1
00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:12,640
Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

2
00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:18,120
Speaker 1: My guest today Jerry Harrison, needs no introduction. You were

3
00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,160
Speaker 1: just talking about having met before, and Jerry started talking

4
00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:27,240
Speaker 1: about his problem with record companies. Jerry tell us the story.

5
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,519
Speaker 1: So I was producing a band called Pure that was

6
00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,720
Speaker 1: from Vancouver and their manager was one of the organizers

7
00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,519
Speaker 1: of Music West, which is where we met. And the

8
00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,080
Speaker 1: band was called Pierre, and they had a song called Pierre,

9
00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,279
Speaker 1: And so what did the record company put out as

10
00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:55,640
Speaker 1: the first single? Blast? And then, of course record companies

11
00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,440
Speaker 1: being record companies, Blast didn't do quite as well as

12
00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,160
Speaker 1: they had hoped, so they spent by the time they

13
00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,480
Speaker 1: got around to Pure. Pure came out in Canada, but

14
00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,600
Speaker 1: never in the United States. It's like, you have a

15
00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,840
Speaker 1: song and a band with the same name. Don't you

16
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 1: think that that's a great advertising technique. Let's, you know,

17
00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,520
Speaker 1: put the money behind that. Everybody will know the song

18
00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,720
Speaker 1: and they'll know the name of the band. But you know,

19
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,440
Speaker 1: it's sort of like horses and water. So what has

20
00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,840
Speaker 1: been your experience in your lengthy career with record companies.

21
00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes they're very very astute and very good, and but

22
00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:38,200
Speaker 1: many times they outthink themselves and they they never want

23
00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,680
Speaker 1: to spend money in advance, and so therefore they missed

24
00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:47,360
Speaker 1: gigantic copper opportunities. And the one time that I overcame

25
00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:55,000
Speaker 1: that was when when Tony has recorded Little Creatures. Ah,

26
00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,520
Speaker 1: David had been making our videos, so he had he

27
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,160
Speaker 1: had were with Tony Basil on once in a lifetime.

28
00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,400
Speaker 1: She had done cross on him painless. And then he

29
00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:11,000
Speaker 1: worked with Julia something I can't remember her last name

30
00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,920
Speaker 1: on bringing down the House. So I went to Gary

31
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,959
Speaker 1: kirkerstar manager, and I said, we need we're a band,

32
00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,480
Speaker 1: we need all be involved in making videos. We want

33
00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:27,200
Speaker 1: to make four videos for Little Creatures. He goes, well,

34
00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,280
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers never go for that, and I said, well,

35
00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,160
Speaker 1: then tell him we're not turning in the album. And

36
00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,840
Speaker 1: so we went to Warner Brothers and he said what

37
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,560
Speaker 1: I said, and he said, I got you three. So

38
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,920
Speaker 1: we all did storyboards for the various songs that they

39
00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:49,000
Speaker 1: thought should be videos, and the first video, strangely really

40
00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,720
Speaker 1: to me, was the Lady Don't Mind, and it was

41
00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,200
Speaker 1: a mixture of something that Tina had come up with

42
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 1: and what I came up with. And Uh, I was

43
00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,320
Speaker 1: good friends with Jim jarme As who made Stranger Than

44
00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,160
Speaker 1: para Ice and brought him on as basically the director,

45
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,720
Speaker 1: but who I kind of co directed it with Uh.

46
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,679
Speaker 1: Chris and Tina did with Teddy baff for Lucas Stay

47
00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:14,600
Speaker 1: Up Late, and then David did with Steven Johnson Road

48
00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,960
Speaker 1: to Nowhere. Then Warner Brothers decided that and She Was

49
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,280
Speaker 1: would be the first single, so they hired Jim Blashfield

50
00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,040
Speaker 1: to do a He was sort of did a kind

51
00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,919
Speaker 1: of cartoon version for for videos. So in the end

52
00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,359
Speaker 1: we walked in When the album was released with four videos,

53
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,400
Speaker 1: we also got like small budgets like forty dollars apiece.

54
00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,600
Speaker 1: But because we were conversant with how do you make

55
00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,200
Speaker 1: videos friends with people in that industry, we could do it.

56
00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,360
Speaker 1: That album was our biggest selling record. And the reason

57
00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,680
Speaker 1: it was a bigger biggest selling record is that MTV

58
00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,440
Speaker 1: always had a video ready to go when the when

59
00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,400
Speaker 1: the one that was sort of running out of steam,

60
00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:03,280
Speaker 1: there was another one to go and it you know,

61
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,040
Speaker 1: and I tried to tell this too when I was

62
00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,280
Speaker 1: producing the violent films. It's like you have this song

63
00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,640
Speaker 1: old Mother Reagan, it lasts for one minute. Go to

64
00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:16,599
Speaker 1: the U c L A U c L A film

65
00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,200
Speaker 1: class and say you're gonna give ten thousand dollars and

66
00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,560
Speaker 1: you want every student to make a version of old

67
00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,040
Speaker 1: Mother Reagan. Men picked the top four and play him

68
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,320
Speaker 1: in a row. But they don't do it. You know,

69
00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:34,719
Speaker 1: I had uh. I was producing uh big hitan the Monsters,

70
00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,159
Speaker 1: and I got John Lee Hooker to be on Boom

71
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,680
Speaker 1: Boom Boom. This is amazing version. I don't know if

72
00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,760
Speaker 1: you've heard it. It's a theme of a TV show

73
00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,880
Speaker 1: which I can't recall. Right. The second so I knew

74
00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,880
Speaker 1: John Lee Hooker's manager. He was from Milwaukee as I am,

75
00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:50,359
Speaker 1: and I said would he be in a video? And

76
00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,479
Speaker 1: he goes, yeah, I gotta pay him, but sure. So

77
00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,800
Speaker 1: I went to Giant Records, which was earning Ace Offs Wreck,

78
00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,280
Speaker 1: and he goes, well, we're putting our money into this

79
00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,280
Speaker 1: other single maybe in a few months. Well, John Lee

80
00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,120
Speaker 1: died a month later, so we would have been the first.

81
00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,680
Speaker 1: We would have been the last recording of John Lee Hooker.

82
00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:13,960
Speaker 1: MTV would have played at NonStop. But you know there,

83
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,760
Speaker 1: you know, not thinking ahead. They they missed the vote

84
00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,600
Speaker 1: and missed and missed making a lot of money. If

85
00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:28,560
Speaker 1: you ask me. Okay, at this late date, because you

86
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,360
Speaker 1: were in graduate school when you all to be joined

87
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,880
Speaker 1: talking heads, you feel confident in all your decisions. Would

88
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,680
Speaker 1: you like to replay any of this? You can't, but

89
00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,479
Speaker 1: if you could, I think I would have been a

90
00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,480
Speaker 1: great architect. But I'm very happy with the decisions I've made.

91
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,240
Speaker 1: So let's go back to that. How did you meet

92
00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,719
Speaker 1: Jonathan Richmond? He came in my apartment with There was

93
00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 1: a contingent of Andy Warhol superstars that lived in Cambridge.

94
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,600
Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever read the book about

95
00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,680
Speaker 1: Edie Sedgwick. Yeah I read it. Yeah, so she was

96
00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,520
Speaker 1: there just a little bit before that. But there was

97
00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:11,479
Speaker 1: this guy, ed Hood may Rickard was around. I think

98
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,040
Speaker 1: that actually Andy Paley was part of that. So I

99
00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:18,280
Speaker 1: came in with Jonathan and baha, stop for a second.

100
00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:23,520
Speaker 1: How did you know all these people? Uh? I was

101
00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,440
Speaker 1: just part of being in a scene in Cambridge. Okay,

102
00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 1: well let's just start there. So you go to Harvard undergrad.

103
00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,719
Speaker 1: I mean some people sit in their dorm room and study.

104
00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,320
Speaker 1: Other people barely go to school. So you move from

105
00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,120
Speaker 1: Milwaukee to Harvard. Do you immediately say, and this is

106
00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,120
Speaker 1: a very you know tumultuous and also positive time. Do

107
00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,760
Speaker 1: you merely integrate yourself in the culture pretty much? And

108
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:50,960
Speaker 1: I played in a band and one of the guys

109
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,960
Speaker 1: who I played in a band with had been in

110
00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,080
Speaker 1: prep school at Putney with Andy Paley, and Andy, who

111
00:06:58,160 --> 00:06:59,880
Speaker 1: was hanging around in New York, had gotten to know

112
00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,000
Speaker 1: Danny Fields and various people in a sort of warhole

113
00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:09,880
Speaker 1: expanded group. So when he came up to Cambridge, I

114
00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,559
Speaker 1: think he probably introduced us first to some of these people.

115
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:18,400
Speaker 1: But we can't we fit in so and so we

116
00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,080
Speaker 1: would see them. And then Jonathan came in and he

117
00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:27,040
Speaker 1: was raving about the Velvet Underground album Loaded, and I

118
00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:32,120
Speaker 1: was making a film about alienation, and I went, Jonathan

119
00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,520
Speaker 1: seems to take energy and excitement from the things that

120
00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,520
Speaker 1: I think are alienating other people, which is sort of oh,

121
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,000
Speaker 1: you know, over corportization of society and stuff like that.

122
00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,600
Speaker 1: So the film had two thirds two people that were

123
00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,880
Speaker 1: sort of overwhelmed by what were the changes of society

124
00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,880
Speaker 1: and Jonathan, who was embracing it. So I filmed Jonathan

125
00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,320
Speaker 1: like driving along Route nine out in Native and stuff

126
00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,240
Speaker 1: like that, pointing out all the road signs. He loved

127
00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,840
Speaker 1: the new ones he hated and things like that. He's

128
00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,720
Speaker 1: generally the Jonathan Richmond philosophy. I recorded a concert of

129
00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,680
Speaker 1: him playing, and I was using that as the background

130
00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,680
Speaker 1: music for the movie. My roommate was Ernie Brooks, and

131
00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,360
Speaker 1: he kept coming and goes like, you know, this music

132
00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,960
Speaker 1: is sort of amazing. It just sort of can't get

133
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,680
Speaker 1: it out of my head. Meanwhile, Jonathan saw kindred spirits

134
00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,520
Speaker 1: and he started hanging around all the time. And so

135
00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,240
Speaker 1: actually Ernie and I dropped out of Harvard second semester

136
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,839
Speaker 1: senior year to join the Modern Lovers. Okay, slower at

137
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,680
Speaker 1: one point, let's go back to the Alienation movie. One

138
00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:47,360
Speaker 1: of the big differences between popular music today and the

139
00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,360
Speaker 1: area you're talking about was alienation was a core element. Yes,

140
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:57,880
Speaker 1: now you seem very rooted. Are you someone who feels alienated? No, No,

141
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:03,560
Speaker 1: I feel I've I don't feel alienated, but I feel

142
00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:09,120
Speaker 1: that sometimes my pherosophy what I believe about life at

143
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:15,600
Speaker 1: some of the new uh let's say, philosophical theories I'm

144
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,960
Speaker 1: pretty much a disagreement with. But I that's I disagree.

145
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,360
Speaker 1: I'm not alienated. Well, let's talk about the type you

146
00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,920
Speaker 1: because as we get older, we are more comfortable in

147
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,760
Speaker 1: our shoes and fit in and you know, and you've

148
00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,720
Speaker 1: built a career. But back then we use someone who

149
00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:39,080
Speaker 1: was you know, well he anti this and he antie that, Yeah,

150
00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,640
Speaker 1: it was. I had been in a in a band

151
00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,079
Speaker 1: in high school and then I've been an abandoned college.

152
00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:45,440
Speaker 1: But I never thought I was going to be a

153
00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,480
Speaker 1: professional musician. For a long time, I thought I was

154
00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:50,720
Speaker 1: gonna be a scientist, and then I was. I was

155
00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,400
Speaker 1: actually a painter for a while, and a sculptor and

156
00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:58,439
Speaker 1: a filmmaker and then but I always thought that architecture

157
00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,040
Speaker 1: might be where I was going to end up. And

158
00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,960
Speaker 1: I used to build things all the time, and I

159
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,360
Speaker 1: thought that I have a mathematical sense. I thought it

160
00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,439
Speaker 1: might be a good balance between what I had. However,

161
00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:14,160
Speaker 1: I felt in this in the sixties, in particular, that

162
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,840
Speaker 1: music determined the culture, and that I felt that like

163
00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,480
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan and the Beatles were more important than John

164
00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:27,160
Speaker 1: Kennedy as far as determining what people thought. So the

165
00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,520
Speaker 1: idea of ending up being a musician to me was

166
00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,240
Speaker 1: almost the highest thing to aspire to. I just didn't

167
00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,880
Speaker 1: think that I had the training as a musician to

168
00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,560
Speaker 1: be that. But when I met Jonathan and started and

169
00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,080
Speaker 1: then I went, Jonathan is playing something unlike anybody else

170
00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,400
Speaker 1: in the world, and this deserves to be heard. And

171
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,480
Speaker 1: I have a real place in this. I know how

172
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,240
Speaker 1: I can make this better. So just because I don't have,

173
00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,640
Speaker 1: you know, the training from the academy, it doesn't matter

174
00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,600
Speaker 1: at all all. I just had the right sensibility and therefore,

175
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,680
Speaker 1: and I'm and this is going to influence the world.

176
00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,240
Speaker 1: I have no idea how commercially successful it'll be, but

177
00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,680
Speaker 1: I know it's going to have the influence. And that's

178
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,160
Speaker 1: what I wanted to do. And frankly, it's the same

179
00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:16,720
Speaker 1: thing with the Toggy Heads is that when I met

180
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,400
Speaker 1: the Talking Heads, I went, nobody's doing this, and I

181
00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,040
Speaker 1: have a there's a place for me to make this

182
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,559
Speaker 1: even better and condemn it. I'm gonna do it. Okay,

183
00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,840
Speaker 1: let's talk about Jonathan himself. I happen to be a

184
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:33,760
Speaker 1: big fan. Only album that you're on, Pablo Picasso, etcetera.

185
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,959
Speaker 1: And Roadrunner. I always thought I'm gonna make an analogy,

186
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:42,840
Speaker 1: which is bad. Um. I have some history with Jene Simmons,

187
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,040
Speaker 1: and what shocked me about Gene Simmons is he is

188
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,040
Speaker 1: that guy. Most people there's two people, there's the front facing,

189
00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,840
Speaker 1: and then you know, everybody gets along. Not Gene Simmons.

190
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,360
Speaker 1: I always thought Jonathan Richmond was the same way, but

191
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,920
Speaker 1: now I think there's obvious he's something quirky, something different

192
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,959
Speaker 1: about We had that big opportunity. Those people don't get

193
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:10,360
Speaker 1: a second round with something about Mary. Whatever you know

194
00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:14,040
Speaker 1: is a guy. He doesn't appear or I hate to

195
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,600
Speaker 1: use word normal, but standard. Well, I absolutely agree with

196
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,880
Speaker 1: you that he's a unique person. In fact, he's showing

197
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,920
Speaker 1: up tomorrow night to do another album with me. I've

198
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,560
Speaker 1: done two albums. Have you heard the album saw I

199
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,640
Speaker 1: did with him? And there's a and and there's a

200
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,720
Speaker 1: follow up record. So I've had two more records with

201
00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,959
Speaker 1: him in the last few years. They're on Blue Arrow

202
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,400
Speaker 1: Records out of Cleveland. They are not on any streaming service.

203
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,400
Speaker 1: You have to kind of work to get him. But

204
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,280
Speaker 1: they're amazing and they're unlike any music being recorded right now.

205
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,160
Speaker 1: Right now, he's been down in Tucson doing recording reggae

206
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,440
Speaker 1: tone music and then we're going to add parts starting tomorrow.

207
00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:02,040
Speaker 1: Didn't I read something he got into construction, uh mason masonry.

208
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,400
Speaker 1: I love what he said about it. He goes, you know, Jerry, Ah,

209
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,480
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who are saying mason and

210
00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,480
Speaker 1: music is their hobby. I'm a musician and masonry is

211
00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:17,720
Speaker 1: my hobby. So someone like Jonathan Richmond, who never really

212
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,120
Speaker 1: sold any records and his music wasn't really covered, does

213
00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:26,160
Speaker 1: he have any money? He seems to have enough to

214
00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,520
Speaker 1: live the way he wants to live. He does, He's not.

215
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,440
Speaker 1: He certainly doesn't make decisions based upon trying to have

216
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,440
Speaker 1: enough have to make as much money as possible. He

217
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:41,160
Speaker 1: makes decisions. You know, he has a wife, he has

218
00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,200
Speaker 1: a daughter. It's a second life. And so I'm not

219
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,760
Speaker 1: saying that economic concerns don't affect him. Uh. He just

220
00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,800
Speaker 1: bought some property up in Chico. Until he's got a

221
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:55,760
Speaker 1: lot of I think he has a lot of construction

222
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,160
Speaker 1: to do. He's also been helping this architect of the

223
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,920
Speaker 1: masonry because he's very much into not using Portland's cement

224
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 1: or very little bit of it, which is the more

225
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,240
Speaker 1: modern way to bind bricks together, which is stronger. He

226
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:16,200
Speaker 1: likes the Roman lime lime mortar, where you like different

227
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,080
Speaker 1: mortar depending on whether it's in the sun and the

228
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,240
Speaker 1: shade but it lasts longer. So he has long discussions

229
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,120
Speaker 1: with this architect about what percentage of Portland cement and

230
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:31,960
Speaker 1: lime mortar to use and he loves it. Okay, why

231
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,920
Speaker 1: did he not break bigger? Because everything you're saying is true.

232
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember he had the song what rock

233
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:42,119
Speaker 1: in shopping center? I'm talking about balls, even having flags,

234
00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:48,800
Speaker 1: I mean, just incredible insight government center. Right? What why? Um?

235
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,440
Speaker 1: Was there something about him that he couldn't be bigger

236
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,920
Speaker 1: or it just wasn't in the carts. I think that

237
00:14:54,960 --> 00:15:00,880
Speaker 1: there was somewhat of an issue is that when we

238
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:06,360
Speaker 1: we should have made a record immediately, but we got

239
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,640
Speaker 1: so many offers from record companies and managers that it

240
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,920
Speaker 1: took us a year or so to try and sort

241
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,560
Speaker 1: it all out because we just were considered the next

242
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:26,560
Speaker 1: hot thing, and Jonathan was uh evolving, and he evolved

243
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,200
Speaker 1: away from the anger and the teenage angst that we

244
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,080
Speaker 1: would say that the first modern Lovers album UH so

245
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 1: beautifully captures. In addition, David Robinson, the drummer, is a perfectionist,

246
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,360
Speaker 1: so he was never satisfied with the recordings and he

247
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:51,480
Speaker 1: always wanted to make them exceptionally meticulous, and these were

248
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:56,840
Speaker 1: two very opposite tracks to be going down. David Robinson

249
00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,120
Speaker 1: basically took all the ideas he had for the Modern

250
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,560
Speaker 1: Lovers and he uh brought them to the Cars and

251
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,960
Speaker 1: that's the basis of the sound of the Cars. But

252
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,400
Speaker 1: staying with Jonathan Richmond, you drop out of college, you

253
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:16,200
Speaker 1: start playing with Jonathan Richmond, Walk me through what that

254
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,520
Speaker 1: period of time? How long until you sign a deal

255
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:25,600
Speaker 1: and you make this record? Well, So dropped out January

256
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:30,880
Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy one, joined the Modern Lovers. I was

257
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,480
Speaker 1: able to squeeze in the last semester of college while

258
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,520
Speaker 1: in the Modern Lovers, so I got to graduate. And

259
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,440
Speaker 1: in the spring of nineteen seventy two, Lillian Roxon, who

260
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:45,480
Speaker 1: wrote for the Daily Encyclopedia of Rock the Australians right,

261
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 1: wrote an article about us that just caused every manager

262
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,720
Speaker 1: and every record company to make a pilgrimage. We were

263
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 1: living in this small house in Cohasset, Massachusetts, because we

264
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,440
Speaker 1: would we were renting a summer house because we could

265
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,360
Speaker 1: play music there and be loud, and they had come

266
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,120
Speaker 1: down there, and we were making very little money. I mean,

267
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,200
Speaker 1: we were really broke. And I remember Alan Mason from

268
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,000
Speaker 1: from UH from A and M who made many trips

269
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,640
Speaker 1: came out and I find it that Alan don't take

270
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,199
Speaker 1: us out to dinner. Can you just buy us some

271
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,760
Speaker 1: groceries because we just try and eat as much as

272
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,600
Speaker 1: possible when but it's like it doesn't last, which he

273
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:34,720
Speaker 1: did and he was sleeping on the couch and stuff

274
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,919
Speaker 1: like that. But we had some very funny experiences there. Um,

275
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,480
Speaker 1: but you know, everyone from David Geffen to Steve Paul

276
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:48,639
Speaker 1: and Danny Fields too, Schiffmann and Larson too, five Davis came.

