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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to cool People. Did cool stuff your

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Speaker 1: weekly reminder that only good things have happened in history.

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Speaker 1: Nothing bad has ever happened in history. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Margaret Kildre, and I have a guest today. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of not really a guest. It's actually instead of having

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Speaker 1: a guest, I have a person who's taking over for me.

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Speaker 1: His name is Shiv Romdas and Hi, Hiv. How are you? Hey? Mac? Bye?

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me? Wait can I say Mac?

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Speaker 1: But yeah you can? Oh? Okay? Nickname still? Oh cool?

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Speaker 1: That's how you know that Shiv has known me for

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Speaker 1: a long time. Yes, I first met Shiv through the

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Speaker 1: science fiction world. I don't remember what year, probably twenty

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Speaker 1: sixteen or something, I don't know. Shiv is a science

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Speaker 1: fiction author and apparently a professional funny man by Twitter.

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Speaker 1: Is that a way to describe your fame?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's accurate. It's interesting but accurate. It's very interesting.

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Speaker 2: Even science fiction conventions, people want to like talk about

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Speaker 2: my Twitter. It's it's it's gratifying.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Shiv, I was so jealous I have had fewer

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Speaker 1: followers than me, and then made a really good tweet

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Speaker 1: thread and then had like approximately ten times as many

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Speaker 1: followers as me like three days later. Yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: quite weird, like it's very surreal. Yeah, anyway, but we're

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Speaker 1: not here to talk about Twitter. We are not. Shiv

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Speaker 1: has been someone that I've been hitting up for weird

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Speaker 1: history about Indian revolutionary stuff for a long time, and

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Speaker 1: so I'm really excited to pass this off to him.

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Speaker 1: But first, also on the line of Sophie Hi, Sophie Hi, mac.

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Speaker 3: Pie, it's all I got for you her usual cave. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was getting real dark in the basement. That it's

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Speaker 3: a record upstairs today where their sun.

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Speaker 1: So if he's in the sunshine. Yeah, and our editor

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Speaker 1: is named Ian, everyone has to say Hi Ian, Hi, Ian, Hi, Ian,

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Speaker 1: Hello Ian. That's close enough.

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Speaker 4: We'll take it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Our theme music was written by Aun Woman. And

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Speaker 1: today we're talking about Gama, who's Gamma. Gama is my

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Speaker 1: childhood hero.

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Speaker 2: Well not exactly pretty it's like someone I've thought was

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Speaker 2: very really cool and the closest thing to a superhero

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Speaker 2: India has, which also I think if you think about

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Speaker 2: it as pretty appropriate because Gama is like pretty close

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Speaker 2: like Gamma. It's like a superhero name. Anyway, Uh, uh huh.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so like Gamma Rays, that's that's what people call him.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's the part we leave out right because then

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Speaker 2: you're talking about someone being green and we're going in

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Speaker 2: a whole different direction there. Okay, it's a nice snappy name, right,

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Speaker 2: like it's it's like a cool superhero name.

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Speaker 1: Does he have a last name, Well, he has a

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Speaker 1: lot of names.

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Speaker 2: So he actually was born with the name of Gulam

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Speaker 2: Mohammed Bucksh. But so his nickname in childhood was Gama

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Speaker 2: and he's one of those people who's famous enough that

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Speaker 2: his childhood nickname becomes the world's name for him.

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Speaker 1: Hell yeah.

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Speaker 2: So it's a very very small, rarefied amount of people

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Speaker 2: who ever got there. But the fun part about this

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Speaker 2: guy is it's totally appropriate that he has a superhero

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Speaker 2: name because if you look at like his life story

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Speaker 2: and his resume, it's basically like a superhero story.

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Speaker 1: He's also a wrestler, by the way.

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Speaker 2: The wrestler. The wrestler, I'm not kidding. He's a guy who,

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Speaker 2: in a professional career of over fifty years, is said

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Speaker 2: to have never lost a fight. This is a sport

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Speaker 2: where everyone has a narrative of their own. Everyone has

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Speaker 2: a favorite of their own. Sometimes everyone has a winner

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Speaker 2: of their own, and in that sport, this guy is

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Speaker 2: acknowledged universally as the greatest there has ever been. He

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Speaker 2: was the greatest ever at one kind of wrestling. He

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Speaker 2: was really really influential in an ancillary sense in another

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Speaker 2: kind of wrestling. His lifestyle inspired Bruce Lee. He went

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Speaker 2: from man to hero, to myth to legend back to man.

