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Speaker 1: Season three is officially over, but we will have some

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Speaker 1: bonus episodes for you coming up soon, including a series

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Speaker 1: that we're co reporting with huff Post about how the

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Speaker 1: fossil fuel industry has infiltrated the public school system, and

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Speaker 1: before that, some episodes on the financial situation that the

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Speaker 1: oil and gas industry has been in and why you

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Speaker 1: should not believe the hype that they need a coronavirus bailout.

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Speaker 1: In the meantime, I will occasionally be dropping episodes in

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Speaker 1: this feed of other climate related shows that you might like.

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Speaker 1: First up today is the latest episode of Hot Take

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Speaker 1: with myself and Mary Annise Hegler. We had David Wallace

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Speaker 1: Wells on as our guest co host to talk about

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Speaker 1: looking at climate through Corona color glasses. David Wallace Walls is,

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Speaker 1: of course, the deputy editor of New York Magazine and

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Speaker 1: the author of The Uninhabitable Earth. We recorded this conversation

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Speaker 1: last week and I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Hot Take, the podcast where we talk about storytelling in

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Speaker 1: the face of the greatest story of all time, climate change.

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Speaker 1: I'm Amy Westerbelt.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Mary Annie's Teglaring, and I'm so glad to

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Speaker 2: be back with you in earnest.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad to be back together for this show.

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Speaker 1: I'm yeah, I uh, you know, I've floundered. I floundered

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Speaker 1: without you, I did, and I'm lounder without you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And this episode we're gonna be joined by David Wallace Wells,

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Speaker 2: who is the deputy editor in New York Magazine and

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Speaker 2: the author of The Uninhabitable Earth, both the article and

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Speaker 2: the book. And we're really glad to have him here

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Speaker 2: with us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was great to talk to him. I feel

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Speaker 1: like he was the perfect person to have on amidst

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Speaker 1: all the coronavirus stuff too. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: So we didn't actually, even though we're in the same city,

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Speaker 2: David and I, we didn't get to like do this

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Speaker 2: in the studio together.

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Speaker 1: We had to do.

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Speaker 2: It by a social distance.

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Speaker 1: Fortunately.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I need this shit to ince so fast.

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Speaker 1: I really, really, really amuse I know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but can I make a confession. I always, uh,

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Speaker 2: whenever I see David's initials, I always want to call

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Speaker 2: him darkween duck because his initial like d w W

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Speaker 2: and like, if you grew up in the nineties at all,

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Speaker 2: you remember the cartoon darkwing duck.

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Speaker 1: Yes, do.

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Speaker 3: Let's be dangerous.

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Speaker 2: Dark Queen Duck.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, it was great to talk to him. I

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Speaker 1: I really I thought he had some interesting things to

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Speaker 1: say about, of course all of the sort of Corona

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Speaker 1: climate intersections, but then also just about what's been happening

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Speaker 1: with the climate story in general, and what's happening in

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Speaker 1: the political realm this year on climate too, and actually,

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Speaker 1: you know what, Yeah, he made me feel a lot

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Speaker 1: better talk about the shift in like attention and urgency

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Speaker 1: around climate in the last couple of years, which it's

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Speaker 1: easy for me to forget sometimes I feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: just constantly like wanting it to be more. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it was good to like, you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: remember that. Oh actually, yeah, we've come a long way

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Speaker 1: in a pretty short amount of time, and like, you know,

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Speaker 1: even if we're taking some losses, like it doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: it's done for good and whatever. So yeah, exactly, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And also note that all the articles that we

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Speaker 2: talk about here are going to be linked as always

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Speaker 2: on our Twitter feed, which you can find it at

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Speaker 2: real hot Take, and they'll also be posted in our

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Speaker 2: show notes. Yeah, so make sure you read along yes,

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Speaker 2: make sure you're following us on Twitter, because in addition

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Speaker 2: to posting these reading lists, we I think do a

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Speaker 2: relatively great job of curating all of the climate writing

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Speaker 2: that's happened all the time.

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Speaker 1: So it's a good Yeah, we get all of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we get all.

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Speaker 2: The best the best stuff, right, all right, so ready

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Speaker 2: to dig in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it. What drew you to storytelling in general,

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Speaker 1: but really climate storytelling in particular, Well.

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Speaker 3: I think that brought me to climate change is a

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Speaker 3: subject was just honestly, it was fear. So I think

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Speaker 3: it's a lot of what a lot of people not

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Speaker 3: just who are telling these stories, but who are reading

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Speaker 3: them and listening to them. I've been going through, which

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Speaker 3: is a couple of years ago, I started seeing a

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Speaker 3: lot more news that was really terrifying about the future

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Speaker 3: of the climate, and I was piecing it together for

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Speaker 3: myself in a way that made it seem not just

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Speaker 3: like a series of sort of particular, discrete threats, but

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Speaker 3: a much more all encompassing and sort of all changing

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Speaker 3: force that is likely to dominate all of the rest

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Speaker 3: of our lives. And that was just sort of, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, destabilizing in the sense of like making me

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Speaker 3: a little leak at the knees, so to speak. And

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Speaker 3: it didn't feel to me at the time. I no

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Speaker 3: longer feel this way. You guys have done a great

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Speaker 3: job talking about it in a show in particular, But

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Speaker 3: it didn't feel to me at the time like there

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Speaker 3: were that many writers or storytellers out there who were

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Speaker 3: telling who were writing about climate change or talking about

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Speaker 3: climate change at that scale or with that scope. And

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Speaker 3: it felt like to me at least, a real missing

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Speaker 3: feature of the conversation that you know, we knew about

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Speaker 3: particular scientific studies, and we knew about particular efforts at

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Speaker 3: resilience and decarversation, but there was just something really quite

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Speaker 3: big picture that was almost lost along the way, which

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Speaker 3: was just this will be the defining force of the

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Speaker 3: twenty first century and beyond almost no matter what we do,

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Speaker 3: but what we do today because of that is going

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Speaker 3: to be incredibly, incredibly consequential, and we can't put off

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Speaker 3: acting in the way that we have, but we also

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Speaker 3: can't put off reckoning with what it will mean to

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Speaker 3: be living on a transformed planet. So you know, I

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Speaker 3: wrote that story in twenty seventeen that was really looking

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Speaker 3: at worst case scenarios, and then that brought me into

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Speaker 3: a We've talked about this a little bit before. That

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Speaker 3: brought me into some conversations with scientists who sort of

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Speaker 3: took issue with what I was doing. And those conversations,

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Speaker 3: which are often were, you know, more like arguments, made

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Speaker 3: me just feel even more intensely that like there was

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Speaker 3: one aspect of this or one approach to the story

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Speaker 3: that had been sort of closed off, and that the

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Speaker 3: or was, you know, judging just for myself as a reader,

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Speaker 3: there was at least one reader who wanted to read

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Speaker 3: stories written in that tone and that perspective and who

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Speaker 3: are poorly served by the sort of prohibition against alarming

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Speaker 3: climate narratives.

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Speaker 1: So you've talked before about being drawn into the climate

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Speaker 1: story in part Oh, yeah, actually we talked about this

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Speaker 1: that one of the things that you were looking at too,

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Speaker 1: is just that like none of your competitors were covering

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Speaker 1: climate in this way that you that you had kind

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Speaker 1: of talked about that, you know, no one was looking

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Speaker 1: at the worst case scenarios. So you know, time has

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Speaker 1: proven you right, But now it seems like, you know,

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Speaker 1: more outlets are covering the climate crisis in kind of

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Speaker 1: increasingly more in different ways. So what do you kind

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Speaker 1: of see when you look around the landscape of media now.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it depends where you're looking. I think

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Speaker 3: in the best like text journalism, I think you're seeing

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Speaker 3: quite good coverage and quite a lot of progress having

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Speaker 3: been made. You know, it used to be fair to

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Speaker 3: say that, like Climate chang should be on the fun

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Speaker 3: page of New York Times every day, and like it's

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Speaker 3: sort of now on the fun page of the New

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Speaker 3: York Times every day, and the Washington Post and you know,

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Speaker 3: other other text based outlets I think have done a

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Speaker 3: quite good job as well, like all all all the

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Speaker 3: way down through the ecosystem. But TV news is just

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Speaker 3: so appallingly bad on this still, and you know, a

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Speaker 3: huge proportion of Americans get their get their news there

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Speaker 3: and that's really distressing and disconcerting. In terms of the

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Speaker 3: kinds of storytelling, I think we've had an incredible renaissance

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Speaker 3: in It's not just that people are doing more clear

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Speaker 3: eyed writing about scary prospects. It's that there's just a

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Speaker 3: lot more climate writing and climate storytelling in general. I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is one of the reasons of your show. It

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Speaker 3: was such a it's so valuable because it's a guide

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Speaker 3: to all of this stuff. Like three years ago, you

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Speaker 3: could not have made this podcast, like there wouldn't have

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Speaker 3: been enough to talk about, or if you were, it

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Speaker 3: was only like obscure things that nobody was reading. And

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Speaker 3: now it really feels like there's so many things to process,

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Speaker 3: even at the very center of our sort of journalistic

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Speaker 3: and storytelling culture. So that's incredibly good news. You know,

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Speaker 3: there are particular, small, particular parts of the story that

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Speaker 3: I think have been sort of undercovered or under explored,

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Speaker 3: but not in the same like I see a major

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Speaker 3: failing across the across the whole culture way that I

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Speaker 3: did a few years ago. How do you guys see it?

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting because we talked about this before that,

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Speaker 1: like on the like you know, we the first few

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Speaker 1: episodes we tried to look at like what was happening

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Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen twenty seventeen, Like we went year by year.

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Speaker 1: In twenty sixteen was like pretty episode because there really

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Speaker 1: wasn't much.

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Speaker 3: You know, like every year I started.

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Speaker 1: Now like we're we're doing it in real time and

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Speaker 1: we're doing every two weeks and like there's a there's

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Speaker 1: as much to talk about it, like every two weeks

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Speaker 1: as there was in like a year in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. It's crazy how much it's like exploded and

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Speaker 1: just I don't know how many different ways people are

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Speaker 1: tackling the story now too. It's super interesting. I feel

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Speaker 1: like you're seeing more people kind of reference climate change

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Speaker 1: and stories that aren't maybe explicitly about climate too, you know,

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Speaker 1: like I just feel like that's happening more. But it

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Speaker 1: is amazing to me still that the TV folks have

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Speaker 1: not caught up with that, you know, like I think,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, you're still seeing the occasional you know,

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Speaker 1: American Enterprise Institute spokesperson on cable news talking about climate change,

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Speaker 1: which seems crazy to me. It seems like a time machine.

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Speaker 3: The thing that I always think about is like, just

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Speaker 3: you're covering like a hurricane or some other natural disaster.

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Speaker 3: How do you not even if you're working simply from

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Speaker 3: the logic of like we need to we need to,

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Speaker 3: you know, keep, we need to attract and keep as

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Speaker 3: many viewers as we possibly can. To me, it's like

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Speaker 3: the story of natural disaster is even more horrifying and

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Speaker 3: gripping if you're like, oh, and by the way, like

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Speaker 3: the future is going to be dominated by these kinds

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Speaker 3: of events which are going to be coming more and

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Speaker 3: more frequently, and yet every TV producer just totally neglects

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Speaker 3: that that part of the story, which is it from

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Speaker 3: being just a tragedy to being like horrifying portent in

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Speaker 3: a way that I, at least eyes of you are

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Speaker 3: I'm drawn in more by I was just gonna say,

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Speaker 3: it's interesting about all of these things in terms of

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Speaker 3: the coverage of coronavirus. So you know, we're we're seeing

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Speaker 3: I think a journalistic response to this story unfolding in

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Speaker 3: real time that is in certain ways heroic and like herculean,

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Speaker 3: and people are like, you know, doing so much to

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Speaker 3: report in incredibly difficult circumstances and writing stories, you know,

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Speaker 3: spanning the intimate and personal to like the big and analytic,

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Speaker 3: and I think we're sort of informed in a kind

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Speaker 3: of unprecedented way, you know, compared to anything that even

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Speaker 3: feels puts to an equivalent experience in the past. And

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Speaker 3: yet at the same time, it feels like, I don't

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Speaker 3: know how you guys feel. I feel unable to process

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Speaker 3: this news myself in any systematic way. It feels incredibly piecemeal,

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Speaker 3: like I'm chasing after a little bits of the story

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Speaker 3: and maybe I just can't get my mind around the

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Speaker 3: full scope and scale of it. But it feels there

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Speaker 3: has to be some sort of storytelling opportunity or failure

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Speaker 3: in there too, if if I you know, it's all

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Speaker 3: I'm reading every day, and yet I don't feel like

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Speaker 3: I'm actually I've actually kind of come to grips with it.