277
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,959
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it was it was so obviously

278
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,679
Speaker 1: it was very hard to make decisions because we were

279
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,840
Speaker 1: all these really good offers and we were trying to

280
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,040
Speaker 1: find the right thing between someone who had the power

281
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,600
Speaker 1: to make things happen, but also the belief of the

282
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,320
Speaker 1: band and the book and you might say the honesty

283
00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,840
Speaker 1: that we were looking for, and that was it was

284
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,200
Speaker 1: a tricky thing for us to negotiate. So how did

285
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,440
Speaker 1: you ultimately make a decision? What decision did you make? Well?

286
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,040
Speaker 1: We went with Warner Brothers with John Kle and a

287
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,760
Speaker 1: guy named David Burson who was always uh who would

288
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 1: have been more Austin's kids tutors and he had been

289
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,600
Speaker 1: given a job as a special assistant to my lost

290
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 1: and the trouble was that Jonathan had been moving, had

291
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 1: been moving from a song like uh, modern World or

292
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,840
Speaker 1: she cracked into a song like Hey, their little insect

293
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,840
Speaker 1: by the time we got back to California. And that's

294
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 1: why the demos that we made with John Cale and

295
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,159
Speaker 1: Alan Mason that we made in the spring of nineteen

296
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,439
Speaker 1: really reflected as best as possible boat what the Bondom

297
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,639
Speaker 1: Lovers were, the early Bondern lovers were really about. And

298
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,440
Speaker 1: that's the record that berserk Lely Records eventually put out. Okay,

299
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,080
Speaker 1: you signed with Warner, what do you do for a manager?

300
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,520
Speaker 1: We eventually went with Eddie Tickner, who managed the Birds

301
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:22,959
Speaker 1: and Graham Parsons, and we were hanging around with Graham

302
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:28,440
Speaker 1: Parsons and actually Phil Kaufman, who has the distinction is

303
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,199
Speaker 1: that he's the one who burned Graham Parson's body in

304
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,840
Speaker 1: the desert, was our road manager. In fact, we were

305
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:41,439
Speaker 1: playing basketball with Graham four days before he died, and

306
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 1: we played at we played at the party that because

307
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:51,879
Speaker 1: Phil the had to pay for the coffin uh, the

308
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:57,199
Speaker 1: family at first wanted to charge him with stealing the coffin,

309
00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 1: but he talked about a pact that Graham he had

310
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 1: made that whoever died first, the other person would take

311
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,639
Speaker 1: him them out and cremate them at Joshua Tree. Graham

312
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 1: was a little bit strange from his family. I don't

313
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 1: know if you know the history of Graham Parsons, but

314
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,560
Speaker 1: his father committed suicide on Christmas Day, and then his

315
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:22,440
Speaker 1: mother uh married a wealthy gentleman from New Orleans who

316
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 1: Graham never really got along with. Graham then went to

317
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,679
Speaker 1: the Bulls School in Jacksonville, Florida, which one of my

318
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,919
Speaker 1: roommates in college went to two years behind him. And

319
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 1: one of my advisers at Harvard had been good friends

320
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 1: with Graham because Graham had been under him. So we

321
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,120
Speaker 1: had all these kind of connections. Um very sad, one

322
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 1: of the greatest talents and it's it's it's it's awful

323
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 1: that that happened and h But anyway, so we were

324
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,679
Speaker 1: with Eddie Tickner and Phil as our road manager. But

325
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 1: Eddie didn't really do the greatest job as a manager,

326
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,199
Speaker 1: but we just sort of we sort of believe that

327
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,879
Speaker 1: he was honest. It was stupid. You were in Cohassett.

328
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 1: Were you just in l A to make the record

329
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,160
Speaker 1: that everybody bood? We moved to l A because John

330
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,479
Speaker 1: Cale wanted us to make the record there, so we

331
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,199
Speaker 1: moved in this I think in the summer of nineteen

332
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,119
Speaker 1: l A, which where we were totally fish out of water,

333
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 1: and because there was a thing in our contract that

334
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 1: we did not get all of our advance until we

335
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 1: had a manager, and then Eddie when he became our manager,

336
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 1: didn't collect it. So by the time we sort of

337
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,920
Speaker 1: broke up, we had still never gotten our advance, and

338
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 1: it was we would do things like we'd be walking

339
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,399
Speaker 1: along the street and walked down to the Old World

340
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,439
Speaker 1: restaurant if you remember that. On of course, because we

341
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,919
Speaker 1: were living on King's Road. First we lived over in

342
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,359
Speaker 1: the valley, we moved into a house Emmy Lou Harris

343
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 1: moved out and we moved into this house on Woodman Boulevard,

344
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 1: which was maybe insane over there. So finally moved to

345
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 1: this house on King's Road that was supposed to be

346
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 1: across from Wolfman Jack. So we'd walk and the police

347
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 1: would come up next to us in going did your

348
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 1: car breakdown? We go, no, we're walking and they go like,

349
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: are you sure you're not robbing something? We go, now

350
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 1: we're walking. They got nobody in l A walks where

351
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 1: we go? We're not from l A. We're walking. Okay.

352
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 1: How does it disintegrate and how does the album not

353
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 1: come out? Well, we tried working with Kale again, and

354
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 1: I would say that there was a moment where John

355
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:43,119
Speaker 1: Kale said to Jonathan Jonathan, I want you to be

356
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 1: play this solo like you feel really mad or me

357
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 1: and Jonathan went but John, I don't feel matter me

358
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 1: And I think that he realized at this point that

359
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 1: the band had changed so dramatically from the year before.

360
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 1: I actually learned to like guitar because Jonathan had changed

361
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: his guitar parts and I said, I'll play the original parts.

362
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 1: So actually Jonathan gave me my first guitar, a telecaster,

363
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: and I learned to play all the original parts so

364
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: that I could play them in the studio because he

365
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: didn't want to play them. So how did it literally disintegrate?

366
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: You're sacrificing everything for this band. I'm sure you don't

367
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: want it to break up. No, I didn't want to

368
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: break up, and but it just cut to the point

369
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 1: that it was like Jonathan. We were not going to

370
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 1: be flexible enough to go exactly where Jonathan wanted to go.

371
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 1: Especially David and we you know, there was his ideas

372
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: like we have this body of materially want to do

373
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: a great version of it, then we'll move on. But Jonathan,

374
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: being sort of living in the moment, will say I

375
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 1: can't do it the same anymore, and so David quit

376
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 1: and we I think that Jonathan went up and started

377
00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 1: hanging around in Berkeley with Matthew Kaufman who was managed

378
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: this band Earthquake, and then Greg Keen and had this

379
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: what he called a gorilla h record company called berserk Ley,

380
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,880
Speaker 1: and David, Bernie and I drove back to New York.

381
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: Eventually Jonathan came back East and Bernie and I tried

382
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: playing with him again. David had moved to l A

383
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 1: to play in a different band. Actually, this guy who

384
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 1: had played in my high school band, Pop Turner, came

385
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 1: and played drums. He had gone off and fought in Vietnam,

386
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: and I had had moved back and I had convinced

387
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: him that he ought to go to Bennington because he

388
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: was miserable going to school in Milwaukee, which is where

389
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: I'm from and where he was from, and he came

390
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: down to Cambridge and then he played in the Modern

391
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 1: Levers and we started playing songs that were tried to incorporate,

392
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 1: incorporated Jonathan's new sound, but trying to do some of

393
00:24:55,200 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: the old songs. But eventually Jonathan's desire for right to

394
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: be exceptionally quiet. It was sort of like there's just

395
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 1: no room for the rest of us, and so I

396
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: think Bob and I just said, like, let's say it

397
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: just doesn't work. It's like there's no place for me here. Okay,

398
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: were you aware because you're obviously disappointed the album comes

399
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: out on Berserkilely, like four years later? Did you know

400
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: that was going to happen? And what was that experience? Like?

401
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: I knew it was going to happen because I had

402
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: to sign a contract, which was the worst contract I

403
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: ever signed in my life, because it was Berserkly Records,

404
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: and because I didn't have the money to pay for

405
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 1: a lawyer to look at it. I didn't even have

406
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: the right to audit sold a billion records. I made

407
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars. However, it was the best decision I

408
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: ever made because the talking heads would never have knew

409
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: known I existed if I had not made that stupid contract. Wow,

410
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 1: let's go back to the beginning. You're from Milwaukee. What

411
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: do your parents do for a living? My father was

412
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: an advertising He had commanded a ship at the Pacific

413
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: during World War Two. My mother was a painter, very

414
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: great painter, as my grandmother was an amazing painter as well.

415
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: My aunt was an artist although she died in nine

416
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: but a wonderful photographer. My mom and my aunt had

417
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 1: gone to Cranbrook at the highlight of Cranbrook when Charles

418
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 1: Eames and Barrow Serene and Harriet Petoya were there in

419
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: the forties, where it was the leading art school in

420
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 1: the country, sort of the closest that the United States

421
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 1: had to the Bow House. So I came from a

422
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: very artistic family. My grandmother played piano and painted and

423
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: did all these things. So I was kind of brought

424
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 1: up in that, taking art lessons when I was a

425
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,719
Speaker 1: little kid, and uh, taking music lessons. My father had

426
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: played jazz, saxophone and clarinet, fluted a band. That's how

427
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: he supported himself going through college. And had your family

428
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: been in Sucky a while while Milwaukee and ultimately did

429
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 1: that help you will hurt you. My father's father lived

430
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: on a farm in South Dakota and never he never

431
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: graduated from great school. But he had a bad tooth

432
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: and he dug it out of his mouth with a nail,

433
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: and he did such a good job. He decided he

434
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: would be a dentist. So he took the train to

435
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: Chicago to go to Northwestern And when the train stopped

436
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: in Milwaukee, someone said, there's a very good dental school

437
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:39,719
Speaker 1: here at Marquette. So probably to say something like cents,

438
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: he got off and went to Marquette and lived there

439
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: for the rest of his life. And did he become

440
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: a dentist. In fact, his models are still in the

441
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,959
Speaker 1: Museum of Dentistry at Marquette. And how many kids in

442
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: your family? I'm an over child, Okay, So you start

443
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,719
Speaker 1: going to school. Are you the leader of the gang?

444
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: Are you the outcast? What's your formative years? What do

445
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: those look like? That sort of depends on what time

446
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: periods you know in I would certainly not saying I

447
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: was the leader of the gang, but I was an

448
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: important member. Will say, but I I certainly understood the

449
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: potential for sort of teenage alienation in high school of clicks,

450
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: trying to get along, trying to be I don't know,

451
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: cool or something like that. The thing that was amazing

452
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: about when I grew up in Milwaukee is bands became

453
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: this really big thing, and the bands up until that time,

454
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: people generally other than athletes only hung out with people

455
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: in their own grade. But bands broke that. We broke

456
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: because we had musicians from different grades in our bands,

457
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: so we knew people in three different grades. I mean

458
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: I did some sports too. I was on the track team,

459
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: so I knew people from that. But the bands and

460
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: like there was like this. My friends had this group

461
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: called the Relaxers, and they said, we stand for everything

462
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: that are anti athlete. Everything that athletes stand for, we

463
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: stand for the opposite. So we're all members of the Relaxers.

464
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: And interestingly, my high school band, the guitar player went

465
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: on to become Leonard Khn's guitar player for years. I

466
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: know Bob because you went to you went to high school.

467
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: My friend Jeff Wiker, Jeff, I know Jeff Wiker right,

468
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: So he moved l A and introduced me to all

469
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: those people. So I sat and then John Paris played

470
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: with Johnny Winner for ten years. The bass player. The

471
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: drummer went off to be a marine and fight at

472
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: Caisson and all the battles in Vietnam, and the lead

473
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: singer of that band went on to become the of

474
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: the American Institute of Architects. Pretty amazing for us, and

475
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: the people around us are the Zucker brothers who made Airplane, Ghost,

476
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: Naked Gun and all of those movies. So a little

477
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: suburban high school in Milwaukee put out an awful lot

478
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: of great art. Okay, I went to school in the

479
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: suburbs in Connecticut, fifty miles from New York City, and

480
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: nobody broke through. So what was in the water? Why?

481
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,479
Speaker 1: You know? Part of it is there were gigs. Is

482
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: every after every basketball game and every football game, there

483
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: was a gig at the high school that hosted. So

484
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: there was a need for lots of bands. And so

485
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: if you got to be in that good enough to

486
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: be part of that group of bands, you could play

487
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: and you could make a little bit of money. And

488
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: we would go all over town to hear all of

489
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: the different bands, and like going into really dangerous, dangerous

490
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: for coming from a different part of town and slightly

491
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: dangerous to go into those neighborhoods. I mean, I was

492
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: at a dance where the Italian Gang and the Puerto

493
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: Rican Gang we just I started, I walked out in

494
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: one minute later the whole thing exploded. You know what

495
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: is it? You know when fools go where a brave

496
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: man fears to tread, or something like that. It was

497
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: sort of like that. Okay, let's go back. You're old

498
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: enough to have music consciousness prior to the Beatles. Was

499
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: your desire to be in a band as a result

500
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: of the Beatles in the British invasion? When did that

501
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: become a thing for you? Now? I was in a

502
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: band before the Beatles were in America, and we did

503
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: R and B music. So your musical training, you took

504
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: piano lessons. I took piano lessons, and then I stopped

505
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: playing piano and I played saxophone in the high school band,

506
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: trying to be like my father a little bit. And

507
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: then I was in a Dixieland band playing saxophone and

508
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: freshman year of high school and then soft my year,

509
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: this drummer the Vie the Marine. So I want to

510
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: form a band. I think you should play keyboards, and

511
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: so I started playing keyboards in that band what we're

512
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: called the Walkers. Okay, and so to what degrease since

513
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: you started before the Beatles, to what degree to the

514
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: Beatles in the British Invasion changed things for you? We

515
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: got um, I would say that less than the Beatles.

516
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: It was more the Yardbirds, the Who and somewhat the Stones,

517
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: the more Blues influenced parts of the British Invasion. That, uh,

518
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: the sort of the Walkers Part two, the one that

519
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: what Bob Metsker switched from playing bass to guitar, was

520
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: very influenced by the English Invasion. So you're going to

521
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: high school to get into Harvard, you have to be

522
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: a pretty good student. So were you very dedicated to academics? Yeah?

523
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: I kind of felt like I had a deal of

524
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: my parents, like if I get good grades and leave

525
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: me alone, And so I did that. To what degree

526
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: were you a bad kid? Testing limits? Uh? Enough? I

527
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: mean obviously the people that did a lot worse, But

528
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. Lots of getting drunk, lots of dangerous driving,

529
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: lots of I mean, the other thing that was great

530
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: is that when you're in a band and you have

531
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: to do you want to get something to eat after

532
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: your parents get really use to you getting home at

533
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: two or three in the morning. Up until that time.

534
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: There was one time when I think freshman year, where

535
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: I had a girlfriend and I walked home and they

536
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: had called the police because they were worried about me.

537
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: By the time I was in a band, they kind

538
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: of expected that I would be getting home late. And

539
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: when you go to college, do you bring a keyboard,

540
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: do you bring instruments? Or you first think you're gonna

541
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: leave that behind. I sold everything. I thought, I'm gonna

542
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: wear a suit in the tie as a whole new

543
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: part of my life. And then I got to college

544
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: and Ernie Brooks, who lived in my same dormitory, form

545
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: to band, so I'd go watch him play, and I went, well,

546
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: I'm as good as these guys, I can join this band.

547
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,720
Speaker 1: So I joined that band, and then I went home

548
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: and uh one of my couple of summer jobs. One

549
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: one year before I went to Harvard, I went I

550
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: worked in a lockwasher factory, which was quite an experience.

551
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: And then the next year I worked at Evan Route

552
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: in the industrial relations department. And when I came back

553
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: from that, the Fender dealership for the entire United States

554
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: was for the for the entire Midwest was in Milwaukee.

555
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: Miss Pedal gets hard player named of Ralph Hansel. So

556
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: I went out to West Alice Music and I went

557
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: shopping buying news stuff and I drove it trailer back

558
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: and it was like Christmas for the band I bought brought.

559
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 1: I don't know. I spent like two thousand dollars and

560
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: got like six amplifiers and mics and all this stuff.

561
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: And so we started rehearsing and then the band Albatross

562
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: it was called. Then we were playing at Harvard like

563
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: outside when we shut down the university in nine and

564
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 1: we were playing out on the lawn and we were

565
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: a part. You know. There were sort of three or

566
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: three or four bands there that were There was a

567
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: band called the Far Cry that I think signed to Columbia.

568
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: There was an amazing musician, Peter Ibers, who had a

569
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 1: band called the Class Bead Game named ultimately with Peter Ivers.

570
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 1: Would got killed downtown l A. Yes, I think beaten

571
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: to death with a hammer. That's hard. Yeah, it is

572
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,760
Speaker 1: a girlfriend. Lucy Fisher and I are still close. Okay,

573
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: so you got the equipment, you're playing, you're you're there

574
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: on the heavy days and but this is always a hobby. Yeah,

575
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 1: I mean I'm thinking I'm going to be At first

576
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: I thought I wanted to be a scientist, and then

577
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: I decided I wanted to be an architect, but then

578
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: I didn't like the There was a new major at

579
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: Harvard called Visual and Environmental Studies. I was starting my

580
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: sophomore year, so I was the first class. But when

581
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: I started going to the classes, I went, they don't

582
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: have this together, and I don't. So fortunately I was stubborn,

583
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: and uh I was. I took a design carse sophomore year.

584
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: Now I hadn't done any art in years, but I

585
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: had done it with my mother when I was growing up,

586
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: and so I took this design carse. And then my

587
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: junior year I really was did not like the guy

588
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: who taught the next year of design. I used to

589
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: have run ins with him in the shop. He was

590
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: an anal compulsive, which was the opposite of me. So

591
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: I just kind of didn't go to the class. And

592
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: there was the most advanced class. So I went up

593
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: heirs to the most advanced class and I said, can

594
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: I take this class? And it was like this guy,

595
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: this wonderful sculpture named Mirco Basadala, who recently. I was

596
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: at the Rockefeller estate that's in Westchester, and I was

597
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: looking at this sculpture and I'm going, this looks familiar,

598
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: and it was Mirco and there was a he had

599
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: a new assistant named Paul Rotterdam, and I go, can

600
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: I take this class? I go, well, there's only five

601
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: people taking you. What do you think? Sure you can

602
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: take it. And so I had the waging experiences that

603
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: I had six hours a week with two brilliant, if

604
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: not genius professors, and there was one other girl and

605
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: me were the only two people in the class that

606
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: really worked hard. So we had like a personal apprenticeship

607
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: with these people. Mirco passed away halfway through the year,

608
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: and then Paul took over, and then Paul became my mentor.

609
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 1: He I took independent on studies with him, and then

610
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: he became my thesis advisor. Eventually I moved to New

611
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: York and built his loft with him. I hung his

612
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: shows at Susan called well Um. I had a one

613
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: man show at the Carpenter Center Um of my sculptures

614
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: and paintings. But the modern levers played at SO really

615
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 1: changed my whole life. But it was like that decision

616
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 1: of like, oh, I'm not going to go to that class.

