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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and billionaire Ray Dallio says the US

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Speaker 1: is turning into an autocratic state. We have such a

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Speaker 1: great show for you today, Think like an economist. Justin

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Speaker 1: Wolfer stops by to talk about the latest in Trump's tarafors.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to doctor Abdul l said about his

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Speaker 1: run for the Senate in Michigan. But first, here are

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Speaker 1: the stories the media is missing.

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Speaker 2: Savali.

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Speaker 3: There was hundreds of workers over billionaires Labor Day rallies,

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Speaker 3: and you know what, that is music to my ears

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Speaker 3: because that's what I think the movement should be built on.

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Speaker 1: Again another case of massive protests not covered by the

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Speaker 1: mainstream media. We keep seeing this again and again, massive protests,

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Speaker 1: town halls, filled with angry people, horrible polling for Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: and we don't see it in the mainstream media. We

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Speaker 1: don't see any of those stories reflect in the mainstream media.

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Speaker 1: Now there's a question whether or not there's some anxiety

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Speaker 1: about reporting some of this stuff, like maybe it's hard

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Speaker 1: to track down, but like people standing in the middle

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Speaker 1: of their towns waving signs that should not be so

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Speaker 1: hard to cover Labor Day's day about labor or in

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Speaker 1: and what better place to focus on during that day

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Speaker 1: than Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson, who has been really catapulted

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Speaker 1: into the national spotlight because of Trump's use of ice

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Speaker 1: in the city and now the city again is in

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Speaker 1: Trump's crosshairs because he wants to federalize it. He denounced

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Speaker 1: Trump's threat to deploy federal troops to the city as

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Speaker 1: part of an immigration crepdown. He said, no federal troops

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Speaker 1: in the city of Chicago. At the workers over Billionaire's

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Speaker 1: demonstration in Chicago's Westloop, Johnson added, We're going to defend

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Speaker 1: our democracy. We're going to protect the humanity of every

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Speaker 1: single person in the city of Chicago. Go Over the weekend,

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Speaker 1: I interviewed kat Abba Guzala, and she's running for a

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Speaker 1: seat in Chicago, and she talked about just how aggressive

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Speaker 1: ice has gotten in their city. As someone who lives

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Speaker 1: in a city New York City, haven't seen that but

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Speaker 1: in New York, and so my hope is that he's

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Speaker 1: not doing it in New York. But I do have

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Speaker 1: a sense that they're trying to do it in all

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Speaker 1: of the Blue cities to make us all really scared

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Speaker 1: and uncomfortable, and also to her people, and also to

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Speaker 1: deport people who've been in this country for years and

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Speaker 1: years and years. Look, this is going to be the

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Speaker 1: beginning of a lot of protests. People are not happy.

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Speaker 1: And these demonstrations took place in New York, Houston, Washington,

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles, Cleveland, Ohio, Greensboro. When people are mad, they protest.

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Speaker 1: We saw this in Trump's first administration. We're going to

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Speaker 1: see this again.

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Speaker 3: So by Trump is really really losing a court this week.

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Speaker 3: A judge ruled this morning that Trump illegally deployed National

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Speaker 3: guardens to Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Posse comma Tatis Act. Look is this was always

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Speaker 1: the thing. The law, like with so many things Trump

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Speaker 1: is trying to do, the law says you can't do

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Speaker 1: this stuff. And here we have a US District Court

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Speaker 1: Judge Charles Bryer in San Francisco, fifty two page filing.

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Speaker 1: So not lightly. In short, defendants violated the Posse Commatatis Act.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, all of the Supreme Court experts

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Speaker 1: we talked to said the very same thing. Sending troops

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Speaker 1: on the ground is a violation of an act which

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Speaker 1: says we don't use troops on our people. This is

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Speaker 1: the difference between a free country and a military dictatorship.

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Speaker 1: Now again we get to a moment, as with many

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Speaker 1: moments in this political moment, where Trump now it's illegal,

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Speaker 1: they can't do it. That doesn't mean they won't. And

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Speaker 1: that is where we are right now. Again, in a

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Speaker 1: world with a Supreme Court that wasn't completely in the tank,

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Speaker 1: you would say, well, the Supreme Court is not going

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Speaker 1: to allow this. But because they made Donald Trump mango

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Speaker 1: god king with the immunity ruling, we really don't know

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Speaker 1: what's going to happen. But we do know, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's important for us to remember that there is

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Speaker 1: the law and this administration pretty much breaks it on

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Speaker 1: the regular And maybe that's okay for now, but at

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Speaker 1: some point the bill will come to and the American

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Speaker 1: people will decide are we a lawless country where we

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Speaker 1: allow people to break the law or are we not?

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Speaker 1: And I think ultimately, and I don't know when this happens,

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Speaker 1: if it's two years or five years, or fifteen years

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Speaker 1: or twenty years, but at some point, it's a big country.

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Speaker 1: It's been a democracy for a long time, and at

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Speaker 1: some point we're going to have to have a reconciliation

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Speaker 1: here about what it means to follow the law. I

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Speaker 1: don't know when that happens. So this is more legal

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Speaker 1: challenges I'm sure the Trump administration, and we'll run it

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Speaker 1: up to the Supreme Court. And again, at some point

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court is going to stop rubber stamping things.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe they're not, and maybe you know, they just

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Speaker 1: like the Republicans in Congress, become completely irrelevant.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds right. So Trump also, many people missed this.

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Speaker 3: On Friday, right before the holiday weekend, court struck down

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Speaker 3: his tariffs and boy they are as the kids say,

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Speaker 3: big Matt.

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Speaker 1: So the tariffs are allowed to be in place for

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Speaker 1: forty five more days. But there's a great Peter Navarro quote, America.

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Speaker 1: It's the end of America. So we have the highest

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Speaker 1: tariffs of any developed nation. We are alienating China, Russia,

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Speaker 1: those would be the ones that you kind of want

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Speaker 1: to alienate, but driving into their arms India and Canada

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Speaker 1: and Mexico and Europe, and basically we are becoming parias

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Speaker 1: in the world. And this may not even be legal.

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Speaker 1: In fact, it probably isn't legal. In fact, the Emergency

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Speaker 1: Powers Act that Trump is using does not once use

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Speaker 1: the word tariffs, which is kind of something to think about.

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Speaker 1: So look this again, like with all of these other

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Speaker 1: court cases, will likely go to the Supreme Court. I

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Speaker 1: just want to specify one thing about this, and I

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Speaker 1: think I've talked about it before, but the other side

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Speaker 1: of this case, simplify, is the Koch brother I think

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Speaker 1: we talked this about this on the last episode. Actually

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Speaker 1: the Koch brother and a lot of really evil Republican donors.

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Speaker 1: So this is a case where if the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: will have to decide whether or not they're going to

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Speaker 1: go against Leonard Leo. I think Leonard Leo is involved

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Speaker 1: in this. Are they going to go against their donors

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Speaker 1: or their god king. You know, it's a very difficult

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Speaker 1: decision for them, and I personally look forward to them

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Speaker 1: really struggling with this. But you know, the rich Republican

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Speaker 1: donors don't want tariffs and rich insane president does. So

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Speaker 1: you know, it's anybody's guess how this goes. By the way,

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Speaker 1: I just want to play the tape for a minute.