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Speaker 2: So David So she published The Unhabitable Earth, You've emerged

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Speaker 2: as one of the more visible spokespeople for the climate movement,

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Speaker 2: and how has it felt to answer that space of

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Speaker 2: someone who was like previously pretty behind the scenes as

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Speaker 2: an editor? I think maybe I'm projecting onto you a

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Speaker 2: little bit having made that move myself. Have you drawn

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Speaker 2: any parameters for yourself about what you're comfortable doing or

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Speaker 2: not doing well?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I feel like there are like a bunch

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Speaker 3: of different questions in there, and the answer to all

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Speaker 3: of them is just like it's been really weird. I mean, like,

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Speaker 3: first of all, even hearing you describe me as a

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Speaker 3: as part of the movement makes me a little uncomfortable,

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Speaker 3: because I come to the subject really from a different

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Speaker 3: place from from you know, from background and journalism and

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Speaker 3: even just temperamentally as someone who is really like an

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Speaker 3: observer kind of wallflower rather than like a participant who

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Speaker 3: gets into the political fray. On the other hand, so

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Speaker 3: I also look at the you know, the world we're

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Speaker 3: facing in the future, we're facing on what needs to

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Speaker 3: be done to avoid it, and think, you know, we

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Speaker 3: probably need a lot more people to feel dragged into

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Speaker 3: the fray than are themselves inclined to be. And you know,

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Speaker 3: if anybody who is temperamentally disinclined has to play some

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Speaker 3: kind of a role, probably I should be one of

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Speaker 3: the first, since I have sort of stumbled into this

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Speaker 3: sort of platform and profile. But you know, I still

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Speaker 3: feel myself like I have a kind of a hybrid

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Speaker 3: identity in which I, you know, I feel comfortable like

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Speaker 3: working with activists, helping you know, doing like fundraising and

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Speaker 3: helping them with some of their messaging without actually like

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Speaker 3: feeling comfortable going up at a rally and like getting

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Speaker 3: behind the mic myself. It may just be a matter

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Speaker 3: of time, It may just be like, you know, some

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Speaker 3: changes take a little while to sink in, and I'm

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Speaker 3: still relatively early. But also, you know, in general, when

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Speaker 3: people ask me what they should do if they want

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Speaker 3: to make a difference, I say, like, you know, we

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Speaker 3: need all kinds of different people doing all kinds of

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Speaker 3: different things, and like engaging politically and trying to make

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Speaker 3: make make your herd is one of those things. But

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Speaker 3: you know you can you can help those people. You

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Speaker 3: can help the movement in a lot of other ways too,

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Speaker 3: So maybe it's okay then I'm I'm mostly still working

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Speaker 3: behind a desk as a writer. Then there's also just

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Speaker 3: been a weirdness of I think Mary that you've had

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Speaker 3: some similar experiences, just the weirdness of being out in

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Speaker 3: public at all, sort of independent of the political cause.

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Speaker 3: It's just a little bit emotionally disorienting to see yourself

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Speaker 3: referred to by people who you don't know and like

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Speaker 3: be the subject of conversations and yeah, that sort of

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Speaker 3: I hate it, And you know, it's not it's it's

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Speaker 3: not something that I ever expected for myself or wanted

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Speaker 3: for myself. And it's gratifying of course in certain ways,

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Speaker 3: and it's good to be doing it in the service

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Speaker 3: of a cause I think is important, but it's also

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Speaker 3: you know, like, you know, can make me feel like

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Speaker 3: an impostor and someone who doesn't deserve the attention. And

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Speaker 3: and also, you know, just like sort of eerie in

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Speaker 3: the sense that you see, you know, this hologram of

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Speaker 3: yourself emerge out into the world that looks like you,

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Speaker 3: and there's you know, sounds like you, and sort of

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Speaker 3: things like you, but it's not exactly you. And you

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Speaker 3: don't know exactly what your ownership over that hologram is

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Speaker 3: because it's not total. It is shaped by the way

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Speaker 3: that other people are processing your work, which they should

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Speaker 3: process your work and come to opinions about you and

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Speaker 3: your work. And nevertheless, you know, still weird. How has

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Speaker 3: it been? How do you? How would you do? How

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Speaker 3: would each of you answer that question?

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Speaker 2: I was hoping to steal your answer. I I fucking

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Speaker 2: hate it. I really I don't like being a public person.

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Speaker 2: I was really happy being behind a dusk and being

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Speaker 2: anonymous and basically like telling other people what to go

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Speaker 2: out in publicans thing while I hid behind them like

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Speaker 2: the puppet master. But that ship is sale because the

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Speaker 2: things I wanted people say, nobody wanted to say them,

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Speaker 2: and I felt like they needed to be said, so

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Speaker 2: I said them, and I sort of drew parameters around

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Speaker 2: things I did and didn't want to do, Like I

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Speaker 2: don't ever, ever, ever want to go on cable news

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Speaker 2: that looks like my literal nightmare. There's definitely been times

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Speaker 2: where I've wanted to pull it back, but that feels

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Speaker 2: irresponsible given the moment that we're at. This isn't a

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Speaker 2: vanity project. This is like the balance of life on

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Speaker 2: Earth kind of hangs in the balance. And not that

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Speaker 2: I I think I myself can save life on Earth,

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Speaker 2: but I think that you have to do what you can,

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Speaker 2: and walking away from the platform feels like a dereliction

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Speaker 2: of duty at this.

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Speaker 1: Point, I would just say that, like, I also struggle

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Speaker 1: with this thing. And I mean, I feel like I've

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Speaker 1: been you know, I've been reporting on climate for like fifteen,

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Speaker 1: like eighteen years now, and I still feel this weird

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Speaker 1: tension between doing journalism and like being an advocate, and

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Speaker 1: I feel like, well, climate change is like a really

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Speaker 1: tough subject in that regard, Like it's I don't really

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Speaker 1: feel like you can just stay distant from it, you know.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I don't know. I get asked this a lot,

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Speaker 1: because you know, I definitely like come to conclusions in

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Speaker 1: my stories and in the podcast and all that kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff too, and I feel, I don't know, I've

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Speaker 1: kind of come to this thing of like, look, if

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Speaker 1: you have a mountain of evidence, then it's to me

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Speaker 1: it seems like almost as are more biased to not

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Speaker 1: come to to the like logical conclusion that that evidence

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Speaker 1: points to then, you know, than to just say, like, so,

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Speaker 1: you know, here's the evidence, and obviously that means x

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Speaker 1: y Z.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know, but I still, like, I still

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Speaker 1: worry about it, and I definitely like, I still like

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Speaker 1: go back and delete tweets because I'm worried that it's

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Speaker 1: like ooh too much.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I will say that, Like it kind

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Speaker 2: of reminds me this kind of tension about journalists becoming activists.

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Speaker 2: It reminds me a lot about like why we had

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Speaker 2: a black press for a really long time in this country,

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Speaker 2: because they were seen as self interested for having opinions

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Speaker 2: on whether or not Jim Crow should exists, and they

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Speaker 2: had those opinions because they wanted to live right.

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Speaker 1: So that's something I've been thinking about a lot too,

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Speaker 1: because the black press existed alongside the sort of like

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Speaker 1: muck rakers in the early twentieth century too, and like

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Speaker 1: a lot of that, I don't know, a lot of

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Speaker 1: I don't know. There's been sort of a like a

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Speaker 1: shift away from from like journalists having an antagonistic relationship

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Speaker 1: with sort of corporate America that I don't necessarily think

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Speaker 1: is like as objective as it gets painted as.

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Speaker 3: I was just going to say that history is a

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Speaker 3: reminder that what we think of as like the kind

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Speaker 3: of objective professional boundaries of this profession are were actually

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Speaker 3: erected to keep certain voices and perspectives out as and

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Speaker 3: to protect largely protect the stored sort of status quo

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Speaker 3: structures of power in our country, even when those structures

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Speaker 3: of power were quite oppressive than brutal.

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Speaker 1: Totally. Yeah, I mean this whole the most recent season

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Speaker 1: of Drilled is all about like sort of the creation

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Speaker 1: of that machine. There was yeah, like you know, sort

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Speaker 1: of powerful people. I mean, you know, there's this whole

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Speaker 1: there was this whole thing to it, like the dawn

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Speaker 1: of the twentieth century where like people in power were

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Speaker 1: very concerned about the idea of like you know, sort

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Speaker 1: of the crowd having too much say.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and and not at all interested in like what

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Speaker 4: we like to pretend is American democracy, and like, I

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Speaker 4: don't know, it's it's very like, yeah, the.

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Speaker 1: What gets sort of described as quote unquote objective journalism

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Speaker 1: was definitely created to keep to like maintain the status

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Speaker 1: quote power structure. So I think, like I, I I

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Speaker 1: don't know, like I sometimes people will be like, oh, like,

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Speaker 1: you know you hate the oil companies. I'm like, I

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Speaker 1: don't actually like, as soon as the oil companies stop misbehaving,

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Speaker 1: I'm more than happy to move on to something else.

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Speaker 1: I fucking hate them. I'll hate them forever and buying that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So your deputy editor at your magazine, which gives you

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Speaker 1: some amount of control over the magazine's climate coverage. I

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Speaker 1: would imagine, are you sort of like the guy who

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Speaker 1: is like, you know, the subject matter expert on climate,

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Speaker 1: and like, if so, how are you trying to shape

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Speaker 1: the magazine's coverage, which you know includes your own reporting?

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean I wouldn't say like I run

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Speaker 3: it exclusively. You know, it's a pretty big operation, and

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Speaker 3: so we have all these different parts of the of

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Speaker 3: the company. There's you know, the cut and intelligence are

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Speaker 3: are both sort of quasi autonomous operations, and each of

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Speaker 3: them have people writing about climate in ways that I

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Speaker 3: only sort of touch on. Incidentally, the stuff I had

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Speaker 3: to do in the magazine is just find a place

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Speaker 3: for slightly weirder, stranger, less predictable climate stories. So over

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Speaker 3: the last few months, maybe four months, published two pieces

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Speaker 3: in the magazine that I think were pretty cool. One

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Speaker 3: was this climate Diary by Emily Rabbito, which he had

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Speaker 3: been sort of keeping over the course of the year

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Speaker 3: on Twitter, which was really just the sort of series

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Speaker 3: of vignettes from her her experience just talking taking you know,

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Speaker 3: taking seriously admonission to talk about climate whenever you're thinking

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Speaker 3: about it, bringing it up in basically every context in

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Speaker 3: her life, and sort of recording those conversations. And that

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Speaker 3: felt in a lot of ways like a piece that

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Speaker 3: would have been more naturally at home in like a

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Speaker 3: literary journal than in a glossy magazine. But I think

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Speaker 3: it was pretty great and pretty great that we were

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Speaker 3: able to do it at some real length. And then

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Speaker 3: we published this piece that Malcolm har Us wrote about

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Speaker 3: sort of like being invited to one of the ELL's

415
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Speaker 3: like future planning conferences as a consultant basically and like

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Speaker 3: discarding their rules and writing about it anyway, and it

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Speaker 3: wasn't they were like any huge surprises in that piece

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Speaker 3: about for people who knew about how the oil companies

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Speaker 3: were thinking about the future, but just feeling like you

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Speaker 3: were in the room I think was really revelatory. And

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Speaker 3: the way, I mean to get back to what we

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Speaker 3: were talking about a minute ago about journalistic convention, I

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Speaker 3: think there was actually something pretty exciting about the way

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Speaker 3: that that story explicitly discarded the journalistic convention of like,

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Speaker 3: if you make a promise or an agreement with a source,

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Speaker 3: if you have to keep it, and he basically didn't.

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Speaker 3: And you know, probably I should be doing more of

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Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. I should be making more room

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Speaker 3: for these, for climate stories in general in the magazine,

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Speaker 3: But it is still a general interest magazine, so we

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Speaker 3: do a lot of different stuff, and I think the

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Speaker 3: kind of exciting thing is to find a place for

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Speaker 3: offbeat stories that are differently perspective, stories that wouldn't wouldn't

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Speaker 3: really have a home in other publications a similar stature,

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Speaker 3: And then you know, the stuff that we do on

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Speaker 3: the website is much more iterative, it's much more you know,

437
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 3: writers move according to their own interests much more. It's

438
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 3: like less editor driven and more sort of from the

439
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 3: keyboard up. But I think we've been we've we've been

440
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 3: doing a relatively good job of covering covering this stuff

441
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 3: across the site. Again, we could do more, but in general,

442
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 3: I think, like you know, New York Magazine does like

443
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 3: the Way we Live Now kind of stories. Really well,

444
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 3: We're not going to be competing with like the New

445
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 3: York Times for the Washington Post to be doing like

446
00:26:53,800 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: big like direct science reporting. It's much more all of

447
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 3: the other adjacent opportunities to do personal essay and to

448
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 3: do like big picture kind of think pieces and that

449
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 3: sort of thing. And I think, you know, like everybody,

450
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 3: were still learning, but I've been trying to deliver more

451
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 3: and more of it into what we do.