617
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: I can't standard. I did a number of things in

618
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: college that I when I look back on, it was

619
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: like I can't believe that I sort of had the

620
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: balls to do that. But I just went up and

621
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 1: this is what I want and people went Nobody else

622
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: asks Okay, So anyway other than the academics, uh, what

623
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,240
Speaker 1: was the social situation? Into what degree did that change?

624
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,439
Speaker 1: You would Harvard lives. Well, there was the unique time

625
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: at Harvard where unlike if you watch the social network,

626
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: all of the sort of fine old clubs that you

627
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: know in the social network that people are trying to

628
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: get into, people were identifying with sort of the war

629
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: in Vietnam soldiers and the working class. And there were

630
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:14,439
Speaker 1: a lot you know, there are a lot of self

631
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: identified communists. There was the Progressive Labor Party. I was hiding,

632
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: you knew the situation? Is there one more? Do I believe?

633
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 1: The situationists? French revolutionary French revolutionary Malcolm McClaren was incredibly

634
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: influenced by them. So they came over and they were

635
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 1: disrupting classes. And I will tell us a little about

636
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: who they are what they're about. So they believed that

637
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: the revolution was not about the workers student alliance, but

638
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: it was about defining the the places in the culture

639
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: where the uh interests of the general society we're being

640
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: manipulated by we'll say, the ruling class. And so they

641
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: would create uh sort of events that would elucidate this.

642
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 1: There's one of the main writers is a guy named

643
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: gud Board. Actually, many of the people that sort of

644
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 1: ended up taking over France began as situationists, and as

645
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: I said, and Malcolm was very influenced by so when

646
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: he did sex and all of that, that really grew

647
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,439
Speaker 1: out of the situation is thinking. So they came over.

648
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: Some of them were down at Columbia, some of them

649
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: came from France, and they were in our in our

650
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: living in my room, and I was disrupting classes with

651
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: them and things like that. Um, and they kind of

652
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: they also introduced me to the to the psychiatrists, Wilhelm Reich,

653
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 1: you know him, Yeah, yeah, so I was and I

654
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: found him really fascinating and I wrote a lot of

655
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: papers about him. But let me do this day. Of course,

656
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: you know, roll thing comes out of him. Arthur Jane

657
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: comes off of him, all of this other stuff we

658
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: started by Reich, and of course Rich is amazing. The

659
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: they took his books out of the library at Congress

660
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: and burned them. They put him in jail. I mean,

661
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: he's an amazing figure. So he they and they also

662
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: kind of believed in free love. But it was basically

663
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: the guys in the group wanted to hook up with

664
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: our girlfriends, and the girls in the group weren't that

665
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: We're willing to hook up with us, but they weren't

666
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: all that attractive. And I remembered there was this time,

667
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: you know, I had gotten into this thing about Okay,

668
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: I'm suspicious of this. So am I suspicious of this

669
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: because of the way I was raised in my training,

670
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: or do I have an intuition that this is bullshit?

671
00:41:55,160 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: And how do I distinguish between those two uh trains

672
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 1: of thought? And I remember this girl coming up and

673
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: sitting next to me, and she goes, so, what do

674
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 1: you think about what we're saying? And I said, I'm

675
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: gonna trust my intuition, and I said, I think you're

676
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: completely full of ship. But it was an amazing time.

677
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 1: It was Harvard was unlike it was at any other time.

678
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: It was not all about just being rich. The rich

679
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: people kind of hid that they were rich, and and

680
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: to a degree, the working class was ascended totally unique.

681
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,479
Speaker 1: You know, I was invited to enjoying a final club

682
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: and oh, I don't want to do that, so I know.

683
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: So it's like, you know what, it's funny. I remember

684
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: being counted go to a football game. You can't go

685
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 1: to the football game. Same thing. So you said, you

686
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: mentioned right and jan Off and all these people. What's

687
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: your experience with therapy if any. I've never done it.

688
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: I've always thought that I'd like to do it because

689
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:57,919
Speaker 1: I think it's sort of would be fascinating. I've read

690
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: enough about psychiatry and stuff like that. It um. I

691
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: think the cognitive uh c G I is very effective

692
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: for changing your behavior, but it doesn't really get at

693
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 1: maybe why you have certain phobias or things like that.

694
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: You know. I thought that Ardi Lang was really fascinating

695
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: because he thought the schizophrenia was part of a healing

696
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 1: process and stuff like that. I've had all these amazing

697
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: things where I meet psychologists or new psychiatrists and I

698
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 1: bring up these authors and they've never heard of any

699
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 1: of them. I really, what are they teaching you in college,

700
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 1: It's like, how could you not know who Adler is

701
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: or who Right is or you know, I know, you

702
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: know Freud is. And the same thing is like they

703
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: don't know who Irban Goffman, sort of the inventor of

704
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: group psychology. It's like, what what are they teaching? Are

705
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: you that well adjusted that you don't need any therapy?

706
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: I think the therapy would be an exploration and it

707
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: would probably make me well more well adjusted. But I

708
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: think that I'm happy and I've found my ways to

709
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: I don't know, confront whatever issues I think I need

710
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 1: to confront, But I think they'd have probably been helpful,

711
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: but to a degree. Really doing therapy takes time, like

712
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: a lot of time, and I knew, you know, and

713
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: I also see that people kind of get addicted to it.

714
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: There was a philosophy professor who was the leading expert

715
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: on Wittgenstein, who was head of the philosophy department at Harvard.

716
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: It also happened to be gay, and he and I

717
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: became really good friends, and you know, he would go like, well,

718
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 1: Fritz Pearls was my psychiatrist for a long time. The

719
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 1: guy started sling, But then I thought I needed something more,

720
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: so I switched to a Freudian and I'm like, this

721
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: is an addiction. It's like a lifelong addiction of trying

722
00:44:55,520 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 1: to examine your problems all the time. So I'm uh,

723
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 1: I think it has a real place. You read the

724
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: case studies where they do fantastic things. I think that

725
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: it can be very very useful, and I think that

726
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: probably everybody could learn a lot from it. But I

727
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: think you could. I think you can learn awful lot

728
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: by self examination when you read the books and thinking

729
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: about what they're talking about. Mark's very interesting because he

730
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: believes that he was the first one to make a

731
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: connection between what you're thinking and how you hold your

732
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: body and your musculature. He told one, um uh, you

733
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,399
Speaker 1: know one is what he called character armor, and then

734
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: he called it body armor. And so have you ever

735
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: had the thing where you have anxiety and your and

736
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: you kind of feel in your chest. It's almost like

737
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: there's a band around your chest when you're feeling well,

738
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: if you make yourself gag, it'll go away. And so

739
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: he had all these methodologies to using uh uh, what

740
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: are the um reflexes as a way is what he

741
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 1: called dissolving the energy that was in the body armor,

742
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: and then it would help dissolve the psychological characterological construct

743
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: that was connected to that body armor. We of course

744
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: believed that the orgasm was the most important, so he

745
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 1: would watch people having sex and it's like he really

746
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: went off. And I think he also believed in that

747
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: oregon and energy within the atmosphere. It's a little bit

748
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 1: like Telly Shardon and the idea of there being some

749
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: kind of life force, which of course has gone out

750
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: of favor and science. But you know, maybe we just

751
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,879
Speaker 1: haven't developed the tool to be able to sense it.

752
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: I mean, they've never really explained acupuncture adequately, you know,

753
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,720
Speaker 1: and yet there's you know, there's empirical evidence that it works.

754
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: So he was, you know, he in any ways was

755
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: mimicking what a lot of Eastern things do, but saying

756
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: it within a Western frame of mind. And of course

757
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: he was hunted down by Hitler because he was associated

758
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: with the Socialists and setting up camps and stuff like

759
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 1: that about hygiene and health. And he went to Norway

760
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: first and then came the United States and and he

761
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: was up at Rangely Lakes up in uh in Maine.

762
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 1: He thought he could change the weather with Yeah. He

763
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: nicknamed this stuff called orgon energy and that you could

764
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:42,240
Speaker 1: collect it or or disperse it. And William Burrows wrote

765
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: this big and rolling stone about going to visit Paul

766
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:50,720
Speaker 1: Bowles and sitting in an orgon box. So I met Paul.

767
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: I met William Burrows one night with Patti Smith was

768
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 1: there talking and of course they're talking about poetry. But

769
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 1: of course when I go out to and go like,

770
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: can you tell me about the Oregon box with Paul Ball,

771
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: that's what I really want to know about it, and

772
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: he goes, there was something there. There was definitely something there,

773
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: So that's what I know about it. Staying on this

774
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: same tip to a degree, you know, being a musician

775
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 1: is very different. I'll just use architecture because you went

776
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: down that path to a degree, and there's a lot

777
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: of unique things. You know, a lot of musicians take

778
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,919
Speaker 1: drugs to come down from the gig. Uh, you get

779
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 1: the incredible adrenaline hit that other people are unaware of

780
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: band's break up. How did you cope with all this tumultuousness?

781
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 1: Probably the sort of disintegration on the modern levelage was

782
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: pretty hard. First of all, I had put my own

783
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 1: money into helping the band survive. So I was really

784
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 1: broke when it happened, and I knew the potential of

785
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: what we could have done, and it was sad. It

786
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: was just really sad. And it uh. I went back

787
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 1: to Cambridge and I actually taught at Harvard. Paul Rotterdam

788
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 1: called me up and said, my teaching assistant quit, can

789
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 1: you do it? Is it sure? Which was really interesting

790
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 1: because the student body had changed. They were all about

791
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 1: getting good grades now instead of about what they were learning.

792
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: When I was in college, people go, I don't care

793
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: what great I got. I want to know what I

794
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: want to learn stuff and the and the and the

795
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 1: professors found that inspiring. Suddenly the professors were far more

796
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: radical than the students. I would have all these like students,

797
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: especially like you know, people from the law school were

798
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: taking this course and they were trying to get me

799
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: to do their project for them. It's like, what is

800
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: that why you're taking the classes for me to do it?

801
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: It's for you to do it. And then I worked

802
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: for h software development company called Cambridge Computer. But now

803
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 1: this is the computers before Apple and Microsoft or any

804
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,800
Speaker 1: these companies existed. We were working on IBM main frames.

805
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: And the deck PDP eight and PDP eleven. This company

806
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 1: could have been Microsoft. It wrote the operating systems, they

807
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: wrote the manuals. They did this. I didn't do too

808
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 1: much programming. I was trying to be a salesman during

809
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 1: a that they had a system for school systems that

810
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: I was remarkably unsuccessful at selling. But there was a

811
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: recession in the early seventies, and so getting you know,

812
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: school boards to spend money it was. It was difficult.

813
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: But and there was a chess master that was there.

814
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 1: They could play twenty of us blindfolded and beat us

815
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: all but everybody was obsessed by chess. So I got

816
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: that's the best I ever was at chess, and that

817
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 1: that chess bachelor went on to become the world backgammon champion.

818
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: The other thing that was really interesting is that a

819
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: lot of the people in this head far more wild

820
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: and act of sex lives than most of the musicians

821
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: I knew. So that was it was really fascinating. But

822
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: I also learned that when they went home, they read,

823
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: they read manuals, and when I home, I listened to music.

824
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: So I went, I don't think this is my new career.

825
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 1: I think music is really what I want to do.

826
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 1: I applied to architecture school and then I put it

827
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 1: off for a year because I, um, there's an artist

828
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: named Elliott Murphy who came up around the time, all right,

829
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 1: So I made night Lights with him and went on

830
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,240
Speaker 1: tour with him. I also produced Let's Start from the beginning.

831
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 1: Elliott was a New York guy. How did you know?

832
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: Elliott Murphy? He knew of the modern Lovers, and so

833
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:41,879
Speaker 1: when he came up to Cambridge, I think he got

834
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: in touch with us, and then Ernie and I played

835
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 1: with him, and then eventually I produced that record Milwaukee

836
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: for him, and I just saw him in Paris when

837
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 1: I was there in November. We're still friends and so

838
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: that's what I did around the computer company, and eventually

839
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: I said, like, I've got to start architecture school before

840
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: as long as I can. And then I started. I

841
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: know that Chris talked about this. It was right as

842
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: I met the Talking Hits. I was starting that. So

843
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 1: I they were very nice to me that they let

844
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: me finish one semester. I said, my parents will kill

845
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 1: me if I don't at least finish the semester so

846
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: that I can go back. If I have to just

847
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 1: to go back to chapter. It's history with the Modern Lovers. Now,

848
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 1: you went from high school to college, you sold all

849
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,399
Speaker 1: your stuff. When you had that line of demarcation, did

850
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: you say, no, there's a future, you say, I'm not

851
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: playing music. I'm out. I just thought that I'm an amateur.

852
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: There's professionals doing this. I'm a good student. I'm gonna

853
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: do something else. And then I saw that other people.

854
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 1: But I was just as good as the other people

855
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 1: that were around me. And when I met Jonathan, I said,

856
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 1: we're as legitimate as any band in the world. And frankly,

857
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 1: I hate them music that's coming out now, like I

858
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,320
Speaker 1: don't know Emerson, Lincoln Palmer and yes, and it was

859
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 1: just you know, as I call it. And I think

860
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,240
Speaker 1: it was sort of like the mannerism is the classical painting,

861
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:19,919
Speaker 1: that it was more about grandios technique rather than great

862
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 1: songs and things like that. And so John, you know,

863
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: I actually think that the Modern Lovers are sort of

864
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 1: the beginning of punk music. I mean, we were, of

865
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: course exceptionally influenced by Developt Underground and the Stooges, but

866
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 1: those they don't seem exactly punk to me. But to me,

867
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 1: the definition of punk music is I have something to say,

868
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: and no matter how good or bad a musician I am,

869
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 1: I will find a means to express what I have

870
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: to say. And and because I believe it so much,

871
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 1: and I will say it was such passion, I'll get

872
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,240
Speaker 1: across to an audience. And I think the Modern Lovers

873
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:03,839
Speaker 1: were the beginning of that ethos, short and sweet ideas,

874
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 1: and of course Jonathan very much. You know, when everybody

875
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: was doing drugs, he writes a song called I'm Straight

876
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 1: and so we were being the opposite. Well that was

877
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: a big thing, you know, in the sixties and seventies.

878
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:24,800
Speaker 1: But just to get the timeline right, how long after

879
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: the Modern Lovers break up do you actually start architecture school.

880
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: I started architecture school in September, and the broader Lovers

881
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: broke up, I believe in the spring of seventy. Okay,

882
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: So how do you ultimately uh connect with the talking gets.

883
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 1: It's as Chris said, he called me up because he

884
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: got the number through Ernie Books and the Showyer family,

885
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: who I did now up in Maine. He had a

886
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 1: j S house to Ernie's family's house. Also Steve Paul

887
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: because Steve Paul and Danny Fields were wanted to manage

888
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:14,479
Speaker 1: the Modern Lovers. Steve Paul had said to the talking

889
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: you had to leasy told me that I would be

890
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: a good choice because they knew because he knew that

891
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 1: I paid it as well. So I think that we

892
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 1: I think there were this like this would be a

893
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,439
Speaker 1: good time. It's a music story though, So the first

894
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: time I went down to play with them, like I said,

895
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 1: I had no money. I mean really I was that.

896
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: I ended up with Ernie moving a family to New

897
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 1: York and the band van and when we packed the

898
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 1: van there was no room for my oregan. So I

899
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,439
Speaker 1: drove to New York with a guitar and I walked

900
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 1: into the the Christentina Davis Loft on Christie Street with

901
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: the guitar. They said, we thought you were a keyboard player.

902
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,360
Speaker 1: I said, well I am, but I played guitar too,

903
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:00,840
Speaker 1: and there wasn't any room for the keyboard. So I

904
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 1: brought a guitar. But let's display some music. And we

905
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:06,919
Speaker 1: started to play some music and it sounded great from

906
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,240
Speaker 1: the moment we started praying. So then I came back

907
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: with the keyboard and I did a show at the

908
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,760
Speaker 1: Lower Manhattan Ocean Club. They also had a horn player

909
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 1: play with them, and then we went out to New Jersey.

910
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 1: We played that a private party that is sort of

911
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 1: immortalized in the pictures on the first album of the

912
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: name of this band is Talking Heads or I'm kind

913
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 1: of standing off at the side, because that was the

914
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 1: second time I played with them, And then they came

915
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 1: up to Cambridge and I I took a week off

916
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 1: from architecture school and played the Ratskeller in Boston, Lupo's

917
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 1: Heartbreak Saloon and found in uh in u Ah Providence

918
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 1: some places at a Clark University. And I think at

919
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 1: that point, AM going like, this is too good. I'm

920
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: going to do it. I had I had forgotten what

921
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: Chris said about the thing that I wanted to make

922
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 1: sure they got a record deal, and I think that

923
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 1: that's probably true. I think that I was like, I

924
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:07,959
Speaker 1: don't want to spend two years chasing a record deal.

925
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 1: I want to like get to it and make a record,

926
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 1: because I had seen what happened with the modern lovers

927
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: waiting around for the right deal and stuff like that.

928
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 1: So but I was I was forever grateful that they rated.

929
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 1: I joined in January seven, we immediately started getting ready

930
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: to make the first album, and we did went on

931
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 1: that glorious tour that Chris has talked avented so well

932
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 1: in his book Opening for the Ramans, which frankly was

933
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: one of the most fun tours I've ever been on,

934
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 1: because the the audiences in Europe knew about the Ramans

935
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: and the Talking Hits as much from fanzines and articles

936
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: and magazines as from hearing any music. So they go, like,

937
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:55,919
Speaker 1: we want to go see what's happening in New York

938
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: right now, So they were open minded to seeing the

939
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 1: Talking Hits with the Mounds, and we would like finish

940
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 1: our set and usually walk to the back and like

941
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: all of our fans would come up and said, like,

942
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 1: do you want to go out? And the great thing

943
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 1: about Talking Hits fans is usually there were people that

944
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 1: you were very perfectly happy to hang out with. They

945
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 1: were smart, they were intellectuals, and they had something to

946
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 1: teach you and talk to you about. So we'd go

947
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 1: out with them, go all over the towns with them,

948
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 1: come back, get on the bus the next day with

949
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: the Ramond to go on to the next place. Tina

950
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 1: actually has the same story as me, but we were

951
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:35,919
Speaker 1: driving by Stonehenge and I went up to the bus

952
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: drivers that we have to stop. I want to go

953
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: see Stonehead and Johnny Ramone goes, what we're stopping to

954
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: go see a bunch of rocks? But oh god it

955
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 1: was and the weather was glorious. It was right when

956
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 1: when h the sex pistols did God save the Queen

957
00:58:57,840 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 1: into that thing when they were coming down the tem

958
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 1: We had this party that they all came to and Johnny,

959
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: Johnny Rotten was a big fan of Roadrunner, you know,

960
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 1: of course they they did a cover of road Runner.

961
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 1: It was a fantastic time. Now, was Gary ker First

962
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 1: already the manager when you came? Or how did you

963
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: get Gary Kurfers? Garry Kurfirst came about a year later,

964
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: and he having gone through not having a manager in

965
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 1: the modern Lovers, I was very adamant in saying we

966
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 1: really have to have a manager. Christine and David were

967
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 1: more business like and more let's say, unified and how

968
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: they thought about it than we had been in the

969
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 1: Modern Lovers, So they could have gone further, and they

970
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: had done a great job up until then. But there

971
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 1: comes a time where you're away and things are happening,

972
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 1: and Ken Kushnik, who worked at Sire Records, introduced us

973
00:59:53,920 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: to Gary. And Gary had gone through a quite an

974
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 1: adventure because he had gotten an underactive thyroid. He had

975
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:06,919
Speaker 1: been the manager of Mountain and a promoter. I don't

976
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 1: know if you know much about it. Yeah, I know this,

977
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 1: and I knew Gary. Yeah, so anyway, you know all

978
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: of this. But so by the time he took us on,

979
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 1: it's not like he had a lot of other acts.

980
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 1: He had us and he loved coming on tour with

981
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: us and ran his business from the road with us.

