a good producer, because I could take the time. 1:32:34.000 --> 1:32:37.120 I was basically working on the record that became Casual 1:32:37.200 --> 1:32:41.000 Gods with him. But then I produced a single for 1:32:41.080 --> 1:32:43.479 a band called It's in Material that was a top 1:32:43.560 --> 1:32:45.800 ten hit in although I took my name off it 1:32:45.920 --> 1:32:47.519 because I was piste off at what they did in 1:32:47.600 --> 1:32:51.000 the mix. In England, I produced the Blind Leading the 1:32:51.120 --> 1:33:00.840 Naked for the Piling Fems. There I produced um Oh 1:33:01.720 --> 1:33:05.280 Elliott Murphy's album Milwaukee. There, I just did a lot 1:33:05.360 --> 1:33:08.760 of stuff and I met my wife there. How do 1:33:08.800 --> 1:33:12.479 you meet your wife? I had tried to pick up 1:33:12.640 --> 1:33:15.080 in a bar with her boyfriend. There was a there 1:33:15.200 --> 1:33:18.879 was these uh there was like some of my favorite 1:33:19.160 --> 1:33:22.439 musicians from Milwaukee had a sort of supergroup will say, 1:33:23.439 --> 1:33:25.720 and all the musicians in Milwaukee would go on like 1:33:25.800 --> 1:33:28.160 Tuesday night to see them. And then a year later 1:33:28.800 --> 1:33:32.120 when I walked in the studio, she was the bookkeeper. 1:33:33.720 --> 1:33:36.080 It was there were a lot of things that had 1:33:36.160 --> 1:33:38.200 to fall. She was engaged to get married. It was 1:33:38.479 --> 1:33:43.280 it was let's say, um with it. It was a 1:33:43.479 --> 1:33:45.960 bunch of things to negotiate. But happily we did it. 1:33:46.080 --> 1:33:49.360 And we're still a little bit slower. She's the bookkeeper. 1:33:49.479 --> 1:33:52.400 You're seeing her all the time. She's engaged. How do 1:33:52.640 --> 1:33:57.040 how do we make the transition? She said. I walked 1:33:57.080 --> 1:33:59.160 in and there was like the electricity was there, and 1:33:59.240 --> 1:34:06.840 she goes, oh, and we started, uh kind of seeing 1:34:06.880 --> 1:34:09.080 each other on the slide because I had a girlfriend then, 1:34:10.400 --> 1:34:13.680 and uh, we just realized that we were the two 1:34:13.760 --> 1:34:15.800 of us were soul mates and we had But it 1:34:15.880 --> 1:34:19.040 took me a while. You know, she was a little 1:34:19.040 --> 1:34:21.280 more decisive than I. Wy I was. It took a 1:34:21.320 --> 1:34:23.560 little while, but we did that and now we have 1:34:23.680 --> 1:34:28.200 three kids and it's great, Okay, and what did the 1:34:28.280 --> 1:34:34.519 guys say. I think that they were I'm happy that 1:34:34.600 --> 1:34:38.040 I found someone that uh, well, I seemed to be 1:34:38.120 --> 1:34:42.760 in love with no no, no guy she dubbed. Well. 1:34:42.880 --> 1:34:44.280 It was hard for him because he was a big 1:34:44.320 --> 1:34:46.839 Talking Hints fan. So at first he was really delighted 1:34:46.880 --> 1:34:49.559 that I was around. Then he realized that maybe wasn't 1:34:49.640 --> 1:34:52.519 so good. But all he had to get over it. 1:34:52.640 --> 1:34:54.559 You know, it was too bad. It was it was messy. 1:34:54.680 --> 1:35:04.439 I'm not you know, it was bessy. Okay. The The 1:35:04.560 --> 1:35:07.800 cover of Heaven is by Iva Davies in Berlin. You 1:35:07.920 --> 1:35:11.439 can uh it's built his ice house on Spotify, you 1:35:11.439 --> 1:35:15.200 can check it out. But you're now going on the 1:35:15.320 --> 1:35:19.760 road with Remaining Light with Adrian. How did that come together? Well, 1:35:19.800 --> 1:35:22.320 I've been thinking about this for ten years that there 1:35:22.439 --> 1:35:25.600 is this YouTube video from Talking Heads in Rome in 1:35:27.720 --> 1:35:31.160 and for Adrian lives in Nashville right now. And as 1:35:31.200 --> 1:35:33.040 I said, I did this movie Take Me the River, 1:35:33.160 --> 1:35:35.240 and we were at the Nashville Film Festival, and we 1:35:35.320 --> 1:35:38.640 did a screening for the Nashville chapter of the Grammys, 1:35:38.800 --> 1:35:41.160 and I don't know, there was just a bunch of 1:35:41.240 --> 1:35:43.639 reasons that I suddenly went to Nashville, and I'd always 1:35:43.680 --> 1:35:46.240 have dinner with Adrian and we just talked about how 1:35:46.320 --> 1:35:49.160 great that was ego. You know, my fans say, that's 1:35:49.200 --> 1:35:51.880 the most joyful concert they've ever seen. And I said, 1:35:52.560 --> 1:35:55.240 we got to find a way to recreate this. And 1:35:55.320 --> 1:35:58.439 then I produced this band, turk Quase, who were big 1:35:58.479 --> 1:36:02.360 fans of Talking Heads, And I said, Adrian had another 1:36:02.400 --> 1:36:07.519 way of using session musicians, So I don't want session musicians. Hey, 1:36:07.800 --> 1:36:10.080 they'll never they won't ever share a room, and you 1:36:10.160 --> 1:36:15.160 know it's not gonna work. So I suggested Turquoise. So 1:36:16.640 --> 1:36:19.799 Turquoise had a show at the Exident and we booked 1:36:19.800 --> 1:36:23.640 a rehearsal room after it, and Adrian I went to 1:36:23.720 --> 1:36:26.000 see them, and then we did a rehearsal one day 1:36:26.760 --> 1:36:30.680 and Adrian goes, you were right, this band is perfect. Uh, 1:36:31.200 --> 1:36:33.160 so we did. So we were was all supposed to 1:36:33.200 --> 1:36:36.839 take place