WEBVTT - Mr. Jones Goes to Washington 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:11.600 Hi Brian, Hi Katie, and hello listeners. Last week the 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.800 podcast took us to Austin, Texas, and this week we're 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:17.639 in Washington, d C. We're such world travelers, Brian, we 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:20.079 are Katie. And in fact, on the plane over here, 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:22.040 I sat next to a very nice guy named Grant 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:26.360 Francis from Yes and he was about to download an 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.440 episode of our show. Seriously, seriously, and you just saw 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:31.560 him downloading it now, I just I was looking at 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:33.800 his phone. Of course. As a matter of fact, I 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:38.080 am actually the co host of that podcast. Thank you 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.800 for the impression of my nasal voice. That is sort 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:45.360 of what I said, hopefully a little less obnoxious. No no, no, no, 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:47.280 But that was so cool. It was really cool, and 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.080 he was very nice, and he said that he liked 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.199 a couple past episodes of our show. So it was 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:53.720 very nice to meet a listener. And Grant, thank you 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.800 very much for listening. I second that, Grant, thank you 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.760 for downloading our podcast, and we're glad you're enjoying it. Me. 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:04.360 We're here in Washington to interview the junior senator from 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:08.000 the state of Alabama, Senator Doug Jones. He's Alabama's first 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.880 Democratic senator in twenty five years exactly. And this all 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.679 came about because Jeff Sessions quit his Senate sy to 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:17.399 become Donald Trump's Attorney General. I wonder whether he's still 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:19.640 glad he left. By the way, anyway, there was a 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:23.280 special election to replace Sessions, and Alabama, as many of 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:26.600 our listeners know, because our listeners are very smart, is 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:31.240 a deeply read state that went overwhelmingly for President Trump 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:34.000 in two thousand sixteen. The empty seat was expected to 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:39.040 go to a Republican candidate, any Republican candidate, quite easily. 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:43.199 But but as our listeners are very smart listeners probably 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.080 remember last fall, several women gave on the record accounts 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:51.240 accusing the GOP candidate Roy Moore of making sexual advances 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:54.280 toward them when they were teenagers. And by the way, 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.160 the Washington Post just won a Politzer Prize for its 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:00.120 coverage of that story. As congratulations to my friend to 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.960 the Washington Post. So, Doug Jones defeated Roy Moore, and 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:09.080 Alabama's African American voters in particular came out in overwhelming 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.120 numbers in support of Jones, but not so much the 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:15.080 white voters in Alabama. No, he only got thirty of 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:17.960 the white vote, which was enough but barely enough to 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:20.440 win so anyway, In today's show, we'll get to know 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:24.800 Alabama's newest senator from his teenage years and newly integrated 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.240 public schools to his role in prosecuting to Ku Klux 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:32.639 Klan members responsible for an infamous nineteen sixty three Birmingham 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.840 church bombing that killed four young black girls, and full 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:40.160 disclosure Doug Jones. Senator Jones is a good friend of 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:44.480 my second cousin, Henry Frozen and his lovely wife Caroline 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:49.040 down of Birmingham, Alabama. And uh so I have a 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:53.320 little bit of a connection with him through my cousin Henry, 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:57.520 through your Gothic Southern roots. That's right. So here we 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:00.120 are in his office, and it was it was very 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.040 exciting to be able to interview Senator Jones to come 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:05.360 to the Capitol. I always get a kick out of 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.639 being here, no matter how many times I've been. And 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.280 our first question to him was a very simple one. 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:14.360 What is it like when Mr Jones comes to Washington 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:22.040 here you are, Yeah, yeah, it's it's as exciting as 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.040 it's ever been for me. What's exciting about it? Well, 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:27.160 you know, a part of It is just surreal. And 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.360 part of it the excitement is is just literally, you know, 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.560 starting my career here, I mean with Senator Heflin from Alabama, 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:38.160 who I just really looked up to his entire life 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.360 and still do look up to him for advice in 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:44.480 many ways. And to have walked off the Senate floor, 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.800 which I think is a real place of reverence as 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.880 a twenty six year old Senate staffer with him, and 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:54.280 to come back in his seat, you know too many 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:58.080 years later, but still to walk back on it is. 