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Speaker 1: Say the Supreme Court is like, no, you have no

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Speaker 1: legal powers for tariffs. They have to come off Okay,

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Speaker 1: say that happens, which I think is the best case

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Speaker 1: scenario for all of us. Even if they do that,

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Speaker 1: even if they're like, okay, the Supreme Court, and then

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Speaker 1: you have to assume that the Trump administration is going

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Speaker 1: to be like, oh guy, the Supreme Court is right,

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Speaker 1: let's not do the tariffs, which again we have never

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Speaker 1: seen Trump world ever. I mean, they might back down,

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Speaker 1: but it's hard for me to imagine they back down

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Speaker 1: on this. But even if those two things happened, which

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Speaker 1: would be kind of extraordinary, you would still have the

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Speaker 1: question of lowering the rates of things. And I'm not convinced,

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Speaker 1: like this is the problem with trade wars. Things get

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Speaker 1: more and more expensive. I'm not convinced that things get

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Speaker 1: cheaper when the trade war is over.

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Speaker 3: I've not heard a single person say how that.

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Speaker 1: Could happen, And in fact, we've interviewed people who have

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Speaker 1: said that it's very hard to get prices down after

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Speaker 1: a trade war. So I do see a real world

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Speaker 1: in which Trump cooks us up into something real bad,

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Speaker 1: changes his mind at the last minute because he sees

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Speaker 1: the wreckage that it's caused, and then is unable to reverse.

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Speaker 3: It always makes me think of that meme that's like

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Speaker 3: the I do something stupid, I convince my followers it's good.

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Speaker 2: I reverse my decision.

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Speaker 3: I convince my followers that everything is solved, and then

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Speaker 3: it just repeats over.

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Speaker 2: Yeah and over and over.

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Speaker 1: Probably fine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that saysn't sound like decline to me.

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Speaker 1: No, In case you're wondering, decline is a choice.

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Speaker 2: And a woke construct anyway.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so, speaking of woke constructs, the Energy Department has

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Speaker 3: a climate report and you'll be shocked to hear it

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Speaker 3: has nothing but errors. It is totally just done very lazily,

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Speaker 3: probably in between jokes about really really stupid things that

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Speaker 3: are the Republicans discuss.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're going to be shocked to hear that

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Speaker 1: this crew is bad at things pretty much everything. So

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Speaker 1: this is not our best and our brightest. This is

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Speaker 1: our dumbest and our worst. And they are publishing things

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Speaker 1: like they had a climate report and it is filled

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Speaker 1: with errors, and you know, look, this is all you know,

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Speaker 1: these people don't understand science, and they are making a

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Speaker 1: gamble that climate change won't create that it's some kind

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Speaker 1: of liberal fallacy, and that's not how it is, and

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Speaker 1: there are lots and lots of scientists who know the truth.

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Speaker 1: I think it's worth realizing, like, this is a war

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Speaker 1: on elites, this is a war on expertise, This is

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Speaker 1: a war on science, This is a war on education

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Speaker 1: and all of the kind of things that we hold dearest.

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Speaker 1: That's why they are against science and against progress and

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Speaker 1: against all the things you know that we cherish and

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Speaker 1: believe to be true. This is going to all end

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Speaker 1: in tears, all right. Justin Wolfers is the host of

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Speaker 1: The Thing Like an Economist podcast and a professor at

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Speaker 1: the University of Michigan. Justin Wolfers, Welcome to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 4: And Fast Economics malade.

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Speaker 1: So I want you to talk us through tariffs. I

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Speaker 1: was told that trade wars are good and easy to win.

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Speaker 1: We now have the highest tariffs of any developed country

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Speaker 1: right in the world.

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Speaker 4: And it's not even close. And so, Molly, your question

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Speaker 4: actually gets to the foundational mistake at the base of

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Speaker 4: all of this. When Trump was growing up, other countries

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Speaker 4: had high tariffs. So when Trump was growing up, he

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Speaker 4: felt we were being screwed, and in some sense we were.

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Speaker 4: When other countries divert their trade away from US, that

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Speaker 4: hurts them, but it also hurts American exporters. Subsequently, happened

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Speaker 4: was many decades, and during those decades, basically the entire

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Speaker 4: industrialized world got rid of tariffs. Now, when I say

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Speaker 4: got rid of tariffs, I should say there's politics and everything.

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Speaker 4: And so there's an intellectual sense shared by shared never

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Speaker 4: industrialized country that openness to trade is a good thing.

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Speaker 4: If you can help me and I can help you,

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Speaker 4: well you can both be better off. Simple as that.

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Speaker 4: So we had a general agreement on trade and tariffs,

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Speaker 4: and then we had a World Trade Organization. We had

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Speaker 4: Europe become a trading block, we had North America become

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Speaker 4: a trading block. We had countries individually just decide that

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Speaker 4: charging Americans more to support dying industries is not a

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Speaker 4: good idea, and they did that in other countries too,

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Speaker 4: And so what happened was we basically had universal agreement

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Speaker 4: that tariffs should be low and close to zero. And

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Speaker 4: then there was an asterisk, which is what happens is

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Speaker 4: when you get in the room with someone with another

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Speaker 4: foreign leader and say, hey, I want to cut my

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Speaker 4: tariffs that it'll be even better if you do yours too,

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Speaker 4: They'll say I agree, but I got a couple of

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Speaker 4: politically difficult industries in my home country. So let's like

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Speaker 4: eliminate tariffs everywhere we can, but there'll be a small

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Speaker 4: number of industries like the Canadian dairy industry, the American farmers,

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Speaker 4: the European mountains of butter where the politics are just

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Speaker 4: too hard. So let's agree we'll get tariffs down to

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Speaker 4: as close to zero as we can everywhere. But I'll

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Speaker 4: give you a bunch of political carve outs so you

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Speaker 4: can get re elected, and you'll give me a bunch

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Speaker 4: so I can get re elected. What that means is,

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Speaker 4: on the eve of the Trump trade war, the average

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Speaker 4: tariff right for every industrialized nation was between one and

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Speaker 4: two percent. And there are a few crazy countries that

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Speaker 4: have poorer countries that are small and run by idiosyncratic leaders.

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Speaker 4: There's some euphemism there. Autocrats tend to like tariffs, so

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Speaker 4: there are a few countries that do have tariffs. But

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Speaker 4: even outside of the industrialized countries, tariffs had their day thereover.

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Speaker 4: The reason this is central is it the most we

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Speaker 4: could ever have won out of the trade will if

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Speaker 4: initially tariffs were two percent and the lowest they can

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Speaker 4: go as zero percent. The most we could ever win

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Speaker 4: is very very little, and in fact, getting that very

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Speaker 4: very little, he's going to be hotted in it's worth

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Speaker 4: because these the industries where other countries have strong political interests,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't really matter we fight a trade. When we lose,

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Speaker 4: American consumers are screwed or we win, are not much changes.

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Speaker 4: It was asymmetric from the very beginning.

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Speaker 1: So that I think is a really good point. And

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Speaker 1: let's talk about asymmetric from the really big from the

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Speaker 1: very beginning. I would love you to talk about because

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Speaker 1: I feel like I haven't seen a ton of reporting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen some reporting on this, but it

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Speaker 1: hasn't I feel like it hasn't captured those guys the

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Speaker 1: way it needs to, probably, which is what is happening

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Speaker 1: with India and tariffs, because it strikes me that what

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Speaker 1: happened here is that Trump got mad at India. The

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Speaker 1: excuse we heard was that they were buying Russian oil.