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Speaker 1: All this is true.

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Speaker 2: He became part of a reverse propaganda campaign against the

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Speaker 2: British Empire. He was so successful that papers in England

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Speaker 2: during the occupation of India were bemoaning the effect he

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Speaker 2: was having on the morale of people in India, and

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Speaker 2: they were really unhappy about it.

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Speaker 1: The positive impact on the morale of the.

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Speaker 2: Positive and negative impact on like white people in India.

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Speaker 1: Ah yeah, yeah, so yeah, there was that as well.

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Speaker 2: Even that was like really complicated though, like Gama epitomizes

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Speaker 2: the phrase man of his time better than almost anybody.

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Speaker 2: And this is one of those rare times. I don't

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Speaker 2: mean it as a pijob. Usually we say he was

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Speaker 2: a man of his time, were talking about him being

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Speaker 2: racist or something, and this is not the case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh good, Yeah, yeah, I just.

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Speaker 2: Mean that, like I have a whole theory about the

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Speaker 2: era he lived in, which we'll get into, and I

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Speaker 2: just think he's very very well. I think the right

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Speaker 2: word is the epid to me of it. And honestly,

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Speaker 2: I'm a short guy and the fact that this man

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Speaker 2: has done all this at five foot seven is inspirational

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Speaker 2: to me personally.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, wait, I have a question about the wrestling.

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Speaker 1: You say he's undefeated in fifty years. Is Indian wrestling

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Speaker 1: like American wrestling where it's fake and scripted? No?

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Speaker 2: In fact, that is a very good question because we're

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Speaker 2: going to get into a whole bunch of that because,

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Speaker 2: as it turns out, these two kinds of wrestling met

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Speaker 2: back when this kind of American wrestling was the British

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Speaker 2: kind of wrestling.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but so the British were fake also, but he

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Speaker 1: was actual real wrestling. Well, Europe, we'll get into it.

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Speaker 1: Lets say, no, great, great, great, no spoilers, awesome. I

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Speaker 1: just want to know because, like, if you're like the

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Speaker 1: undefeated wrestler, I'm like the guy who has cast as

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Speaker 1: the winner every time, Like, but actually winning a competition

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Speaker 1: of sports is cool.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well put it this way, right, Like it's the

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Speaker 2: best thing I can say about this is like there's

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Speaker 2: this saying in India. I think it's by Puff and Care,

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Speaker 2: but don't quote me on the courte is that in India,

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Speaker 2: whatever it is true, the opposite is also true.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: The thing about like things like true and false for

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Speaker 2: a podcast, especially of this nature and like talking about

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Speaker 2: these things, is to put them in their proper context

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Speaker 2: is actually like way harder than it sounds, because essentially

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Speaker 2: that time period like between the late eighteenth and about

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Speaker 2: like early to mid nineteenth century, sorry a late nineteenth

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Speaker 2: early to mid twentieth century is it's just a really

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Speaker 2: wonky period of history. If you think about.

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Speaker 5: It, it's like a time where we actually went from

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Speaker 5: So like put this, when Gama started his career, you

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Speaker 5: if you wanted to follow a match, you had to

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Speaker 5: hope that someone sent a correspondent to wherever the fight happened,

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Speaker 5: and then that person would telegraph back to you in

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Speaker 5: moscode or whatever his summary of what he saw, and

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Speaker 5: you would read about that in.

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Speaker 1: The paper locally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, by the time he retired, you theoretically could have

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Speaker 2: watched him live on color team.

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Speaker 1: That's cool that Yeah, fifty year careers hell yeah, okay.

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Speaker 2: And that's a lot actually for fifty years to think

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Speaker 2: about the history of like humanity, Like that amount of

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Speaker 2: change in the verifiability or the veracity of information, let's

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Speaker 2: put it that way, is a lot hard like prior

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Speaker 2: to times like that. Essentially when you talk primary source,

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Speaker 2: so you're saying, I believe the person.

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Speaker 1: Who wrote about this, yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: By the end of it, you're saying, I have to

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Speaker 2: see pictures of it didn't happen. Yeah, So that it's

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Speaker 2: just a very interesting time in that context. So in

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Speaker 2: terms of there are lots of times during our conversation

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Speaker 2: where we're going to end up at the point of

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Speaker 2: like there is this version of events and there is

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Speaker 2: possibly this version of events, and the truth could be

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Speaker 2: anything in between these two.