982
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 1: And as Chris said, Gary would explore the towns as

983
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: we went out, and he sort of put together a

984
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 1: tour that was half top forty clubs and half this

985
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 1: and half that. I became the road manager. Tina had

986
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: been at and I remember we were playing actually in Milwaukee,

987
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 1: and he had made a deal like three guarantee, but

988
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 1: we get of the house after you make five and

989
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:51,919
Speaker 1: the pro boer because I'm not gonna play you five

990
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. I said, well, let me call Gary. Carry

991
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: gets out the phone. He goes, look, I'm a gambler,

992
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 1: but when I win, I collect. And if you ever

993
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 1: want to have any band ever play there again, you're

994
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,479
Speaker 1: gonna pay, so the guy paid me. It was great,

995
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: It was It was an adventure. I mean because of Gary,

996
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 1: we built our name through touring to a degree that

997
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 1: another manager we had thought about her I had thought

998
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,520
Speaker 1: about was Ed Bicknell, who had been our agent in

999
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 1: London and he went on to become Dire Straitsman manager,

1000
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 1: and he would we would have been much more of

1001
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 1: a European act and maybe South America. You know, he

1002
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 1: took a different course, more publicity. So it's interesting to

1003
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: think about those choices. But Gary was a master of

1004
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 1: the road and we didn't mind working. Really, the Ramans

1005
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 1: on Us were the only bands that really worked that

1006
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:54,840
Speaker 1: hard on the road that came out of Was it depressing,

1007
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 1: I mean, you're on the way up, but you've got

1008
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:58,959
Speaker 1: to play a lot of places. At first you would

1009
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 1: think we're audience as are not into you, or that

1010
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 1: not many people show up or was that not your experience.

1011
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: It was all an adventure, so it was fine. You know,

1012
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 1: we were you know, we were driving around a station wagon.

1013
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: I'm just playing. Gary had found this guy named Gary

1014
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 1: Schofield who had a van and who was a sound mixer.

1015
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 1: The way he got the van is he had a

1016
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 1: friend who got stopped by the Connecticut State Police who

1017
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 1: thought he was a danger and shot him in the head.

1018
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 1: And the van sat in the parents garage for about

1019
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 1: five years and Gary finally went over and go like,

1020
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 1: are you gonna do anything with that van? And they

1021
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: went just take it away. So he had this free van.

1022
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 1: So Gary ma had a deal with him and he

1023
01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 1: made much more money than us. So so I know,

1024
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 1: we we'd go out and like, you know, each of

1025
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 1: us is getting a grilled cheese and He'll goes, I'll

1026
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 1: have the prime rib and so we kind of hated him.

1027
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 1: But Garrett goes, he's too good a deal. You don't

1028
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 1: get it. He mixes you, he helps move the equipment,

1029
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: and he's got a van. It's an unbelievable deal. So okay,

1030
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 1: the first album, you know, looking through from an outsider's

1031
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 1: you point, it appears that you wanted to produce the

1032
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 1: record itself and they want a little insurance and got

1033
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 1: Tony Bon Jovie. You of course were in the power station.

1034
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 1: What went on there? Well, Chris and Tina and David

1035
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:42,280
Speaker 1: had done a single with Tony Bon Jovi and they

1036
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 1: wanted something away from the I don't know the punk producers,

1037
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 1: and Tony was known for doing disco and horns and

1038
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: things like that. Tony brought in a guy named Lance

1039
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 1: Quinn who was sort of the musical part of the team.

1040
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 1: Tony didn't really get us all. I mean we The

1041
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 1: version he wanted to put a Psycho Killer on the

1042
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 1: album was the one that has cellos. But when we

1043
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: got back from the tour of London where we were

1044
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 1: finishing our shows with Psycho Killer, I kind of put

1045
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:18,440
Speaker 1: my foot on and said like, no, we're going to

1046
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 1: do the electric version like we do. Uh, we've been

1047
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 1: doing live and that's what we did and that's what's

1048
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: on the album. So but Tony really knew a lot

1049
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 1: about sound. He was in the process of building the

1050
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:36,520
Speaker 1: power station, so we never worked at the power station.

1051
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:38,720
Speaker 1: We made it at a little studio called Sun Dragon,

1052
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 1: a sixteen track studio at Stadium was the engineer. We

1053
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 1: mixed it at Media Sound, where Tony was very involved.

1054
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 1: I just worked with Ed doing atmost mixes of talking hits.

1055
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 1: He still listens so loud it's like I have tonight

1056
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: as it was like, oh my god, dude, it was crazy,

1057
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: but it was fun. I just remixed all the Talking

1058
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:08,720
Speaker 1: Hits albums for atmost in eight weeks this summer, which

1059
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 1: was Okay. Then let's just go sideways here for a second.

1060
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 1: What's your viewpoint on ATMOS. Well, I was a big

1061
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 1: fan of surround sound, and I did the five one mixes,

1062
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 1: so Eric thorn Gren and I did that. So I

1063
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 1: think that I think surround sound and ATMOS is a

1064
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 1: version of surround sound is great. I think that you

1065
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 1: are putting a computer in between your mix and the

1066
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 1: eventual playback, because the the computer is sort of sampling

1067
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 1: how many speakers do you have and what's the frequency

1068
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:50,960
Speaker 1: of response, and then making the adjustments. Sometimes that can

1069
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 1: be a little bit weird. I also think that the headphones,

1070
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: they're not exactly that really don't give you the entire experience,

1071
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 1: but they're fun. They're fun to listen to, and I

1072
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 1: think that a great surrounds on mix is just fantastic.

1073
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:09,920
Speaker 1: Um Our philosophy, you know, this is Eric thorn Gren

1074
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: in mine is not to tear the music apart so

1075
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 1: much that you feel like it's all in pieces, but

1076
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 1: to keep the coherence that you have in the stereo mix,

1077
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:23,760
Speaker 1: but to enhance it. So I don't know if you've

1078
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 1: had the chance, but go on Apple Music and try

1079
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 1: listening to it or untitled see what you think. Okay,

1080
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 1: and you live through the quad experiments and all this

1081
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 1: other stuff. Do you think app moos is going to

1082
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 1: be a small thing or it's going to become the default?

1083
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 1: I think that ATMOS is the best chance because I

1084
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 1: think that Dolby and Apple are behind it, and those

1085
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 1: are two pretty powerful companies, particularly Apple. Apple is the

1086
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 1: world's largest corporation, and so that's a that's a much

1087
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:57,240
Speaker 1: better starting place than where we were before. Sony has

1088
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:00,160
Speaker 1: you know, this competitive system, But I don't think I

1089
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 1: don't think it's going to be the beta max phs.

1090
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 1: I think ATMOS is going to be the default system.

1091
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:08,920
Speaker 1: I think that all the cars will have it within

1092
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 1: five years. Already cars have it. I think that every

1093
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 1: a v amp that comes out, we'll have it, will

1094
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 1: be ATMOS ready. Now, are people gonna put in thirteen

1095
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 1: speakers all over their rooms? No, but they have these

1096
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:30,840
Speaker 1: Atmos sound bars and stuff like that. There there's acceptable Okay,

1097
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 1: they're not you know, like everything you know, you've got

1098
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:38,720
Speaker 1: audio file levels that's even better. Okay, so you just

1099
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:41,720
Speaker 1: did all these ATMOS mixes. Let's say you're a band

1100
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:43,760
Speaker 1: on the way up. How much time and money is

1101
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 1: it going to take to put on an atmost mix

1102
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 1: of that record? Well, I think that if every engineer

1103
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 1: understands ATMOS, that they can mix using stems so that

1104
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 1: they can sort of do them at the same time.

1105
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:01,000
Speaker 1: But if you're going back to the reginal material, you've

1106
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 1: got to sort of start over. So I don't think

1107
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 1: it's all that much more expensive if you're using an

1108
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 1: engineer that's familiar with both, And I think the stereo

1109
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 1: mix will always be your basis, the basic thing that

1110
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 1: you're doing, and the utmost is sort of h a

1111
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:23,160
Speaker 1: fun and exciting extra. I've always thought that cars are

1112
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 1: the ideal place for surround sound because you have you

1113
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:29,400
Speaker 1: sit in the same place all the time. So you know,

1114
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:32,400
Speaker 1: I think that we all take our cars. Now, don't

1115
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 1: you adjust the stereo to a little bit to the

1116
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:37,600
Speaker 1: back and to the front. You sort of create a

1117
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 1: Fox surround set up in your car already, so this

1118
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 1: is just a little more defined. Um, I can play

1119
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 1: some of my five one mixes in my cars. The

1120
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,679
Speaker 1: mix of burning down the house from the DVD audio,

1121
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 1: it sounds amazing in my car, so I I think

1122
01:08:57,280 --> 01:08:59,880
Speaker 1: that must will be great there just to be clear

1123
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:05,840
Speaker 1: in your car stock stereo or aftermarket stereo stock. But

1124
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:08,600
Speaker 1: I have. But I bought an RS seven, which is

1125
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:11,280
Speaker 1: one of the greatest stereos ever made in a car,

1126
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 1: and that is one of the It's one of the

1127
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,679
Speaker 1: reasons I bought that car. Friend of mine designed. Friend

1128
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 1: of mine design that makes a stereo for the RS

1129
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:22,760
Speaker 1: of it. Panging Old and the tweeters were designed by

1130
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:24,679
Speaker 1: a friend of mine who lives here and Merinn County,

1131
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:27,519
Speaker 1: and he licensed them to be you know, they pop

1132
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 1: up out of the dashboard and then they go down

1133
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 1: and it's it's great. But but when I play, I

1134
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,040
Speaker 1: think it's actually defaulting back to the Dolby version of

1135
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 1: the five one. It's distinct in the different speakers in

1136
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 1: my car, so I can hear panning going back and

1137
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,640
Speaker 1: forth and stuff like that. So I know what it's

1138
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 1: going to be like to have a was it's great? Okay?

1139
01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:02,280
Speaker 1: So he had seventy seven comes out. Were you happy

1140
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 1: with the finished product? Yes, I thought that we were

1141
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:10,120
Speaker 1: a little heavier than the record. It was a it's

1142
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:12,120
Speaker 1: a little clear, you know, but I thought, you know,

1143
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 1: it's very it's very clean and very immaculate, and it

1144
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 1: captured the uniqueness of the band. Certainly. David's voice is

1145
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:26,599
Speaker 1: very you know, he has this, uh, completely unique way

1146
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:32,040
Speaker 1: of singing, you know, probably the most on seventy seven

1147
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:37,719
Speaker 1: and sort of slowly becoming a more let's say, conventional

1148
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:39,920
Speaker 1: is not the right word, but the ability to sing

1149
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:43,599
Speaker 1: in a fuller voice and more what we would think

1150
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:48,479
Speaker 1: of as a good voice. As he progresses, has more

1151
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:55,599
Speaker 1: of his kind of ah h what you know. Used

1152
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 1: to say that his his thing is like it's sort

1153
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:03,960
Speaker 1: of like explosives of excitement, right, and has it has

1154
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,120
Speaker 1: more of that. But I think that the records records great.

1155
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:10,720
Speaker 1: I have favorites, so I love No Compassion, which has

1156
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:15,640
Speaker 1: always been one of my favorite songs. Um No, I

1157
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 1: think it's I think who is its great and new feeling,

1158
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:23,519
Speaker 1: you know, it's terrific. I mean I'm excited where we

1159
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 1: went after it because I wanted to go someplace else,

1160
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 1: but I was the first sound was great. Did you

1161
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:34,799
Speaker 1: ever have doubts about the level of success of Talking Heads?

1162
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:37,800
Speaker 1: I always knew we would be an artistic success and

1163
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:40,519
Speaker 1: that we would really influence a lot of people. I

1164
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 1: had no idea about our commercial success. I thought it

1165
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:48,400
Speaker 1: would be medium. We outstripped our commercial success from what

1166
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:52,000
Speaker 1: I predicted. But I didn't do it for the money.

1167
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:54,360
Speaker 1: I did it for the to be have that influence

1168
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:57,759
Speaker 1: on people. And so how did you know get involved

1169
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 1: on the second record, Well, he came to see us

1170
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 1: at the Roundhouse and then we went over to his

1171
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:08,360
Speaker 1: house and we went to this bookstore Compendium, and I

1172
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:11,479
Speaker 1: finally found this book about that Burrows once again had

1173
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:15,040
Speaker 1: written about called about this review of this book Inside

1174
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 1: Scientology by Robert Kaufman, and every bookstore in the United

1175
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:22,840
Speaker 1: States did not have a copy of this book because

1176
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:25,599
Speaker 1: the scientologists bought every one of them so that they

1177
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:28,800
Speaker 1: so that there was no way to find out about

1178
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:33,560
Speaker 1: the sort of, uh say, we're devious things that they do.

1179
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:36,640
Speaker 1: And I found it at this book store, which was

1180
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:41,800
Speaker 1: very exciting, and we just were admired him and said

1181
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:44,160
Speaker 1: we'd love you to work with you, and he goes,

1182
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:46,080
Speaker 1: are you sure I love the sout of talking at

1183
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:49,880
Speaker 1: s And we said, yeah, we're sure. I mean we

1184
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:51,760
Speaker 1: think that Tony knew a lot about sound but he

1185
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:56,680
Speaker 1: didn't exactly understand us, and we'd like to work with

1186
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 1: someone who understands us. And then he brought in Rhet Davy,

1187
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 1: who was a terrific engineer. So and as Chris said,

1188
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:06,800
Speaker 1: it was a magical time down in the ad compass point,

1189
01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:12,519
Speaker 1: just wonderful. And other than signing you to what degree

1190
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:20,680
Speaker 1: with Seymour stunt involved, I think with us most of

1191
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:23,600
Speaker 1: the time he just got out of the way. Like

1192
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:28,120
Speaker 1: we designed our own album covers, we made lots of

1193
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:34,720
Speaker 1: our own decisions. Um, he just tried to facilitate us.

1194
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:39,360
Speaker 1: And there were times that when Warner Brothers bought sire Rad,

1195
01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:41,599
Speaker 1: if we couldn't get something out of Warner Brothers, Gary

1196
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:45,240
Speaker 1: Kirkers would try and go get it from Seymour. And

1197
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 1: Seymour had a sauce spot for us. I mean, I

1198
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:50,400
Speaker 1: think he was amongst all the bands he signed, we

1199
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:57,200
Speaker 1: were among his very favorites. And so you know, how

1200
01:13:57,280 --> 01:14:01,000
Speaker 1: did you end up cutting Take Me to the River? Well,

1201
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:03,960
Speaker 1: you know, I listened to your podcast with Chris and

1202
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 1: they talk. It's true that Edo convinced us to slow

1203
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:09,679
Speaker 1: it down, which was the right choice, But I also

1204
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 1: think that very crucial thing is I learned to Take

1205
01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:17,240
Speaker 1: Me to the River by David teaching it to me.

1206
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:23,160
Speaker 1: I never went and listened to the original. And the

1207
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:29,600
Speaker 1: difference between sil Johnson or Al Green. It's all on

1208
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:36,320
Speaker 1: the upbeat, It's like and ours just dude, it's like

1209
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:41,240
Speaker 1: very didactic, like a march and and I think a

1210
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:43,559
Speaker 1: lot of that is my Oregon part because I had

1211
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:46,400
Speaker 1: learned it from David and I wasn't trying to mimic

1212
01:14:46,479 --> 01:14:49,800
Speaker 1: the original. I've done this movie, I don't know if

1213
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:51,760
Speaker 1: you've seen this movie, Take Me at the River about

1214
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:56,200
Speaker 1: Memphis music that I was a producer of. Fantastic movie.

1215
01:14:56,520 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 1: And so I've now worked with the Hodges brothers and

1216
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:01,720
Speaker 1: play Take Me the Ever with them Teeny Hodges as

1217
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:05,799
Speaker 1: the co writer. So I had to relearn it slightly

1218
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:08,479
Speaker 1: different chords, but also a totally different feeling. So I

1219
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:12,880
Speaker 1: became very, uh a sort of in tune with the

1220
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:15,680
Speaker 1: differences of what our approach was and what theirs was.

1221
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:22,640
Speaker 1: And ultimately the next album, Fear of Music. Tell me

1222
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:28,880
Speaker 1: about the album cover, well, I designed the deck plate.

1223
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 1: It actually was influenced by because Tina's brother, who was

1224
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:35,880
Speaker 1: an architect, lived in the same loft building as Christentina

1225
01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:39,640
Speaker 1: and me and he he used a rubber version of

1226
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:43,439
Speaker 1: dech plate. It's an anti skid surface that you'll find

1227
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:51,479
Speaker 1: on the backs of Ford pickup trucks on uh Sewert.

1228
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:54,680
Speaker 1: You know those doors that opened for elevators to come

1229
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:59,840
Speaker 1: out of the sidewalk in New York City. And I

1230
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:05,439
Speaker 1: thought this would be a great cover. So I am

1231
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:08,519
Speaker 1: what So I called up the company that was making

1232
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:12,519
Speaker 1: this vinyl flooring and I said, can you make it

1233
01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:14,960
Speaker 1: thinner so we could use it for an album cover?

1234
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:18,559
Speaker 1: And they go, now, you know, we can't change our presses.

1235
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:21,040
Speaker 1: We can't do that. And I'm going, well, if we

1236
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 1: sell a half a million records, I said, well, what

1237
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:26,719
Speaker 1: about it for an order of a million square feet?

1238
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:31,200
Speaker 1: So I got the president on the on on the line.

1239
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 1: But eventually we came up with that the tolerances of

1240
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:37,479
Speaker 1: getting it the thin, that it wouldn't cost too much,

1241
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:42,479
Speaker 1: it just wasn't gonna work. Then the Queen's Litho, we

1242
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:47,320
Speaker 1: can't do this, but eventually they came around. We had

1243
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:49,960
Speaker 1: the same problem with the day Glow for talking at

1244
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:53,439
Speaker 1: seventy seven Queen's Litho, like, we can't put that kind

1245
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:55,840
Speaker 1: of ink in our in our presses. So David and

1246
01:16:55,920 --> 01:17:01,000
Speaker 1: I started calling all of these record manufacturer verse from

1247
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:03,439
Speaker 1: out in the Midwest that did poker covers that used

1248
01:17:03,479 --> 01:17:06,680
Speaker 1: Dayklow all the time, and then we said, okay, well

1249
01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:08,840
Speaker 1: we're going to use this place in Ohio they do

1250
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:10,560
Speaker 1: day Clow all the time. Well, of course at that

1251
01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:14,519
Speaker 1: point queens Litho said, of course we'll do it. And

1252
01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:18,519
Speaker 1: then of course Very Music got nominated for a Grammy,

1253
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:22,720
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, queens Litha, we're petting themselves on

1254
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:28,280
Speaker 1: the back and David, uh, sort of just the type

1255
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:33,040
Speaker 1: is basically to look like an IBM S Electric And

1256
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:35,680
Speaker 1: then I found a friend of mine was working the

1257
01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:38,799
Speaker 1: same marine who had been the drummer in the Modern Lovers,

1258
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:43,599
Speaker 1: was working for this cancer doctor. And you know, David

1259
01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:46,280
Speaker 1: had thought of the idea of the lands At photo

1260
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:50,200
Speaker 1: for the back of of more songs about buildings and food.