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Speaker 1: I did know there was a sort of scam going

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Speaker 1: where they were buying Russian oil, processing it and then

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Speaker 1: selling it so that Russia could get around some of

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Speaker 1: the terraffing, etc. But whatever happened now the net net

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Speaker 1: is we had pictures of Mody with g and also putin,

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Speaker 1: which strikes me as probably not the ideal situation.

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Speaker 4: I mean, one thing is men don't hug in public enough.

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Speaker 4: And I thought they were showing tremendous leadership, tremendous and

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Speaker 4: just a whole new masculinity.

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Speaker 1: And if we mention we want our autocrats soft and fuzzy.

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Speaker 4: We want all our men to be comfortable cuddling in public.

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Speaker 4: What I would like is, if we get a foreign

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Speaker 4: policy right, I want our cuddler over there, I would love.

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Speaker 4: I think President Trump doesn't cuddle enough in public either.

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Speaker 4: He does a whole lot of extraordinarily camp things, right,

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Speaker 4: but not Hugen dancing to Ymca. I'm just talking about camp.

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Speaker 4: I'm talking about just a modern, comfortable masculinity.

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Speaker 1: So our tariffs suppose, here's my question. Our tariff supposed

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Speaker 1: to drive business to other countries in a way that

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Speaker 1: cuts us out of the international world order? Is that

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Speaker 1: how it's supposed.

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Speaker 4: To go on? Now, Well, if you were asking me,

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Speaker 4: if America disengaged from the rest of the world, would

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Speaker 4: other people go looking for friends elsewhere? It seems blindingly

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Speaker 4: obvious the answer is yes.

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Speaker 1: Does, doesn't it.

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Speaker 4: And so as a matter of foreign policy, maybe our

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Speaker 4: tariffs on China hurt the Chinese people. But the fact

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Speaker 4: that we have punitive tariffs, without direction, without predictability, that

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Speaker 4: not only are they punitive, I think people really really

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Speaker 4: misunderstand or fail to see the president comedy and he's

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Speaker 4: a very funny man, actually has very real consequences. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: my brother lives in Canada. They hate us.

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Speaker 1: Just talking about my brother, I mean no, no, they

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Speaker 1: hate us. They hate us, and we have really really

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Speaker 1: alienated Canada and Mexico, like real these shocking and also

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Speaker 1: their economy is already suffering. This gets me to this

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Speaker 1: next question I have for you, which is, we have

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Speaker 1: these tariffs, right, and we have this situation where the

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Speaker 1: market seems to not have priced in tariffs because they

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Speaker 1: think they're getting a rate cut and the rate cut

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Speaker 1: is enough to boost the market, and so who cares

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Speaker 1: about tariffs? But it strikes me that all is still

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Speaker 1: not fine in the American economy, and that the fact

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Speaker 1: that stocks are going up while all these other indicators

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Speaker 1: are not and are in fact going in the other direction.

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Speaker 1: And then we have this and I'd love you to

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Speaker 1: explain to us what is happening with the bond market too,

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Speaker 1: because that seems a bit scary and important.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So it's actually, I think, a very complicated story, but

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Speaker 4: I think you're right to raise it because at one level, frankly,

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Speaker 4: it is embarrassing for liberals. We say the sky is falling,

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Speaker 4: this is very bad economic policy, yet people want to

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Speaker 4: buy more of American stocks. So I just want to

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Speaker 4: sort of slow down and work our way through it

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Speaker 4: a little. The first thing is, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 4: going to go all the stock markets, not the economy

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Speaker 4: on you. I am, but actually what we should read

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Speaker 4: from stocks is interesting and subtle. So I'm not going

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Speaker 4: to be one of these people that says ignore the market.

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Speaker 4: What I'm going to say is listen, but didn't do

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Speaker 4: so in a sophisticated way. So the one thing that's

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Speaker 4: utterly absolutely true, we are on an unbeaten run that

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Speaker 4: every time Trump leans into trump Ism, imposing more tariffs,

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Speaker 4: firing the BLS Commission, and putting fed independence at risk.

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Speaker 4: Every time he leans into trump Ism, stocks fall. It's

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Speaker 4: literally unbeaten. Since January twentieth, there's not a single day

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Speaker 4: where it's gone the other way. Every time Trump backs

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Speaker 4: off from trump Ism, stocks rise when he suspends tariffs,

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Speaker 4: when he tells the Chinese that we don't need to

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Speaker 4: cut off all trade, and on and on it goes

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Speaker 4: when the courts rule Trump's tariffs to be illegal every

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Speaker 4: single time. So what that tells you is the market's

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Speaker 4: judgment is the value of American businesses are lower when

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Speaker 4: the president's instincts are followed. I think the market's worth

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Speaker 4: following on this. Why is that Because we're talking about

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Speaker 4: something like tariff's. If there are benefits for the American economy,

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Speaker 4: they're all downstream of helping American business, and so if

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Speaker 4: they don't even help American business, there's no way we

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Speaker 4: get any of the benefits. And that happens before we

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Speaker 4: even get to the argument to the benefits to American

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Speaker 4: business exceed the cost to American consumers, and so what

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Speaker 4: we do it's a very very shortcut argument. Normally in

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Speaker 4: economics we have to think about all the benefits and

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Speaker 4: all the costs, and here I can just say, hey, look,

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Speaker 4: the market seems to think the guys who are meant

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Speaker 4: to benefit actually have the opposite effect. That's an unbeaten run. Okay,

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Speaker 4: But how do we then sort out. So that's true.

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Speaker 4: Yet at the same time stocks have continued to rise.

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Speaker 4: What's going on here? A little bit of it is,

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Speaker 4: there's two Americas. There's an AI boom, which is seven

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Speaker 4: big companies that are worth an enormous share of the

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Speaker 4: S and P five hundred, and if you look at

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Speaker 4: the rest of the companies, you're seeing less optimism. That

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Speaker 4: are you still seeing some The other thing worth noting

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Speaker 4: is that Trump passed an enormous corporate tax code. Now

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Speaker 4: that corporate tax cup means any money big American businesses

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Speaker 4: get make, they get to keep more of it, a

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Speaker 4: lot more of it. That should have sent stocks to

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Speaker 4: the moon. It didn't. Actually, the amount it should have

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Speaker 4: boosted stocks is much larger than the amount of stocks

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Speaker 4: have risen. Basically, the federal government's just given them a

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Speaker 4: whole bunch more money back. Of course they're worth more.

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Speaker 4: We can try and think about in a fairly careful

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Speaker 4: way how much more, And it turns out their value

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Speaker 4: hasn't even risen that much.

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Speaker 1: So talk to us about the bond market. What's happening there.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to do one more thing on the stock market,

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Speaker 4: partly because I'm not sure what's going on in the

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Speaker 4: bond market. I'm not sure what's on your main money.