452
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: That Malcolm Harris piece was my standout piece on our

453
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: last episode. I thought it was so good and I

454
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: was like, oh man, this is awesome. I love it.

455
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,239
Speaker 2: I want to take this opportunity to ask about my

456
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 2: favorite climate headline ever, which was in New York Magazine

457
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: last May. Humanity is about to kill one million species

458
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 2: in a globe spanning murder suicide David did you do

459
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 2: you know anything about how that headline came to be

460
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 2: or what that moment looked like.

461
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 3: I wish I could, I wish I could recall it,

462
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 3: but I just it. It sounds like a perfect headline.

463
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 4: It is, it is.

464
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 2: I've been obsessed with it ever since I've seen it.

465
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 2: But anyway, so, what would you like to see changed

466
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: about climate storytelling in twenty twenty?

467
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, Well.

468
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 3: I'm curious to know what you guys, how you guys

469
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 3: would answer this question. My own feeling is the boring

470
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 3: answer is the most important one, which is just that

471
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 3: it needs to be elevated in front and center. And

472
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 3: you know, we talked a little bit about before about

473
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 3: how much more central climate stuff now seems to be

474
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 3: than it was even just a few years ago. And

475
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 3: yet we're still born with, you know, presidential debates in

476
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 3: which if a climate question is asked, it's at the

477
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 3: very end of the debate. It doesn't yet, even though

478
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 3: public opinion polls showed it Americans care quite a lot

479
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 3: more about climate than they did a few years ago,

480
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 3: it's still not the case that they care enough about

481
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 3: it or prioritizing it in their political choices, and as

482
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 3: we're heading into like an unbelievably consequential electionist November, it's

483
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 3: be really great if you know, of the press that

484
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 3: was covering that election made it clear just what kind

485
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 3: of climate stakes we're dealing with. I mean, I started

486
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 3: writing a couple of weeks ago a piece right after

487
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 3: Super Tuesday and ended up not publishing it, in part

488
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 3: just because I got distracted, and then when I had

489
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 3: time to turn back to it, it was just it

490
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 3: felt like the news had moved on to the coronavirus.

491
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 3: But this, which about the first line of the piece,

492
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 3: was like, there are not many days that you can

493
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 3: point to as being like singularly consequential for the future

494
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 3: of the planet, and you know, obviously like Election Day

495
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 3: is going to be. At the point of the piece

496
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 3: was like Super Tuesday was sort of one of those

497
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 3: because we saw the you know, the Sanders can be

498
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 3: extinguished and the Biden candidacy basically secure nominations were secured.

499
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 3: But the election day is going to be so much

500
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 3: more consequential than that. Even if you you know, even

501
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 3: acknowledging all of the limitations of Joe Biden as a

502
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 3: climate like as the face of climate action and all

503
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 3: of the baggage that he brings to the table, like

504
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 3: the Even so, the differences between these two options are

505
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 3: just so so vastly different, and the importance of the

506
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 3: country picking the right one of those two is so huge.

507
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: Somehow Trump is like having a better you know, sort

508
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: of aid package response on coronavirus than like the fucking

509
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: Democratic leadership. It's going to make it that much harder

510
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: to get him out of office.

511
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's sort of my own feeling

512
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 3: is like I just can't see a way that he

513
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 3: really survives this. On the other hand, November is like

514
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 3: five centuries from now. It's like, at the speed of

515
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,959
Speaker 3: things are going with this, with this crisis, with with

516
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 3: the disease crisis, it's really hard to feel confident in

517
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 3: any prediction or projection that you're making, even like a

518
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 3: or that.

519
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: It's crazy. Yeah, wellatly you note. That's that's enough for today. No,

520
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: I'm just kidding, Okay, So we're going to move into

521
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: our Themes and Trends section. We wanted to talk to

522
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: you about something that we've talked about a couple of

523
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: times on the show, but really wanted to get your

524
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: input on it. And that is just how the climate

525
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: media landscape has been changing, especially in the last year

526
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: or two. So you know, we had NPR and Bloomberg

527
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:35,959
Speaker 1: both expanding their climate coverage desks, like an explosion of

528
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: climate newsletters. So you have heated exon news Eric Holdthouse

529
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: at The Correspondent and now Bill mckibbons climate newsletter with

530
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: The New Yorker. David were you were you tempted to

531
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: start a climate newsletter in there?

532
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: There's still time.

533
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 3: I did think about it at some point, but didn't

534
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 3: I didn't act fast enough. Of all of those developments,

535
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 3: I actually think that the most consequential one is the

536
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 3: Bloomberg expansion. I just think, like you know, I'm sure

537
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 3: most of my readers, I'm sure are like members of

538
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 3: the choir. So I don't want to like diminish, like

539
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 3: preaching to the choir, but I do think there is

540
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 3: something actually much more significant about an operation like Bloomberg's,

541
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: which is basically publishing to a different kind of reader

542
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 3: who has a very different perspective on climate, nevertheless being

543
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 3: as aggressive about presenting the state of play and the

544
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 3: urgency of the crisis as they have done. And I

545
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 3: think you know, thinking beyond the media landscape, you know,

546
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 3: I do really think like the movement that we're seeing

547
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 3: in the financial in corporate world is really or we

548
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 3: were seeing before coronavirus changed everything was really significant. It

549
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 3: was you know, no, basically no company is moving at

550
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 3: the speed that they need to, and most of their

551
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 3: commitments are empty and rhetorical gestures at best. And yet

552
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 3: like twelve or eighteen months ago, like even that would

553
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 3: have been completely unthinkable. And the fact that all of

554
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 3: those you know, from black Rock to Microsoft to Delta

555
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 3: to you know, whatever, all of those people are talking

556
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 3: about climate change now is I think it means that

557
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 3: we're really in a different place than we were a

558
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 3: year or two ago, you know. And it's not just

559
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 3: because of corporate momentum. It's because of the you know,

560
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 3: it's because of the protests, and it's because of public

561
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 3: opinion moving, it's because of extreme weather and all that.

562
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 3: But I do think that, you know, I do think

563
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 3: that like the movement of the of the davosphere on

564
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 3: this point is a really significant development. I don't know

565
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 3: in the end, like how productive it will be, but

566
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 3: it does seem like it really does change the shape

567
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 3: of the landscape, and yeah, who knows where it leads,

568
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 3: but it is. Its seemed really significant to me in

569
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 3: the Bloomberg journalistic expansion seems like a big part of that. Yeah.

570
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, If like we were to build a time machine

571
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 2: and go back to twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, whenever you

572
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 2: were about to write an Inhabitable Earth and doing your

573
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 2: media analysis then, and told you what the media landscape

574
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 2: look like for climate now, how surprised would you be?

575
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 3: Pretty surprised? I mean, you know, I I I I

576
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 3: guess I have this inclination. I'm not sure exactly what

577
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 3: it comes from, some mix of like our culturation and

578
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 3: you know, the era in which I was raised and whatever.

579
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 3: But I guess I tend to think that, like things

580
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 3: can change that quickly. I tend to think that like

581
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 3: the world as it is is pretty stable and static,

582
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 3: and even if it is brutal and cruel, that those

583
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 3: brutalities and cruelties are likely to continue, even against the

584
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 3: protests of people who are fighting them. And I do

585
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 3: think that's sort of like a I mean that in

586
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 3: a lot of ways, the last few have shown us

587
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 3: just how foolish that assumption really is. And I mean,

588
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 3: I felt that way very powerfully watching the year of

589
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 3: climate protests that have unfolded really since I since I

590
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 3: published my book, I mean started a little bit before then,

591
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 3: but you know, that was a level of public agitation

592
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 3: and I didn't think it was possible when I'd written

593
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 3: my book. And now I'm like, how night I thought

594
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 3: I was being like cynical, but actually I was being

595
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 3: naive or maybe those are kind of the same thing

596
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 3: in not expecting much politically to change it. You look

597
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 3: at you know, I mentioned a minute ago Joe Biden.

598
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 3: Joe Biden is like understood by many people in the

599
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 3: climate community to be like hopelessly backward on climate issues,

600
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 3: and judged by some of the other candidates who are

601
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 3: running for president, he absolutely is, but judged by the

602
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 3: standard of Hillary in twenty sixteen or by the Obama administration,

603
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 3: like he is actually way, way, way more aggressive and ambitious.

604
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 3: And you know, that kind of movement is it's almost

605
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 3: like dizzying, even if it's also totally inadequate. And I

606
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 3: think that's true of journalism too. We've like, you know,

607
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 3: the New York Times, there's a whole climate desk we're seeing,

608
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 3: you know, like you know, apologies to your your favorite

609
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 3: cable news, but like we're seeing a lot more cable

610
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 3: news coverage of it, even if it's not great, and

611
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 3: even if it's not as responsible as we'd want, all

612
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 3: of these things are like really remarkable developments. Like in

613
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 3: our politics, it's not nearly enough, but nevertheless it's surprised

614
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 3: me personally. And then you know, I hate to keep

615
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 3: bringing this back to coronavirus, which since we're supposed to

616
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 3: be talking about climate.

617
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 1: But no we should.

618
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 3: I felt this really profoundly over the last few weeks.

619
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 3: Is like, you know, you heard you hear so much

620
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 3: from the world's most powerful people when talking to them

621
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 3: about climate that's like, well, that kind of is that's

622
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 3: never going to happen. These things, you know, these markets

623
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 3: are going to move that quickly. We can't possibly like

624
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 3: you know, evict these people from their positions of power,

625
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 3: like all of those you know, we have to work

626
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,439
Speaker 3: with these corporations, these fossil fuel companies, like we can't

627
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 3: work against them. And you know, I always went along

628
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 3: thinking basically like there was some moral failure in that perspective,

629
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 3: but it also struck me on some level a practical

630
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 3: like approach to the world to like try to cultivate

631
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 3: the support and sympathy of powerful people rather than thinking

632
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 3: you could only make progress by unseating them. And yet,

633
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 3: like the whole world has literally been turned upside down

634
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: over the course of the last couple of months. We

635
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 3: are now we're now in an environment where I mean, Amy,

636
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 3: you made reference this a few minutes ago, but you know,

637
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,959
Speaker 3: Mitt Romney is basically proposing a universal basic income, nationalizing

638
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 3: all of these airline companies, and you know, in the end, actually,

639
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 3: I think it's not going to be like that. I

640
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 3: actually don't think it's going to be the case that

641
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 3: Republicans have like outflying Democrats on this. But the fact

642
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 3: that they're even talking about that those possibilities or that

643
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 3: those are you know that that's part of the part

644
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 3: of the conversation anywhere. But the fringe left is astounding

645
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 3: and tells us and if we ever thought anything was

646
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 3: permanent and immovable about our politics and our society, this

647
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 3: experience teaches us that that is, that was total delusion,

648
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 3: a collective desire to protect the status quo. And when

649
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 3: we're facing something that we'd see genuinely as a near

650
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 3: term urgent existential threat. Everything comes up, you know, is

651
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 3: up for is up for debate. Where we land I

652
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: think remains a huge open question on this. Like I'm

653
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 3: I'm quite worried just thinking about the economic impacts for

654
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,479
Speaker 3: a second, Like in two thousand and nine that people

655
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 3: who could afford to buy distressed assets were the rich,

656
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 3: which meant that like they used the recession to exacerbate

657
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 3: income inequality. I think something quite likely is going to

658
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 3: happen with this economic recession on climate issues. We've already

659
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 3: seen China relaxing their environmental standard in an effort to

660
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 3: recover more quickly from their relatively short economic setback, and

661
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 3: I we're going to see something similar across the West,

662
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 3: if not relaxing existing environmental standards, then a slowing down

663
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 3: of progress on climate policy generally. I've seen a lot

664
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 3: of people on the climate left saying this is basically

665
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 3: like this is our chance, Like the world of opportunities

666
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 3: is now open, Like the whole spectrum is much wider.

667
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 3: We can get a lot betwer and we have to

668
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 3: make sure that whatever stimulus or recovery policies are put

669
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 3: into place are essentially climate policies. That is what I

670
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 3: would like to see happen. But I also don't at

671
00:39:58,080 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 3: all think that it's inevitable.

672
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: The concern is that it'll be like that. Basically, this

673
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 1: becomes the big excuse for like we can't spend money

674
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: on anything else, and we can't impose like radical change

675
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: in any other way, you know what I mean, Like

676
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: I just know I'm worried about it.

677
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you I mean you see this, you know,

678
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 3: when you if you look at the public opinion polls

679
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 3: about concern about climate, you know, it was quite high.