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Speaker 1: Oh I love that shit, that's what. Yeah, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: all about it.

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Speaker 2: And so the other part of it is that, like

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Speaker 2: I don't really subscribe to the great Man theory of

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Speaker 2: history in general. So like, one thing that is true

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Speaker 2: everyone is that like even someone who is like as

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Speaker 2: superheroesque as Gama is essentially a confluence of being time

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Speaker 2: and talent and situation and context, right, circumstances happen, and

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Speaker 2: in fact, what happens in this person's case is that

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Speaker 2: he is sort of like the best way to basically

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Speaker 2: understand his life, I think is to view him as

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Speaker 2: like this central character in this largest saga, which involves

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Speaker 2: a lot of people and events and happenings and politics

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Speaker 2: and machinitions, a lot of which he had nothing to

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Speaker 2: do with. But yet he becomes like this central, almost

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Speaker 2: mascot like figure in it. And yet you cannot take

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Speaker 2: away from the fact that it required a certain amount

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Speaker 2: of talent, et cetera to be the.

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Speaker 1: Person who was there.

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Speaker 2: But yes, yeah, but no one is like the writer

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Speaker 2: of the entire history they figure in, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, So essentially, what.

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Speaker 2: We're going to do now is we're going to, like

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Speaker 2: hear a long chronological story in which this man shows

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Speaker 2: up at various points. And I am in no way

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Speaker 2: suggesting that he's some kind of Jacy Forrest Gum.

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Speaker 1: But he was there were a lot of really interesting things.

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Speaker 2: Happened, Okay, cool, and he does sort of in his

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Speaker 2: own way, influence a lot of these events. So let's

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Speaker 2: begin with what he did or who he is and

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Speaker 2: I think another way we have to like look at

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Speaker 2: this to kind of kind of make sense of the

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Speaker 2: whole thing is that if you want to understand Garma,

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Speaker 2: you've got to actually understand like the time and the

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Speaker 2: events they were in. And to do all of this,

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Speaker 2: you basically have to understand the guy's life. And to

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Speaker 2: understand the guy's life, you basically have to understand a

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Speaker 2: little bit about what his life was about, which was wrestling. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so we're gonna spend a lot of time talking about

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Speaker 2: wrestling on this podcast.

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Speaker 1: I am. I'm very pro context. Everyone who listens to

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Speaker 1: the show regularly knows that this is a pro context show,

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Speaker 1: so I'm excited for context.

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Speaker 2: So I realized a lot of people listening to this

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Speaker 2: may not be wrestling nerds. So what I'm going to

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Speaker 2: try and do is I'm going to keep actual descriptions

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Speaker 2: of like matches and stuff short, because when you get

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Speaker 2: into this stuff, people will you will find people have

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Speaker 2: written entire chapters about two moves in a fight.

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Speaker 1: M hm.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to try and not subject most of

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Speaker 2: you to that, and we're going to like sort of

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Speaker 2: breeze through the matches. But we need to go through

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Speaker 2: the understand the context of why they mattered. Okay, all right,

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Speaker 2: so let's start with his name, right, Like, he was

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Speaker 2: known as Gama the Great in the West, but in

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Speaker 2: the subcontinent he's basically known as Gama.

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Speaker 1: Pel One and.

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Speaker 2: Hell One is essentially a practicer of Pehlwani, which is

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Speaker 2: the style of wrestling we have in India that Gama

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Speaker 2: was a practitioner of. And from the name, it's pretty clear, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: you can't really separate this guy from wrestling, So we're

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Speaker 2: going to have to go through one to get to

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Speaker 2: the other.

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Speaker 1: Now. So it'd be like if his name was like

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Speaker 1: Gama Karate or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly Karatega, okay, so to speak, yeah and okay,

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Speaker 2: the word pelwan itself has like a deeper meaning. It

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Speaker 2: means like strong man, but it also has like a

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Speaker 2: deeper context, which I'll get into. Wrestling might actually be

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Speaker 2: the oldest competitive sport we have along with racing, like

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Speaker 2: food racing, it.

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Speaker 1: Is probably the oldest sport.

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Speaker 2: Like I'm sure the food trace is right up there,

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Speaker 2: but wrestling is pretty much there. The thing about wrestling is, though,

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Speaker 2: it's a word that actually covers like an entire spectrum

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Speaker 2: of sports, and a lot of them are extremely different,

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Speaker 2: but they have like some kind of common thread throughout them.