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:00.840 I get chills every time I walk in and to 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.080 just you know, walk off the elevator and those the 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:06.600 pages open, those double doors, and to walk onto the floor, 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:10.280 it's just remark it's just amazing. I'm just honored. I'm 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.320 humbled to be here. It's just as exciting as actutive 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.400 ever thought it might be. You're getting kind of Yeah, 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.479 it will, it will absolutely. And I noticed here in 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.120 your office, your new office, there's a picture and a 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:25.360 place of honor above the man of you and Senator 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:29.080 Heflun Yeah, he was. He was an amazing guy. The 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.040 day I was sworn in, and I wore a pair 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.560 of his cufflings. Uh. The only time I've worn him 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:38.200 I got from his son who Uh Tom, Well, I mean, 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.640 I think because well, first of all, you have to remember, 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.000 the Senate is a far different place today than it 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.839 was then. And in those days, you know, bipartisanship was 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.359 really more than a catch slogan and a campaign or 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.760 a sound bite. Uh, they really did it. And you know, 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:57.960 you had regular order in which bills went through committees 0:04:58.000 --> 0:04:59.680 and there were hearings, and you get it to the 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:03.200 Senate floor and you have the opportunities for amendments and 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.200 real debates like the Senate was designed to do. And 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.840 we just don't do that anymore. I mean there are 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.280 senators that have been here for two and four years 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.760 that really have never seen regular order. You know, that's 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:18.279 what it is. And so that's he had that ability 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.520 I think as a as a Southern Senator to really 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.720 bridge the gaps a lot, to reach across the aisle. 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.920 You know, he voted in with President Reagan a lot, 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.880 he voted with President Clinton a lot. He was just 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:34.359 a really great role model and would uh and and 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:38.160 back home in Alabama. Uh, he was loved by all 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:42.120 sorts of folks. I'll never forget in nineteen seventy eight. 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:44.960 When he first ran this was seventy eight, he had 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:48.560 done the judicial article that the quote I always remember 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:52.719 was from the director of the Alabama Civil Liberties Union 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:57.279 with that, you know, pretty liberal group in Alabama and elsewhere. 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.240 But his comment in a Time magazine article was that 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.400 Judge Heflin is the kind of public servant of which he, 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:08.200 his mother, and his grandmother can all agree. That says 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:10.880 it all to me. If you can bridge that span 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.680 of generations, you're really doing the right thing. I know 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:19.200 we could probably spend hours talking about what happened, but Senator, 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.600 you know, you're just describing what it was like here 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.599 when you were a Senate staffer, and now it seems 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:29.920 completely dysfunctional. Yes, no, I won't say it's completely dysfunctional, 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:34.320 but it's it's close. Um. The budget process is just horrible. 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:36.960 It is just something that we should not You should 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.840 not be funding the government of the United States on 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:42.640 a kick the can down the road basis, and everybody 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:47.400 trying to put must have um, you know, special things 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:49.920 in a in a budget bill and a must pass bill. 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:54.200 I think it's a long time coming. Um. I can't 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:58.279 really pinpoint one thing I think you go back to 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:03.800 the Clinton in peachment and how folks really started attacking 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:08.360 uh President Clinton, Uh and the first lady at the time. 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:13.080 I think that carried over some and folks attacked George W. Bush, 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.280 except for you know, after nine eleven and in people 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:20.680 rallied around. But since that time and with the election 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:24.840 of Barack Obama, it just seems that everything has become 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:30.080 more and more and more polarized and rancor us and 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:34.280 the votes that are done are really political messaging votes. 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:39.800 A lot even on nominees their political messaging votes. Um. 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:43.960 I will say, Katie, there's a lot more collegiality in 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:46.520 the Senate that goes on that that people don't see, 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.360 and that has been very good for me to be 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.880 able to see. You often see the dueling press conferences, 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.480 or you see you know, one senator from either party 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.680 going on the floor and railing against whatever or railing 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.440 for something. But what you don't often see as work 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.400 going on with staff and behind the scenes, UM, in 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.440 the committee level. You don't see when we take votes 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.080 over there people on both sides of the all talking 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.559 to each other, not just hidden back in the cloak rooms, 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:14.840 but they're they're talking about their kids, and they're talking 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.280 about different There's a lot more of that, but it 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:22.720 just comes to when it comes down to the schedule 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:27.280 of the Senate. The majority leader controls that, and I 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.520 think the majority leader, whether it has been Republican or Democrat, 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:33.400 has controlled that in a little bit more political way 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:37.040 than what the Senate has traditionally done in the past. 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.800 There's been a lot of discussion about members of Congress 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:43.240 not spending time together because they're so quick to go 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.439 home and you know, run for re election and the 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:51.280 fundraising needs are so But you're saying, have you been 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.319 able to spend time with people from you know, Republican 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.280 senators in a social way? Some not as much as 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.200 as as I would like. I've some for lunch, We've 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:05.760 met for breakfast. Um, most of that time has been 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.720 spent on the floor when we're over there for a vote, 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:13.080 just talking or at a committee uh level. But that's 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.120 that's right. People leave. I get out of here on 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.480 on Thursdays. I've told you I've been here three and 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.760 a half almost four months now. I don't know what Washington, 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.400 d C. It looks like anymore, because I I get 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:27.800 to the office I have a really full schedule. I'm 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.200 back and forth to the Capitol, or I'm back and 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.920 forth to the dirks in our heart building for for hearings. UH. 