1261
01:17:50,280 --> 01:17:53,920
Speaker 1: So we were like really excited by things that were

1262
01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 1: imagery that was interesting and beautiful but had a meaning

1263
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:02,080
Speaker 1: beyond being sort of artistic. Okay, so the inside cover

1264
01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:08,120
Speaker 1: is a heat sensitive photograph that was used in trying

1265
01:18:08,200 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 1: to detect press camp cancer in the seventies. So we

1266
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:14,559
Speaker 1: all got our pictures taken, but David's just came out

1267
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 1: looking at the sort of weirdest and coolest, So we

1268
01:18:17,360 --> 01:18:22,519
Speaker 1: used that and life during the Wartime. Did that come

1269
01:18:22,560 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 1: to you from David totally totally done? Or to what

1270
01:18:25,240 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 1: degree was the band involved? David and I came up

1271
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:32,920
Speaker 1: with I think I came up with the chorus, and

1272
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:36,160
Speaker 1: he came up with the verse, and christ and Tina

1273
01:18:36,240 --> 01:18:39,200
Speaker 1: said that they had come up with something independently that

1274
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:44,160
Speaker 1: that led to the song. So we ended up sharing

1275
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:47,280
Speaker 1: that between the four of us. Um, I don't I

1276
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:52,560
Speaker 1: didn't quite understand what Chris and Tina were what what

1277
01:18:52,680 --> 01:18:54,680
Speaker 1: they exactly referring to, because it was something that they

1278
01:18:54,720 --> 01:18:57,439
Speaker 1: said they had done, but you know, it was that

1279
01:18:57,560 --> 01:19:00,360
Speaker 1: was so it was that's what we did. I mean,

1280
01:19:02,280 --> 01:19:04,120
Speaker 1: Fair of Music is an interesting cover because it's the

1281
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:07,240
Speaker 1: only song time where I got to write with David,

1282
01:19:07,360 --> 01:19:10,080
Speaker 1: just the two of us. So I co wrote Heaven,

1283
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:13,040
Speaker 1: I co wrote wrote Memories Can't Wait, and I co

1284
01:19:13,200 --> 01:19:17,720
Speaker 1: wrote mind You know. Then one after remain in Light

1285
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:19,439
Speaker 1: and we had this whole thing that I know you

1286
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:23,400
Speaker 1: talked to Chris about about this whole group writing experience.

1287
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:27,640
Speaker 1: I never had the opportunity to be sort of one

1288
01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:33,080
Speaker 1: on one with him, so remaining like, give me your

1289
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:36,200
Speaker 1: version of how that comes together. Well, I think it

1290
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:39,800
Speaker 1: begins with when we did the Fair of Music. We

1291
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 1: had recorded the song that became the Zimbra, but we

1292
01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:45,640
Speaker 1: never came up with lyrics. So we were sitting at

1293
01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 1: Atlantic Records listening to all the mixes. We're about to

1294
01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:52,640
Speaker 1: jump on a plane to fly to New zealand, go

1295
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:56,679
Speaker 1: on to Australia through Perth, then fly to play Pink

1296
01:19:56,720 --> 01:19:59,799
Speaker 1: Pop in Europe with a like a week vacation in Europe,

1297
01:20:01,080 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 1: and so we're at that. We listened to it and

1298
01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:05,720
Speaker 1: I go, can we just put on I don't know

1299
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:08,840
Speaker 1: what we called it at that point, track sixteen, and

1300
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:12,599
Speaker 1: we put it on and I think everyone went, that's

1301
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:15,400
Speaker 1: got to go on the record. So David and I

1302
01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:19,479
Speaker 1: flew back from Perth thirty hours to New York to

1303
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:24,320
Speaker 1: finish uh Zimbra, and that's when Brian came up with

1304
01:20:24,400 --> 01:20:27,920
Speaker 1: the idea of using the Hugo ball poem. And then

1305
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:30,360
Speaker 1: David and I went to the mastering lab with Eno

1306
01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:32,360
Speaker 1: and then left there and went and flew all night,

1307
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:35,280
Speaker 1: went and played Pink Pop in Europe. But I think

1308
01:20:35,360 --> 01:20:39,960
Speaker 1: we all realized that the that that zimbra and it's

1309
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:43,519
Speaker 1: influenced by African music was what we wanted to do next.

1310
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:47,400
Speaker 1: And so all of us were listening to Fella and

1311
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:52,080
Speaker 1: Manage to Coti that's the name of a restaurant, Manta

1312
01:20:52,160 --> 01:20:59,400
Speaker 1: da Bango, and various other things, and and we then decided,

1313
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:03,240
Speaker 1: uh that we would not write ahead of being in

1314
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:05,879
Speaker 1: the studio, but just do it in the studio itself,

1315
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:10,840
Speaker 1: because we had realized that sometimes the first time you

1316
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:13,200
Speaker 1: play a song, there's an innocence and there's a way

1317
01:21:13,240 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 1: that you play it that's different than you'll ever play

1318
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:19,439
Speaker 1: it again. And we went to capture that. And so

1319
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:22,560
Speaker 1: we got down to compass point we were working and

1320
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:24,400
Speaker 1: Rhet Davies was going to is that it was the

1321
01:21:24,479 --> 01:21:26,880
Speaker 1: engineer who had done more songs about buildings and food.

1322
01:21:27,880 --> 01:21:30,240
Speaker 1: Then you know, got wind of it and he suddenly

1323
01:21:30,400 --> 01:21:34,720
Speaker 1: was showed up and you know, getting there, Rhett was

1324
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:37,439
Speaker 1: wanting to sort of get out from under you know's

1325
01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:43,920
Speaker 1: you know wing will say, so he quit and then

1326
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:49,200
Speaker 1: you know, tried engineering but he's not he can't do it,

1327
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:52,360
Speaker 1: I mean, or he's so slow. It was, it was

1328
01:21:52,479 --> 01:21:55,800
Speaker 1: ridiculous and the assistant a compass point, couldn't do it.

1329
01:21:55,880 --> 01:21:59,519
Speaker 1: So then Dave turn flew in because he had been

1330
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:01,280
Speaker 1: working in My Life and the Bush of Ghosts with

1331
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:05,240
Speaker 1: David and you know, and he was the engineer, and

1332
01:22:05,360 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 1: he then went on to be the engineer on my

1333
01:22:07,160 --> 01:22:09,120
Speaker 1: first solo record, The Red and the Black. We got

1334
01:22:09,160 --> 01:22:14,000
Speaker 1: to be good friends and we were often going out

1335
01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:16,400
Speaker 1: and people doing one thing at a time, sometimes a

1336
01:22:16,439 --> 01:22:21,799
Speaker 1: couple of things at a time. And and uh boards

1337
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:27,519
Speaker 1: back then had a way of locking mutes, so you

1338
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:30,360
Speaker 1: could have an A button that had the mutes of

1339
01:22:30,479 --> 01:22:33,519
Speaker 1: one group and then be the other. So we would

1340
01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:36,720
Speaker 1: sort of do parts and assign them to the A

1341
01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:39,759
Speaker 1: group and the B part and go back and forth.

1342
01:22:40,720 --> 01:22:44,679
Speaker 1: And that's really how we wrote the record, with these

1343
01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:49,439
Speaker 1: groups of A groups of B. I don't I don't

1344
01:22:49,479 --> 01:22:52,080
Speaker 1: think there's very many C parts in the record. I

1345
01:22:52,120 --> 01:22:55,160
Speaker 1: think it's all A B, A B, sometimes different lyrics,

1346
01:22:55,240 --> 01:22:59,280
Speaker 1: but A B, A B. Then we you know, had

1347
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:01,760
Speaker 1: a commitment had to leave, and we decided we went

1348
01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:04,040
Speaker 1: back to New York, which I think was in some

1349
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:08,040
Speaker 1: ways we lost our momentum. And I went around and

1350
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:10,960
Speaker 1: negotiated with all the studios in New York to find

1351
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:13,599
Speaker 1: us the best deal, and we ended I had produced

1352
01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:18,960
Speaker 1: Nona Hendricks down at Philadelphia Sigma Sound, and I loved

1353
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:21,759
Speaker 1: how professional they were. So I went to Sigma Sound

1354
01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:25,280
Speaker 1: and I convinced them that they being an R and

1355
01:23:25,400 --> 01:23:28,040
Speaker 1: B studio, that by having us, we could be a

1356
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:31,000
Speaker 1: lost leader for them to get rock bands to come

1357
01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:33,679
Speaker 1: to them. So I got us this unbelievable deal there.

1358
01:23:35,040 --> 01:23:38,800
Speaker 1: Um I asked Gary Kirfurst, if you negotiated with him,

1359
01:23:38,800 --> 01:23:41,000
Speaker 1: and he goes like, no, nobody would do better the

1360
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:44,360
Speaker 1: way you already got. I just said, I want Jerry Steele.

1361
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:48,920
Speaker 1: So we went there. But David had kind of writer's cramp,

1362
01:23:49,120 --> 01:23:51,800
Speaker 1: let'll say romain and I was a very hard record

1363
01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:55,599
Speaker 1: to write melodies of lyrics too, because there it's modal,

1364
01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:59,519
Speaker 1: it doesn't have chord changes to go to places. So

1365
01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:04,919
Speaker 1: he's ruggled. And he then started picking up an instrument

1366
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 1: and started playing along to things, and this started to

1367
01:24:09,040 --> 01:24:12,519
Speaker 1: mutate what had come out of the Bahamas, which I

1368
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:15,320
Speaker 1: think was quite frustrating to Christentina because they loved what

1369
01:24:15,400 --> 01:24:17,840
Speaker 1: had come out of the Bahamas. But it was sort

1370
01:24:17,840 --> 01:24:21,920
Speaker 1: of a necessary evil for David to get back into

1371
01:24:22,439 --> 01:24:24,800
Speaker 1: sort of being inside the music and then coming up

1372
01:24:24,880 --> 01:24:31,080
Speaker 1: with lyrics and uh melodies. And I was there for

1373
01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:35,120
Speaker 1: every minute of it, and I mean sometimes just watching,

1374
01:24:35,280 --> 01:24:39,160
Speaker 1: sometimes putting in my two cents. By the time it

1375
01:24:39,280 --> 01:24:42,960
Speaker 1: was ending, we had been offered to play up at

1376
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:45,680
Speaker 1: the Heatwave Festival and to play in Central Park that

1377
01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:49,439
Speaker 1: Ron Telser had this series, and we go. I'm talking

1378
01:24:49,479 --> 01:24:51,040
Speaker 1: to David. I was like, how are we gonna record?

1379
01:24:51,240 --> 01:24:53,360
Speaker 1: How are we gonna play all this music? So he

1380
01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:55,120
Speaker 1: and I sat down and going like, Oh, we're gonna

1381
01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:57,680
Speaker 1: another keyboard player, were another guitar player, We're gonna need

1382
01:24:57,720 --> 01:25:00,360
Speaker 1: background singers. I had brought in, by the way, Nona

1383
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:03,680
Speaker 1: Hendricks to sing on the record. Brian goes like, oh,

1384
01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:05,760
Speaker 1: she'll take too long, that all singers they sing out

1385
01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:08,840
Speaker 1: of tune, and I went, Brian, trust me, it's gonna

1386
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:10,920
Speaker 1: be great. And of course the minute she was there,

1387
01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:16,960
Speaker 1: he was in heaven. So it was great. So we

1388
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:18,880
Speaker 1: got to the point that we were to be ready

1389
01:25:18,960 --> 01:25:22,760
Speaker 1: for playing this show. David Flute to l A to

1390
01:25:22,920 --> 01:25:27,120
Speaker 1: mix at El Dorado Studios with with Dave Jordan, and

1391
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:30,800
Speaker 1: I stayed with Eno and John Potoker at Sigma and

1392
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:34,360
Speaker 1: did other songs. Meanwhile, I went out. I went out

1393
01:25:34,439 --> 01:25:38,800
Speaker 1: one afternoon and hired Bernie Adrian Blue to let McDonald

1394
01:25:38,880 --> 01:25:42,559
Speaker 1: busted Jones. A day or so later, we found Steve Scales.

1395
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:43,960
Speaker 1: So I go back. I come back and go like,

1396
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:47,600
Speaker 1: we have the most incredible bad on earth. And so

1397
01:25:47,760 --> 01:25:50,400
Speaker 1: we were rehearsing at Britanny Away, which was owned by

1398
01:25:50,479 --> 01:25:55,000
Speaker 1: Pink Floyd out in Long Island City. So I called

1399
01:25:55,080 --> 01:25:57,080
Speaker 1: up everybody and I made this deal with him. I said,

1400
01:25:57,479 --> 01:25:59,840
Speaker 1: I'm gonna hire you for two weeks. We're doing two shows.

1401
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:03,840
Speaker 1: You're gonna make this money per per week. And uh,

1402
01:26:04,240 --> 01:26:07,479
Speaker 1: Bernie's wife Judy goes, who I'm still friends with, She goes,

1403
01:26:09,080 --> 01:26:12,519
Speaker 1: that was the clearest and the best negotiation I've ever

1404
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:16,000
Speaker 1: had in my life. Everything you said happened exactly as

1405
01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:19,160
Speaker 1: you said it. The first day. So I was teaching

1406
01:26:19,200 --> 01:26:21,080
Speaker 1: everybody the song, and everybody thought I was the leader

1407
01:26:21,080 --> 01:26:23,800
Speaker 1: of the band, and then David shows up. They go like,

1408
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:25,720
Speaker 1: who's he? And then he started singing the song and

1409
01:26:25,760 --> 01:26:27,840
Speaker 1: they like, oh, he's the lead singer and he does

1410
01:26:27,880 --> 01:26:35,479
Speaker 1: all this other stuff. So and the record is, you know,

1411
01:26:35,840 --> 01:26:38,519
Speaker 1: it's the most you know, it's the most influential and

1412
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:41,000
Speaker 1: amazing record we did. I mean, I think my two

1413
01:26:41,080 --> 01:26:45,360
Speaker 1: favorites are fair of music and and and remain in light.

1414
01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:48,880
Speaker 1: Although speaking in tongues is really been growing on me

1415
01:26:48,960 --> 01:26:52,800
Speaker 1: a lot lately. But I love I love, I love

1416
01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:54,760
Speaker 1: them all. And it's of course interesting because I haven't

1417
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:57,560
Speaker 1: done the atmos Max is like, they're much fresher in

1418
01:26:57,680 --> 01:27:01,040
Speaker 1: my mind. Again, So you play your own music, you

1419
01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:04,519
Speaker 1: play your own records, but not that often. Mainly I

1420
01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:06,679
Speaker 1: hear him in stores or on the radio and stuff

1421
01:27:06,680 --> 01:27:11,200
Speaker 1: like that. Okay, Now, Gary told me a story that

1422
01:27:11,880 --> 01:27:15,360
Speaker 1: Eno was trying to weazle in to get an equal

1423
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:17,240
Speaker 1: royalty as a member of the band. Is said, I

1424
01:27:17,320 --> 01:27:20,080
Speaker 1: earned it, and Gary said, no problem, the band's going

1425
01:27:20,120 --> 01:27:22,479
Speaker 1: out on a tour. Just show up, and then that

1426
01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:25,240
Speaker 1: solved the whole problem. It's exactly right. You know, he

1427
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:29,200
Speaker 1: was like someone who he had stage right. It's amazing

1428
01:27:29,240 --> 01:27:31,640
Speaker 1: that he's such a confident guy. It's amazing stage right.

1429
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:33,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, no way he was going to do that,

1430
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:40,320
Speaker 1: and and and you know he was Edo lost an

1431
01:27:40,360 --> 01:27:43,720
Speaker 1: opportunity though, you know, went on to doing music from

1432
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:46,920
Speaker 1: airports at that point, which was which was great, and

1433
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 1: it was sort of the beginning of ambient music. But

1434
01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 1: we would have been happy to have been Ino's backup

1435
01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:57,679
Speaker 1: band on another record like Remain in Light with him singing,

1436
01:27:57,760 --> 01:28:02,080
Speaker 1: had he wanted to do it, so he he lost

1437
01:28:02,120 --> 01:28:05,639
Speaker 1: an opportunity to because when he was singing with Nona,

1438
01:28:06,400 --> 01:28:10,240
Speaker 1: to me, it's the only time I ever heard him

1439
01:28:10,360 --> 01:28:15,280
Speaker 1: sing that didn't seem careful. It seemed like he got

1440
01:28:15,400 --> 01:28:18,120
Speaker 1: so into the moment and with her that he started

1441
01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:21,880
Speaker 1: to see sing with some excitement in his voice, not

1442
01:28:22,160 --> 01:28:26,960
Speaker 1: that sort of careful, pure tone that he does almost

1443
01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:29,479
Speaker 1: all the other times. Look, can you tell me about

1444
01:28:29,600 --> 01:28:33,639
Speaker 1: Once in a Lifetime? The most the strangest thing about

1445
01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:39,360
Speaker 1: Once in a Lifetime was that with the base being

1446
01:28:39,439 --> 01:28:42,600
Speaker 1: on the upbeat and the drums on this downbeat, that

1447
01:28:42,960 --> 01:28:47,200
Speaker 1: how you mixed it, you could decide that the one

1448
01:28:47,439 --> 01:28:50,960
Speaker 1: was one place or a half beat later. There's a

1449
01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:56,040
Speaker 1: there's an ambiguity there. The way we went out and

1450
01:28:56,080 --> 01:28:59,280
Speaker 1: played it live, everyone has changed the bass part to

1451
01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:02,720
Speaker 1: be with the drums. But on the record, if you're

1452
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:08,760
Speaker 1: going one, two, three, four, one done done, done on,

1453
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:13,360
Speaker 1: done on, But if you put the base up louder,

1454
01:29:13,479 --> 01:29:20,120
Speaker 1: you think that's the one. So it has this sort of. Uh,

1455
01:29:21,439 --> 01:29:27,559
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, uneasyness will say that gives

1456
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:29,840
Speaker 1: it attention that I think is really special to it.

1457
01:29:31,160 --> 01:29:36,080
Speaker 1: So Remaining in Light was not only different from the

1458
01:29:36,280 --> 01:29:39,760
Speaker 1: previous Talking Heads album, was different from anything else in

1459
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:45,240
Speaker 1: the marketplace. Were you worried about audience acceptance into what degreed?

1460
01:29:45,360 --> 01:29:48,680
Speaker 1: Did you think the audience would accept it? Well? I

1461
01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:50,519
Speaker 1: think that after we did the tour, but before the

1462
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:55,120
Speaker 1: record came out, we played heat Wave and Central Park

1463
01:29:55,200 --> 01:29:58,879
Speaker 1: and everybody went insane for it, so we were pretty confident.

1464
01:29:59,560 --> 01:30:02,040
Speaker 1: It took years for the sales to catch up to

1465
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:06,960
Speaker 1: fair of music though, And how did you know Adrian

1466
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:13,880
Speaker 1: Blue and Bernie Warrell and stuff? So Adrian we he

1467
01:30:14,040 --> 01:30:16,320
Speaker 1: first saw us at the accident, but we didn't see

1468
01:30:16,439 --> 01:30:19,840
Speaker 1: him there. I think that, you know, Mona told us

1469
01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:21,600
Speaker 1: about us, and then he came and saw us and

1470
01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:25,479
Speaker 1: chammed with us. He was living in Champagne, Urbana, and

1471
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:30,280
Speaker 1: he's from Cincinnati I think originally um and he played

1472
01:30:30,320 --> 01:30:32,680
Speaker 1: with us a few times. And how he ended up

1473
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:38,559
Speaker 1: on uh fir on Remaining Light is that I noticed

1474
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:42,680
Speaker 1: that he was playing at the Mud Club. My recollection

1475
01:30:42,800 --> 01:30:44,320
Speaker 1: is that I went down and talked to him but

1476
01:30:44,400 --> 01:30:48,160
Speaker 1: I guess maybe that he said remembers that Brian David

1477
01:30:48,200 --> 01:30:50,559
Speaker 1: and I went down and he came up the next day.

1478
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:54,160
Speaker 1: He tells a wonderful story. He goes, we're no lyrics,

1479
01:30:55,400 --> 01:30:57,680
Speaker 1: and he said, well, he went out in the room

1480
01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:00,120
Speaker 1: and this is for the Great Curve, one of his

1481
01:31:00,320 --> 01:31:03,160
Speaker 1: all time best solos and he ever played in his life.

1482
01:31:04,680 --> 01:31:09,000
Speaker 1: And I think. He goes, We'll just listen and when

1483
01:31:09,040 --> 01:31:11,559
Speaker 1: you think of solo, should come in play a solo.