680
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 3: And two thousand and five, you know, six two thousand

681
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 3: and seven, you know, Hurricane Katrina, and then in convenient

682
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 3: truth really did make a difference to American concern about

683
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 3: the environment wasn't nearly as high as it should be.

684
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 3: And you know, but it was, it was moving in

685
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 3: the right direction, right, and then it had a big

686
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 3: setback because of the recession, and people just were like

687
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 3: worry about that.

688
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: Later exactly, these sort of very immediate concerns come up.

689
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: Climate doesn't tend to like, you know, stay top of

690
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: mind in general.

691
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 3: I mean, I think we are in a slightly different

692
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 3: place in that more people understand how interconnected all of

693
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 3: these things are. And more people do understand that, like

694
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 3: climate is not just one issue alongside a lot of others,

695
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 3: but sort of the environment in which, so to speak,

696
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 3: in which all of these other issues are being conducted.

697
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 3: But nevertheless, I think it's quite yeah, quite quite worrying

698
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 3: and quite concerning that. I mean, for instance, like COP

699
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 3: twenty six is almost certain to be postponed, Like that's

700
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,919
Speaker 3: just on some level, like a small part of the story,

701
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 3: but it's quite representative, like that was supposed to be

702
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 3: a really significant event in global climate policy and we

703
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 3: don't know when it's going to take place now.

704
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's been failing for the past few years.

705
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: So like, honestly, after last year, I think on our

706
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: show we were kind of like, just make that shit

707
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 2: a zoom calling.

708
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: We did in fact recommend that it become a zoom,

709
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: which they could still do.

710
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 2: It actually might be less of a ship show. But

711
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: speaking of Corona, I think what's interesting about going through

712
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: this moment as someone who's climate conscious is that you

713
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: can't help but look at Corona without thinking about climate

714
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 2: at the same time, because honestly, once you see climate,

715
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 2: you can't see anything without seeing it. So just like

716
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 2: as human beings. I think all three of us are

717
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 2: in the hardest hit states. I'm in the Bronx, I'm

718
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 2: in New York City. David, You're in New York too.

719
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I mean at the moment, I'm along.

720
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 2: With Yeah, sort of fled the city a little bit.

721
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 2: And Amy's out in California. How are y'all dealing with

722
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 2: the quarantine?

723
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: You know, I'm having like a weird I'm having a

724
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: weird sort of like anxiety response where I basically am

725
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: like extremely tired all day and then wide awake until

726
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: like three or four am. It's super frustrating and annoying,

727
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: and I don't know, I just also am like I

728
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: feel like it's just it's hard to plan anything, you know,

729
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: Like my husband and I were in the of like

730
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: considering a move, for example, which is like it's like

731
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 1: I kind of can't even really talk about it because

732
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: we just don't know what's going to happen in the

733
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: next two weeks or the next month or the next

734
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: two months, and you know, it's sort of yeah, I

735
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: don't know. And then I'm far away from my mom

736
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 1: and my brother and I'm concerned about both of them.

737
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: So that's a worry too, and I've got my kids

738
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: home and I'm trying not to freak them out, and yeah,

739
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: so yeah, I don't know. How about you.

740
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 2: I keep stockpiling coconut water for some strange reason and hydrating, yeah,

741
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: and doing Obsessa's skincare, and I am just extremely anxious.

742
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:42,760
Speaker 2: I keep like checking the news to see if there's

743
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 2: any sort of concrete information about how long does this

744
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: going to last? And at this point, I think I

745
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 2: could survive three months. After three months, I think I

746
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 2: will probably literally lose my mind. And yeah, I I

747
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: need this to I need it to end.

748
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 3: What about you, David, It's interesting just to think about,

749
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 3: Like Imber, I don't remember where I heard it. It was

750
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 3: on some podcast I was listening to recently, but someone

751
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 3: floated the idea that one of the one of the many.

752
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,439
Speaker 3: Obviously there are many explanations, but one of the many

753
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 3: explanations for why the real left declined in America over

754
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 3: the course of that sort of second half of the

755
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 3: twentieth century was because of the changing dynamics of of

756
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 3: city life and suburban life, in the sense that like

757
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 3: at the moment now, many cities in the US are

758
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 3: are like extremely expensive full of wealthy you know, wealthy people,

759
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 3: and those people who might otherwise form the basis of

760
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 3: real political resistance are now atomized in a much more

761
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 3: profound way, living in environments in which they are disagrogated

762
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 3: and pushed away from another. And it's it's a sort

763
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,879
Speaker 3: of of all the things to be worrying about with coronavirus,

764
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 3: like the fact that we're all just living in our

765
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 3: apartments alone is and it's the political consequences of that

766
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 3: are like very far down the list, but it does

767
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 3: make me wonder, like, you know, just what it will

768
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 3: mean to our spirit of solidarity and what is politically

769
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 3: possible for us? Yeah, you know, yeah, literally living in quarantine.

770
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, in isolation. I'm really really really worried about that,

771
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 2: especially as far as the climate movement goes, because I

772
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 2: think the thing that really got going for the climate

773
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: movement over the past couple of years was that it

774
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 2: was in person, it was a community, and you like

775
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 2: suddenly didn't feel alone, like you went to strikes and

776
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 2: you've got to be part of something. And now if

777
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 2: the thing is I can't come within six feet of

778
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 2: another human being, yeah, like how do you keep that

779
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 2: momentum going, like if I could, if I were to

780
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 2: like go to a lab and create something to like,

781
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 2: you know, deflate the climate movement, it would be something

782
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: that would make us not be able to touch one another.

783
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 2: And especially in a time where even if you know,

784
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 2: even just to survive climate change period, we're going to

785
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 2: need to be able to come together. We're going to

786
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 2: need to be able to be empathetic to one another.

787
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 2: And now we're in a position where we actually have

788
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 2: to walk away from people. That's heartbreaking.

789
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 1: Ye.

790
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 3: And then if you imagine a kind of optimistic scenario

791
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 3: where we implement such a dramatic and expansive medical testing

792
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 3: regimen that it's practically a kind of medical surveillance state,

793
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 3: it also complicates the idea and you know, do that

794
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 3: quickly enough that we could sort of leave our homes

795
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 3: and mostly go about our lives as they were, if

796
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 3: subjecting ourselves a few times a day to temperature checks

797
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 3: or whatever like they've done in South Korea. That's on

798
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 3: some level that's like the most optimistic future because it

799
00:46:57,719 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 3: would mean within the space of three or four weeks

800
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 3: mostly returned to our normal ways of life. On the

801
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 3: other hand, that kind of a system is you know,

802
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 3: bound to be abused by forces that don't want to

803
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 3: see large protest movements. I mean we're already seeing like

804
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 3: Ice claiming new powers in you know, a state of

805
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 3: health emergency than they had before. And you know, it's

806
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 3: and even beyond what abuses may be enacted in that context,

807
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 3: you know, it's just it's a very different dynamic living

808
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 3: in a few months ago.

809
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and especially like I was thinking about that too

810
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 1: in terms of the growing like there's been a big

811
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: push to you know, get these sort of anti riot

812
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: laws on the books to criminalize protests in various ways.

813
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's seventeen states have enacted them now,

814
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: thirty four considering these laws. Mostly they were like a

815
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 1: reaction to pipeline protests, but like, I don't know, I'm

816
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: just kind of like, oh god, you know, all we

817
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: needed to make protests even less you know, palatable this,

818
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: and it you know, just becomes another good reason to

819
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,399
Speaker 1: crack down on it, which is, yeah, I don't know,

820
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: it's scary.

821
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 2: Yeah that there was a piece in The Guardian by

822
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:28,240
Speaker 2: Gillian Ambrose about a coronavirus posing a threat to climate

823
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 2: action from the like based on a conversation with someone

824
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 2: the IEA, which I don't actually know what that stance

825
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 2: for in the article didn't say it was an international

826
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 2: energy agency. I'm just gonna guess it's basically saying that

827
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 2: this could slow down the energy transition. Is just because

828
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 2: all of these stimulus packages are being passed, and so

829
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 2: many of these stimulus packages include rolling back environmental protections

830
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 2: and propping up the fossil fuel industry and the aviation industry,

831
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 2: and it's just so disheartening.

832
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: It's also going to depress oil prices, which tends to

833
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: make consumption go up. I mean, there's a I think

834
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 1: like this sort of I've seen a sort of broad

835
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 1: tendency to celebrate emissions reductions and like clean air and

836
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and it's like, we don't really want

837
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,720
Speaker 1: to achieve that by like making a bunch of people

838
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 1: deathly ill. And I'm very concerned about how much that

839
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:33,439
Speaker 1: sort of take on things really emphasizes individual action. It's

840
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 1: like like I keep seeing people be like, yeah, look

841
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,800
Speaker 1: how we can change our behavior, and I'm like, yeah,

842
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: because that behavior change is being enabled in various ways

843
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: and benefits many many you know, industries and whatnot, and

844
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: the economy at large and whatever, like the the the

845
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 1: idea that that is somehow going to lead to massive

846
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: climate action just doesn't make sense to me, you know,

847
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: And and I don't know, I just I think the

848
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:09,879
Speaker 1: more realistic, probably like the more probable outcome is that

849
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: we you know, we've already got these massive bailouts for

850
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 1: the airline and natural gas industries, oil and gas industry

851
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: in general, and then you know, we're we're going to

852
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: have to spend a lot of money on you know,

853
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: keeping people afloat and helping people pay rent and all

854
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And I think you're going to

855
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: have this sort of twofold thing of you know, we've

856
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: just spent a bunch of money to bail out natural gas,

857
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 1: and we don't have any more money to spend on

858
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: renewable energy transition. I don't I don't think that this

859
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: is like a good story for climate in general. But

860
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: I'm also you know.

861
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's definitely it's a horrible story, Like

862
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 2: there are better ways to reduce emissions, like we put

863
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 2: forth those solutions over and over again. If I just

864
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 2: don't understand this, tennis to be like we're all gonna

865
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 2: die yay, And there has been a lot of good

866
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 2: writing about coronavirus and climate change. David, you did a

867
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 2: pretty good piece in New York Magazine about it good.

868
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,280
Speaker 1: It's pretty good, and I'm just kidding. It's a great piece.

869
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,839
Speaker 2: It's that the one that we're gonna talk about later

870
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:24,439
Speaker 2: is my favorite that Dave's written recently. So, but yeah,

871
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 2: in your research about this and like covering get New

872
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 2: York Magazine, what are some of the themes that you're

873
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:31,800
Speaker 2: seeing vis a vis climate.

874
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, on some of them. I

875
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 3: was saying this to Amy before we started recording, but

876
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 3: on some of them, I feel strangely overwhelmed, as someone

877
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 3: who has spent the last few years really purposely focused

878
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 3: on the job of like contemplating worst case scenarios, to

879
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:57,959
Speaker 3: be faced with this particular story and I'm I really

880
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 3: have I really haven't been able to at the sense

881
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 3: of the full scope of it. But you know, the

882
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 3: things that jump out at me is sort of you know,

883
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 3: they're sort of parallels and then their sort of discontinuities.

884
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 3: You know. One thing is like I think that one

885
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 3: big lesson of coronavirus and climate change share is we

886
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 3: don't live outside of nature. We are vulnerable to nature.

887
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 3: As as modern and protected as we may fancy ourselves being,

888
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 3: everything that we do on this planet is subject to

889
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 3: the winds of the natural world, and those can be

890
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 3: those can be punishing. They can be bountiful that you know,

891
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 3: that can the natural world provides us with a lot

892
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 3: of abundance. But when when things are bad, they can

893
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 3: be overwhelmingly bad, really beyond our capacity to respond. And

894
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 3: that is just not you know, that's not like the

895
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 3: cultural lesson that we've been taught about our relationship to

896
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 3: nature of the past generation in places like the US,

897
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 3: And I think both of these stories are teaching us,

898
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 3: teaching it to us very powerfully. Another thing I see

899
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 3: as a sort of similar lesson from each of them

900
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 3: is that alarmism is valuable. You know, if we had

901
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 3: really freaked out, if China had really freaked out when

902
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:33,399
Speaker 3: they first, like you know, uncovered this virus, there's a

903
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 3: piece out yesterday saying, you know, like they could have

904
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 3: spared ninety they could have avoided ninety five percent of

905
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 3: the deaths that they had and possibly figured out a

906
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 3: way to keep it from spreading through the world. But

907
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 3: instead they sort of didn't want to make a big

908
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 3: deal out of it. They sort of hit it for

909
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,760
Speaker 3: a little while, so that when they finally started talking

910
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 3: about it on the in a public global way, the

911
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 3: cat was sort of already out of the bag. And

912
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 3: then when you look at particular other nations and how

913
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,720
Speaker 3: they responded, you know, we all know the US response best.