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.839 As soon as the order of business is done, there's 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:40.119 a reception for somebody in Alabama, or there's a fundraising 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:44.080 reception for someone else, or for me. Go back to 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.679 my little place at nine o'clock at night, read the 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:49.520 briefing books for the next day, get up and do 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.240 it all over again. So there's not as much I 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:55.200 think people do miss, you know, the weekends where folks 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:58.000 didn't feel compelled to go home. But it's the world 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:01.880 we live in today that's not as much. Congress. I 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.920 think that as much as anything is the demands of 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.920 our the people that we represent. They want to see us. 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.640 You used to run a campaign against somebody who gets 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.680 detached from the people at home. They don't go home anymore. 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:16.840 They stay in Washington, d C. And you run against 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.840 the Beltway. So people started going home, and people started 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.640 demanding they want to see their U. S. Senator, even 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.760 if they didn't vote for him or her. They want 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:27.400 to see, they want to talk, they want to be 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.400 able to reach out at least that's my philosophy. So 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:34.040 we're we're getting back home a lot, uh and starting 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:37.559 to try to move around. When you talked about rising partisanship, 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.360 you mentioned the opposition to President Obama, and we're gonna 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:44.400 talk more about race later. But how much of um, 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.760 the intense opposition to him do you think was driven 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:51.120 by the fact that he was the first African American president. Well, personally, 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:52.680 I think it was. I think there was a good 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:56.240 bit um, but that kind of bubbled up from the ground. 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.280 I don't I don't. I don't abscribe that to any 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.760 of the in the Senate. I really don't believe that. 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:04.800 I think it was just a political thing and that 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.960 folks saw an opportunity because there was such opposition there 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.120 were You couldn't find anybody in Alabama that would ever 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.600 say that they were opposed to President Obama because of 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.760 his race. But you always knew that that was an 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.600 underlying part of a good bit of the opposition. There's 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:26.160 no question, ever admit that nobody's ever gonna mean, not 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.120 many people. But when Donald Trump raised the issue of 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.280 his birth certificate, do you think he was playing the 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:35.560 race card? Yes, absolutely, I think he I think I 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:37.080 think it was playing a race card. But I also 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.240 think he was playing a Trump card, for lack of 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.000 a better term. I mean, I quite frankly think that 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:44.800 that was as much as anything, because he knew that 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.520 there was a base out there that that believed that 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:50.040 there were a lot of people that really believed that 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:52.960 and thought that and it was so bogus. But Trump 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:56.520 saws an opportunity to play that card to build his 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.880 uh stature some And then you know, it was only 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.720 after it got completely debunked and he saw it was 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:07.199 gonna be a negative for him that he very timidly said, 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:10.440 oh yeah, well maybe I was not right. I don't 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.559 even think he said that seat of Donald Trump. He's 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.120 been president for a little over a year. Now, how 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.160 do you think he's doing so far? But before you 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:20.840 tell us that, have you met him? Yeah? I have. 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.400 He called me the day after the election, was very nice, um, 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:26.839 you know, congratulating me on the win, said he was 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:28.760 looking forward to having me to the White House and 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:31.440 to work together. There was no you know, there was 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.640 nothing you which begs a very nice call. Uh. It 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:37.560 took about a month I think when we the first 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.679 government shut down. I mean, think of this how many, 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:42.920 how many how many senators get sworn in and then 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:44.960 they have a chance to shut the government down after 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.960 a month. I mean, that's just was crazy. Um. And 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.440 when we voted back up, he called over here and 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.959 asked that I and Senator Mansion go to the White House, 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.040 and so we went over there that afternoon, and again 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.200 it was just a pleasant conversation. Um. You know, General 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:03.040 Kelly was there, there were a couple of other folks 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:05.760 in the room, and there was not any kind of 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.240 hard bargains. You know, DACA and immigration was the biggest 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.600 issue driving things at that point, but there was none 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:14.120 of that. There was a little bit of talk of that. 