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Speaker 1: Here's because of the difference between the law term and

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Speaker 1: the short I understand.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I want to say one more thing on the

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Speaker 4: stock market. Okay, stock market is big American companies. So

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Speaker 4: it's not small companies. It's not cart ups, it's not

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Speaker 4: you and I, it's not the government sector, it's not

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Speaker 4: lots of things. As we move to a trumpest form

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Speaker 4: of statism or crony capitalism or interventionist, whatever it is

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Speaker 4: you want to call it, the folks who can look

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Speaker 4: for carveouts, Tim Apple can call the White House and

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Speaker 4: say I want tariffs to be different. Now, it turns

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Speaker 4: out Apple was founded in the garage by two guys

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Speaker 4: in Silicon Valley. Right now, there are two guys in

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Speaker 4: a garage in Silicon Valley trying to start the next

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Speaker 4: multi trillion dollar business. Those guys can't call the White House.

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Speaker 4: So what this is is an enormous preference for existing

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Speaker 4: large companies over smaller startups. Now the cost of crony

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Speaker 4: capital So the thing is who gains from crony capitalism,

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Speaker 4: the cronies, who loses everyone else, particularly entrepreneurs are the cronies.

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Speaker 4: They're the big ones who are in Trump's rolyodics. He

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Speaker 4: knows how to call and they'll pony up. It's CBS,

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Speaker 4: for instance, it's it is Apple, and on and on

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Speaker 4: it goes. So as we shift towards this form of capitalism,

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Speaker 4: the value of big companies can rise even as the

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Speaker 4: value of the rest of the economy falls. The stock

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Speaker 4: market only reflects the.

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Speaker 1: Former yields yond yields, right, So.

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Speaker 4: What's going on with bond yields? So here's the problem.

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Speaker 4: When you attack the FED and you say, what I

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Speaker 4: want to do is put a lunatic in, and I

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Speaker 4: want the lunatic to always and everywhere move interest rates

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Speaker 4: to be low. And I want to do that because

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Speaker 4: I'm a property developer, or because they want to move

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Speaker 4: to what's called fiscal dominance. That's the word for the day,

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Speaker 4: fiscal dominance. Fiscal dominance is when monetary policy is set

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Speaker 4: not in trying to smooth the ups and down to

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Speaker 4: the economy, but instead to keep interest rates low so

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Speaker 4: that the government interest payments will be lower. It works,

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Speaker 4: we pay less, but if you keep interstrates too low

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Speaker 4: for too long, you get high inflation. So if you want,

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Speaker 4: if I want.

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Speaker 1: To, we already have inflation ticking up.

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Speaker 4: We have moderate inflation. It's higher than it should be.

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Speaker 4: But that's not the scare story yet, right, right, but.

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Speaker 1: Right, I know where this is going.

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Speaker 4: Go on. You know how exciting it is to be

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Speaker 4: Molly Jong Farce economic advisor. I am economists to the stars,

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Speaker 4: economics teacher to the stars, and sometimes my stupid star

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Speaker 4: Paul when she's worked through a few financial crises and

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Speaker 4: she ads written for that well known financial magazine Vanity Fair.

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Speaker 1: And Vogue and known for covering.

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Speaker 4: You, are the closest I've going to come to. Vogue

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Speaker 4: is talking to you and doing Can we do this together?

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Speaker 4: Come on, you can do it all. Go on to.

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Speaker 1: Okay, talk about the bond market, girl, bond market market.

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Speaker 4: I'm only going to talk bond market while you keep voguing.

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Speaker 1: God damn it.

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Speaker 4: Okay, all right, it was too distracting for me. Thanks

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Speaker 4: for stopping mall Okay, So if we go the full

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Speaker 4: trumpest future, which is basically what id On did in Turkey,

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Speaker 4: we point lunatics who could be interest rates too low

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Speaker 4: for too long inflation rises. You'll notice I use the

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Speaker 4: word if may not happen good news. Problem is, if

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Speaker 4: I were to borrow money, say take a ten year

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Speaker 4: loan today, the lender knows there's some chance it will happen.

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Speaker 4: So therefore, already today, even without Trump having destroyed the FED,

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Speaker 4: the lender is weighing the possibility that Trump destroys the FED.

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Speaker 4: If he does, inflation will be really high, in which

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Speaker 4: case interest rates will be really high, in which case

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Speaker 4: they're only going to be willing to lend me money

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Speaker 4: for ten years if they added an extra premium, Which

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Speaker 4: is the probability Trump destroys things, multiplied by what will

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Speaker 4: happen to interest rates, And realize that when ERDA one

434
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 4: did this in Turkey, interest rates went up above ninety

435
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 4: percent at some point, or inflation went to eighty six percent.

436
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 4: So a small risk of a catastrophic outcome already right

437
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 4: now will add a lot to the interest rate that

438
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 4: I get charged. So that's long term interest rates. What

439
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 4: Trump has managed to do, he's managed to make people

440
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 4: convinced he's pro what's called it dove, someone who's in

441
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 4: favor of low interest rates, which has led markets to

442
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 4: believe interest rates might be a little lower over the

443
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 4: next year or two. But it's led them to worry

444
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 4: that on average, across all the possible states of nature,

445
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 4: they'll be higher in the future. So he's lowered some instrates,

446
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 4: has raised others. Which ones matter for business, the long ones.

447
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 4: Your mortgage is a long run interest rate. Your business

448
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 4: loan is a long run interest rate. If I'm breaking

449
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 4: ground on the manufactory, it's a long run interestrate. So

450
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 4: Trump's desire it's a lower interest rates has in fact tustrates.

451
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 4: He's actually undone the very thing he was trying to do.

452
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,479
Speaker 1: So I think that's a really a good point, and

453
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could just for a minute, it

454
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 1: strikes me that there are other ways in which Donald

455
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: Trump has done that, where he has said he wants

456
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: something and caused the opposite to happen.

457
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 4: Okay, should I talk about tariffs?

458
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean tariffs are a great example, right. I

459
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: mean it just seems like so the tariffs he wants

460
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: to bring back American manufacturing. But the problems we see

461
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 1: is like, for example, it's cheaper with certain materials to

462
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 1: actually make things somewhere else and import them. So yeah,

463
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: tuk us through that.

464
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 4: So there's a huge problem inside the White House. There's

465
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 4: some beliefs that I don't agree with. Fair Enough, we

466
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 4: can disagree on beliefs. There's ways of thinking about the

467
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 4: economy that I disagree with. I could be wrong, and

468
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 4: there's sharing competence. I'm against that under all conditions. So

469
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 4: if I were talking in a normal country at a

470
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 4: normal time about tariffs, I would say, if you put

471
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 4: tariffs that are designed to help the manufacturing sector, you

472
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 4: will help the manufacturing sector. And the question is to

473
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 4: the benefits to manufacturers offset the cost to everyone else.