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Speaker 1: M hm. So for instance, you.

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Speaker 2: Know you have freestyle wrestling, you have cat just catch

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Speaker 2: can you a Greek or Roman?

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Speaker 1: You have peloanion.

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Speaker 2: Of course, you have professional wrestling, which is the kind

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Speaker 2: we just talked about.

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Speaker 1: In America, it's called professional wrestling. I'm a fan, by

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Speaker 1: the way, I think it's like a fantastic art, Like

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Speaker 1: it's just yeah, no, totally. Yeah. So theeter theater's.

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Speaker 2: Great, absolutely, and like those guys are great athletes. It's

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Speaker 2: just like, yeah, their objective is different from anyone else.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, if you've watched a lot of wrestling, you

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Speaker 2: can see why it exists, because like a lot of

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Speaker 2: like actual wrestling can be supremely boring if you're not

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Speaker 2: really into it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, I mean, okay, So it's interesting to me

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Speaker 1: that wrestling. It makes sense and it makes me feel

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Speaker 1: good about humanity. That wrestling is probably older than stand

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Speaker 1: up and punch each other in the face back and forth,

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Speaker 1: which is what I would have first come up with.

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Speaker 1: If someone were to ask me what the oldest sport is,

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Speaker 1: I would have guessed boxing. And it makes me happy

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Speaker 1: that the foot race and wrestling pre date. And now

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Speaker 1: I say this as someone who is I know a

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Speaker 1: little bit about boxing and I don't know as much

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Speaker 1: about wrestling.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's very interesting in the sense of

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Speaker 2: like even if you remember like when you were a

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Speaker 2: kid and you got into like a playground fight, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there is something different when someone is sitting on your

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Speaker 2: chest and smacking you as opposed to and they just

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Speaker 2: like get you from a distance. Yeah, that's true, and

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Speaker 2: so I can see why it happened first, you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Like, also, it's just like it's more about control and

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Speaker 1: less about destruction. I'm not trying to make a statement

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Speaker 1: about the sports, but the concept of stand here and

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Speaker 1: punch each other in the face versus like who can

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Speaker 1: physically wrestle to the other the ground and dominate I

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Speaker 1: don't know whatever anyway, Okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know enough about boxing to like get

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Speaker 2: too deep into that, but I totally agree with you.

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Speaker 1: There's like a whole there's like a fan mad at.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a fight podcast could probably like do a whole

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Speaker 2: series on like this whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so what style is he? So he's doing

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Speaker 1: this particular style. So he's doing the style which is

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Speaker 1: called Pelwani.

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Speaker 2: Now Pelwani even among all the selves of wrestling is like,

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Speaker 2: it's really really fascinating, partially because like its history is

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Speaker 2: barely documented in English except by a few people. And

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Speaker 2: anyone who's like interested in what we talk about today,

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Speaker 2: I encourage you to Reades Majumdar. He's like the probably

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Speaker 2: the greatest historian in the history of Indian wrestling.

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Speaker 1: Say his name, Islower, because people are gonna ask me.

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Speaker 1: His name is Majumdar, s majum Dar. Okay.

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Speaker 2: You could also read this guy called Joseph Alter, who's

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Speaker 2: an American professor, I believe. And there's also this English

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Speaker 2: writer called Graham Noble who's done a lot of really

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Speaker 2: good work. Okay, in fact, a lot some of what

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Speaker 2: we discussed about Gama in England has been beautifully documented

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Speaker 2: by him in the series of essays called Lion of

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Speaker 2: the Punjab, which which essentially goes deep into Gama's time

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Speaker 2: in England.

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Speaker 1: Okay, which we're gonna learn about, which we're gonna learn

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Speaker 1: about now.

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Speaker 2: Now, Perelwani has this long history in its own right,

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Speaker 2: and yet it's extremely interesting that it itself is like

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Speaker 2: a combination of like two even older styles almost so,

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Speaker 2: so you know, like Indian Malayada at some point met

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Speaker 2: Persian Koshti and it became what we now know as

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Speaker 2: Pelwani till today. Kushti from Koshti is the Hindi word

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Speaker 2: and you're the word for wrestling, okay, So it is

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Speaker 2: basically almost one thing now in India. Also, obviously you

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Speaker 2: had you know, the history of Gurukul's in a certain

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Speaker 2: manner of like traditional education, there was the akara that's

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Speaker 2: a system that's been around from like five hundred and

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Speaker 2: something ce five thirty seven.