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.240 There was some talk about infrastructure. I told him about 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:21.480 some specific infrastructure issues with sewers and things like that 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:23.920 in Alabama that I thought he should know about. So 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:25.720 it's just a little pleasant call. That was the only 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.160 that's been the only time I've seen the legislative folks 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.360 a couple times. And you you actually were there. Wasn't 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.319 just a call, no, no, no, we went over there. 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.560 We were we sat in the Oval office, and you know, 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.440 we were there, and he just he wanted to the 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.760 southern kind of call. Yeah, that's what I mean. We 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.880 called on him. He called on up and and and 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:47.600 so we but we were there. They were literally holding 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.480 a vote for me and Joe because the President just 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:52.520 kind of wanted to talk a little bit. And I 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:55.280 think he enjoyed the talk, and we we kicked around 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:57.280 a few things. We were there about forty five minutes, 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.760 I guess, and and literally had to just like zoom back, 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:04.240 and he was pleasant to us. It was it was 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.120 a nice conversation. I had no no complaints about that 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.480 conversation at all. President Trump has been in office a 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:12.480 little over a year. How do you think he's doing 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:14.920 so far? Well. I think it's a mixed bag. I mean, 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:17.960 I think the President is doing some a lot of 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:20.280 what he said he was going to do, and and 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:22.960 in that respect, respect, you've got to, you know, give 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.680 him some high marks, even though I don't like a 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:27.400 lot of the things he's doing. I don't like a 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:30.600 lot of the rollbacks he's doing by executive orders and 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.920 those kind of things. I don't like the fact that 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.360 e p. A Is being dismantled right before our eyes. 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:39.200 I don't like the fact that he has done some 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.480 things on foreign policy that I think has has diminished 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:46.480 the United States of America standing in the world. Well, 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:48.560 I think you know that all of the tariffs, I 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.080 think all of the just things he's done in Europe 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.920 to just basically pull away from, you know, being the 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.760 world leader and the moral leader of the world that 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.840 we've always been, I think that that is pulling back. 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.880 On the other hand, he showed some toughness in Syria. 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:09.480 Uh he is. I didn't particularly like the name calling 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.960 with North Korea, and that scared me to death. But 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.480 there's you know, he's at least I think they're planning 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:17.760 some things and people are a little bit more hopeful 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:22.040 now about some resolution with North Korea about that. Yeah, 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:26.280 he brought Kim john n ostensibly or apparently to the table, 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:28.840 and I think people have mixed feelings about it. You 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:31.000 think it's a good thing, Well, I think, Look, any 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:33.240 time that you can deflate the tensions that we had 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:35.400 there about four or five months ago, I think that's 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.600 a good thing. Now. I think people got very concerned, 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:40.840 as did I. And this was before I was elected. 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.840 When you started seeing Twitter wars, which was just silly 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:49.320 junior high school name calling rocket man, you know, just 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.360 all sorts of things beneath the dignity of the President 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:54.720 of the United States. On the other hand, I also 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.280 know enough about the United States government to know there 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:00.080 was a lot going on behind the scenes. And so 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:04.600 I think between what the administration has done, uh and 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.000 what the world has kind of done as well, because 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:11.400 we're not the only ones putting pressure on North Korea. 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:16.080 Their their economy isn't the shambles. They're incredibly poor. Um, 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:18.640 they need the world. They need the world a lot 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.360 more than the world needs them. And so I think 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.200 there was a combination of things that is, at least 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:29.080 for the time being, kind of ratcheted down the threat level. 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.360 That's not to say that their North Korea is not 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.320 still a threat, because they certainly are. And I don't 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:39.200 take the recent events of pulling back and suspending their 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:43.440 nuclear testing as anything more than what is normally done 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.920 in anticipation of more talks. I mean, that's fairly standard 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.920 for even a road nation like like North Korea. Right now, 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:53.920 we'll see how that goes. And we've now started trade 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:56.400 wars with China when we really need China to help 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.920 us with North Korea. It's a real complicated thing, which 0:16:59.920 --> 0:17:02.120 I gotta tell you, Katie, is is all of those 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.359 answers you gotta figure a year ago. I'm just a 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.479 lawyer in Birmingham alumn Okay, So so keep all this 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.680 in mind when I'm I'm waxing eloquent. I'm still learning 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:16.040 a lot. But the criticism has been that you shouldn't 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:22.480 reward Kim jongun with a presidential meeting without having demonstrated 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:26.520 real meeting progress. I don't disagree with that at all. 