474
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 4: But the way we've gone about tariffs breaks every rule

475
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 4: in the how to help Manufacturer's handbook, even though that's

476
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 4: what they're trying to do. I'm going to lead with

477
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 4: the fact this is a Dallas FED survey where they

478
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 4: surveyed Texan manufacturers and they said, what if tariff's done

479
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 4: for your business? Three point seven percent of manufacturers, this

480
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 4: is the group that's meant to help, three point seven

481
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 4: percent said it had helped. Something like ninety percent said

482
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 4: it that hurt, and a few other and a few

483
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 4: others you know, had different effects. You know, were unsure

484
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 4: what the effect was. So the way they've done it

485
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 4: actually fails to do what they were hoping to do. Well,

486
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 4: here's I've got the numbers. They had a seventy two

487
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,239
Speaker 4: percent of text and manufacturing firms set tariffs that had

488
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 4: a negative impact, seventeen said no impact, seven percent didn't know,

489
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 4: and three point seven percent set it that helped. It

490
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 4: would be if you'd said to me justin, I want

491
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 4: you to be as incompetent as you can. I want

492
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,360
Speaker 4: you to design a set of tariffs that will help

493
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 4: a mere three point seven percent of manufacturers, it would

494
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 4: have hurt my head. I would have been, how can

495
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 4: I implement tariffs that only help a tiny sliver because

496
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 4: it's reducing the competition from abroad. It does do that,

497
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 4: it's hard to do. And then I would have remembered

498
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 4: page one of the tariff handbooks, don't put tariffs on inputs.

499
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 4: And so then I would have said, well, I know

500
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 4: what I'll do. If I really want to hurt American manufacturers,

501
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 4: I will put tariffs on steel and aluminium and aluminum

502
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 4: as well. I will put tariffs on chips. I'll start

503
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 4: a trade war. So the input you want to get

504
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 4: from a broader harder to get. I will make it

505
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 4: so Canadians hate us and they don't want to buy

506
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 4: any of the stuff that we produce.

507
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: Right, this is like they would be our most, our

508
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: easiest trading partner, closest, easiest.

509
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 4: I will get the rest of the world of likeness.

510
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 4: I will make it so there are a fewer skilled

511
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 4: workers for precision manufacturing by chasing away foreign students. I

512
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 4: will take the great engines of innovation and try to

513
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 4: shop universities, being of course our universities. So it's actually

514
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 4: a striking accomplishment. But I actually think it's something we

515
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 4: should talk more about. Not tariffs, not the bond rate,

516
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 4: but the extraordinary levels of incompetence, tariffs that are on

517
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 4: on Monday and off on Tuesday. This incompetence is above

518
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 4: and beyond any ideological divide. It means they're not even

519
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 4: achieving the right wing goals that they're after.

520
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: Thank God, we're out of Prat.

521
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 4: God, because it means not even the region, not even

522
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 4: no one wins from stupidity.

523
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 1: So thank you. Justin Walfer Hers doctor Abdul l Said

524
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 1: is running for the Democratic nomination for Senate in the

525
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: state of Michigan and is the former director of the

526
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: Department of Health, Human and Veteran Services for Wayne County, Michigan.

527
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: Welcome too fast politics, doctor abdulahs.

528
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 5: Yet, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate

529
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 5: you having here.

530
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: You're a doctor, but you are also running for the

531
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: United States Senate in the great state of Michigan. It's

532
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: a primary. It's a crowded Democratic primary with three candidates.

533
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: And I interviewed you this weekend on the Weekend Show

534
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: when I was filling in, and what I was really

535
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: struck by was that you have a very clear message

536
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: about your lane in the Democratic Party. So would you

537
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: talk us through what that message is.

538
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

539
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 6: I don't know that there's a doctor lane in most

540
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 6: Democratic primaries, but I think most Democratic primaries would be

541
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 6: better if there was one. I never grew up thinking

542
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 6: I'd be great to run for office. I actually grew

543
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 6: up with a lot of my mentors telling me I

544
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 6: should and thinking that's crazy.

545
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 5: Why would I do that.

546
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 6: I have an eleven letter first name that's got sounds

547
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 6: that come out of parts of people's throats they.

548
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 5: Usually don't know they have. And I really wanted to be.

549
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 6: A doctor in large part because of the contrast of

550
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 6: my upbringing. I was raised by my father who's an

551
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 6: Egyptian immigrant, and my stepmom, Jackie, who's a daughter of

552
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 6: the American Revolution, from like right here in Michigan, literally

553
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 6: the middle of the state, and I would get sent

554
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 6: off to Egypt often to spend most of my summer

555
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 6: with the wisest, most intelligent person I've ever met, who

556
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 6: was my grandmother, who never got to go to school.

557
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 5: She was the ninth to fourteen herself.

558
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 6: She gave birth to eight kids, got to raise six

559
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 6: because two died before their first birthday. She had this

560
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 6: incredible moral sense, and she always always would impress upon

561
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 6: me the fact that I had cousins who are smarter

562
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 6: and cousins who are harder working than cousins who did

563
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 6: all the right things. And the thing that I got

564
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 6: going for me more than any of the other ones

565
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 6: was that I had to go back to America at

566
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 6: the end of the summer. And the crazy thing right

567
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 6: was it would take me fifteen hours to get to

568
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 6: or from Egypt, and I travel though I didn't have

569
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 6: the language for it at the time, about ten years

570
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 6: different from life expectancy, and I didn't have to go

571
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 6: fifteen hours. I could go fifteen minutes from where I

572
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 6: grew up, just outside the city Detroit, into any neighborhood

573
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 6: in the city and travel the same gap. And the

574
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 6: fact that I got all those opportunities that even my grandmother,

575
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 6: who'd never been to America at the time, got to understand,

576
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 6: and then there were kids whose families had been here

577
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 6: far longer than mine who didn't get them is the

578
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 6: reason I went into medicine. And when I realized that

579
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 6: the things that were making my patient sick had more

580
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 6: to do with there. They had to breathe the water,

581
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 6: they had to drink, the jobs that they had or

582
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,239
Speaker 6: didn't have, the opportunity to eat healthy food that they

583
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 6: had or didn't have the faster. I realized that I

584
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 6: was not long for the world of clinical practice, and

585
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 6: I went into public health to do something about that,

586
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 6: and rebuilt Detroit's health department to put glasses on kids,

587
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 6: to take on corporate polluters, ran Wayne Counties Health Department,

588
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 6: the largest, most diverse county in the state, to do

589
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 6: things like eliminate medical debt and put a narcan in

590
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 6: one hundred locations. And so I see politics to me

591
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 6: as more of a continuation of an answer to the

592
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 6: question of why people get sick in the first place.

593
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 6: And once you run up against the political challenges that

594
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 6: people face and start asking why do they make decisions

595
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 6: like that, you start to question, well, you know, maybe

596
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 6: I should, I should put myself in the position to

597
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 6: make those same decisions. And I told you, I grew

598
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 6: up telling people I would never run for office. In fact,

599
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 6: I graduated Valtctoria in my class at Michigan and the

600
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 6: main speaker who anybody actually went to listen to was

601
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 6: Bill Clinton, who after our speeches asked me, you should

602
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 6: run for office someday?

603
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 5: Why not? And I told them about my name. We

604
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 5: Bill chuckled about it.

605
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 6: But I'm finally at a position now where I've I've

606
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 6: kind of come to realize that if you're not willing

607
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 6: to articulate at the level of our politics, which to

608
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 6: me is a conversation about.

609
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 5: Who we are and who we want to be, that

610
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 5: ideal of an America.

611
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 6: Centered around the well being of all of its kids,

612
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 6: then I just don't know that we're going to be

613
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 6: able to take on either Trump or build the kind

614
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 6: of America where Trump can't exist in the future.

615
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: One of the things that we see a lot and

616
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: by we I mean me in my second job, which

617
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: is yelling at Democratic politicians about all the things they're

618
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: doing wrong.

619
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 5: Which you do so well, Molly. I really appreciate you

620
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 5: doing it.