1484
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:17,519
Speaker 1: And then when you stop, stop and then listen for

1485
01:31:17,560 --> 01:31:19,519
Speaker 1: a while longer, and then come in when you think

1486
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:21,360
Speaker 1: something that would you would play a part for the

1487
01:31:21,479 --> 01:31:24,320
Speaker 1: end of the song. So he's getting set up and

1488
01:31:24,360 --> 01:31:28,439
Speaker 1: he's listening and he plays it and he goes, okay,

1489
01:31:28,479 --> 01:31:31,640
Speaker 1: I think I'm ready, and we go We're finished. That

1490
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:35,600
Speaker 1: was fantastic. It was so great, and we went on

1491
01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:40,000
Speaker 1: from there. I then got to He then moved up

1492
01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:45,400
Speaker 1: to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin with his first wife, Um, and

1493
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:48,040
Speaker 1: I was gone back to Milwaukee to take care of

1494
01:31:48,160 --> 01:31:51,599
Speaker 1: my mother because my father died suddenly. My mother had cancer,

1495
01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:55,160
Speaker 1: so I was splitting my time between New York and Milwaukee,

1496
01:31:55,160 --> 01:32:00,479
Speaker 1: and I found this little studio called DV recording that

1497
01:32:00,640 --> 01:32:04,080
Speaker 1: was in a bomb shelter, and it was actually the

1498
01:32:04,120 --> 01:32:06,599
Speaker 1: bomb shelter had been the bedroom of my best friend

1499
01:32:06,640 --> 01:32:10,759
Speaker 1: in nursery school in grade school, and he had committed

1500
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:14,000
Speaker 1: suicide after after high school, but his younger brother had

1501
01:32:14,080 --> 01:32:17,439
Speaker 1: taken over his parents house and I got to love

1502
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:20,240
Speaker 1: working there. And you know, this was at a period

1503
01:32:20,360 --> 01:32:23,160
Speaker 1: where an eight hour block in New York cost a

1504
01:32:23,200 --> 01:32:26,560
Speaker 1: thousand dollars and I was getting his studio for a

1505
01:32:26,640 --> 01:32:30,320
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a week. But he could do any commercials

1506
01:32:30,400 --> 01:32:32,080
Speaker 1: you want. And that's how I taught myself how to

1507
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:33,960
Speaker 1: be a good producer, because I could take the time.

1508
01:32:34,000 --> 01:32:37,120
Speaker 1: I was basically working on the record that became Casual

1509
01:32:37,200 --> 01:32:41,000
Speaker 1: Gods with him. But then I produced a single for

1510
01:32:41,080 --> 01:32:43,479
Speaker 1: a band called It's in Material that was a top

1511
01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:45,800
Speaker 1: ten hit in although I took my name off it

1512
01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:47,519
Speaker 1: because I was piste off at what they did in

1513
01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:51,000
Speaker 1: the mix. In England, I produced the Blind Leading the

1514
01:32:51,120 --> 01:33:00,840
Speaker 1: Naked for the Piling Fems. There I produced um Oh

1515
01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:05,280
Speaker 1: Elliott Murphy's album Milwaukee. There, I just did a lot

1516
01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:08,760
Speaker 1: of stuff and I met my wife there. How do

1517
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:12,479
Speaker 1: you meet your wife? I had tried to pick up

1518
01:33:12,640 --> 01:33:15,080
Speaker 1: in a bar with her boyfriend. There was a there

1519
01:33:15,200 --> 01:33:18,879
Speaker 1: was these uh there was like some of my favorite

1520
01:33:19,160 --> 01:33:22,439
Speaker 1: musicians from Milwaukee had a sort of supergroup will say,

1521
01:33:23,439 --> 01:33:25,720
Speaker 1: and all the musicians in Milwaukee would go on like

1522
01:33:25,800 --> 01:33:28,160
Speaker 1: Tuesday night to see them. And then a year later

1523
01:33:28,800 --> 01:33:32,120
Speaker 1: when I walked in the studio, she was the bookkeeper.

1524
01:33:33,720 --> 01:33:36,080
Speaker 1: It was there were a lot of things that had

1525
01:33:36,160 --> 01:33:38,200
Speaker 1: to fall. She was engaged to get married. It was

1526
01:33:38,479 --> 01:33:43,280
Speaker 1: it was let's say, um with it. It was a

1527
01:33:43,479 --> 01:33:45,960
Speaker 1: bunch of things to negotiate. But happily we did it.

1528
01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:49,360
Speaker 1: And we're still a little bit slower. She's the bookkeeper.

1529
01:33:49,479 --> 01:33:52,400
Speaker 1: You're seeing her all the time. She's engaged. How do

1530
01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:57,040
Speaker 1: how do we make the transition? She said. I walked

1531
01:33:57,080 --> 01:33:59,160
Speaker 1: in and there was like the electricity was there, and

1532
01:33:59,240 --> 01:34:06,840
Speaker 1: she goes, oh, and we started, uh kind of seeing

1533
01:34:06,880 --> 01:34:09,080
Speaker 1: each other on the slide because I had a girlfriend then,

1534
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:13,680
Speaker 1: and uh, we just realized that we were the two

1535
01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:15,800
Speaker 1: of us were soul mates and we had But it

1536
01:34:15,880 --> 01:34:19,040
Speaker 1: took me a while. You know, she was a little

1537
01:34:19,040 --> 01:34:21,280
Speaker 1: more decisive than I. Wy I was. It took a

1538
01:34:21,320 --> 01:34:23,560
Speaker 1: little while, but we did that and now we have

1539
01:34:23,680 --> 01:34:28,200
Speaker 1: three kids and it's great, Okay, and what did the

1540
01:34:28,280 --> 01:34:34,519
Speaker 1: guys say. I think that they were I'm happy that

1541
01:34:34,600 --> 01:34:38,040
Speaker 1: I found someone that uh, well, I seemed to be

1542
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:42,760
Speaker 1: in love with no no, no guy she dubbed. Well.

1543
01:34:42,880 --> 01:34:44,280
Speaker 1: It was hard for him because he was a big

1544
01:34:44,320 --> 01:34:46,839
Speaker 1: Talking Hints fan. So at first he was really delighted

1545
01:34:46,880 --> 01:34:49,559
Speaker 1: that I was around. Then he realized that maybe wasn't

1546
01:34:49,640 --> 01:34:52,519
Speaker 1: so good. But all he had to get over it.

1547
01:34:52,640 --> 01:34:54,559
Speaker 1: You know, it was too bad. It was it was messy.

1548
01:34:54,680 --> 01:35:04,439
Speaker 1: I'm not you know, it was bessy. Okay. The The

1549
01:35:04,560 --> 01:35:07,800
Speaker 1: cover of Heaven is by Iva Davies in Berlin. You

1550
01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:11,439
Speaker 1: can uh it's built his ice house on Spotify, you

1551
01:35:11,439 --> 01:35:15,200
Speaker 1: can check it out. But you're now going on the

1552
01:35:15,320 --> 01:35:19,760
Speaker 1: road with Remaining Light with Adrian. How did that come together? Well,

1553
01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:22,320
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this for ten years that there

1554
01:35:22,439 --> 01:35:25,600
Speaker 1: is this YouTube video from Talking Heads in Rome in

1555
01:35:27,720 --> 01:35:31,160
Speaker 1: and for Adrian lives in Nashville right now. And as

1556
01:35:31,200 --> 01:35:33,040
Speaker 1: I said, I did this movie Take Me the River,

1557
01:35:33,160 --> 01:35:35,240
Speaker 1: and we were at the Nashville Film Festival, and we

1558
01:35:35,320 --> 01:35:38,640
Speaker 1: did a screening for the Nashville chapter of the Grammys,

1559
01:35:38,800 --> 01:35:41,160
Speaker 1: and I don't know, there was just a bunch of

1560
01:35:41,240 --> 01:35:43,639
Speaker 1: reasons that I suddenly went to Nashville, and I'd always

1561
01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:46,240
Speaker 1: have dinner with Adrian and we just talked about how

1562
01:35:46,320 --> 01:35:49,160
Speaker 1: great that was ego. You know, my fans say, that's

1563
01:35:49,200 --> 01:35:51,880
Speaker 1: the most joyful concert they've ever seen. And I said,

1564
01:35:52,560 --> 01:35:55,240
Speaker 1: we got to find a way to recreate this. And

1565
01:35:55,320 --> 01:35:58,439
Speaker 1: then I produced this band, turk Quase, who were big

1566
01:35:58,479 --> 01:36:02,360
Speaker 1: fans of Talking Heads, And I said, Adrian had another

1567
01:36:02,400 --> 01:36:07,519
Speaker 1: way of using session musicians, So I don't want session musicians. Hey,

1568
01:36:07,800 --> 01:36:10,080
Speaker 1: they'll never they won't ever share a room, and you

1569
01:36:10,160 --> 01:36:15,160
Speaker 1: know it's not gonna work. So I suggested Turquoise. So

1570
01:36:16,640 --> 01:36:19,799
Speaker 1: Turquoise had a show at the Exident and we booked

1571
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:23,640
Speaker 1: a rehearsal room after it, and Adrian I went to

1572
01:36:23,720 --> 01:36:26,000
Speaker 1: see them, and then we did a rehearsal one day

1573
01:36:26,760 --> 01:36:30,680
Speaker 1: and Adrian goes, you were right, this band is perfect. Uh,

1574
01:36:31,200 --> 01:36:33,160
Speaker 1: so we did. So we were was all supposed to

1575
01:36:33,200 --> 01:36:36,839
Speaker 1: take place in the fourth anniversary, but of course COVID happened,

1576
01:36:37,880 --> 01:36:42,919
Speaker 1: So it's happened over twenty two playing festivals. Eventually Turquise

1577
01:36:43,040 --> 01:36:47,920
Speaker 1: broke up. So actually it's not the lead singer and

1578
01:36:48,000 --> 01:36:49,640
Speaker 1: not the bass player, but all the other members of

1579
01:36:49,720 --> 01:36:55,120
Speaker 1: Turquoise and then Adrian's uh bass player from his trio,

1580
01:36:55,439 --> 01:36:59,439
Speaker 1: Julie is now playing bass. It's actually better now because

1581
01:36:59,520 --> 01:37:04,280
Speaker 1: Adrian I sing more. And you know, we had an

1582
01:37:04,280 --> 01:37:08,360
Speaker 1: amazing experience. We played it Hardly Strictly the Bluegrass Festival

1583
01:37:09,120 --> 01:37:13,120
Speaker 1: in San Francisco, Fisco. We played the fifty thousand people

1584
01:37:13,160 --> 01:37:17,760
Speaker 1: there in October and after Elvis Costello, and there was

1585
01:37:18,040 --> 01:37:23,959
Speaker 1: a a wave of joy that just went over the audience.

1586
01:37:25,240 --> 01:37:29,120
Speaker 1: It was It's one of the most remarkable evenings of

1587
01:37:29,200 --> 01:37:33,040
Speaker 1: my life. And you can see it by going to

1588
01:37:33,240 --> 01:37:36,759
Speaker 1: Hardly Strictly and they will say Jerry Harrison and Adrian Blue.

1589
01:37:37,680 --> 01:37:40,320
Speaker 1: So now we're taking it on a more sort of

1590
01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:43,639
Speaker 1: serious tour us. It's really a tour for twenty year olds.

1591
01:37:43,800 --> 01:37:48,200
Speaker 1: Like five days on, one day off hoping I hold up,

1592
01:37:48,439 --> 01:37:54,360
Speaker 1: I mean Minneapolis in February. Sounds kind of dicey to me,

1593
01:37:55,360 --> 01:37:58,960
Speaker 1: but that's what I'm doing now. If you look on

1594
01:37:59,439 --> 01:38:01,280
Speaker 1: if you look at the tracks you played, the songs

1595
01:38:01,360 --> 01:38:05,320
Speaker 1: you played, it was from throughout talking hits career. Is

1596
01:38:05,360 --> 01:38:07,640
Speaker 1: it going to be the album remain in Life of

1597
01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:10,200
Speaker 1: beginning to end or is it gonna be like that? Now?

1598
01:38:10,320 --> 01:38:13,679
Speaker 1: It's like the show in Rome. So it has songs

1599
01:38:13,760 --> 01:38:17,280
Speaker 1: from Fear of Music and as Psycho Killer, we do

1600
01:38:17,479 --> 01:38:21,720
Speaker 1: one King Crimson song, we do rev it up my

1601
01:38:21,880 --> 01:38:29,240
Speaker 1: solo song, and the girls in the Turquoise had been

1602
01:38:29,320 --> 01:38:33,280
Speaker 1: doing Slippery People, and so since maybe his Staples does

1603
01:38:33,680 --> 01:38:39,439
Speaker 1: Slippery People, uh, we are doing a version of Slippery

1604
01:38:39,520 --> 01:38:41,840
Speaker 1: People that the girls in the band sing. So we're

1605
01:38:42,120 --> 01:38:45,040
Speaker 1: sort of we're sort of venturing three songs away from

1606
01:38:45,280 --> 01:38:48,439
Speaker 1: what we did in Rome, and we've we've thrown out

1607
01:38:48,479 --> 01:38:51,160
Speaker 1: a couple of the songs from Rome, but we're not

1608
01:38:51,920 --> 01:38:54,519
Speaker 1: it's not we're not going any further into the Talking

1609
01:38:54,600 --> 01:38:57,880
Speaker 1: Hits career, except for of course, Slippery People Beyonder Man

1610
01:38:57,960 --> 01:39:01,600
Speaker 1: in Life. Oh okay, when was the last time you

1611
01:39:01,680 --> 01:39:05,640
Speaker 1: were on a tour other than these one offs that

1612
01:39:05,680 --> 01:39:11,719
Speaker 1: I've done with this, It would have been I think

1613
01:39:11,800 --> 01:39:18,200
Speaker 1: the tour for uh hm, no talking just heads with

1614
01:39:18,360 --> 01:39:21,600
Speaker 1: christ and Tina. And how many years ago was that?

1615
01:39:23,160 --> 01:39:28,200
Speaker 1: Nineties six or some long time? Okay, tell me about

1616
01:39:28,200 --> 01:39:30,920
Speaker 1: the genesis of the movie and how you felt about

1617
01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:37,760
Speaker 1: the movie with the Big Suit, et cetera. Well, the

1618
01:39:37,800 --> 01:39:41,120
Speaker 1: original band, which was what Adrian and I are trying

1619
01:39:41,160 --> 01:39:48,799
Speaker 1: to capture, started. Adrian left to join King Crimson, which honestly,

1620
01:39:48,920 --> 01:39:50,840
Speaker 1: I recommended that he do. I thought it was a

1621
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:53,000
Speaker 1: very good move for his career, even though I missed

1622
01:39:53,080 --> 01:39:55,760
Speaker 1: him the idea that he'd be playing for us and

1623
01:39:58,439 --> 01:40:02,400
Speaker 1: we and Alex we are joined a band. Uh don't

1624
01:40:02,439 --> 01:40:11,120
Speaker 1: let McDonald got stolen by the police. Tina rightly realized

1625
01:40:11,160 --> 01:40:14,840
Speaker 1: that having two bass players was confusing. I think that

1626
01:40:14,960 --> 01:40:17,240
Speaker 1: David and I heard that there were places on remaining

1627
01:40:17,320 --> 01:40:19,000
Speaker 1: like where there were two basses, and we were trying

1628
01:40:19,000 --> 01:40:23,000
Speaker 1: to emulate that. But on stage there were times in

1629
01:40:23,120 --> 01:40:26,439
Speaker 1: that band where it was like very abstract. It was

1630
01:40:26,520 --> 01:40:28,160
Speaker 1: like one side of the band went this way and

1631
01:40:28,280 --> 01:40:30,720
Speaker 1: one side of the band went this way. I wish

1632
01:40:30,760 --> 01:40:32,880
Speaker 1: we had recordings of every night because it would have

1633
01:40:32,920 --> 01:40:35,720
Speaker 1: been like Charles Eves or something that would have been fantastic.

1634
01:40:37,040 --> 01:40:40,160
Speaker 1: So and so it got a little more locked down

1635
01:40:40,920 --> 01:40:44,479
Speaker 1: when we did the tour for speaking in Tongues and

1636
01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:48,479
Speaker 1: then and it was getting a little more visual. And

1637
01:40:48,600 --> 01:40:52,400
Speaker 1: then David um, you know, he had done the Catherine

1638
01:40:52,439 --> 01:40:56,760
Speaker 1: Wheel with Twilt Tharpe, which actually I worked on for

1639
01:40:56,920 --> 01:41:00,800
Speaker 1: quite a while as well, and he I think it

1640
01:41:00,880 --> 01:41:02,880
Speaker 1: was getting more into like staging. He had worked with

1641
01:41:03,040 --> 01:41:06,640
Speaker 1: Robert Wilson on the Civil Wars, So I think he

1642
01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:11,600
Speaker 1: wanted to do something that had that visual element, and

1643
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:16,280
Speaker 1: so he started talking to stage designers and other stuff

1644
01:41:16,280 --> 01:41:19,200
Speaker 1: and coming up with ideas, and a couple of a

1645
01:41:19,280 --> 01:41:22,840
Speaker 1: few ideas we threw in and uh, it got sort

1646
01:41:22,880 --> 01:41:26,799
Speaker 1: of designed that way. The big suit comes from Kabuki

1647
01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:30,120
Speaker 1: theater and he had two of them made. A friend

1648
01:41:30,160 --> 01:41:32,560
Speaker 1: of mine who I knew, designed the one that he

1649
01:41:32,680 --> 01:41:37,960
Speaker 1: used the most. And you know, this idea of building

1650
01:41:38,040 --> 01:41:41,000
Speaker 1: the stage we had sort of, you know, in the beginning,

1651
01:41:41,160 --> 01:41:43,040
Speaker 1: like even a heat wave. We came out as a

1652
01:41:43,120 --> 01:41:46,040
Speaker 1: foresome and then grew into the band. So this idea

1653
01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:51,320
Speaker 1: of getting of growing from little too big already been born,

1654
01:41:51,520 --> 01:41:55,200
Speaker 1: but it became much more going all the way, one

1655
01:41:55,280 --> 01:41:57,120
Speaker 1: person at a time by the time we got to

1656
01:41:57,760 --> 01:42:00,840
Speaker 1: to stop making sense. And I think one of the

1657
01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:07,360
Speaker 1: enduring qualities of stop making sense is that what David

1658
01:42:07,439 --> 01:42:11,560
Speaker 1: and the lighting designers came up with used technology that

1659
01:42:11,800 --> 01:42:14,000
Speaker 1: really was sort of could have been there in the thirties.

1660
01:42:15,280 --> 01:42:22,400
Speaker 1: You know, a rear screen, projection lights, handheld lights. There's

1661
01:42:22,479 --> 01:42:25,680
Speaker 1: there was nothing. There were no very lights. There are

1662
01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:28,640
Speaker 1: no things that were like of that time period. So

1663
01:42:28,760 --> 01:42:32,840
Speaker 1: therefore it becomes timeless, could be could be recreated out

1664
01:42:32,880 --> 01:42:35,880
Speaker 1: of like supper stock someplace, or it could be done

1665
01:42:36,760 --> 01:42:40,759
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't rely on technology. How did Jonathan

1666
01:42:40,840 --> 01:42:43,840
Speaker 1: Demi get involved? I think he saw the show and said, like,

1667
01:42:44,160 --> 01:42:48,800
Speaker 1: this is fantastic. I want to film this. Okay. When

1668
01:42:48,880 --> 01:42:52,519
Speaker 1: did you realize that David wasn't going to want to

1669
01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:57,560
Speaker 1: do it anymore? Or was that always a factor in

1670
01:42:57,680 --> 01:42:59,400
Speaker 1: the back of your mind or was it a shock?

1671
01:43:02,320 --> 01:43:04,759
Speaker 1: Have you been through the breakup of the Modern Lovers.

1672
01:43:05,479 --> 01:43:07,920
Speaker 1: I thought it was inevitable to happen at some point,

1673
01:43:09,800 --> 01:43:12,519
Speaker 1: and my goal was to feel that I was prepared

1674
01:43:12,640 --> 01:43:21,800
Speaker 1: for that change to happen. UM. But up through True Stories,

1675
01:43:23,920 --> 01:43:26,919
Speaker 1: I thought that we we were just we're going to continue.