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Speaker 1: I would say, okay, wait, what's a kara an.

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Speaker 2: It's it's basically like a living ashramo school for martial arts.

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Speaker 2: Like think of it as a dojo where you live

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Speaker 2: and work, like you don't just go home, you like

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Speaker 2: live then serve the master as well as you know

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Speaker 2: that whole thing. Yeah, So at some point this merged

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Speaker 2: with like how wrestling and Telivani wrestling. So now wrestling

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Speaker 2: in India is essentially conducted through the akara system.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Which so if you want to become a wrestler,

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Speaker 1: you go live at your school among other things.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Like, so if you take the best way to

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Speaker 2: actually picture Bilani for those women encountered, it is like

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Speaker 2: we're going to sort of quadrangulate from other things. So

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Speaker 2: if you take like the the tradition and the ritual

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Speaker 2: of sumo, and you take like the straight up intensity

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Speaker 2: of like mixed martial arts, and if you take like

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Speaker 2: you know that all those stereotypes you have a warrior

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Speaker 2: amongst from shaolin, and you take like all the theatricality

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Speaker 2: and you know the history onics from professional wrestling, and

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Speaker 2: you married them all into one bastard child, you would

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Speaker 2: probably have to Havelani.

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Speaker 1: Wait, this sounds like the best sport. It's incredible, it's incredible,

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Speaker 1: sounds awesome. Oh, it's incredible.

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Speaker 2: And if you watch, if you watch a fight like

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Speaker 2: you see the similarities to sume ball. Most immediately, like

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Speaker 2: the partismans will approach each other and salute each other

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Speaker 2: that comes through the crowd. The arena is basically just

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Speaker 2: like this mud ring, and you know they'll they'll rub

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Speaker 2: mud over themselves and stuff. They rub the hands and

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Speaker 2: mud and then they'll start the fight. The referee is

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Speaker 2: basically mostly there to prevent legal blows like you can't

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Speaker 2: kick to the groin and things like that. And the

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Speaker 2: objective is basically pin the other person's shoulders for the

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Speaker 2: cow that you win. And it's really that simple, except

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Speaker 2: that it's not, you know, like bouts can go on

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Speaker 2: for hours like and rules yeah, and rules can vary

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Speaker 2: a bit with tournaments, like sometimes we will go on

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Speaker 2: till there's a victor. Usually there'll be like a set

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Speaker 2: time and by then you haven't figured one out. It

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Speaker 2: will be like a draw or something.

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Speaker 1: Okay, But.

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Speaker 2: With nuanswers that's the situation. And like with all things wrestling,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot more going on, like beneath the surface.

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Speaker 2: So just for instance, like give you an example, like

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Speaker 2: just take the surface, the literal surface. These guys fight on,

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Speaker 2: like I called it, like a mud earth and ring.

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Speaker 2: But the earth is prepared like with great amounts of care,

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Speaker 2: almost like a xelatory, Like the right amount of oil, milk, water,

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Speaker 2: spices will be added because it has to be soft

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Speaker 2: enough that someone can fall on it repeatedly and not

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Speaker 2: get some lasting injury. But it has to be hard

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Speaker 2: enough that feet will find purchase and they won't slip. Okay,

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Speaker 2: A lot of places have their own recipes for preparing

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Speaker 2: just the earth which they will guard. Okay, so essentially

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Speaker 2: what I'm trying to say is that, like if you

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Speaker 2: decide to become a wrestler, like it's not a career choice,

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Speaker 2: it's not a lifestyle, it's like your whole life.

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Speaker 1: You will go there.

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Speaker 2: You will live, you will work there, you will clean

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Speaker 2: the place, you will learn to prepare, you will train.

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Speaker 2: Like the training is a thing all by its own,

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Speaker 2: Like they use these rustic training techniques that they've used

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Speaker 2: for literally hundreds of years.

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Speaker 1: M hmm.

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Speaker 2: They use no modern equipment till today. Like you won't

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Speaker 2: find a single dumb bell, barbell or traditional weight in

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Speaker 2: the place you might find a tractor tire.

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Speaker 1: All right, all right, some swim concessions to modern CrossFit, right, oh, Like.