621
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: That's my hobby, by the way. And all those spokespeople

622
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: who think they're working me when I'm like, yes, let's

623
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: have a long conversation about what I feel your boss

624
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: is doing wrong. All of those people really hate me.

625
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: But one of the things that strip by is that

626
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: it's very hard to get good people to run for office.

627
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 5: This is a terrible way to live your life.

628
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 6: Like I to be honest with you, like, I've have

629
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 6: a two year old and a seven year old, and

630
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 6: I don't get to see them most evenings. And you know,

631
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 6: sometimes I think about, like, all right, if I win,

632
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 6: I'm going to be in DC four days a week,

633
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 6: and when I'm in Michigan, I'm going to be all

634
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 6: over the state being the senator and making sure that

635
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 6: I'm listening to the folks I serve. And it doesn't

636
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:06,719
Speaker 6: leave much room for the things that, like, you know,

637
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 6: make you a person. And I think there's a lot

638
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 6: of folks who do this because at some point they

639
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 6: really like the idea of being like listened to because

640
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 6: you have a position of power. I think it would

641
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 6: be better off if more of our politics was about

642
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 6: the question of what do you want to do with

643
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 6: your power?

644
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 5: Rather than do you want to be in power?

645
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I often tried to think of what politician I

646
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: feel the most betrayed by. Is it a Kirsten Cinema.

647
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: Is it a Joe Manchin, is it a you know?

648
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: Is it someone who knew the right thing but couldn't

649
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: get it done. But it strikes me that in the

650
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: moment we're in where public health has been so politicized,

651
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,719
Speaker 1: the really the only solution is to have doctor senators.

652
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: And speaking of which, there is a Republican doctor senator

653
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: who was the designing book for R FK. Junior. And

654
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: I'd love you to talk us through a little little

655
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: bit about that cowardice and also sort of what you

656
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: think watching it and what you're feelings are.

657
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, I got to meet Bill Classidy.

658
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 6: Actually I've testified before the Senate Budget Committee and Health, Education,

659
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 6: Labor and Pensions or HELP Committee before, and he was

660
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 6: the ranking member on the HELP Committee when I testified

661
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 6: on medical debt, and it was fascinating to me. We

662
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 6: were having this conversation about the possibility of abolishing medical debt,

663
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 6: which of course nobody comes by because they were making

664
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 6: bad decisions. You know, you don't get medical debt because

665
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 6: you've got a Brazilian butt lift.

666
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 5: You get it because you got cancer.

667
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 6: He kept trying to make it about the three P

668
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 6: forty B program, which is this obscure program that reimburses

669
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 6: for pharmaceuticals and at times gets misused by large hospitals.

670
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 6: But you know, really is is a key lifeline for

671
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 6: getting pharmaceuticals to people who need them. I remember watching

672
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 6: him squirm around this question of the RFK appointment because

673
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 6: as much as I disagree with his ideals, he and

674
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 6: I received very different training.

675
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 5: I'll be in different eras.

676
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 6: But when you go through medical training, there's a very

677
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 6: rigorous process by which you are taught to ask and

678
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 6: apply an analytical lens to every question you ask. And

679
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 6: it's not just an analytic lens from the position of

680
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 6: your brain, like does this make sense, it's also like

681
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 6: an analytic place from the position of your caring for

682
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 6: the person in front of you. And I could see

683
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 6: he knew he was running in a bus saw And

684
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 6: then I also just watched that like flicker of his

685
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 6: political future in his eyes, and it was actually quite

686
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 6: illuminating to me, because I'm like, what's it worth? Like,

687
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 6: you know, you've already lived the whole career as a doc.

688
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 6: You got elected to the US Senate by the pardnerance

689
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 6: of your neighbors in the state of Louisiana, And what's

690
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 6: so good about the job that you can't just do

691
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 6: or say the thing that is so obviously wrong to you?

692
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 6: And I get that Donald Trump holds that entire party

693
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,959
Speaker 6: enthrall to him in the most brutal kind of way,

694
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 6: But part of me says, like, if you're going to

695
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 6: go out on something, maybe as the doctor who got

696
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 6: elected to the US Senate, you're going to go out

697
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 6: on the idea that we shouldn't appoint a guy who

698
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 6: has no business in any legitimate conversation about the public's

699
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 6: health overseeing all of the public health infrastructure of this country.

700
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 6: And at the same time, there was a question for me,

701
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 6: like I was asking myself, I'm like, how do you

702
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 6: when you put yourself in a position like this, how

703
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 6: do you protect yourself from that? Like what is the

704
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 6: architecture of your morals or even your mind that keeps

705
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 6: you from putting the obvious wrong ahead of the obvious right.

706
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 5: Just to save your political skin.

707
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 6: I just think that maybe part of it is and

708
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 6: maybe comes down to this. Bernie told me something when

709
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 6: I ran for office the first time in twenty eighteen.

710
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 6: He's like, you know, in this business, you're either really

711
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 6: good at lying or withholding the truth, or you're really

712
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 6: good at telling the truth. And he's like, you don't

713
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 6: strike me as a good liar. I was like, no,

714
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 6: I couldn't do to save my life. So part of

715
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 6: me says that the thing that you can do best

716
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 6: in this job is to be a really good teller

717
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 6: of truth. I think a little bit about my grandmother

718
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 6: and about her leadership and my family, and about her

719
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 6: recognition of like the odd moral circumstances in which I

720
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 6: was growing up, or like I'm the one of my

721
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 6: cousins who gets to have this incredible life and the

722
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 6: others who are smarter, more capable than me, you know,

723
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 6: drive cabs or work working class jobs in Egypt, and

724
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 6: I hope that I can keep that. But like, there

725
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 6: is something corrupting about power. We know it.

726
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 5: I mean, to your point, I'm trying to get to

727
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 5: really like Plummet. I don't know how we like get.

728
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 6: More folks to see the like moral core of the thing,

729
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 6: or to be willing to be really good arbiters of truth,

730
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 6: because I think if we were really good arbiters of truth,

731
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 6: I think the Democratic Party would be a very very

732
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 6: different place. I think our politics would be in a

733
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 6: different place. It's that we have nobody who's willing to

734
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 6: courageously or very few who are willing to courageously tell

735
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 6: the truth who get to positions of power to be

736
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 6: able to tell it in a real way.

737
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 1: First of all, I want you to talk about, like

738
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: what the headwinds are you have this primary. You have

739
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 1: two opponents, both women, both they occupy sort of different

740
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 1: lanes of the Democratic Party. If you win this primary,

741
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: you will go against the Republican. It's a purple state,

742
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: but there is definitely you have this sort of very

743
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: very scary like Michigan militia. And then it's a state

744
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: with like a lot of different kinds of people, a

745
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: lot of different kinds of voters, and a lot of

746
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 1: different kinds interests. First of all, I want to know

747
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: how you win in Michigan and then I want to

748
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: know sort of what you envision is a senator, what that.

749
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 4: Would look like.