1676
01:43:26,960 --> 01:43:30,240
Speaker 1: Although I was really disappointed that we'd stopped touring. I

1677
01:43:30,320 --> 01:43:32,639
Speaker 1: think there was an element that the success of stopped

1678
01:43:32,680 --> 01:43:39,240
Speaker 1: making sense that David I didn't want to uh compete

1679
01:43:39,320 --> 01:43:43,360
Speaker 1: with himself, so to speak. Um. There was a moment

1680
01:43:43,439 --> 01:43:45,800
Speaker 1: when we did little creatures where we talked about doing

1681
01:43:46,760 --> 01:43:51,880
Speaker 1: going to uh doing residencies in different times, like do

1682
01:43:52,040 --> 01:43:54,439
Speaker 1: six days at the Beacon and then there's six days

1683
01:43:54,520 --> 01:43:57,640
Speaker 1: at the Theater in Chicago and six days of Philadelphia

1684
01:43:57,680 --> 01:44:01,040
Speaker 1: and Los Angeles and San Francisco, because then we could

1685
01:44:01,040 --> 01:44:05,760
Speaker 1: have had more constant lighting and things like that, but

1686
01:44:07,400 --> 01:44:10,519
Speaker 1: his desire to move on to true story sort of

1687
01:44:10,760 --> 01:44:14,519
Speaker 1: short circuited that. One of my great disappointments is we

1688
01:44:14,600 --> 01:44:18,920
Speaker 1: were offered to play Live Aid and we would have

1689
01:44:19,040 --> 01:44:20,920
Speaker 1: killed it. We were the best band of the world,

1690
01:44:21,000 --> 01:44:24,439
Speaker 1: I thought at that point live and if you look

1691
01:44:24,479 --> 01:44:27,960
Speaker 1: at the success of You two and Peter Gabriel, it

1692
01:44:28,120 --> 01:44:31,759
Speaker 1: really grew out of Live Aid and that they also

1693
01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:36,400
Speaker 1: we're cognizant of the social issues and could talk coherently

1694
01:44:36,400 --> 01:44:38,840
Speaker 1: about those, and we could have done that as well.

1695
01:44:39,400 --> 01:44:41,400
Speaker 1: And I tried to get the David to do it,

1696
01:44:41,520 --> 01:44:44,720
Speaker 1: but he was too involved in scouting out locations or

1697
01:44:44,800 --> 01:44:48,360
Speaker 1: something in Texas and didn't want to do it. Then

1698
01:44:48,439 --> 01:44:50,599
Speaker 1: it was like, okay, well, we aren't touring, but we're

1699
01:44:50,640 --> 01:44:54,479
Speaker 1: making studio albums. And when we got up to Naked

1700
01:44:55,520 --> 01:44:58,240
Speaker 1: Um he had written some songs, but we said, we

1701
01:44:58,360 --> 01:45:00,640
Speaker 1: like what we've done. Two albums of you of just

1702
01:45:00,800 --> 01:45:02,519
Speaker 1: your songs, when why don't we go back to the

1703
01:45:03,439 --> 01:45:07,599
Speaker 1: model of speaking in tongues and remain in light, which

1704
01:45:07,640 --> 01:45:09,040
Speaker 1: I don't think he was. I think he was a

1705
01:45:09,120 --> 01:45:11,760
Speaker 1: little bit annoyed by that. It's interesting when he came

1706
01:45:11,800 --> 01:45:14,760
Speaker 1: out with I think it was Ray Momo, he said

1707
01:45:14,800 --> 01:45:16,760
Speaker 1: they were the same songs, but they didn't sound the

1708
01:45:16,800 --> 01:45:19,439
Speaker 1: same at all to me. I was in the middle

1709
01:45:19,479 --> 01:45:22,160
Speaker 1: of producing the Boudin's at the same time. I just

1710
01:45:22,320 --> 01:45:26,240
Speaker 1: had a baby with my wife, so I sure had

1711
01:45:26,240 --> 01:45:29,000
Speaker 1: a lot on my mind. But we went off to

1712
01:45:29,600 --> 01:45:32,280
Speaker 1: uh to Paris and just had a great time making

1713
01:45:32,320 --> 01:45:36,040
Speaker 1: this record and Wally Battery who introduced us to a

1714
01:45:36,120 --> 01:45:40,439
Speaker 1: lot of African musicians, and I knew a fellas manager,

1715
01:45:40,560 --> 01:45:46,800
Speaker 1: so I was also finding musicians and uh, it was

1716
01:45:46,880 --> 01:45:50,560
Speaker 1: great fun there. Um, but I could see that, you know,

1717
01:45:50,720 --> 01:45:56,519
Speaker 1: David also had met Bonnie, and Bonnie I think was

1718
01:45:56,640 --> 01:46:02,920
Speaker 1: reinforcing red david career. It will say more in the

1719
01:46:03,160 --> 01:46:06,200
Speaker 1: art world rather than the rocket world. Rocket rolled world

1720
01:46:06,360 --> 01:46:10,479
Speaker 1: was a better avenue for him to go to pursue

1721
01:46:10,680 --> 01:46:14,120
Speaker 1: his many interests. And I think that when he got

1722
01:46:14,160 --> 01:46:19,559
Speaker 1: on the cover of Time magazine as a you know, filmmaker, musician, artist,

1723
01:46:20,120 --> 01:46:22,200
Speaker 1: I don't know what else, dance or whatever it said.

1724
01:46:23,479 --> 01:46:25,880
Speaker 1: By this point he had his own office and I

1725
01:46:26,040 --> 01:46:27,800
Speaker 1: was like, Wow, this is going to be very hard

1726
01:46:28,640 --> 01:46:31,360
Speaker 1: because He's really used to having people now around him

1727
01:46:31,400 --> 01:46:35,320
Speaker 1: that always say yes or are very careful where they

1728
01:46:35,360 --> 01:46:38,759
Speaker 1: say no. One of the great things about a band

1729
01:46:39,240 --> 01:46:43,320
Speaker 1: is you have the honesty of people like don't way

1730
01:46:43,320 --> 01:46:46,200
Speaker 1: am I going to do that? And I think the bands,

1731
01:46:47,240 --> 01:46:49,720
Speaker 1: uh I have only storious about bands. I think the

1732
01:46:49,800 --> 01:46:55,000
Speaker 1: bands are the only successful communist art for UM, because

1733
01:46:55,160 --> 01:46:58,880
Speaker 1: it really is can be a group decision. There was

1734
01:46:58,920 --> 01:47:01,800
Speaker 1: a visual group that around Victor Vassarelli called the g

1735
01:47:02,080 --> 01:47:04,919
Speaker 1: R a V that did optical art at the forties,

1736
01:47:05,560 --> 01:47:11,120
Speaker 1: but eventually Vassarelli got discovered as the major uh UM

1737
01:47:13,240 --> 01:47:15,840
Speaker 1: talent there. And it's sort of so it broke down.

1738
01:47:17,439 --> 01:47:19,599
Speaker 1: But what do you have your own office and you're

1739
01:47:19,840 --> 01:47:25,040
Speaker 1: having people who are always supportive? You know, it's sort

1740
01:47:25,080 --> 01:47:26,840
Speaker 1: of like the brothers and sisters that are a pain

1741
01:47:26,880 --> 01:47:28,800
Speaker 1: in the ass. It's like this, God, do I have

1742
01:47:28,880 --> 01:47:32,200
Speaker 1: to deal with them again? So, you know, once he

1743
01:47:32,280 --> 01:47:33,720
Speaker 1: was on the cover of Time, I knew that it

1744
01:47:33,760 --> 01:47:36,360
Speaker 1: would be a very it would be hard to keep

1745
01:47:36,400 --> 01:47:40,000
Speaker 1: it together. David, of course, is filled with ideas. He's

1746
01:47:40,120 --> 01:47:46,040
Speaker 1: really really good at efficiently using and sometimes reusing as ideas.

1747
01:47:47,080 --> 01:47:50,080
Speaker 1: You know, I learned an immense amount about how to

1748
01:47:50,280 --> 01:47:53,360
Speaker 1: do certain things from both Jonathan and David. It's really

1749
01:47:53,439 --> 01:47:57,920
Speaker 1: interesting how you'll have an epiphany about something you've been

1750
01:47:57,920 --> 01:48:00,519
Speaker 1: struggling with and then you watch somebody else doing you're like, oh,

1751
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:02,840
Speaker 1: I could do it that way. I go all the

1752
01:48:02,880 --> 01:48:09,160
Speaker 1: way back to I was in kindergarten and the the

1753
01:48:09,479 --> 01:48:13,120
Speaker 1: brother of the the guy who had the recording studio

1754
01:48:13,160 --> 01:48:15,880
Speaker 1: and the bomb shelter, who was one of my closest friends,

1755
01:48:16,040 --> 01:48:23,519
Speaker 1: was this sort of precocious artistic genius. And the teacher

1756
01:48:23,560 --> 01:48:26,280
Speaker 1: in kindergarten asked everybody in the class to draw a cat,

1757
01:48:27,320 --> 01:48:31,920
Speaker 1: and everybody draw a cat with like, you know, your

1758
01:48:32,040 --> 01:48:36,960
Speaker 1: arms straight out like like pegs. But Michael drew it

1759
01:48:37,120 --> 01:48:39,360
Speaker 1: like with the cat running like the legs were bent,

1760
01:48:40,280 --> 01:48:42,840
Speaker 1: and the teachers showed it to us, like what's different

1761
01:48:42,880 --> 01:48:46,680
Speaker 1: about Michael's drawings than you yours? And then kind of

1762
01:48:47,400 --> 01:48:50,360
Speaker 1: some people didn't even notice, and it was like and

1763
01:48:50,439 --> 01:48:54,240
Speaker 1: it was like, wow, first of all, I'll never draw

1764
01:48:54,280 --> 01:48:57,680
Speaker 1: a cat the same, but I've got to look more carefully.

1765
01:48:57,840 --> 01:49:03,000
Speaker 1: It's like, is that I'm really look really look hard,

1766
01:49:03,600 --> 01:49:05,400
Speaker 1: and so I think that, you know, there have been

1767
01:49:05,439 --> 01:49:08,920
Speaker 1: many times in my life where I've met someone and

1768
01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:11,640
Speaker 1: sometimes by helping them do things, it's allowed me to

1769
01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:13,519
Speaker 1: go like, well, I can do this now I know

1770
01:49:13,640 --> 01:49:15,360
Speaker 1: with the route for myself to do it when I've

1771
01:49:15,360 --> 01:49:17,560
Speaker 1: been struggling to find the solution to how to do it.

1772
01:49:18,080 --> 01:49:20,200
Speaker 1: So both David and Jonathan were inspiring to me in

1773
01:49:20,240 --> 01:49:26,479
Speaker 1: that way. So how did you handle emotionally the end

1774
01:49:26,520 --> 01:49:29,920
Speaker 1: of the Talking Goods. Well, I had already started making

1775
01:49:30,000 --> 01:49:33,280
Speaker 1: solo records and I'd already started becoming a music producer,

1776
01:49:34,120 --> 01:49:39,960
Speaker 1: so I just kept going with that. And financially, how

1777
01:49:40,000 --> 01:49:42,240
Speaker 1: has it worked out having been a member of Talking

1778
01:49:42,320 --> 01:49:46,800
Speaker 1: Heads record royalties which are historically poor songwriting. To what

1779
01:49:46,920 --> 01:49:49,519
Speaker 1: degree on how has it been working for you? Well,

1780
01:49:49,600 --> 01:49:52,519
Speaker 1: I my mother said, never talked about money, so I'm

1781
01:49:52,520 --> 01:49:55,120
Speaker 1: going to be a little bit cautious about this. Um

1782
01:49:56,439 --> 01:50:00,439
Speaker 1: it goes up and down. Talky has seen a resurgence lately,

1783
01:50:00,600 --> 01:50:03,559
Speaker 1: so it's gone up. As you know. I've been involved

1784
01:50:03,600 --> 01:50:08,040
Speaker 1: in a bunch of companies which have some have been

1785
01:50:08,200 --> 01:50:10,519
Speaker 1: pretty successful. Those are the kind of things where you

1786
01:50:10,600 --> 01:50:12,719
Speaker 1: work ten years on something and then you have a payday.

1787
01:50:13,880 --> 01:50:16,800
Speaker 1: But between the two things, we've managed to have a

1788
01:50:16,960 --> 01:50:24,720
Speaker 1: very nice life and not overly extravagant but also comfortable,

1789
01:50:24,840 --> 01:50:28,840
Speaker 1: So no complaints. And do you know about my snake

1790
01:50:28,920 --> 01:50:32,360
Speaker 1: bite company? Do I know about what my company that

1791
01:50:32,479 --> 01:50:37,200
Speaker 1: has a antidote for snake bites? No, So I founded

1792
01:50:37,240 --> 01:50:39,280
Speaker 1: a company about ten years ago which is going to

1793
01:50:39,439 --> 01:50:45,519
Speaker 1: revolutionize the world. Um, mosquitoes killed the most people. Humans

1794
01:50:45,600 --> 01:50:49,240
Speaker 1: kill the next most people, and snakes are third. Snakes

1795
01:50:49,320 --> 01:50:52,800
Speaker 1: kill a thousand people a year, a may more than

1796
01:50:52,880 --> 01:50:56,200
Speaker 1: half a million people a year. Anti Venom is a

1797
01:50:56,360 --> 01:51:01,800
Speaker 1: very incomplete and sometimes dangerous therapy, causing anapylactic shock and

1798
01:51:01,880 --> 01:51:06,360
Speaker 1: other issues. And we have developed a antidote for a

1799
01:51:06,439 --> 01:51:09,640
Speaker 1: particular toxin that is found in almost every snake, but

1800
01:51:09,760 --> 01:51:12,519
Speaker 1: one that's very noxious and that also has an effect

1801
01:51:13,160 --> 01:51:17,599
Speaker 1: on your general immune UH response to the snake bite.

1802
01:51:18,280 --> 01:51:21,760
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's the immune response that kills you, not the

1803
01:51:21,880 --> 01:51:25,559
Speaker 1: bite itself. This would be akin to you die from shock,

1804
01:51:25,920 --> 01:51:29,479
Speaker 1: not the car accident. So we have an oral and

1805
01:51:29,600 --> 01:51:32,719
Speaker 1: an ivy formulation. We are in clinical trials in India

1806
01:51:32,760 --> 01:51:37,439
Speaker 1: and the United States just finishing them up and hopefully

1807
01:51:37,520 --> 01:51:39,160
Speaker 1: it will be on the market. And know if you

1808
01:51:39,439 --> 01:51:42,320
Speaker 1: will get FDA approval and we'll be on the market.

1809
01:51:42,680 --> 01:51:45,920
Speaker 1: You involved with garage band. How do you get involved with,

1810
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:51,160
Speaker 1: you know, a venoms anti venom situation. Well, I had

1811
01:51:51,200 --> 01:51:55,080
Speaker 1: met these neuroscientists and I had this lovely party in

1812
01:51:55,280 --> 01:51:57,320
Speaker 1: June and there are all these smart people in my

1813
01:51:58,560 --> 01:52:03,599
Speaker 1: my kitchen, and I said, does anyone have a great

1814
01:52:03,640 --> 01:52:06,720
Speaker 1: idea that they haven't done anything with here? And this

1815
01:52:07,120 --> 01:52:09,000
Speaker 1: person I never met, who was a friend of this

1816
01:52:09,160 --> 01:52:12,600
Speaker 1: neuroscientist doctor, and he goes, I do it was a

1817
01:52:12,680 --> 01:52:16,000
Speaker 1: totally different idea about snake bites. In fact, he even

1818
01:52:16,080 --> 01:52:18,000
Speaker 1: tested on himself that there was a whole thing we

1819
01:52:18,120 --> 01:52:21,080
Speaker 1: I had filmed at a hospital where he became paralyzed

1820
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:23,840
Speaker 1: and then there was a different treatment. It was only

1821
01:52:23,920 --> 01:52:26,280
Speaker 1: for neurotoxic snink bites at that time, but now we

1822
01:52:26,400 --> 01:52:29,600
Speaker 1: came up with something better. We just did a b

1823
01:52:29,840 --> 01:52:32,400
Speaker 1: round where we raised a bunch of money. We've got

1824
01:52:32,479 --> 01:52:34,320
Speaker 1: a lot of money from the US government because the

1825
01:52:34,439 --> 01:52:36,680
Speaker 1: military is really interested in it. It's been a ten

1826
01:52:36,760 --> 01:52:40,680
Speaker 1: year path, ten your path where the general scientists in

1827
01:52:40,760 --> 01:52:45,040
Speaker 1: the in the snake bite community said it will never work.

1828
01:52:45,120 --> 01:52:47,599
Speaker 1: You guys are crazy. Do they all embrace it now?

1829
01:52:47,960 --> 01:52:55,080
Speaker 1: It's been remarkable. So how did you end up producing records? Well,

1830
01:52:55,160 --> 01:52:57,880
Speaker 1: as I said, Nona. Hendricks asked me. First, we shared

1831
01:52:57,920 --> 01:53:03,439
Speaker 1: a hairdresser addresser suggesting me and I had become friends

1832
01:53:03,479 --> 01:53:06,439
Speaker 1: with with Busta Jones, which is how I met Bernie Warrell.

1833
01:53:07,479 --> 01:53:09,120
Speaker 1: And he and I were like going out in New

1834
01:53:09,200 --> 01:53:13,880
Speaker 1: York and abusing ourselves, will say, and trying to meet

1835
01:53:14,280 --> 01:53:19,519
Speaker 1: meet Curls. And he had made a solo record, and

1836
01:53:19,560 --> 01:53:21,519
Speaker 1: I helped him with that, and then he helped me

1837
01:53:22,040 --> 01:53:24,920
Speaker 1: with the production of Nona. And then it was like

1838
01:53:25,040 --> 01:53:26,720
Speaker 1: I had been watching, you know, and I had been

1839
01:53:26,760 --> 01:53:29,240
Speaker 1: watching Tony bon Jovi, and I was like, I could

1840
01:53:29,320 --> 01:53:34,000
Speaker 1: do this. So I still started doing it a little more.

1841
01:53:34,080 --> 01:53:36,200
Speaker 1: And then when I got out to the studio, so

1842
01:53:36,360 --> 01:53:38,000
Speaker 1: the next thing I was really doing was my own

1843
01:53:38,080 --> 01:53:41,000
Speaker 1: solo record, which Alex Weir helped me on in the

1844
01:53:41,080 --> 01:53:45,559
Speaker 1: beginning quite a lot. And you know, I was teaching

1845
01:53:45,640 --> 01:53:48,160
Speaker 1: the engineer the things to do, and I was the producer,

1846
01:53:48,240 --> 01:53:50,360
Speaker 1: and so I just spent so much time in the studio.

1847
01:53:51,520 --> 01:53:53,479
Speaker 1: But I just became more and more comfortable, so that

1848
01:53:53,560 --> 01:53:55,720
Speaker 1: when I started doing the violent themes right and it's

1849
01:53:55,720 --> 01:53:58,960
Speaker 1: a material or the Bodine's, I had the compidence to

1850
01:53:59,000 --> 01:54:00,599
Speaker 1: go like, no, we're not to do it that way,

1851
01:54:00,640 --> 01:54:03,880
Speaker 1: we're doing it this way. And I also, you know,

1852
01:54:04,400 --> 01:54:06,080
Speaker 1: I have a scientific mind, so I was like I

1853
01:54:06,200 --> 01:54:09,120
Speaker 1: understo it, like how you patch it in the wiring.

1854
01:54:09,200 --> 01:54:11,560
Speaker 1: And I knew things about microphones and the patterns and

1855
01:54:11,640 --> 01:54:14,439
Speaker 1: the e q s and the compressors. I'm not an

1856
01:54:14,479 --> 01:54:18,599
Speaker 1: engineer because I never spent the time developing those skills,

1857
01:54:18,720 --> 01:54:21,560
Speaker 1: but I can talk through it and I understand it.