in the fourth anniversary, but of course COVID happened, 1:36:37.880 --> 1:36:42.919 So it's happened over twenty two playing festivals. Eventually Turquise 1:36:43.040 --> 1:36:47.920 broke up. So actually it's not the lead singer and 1:36:48.000 --> 1:36:49.640 not the bass player, but all the other members of 1:36:49.720 --> 1:36:55.120 Turquoise and then Adrian's uh bass player from his trio, 1:36:55.439 --> 1:36:59.439 Julie is now playing bass. It's actually better now because 1:36:59.520 --> 1:37:04.280 Adrian I sing more. And you know, we had an 1:37:04.280 --> 1:37:08.360 amazing experience. We played it Hardly Strictly the Bluegrass Festival 1:37:09.120 --> 1:37:13.120 in San Francisco, Fisco. We played the fifty thousand people 1:37:13.160 --> 1:37:17.760 there in October and after Elvis Costello, and there was 1:37:18.040 --> 1:37:23.959 a a wave of joy that just went over the audience. 1:37:25.240 --> 1:37:29.120 It was It's one of the most remarkable evenings of 1:37:29.200 --> 1:37:33.040 my life. And you can see it by going to 1:37:33.240 --> 1:37:36.759 Hardly Strictly and they will say Jerry Harrison and Adrian Blue. 1:37:37.680 --> 1:37:40.320 So now we're taking it on a more sort of 1:37:40.600 --> 1:37:43.639 serious tour us. It's really a tour for twenty year olds. 1:37:43.800 --> 1:37:48.200 Like five days on, one day off hoping I hold up, 1:37:48.439 --> 1:37:54.360 I mean Minneapolis in February. Sounds kind of dicey to me, 1:37:55.360 --> 1:37:58.960 but that's what I'm doing now. If you look on 1:37:59.439 --> 1:38:01.280 if you look at the tracks you played, the songs 1:38:01.360 --> 1:38:05.320 you played, it was from throughout talking hits career. Is 1:38:05.360 --> 1:38:07.640 it going to be the album remain in Life of 1:38:07.760 --> 1:38:10.200 beginning to end or is it gonna be like that? Now? 1:38:10.320 --> 1:38:13.679 It's like the show in Rome. So it has songs 1:38:13.760 --> 1:38:17.280 from Fear of Music and as Psycho Killer, we do 1:38:17.479 --> 1:38:21.720 one King Crimson song, we do rev it up my 1:38:21.880 --> 1:38:29.240 solo song, and the girls in the Turquoise had been 1:38:29.320 --> 1:38:33.280 doing Slippery People, and so since maybe his Staples does 1:38:33.680 --> 1:38:39.439 Slippery People, uh, we are doing a version of Slippery 1:38:39.520 --> 1:38:41.840 People that the girls in the band sing. So we're 1:38:42.120 --> 1:38:45.040 sort of we're sort of venturing three songs away from 1:38:45.280 --> 1:38:48.439 what we did in Rome, and we've we've thrown out 1:38:48.479 --> 1:38:51.160 a couple of the songs from Rome, but we're not 1:38:51.920 --> 1:38:54.519 it's not we're not going any further into the Talking 1:38:54.600 --> 1:38:57.880 Hits career, except for of course, Slippery People Beyonder Man 1:38:57.960 --> 1:39:01.600 in Life. Oh okay, when was the last time you 1:39:01.680 --> 1:39:05.640 were on a tour other than these one offs that 1:39:05.680 --> 1:39:11.719 I've done with this, It would have been I think 1:39:11.800 --> 1:39:18.200 the tour for uh hm, no talking just heads with 1:39:18.360 --> 1:39:21.600 christ and Tina. And how many years ago was that? 1:39:23.160 --> 1:39:28.200 Nineties six or some long time? Okay, tell me about 1:39:28.200 --> 1:39:30.920 the genesis of the movie and how you felt about 1:39:30.960 --> 1:39:37.760 the movie with the Big Suit, et cetera. Well, the 1:39:37.800 --> 1:39:41.120 original band, which was what Adrian and I are trying 1:39:41.160 --> 1:39:48.799 to capture, started. Adrian left to join King Crimson, which honestly, 1:39:48.920 --> 1:39:50.840 I recommended that he do. I thought it was a 1:39:50.920 --> 1:39:53.000 very good move for his career, even though I missed 1:39:53.080 --> 1:39:55.760 him the idea that he'd be playing for us and 1:39:58.439 --> 1:40:02.400 we and Alex we are joined a band. Uh don't 1:40:02.439 --> 1:40:11.120 let McDonald got stolen by the police. Tina rightly realized 1:40:11.160 --> 1:40:14.840 that having two bass players was confusing. I think that 1:40:14.960 --> 1:40:17.240 David and I heard that there were places on remaining 1:40:17.320 --> 1:40:19.000 like where there were two basses, and we were trying 1:40:19.000 --> 1:40:23.000 to emulate that. But on stage there were times in 1:40:23.120 --> 1:40:26.439 that band where it was like very abstract. It was 1:40:26.520 --> 1:40:28.160 like one side of the band went this way and 1:40:28.280 --> 1:40:30.720 one side of the band went this way. I wish 1:40:30.760 --> 1:40:32.880 we had recordings of every night because it would have 1:40:32.920 --> 1:40:35.720 been like Charles Eves or something that would have been fantastic. 