914
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 3: You know, there was actually a fair amount of time

915
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 3: between the time that we knew about this disease emerging

916
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 3: in China and the time in which it really started

917
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 3: to move policymaking across the countries of the West. And

918
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 3: the reason that, you know, the reason that Italy and

919
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 3: Spain and the US and Iran, all of these countries

920
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 3: have done so poorly is that they didn't move quickly

921
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 3: enough or dramatically enough. And it's possible that if we

922
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,799
Speaker 3: had all done exactly what South Korea did or something Singapore,

923
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 3: there would be problems with that approach. Maybe it would

924
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 3: involve political overreach, Maybe in retrospect it would seem an

925
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 3: overreaction or something. But I think all of us would

926
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 3: rather be living in South Korea now than in the US,

927
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 3: And that tells us about the value of fast, dramatic

928
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 3: action built on the cautionary principle. And you know, it's

929
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 3: just a reminder, as you know, as climate should be

930
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 3: every day, that if we wait until we're absolutely sure

931
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 3: that we need to do something to protect ourselves, probably

932
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 3: it's going to be too late to actually protect ourselves.

933
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 3: And then we need to be moving much more quickly

934
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 3: and responding with un you know, incomplete knowledge or uncertainty,

935
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 3: not by just assuming the best outcomes but preparing for

936
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 3: the worst outcomes. I think that's like, that's that's really

937
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 3: a valuable lesson here in general. And then the point

938
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 3: I made in a piece I wrote a few weeks

939
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 3: ago about about the sort of common lessons was really

940
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 3: like adaptation isn't enough, you know that, Like, we can

941
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:49,320
Speaker 3: be taking the most aggressive actions all around the world

942
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 3: to protect us from this disease. Some parts of the

943
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 3: world are doing quite a good job, others like the

944
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 3: US are failing. But we could theoretically be on a

945
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 3: quote unquote war footing globally to deal with coronavirus. And

946
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,399
Speaker 3: yet obviously it would have been better if we didn't

947
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 3: have to deal with that problem at all in the

948
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 3: first place. So for those people who talk about climate change,

949
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 3: and say we'll figure out a way to deal with

950
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:16,399
Speaker 3: two degrees or three degrees of warming. We'll figure it out.

951
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 3: We're in an you know, adaptive, resilient species. I actually agree.

952
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 3: I think we are adaptive and resilient. But if we're

953
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 3: we're adapting to a world that is defined by as

954
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 3: much suffering as we now know to expect it two

955
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 3: or three degrees, that will at the very least test

956
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 3: our capacity to adapt and probably you know, break us

957
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 3: and produce an enormous even unprecedented amount of human suffering

958
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:42,839
Speaker 3: along the way. And I think coronavirus teach us us

959
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 3: that too, that like, way better to just you know,

960
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 3: way better to nip the thing in the bud, minimize

961
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 3: the threat that we're dealing with and the challenge we're

962
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 3: dealing with, rather than assume that we can sort of

963
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 3: respond on the back end in a way that protects us,

964
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 3: because as we're seeing now, you simply can't. You simply

965
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 3: can't get ahead of these kinds of things if you

966
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:04,720
Speaker 3: start out behind.

967
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:06,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of those themes that you just mentioned

968
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 2: also kind of came up in the other piece in

969
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 2: the New York Times by Saminis and Gupta climate change

970
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 2: has lessons for fighting coronavirus. Another theme that I can't

971
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 2: help but notice, and maybe this is I know the

972
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 2: research around it is changing a lot, but I think

973
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 2: about how much worse this might have been had we

974
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 2: had a colder winter, And I worry about the pandemics

975
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 2: that will be unleashed in the future that actually are

976
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 2: more adaptive to hot weather than they are to cold weather.

977
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,439
Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't know, that's just something I worry

978
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 2: about a lot.

979
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's you know, it's funny. I've gotten like a

980
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 3: lot of like interview requests and that kind of thing

981
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 3: from people who are like, can we talk about the

982
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 3: connection between coronavirus and climate And it's like the connections

983
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 3: are sort of you know, there's probably some impact, but

984
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 3: it's not quite clear what you'd really say. But big picture,

985
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 3: you know, the devastation of stable ecosystems, the scrambling of

986
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 3: the planet's natural you know, natural boundaries, and the radical

987
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 3: like remixing of the order of life on the planet

988
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 3: is bound to produce many more really challenging diseases. If

989
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 3: not exactly like this, then you know, in then still

990
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 3: in ways that should terrify us. So yeah, exactly. The

991
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 3: they're just like, among many things, the climate change promises

992
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 3: is a is a you know, global public health challenge.

993
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. The other parallel is the way that people are

994
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 2: responding to it, namely the rich. I've seen a lot

995
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 2: of stuff about like rich people just basically running to

996
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 2: their bunkers and waiting it out. And magically all the

997
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 2: celebrities can get tests for it even if they don't

998
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 2: have any symptoms or any sort of contact with anyone,

999
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 2: Like they're flying off the News Zealand with their private

1000
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 2: medical concierge and it's and the rest of us are

1001
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 2: just really left to them for ourselves. And that's another

1002
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 2: response you see a lot with climate of people like oh,

1003
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 2: I'm just going to move to New Zealand, or it's

1004
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 2: just not going to be my problem, and probably know

1005
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 2: where I'm going with this, David, I would love to

1006
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 2: get you to read from a piece that you wrote

1007
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 2: back in December titled We're getting a clearer picture of

1008
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 2: the climate future and it's not as bad as it

1009
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 2: once looked.

1010
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a sort of an interesting piece and

1011
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 3: that mostly it was sort of presenting some good news

1012
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 3: about about what we're like down the road but it

1013
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 3: had this sort of really bleak conclusion, which is at

1014
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 3: the part that you're asking read. But over the last

1015
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 3: few weeks, I've been thinking more about another encounter from

1016
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 3: earlier this fall, one that followed a climate panel I

1017
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 3: just participated in. After the discussion, I was cornered by

1018
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 3: a middle aged businessman who assured me that despite what

1019
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 3: I might think, he did even climate change. Then asked,

1020
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 3: in an almost conspiratorial tone, seeking it seemed to kind

1021
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 3: of secret answer, how bad is it going to be?

1022
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 3: It was a bit of a confusion question after ninety

1023
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 3: minutes of conversation on stage, a conversation he'd chosen to

1024
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 3: attend and paid attention to, presumably, he pointed out, which

1025
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 3: he suggested was a self evidence sign that he took

1026
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 3: the issue seriously. Well. I began at just two degrees

1027
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 3: of warming, which is basically a best case scenario. It's

1028
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 3: been estimated that one hundred and fifty million people would

1029
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:33,919
Speaker 3: die from air pollution. But out of eight billion, he said,

1030
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 3: quickly cutting me off and smiling strangely, right, I said,

1031
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 3: I don't think human extinction are total civilizational collaps is

1032
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 3: likely that the pressures are going to get pretty intense,

1033
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 3: and we don't really know how societies will respond. But

1034
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 3: even if they respond pretty well, I mean, one hundred

1035
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 3: and fifty million is one hundred and fifty million. That's

1036
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 3: a lot of people that's dying at the scale of

1037
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:03,040
Speaker 3: twenty five holocausts, but out of a billion. He repeated, smiling,

1038
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 3: like you caught me in a trap, at which point

1039
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 3: I understood what he'd actually meant by the question he'd posed,

1040
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 3: and why it was so important to him to get

1041
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 3: a precise answer. What he was asking was not how

1042
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 3: bad is it going to be? What he was asking

1043
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 3: was how bad is it going to be for me?

1044
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:28,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that was one of the creepiest things I've

1045
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 2: read recently.

1046
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:32,959
Speaker 3: But don't you guys encounter this kind of thing a lot,

1047
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 3: Like people who ask you, you know, having read a

1048
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 3: story or having seen you speak that they'll come up

1049
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 3: to maybe I have a different audience or whatever. They

1050
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 3: come up to you and they'll be like, so where

1051
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 3: should I move? This is like one of the most

1052
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 3: common questions I.

1053
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 1: Get is I have people asking that all the time.

1054
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 1: You know, which which parts of the world are like,

1055
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 1: you know, basically like climate proof? And then and then yeah,

1056
01:01:55,680 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like, well, what, like, you know,

1057
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:01,880
Speaker 1: what are the like people will try to sort of

1058
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 1: argue like, well, okay, like a you know, four feet

1059
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 1: of sea level rise, I mean that still leaves like

1060
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 1: a lot of California and Florida left, you know, And

1061
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 1: I'm like, I just feel like that's thinking is so weird.

1062
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, I think for me because of the

1063
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 2: way I talk about it, like I talk about it

1064
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 2: as a justice issue, and I never really dig into

1065
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 2: like this is what happens at this level of warming

1066
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 2: or whatever, like you two kind of do as journalists.

1067
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 2: So I don't think people ask me those sorts of questions.

1068
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 2: They did used to ask me that before I became

1069
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 2: a public climate person, which was when I was basically

1070
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 2: just editing wonky reports on climate and people in my

1071
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 2: own life would like come to me and ask me

1072
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:43,479
Speaker 2: where should I move or whatever or like.

1073
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 1: Insider trading for climate.

1074
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 2: Yeah kind of right. And these were the same people

1075
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,120
Speaker 2: who like we talked about this on a previous show,

1076
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 2: but like thought I was hysterical until they read the

1077
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 2: Uninhabitable Earth and I was like, really, you don't trust me.

1078
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 2: But anyway, but yeah, I find that question to be

1079
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 2: like so obsolete at this point. And that's why this

1080
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 2: passage here made me so creeked out, David, because that

1081
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 2: person who had this conversation with you would never really

1082
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 2: talk to me, I don't think, and definitely wouldn't say

1083
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 2: that to me.

1084
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know you said. I don't know if

1085
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 3: you guys saw, but was it a senator or a

1086
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 3: congressman yesterday was talking about how like, well, we really

1087
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 3: need to think about the ninety seven to ninety nine

1088
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 3: percent of Americans who are going to survive coronavirus. It's like, whoa,

1089
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 3: I mean, this is like a public matter of public

1090
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 3: record of a public official. That's like absolutely horrifying. Yeah,

1091
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 3: And you know, on the other hand, there is a

1092
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 3: part of me that, as objectionable as it is on

1093
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 3: a moral basis, like I also understand it on a

1094
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 3: human level, you know. Like I mean, for instance, like

1095
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:56,040
Speaker 3: I'm I did leave New York City. I'm really uncomfortable

1096
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 3: in New York. Not because I thought like the hospitals

1097
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 3: are going to overrun, become overrun or anything like that,

1098
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 3: because I think the hospitals are going to be overrun everywhere,

1099
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 3: but there was something really oppressive about being in a

1100
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 3: small apartment with a toddler and feeling like all I

1101
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 3: had was this tiny amount of space to move around in.

1102
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 3: And so my wife and I, you know, rented a

1103
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 3: house on Long Island where we have at least a yard,

1104
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 3: and like, that's an exercise of privilege in the face

1105
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 3: of this coronavirus threat. It may not ultimately protect us,

1106
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 3: but it feels emotionally actually a lot better and more comfortable.

1107
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 3: And at the same time, I think I'm basically running

1108
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 3: away and that's an act of cowardice and also a

1109
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 3: bit of a you know, a decision that runs a

1110
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 3: little bit against the sort of response I have to

1111
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 3: people who ask about where they should move when they,

1112
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:55,200
Speaker 3: you know, to deal with climate change. So I'm sort

1113
01:04:55,240 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 3: of all mixed up about it. I think it is.

1114
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 3: I think it's hard to dismiss that impulse. I think

1115
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 3: we all probably have it at some level to protect

1116
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:06,919
Speaker 3: ourselves and the ones that we love, but we also

1117
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:10,720
Speaker 3: try to remember that, like, we can't let that impulse

1118
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 3: get in the way of our sense of shared free

1119
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 3: and responsibility towards one another.

1120
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, what were you supposed to do? Stay

1121
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 2: in the city, and like punch the virus in the face.

1122
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:28,440
Speaker 3: Like this fair point. But you know, I I know

1123
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 3: people who are like I'm I'm you know, I'm going

1124
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 3: shopping for my elderly neighbors. And you know, I know

1125
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 3: a lot of people who work on the you know,

1126
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:42,480
Speaker 3: they're not like, uh, they're not pulmonologists working in the ICU,

1127
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:46,400
Speaker 3: but who are working at various levels or various places

1128
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:48,280
Speaker 3: in the health system who are like, I'm not going

1129
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 3: to leave because I think I'm going to be called

1130
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:52,280
Speaker 3: into action here and I and I need to be

1131
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 3: there for that. And you know those people are you know,

1132
01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:04,160
Speaker 3: doing incredibly noble Also, I would say terrifying work. But

1133
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 3: that's on some level a more responsible choice than the

1134
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 3: choice that I'm making to like do my journalism remotely

1135
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 3: from a house for the yard.