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Speaker 2: The traditional thing is they have something like a doughnut

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Speaker 2: which you wear around the neck while doing squats, which

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Speaker 2: is made of stone or whatever. Like the endurance and

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Speaker 2: intensity training is actually.

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Speaker 1: Like extremely hardcore, as we will see.

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Speaker 2: And they've been doing this for hundreds of years, and

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Speaker 2: like nobody's only been like interfering with them in the

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Speaker 2: sense that like they've just been doing that thing for

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Speaker 2: hundreds of years at the time we get into this story.

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Speaker 1: Does I mean the British are going to suck it

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Speaker 1: up a lot of things?

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Speaker 2: But yes, always the case. Well, yeah, there's their actual

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Speaker 2: daily schedule. Is like like it's all it's a public

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Speaker 2: people talk about it publicly because.

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Speaker 1: Such a wild thing.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that cricket is probably the most popular

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Speaker 2: sport in India, but wrestling is easily the second most popular,

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Speaker 2: irrespective what anyone says, Like TRPs don't really measure how

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Speaker 2: excited people get for a local wrestling event in the

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Speaker 2: villages and how many people come, but wrestlers are like

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Speaker 2: local heroes, like big time.

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Speaker 1: Literally, all I know about cricket is from reading your

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Speaker 1: tweets and a movie I saw about anti imperial cricket

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Speaker 1: in India.

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Speaker 2: Oh you mean Lagan, Yeah yeah, oh that that film.

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Speaker 1: That's all I know about cricket is those two things.

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Speaker 2: That that that film is like a hot mess in

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Speaker 2: a whole different way.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we don't talk about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, Like I could rant for a really

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Speaker 2: long time whether film.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, So you're average wrestler, right, get somebody like three

408
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Speaker 2: in the morning, you start your day off, you perform

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Speaker 2: squats and push ups and like I'm talking about like

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Speaker 2: probably thousands of each. You'll run for five miles, then

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Speaker 2: you'll swim. Then you'll swim, spend some time lifting stones

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Speaker 2: and sandbags. Then about eight o'clock the teachers will watch

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Speaker 2: as you do actually like wrestling practice for about three hours,

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Speaker 2: maybe twenty five matches in a row. Then this usually

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Speaker 2: works in seniority, so like the most senior guys will

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Speaker 2: start first, so they have kind of shorter days than

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Speaker 2: the trainees. Obviously, like the grind is everywhere, you know,

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Speaker 2: at about ten o'clock, these guys will start chilling. They'll

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Speaker 2: eat food, they'll be gett like a full full on

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Speaker 2: oil massage, and then they'll go to sleep. Then they'll

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Speaker 2: get up again in the evening, get another massage, wrestle

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Speaker 2: for another two hours, have another meal, go to sleep.

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Speaker 2: Things maybe slightly more or less like somewhere, depending where

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Speaker 2: you are. But one thing I should mention here is

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Speaker 2: I've just like mentioned food a couple of times, and

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Speaker 2: the food is going to play an integral part.

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Speaker 1: In a way.

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Speaker 2: The only reason where having this discussion is because of

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Speaker 2: the food. As I'll expels in at some point. Okay,

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Speaker 2: let's just put a pin in the food because it

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Speaker 2: really matters.

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Speaker 1: Okay, wait, but but speaking of food, what food should

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Speaker 1: we be sponsored by?

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Speaker 3: Oh that's like good, Yeah, that's like the hardest question

435
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 3: you could ask somebody of the spot.

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Speaker 4: But also answer it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry to do it all right, okay randomly pop Darts?

438
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 4: Great, great choice, great choice.

439
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: We are sponsored by pop Tarts, only not the actual

440
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 1: brand they have not actually given us.

441
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 6: Yes, pastries, not Kellogg because uh, don't don't look into

442
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,880
Speaker 6: the history of that guy.

443
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,919
Speaker 1: Is there a bastards on Kellogg? Oh? Yeah, there is

444
00:22:52,520 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: bagpie boy, howdy is there? Well? Like toaster Strudle, all

445
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,639
Speaker 1: of our sponsors contain multitudes. They can be good or bad.

446
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: They wake up each morning like all of us, and

447
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 1: choose what actions they take. And here's those ads, and

448
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 1: we're back and we are learning about food. Well, we

449
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: put a pin in food. I'm just kind of hungry,

450
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 1: is what's happened? I've realized I am yeah, I.

451
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,160
Speaker 4: Need you need you need a pop Dart.