1:40:37.040 --> 1:40:40.160 So and so it got a little more locked down 1:40:40.920 --> 1:40:44.479 when we did the tour for speaking in Tongues and 1:40:44.560 --> 1:40:48.479 then and it was getting a little more visual. And 1:40:48.600 --> 1:40:52.400 then David um, you know, he had done the Catherine 1:40:52.439 --> 1:40:56.760 Wheel with Twilt Tharpe, which actually I worked on for 1:40:56.920 --> 1:41:00.800 quite a while as well, and he I think it 1:41:00.880 --> 1:41:02.880 was getting more into like staging. He had worked with 1:41:03.040 --> 1:41:06.640 Robert Wilson on the Civil Wars, So I think he 1:41:06.720 --> 1:41:11.600 wanted to do something that had that visual element, and 1:41:11.840 --> 1:41:16.280 so he started talking to stage designers and other stuff 1:41:16.280 --> 1:41:19.200 and coming up with ideas, and a couple of a 1:41:19.280 --> 1:41:22.840 few ideas we threw in and uh, it got sort 1:41:22.880 --> 1:41:26.799 of designed that way. The big suit comes from Kabuki 1:41:26.920 --> 1:41:30.120 theater and he had two of them made. A friend 1:41:30.160 --> 1:41:32.560 of mine who I knew, designed the one that he 1:41:32.680 --> 1:41:37.960 used the most. And you know, this idea of building 1:41:38.040 --> 1:41:41.000 the stage we had sort of, you know, in the beginning, 1:41:41.160 --> 1:41:43.040 like even a heat wave. We came out as a 1:41:43.120 --> 1:41:46.040 foresome and then grew into the band. So this idea 1:41:46.040 --> 1:41:51.320 of getting of growing from little too big already been born, 1:41:51.520 --> 1:41:55.200 but it became much more going all the way, one 1:41:55.280 --> 1:41:57.120 person at a time by the time we got to 1:41:57.760 --> 1:42:00.840 to stop making sense. And I think one of the 1:42:01.000 --> 1:42:07.360 enduring qualities of stop making sense is that what David 1:42:07.439 --> 1:42:11.560 and the lighting designers came up with used technology that 1:42:11.800 --> 1:42:14.000 really was sort of could have been there in the thirties. 1:42:15.280 --> 1:42:22.400 You know, a rear screen, projection lights, handheld lights. There's 1:42:22.479 --> 1:42:25.680 there was nothing. There were no very lights. There are 1:42:25.760 --> 1:42:28.640 no things that were like of that time period. So 1:42:28.760 --> 1:42:32.840 therefore it becomes timeless, could be could be recreated out 1:42:32.880 --> 1:42:35.880 of like supper stock someplace, or it could be done 1:42:36.760 --> 1:42:40.759 you know, it doesn't rely on technology. How did Jonathan 1:42:40.840 --> 1:42:43.840 Demi get involved? I think he saw the show and said, like, 1:42:44.160 --> 1:42:48.800 this is fantastic. I want to film this. Okay. When 1:42:48.880 --> 1:42:52.519 did you realize that David wasn't going to want to 1:42:52.600 --> 1:42:57.560 do it anymore? Or was that always a factor in 1:42:57.680 --> 1:42:59.400 the back of your mind or was it a shock? 1:43:02.320 --> 1:43:04.759 Have you been through the breakup of the Modern Lovers. 1:43:05.479 --> 1:43:07.920 I thought it was inevitable to happen at some point, 1:43:09.800 --> 1:43:12.519 and my goal was to feel that I was prepared 1:43:12.640 --> 1:43:21.800 for that change to happen. UM. But up through True Stories, 1:43:23.920 --> 1:43:26.919 I thought that we we were just we're going to continue. 1:43:26.960 --> 1:43:30.240 Although I was really disappointed that we'd stopped touring. I 1:43:30.320 --> 1:43:32.639 think there was an element that the success of stopped 1:43:32.680 --> 1:43:39.240 making sense that David I didn't want to uh compete 1:43:39.320 --> 1:43:43.360 with himself, so to speak. Um. There was a moment 1:43:43.439 --> 1:43:45.800 when we did little creatures where we talked about doing 1:43:46.760 --> 1:43:51.880 going to uh doing residencies in different times, like do 1:43:52.040 --> 1:43:54.439 six days at the Beacon and then there's six days 1:43:54.520 --> 1:43:57.640 at the Theater in Chicago and six days of Philadelphia 1:43:57.680 --> 1:44:01.040 and Los Angeles and San Francisco, because then we could 1:44:01.040 --> 1:44:05.760 have had more constant lighting and things like that, but 1:44:07.400 --> 1:44:10.519 his desire to move on to true story sort of 1:44:10.760 --> 1:44:14.519 short circuited that. One of my great disappointments is we 1:44:14.600 --> 1:44:18.920 were offered to play Live Aid and we would have 1:44:19.040 --> 1:44:20.920 killed it. We were the best band of the world, 1:44:21.000 --> 1:44:24.439 I thought at that point live and if you look 1:44:24.479 --> 1:44:27.960 at the success of You two and Peter Gabriel, it 1:44:28.120 --> 1:44:31.759 really grew out of Live Aid and that they also 1:44:32.680 --> 1:44:36.400 we're cognizant of the social issues and could talk coherently 1:44:36.400 --> 1:44:38.840 about those, and we could have done that as well. 1:44:39.400 --> 1:44:41.400 And I tried to get the David to do it, 1:44:41.520 --> 1:44:44.720 but he was too involved in scouting out locations or 1:44:44.800 --> 1:44:48.360 something in Texas and didn't want to do it. Then 1:44:48.439 --> 1:44:50.599 it was like, okay, well, we aren't touring, but we're 1:44:50.640 --> 1:44:54.479 making studio albums. And when we got up to Naked 1:44:55.520 --> 1:44:58.240 Um he had written some songs, but we said, we 1:44:58.360 --> 1:45:00.640 like what we've done. Two albums of you of just 1:45:00.800 --> 1:45:02.519 your songs, when why don't we go back to the 1:45:03.439 --> 1:45:07.599 model of speaking in tongues and remain in light, which 1:45:07.640 --> 1:45:09.040 I don't think he was. I think he was a 1:45:09.120 --> 1:45:11.760 little bit annoyed by that. It's interesting when he came 1:45:11.800 --> 1:45:14.760 out with I think it was Ray Momo, he said 1:45:14.800 --> 1:45:16.760 they were the same songs, but they didn't sound the 1:45:16.800 --> 