1136
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I don't know.

1137
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 2: I think you know, in a situation like this, you

1138
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:20,960
Speaker 2: do what you have to do. And I wouldn't be

1139
01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 2: too hard on yourself or anyone else listening to this

1140
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 2: who decided to protect their family. So one of the

1141
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 2: things I'm finding interesting is the rise of eco fascism,

1142
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 2: both as a trend in real life. Like, Okay, I

1143
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 2: don't find that interesting. I find that fucking terrifying. But

1144
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 2: it does seem like we're finally starting to talk about

1145
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 2: it more explicitly in the Climate Conversation, which to me

1146
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 2: is actually encouraging. Yeah, there is a piece in The

1147
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 2: Breakthrough called the Coming Avocado Politics. There was another piece

1148
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 2: in The New York Times, White Supremacy Goes Green by

1149
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 2: Beth Gardner, And there was another one that's not specifically

1150
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 2: eco fascism, but it's about the migrants in Greece called

1151
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 2: the Vigilantes and Greece say No More to Migrants, And

1152
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 2: basically what they were talking about there is like, there's

1153
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:19,840
Speaker 2: been this steady stream of migrants coming from nations in distress,

1154
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 2: and the people there had at one point won a

1155
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 2: Nobel Peace Prize for how welcoming they had been to

1156
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 2: these migrants, and now they're basically becoming armed vigilantes, shooting

1157
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:37,320
Speaker 2: migrants on site and beating up anyone that they think

1158
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 2: has helped them. And it just goes to show how

1159
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 2: far empathy can be exhausted and yeah, kind of manipulated.

1160
01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:52,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems it seems probably like the paramount challenge

1161
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:58,240
Speaker 3: in the vertical realm. I'm going forward, Yeah, trying to

1162
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 3: secure whatever kind of humane politics or what tread of

1163
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 3: humane politics we can in the face of some of

1164
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:04,919
Speaker 3: this damage.

1165
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 1: I feel like it's the natural, like next step of

1166
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 1: like the guy at the panel saying, like, you know,

1167
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:15,240
Speaker 1: kind of being worried about how it's going to affect

1168
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 1: him personally, right like, as there fewer and fewer resources

1169
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:23,439
Speaker 1: and more people competing for them, you know, some people will,

1170
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:28,400
Speaker 1: like you know, kind of feel that higher calling to

1171
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 1: be good community members, and some people will will prioritize

1172
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 1: their own their own stuff. And I don't know, I

1173
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:41,919
Speaker 1: feel like America's entire history is about prioritizing individual success

1174
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 1: over everything else. So I I don't know, I don't

1175
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:50,759
Speaker 1: feel super positive about this country's approach on these things.

1176
01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:52,840
Speaker 3: There are very few countries in the world who are

1177
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 3: moving in the direction of more openness and empathy, and

1178
01:08:56,320 --> 01:09:00,800
Speaker 3: their countries who have been remarkably open and who are

1179
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:03,000
Speaker 3: becoming slightly less so, and still by the standards of

1180
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 3: America are good, but they're all moving in the wrong direction.

1181
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:11,280
Speaker 3: And you know, I think of it like there is

1182
01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:15,120
Speaker 3: this sort of the challenge to our politics produced by

1183
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 3: climate change, which is this challenge of like not just

1184
01:09:19,360 --> 01:09:21,720
Speaker 3: eco fascism, but stuff that's sort of short of that,

1185
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 3: but still like just eco nationalism. But there's also the

1186
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:33,479
Speaker 3: way in which this phenomenon complicates our crusade for action

1187
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:36,439
Speaker 3: on climate in the sense that not just like we

1188
01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 3: need a global solution to a global problem, we can't

1189
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:45,200
Speaker 3: really deal with so many so much resistance from nationalistic leaders,

1190
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:48,599
Speaker 3: but even beyond that, Like, I think it's been one

1191
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 3: of the basic assumptions of the climate movement in the

1192
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 3: US especially, but really throughout the world that if people

1193
01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:01,720
Speaker 3: saw the science, they would endorse action of the kind

1194
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 3: that I think the three of us would want to see. Yeah,

1195
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:09,439
Speaker 3: and the problem was that not enough people had seen

1196
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:13,320
Speaker 3: the science, or trusted the science, or had accurate picture

1197
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:16,840
Speaker 3: of the science, and that like, ultimately the challenge was

1198
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 3: communicating the threat so that they would then take these

1199
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:26,559
Speaker 3: inevitable political steps. But if it's the case that, as

1200
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:29,839
Speaker 3: with everything else in our culture, we're processing the challenge

1201
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:35,599
Speaker 3: of climate change through our tribal partisan identities, it starts

1202
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 3: to make it seem a lot harder to achieve anything

1203
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:42,719
Speaker 3: that's really meaningful, you know, that really moves the needle

1204
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:45,599
Speaker 3: meaningfully on climate policy, don't you think.

1205
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:49,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because that's kind of what Beth

1206
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:52,760
Speaker 2: Gardner got into. In her Peace on White Supremacy, goes

1207
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:55,160
Speaker 2: green about how surprised she was, like how she had

1208
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 2: always thought that once it was time for climate action,

1209
01:10:58,280 --> 01:11:03,760
Speaker 2: it would be progressive climate action surely, and so then

1210
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:07,640
Speaker 2: she's like coming awake to eco fascism and being like,

1211
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,200
Speaker 2: oh wait, maybe it's not maybe it could go in

1212
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:14,600
Speaker 2: this really really dark direction. And I gotta say, like,

1213
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 2: I I mean, I I did appreciate this article, but

1214
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 2: I find that frustrating that people would automatically think that

1215
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 2: action is going to be benevolent, because to me that

1216
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 2: just seems so obviously, like clearly it's not people are cruel.

1217
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I mean, Like.

1218
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:37,679
Speaker 2: It's not like once people found out slavery was wrong

1219
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:44,200
Speaker 2: and unsustainable, they went to an egalitarian society. Yes, I

1220
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:45,680
Speaker 2: don't know why we would expect that.

1221
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:48,160
Speaker 3: Well, it's you know, it's an argument against these sort

1222
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:51,840
Speaker 3: of concerntrol centrist concern rolls who will tell you like

1223
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:54,599
Speaker 3: what we need to do is like to depoliticize climate

1224
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:58,840
Speaker 3: or deepartisanized climate, and you're like, yeah, it's just it's

1225
01:11:58,880 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 3: like a war that we have to win.

1226
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's already political.

1227
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 3: Like if we retreat from that fight, like we're.

1228
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:07,919
Speaker 1: Just gonna lose it, right exactly.

1229
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:11,600
Speaker 3: I like, you know, I still think it's good to like,

1230
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:15,720
Speaker 3: you know, share the bad news. Yeah, I think it's

1231
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,160
Speaker 3: good to get more people to see the impacts than less.

1232
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 3: But you know, it's it's who knows, I don't know

1233
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:26,840
Speaker 3: how many more you know, Scott Morrison's and Jero Bolsonarow's

1234
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:28,599
Speaker 3: and Donald Trump's we can really.

1235
01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, don't all three of them have Corona at

1236
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:32,639
Speaker 2: this point.

1237
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:35,320
Speaker 1: I hope you boy, that would be a real mitzvah.

1238
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, sorry, but it's true.

1239
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 3: Looking at Donald Crum for like five years, thinking that

1240
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:46,439
Speaker 3: he wasn't possibly gonna make it out of that calendar year.

1241
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 1: You know, he's like the most unhealthy person, but somehow

1242
01:12:49,240 --> 01:12:51,680
Speaker 1: he just keeps going. Yeah.

1243
01:12:52,040 --> 01:13:00,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, runs on, runs on rage. Okay,

1244
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:03,559
Speaker 2: now we're going to get into our listener question. We're

1245
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:06,559
Speaker 2: just going to do one for this episode, and this

1246
01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:12,160
Speaker 2: question is about climate action. So she asked, what is

1247
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:14,759
Speaker 2: the best way to get involved and make a change.

1248
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:17,880
Speaker 2: How do you reach quote normal people who live in

1249
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:21,479
Speaker 2: this illusory world, that somehow government will fix it all,

1250
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:24,920
Speaker 2: that we need to trust the market and that advertising

1251
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:27,360
Speaker 2: is not making you want stuff you don't need or

1252
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:30,840
Speaker 2: change your social structure. Do you need to reach these people?

1253
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:33,559
Speaker 2: Can you take action that is visible that catches the

1254
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 2: eye of others and wants them to participate or do

1255
01:13:36,439 --> 01:13:39,680
Speaker 2: something similar? How do I muster the energy to do

1256
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:43,679
Speaker 2: any of that. I'm already exhausted working and doing the PhD.

1257
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:47,320
Speaker 2: I also have an ra so yeah, or maybe by

1258
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:50,040
Speaker 2: doing something I'll actually find the energy.

1259
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:54,519
Speaker 1: Do you want to give us your hot take David

1260
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 1: on what is the best way to get involved and

1261
01:13:58,040 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 1: make a change if, like, first someone who you know,

1262
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:04,479
Speaker 1: this person was sort of struggling with like should I

1263
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:07,280
Speaker 1: try to convince people that don't believe in climate change?

1264
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:09,479
Speaker 1: Or should I focus on this and you know whatever,

1265
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:13,320
Speaker 1: what's an effective way to spend your energy if you

1266
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 1: want to do something?

1267
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:16,200
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's sort of vague, but I would say,

1268
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 3: first of all, like the best path forward is to

1269
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:20,360
Speaker 3: try to push for a political change, and to the

1270
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 3: extent that you're trying to mobilize those around you to

1271
01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:27,720
Speaker 3: engage in the same project. It's actually kind of from

1272
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:32,880
Speaker 3: my point of view, a waste of energy to focus

1273
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 3: on people who don't believe or a skeptical and much

1274
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 3: more effective to try to push those people who are

1275
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:40,880
Speaker 3: aware of it and may be a little worried, but

1276
01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:45,800
Speaker 3: aren't quite worried enough to sort of really look in

1277
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:49,160
Speaker 3: that you know, really takes seriously the threat and what's

1278
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:52,479
Speaker 3: necessary and respond as the science demands. I think those

1279
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:55,040
Speaker 3: people are in my experience certainly. I mean, I use

1280
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:57,920
Speaker 3: I'm one of those people who in transition, I think

1281
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:01,040
Speaker 3: those people are much more movable than and those who

1282
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:06,120
Speaker 3: are sort of sitting in their hardened positions of reflective skepticism.

1283
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:09,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, I feel that way too, And I

1284
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:13,160
Speaker 1: just I always tell people that they should like do

1285
01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:16,120
Speaker 1: the things they're already good at and already have like

1286
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:18,559
Speaker 1: influence over you know what I mean. It's like there's

1287
01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:21,320
Speaker 1: no sense and you like, this person's doing a PhD

1288
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:24,080
Speaker 1: and whatever. It's like, like, you know, I don't think

1289
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:26,720
Speaker 1: that you need to go off and become like a

1290
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:32,479
Speaker 1: science expert or you know, local politician or whatever. It's like,

1291
01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 1: Do do the things that you have the skills to do,

1292
01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:38,640
Speaker 1: you know, and like influence the people that you can influence.

1293
01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:39,479
Speaker 3: You know.

1294
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:43,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a little frustrated because I have a piece

1295
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 2: coming out about this, and it was supposed to come

1296
01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:48,639
Speaker 2: out this week, but it got pushed back because of

1297
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:49,559
Speaker 2: of course Corona.

1298
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:54,040
Speaker 1: But to answer to this question, yes, yes.

1299
01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 2: But my general opinion on it is that there you're

1300
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:03,679
Speaker 2: not limited to just thing and that do what you're

1301
01:16:03,720 --> 01:16:07,280
Speaker 2: good at and do your best because climate is an

1302
01:16:07,320 --> 01:16:11,360
Speaker 2: all encompassing problem, so therefore all the solutions are all encompassing.

1303
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:14,759
Speaker 2: So you know, if you're good at making noise, make noise,

1304
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:17,920
Speaker 2: if you're good at writing right, if you're good at organizing,

1305
01:16:18,160 --> 01:16:21,280
Speaker 2: organized like, figure out where you can make the most impact,

1306
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:24,679
Speaker 2: and that's where you that's where you work, that's where

1307
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 2: you live. I also think that there's this sort of

1308
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:32,360
Speaker 2: like idea that someone like I think climate is like

1309
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:35,760
Speaker 2: this unprecedented problem and therefore no one else can tell

1310
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:38,200
Speaker 2: you exactly what your climate action needs to be.

1311
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:38,479
Speaker 1: Right.