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:28.760 And we're not there yet. We that meeting is not 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.040 taking place. I think what's come out of the administration 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:34.480 is he would like to I don't have a problem 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:38.479 with that, but we'll see. Because I am of the 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.520 camp that certainly, uh, there needs to be something more 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.920 than oh, we're going to suspend right now before the 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.040 leader of the free world meets with someone like, uh, 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:51.760 the North Korean leader. Sounds like you're willing to give 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:55.760 President Trump some some prompts on a few things. Sure, 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:57.960 I mean, he's you know, look, he's the thing. He's 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.480 being treated unfairly in the media. I'm not sure I'll 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:04.119 go that far, because I think he treats the media 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:07.960 a lot more unfairly than the media treat him. UM. 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:11.600 I don't buy into the fake news argument or anything 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:15.879 like that. Um. I've got my own criticism some of 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.360 the media where I think the media focuses on issues 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:24.560 that sell newspapers and podcast and you know, and and 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:31.439 thist not this one, of course not um. But you know, 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.720 so there there's a combination of things. Um. Has he 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.320 been treated unfairly in certain circumstances, Yes, But at the 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:41.320 same time, you know, there's some things he he has 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:45.439 said and done that I think is fair game. A 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:47.080 lot of what he's done is fair game. So I 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.280 don't think overall, I don't think he's been treated unfairly 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:52.360 at all. On the other hand, you know, I mean, 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.320 when did we think that we were going to use 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:59.240 the term the president in the same sentence as a 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:03.240 porn star? I mean what what? Yeah, no, no, I 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.959 I get it. It's it will almost daily make your 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:10.600 head explode. I mean that and all the other allegations 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.840 that that have come up, and the collusion and and 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.560 whether a lawyer is going to flip or not flip 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:20.160 flip on what I mean. It's there is a cavalcative 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.960 things that are are disturbing. I think for people to 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:25.560 look at and there's a lot I know of a 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.879 lot of investigations, and so in that context, I don't 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.560 think that there's an unfairness at all with that. My 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:36.800 concern is that the president is able to use his 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:40.959 social media platform to basically say, just don't look at 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:42.840 any of that. It's all fake. Well it's it's not 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.879 all fake. I mean, there are facts out there, and 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:47.439 sooner or later, there's a lot of facts that are 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:49.680 gonna come out. We just don't know where they're gonna land. 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.399 You've been a practicing lawyer your whole life and a 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:56.359 former U S attorney, were also a defense attorney, So 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.280 I was curious to ask you about how you've felt 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.760 when you see what's going on with the president's lawyer, 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:08.159 Michael Cohen, and what kinds of things, Senator, would you 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:14.800 be looking for if you were in charge of this investigation. Wow, Okay, 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:18.960 that's a that's a that's a pretty loaded question. Um. 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:21.440 First of all, let me let me let's let's back 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:24.800 up just a little bit, because having a search warrant 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:29.119 executed on the office and the home of a lawyer 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:31.680 and the hotel room and the hotel is it there's 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.000 a number of steps that you have to go through, 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.840 and you know you have to. So let's go back, 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.240 and you know, the Special Counsel presented some evidence to 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:44.959 the Justice Department that, however they got it, they believe 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.960 showed that there was some potential criminal activity. Remember, it's 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:52.359 just a probable call standard, it's not proof beyond a 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:55.360 reasonable doubt or anything like that. And so the Special 0:20:55.400 --> 0:21:00.280 Counsel presented that to Rod Rosenstein, the Deputy Attorney General 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:04.240 who's in charge of that. That was appropriate for them 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.880 to do. In any major investigation. When you're subpoenaing as 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.160 many witnesses and as many documents, the odds are you're 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:16.439 going to find something outside of your lane that you 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:20.679 see as a potential problem. It happens in every major investigation. 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.840 And the Special Council stand up situation though his lane 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:29.000 is is such that unless it's really related, he shouldn't 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:30.760 be doing it. So he presented it to the Dag 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.520 and Rosenstein says, this is not in your lane. I'm 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:36.600 gonna I'm gonna move it to where it needs to be. 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:40.760 So that's step number one. Everybody did their exact right thing. 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:45.720 They did exactly what the law requires. Rosenstein then assigns it, 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:48.520 they look at it, and I can to the U. 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.119 S Attorney for the Southern District, who I understood me 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:55.200 have recused himself. But let now they're there are prosecutors 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.119 on the ground, just like in my office in Birmingham 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:00.959 where that are looking at this and are evaluating this 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:04.400