1:45:19.439 same at all to me. I was in the middle 1:45:19.479 --> 1:45:22.160 of producing the Boudin's at the same time. I just 1:45:22.320 --> 1:45:26.240 had a baby with my wife, so I sure had 1:45:26.240 --> 1:45:29.000 a lot on my mind. But we went off to 1:45:29.600 --> 1:45:32.280 uh to Paris and just had a great time making 1:45:32.320 --> 1:45:36.040 this record and Wally Battery who introduced us to a 1:45:36.120 --> 1:45:40.439 lot of African musicians, and I knew a fellas manager, 1:45:40.560 --> 1:45:46.800 so I was also finding musicians and uh, it was 1:45:46.880 --> 1:45:50.560 great fun there. Um, but I could see that, you know, 1:45:50.720 --> 1:45:56.519 David also had met Bonnie, and Bonnie I think was 1:45:56.640 --> 1:46:02.920 reinforcing red david career. It will say more in the 1:46:03.160 --> 1:46:06.200 art world rather than the rocket world. Rocket rolled world 1:46:06.360 --> 1:46:10.479 was a better avenue for him to go to pursue 1:46:10.680 --> 1:46:14.120 his many interests. And I think that when he got 1:46:14.160 --> 1:46:19.559 on the cover of Time magazine as a you know, filmmaker, musician, artist, 1:46:20.120 --> 1:46:22.200 I don't know what else, dance or whatever it said. 1:46:23.479 --> 1:46:25.880 By this point he had his own office and I 1:46:26.040 --> 1:46:27.800 was like, Wow, this is going to be very hard 1:46:28.640 --> 1:46:31.360 because He's really used to having people now around him 1:46:31.400 --> 1:46:35.320 that always say yes or are very careful where they 1:46:35.360 --> 1:46:38.759 say no. One of the great things about a band 1:46:39.240 --> 1:46:43.320 is you have the honesty of people like don't way 1:46:43.320 --> 1:46:46.200 am I going to do that? And I think the bands, 1:46:47.240 --> 1:46:49.720 uh I have only storious about bands. I think the 1:46:49.800 --> 1:46:55.000 bands are the only successful communist art for UM, because 1:46:55.160 --> 1:46:58.880 it really is can be a group decision. There was 1:46:58.920 --> 1:47:01.800 a visual group that around Victor Vassarelli called the g 1:47:02.080 --> 1:47:04.919 R a V that did optical art at the forties, 1:47:05.560 --> 1:47:11.120 but eventually Vassarelli got discovered as the major uh UM 1:47:13.240 --> 1:47:15.840 talent there. And it's sort of so it broke down. 1:47:17.439 --> 1:47:19.599 But what do you have your own office and you're 1:47:19.840 --> 1:47:25.040 having people who are always supportive? You know, it's sort 1:47:25.080 --> 1:47:26.840 of like the brothers and sisters that are a pain 1:47:26.880 --> 1:47:28.800 in the ass. It's like this, God, do I have 1:47:28.880 --> 1:47:32.200 to deal with them again? So, you know, once he 1:47:32.280 --> 1:47:33.720 was on the cover of Time, I knew that it 1:47:33.760 --> 1:47:36.360 would be a very it would be hard to keep 1:47:36.400 --> 1:47:40.000 it together. David, of course, is filled with ideas. He's 1:47:40.120 --> 1:47:46.040 really really good at efficiently using and sometimes reusing as ideas. 1:47:47.080 --> 1:47:50.080 You know, I learned an immense amount about how to 1:47:50.280 --> 1:47:53.360 do certain things from both Jonathan and David. It's really 1:47:53.439 --> 1:47:57.920 interesting how you'll have an epiphany about something you've been 1:47:57.920 --> 1:48:00.519 struggling with and then you watch somebody else doing you're like, oh, 1:48:00.720 --> 1:48:02.840 I could do it that way. I go all the 1:48:02.880 --> 1:48:09.160 way back to I was in kindergarten and the the 1:48:09.479 --> 1:48:13.120 brother of the the guy who had the recording studio 1:48:13.160 --> 1:48:15.880 and the bomb shelter, who was one of my closest friends, 1:48:16.040 --> 1:48:23.519 was this sort of precocious artistic genius. And the teacher 1:48:23.560 --> 1:48:26.280 in kindergarten asked everybody in the class to draw a cat, 1:48:27.320 --> 1:48:31.920 and everybody draw a cat with like, you know, your 1:48:32.040 --> 1:48:36.960 arms straight out like like pegs. But Michael drew it 1:48:37.120 --> 1:48:39.360 like with the cat running like the legs were bent, 1:48:40.280 --> 1:48:42.840 and the teachers showed it to us, like what's different 1:48:42.880 --> 1:48:46.680 about Michael's drawings than you yours? And then kind of 1:48:47.400 --> 1:48:50.360 some people didn't even notice, and it was like and 1:48:50.439 --> 1:48:54.240 it was like, wow, first of all, I'll never draw 1:48:54.280 --> 1:48:57.680 a cat the same, but I've got to look more carefully. 