1312
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:43,120
Speaker 2: Nobody told Greta to strike, you know, nobody told these

1313
01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:45,320
Speaker 2: kids to start forming their movement. They just did it,

1314
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:48,120
Speaker 2: and you don't. If you're going to be like a

1315
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:50,360
Speaker 2: climate person, then you've got to start to like take

1316
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:54,760
Speaker 2: on that sort of creative necessity to figure out what

1317
01:16:54,760 --> 01:17:03,320
Speaker 2: you're going to do. All right, So now we're going

1318
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:07,439
Speaker 2: to move into standout pieces, which are just something that

1319
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:10,360
Speaker 2: we loved from the past, like a couple of months

1320
01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:13,400
Speaker 2: or so. And as David as our guest, do you

1321
01:17:13,439 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 2: get to go first?

1322
01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:17,240
Speaker 3: Oh? I think it's a kind of a piece of

1323
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:21,839
Speaker 3: writing that is not exactly a piece. It's a Twitter

1324
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:27,120
Speaker 3: thread that was posted by Harvard scientist named Eric fi

1325
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:34,439
Speaker 3: Golding about coronavirus. It was really the first, the first

1326
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:39,679
Speaker 3: thing that broke through to me in this story as

1327
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:44,479
Speaker 3: a real powering, eye opening, like grab you by the

1328
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:55,240
Speaker 3: collar kind of writing. And he was basically representing findings

1329
01:17:55,240 --> 01:17:59,439
Speaker 3: from a pre publication paper on what had happened in Wuhan,

1330
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:03,760
Speaker 3: and in particular about the reproducibility or like the infectiousness

1331
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:09,320
Speaker 3: of the of the disease, which suggested some quite harrowing

1332
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 3: futures not just for China but for the rest of

1333
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:16,479
Speaker 3: the world. And you know, this was he was working

1334
01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:20,799
Speaker 3: off of scientific scientific papers. He was quoting from it throughout,

1335
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:23,600
Speaker 3: and so there was some technical language, but he was

1336
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:26,639
Speaker 3: also writing it through with a kind of like holy shit.

1337
01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:28,879
Speaker 3: I think he maybe even have said holy shit. Literally,

1338
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:33,959
Speaker 3: I've never seen numbers like this in all of my research.

1339
01:18:35,320 --> 01:18:40,080
Speaker 3: This disease is going to be a pandemic beyond anything

1340
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:43,960
Speaker 3: that we've seen in recent memory, and we are completely

1341
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:50,679
Speaker 3: unprepared for its impact. And in response, he was really

1342
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:52,360
Speaker 3: and this is the this is the thing that makes

1343
01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:53,720
Speaker 3: it really notable to me. I mean, I think it's

1344
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:56,040
Speaker 3: it was sort of interesting and vivid, and you know,

1345
01:18:56,080 --> 01:18:58,439
Speaker 3: got passed around a huge amount and raised some real

1346
01:18:58,479 --> 01:19:01,519
Speaker 3: alarm about it. But what was notable to me about

1347
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:05,640
Speaker 3: about it was that it immediately produced a really significant

1348
01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:12,360
Speaker 3: backlash among epidemiologists and other people who work with sort

1349
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:16,800
Speaker 3: of disease data who found some of his analysis, or

1350
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:20,000
Speaker 3: the extrapolation of the paper's analysis into sort of a

1351
01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:24,120
Speaker 3: Twitter format a little overstated, thought that his warnings were

1352
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:28,320
Speaker 3: a little too oblique. But even if their corrections were

1353
01:19:28,400 --> 01:19:33,400
Speaker 3: on the margins, their rebuke was sort of total, and

1354
01:19:33,439 --> 01:19:36,559
Speaker 3: they were saying, like, this is irresponsible, this kind of

1355
01:19:36,600 --> 01:19:39,800
Speaker 3: fear mongering on Twitter, on social media is not what

1356
01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:47,360
Speaker 3: a pedigreed, qualified scientists should be doing. And you know,

1357
01:19:47,400 --> 01:19:49,439
Speaker 3: there was a there was a big piece about it

1358
01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:51,760
Speaker 3: in the Atlantic that was headlined something like this is

1359
01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:56,719
Speaker 3: how misinformation spreads on Twitter. Feigalding like bleaded the tweet.

1360
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:59,920
Speaker 3: The Twitter thread actually like it only now exists in

1361
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:01,960
Speaker 3: a few places where it was preserved at the time

1362
01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:03,920
Speaker 3: to read, you know, not as a Twitter thread but

1363
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:10,000
Speaker 3: off Twitter. And you know, he didn't get everything right,

1364
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:16,640
Speaker 3: but as a correction to what had been the incredibly

1365
01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:22,120
Speaker 3: limited quiet coverage of the story to that point, and

1366
01:20:22,280 --> 01:20:24,800
Speaker 3: as a sort of like directional guide to like this

1367
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:27,400
Speaker 3: is basically how we should be thinking about this disease.

1368
01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 3: He's he was certainly more right than anybody else who

1369
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:37,840
Speaker 3: was writing at the time. And if he had been

1370
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:40,519
Speaker 3: if he had had the ear of say Donald Trump

1371
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:48,240
Speaker 3: or you know, Emmanuel mccron or whoever, or Baris Johnson,

1372
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:54,080
Speaker 3: we would be in a much, much much better place.

1373
01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:57,960
Speaker 3: And I think this is like it's obviously connected to

1374
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:01,639
Speaker 3: my experience as a sort of alarmists done climate change,

1375
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:04,360
Speaker 3: but I think just in general, we are in this

1376
01:21:04,439 --> 01:21:06,360
Speaker 3: really weird place where I think we've sort of like

1377
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:13,840
Speaker 3: overlearned the experience of like Churchill and England during a

1378
01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:17,240
Speaker 3: blitz and like keep calm and carry on, is like

1379
01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:23,160
Speaker 3: this like understood to be this in all situations noble

1380
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:29,679
Speaker 3: model for human behavior, and it just isn't like most

1381
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:33,599
Speaker 3: times in a crisis, you want to move fast and

1382
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 3: you want to move aggressively, and even if taking that

1383
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:41,120
Speaker 3: lesson to heart means that sometimes you respond to what

1384
01:21:41,160 --> 01:21:42,720
Speaker 3: you think is a crisis but turns out to be

1385
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:45,479
Speaker 3: a slightly smaller crisis or maybe even not a crisis

1386
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:48,120
Speaker 3: at all, Like that's just what it means to be

1387
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:53,519
Speaker 3: careful and responsible and in the case of impacts like

1388
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:57,160
Speaker 3: climate change and the coronavirus moral, because what's at stake

1389
01:21:57,439 --> 01:22:03,120
Speaker 3: is human life and human suffering at unbelievably large scales,

1390
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:09,240
Speaker 3: so that you know, even moderate improvements in how quickly

1391
01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:12,280
Speaker 3: we take action are going to have huge payoff, huge

1392
01:22:12,280 --> 01:22:17,160
Speaker 3: dividends down the line. And in this case in particular,

1393
01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:26,080
Speaker 3: it's like, what's the downside to panicking about this disease? Like, sure,

1394
01:22:26,080 --> 01:22:32,680
Speaker 3: it's imposing we might like anxiety, and you know, like

1395
01:22:32,720 --> 01:22:37,400
Speaker 3: psychological emotional burden on all of us to be living anxiously.

1396
01:22:37,880 --> 01:22:40,640
Speaker 3: And yet especially during the period when not just the

1397
01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:45,320
Speaker 3: American government but all the governments outside of outside of Asia,

1398
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:48,240
Speaker 3: we're not doing anything and not giving any directives about

1399
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:51,920
Speaker 3: how we should behave in collectively have been behaving much

1400
01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:55,840
Speaker 3: more responsibly. The more wary we were, because if we

1401
01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 3: were freaking out about coronavirus, we were going to be

1402
01:22:57,920 --> 01:23:00,000
Speaker 3: washing our hands more. We were going to be uncomfortable

1403
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:02,519
Speaker 3: standing around people. We were going to be uncomfortable if

1404
01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:06,960
Speaker 3: someone near us started coughing. And like, especially in the

1405
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:11,760
Speaker 3: vacuum of leadership that we saw, you know, like from

1406
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:16,000
Speaker 3: the from from Trump and on down in American government, theoretically,

1407
01:23:16,080 --> 01:23:17,960
Speaker 3: the only thing that would have made Americans made more

1408
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:21,760
Speaker 3: responsibly was more panic. And so the impulse to like

1409
01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:24,400
Speaker 3: wag our finger of people who are trying to raise

1410
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:27,240
Speaker 3: alarm simply because what they're saying is alarming, I think

1411
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:31,400
Speaker 3: is really a real kind of deep dysfunction about about

1412
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:34,080
Speaker 3: our culture generally. And we saw it. We saw it

1413
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:35,880
Speaker 3: in particular in this Twitter threat. I think we've seen

1414
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:39,320
Speaker 3: it generally in the Corona response, and we've been seeing

1415
01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:41,320
Speaker 3: it now, all three of us and probably all of

1416
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:46,200
Speaker 3: our listeners on climate for for decades. I also just

1417
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:48,080
Speaker 3: feel like really bad for this guy. He was like

1418
01:23:48,479 --> 01:23:51,280
Speaker 3: he sort of had a reputation like thrown in the toilet,

1419
01:23:51,680 --> 01:23:55,200
Speaker 3: and you know, like again like some of those numbers

1420
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:58,400
Speaker 3: turned out not to be exactly right, but like it was,

1421
01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:00,760
Speaker 3: it certainly is proving not to be the kind of

1422
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:04,200
Speaker 3: professional malpractice that he was attacked for. Yeah, and the

1423
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:07,160
Speaker 3: interness that people have can call any kind of anything

1424
01:24:07,160 --> 01:24:12,000
Speaker 3: that's scary irresponsible, I think is just it's just really damaging.

1425
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:15,479
Speaker 2: So my standout piece for you this week was published

1426
01:24:15,520 --> 01:24:19,360
Speaker 2: just yesterday. It's called Good Griefness by Emily Atkin in

1427
01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:22,559
Speaker 2: the Columbia Journalism Review, and I'm going to take the

1428
01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:28,160
Speaker 2: liberty of reading an excerpt now. Over the next two years,

1429
01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:31,719
Speaker 2: I fact checked dozens of instances of climate misinformation without

1430
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:36,000
Speaker 2: passing judgment on those who lied. I explained terrifying scientific

1431
01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:39,880
Speaker 2: studies without explicitly remarking that they were terrifying. I reported

1432
01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:43,639
Speaker 2: on environmental injustices perpetrated all over the country without saying

1433
01:24:43,680 --> 01:24:46,599
Speaker 2: that the victims deserved better. Even though I was writing

1434
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:49,599
Speaker 2: for a progressive readership, my goal was to appear neutral,

1435
01:24:50,080 --> 01:24:53,519
Speaker 2: but I was not actually neutral, because in reality, I

1436
01:24:53,560 --> 01:24:56,320
Speaker 2: didn't want climate change to get worse. I didn't want

1437
01:24:56,320 --> 01:24:59,439
Speaker 2: people to suffer. Every time I said I didn't say so,

1438
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:03,200
Speaker 2: I felt like I was failing readers. In twenty fourteen,

1439
01:25:03,360 --> 01:25:07,559
Speaker 2: I covered a world Meteorological Organization report showing that carbon

1440
01:25:07,640 --> 01:25:10,959
Speaker 2: was accumulating in the atmosphere far more rapidly than expected.

1441
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:14,639
Speaker 2: Once carbon concentrations reached a certain point, the report stated,

1442
01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:18,519
Speaker 2: the subsequent warning would trigger feedback loops of further carbon

1443
01:25:18,560 --> 01:25:22,280
Speaker 2: release and more warming, causing unpredictable levels of suffering for

1444
01:25:22,320 --> 01:25:26,280
Speaker 2: the world's poorest and most vulnerable populations. We must reverse

1445
01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:30,760
Speaker 2: this trend, the WMO's secretary said, we are running out

1446
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:33,839
Speaker 2: of time. It was difficult to hide my sense of alarm.

1447
01:25:34,439 --> 01:25:38,080
Speaker 2: I was also exasperated, a natural consequence, perhaps of reporting

1448
01:25:38,080 --> 01:25:40,439
Speaker 2: on the willful ignorance of those tasks with solving a

1449
01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:44,719
Speaker 2: looming environmental crisis. Instead of preparing for climate change, state

1450
01:25:44,760 --> 01:25:48,080
Speaker 2: agencies were removing scientific information about it from their websites.