1858
01:54:22,160 --> 01:54:25,160
Speaker 1: And I also learned have really good engineers, So I

1859
01:54:25,240 --> 01:54:30,080
Speaker 1: always found really good people. And did your phone just

1860
01:54:30,160 --> 01:54:32,680
Speaker 1: start ringing or do you have a manager or somebody

1861
01:54:32,720 --> 01:54:34,720
Speaker 1: putting out the word or whatever you ran into somebody

1862
01:54:34,760 --> 01:54:37,280
Speaker 1: say hey, I could do your record well. After I did,

1863
01:54:38,120 --> 01:54:42,040
Speaker 1: uh crash the Stummies and Throwing Copper, which at the

1864
01:54:42,160 --> 01:54:44,200
Speaker 1: end of now the two biggest records I ever. I mean,

1865
01:54:44,560 --> 01:54:47,040
Speaker 1: Throwing Coppers sold more records than all the talking As

1866
01:54:47,120 --> 01:54:52,800
Speaker 1: records combined, right the live record. After that I wrecked,

1867
01:54:52,880 --> 01:54:56,400
Speaker 1: my phone wouldn't stop ringing. But I did have a manager,

1868
01:54:56,480 --> 01:54:58,320
Speaker 1: but there was more. She was more of a gatekeeper

1869
01:54:58,440 --> 01:55:02,440
Speaker 1: than it. Now what Actually, my my production career took

1870
01:55:02,480 --> 01:55:05,920
Speaker 1: a hit by starting garage band dot com because you know,

1871
01:55:05,920 --> 01:55:08,120
Speaker 1: I produced a few records for garage band that never

1872
01:55:08,240 --> 01:55:13,160
Speaker 1: came out actually quite wonderful, and it stopped me from

1873
01:55:14,280 --> 01:55:16,920
Speaker 1: You're all as good as your last hit. The good

1874
01:55:16,960 --> 01:55:19,680
Speaker 1: thing about being a producer is that you do three

1875
01:55:19,800 --> 01:55:22,520
Speaker 1: or four records a year, so you're rolling the dice

1876
01:55:22,640 --> 01:55:25,920
Speaker 1: four times because there's so many ways that a band

1877
01:55:26,360 --> 01:55:29,040
Speaker 1: or a record can fail. I mean, I've started this

1878
01:55:29,120 --> 01:55:33,240
Speaker 1: conversation by let's say mistakes that the record company makes.

1879
01:55:33,360 --> 01:55:37,160
Speaker 1: But it's mistake you know, I produced a band and sudding.

1880
01:55:37,200 --> 01:55:39,080
Speaker 1: They don't get along with each other. That happened, the

1881
01:55:39,120 --> 01:55:44,120
Speaker 1: violent fans, they broke up, they become they get into drugs,

1882
01:55:44,360 --> 01:55:46,880
Speaker 1: billy goat and it stops working. And so there's a

1883
01:55:46,960 --> 01:55:50,760
Speaker 1: lot of ways that things can fail. So rolling the

1884
01:55:50,840 --> 01:55:53,480
Speaker 1: dice more than once is really helpful. I had also

1885
01:55:53,600 --> 01:55:56,760
Speaker 1: done an analysis of who made money in the music business,

1886
01:55:57,840 --> 01:56:00,840
Speaker 1: and boy playing in a band was way down on

1887
01:56:00,960 --> 01:56:07,800
Speaker 1: the list. Top is songwriters and owning publishing, second is

1888
01:56:07,960 --> 01:56:15,160
Speaker 1: managers and and producers because they don't have cross collateralization

1889
01:56:15,440 --> 01:56:18,320
Speaker 1: with their records. You can do five dogs and do

1890
01:56:18,440 --> 01:56:20,200
Speaker 1: one hit record, and you can pay it on the hit.

1891
01:56:21,000 --> 01:56:23,360
Speaker 1: If you own a record label, you've got to admortize

1892
01:56:23,360 --> 01:56:25,520
Speaker 1: all of them across each other. If you're a band,

1893
01:56:25,720 --> 01:56:28,080
Speaker 1: you have to balance out your losses with your gains.

1894
01:56:28,520 --> 01:56:32,120
Speaker 1: But as a producer, as a manager and a manager

1895
01:56:32,240 --> 01:56:35,040
Speaker 1: gonna have multiple acts on the road at the same time,

1896
01:56:35,400 --> 01:56:38,120
Speaker 1: and he gets paid on growth. That's a really good gick.

1897
01:56:38,600 --> 01:56:40,440
Speaker 1: So I did this angle, like well, of those gigs,

1898
01:56:40,480 --> 01:56:43,120
Speaker 1: I can be a producer. I'm a songwriter, but I'm

1899
01:56:43,120 --> 01:56:50,160
Speaker 1: a slow songwriter and um and I wish I'd done

1900
01:56:50,200 --> 01:56:52,280
Speaker 1: that more. But I got so successful as a producer

1901
01:56:52,320 --> 01:56:55,040
Speaker 1: it just started to take up all my time. You know,

1902
01:56:55,080 --> 01:56:58,600
Speaker 1: I worked constantly, but I got to do a lot

1903
01:56:58,680 --> 01:57:01,760
Speaker 1: of great records. And then nineties was a fantastic time

1904
01:57:01,800 --> 01:57:05,840
Speaker 1: to be making records. You know, the CD sales were

1905
01:57:06,320 --> 01:57:09,040
Speaker 1: really good, so you could make good money at it.

1906
01:57:09,080 --> 01:57:11,120
Speaker 1: And I got to make a lot of records that

1907
01:57:11,160 --> 01:57:13,000
Speaker 1: I'm very proud of. I go back and listen to

1908
01:57:14,000 --> 01:57:16,080
Speaker 1: you know, I might have a fifty records I made,

1909
01:57:16,200 --> 01:57:22,520
Speaker 1: so it's pretty great. So you talked about looking for girls.

1910
01:57:23,360 --> 01:57:27,840
Speaker 1: To what degree did you partake in the rock and

1911
01:57:28,040 --> 01:57:32,560
Speaker 1: roll lifestyle, drugs, women, etcetera. Well, I was a lot more,

1912
01:57:32,960 --> 01:57:35,200
Speaker 1: a lot more cautious about it. When we were a

1913
01:57:35,280 --> 01:57:39,600
Speaker 1: four piece but when the big band got together, there

1914
01:57:39,760 --> 01:57:42,320
Speaker 1: was there were so many of us to go out.

1915
01:57:42,680 --> 01:57:44,400
Speaker 1: I got a little more, I got a little wilder.

1916
01:57:46,360 --> 01:57:49,960
Speaker 1: And what is your relationship with the other three members

1917
01:57:50,000 --> 01:57:54,600
Speaker 1: of Talking Heads? Now, I think I'm on good relationships

1918
01:57:54,640 --> 01:57:58,560
Speaker 1: with everybody. I don't think that I'm I mean, David

1919
01:57:58,640 --> 01:58:02,240
Speaker 1: and I are like on a relationship that like if

1920
01:58:02,240 --> 01:58:04,440
Speaker 1: I when I'm passing through New York, I give him

1921
01:58:04,480 --> 01:58:08,560
Speaker 1: a call. Um, It's much more likely that I give

1922
01:58:08,680 --> 01:58:10,520
Speaker 1: him a call than he gives me a call. But well,

1923
01:58:10,800 --> 01:58:14,160
Speaker 1: you know, we regularly have dinner, you know, wheel or

1924
01:58:14,320 --> 01:58:17,320
Speaker 1: lunch or something like that. You know, I went and

1925
01:58:17,360 --> 01:58:19,800
Speaker 1: saw American Utopia on Broadway, and I also saw it

1926
01:58:19,880 --> 01:58:21,960
Speaker 1: when it was a road show, when it came through

1927
01:58:21,960 --> 01:58:26,320
Speaker 1: San Francisco, much tighter when he was able to be

1928
01:58:26,360 --> 01:58:30,200
Speaker 1: in the same theater. You know, it really improved a lot. Um.

1929
01:58:31,720 --> 01:58:34,640
Speaker 1: You know, I have a very frank relationship with David.

1930
01:58:34,680 --> 01:58:36,320
Speaker 1: I mean when he was decided that he was going

1931
01:58:36,360 --> 01:58:38,920
Speaker 1: to go out on his own and basically the band

1932
01:58:39,080 --> 01:58:42,000
Speaker 1: was going to end, and I said to my I said,

1933
01:58:42,040 --> 01:58:43,960
Speaker 1: I think David, I think you're making a mistake. I

1934
01:58:44,080 --> 01:58:47,040
Speaker 1: think you get all the credit for the success of

1935
01:58:47,080 --> 01:58:50,680
Speaker 1: the Talking Heads, so you have no pressure on your

1936
01:58:50,760 --> 01:58:53,560
Speaker 1: solo records as long as you get a good review.

1937
01:58:53,760 --> 01:58:57,240
Speaker 1: Mo Austen goes, God, my genius, just does it again,

1938
01:58:58,440 --> 01:59:00,360
Speaker 1: I do a solo record. They want me to do

1939
01:59:01,840 --> 01:59:04,680
Speaker 1: all this press that maybe in Togy Heads we would

1940
01:59:04,760 --> 01:59:06,920
Speaker 1: turn down and want me to be on a TV

1941
01:59:07,040 --> 01:59:10,640
Speaker 1: show that maybe I found embarrassing. But I'm I'm judged

1942
01:59:10,760 --> 01:59:14,440
Speaker 1: on the financial success of my record. You have the

1943
01:59:14,520 --> 01:59:19,080
Speaker 1: glorious advantage that you don't have to have that. You know,

1944
01:59:19,240 --> 01:59:22,640
Speaker 1: we could keep the band together for working six months

1945
01:59:22,680 --> 01:59:26,200
Speaker 1: every two years. It seems like a perfect world. He guys, well,

1946
01:59:26,320 --> 01:59:30,480
Speaker 1: maybe I gotta learn that. So that's what happened. Now

1947
01:59:30,720 --> 01:59:33,839
Speaker 1: he has not had anywhere near the level of commercial

1948
01:59:34,000 --> 01:59:37,640
Speaker 1: success with new music since the end of the talk.

1949
01:59:37,720 --> 01:59:42,680
Speaker 1: He gets, No, there's a lot of artist success, but

1950
01:59:42,800 --> 01:59:45,960
Speaker 1: I certainly know not commercial systems. Not not the commercial

1951
01:59:46,040 --> 01:59:48,320
Speaker 1: success that either Chris a tied To did with the

1952
01:59:48,400 --> 01:59:50,880
Speaker 1: Tom Time Club or certainly I did with my production career.

1953
01:59:52,960 --> 01:59:56,840
Speaker 1: So in the time you have left anywhere from a

1954
01:59:57,040 --> 02:00:01,320
Speaker 1: second to thirty years, what's that look, Well, I gotta

1955
02:00:01,360 --> 02:00:03,840
Speaker 1: finish this tour that's coming up. That's the first thing

1956
02:00:04,600 --> 02:00:08,440
Speaker 1: and I want to see, uh opheis that's the name

1957
02:00:08,480 --> 02:00:14,840
Speaker 1: of the snake Bite company become a uh a household name.

1958
02:00:15,560 --> 02:00:19,440
Speaker 1: Uh It has other possible treatments that actually could be

1959
02:00:19,600 --> 02:00:22,640
Speaker 1: a treatment for acute respiratory distress syndrome, which is what

1960
02:00:22,720 --> 02:00:25,560
Speaker 1: everybody ties from eights from or in the beginning did

1961
02:00:26,120 --> 02:00:29,560
Speaker 1: We did a small clinical trial about that. I had

1962
02:00:29,560 --> 02:00:31,920
Speaker 1: another company that I started called red Crow, that I

1963
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:36,600
Speaker 1: sold to a Lira Health earlier this year. But I've

1964
02:00:37,400 --> 02:00:39,520
Speaker 1: at this point I'm sort of concentrating on going back

1965
02:00:39,560 --> 02:00:42,480
Speaker 1: to music and not getting a little further away from

1966
02:00:42,640 --> 02:00:45,720
Speaker 1: investing your tech. I was also on the board of

1967
02:00:45,760 --> 02:00:51,640
Speaker 1: directors of a very cunning edge microprocessor company called micro Unity.

1968
02:00:52,560 --> 02:00:55,840
Speaker 1: We were involved in a gigantic lawsuits with Intel and

1969
02:00:56,000 --> 02:01:01,520
Speaker 1: Dell and then all the smartphone manufacturers. We realized nearly

1970
02:01:02,400 --> 02:01:04,720
Speaker 1: since you wanted to talk about money, we realized nearly

1971
02:01:04,960 --> 02:01:09,400
Speaker 1: three quarters of a billion dollars in patent infringement. That

1972
02:01:09,520 --> 02:01:13,120
Speaker 1: was a ten year lawsuit. I learned an incredible amount

1973
02:01:13,240 --> 02:01:15,320
Speaker 1: from this legal team that I got to be on.

1974
02:01:16,280 --> 02:01:18,040
Speaker 1: I think my basic thing is I want to keep

1975
02:01:18,080 --> 02:01:21,160
Speaker 1: myself interested. I'm not I'm interested in music. I'm interested

1976
02:01:21,200 --> 02:01:24,360
Speaker 1: in producing. I'm interested in art. I'm also really interested

1977
02:01:24,400 --> 02:01:28,320
Speaker 1: in science. I was involved with the venture group called

1978
02:01:28,400 --> 02:01:31,800
Speaker 1: Van Earth that was about climate mitigation. We have these

1979
02:01:31,880 --> 02:01:35,360
Speaker 1: theories that we think that soil and something called biochar,

1980
02:01:35,560 --> 02:01:38,760
Speaker 1: which is based upon the terra prey to soils that

1981
02:01:39,600 --> 02:01:45,680
Speaker 1: the Amerindians in Brazil did pre Columbian uh was a

1982
02:01:45,880 --> 02:01:49,920
Speaker 1: sink for carbon and we think it's part of the

1983
02:01:50,000 --> 02:01:54,440
Speaker 1: solution to global warming. So we started companies and tried

1984
02:01:54,480 --> 02:01:58,400
Speaker 1: to develop I spent about four years on that. But

1985
02:01:58,520 --> 02:02:01,680
Speaker 1: you know, I'm concerned about climate change and I was

1986
02:02:01,760 --> 02:02:04,320
Speaker 1: trying to help save the world that way. You know

1987
02:02:05,920 --> 02:02:08,640
Speaker 1: what's kind of nice. It's very frustrating because everything moves

1988
02:02:08,680 --> 02:02:11,840
Speaker 1: so goddamn slow. I mean, what's really great about music

1989
02:02:12,040 --> 02:02:13,640
Speaker 1: is like at least you can make a record in

1990
02:02:13,640 --> 02:02:15,160
Speaker 1: a certain period of time and it comes out, and

1991
02:02:15,160 --> 02:02:17,160
Speaker 1: you can see what happens when you make a movie

1992
02:02:17,240 --> 02:02:19,440
Speaker 1: and it comes out. You know. I did these movies

1993
02:02:19,520 --> 02:02:23,160
Speaker 1: Take Me to the River I did. Uh. There's another

1994
02:02:23,200 --> 02:02:25,000
Speaker 1: one called Take Me to the River Nola that I

1995
02:02:25,080 --> 02:02:26,920
Speaker 1: had a little bit to do with. I did a

1996
02:02:27,000 --> 02:02:29,680
Speaker 1: movie with Kenny Wayne Shephard called Ten Days Out Blues

1997
02:02:29,760 --> 02:02:32,240
Speaker 1: from the back roads, which was my idea for a

1998
02:02:32,360 --> 02:02:35,840
Speaker 1: double trouble and Kenny Wayne. We traveled around playing with

1999
02:02:36,520 --> 02:02:41,760
Speaker 1: unknown blues musicians and also like BB King in Indianola, Mississippi,

2000
02:02:41,800 --> 02:02:44,040
Speaker 1: which is where he's from, at a juke joint out

2001
02:02:44,040 --> 02:02:47,480
Speaker 1: in the middle of the woods. What I want to

2002
02:02:47,520 --> 02:02:50,080
Speaker 1: do is just keep myself doing interesting things and things

2003
02:02:50,160 --> 02:02:55,280
Speaker 1: that that that my mind is challenged to do, and

2004
02:02:55,400 --> 02:02:58,960
Speaker 1: so doing the same thing forever it starts to get boring.

2005
02:02:59,520 --> 02:03:02,440
Speaker 1: That was a thing that music. As much as I

2006
02:03:02,520 --> 02:03:07,160
Speaker 1: love it, I think music has gone from being the

2007
02:03:07,400 --> 02:03:11,360
Speaker 1: centerpiece of philosophical engagement for our world, which it was

2008
02:03:11,440 --> 02:03:14,240
Speaker 1: in the late sixties and early seventies, to be the

2009
02:03:14,360 --> 02:03:18,280
Speaker 1: backgrounds of everybody's life. And you know that people talk

2010
02:03:18,320 --> 02:03:21,000
Speaker 1: about their playlists and sometimes a lot of their collection

2011
02:03:21,040 --> 02:03:23,720
Speaker 1: of how many songs they have, two thirds of which

2012
02:03:23,720 --> 02:03:28,520
Speaker 1: they've never listened to. It's it's it's become commodified. Obviously

2013
02:03:29,120 --> 02:03:33,280
Speaker 1: with streaming at least it's getting better now, But quality

2014
02:03:33,640 --> 02:03:36,480
Speaker 1: got worse it didn't, You know. We were always trying

2015
02:03:36,480 --> 02:03:38,560
Speaker 1: to make things sound better. I would work with Warner

2016
02:03:38,640 --> 02:03:43,040
Speaker 1: Brothers about their the formulations on their cassettes to make

2017
02:03:43,080 --> 02:03:45,760
Speaker 1: the cassette sound better. And I go down to the

2018
02:03:45,840 --> 02:03:48,400
Speaker 1: basement Warner Brothers and sit and listened to like eight

2019
02:03:48,480 --> 02:03:51,040
Speaker 1: different formulas and to try and choose which one we

2020
02:03:51,120 --> 02:03:54,920
Speaker 1: would put our cassettes out on you Again, this was

2021
02:03:55,000 --> 02:03:56,800
Speaker 1: something might go down on the basement. The Warm brothers

2022
02:03:56,840 --> 02:03:59,000
Speaker 1: and artists never come down here. What are you doing

2023
02:03:59,040 --> 02:04:02,640
Speaker 1: down here? But it's like I enjoyed the technology. I

2024
02:04:02,760 --> 02:04:06,800
Speaker 1: enjoyed the whole process of what it takes to go

2025
02:04:06,960 --> 02:04:10,040
Speaker 1: all the way from singing the song to it being pressed,

2026
02:04:10,240 --> 02:04:14,000
Speaker 1: to it being a duplication plant, and all the places

2027
02:04:14,040 --> 02:04:15,920
Speaker 1: that could go wrong, and I wanted to know about

2028
02:04:15,960 --> 02:04:17,400
Speaker 1: it and want to know how to fix it if

2029
02:04:17,440 --> 02:04:23,040
Speaker 1: I had to. Well, you know, it's just really funny

2030
02:04:23,200 --> 02:04:28,200
Speaker 1: talking to you, because generally speaking, music is a dumb business,

2031
02:04:28,920 --> 02:04:32,440
Speaker 1: and you're anything but dumb. Not that there aren't smart

2032
02:04:32,520 --> 02:04:35,560
Speaker 1: people in it, but a lot of these conversations I'm

2033
02:04:35,600 --> 02:04:39,160
Speaker 1: sure you've had them, are very frustrating. So it's been

2034
02:04:40,080 --> 02:04:43,560
Speaker 1: very stimulating talking to you. Oh, I've enjoyed it very much,

2035
02:04:43,640 --> 02:04:46,720
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. It was great a lot to

2036
02:04:46,760 --> 02:04:49,840
Speaker 1: do it again until next time. This is Bob left

2037
02:04:49,880 --> 02:04:50,120
Speaker 1: set