1:48:57.840 --> 1:49:03.000 It's like, is that I'm really look really look hard, 1:49:03.600 --> 1:49:05.400 and so I think that, you know, there have been 1:49:05.439 --> 1:49:08.920 many times in my life where I've met someone and 1:49:09.120 --> 1:49:11.640 sometimes by helping them do things, it's allowed me to 1:49:11.680 --> 1:49:13.519 go like, well, I can do this now I know 1:49:13.640 --> 1:49:15.360 with the route for myself to do it when I've 1:49:15.360 --> 1:49:17.560 been struggling to find the solution to how to do it. 1:49:18.080 --> 1:49:20.200 So both David and Jonathan were inspiring to me in 1:49:20.240 --> 1:49:26.479 that way. So how did you handle emotionally the end 1:49:26.520 --> 1:49:29.920 of the Talking Goods. Well, I had already started making 1:49:30.000 --> 1:49:33.280 solo records and I'd already started becoming a music producer, 1:49:34.120 --> 1:49:39.960 so I just kept going with that. And financially, how 1:49:40.000 --> 1:49:42.240 has it worked out having been a member of Talking 1:49:42.320 --> 1:49:46.800 Heads record royalties which are historically poor songwriting. To what 1:49:46.920 --> 1:49:49.519 degree on how has it been working for you? Well, 1:49:49.600 --> 1:49:52.519 I my mother said, never talked about money, so I'm 1:49:52.520 --> 1:49:55.120 going to be a little bit cautious about this. Um 1:49:56.439 --> 1:50:00.439 it goes up and down. Talky has seen a resurgence lately, 1:50:00.600 --> 1:50:03.559 so it's gone up. As you know. I've been involved 1:50:03.600 --> 1:50:08.040 in a bunch of companies which have some have been 1:50:08.200 --> 1:50:10.519 pretty successful. Those are the kind of things where you 1:50:10.600 --> 1:50:12.719 work ten years on something and then you have a payday. 1:50:13.880 --> 1:50:16.800 But between the two things, we've managed to have a 1:50:16.960 --> 1:50:24.720 very nice life and not overly extravagant but also comfortable, 1:50:24.840 --> 1:50:28.840 So no complaints. And do you know about my snake 1:50:28.920 --> 1:50:32.360 bite company? Do I know about what my company that 1:50:32.479 --> 1:50:37.200 has a antidote for snake bites? No, So I founded 1:50:37.240 --> 1:50:39.280 a company about ten years ago which is going to 1:50:39.439 --> 1:50:45.519 revolutionize the world. Um, mosquitoes killed the most people. Humans 1:50:45.600 --> 1:50:49.240 kill the next most people, and snakes are third. Snakes 1:50:49.320 --> 1:50:52.800 kill a thousand people a year, a may more than 1:50:52.880 --> 1:50:56.200 half a million people a year. Anti Venom is a 1:50:56.360 --> 1:51:01.800 very incomplete and sometimes dangerous therapy, causing anapylactic shock and 1:51:01.880 --> 1:51:06.360 other issues. And we have developed a antidote for a 1:51:06.439 --> 1:51:09.640 particular toxin that is found in almost every snake, but 1:51:09.760 --> 1:51:12.519 one that's very noxious and that also has an effect 1:51:13.160 --> 1:51:17.599 on your general immune UH response to the snake bite. 1:51:18.280 --> 1:51:21.760 Sometimes it's the immune response that kills you, not the 1:51:21.880 --> 1:51:25.559 bite itself. This would be akin to you die from shock, 1:51:25.920 --> 1:51:29.479 not the car accident. So we have an oral and 1:51:29.600 --> 1:51:32.719 an ivy formulation. We are in clinical trials in India 1:51:32.760 --> 1:51:37.439 and the United States just finishing them up and hopefully 1:51:37.520 --> 1:51:39.160 it will be on the market. And know if you 1:51:39.439 --> 1:51:42.320 will get FDA approval and we'll be on the market. 1:51:42.680 --> 1:51:45.920 You involved with garage band. How do you get involved with, 1:51:47.000 --> 1:51:51.160 you know, a venoms anti venom situation. Well, I had 1:51:51.200 --> 1:51:55.080 met these neuroscientists and I had this lovely party in 1:51:55.280 --> 1:51:57.320 June and there are all these smart people in my 1:51:58.560 --> 1:52:03.599 my kitchen, and I said, does anyone have a great 1:52:03.640 --> 1:52:06.720 idea that they haven't done anything with here? And this 1:52:07.120 --> 1:52:09.000 person I never met, who was a friend of this 1:52:09.160 --> 1:52:12.600 neuroscientist doctor, and he goes, I do it was a 1:52:12.680 --> 1:52:16.000 totally different idea about snake bites. In fact, he even 1:52:16.080 --> 1:52:18.000 tested on himself that there was a whole thing we 1:52:18.120 --> 1:52:21.080 I had filmed at a hospital where he became paralyzed 1:52:22.120 --> 1:52:23.840 and then there was a different treatment. It was only 1:52:23.920 --> 1:52:26.280 for neurotoxic snink bites at that time, but now we 1:52:26.400 --> 1:52:29.600 came up with something better. We just did a b 1:52:29.840 --> 1:52:32.400 round where we raised a bunch of money. We've got 1:52:32.479 --> 1:52:34.320 a lot of money from the US government because the 1:52:34.439 --> 1:52:36.680 military is really interested in it. It's been a ten 1:52:36.760 --> 1:52:40.680 year path, ten your path where the general scientists in 1:52:40.760 --> 1:52:45.040 the in the snake bite community said it will never work. 1:52:45.120 --> 1:52:47.599 You guys are crazy. Do they all embrace it now? 1:52:47.960 --> 1:52:55.080 It's been remarkable. So how did you end up producing records? Well, 1:52:55.160 --> 1:52:57.880 as I said, Nona. Hendricks asked me. First, we shared 1:52:57.920 --> 1:53:03.439 a hairdresser addresser suggesting me and I had become friends 1:53:03.479 --> 1:53:06.439 with with Busta Jones, which is how I met Bernie Warrell. 