1451
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:51,680
Speaker 2: Instead of trying to limit the damage, politicians were contriving

1452
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:55,160
Speaker 2: ridiculous excuses. Global warming couldn't be all that bad, one

1453
01:25:55,240 --> 01:25:59,559
Speaker 2: argument went, since Mars was warming too. Worst of all,

1454
01:26:00,160 --> 01:26:02,799
Speaker 2: didn't seem to be paying attention. I knew my stories

1455
01:26:02,800 --> 01:26:05,760
Speaker 2: were about important problems, but they were rarely picked up

1456
01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 2: by bigger outlets. My reporting never sparked activism campaigns or

1457
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:12,559
Speaker 2: changed policy. I felt like a child drowning in a

1458
01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:15,720
Speaker 2: crowded beach as everyone ignored my screams for help. Was

1459
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:21,000
Speaker 2: I not screaming loudly enough? So I love this story

1460
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:24,760
Speaker 2: of Emily's journey as a storyteller on climate and basically

1461
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:27,160
Speaker 2: how she went from like, wait a minute, it's not

1462
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:30,719
Speaker 2: enough to be neutral. It's not enough just to present

1463
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:34,160
Speaker 2: the facts without any sort of interpretation. And I think

1464
01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:36,120
Speaker 2: that speaks a lot to what you were just saying,

1465
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:40,040
Speaker 2: David about the Twitter thread, that you have to sound

1466
01:26:40,040 --> 01:26:42,479
Speaker 2: the alarm if the information is alarming, you have to

1467
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:46,160
Speaker 2: tell people that. Otherwise you're not actually being honest, you're

1468
01:26:46,200 --> 01:26:47,559
Speaker 2: not actually telling the story.

1469
01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:49,680
Speaker 1: That's so funny because it gets right back to what

1470
01:26:49,720 --> 01:26:51,840
Speaker 1: we were talking about at the beginning. It was like

1471
01:26:52,080 --> 01:26:55,200
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to walk that line between

1472
01:26:55,439 --> 01:26:59,400
Speaker 1: what's expected of you as a journalist and what you feel,

1473
01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:03,360
Speaker 1: don't know, sort of compelled to say once you know.

1474
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:07,880
Speaker 2: That yeah, and also as like a human being who

1475
01:27:07,920 --> 01:27:13,559
Speaker 2: has a vested interest in you know, living, so you know,

1476
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:15,600
Speaker 2: I think that's something to it. And she comes to

1477
01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:19,680
Speaker 2: in her conclusion basically being like I went from dispassionate

1478
01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:23,240
Speaker 2: to passionate, and I learned how to harness my grief

1479
01:27:23,320 --> 01:27:26,559
Speaker 2: into rage, and you know, I can't help but hear

1480
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:29,640
Speaker 2: the echoes of your rage essay last year, Amy, and

1481
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:33,160
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, it's just really great to

1482
01:27:33,160 --> 01:27:36,000
Speaker 2: see more people taking that voice on and like owning

1483
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:37,880
Speaker 2: their emotions and being honest about them.

1484
01:27:38,439 --> 01:27:40,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's been like a good change I think in

1485
01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:44,280
Speaker 1: the in the whole climate storytelling space in general, it's

1486
01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:48,080
Speaker 1: just people, I guess, like sort of feeling well, a

1487
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:51,040
Speaker 1: feeling okay, Like, I mean, there's a for a long time,

1488
01:27:51,080 --> 01:27:53,120
Speaker 1: there's been a rule and I think some people still

1489
01:27:53,120 --> 01:27:55,840
Speaker 1: abide by it of like you can't write, you know,

1490
01:27:56,080 --> 01:27:59,559
Speaker 1: a personal essay if you also report on the subject,

1491
01:27:59,760 --> 01:27:59,960
Speaker 1: you know.

1492
01:28:00,120 --> 01:28:00,280
Speaker 3: Like that.

1493
01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:03,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. Actually, like I sat on that rage essay for

1494
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:05,559
Speaker 1: a while for that reason because I was like, oh,

1495
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:08,320
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, but but I think, yeah,

1496
01:28:08,320 --> 01:28:12,120
Speaker 1: I don't know, we were starting to like allow journalists

1497
01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:14,760
Speaker 1: to have feelings, and I don't I don't think it's bad,

1498
01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:19,920
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's bad. Yeah, Okay. So mine

1499
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:22,720
Speaker 1: is from Rolling Stone, and I have to say that

1500
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:25,719
Speaker 1: I have noticed in the last few months that Rolling

1501
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:29,680
Speaker 1: Stone is really kind of killing it on climate. I

1502
01:28:29,720 --> 01:28:32,520
Speaker 1: think they've been doing a lot of really great reporting

1503
01:28:32,560 --> 01:28:37,120
Speaker 1: on the subject, pretty wide variety of things. You know,

1504
01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:42,880
Speaker 1: there was that great investigative piece on the you know,

1505
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:48,160
Speaker 1: cancer being caused by like much of the natural gas

1506
01:28:48,240 --> 01:28:51,800
Speaker 1: oil and gas industry in general, the radioactive story. It

1507
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:54,200
Speaker 1: was great. And then I don't know, I just I

1508
01:28:54,200 --> 01:28:56,880
Speaker 1: feel like almost every week or two I'm seeing a

1509
01:28:56,920 --> 01:28:58,960
Speaker 1: different story from them pop up.

1510
01:29:00,000 --> 01:29:02,599
Speaker 3: We've been great, Yeah, right, I.

1511
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:04,880
Speaker 1: Know, I'm kind of like, who did they hire over

1512
01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:10,240
Speaker 1: there that's commissioning all these great stories? But anyways, so

1513
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:14,719
Speaker 1: this one is called are we Thinking about Climate Migration

1514
01:29:14,920 --> 01:29:18,920
Speaker 1: All Wrong? And it's by Alexandra Tempest, and it's really

1515
01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:22,439
Speaker 1: interesting because it gets into you know, these massive numbers

1516
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:26,720
Speaker 1: that we've all heard about climate migration and how you know,

1517
01:29:27,080 --> 01:29:31,280
Speaker 1: expansive and intense it's going to be and all of that,

1518
01:29:31,360 --> 01:29:35,120
Speaker 1: and it kind of, you know, calls those numbers into

1519
01:29:35,200 --> 01:29:38,200
Speaker 1: question a bit. And initially I was kind of like, well,

1520
01:29:38,560 --> 01:29:41,559
Speaker 1: what harm is there in overestimating the problem, right, But

1521
01:29:41,680 --> 01:29:45,240
Speaker 1: then she makes this pretty interesting point that it can

1522
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:49,680
Speaker 1: actually spark almost more of a of this sort of

1523
01:29:49,840 --> 01:29:54,439
Speaker 1: you know, ego fascist like anti immigration sentiment that we

1524
01:29:54,439 --> 01:29:59,200
Speaker 1: were talking about before. So anyway, here is a here's

1525
01:29:59,479 --> 01:30:06,360
Speaker 1: the excerpt from that. To be sure, the scale of

1526
01:30:06,360 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 1: the issue is planetary. People are right now leaving their

1527
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:12,920
Speaker 1: homes due to the impacts of climate change, from tiny

1528
01:30:12,960 --> 01:30:16,719
Speaker 1: Pacific island nations like your Body and Tuvalu to pancake

1529
01:30:16,760 --> 01:30:20,080
Speaker 1: flat Bangladesh to the coast of Louisiana, which loses a

1530
01:30:20,120 --> 01:30:22,519
Speaker 1: football field of land every one hundred minutes.

1531
01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:23,000
Speaker 3: Wow.

1532
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:27,880
Speaker 1: Climate displacement is headline news virtually every time another record

1533
01:30:27,880 --> 01:30:31,320
Speaker 1: breaking hurricane makes landfall, as when nearly four hundred thousand

1534
01:30:31,360 --> 01:30:33,960
Speaker 1: Puerto Ricans came to the US mainland in the months

1535
01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:38,559
Speaker 1: following twenty seventeen's Hurricane Maria. During the summer of twenty nineteen,

1536
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:42,000
Speaker 1: a flurry of reports circulated about drought stricken Honduran and

1537
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:46,519
Speaker 1: Guatemalan coffee farmers fleeing north. But the hyper focus by

1538
01:30:46,520 --> 01:30:49,400
Speaker 1: the media and well meaning advocates on nailing down a

1539
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:52,960
Speaker 1: global number of climate refugees by a specific calendar year

1540
01:30:53,200 --> 01:30:57,759
Speaker 1: can be problematic, conjuring images of apocalyptic invasions and fanning

1541
01:30:57,800 --> 01:31:01,920
Speaker 1: the flames of nationalism and xenophobia already spreading across the globe.

1542
01:31:02,320 --> 01:31:05,160
Speaker 1: And while these splashy predictions have a shock value that

1543
01:31:05,280 --> 01:31:09,479
Speaker 1: can galvanize action. They ignore nuances that could better serve

1544
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:12,879
Speaker 1: public discussion and policy, like the fact that the majority

1545
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:16,519
Speaker 1: of climate migrants move within their own countries, often slowly

1546
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:20,880
Speaker 1: over time, and usually not very far. Advocates, academics, and

1547
01:31:20,920 --> 01:31:24,400
Speaker 1: international bodies alike agree that most climate migrants move within

1548
01:31:24,439 --> 01:31:27,280
Speaker 1: their own countries. There are well known US examples, the

1549
01:31:27,320 --> 01:31:31,679
Speaker 1: coastal Louisianans term the first American climate refugees fleeing rising seas,

1550
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:37,120
Speaker 1: the indigenous Alaskan villages seeking funding to relocate inland. But

1551
01:31:37,240 --> 01:31:40,200
Speaker 1: this phenomenon is unfolding in every corner of the US

1552
01:31:40,280 --> 01:31:43,599
Speaker 1: and around the world. Tourist towns in southern California are

1553
01:31:43,640 --> 01:31:48,280
Speaker 1: contentiously battling over quote managed retreat from the coast due

1554
01:31:48,280 --> 01:31:52,120
Speaker 1: to rising sea levels. In Ellicott City, Maryland, a proposal

1555
01:31:52,160 --> 01:31:55,320
Speaker 1: to move its main street, including homes due to increased

1556
01:31:55,400 --> 01:31:59,880
Speaker 1: flash nearly destroyed the community. In North Carolina, low End

1557
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:02,800
Speaker 1: Become residents have been pushed from their homes as flood

1558
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:06,960
Speaker 1: and hurricane damaged public housing is demolished. And it's not

1559
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:10,400
Speaker 1: only a coastal concern. The tiny Missouri hamlet of Moseby

1560
01:32:10,560 --> 01:32:13,799
Speaker 1: is expected to lose half of its residents following massive

1561
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:17,759
Speaker 1: flooding in the spring of twenty nineteen in Wisconsin's rural

1562
01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:21,360
Speaker 1: Kickapoo Valley, which pioneered the modern template of government funded

1563
01:32:21,439 --> 01:32:25,439
Speaker 1: community relocation. A string of small towns has since moved

1564
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:29,320
Speaker 1: entire neighborhoods to higher ground as river floods continued to

1565
01:32:29,360 --> 01:32:33,759
Speaker 1: break records. So anyway, this was I thought a really

1566
01:32:33,800 --> 01:32:37,400
Speaker 1: interesting and well researched story and sort of a counterintuitive

1567
01:32:37,439 --> 01:32:41,479
Speaker 1: take on the climate migration stuff that you know. I

1568
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:43,879
Speaker 1: like those kind of stories, so I liked it.

1569
01:32:44,560 --> 01:32:48,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, uh yeah, I enjoyed this story too, especially because

1570
01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:51,280
Speaker 2: it was a good reminder about how we talk about

1571
01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:55,839
Speaker 2: things really really matters, and it can fall differently depending

1572
01:32:55,880 --> 01:32:58,040
Speaker 2: on what the listener already wants to hear.

1573
01:32:58,400 --> 01:33:02,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally, totally all right, David, thank you so

1574
01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:03,920
Speaker 1: much for taking the time.

1575
01:33:04,120 --> 01:33:06,519
Speaker 3: Okay, cool. Thanks. Its really great to talk about you guys,

1576
01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:08,080
Speaker 3: and hope to see you Upton.

1577
01:33:08,360 --> 01:33:09,400
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, David.

1578
01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:34,240
Speaker 1: Okay, that's it for this time. I hope you enjoyed

1579
01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:37,840
Speaker 1: that episode of Hot Take. You can find Hot Take

1580
01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:40,880
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure to subscribe so

1581
01:33:40,960 --> 01:33:44,360
Speaker 1: that you won't miss any future episodes. We'll be talking

1582
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:46,800
Speaker 1: to Eric Holdhouse on our next one, and as far

1583
01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:49,679
Speaker 1: as drill goes, look for an episode on the finance

1584
01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:53,400
Speaker 1: situation later this week. Thanks for listening and we'll see

1585
01:33:53,400 --> 01:33:53,960
Speaker 1: you next time.

1586
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:00,040
Speaker 2: A