750
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, the first thing I'll say is this, I think

751
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 6: we have an outdated political lens through which we try

752
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,439
Speaker 6: to analyze our politics, which tends to be this right

753
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 6: left to divide. And I think in accordance with that lens,

754
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 6: you would say, well, Abdul is running further to the

755
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 6: quote unquote left, and you would say that other candidates

756
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 6: are running either further to the right or somewhere between

757
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 6: the two of us. And I think the proper lens

758
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 6: for our politics today that helps explain why a state

759
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 6: like Michigan would both support a Bernie Sanders in a

760
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 6: primary and then vote for Donald Trump in a general

761
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 6: election is more the separation between people who feel locked

762
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 6: out of our politics or institutions of power and the

763
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 6: people locking them out. And I think if you understand

764
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 6: Michigan that way, I think this race and my entry

765
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 6: into it makes a lot more sense. I'm somebody who,

766
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 6: by virtue of just happenstance, got to be in a

767
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 6: lot of the rooms that most people who look like

768
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 6: me get locked out of, and in so many ways

769
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 6: I've sort of looked at what's happening in those rooms

770
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 6: and felt just this deep guttural disgust to the way

771
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,479
Speaker 6: that people are talked about and parsed and thought through.

772
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 6: And I have made my career about trying to unlock

773
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 6: a lot of those rooms.

774
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 5: So when I travel my state, and.

775
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 6: I've been to what fifty some cities, I've probably done

776
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 6: nearly one hundred public events.

777
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 5: Because when your name's Abdul, you take nothing for granted.

778
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 6: No matter where I go, people tell me the same stuff,

779
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 6: like you close your eyes and you could be in

780
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 6: a town hall in Escanaba in the Upper Peninsula, or

781
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 6: a church in Redford, and people are literally using the

782
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 6: same exact words, just that they don't know that they're

783
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 6: using the same words. And So I think that a

784
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 6: political movement built around unlocking our system and being one

785
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 6: hundred percent honest, clear and direct about the ways the

786
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 6: methods of the locking out that happened, the ways that

787
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 6: corporations can buy and sell politicians, the ways in which

788
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 6: it's corrupted Republicans wholeheartedly, but also unfortunately too many Democrats,

789
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 6: The ways that I've rejected that system. I've never taken

790
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 6: a dime of corporate money, both when I ran in

791
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 6: twenty eighteen, and when I'm running now, and I see

792
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 6: that I'm blocking as being a fundamental core value of

793
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 6: what I'm trying to do, I think I'm going to

794
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 6: win a lot of voters who otherwise.

795
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 5: Folks would code as quote unquote right wing.

796
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 6: Now, look, are there folks who are going to run

797
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 6: it who are going to vote against me because my

798
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 6: name is Abdul. Yes, but let's be clear, they're not

799
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 6: voting for any Democrat, right, So if like that's your assessment,

800
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 6: I think you're not really paying attention. But then the

801
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 6: other part of it is this think about who Democrats

802
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 6: lost in twenty twenty four. They lost mainly Arabs and

803
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 6: Muslims over the disastrous handling of Gaza, and they lost

804
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 6: young men over the notion that young men don't feel

805
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 6: like they have a place in the party. I happen

806
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 6: to be a younger I can't credibly call myself young anymore,

807
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 6: but a younger Arab Muslim man, and I think that

808
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 6: that allows for a conversation that Democrats too often have

809
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 6: not had. You couple that with the honesty and the

810
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 6: integrity of my message and the fact that I've been

811
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 6: saying and doing the same things now for a decade

812
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 6: in Michigan politics. And yes, my name might be Abdul,

813
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 6: but like I'm the Abdul who wants to make sure

814
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 6: you have healthcare, and the due who wants to make

815
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 6: sure you can keep your job and form a union

816
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 6: if they're trying to take it away from you. And

817
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 6: I'm the Abdul who's fought against the big corporations who

818
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 6: are polluting your kids air, and the Abdul who put

819
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 6: a pair of glasses on your kids face, and the

820
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 6: Abdul who forgave your medical debt. Like I think that

821
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 6: there's an opportunity here to win both in the primary

822
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 6: and the general. And so you know, maybe as a

823
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 6: child of immigrant, like as a hazard of that, like

824
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 6: we do math, but like the math maths. And my

825
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 6: job is to have the conversations that other Democrats are

826
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 6: not willing to have, because too often they're more interested

827
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 6: in the conversations they're having behind closed doors with the

828
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 6: corporation that's going to write them a pac check, conversations

829
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 6: that I've never had and will never have.

830
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: We would love you to talk about the uncommitted movement

831
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 1: and just sort of what you tried to do there,

832
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 1: and there clearly was and I think a lot of

833
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: us worried about this failure on the part of elected

834
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: Democrats running for office to address the situation. And I

835
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 1: wonder if you could talk about that.

836
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, people see the difference between principles and political position,

837
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 6: and I think the difference is whether or not your

838
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 6: principles apply in all places in all times, or if

839
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 6: they just apply in some places and sometimes, which makes

840
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 6: them just political positions. And I've tried to be principled

841
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 6: about the question of where our tax dollars go. And

842
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 6: I think a lot of us watched the just complete

843
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 6: dumpster fire of the Biden administration's mishandling of Gaza, and

844
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 6: I think it said a lot about his or his

845
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 6: administration's capacity to do the job. And I think the

846
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 6: question was, how do we make sure that folks understand

847
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 6: the risk of this ahead of the general election? And

848
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 6: so when the Uncommitted movement started to organize, I endorsed

849
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 6: it because I think we saw that Joe Biden was

850
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 6: not fit for the job in his handling of Gaza.

851
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 6: I think the whole world saw that after his first

852
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 6: disastrous debate performance and ultimately who is no longer the nominee.

853
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 6: And for me, the minute that Kamala Harris was announced

854
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 6: as the nominee for the party, I endorsed her. I

855
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 6: was the first Arab and or Muslim leader in Michigan

856
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 6: to do so. And the reason I did it and

857
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 6: it was not because I agreed with the administration's handling

858
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 6: of Gaza, but it was because whether you saw this

859
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 6: from the eyes of a child in the city of

860
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 6: Detroit whom I served, or the eyes of a child

861
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 6: in Gaza, there is no world in which Kamala Harris

862
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 6: would not have been better every single day than Donald Trump.

863
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 6: And that to me is again a matter of principle, right,

864
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 6: And so you know, I endorsed her. But here's the

865
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 6: hard part. One of the aspects of that was I

866
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 6: would have thought that that would give me some space

867
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 6: to have a conversation with the campaign and say, there

868
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,240
Speaker 6: really needs to be some distance on this issue, because

869
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 6: there are a lot of voters for whom this is

870
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 6: a non starter and we're seeing the Natan Yahoo administration

871
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 6: disregard American public perspective or American political values, and you

872
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 6: need to call that out. And it didn't happen. And

873
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 6: at the same time, I'm on the phone with Arab

874
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 6: and Muslim leaders being like, y'ah, this is insane. Donald

875
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 6: Trump tried to like stop people who look like you

876
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 6: from coming to this country. This is ridiculous, and he

877
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 6: is going to come after our community again.

878
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 5: Okay, this is crazy, crazy, And unfortunately it was.

879
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 6: You know, you can imagine the frustration of months and

880
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 6: months on the phone with these different groups of people

881
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 6: and nobody seems to be listening, and you're like caught

882
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 6: in the middle, trying to be the arbiter of like

883
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 6: just basic logic and conventional wisdom and be like y'all,

884
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 6: like can we all recognize what's about to happen here?