1:53:07.479 --> 1:53:09.120 And he and I were like going out in New 1:53:09.200 --> 1:53:13.880 York and abusing ourselves, will say, and trying to meet 1:53:14.280 --> 1:53:19.519 meet Curls. And he had made a solo record, and 1:53:19.560 --> 1:53:21.519 I helped him with that, and then he helped me 1:53:22.040 --> 1:53:24.920 with the production of Nona. And then it was like 1:53:25.040 --> 1:53:26.720 I had been watching, you know, and I had been 1:53:26.760 --> 1:53:29.240 watching Tony bon Jovi, and I was like, I could 1:53:29.320 --> 1:53:34.000 do this. So I still started doing it a little more. 1:53:34.080 --> 1:53:36.200 And then when I got out to the studio, so 1:53:36.360 --> 1:53:38.000 the next thing I was really doing was my own 1:53:38.080 --> 1:53:41.000 solo record, which Alex Weir helped me on in the 1:53:41.080 --> 1:53:45.559 beginning quite a lot. And you know, I was teaching 1:53:45.640 --> 1:53:48.160 the engineer the things to do, and I was the producer, 1:53:48.240 --> 1:53:50.360 and so I just spent so much time in the studio. 1:53:51.520 --> 1:53:53.479 But I just became more and more comfortable, so that 1:53:53.560 --> 1:53:55.720 when I started doing the violent themes right and it's 1:53:55.720 --> 1:53:58.960 a material or the Bodine's, I had the compidence to 1:53:59.000 --> 1:54:00.599 go like, no, we're not to do it that way, 1:54:00.640 --> 1:54:03.880 we're doing it this way. And I also, you know, 1:54:04.400 --> 1:54:06.080 I have a scientific mind, so I was like I 1:54:06.200 --> 1:54:09.120 understo it, like how you patch it in the wiring. 1:54:09.200 --> 1:54:11.560 And I knew things about microphones and the patterns and 1:54:11.640 --> 1:54:14.439 the e q s and the compressors. I'm not an 1:54:14.479 --> 1:54:18.599 engineer because I never spent the time developing those skills, 1:54:18.720 --> 1:54:21.560 but I can talk through it and I understand it. 1:54:22.160 --> 1:54:25.160 And I also learned have really good engineers, So I 1:54:25.240 --> 1:54:30.080 always found really good people. And did your phone just 1:54:30.160 --> 1:54:32.680 start ringing or do you have a manager or somebody 1:54:32.720 --> 1:54:34.720 putting out the word or whatever you ran into somebody 1:54:34.760 --> 1:54:37.280 say hey, I could do your record well. After I did, 1:54:38.120 --> 1:54:42.040 uh crash the Stummies and Throwing Copper, which at the 1:54:42.160 --> 1:54:44.200 end of now the two biggest records I ever. I mean, 1:54:44.560 --> 1:54:47.040 Throwing Coppers sold more records than all the talking As 1:54:47.120 --> 1:54:52.800 records combined, right the live record. After that I wrecked, 1:54:52.880 --> 1:54:56.400 my phone wouldn't stop ringing. But I did have a manager, 1:54:56.480 --> 1:54:58.320 but there was more. She was more of a gatekeeper 1:54:58.440 --> 1:55:02.440 than it. Now what Actually, my my production career took 1:55:02.480 --> 1:55:05.920 a hit by starting garage band dot com because you know, 1:55:05.920 --> 1:55:08.120 I produced a few records for garage band that never 1:55:08.240 --> 1:55:13.160 came out actually quite wonderful, and it stopped me from 1:55:14.280 --> 1:55:16.920 You're all as good as your last hit. The good 1:55:16.960 --> 1:55:19.680 thing about being a producer is that you do three 1:55:19.800 --> 1:55:22.520 or four records a year, so you're rolling the dice 1:55:22.640 --> 1:55:25.920 four times because there's so many ways that a band 1:55:26.360 --> 1:55:29.040 or a record can fail. I mean, I've started this 1:55:29.120 --> 1:55:33.240 conversation by let's say mistakes that the record company makes. 1:55:33.360 --> 1:55:37.160 But it's mistake you know, I produced a band and sudding. 1:55:37.200 --> 1:55:39.080 They don't get along with each other. That happened, the 1:55:39.120 --> 1:55:44.120 violent fans, they broke up, they become they get into drugs, 1:55:44.360 --> 1:55:46.880 billy goat and it stops working. And so there's a 1:55:46.960 --> 1:55:50.760 lot of ways that things can fail. So rolling the 1:55:50.840 --> 1:55:53.480 dice more than once is really helpful. I had also 1:55:53.600 --> 1:55:56.760 done an analysis of who made money in the music business, 1:55:57.840 --> 1:56:00.840 and boy playing in a band was way down on 1:56:00.960 --> 1:56:07.800 the list. Top is songwriters and owning publishing, second is 1:56:07.960 --> 1:56:15.160 managers and and producers because they don't have cross collateralization 1:56:15.440 --> 1:56:18.320 with their records. You can do five dogs and do 1:56:18.440 --> 1:56:20.200 one hit record, and you can pay it on the hit. 1:56:21.000 --> 1:56:23.360 If you own a record label, you've got to admortize 1:56:23.360 --> 1:56:25.520 all of them across each other. If you're a band, 1:56:25.720 --> 1:56:28.080 you have to balance out your losses with your gains. 1:56:28.520 --> 1:56:32.120 But as a producer, as a manager and a manager 1:56:32.240 --> 1:56:35.040 gonna have multiple acts on the road at the same time, 1:56:35.400 --> 1:56:38.120 and he gets paid on growth. That's a really good gick. 1:56:38.600 --> 1:56:40.440 So I did this angle, like well, of those gigs, 1:56:40.480 --> 1:56:43.120 I can be a producer. I'm a songwriter, but I'm 1:56:43.120 --> 1:56:50.160 a slow songwriter and um and I wish I'd done 1:56:50.200 --> 1:56:52.280 that more. But I got so successful as a producer 1:56:52.320 --> 1:56:55.040 it just started to take up all my time. You know, 1:56:55.080 --> 1:56:58.600 I worked constantly, but I got to do a lot 1:56:58.680 --> 1:57:01.760 of great records. And then nineties was a fantastic time 1:57:01.800 --> 1:57:05.840 to be making records. You know, the CD sales were 1:57:06.320 --> 1:57:09.040 really good, so you could make good money at it. 1:57:09.080 --> 1:57:11.120 And I got to make a lot of records that 1:57:11.160 --> 1:57:13.000 I'm very proud of. I go back and listen to 1:57:14.000 --> 1:57:16.080 you know, I might have a fifty records I made, 1:57:16.200 --> 1:57:22.520 so it's pretty great. So you talked about looking for girls. 1:57:23.360 --> 1:57:27.840 To what degree did you partake in the rock and 1:57:28.040 --> 1:57:32.560 roll lifestyle, drugs, women, etcetera. Well, I was a lot more, 1:57:32.960 --> 1:57:35.200 a lot more cautious about it. When we were a 1:57:35.280 --> 1:57:39.600 four piece but when the big band got together, there 1:57:39.760 --> 1:57:42.320 was there were so many of us to go out. 1:57:42.680 --> 1:57:44.400 I got a little more, I got a little wilder. 1:57:46.360 --> 1:57:49.960 And what is your relationship with the other three members 1:57:50.000 --> 1:57:54.600 of Talking Heads? Now, I think I'm on good relationships 1:57:54.640 --> 1:57:58.560 with everybody. I don't think that I'm I mean, David 1:57:58.640 --> 1:58:02.240 and I are like on a relationship that like if 1:58:02.240 --> 1:58:04.440 I when I'm passing through New York, I give him 1:58:04.480 --> 1:58:08.560 a call. Um, It's much more likely that I give 1:58:08.680 --> 1:58:10.520 him a call than he gives me a call. But well, 1:58:10.800 --> 1:58:14.160 you know, we regularly have dinner, you know, wheel or 1:58:14.320 --> 1:58:17.320 lunch or something like that. You know, I went and 1:58:17.360 --> 1:58:19.800 saw American Utopia on Broadway, and I also saw it 1:58:19.880 --> 1:58:21.960 when it was a road show, when it came through 1:58:21.960 --> 1:58:26.320 San Francisco, much tighter when he was able to be 1:58:26.360 --> 1:58:30.200 in the same theater. You know, it really improved a lot. Um. 1:58:31.720 --> 1:58:34.640 You know, I have a very frank relationship with David. 1:58:34.680 --> 1:58:36.320 I mean when he was decided that he was going 1:58:36.360 --> 1:58:38.920 to go out on his own and basically the band 1:58:39.080 --> 1:58:42.000 was going to end, and I said to my I said, 1:58:42.040 --> 1:58:43.960 I think David, I think you're making a mistake. I 1:58:44.080 --> 1:58:47.040 think you get all the credit for the success of 1:58:47.080 --> 1:58:50.680 the Talking Heads, so you have no pressure on your 1:58:50.760 --> 1:58:53.560 solo records as long as you get a good review. 1:58:53.760 --> 1:58:57.240 Mo Austen goes, God, my genius, just does it again, 1:58:58.440 --> 1:59:00.360 I do a solo record. They want me to do 1:59:01.840 --> 1:59:04.680 all this press that maybe in Togy Heads we would 1:59:04.760 --> 1:59:06.920 turn down and want me to be on a TV 1:59:07.040 --> 1:59:10.640 show that maybe I found embarrassing. But I'm I'm judged 1:59:10.760 --> 1:59:14.440 on the financial success of my record. You have the 1:59:14.520 --> 1:59:19.080 glorious advantage that you don't have to have that. You know, 1:59:19.240 --> 1:59:22.640 we could keep the band together for working six months 1:59:22.680 --> 1:59:26.200 every two years. It seems like a perfect world. He guys, well, 1:59:26.320 --> 1:59:30.480 maybe I gotta learn that. So that's what happened. Now 1:59:30.720 --> 1:59:33.839 he has not had anywhere near the level of commercial 1:59:34.000 --> 1:59:37.640 success with new music since the end of the talk. 1:59:37.720 --> 1:59:42.680 He gets, No, there's a lot of artist success, but 1:59:42.800 --> 1:59:45.960 I certainly know not commercial systems. Not not the commercial 1:59:46.040 --> 1:59:48.320 success that either Chris a tied To did with the 1:59:48.400 --> 1:59:50.880 Tom Time Club or certainly I did with my production career. 1:59:52.960 --> 1:59:56.840 So in the time you have left anywhere from a 1:59:57.040 --> 2:00:01.320 second to thirty years, what's that look, Well, I gotta 2:00:01.360 --> 2:00:03.840 finish this tour that's coming up. That's the first thing 2:00:04.600 --> 2:00:08.440 and I want to see, uh opheis that's the name 2:00:08.480 --> 2:00:14.840 of the snake Bite company become a uh a household name. 2:00:15.560 --> 2:00:19.440 Uh It has other possible treatments that actually could be 2:00:19.600 --> 2:00:22.640 a treatment for acute respiratory distress syndrome, which is what 2:00:22.720 --> 2:00:25.560 everybody ties from eights from or in the beginning did 2:00:26.120 --> 2:00:29.560 We did a small clinical trial about that. I had 2:00:29.560 --> 2:00:31.920 another company that I started called red Crow, that I 2:00:32.480 --> 2:00:36.600 sold to a Lira Health earlier this year. But I've 2:00:37.400 --> 2:00:39.520 at this point I'm sort of concentrating on going back 2:00:39.560 --> 2:00:42.480 to music and not getting a little further away from 2:00:42.640 --> 2:00:45.720 investing your tech. I was also on the board of 2:00:45.760 --> 2:00:51.640 directors of a very cunning edge microprocessor company called micro Unity. 