885
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 6: And in some respects I think, you know, there are

886
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 6: frustrations obviously with the decisions that Arabin Muslim voters made.

887
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 5: I have a lot of those same frustrations.

888
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 6: And at the same time, we were talking about the

889
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,359
Speaker 6: vice president of the United States, right, Like we're talking

890
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 6: about very very powerful people who who made political decisions,

891
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 6: and these are political decisions that put them on the

892
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 6: wrong side of the empathy anybody should have for dead, dying,

893
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 6: maimed children or orphan children and I just it was

894
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 6: just a dumpster fire waiting to happen, and it was

895
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 6: really truly one of the most frustrating four months of

896
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 6: my life. And so I supported Uncommitted because my principles

897
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 6: tell me that we owe a responsibility to our size

898
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 6: and our power not to spend our tax dollars writing

899
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 6: blank checks to foreign militaries who are dropping bombs on

900
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 6: other people's children when we have starving children here at home.

901
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 6: And I endorsed Kamala Harris because I knew that Donald

902
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 6: Trump would be worse when it came to those same principles.

903
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, as someone who was on the Jewish side

904
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: of that conversation, the same exact thing. I mean, fancy

905
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,800
Speaker 1: Jews saying, well, he's better on Israel and me saying

906
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: a blank check to Israel to kill Palestinian children is

907
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: good for no One' sound good for Jews, it's not

908
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: good for Israel, It's not good for anyone. And it's

909
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: the same terrible tragedy and now it's just getting one

910
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 1: hundred times worse.

911
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 6: So much of this conversation, especially when it comes to

912
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 6: Michigan in Dearborn, boils down to a certain like tribalism

913
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 6: about this thing.

914
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 5: My position on.

915
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 6: Blank checks to foreign militaries applies to Egypt, where my

916
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 6: folks immigrated from. It applies to Jordan, applies to Pakistan,

917
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 6: applies to Saudi Arabia. I just don't think that we

918
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 6: pay our tax dollars so that somebody can send blank

919
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,919
Speaker 6: checks to another country's million terry. I think we pay

920
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 6: them to invest in our own kids. Similarly, right, it

921
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 6: has been really frustrating to watch anybody, right, whether with

922
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 6: good intention or bad intention, equate the actions of a

923
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 6: foreign government with the will or the beliefs of Jewish

924
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 6: people or the Jewish faith. And I find any attempt

925
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 6: to do that as being essentially anti Semitic. Similarly right, Like,

926
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 6: it'd be a crazy thing off somebody who was like, well,

927
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 6: the Egyptian government did this.

928
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 5: So clearly you believe, like no, like what f is that?

929
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 4: Right?

930
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 2: Like?

931
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 6: And so when we do it to anybody, it's wrong.

932
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 6: Similarly right, there are basic principles that all of us

933
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 6: have to bring to this. I condemned Hamas from day one,

934
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 6: because anybody who puts children in harm's way is wrong.

935
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 6: No context needed, right, And so what I've always tried

936
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 6: to ask is take the same principle and apply them everywhere,

937
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 6: independent of your own background, independent of who the actor

938
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 6: involved is, apply the same principles everywhere. And I think

939
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 6: if we did a lot more of that, and we

940
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 6: had the courage to say what our principles were and

941
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 6: apply them evenly, I think that this would be a

942
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 6: far less challenging situation. And in the end, what the

943
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 6: issue is is you've got a special interest regime that

944
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 6: allows maga billionaires to spend a lot of money to

945
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 6: try and tell people what they can and can't say.

946
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 6: And like that's the same issue as we have with

947
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 6: pharmaceutical money that comes in and tries to truck you

948
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,720
Speaker 6: if you talk about Medicare for All or health insurance

949
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 6: CEOs or utilities who come in when you try to

950
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,399
Speaker 6: regulate them. And we've got to sort of name the

951
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 6: process and then also name our principles. And the contrast

952
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 6: between those things, I think is what can actually get

953
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 6: us back to a party that maybe can win elections again.

954
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: You think the Democratic Party needs new leadership.

955
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 6: Well, I think the Democratic Party needs to remember what

956
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 6: its base is about. Like here's the problem. There is

957
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 6: a fundamental wedge between Democratic Party voters or voters generally,

958
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 6: and Democratic Party donors. We need leadership that is going

959
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 6: to pay attention to the voters instead of the donors.

960
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 6: And you see a playout and it's like, we still

961
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 6: haven't learned the lesson. You look at this Gaza resolution

962
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 6: at the DNC meeting, you're like, y'all, your base every

963
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 6: poll that you have ever seen in the last month

964
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 6: or two has shown you that your base disagrees with

965
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 6: you on this. And yet and yet you cannot as

966
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 6: a party have the courage to proclaim that you agree

967
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 6: with where the base has moved, which, by the way,

968
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 6: is a statement of principle about what is happening with

969
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 6: our money, and you still can't say it.

970
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 5: And part of me is is like, what are you

971
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 5: worried about?

972
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 6: And the hard part to me is this, It's like,

973
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 6: there is a certain political economy and incentive set that

974
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 6: when you have the luxury suite on the Titanic, you're

975
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 6: more interested in keeping the luxury suite on the Titanic

976
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 6: than you are and making sure that the Titanic doesn't sink.

977
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 6: And unfortunately, that's kind of how our party feels right now.

978
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us.

979
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 5: It was my privilege. I appreciate you having me a

980
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 5: moment ou.

981
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: Jesse Canon.

982
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 3: So Maali, we previously discussed one of the most stupid

983
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 3: performative moronics I've come across in a minute, which is

984
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 3: that Oklahoma is going to test teachers from California and

985
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 3: New York to make sure that they're America first, and

986
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 3: the test is written by Brager, You who now seemed

987
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 3: to be the outsource for all things performatively stupid. Yeah,

988
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 3: what did it shocked you to hear that these questions

989
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 3: are some of the most ridiculously stupid misinformation I've ever seen.

990
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: Who is coming from New York and California to go

991
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:12,879
Speaker 1: teach at Oklahoma?

992
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 5: Like?

993
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: Who is doing that? Who's like I need to go

994
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: to a state where they pay teachers less, where they

995
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: have less state taxes to pay for things. I want

996
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:25,720
Speaker 1: to go work there because I mean Oklahoma. You guys

997
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: couldn't make yourselves any less appealing if you.

998
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 3: Tried, agreed the thing, being though, you'd also have to go.

999
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 3: I want to go here because I want to teach

1000
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 3: kids absolutely not true facts.

1001
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: Nobody's doing this. I mean this is like this crew

1002
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,919
Speaker 1: is so delusional about being a teacher. It's like their

1003
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: war on federal employees. They think federal employees are making

1004
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: billions of dollars and they're doing it because they want

1005
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: to help people. Like it's the idea that somehow wanting

1006
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 1: to help people is not in the calculate at all.

1007
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1008
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 3: I almost wish they would go back to the War

1009
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 3: on Christmas because that one at least had no victims.

1010
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it did. It had victims of me. I

1011
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 1: was a victim of the War on Christmas.

1012
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm a victim of Christmas music every year

1013
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 3: and it makes me sad.

1014
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: Happy Holidays, bitch. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.

1015
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear

1016
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: the best minds and politics make sense of all this chaos.

1017
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 1: If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a

1018
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.