2:00:52.560 --> 2:00:55.840 We were involved in a gigantic lawsuits with Intel and 2:00:56.000 --> 2:01:01.520 Dell and then all the smartphone manufacturers. We realized nearly 2:01:02.400 --> 2:01:04.720 since you wanted to talk about money, we realized nearly 2:01:04.960 --> 2:01:09.400 three quarters of a billion dollars in patent infringement. That 2:01:09.520 --> 2:01:13.120 was a ten year lawsuit. I learned an incredible amount 2:01:13.240 --> 2:01:15.320 from this legal team that I got to be on. 2:01:16.280 --> 2:01:18.040 I think my basic thing is I want to keep 2:01:18.080 --> 2:01:21.160 myself interested. I'm not I'm interested in music. I'm interested 2:01:21.200 --> 2:01:24.360 in producing. I'm interested in art. I'm also really interested 2:01:24.400 --> 2:01:28.320 in science. I was involved with the venture group called 2:01:28.400 --> 2:01:31.800 Van Earth that was about climate mitigation. We have these 2:01:31.880 --> 2:01:35.360 theories that we think that soil and something called biochar, 2:01:35.560 --> 2:01:38.760 which is based upon the terra prey to soils that 2:01:39.600 --> 2:01:45.680 the Amerindians in Brazil did pre Columbian uh was a 2:01:45.880 --> 2:01:49.920 sink for carbon and we think it's part of the 2:01:50.000 --> 2:01:54.440 solution to global warming. So we started companies and tried 2:01:54.480 --> 2:01:58.400 to develop I spent about four years on that. But 2:01:58.520 --> 2:02:01.680 you know, I'm concerned about climate change and I was 2:02:01.760 --> 2:02:04.320 trying to help save the world that way. You know 2:02:05.920 --> 2:02:08.640 what's kind of nice. It's very frustrating because everything moves 2:02:08.680 --> 2:02:11.840 so goddamn slow. I mean, what's really great about music 2:02:12.040 --> 2:02:13.640 is like at least you can make a record in 2:02:13.640 --> 2:02:15.160 a certain period of time and it comes out, and 2:02:15.160 --> 2:02:17.160 you can see what happens when you make a movie 2:02:17.240 --> 2:02:19.440 and it comes out. You know. I did these movies 2:02:19.520 --> 2:02:23.160 Take Me to the River I did. Uh. There's another 2:02:23.200 --> 2:02:25.000 one called Take Me to the River Nola that I 2:02:25.080 --> 2:02:26.920 had a little bit to do with. I did a 2:02:27.000 --> 2:02:29.680 movie with Kenny Wayne Shephard called Ten Days Out Blues 2:02:29.760 --> 2:02:32.240 from the back roads, which was my idea for a 2:02:32.360 --> 2:02:35.840 double trouble and Kenny Wayne. We traveled around playing with 2:02:36.520 --> 2:02:41.760 unknown blues musicians and also like BB King in Indianola, Mississippi, 2:02:41.800 --> 2:02:44.040 which is where he's from, at a juke joint out 2:02:44.040 --> 2:02:47.480 in the middle of the woods. What I want to 2:02:47.520 --> 2:02:50.080 do is just keep myself doing interesting things and things 2:02:50.160 --> 2:02:55.280 that that that my mind is challenged to do, and 2:02:55.400 --> 2:02:58.960 so doing the same thing forever it starts to get boring. 2:02:59.520 --> 2:03:02.440 That was a thing that music. As much as I 2:03:02.520 --> 2:03:07.160 love it, I think music has gone from being the 2:03:07.400 --> 2:03:11.360 centerpiece of philosophical engagement for our world, which it was 2:03:11.440 --> 2:03:14.240 in the late sixties and early seventies, to be the 2:03:14.360 --> 2:03:18.280 backgrounds of everybody's life. And you know that people talk 2:03:18.320 --> 2:03:21.000 about their playlists and sometimes a lot of their collection 2:03:21.040 --> 2:03:23.720 of how many songs they have, two thirds of which 2:03:23.720 --> 2:03:28.520 they've never listened to. It's it's it's become commodified. Obviously 2:03:29.120 --> 2:03:33.280 with streaming at least it's getting better now, But quality 2:03:33.640 --> 2:03:36.480 got worse it didn't, You know. We were always trying 2:03:36.480 --> 2:03:38.560 to make things sound better. I would work with Warner 2:03:38.640 --> 2:03:43.040 Brothers about their the formulations on their cassettes to make 2:03:43.080 --> 2:03:45.760 the cassette sound better. And I go down to the 2:03:45.840 --> 2:03:48.400 basement Warner Brothers and sit and listened to like eight 2:03:48.480 --> 2:03:51.040 different formulas and to try and choose which one we 2:03:51.120 --> 2:03:54.920 would put our cassettes out on you Again, this was 2:03:55.000 --> 2:03:56.800 something might go down on the basement. The Warm brothers 2:03:56.840 --> 2:03:59.000 and artists never come down here. What are you doing 2:03:59.040 --> 2:04:02.640 down here? But it's like I enjoyed the technology. I 2:04:02.760 --> 2:04:06.800 enjoyed the whole process of what it takes to go 2:04:06.960 --> 2:04:10.040 all the way from singing the song to it being pressed, 2:04:10.240 --> 2:04:14.000 to it being a duplication plant, and all the places 2:04:14.040 --> 2:04:15.920 that could go wrong, and I wanted to know about 2:04:15.960 --> 2:04:17.400 it and want to know how to fix it if 2:04:17.440 --> 2:04:23.040 I had to. Well, you know, it's just really funny 2:04:23.200 --> 2:04:28.200 talking to you, because generally speaking, music is a dumb business, 2:04:28.920 --> 2:04:32.440 and you're anything but dumb. Not that there aren't smart 2:04:32.520 --> 2:04:35.560 people in it, but a lot of these conversations I'm 2:04:35.600 --> 2:04:39.160 sure you've had them, are very frustrating. So it's been 2:04:40.080 --> 2:04:43.560 very stimulating talking to you. Oh, I've enjoyed it very much, 2:04:43.640 --> 2:04:46.720 Thank you very much. It was great a lot to 2:04:46.760 --> 2:04:49.840 do it again until next time. This is Bob left 2:04:49.880 --> 2:04:50.120 set