452
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 1: I know I wish I had popped Arts, but not

453
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 1: actually a pop Dart. No, yeah, yeah, no, non Kellogg brand,

454
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: and all people and people there's really cool recipes to

455
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: make homemade pop charts.

456
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 4: Really yeah, then a lot of them are vegan to magpie.

457
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 1: Oh excellent, Okay for later, So what are we learning next?

458
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: All right?

459
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 2: So, so we were talking about the culture of wrestling

460
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: and the kind of lifestyle and our pelvani in general.

461
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 1: So the thing is like the popularity of.

462
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 2: The more accomplished guys, like you cannot understate it, like

463
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: they and especially in the time we're talking about, they

464
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 2: were like local and national superstars for one culture, like

465
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 2: the wrestler has generally been like kind of a folk

466
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 2: cultural local hero and you know, like the that whole

467
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 2: like perception of them as like a warrior among who's

468
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: like this noble person who will stand up for right,

469
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: protect the weak and innocent from forces, etc. Like that

470
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 2: whole thing was very much existent. It's gone away now,

471
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: but he'll still like it is not a coincidence that

472
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 2: when the big Teamy TV version of the Ramayan was made,

473
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 2: the choice of guy to play Hanuman.

474
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 1: And for those I don't know, I'm sorry. So Hanuman

475
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 1: is like the monkey god.

476
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: He is known as an asthetic who is like again

477
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 2: someone who does a lot of really cool physical SUPERHEROI ish.

478
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 1: Things in the cost of Hayan.

479
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: But you know, he himself never married, like he was

480
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: just devot put it to his guru is like Lord

481
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 2: Drama and that kind of stuff. So he's again the

482
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 2: vision of like the noble warrior monk in the context

483
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 2: of the Ramain itself. It is not a coincidence that

484
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 2: the guy chosen to play him in that was Dara Saying,

485
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: who was essentially another really super famous Pelwani wrestler.

486
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 1: Oh awesome, Okay, so there's that overlap.

487
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 2: So wrestling has had its effects on Bollywood back and

488
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 2: forth over the years, and we will touch upon some of.

489
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: Those, okay as well. I'm making a lot of promises,

490
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: but I'm going to keep all of them all right now,

491
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: this is your fiction writing, is showing you know you

492
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: that's what you do. You like lay the groundwork. No,

493
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:41,640
Speaker 1: I'm excited. Yeah.

494
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 2: So another part of this is that Pelwani, like it

495
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 2: really in a big way, was promoted by a lot

496
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 2: of Muggle emperors and not least ball like the guy

497
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: at the very top of the food chain. And I'm

498
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 2: talking Barber who founded the Mughal Empire.

499
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 1: I am completely ignorant. Can you tell me roughly when

500
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: that was. Oh yeah, I think I think they was

501
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: like rough with centuries. I don't know anything about so

502
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 1: if I know, if you're a little about Indian history,

503
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

504
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 2: So the Mga Empire was founded, whether like either twelve

505
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 2: or four or fifteen something.

506
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: I think it might be fifteenth first Battle of Pontyputh.

507
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: But okay, now I feel bad for putting you on

508
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: the spot.

509
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's fine, it's fine. I actually feel bad.

510
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 2: I used to like know the exact year, and I

511
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 2: have somehow forgotten it. So I need fifteen twenty six. Yeah,

512
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: I had it on the tip of my tock.

513
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: It was fifteen. I should have gone with it. You know,

514
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: it looked cool. I know, opportunity we could do it again.

515
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, so I said, you go.

516
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 2: So fifteen twenty six was the year, yeah, yeah, long yeah,

517
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: all right, yeah, so that's when he comes down from

518
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: a place called Summer, so essential. Barber claims lineage from

519
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: both Jengis and Timur on either side, claims being the

520
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: operative word.

521
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: I am going to be the stand in for the

522
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: American audience that doesn't know anything about this. Well, who

523
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: are they? Okay? So Jengis Khan.

524
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 2: I know Jengis Khan is Okay, you know Jengis Khan, right, Okay,

525
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, another real skurt so to speak, occurred to

526
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: some people, and he was like a pretty evil guy

527
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, especially tow places he took over.

528
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 2: Was a guy known as Timur du La or Tamalalayan,

529
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 2: depending on where you learned about him. They also consider

530
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 2: two of the great Mongol conquerors of all time of

531
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 2: the Mongol Empire, and as is probably customary, now, Barber

532
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 2: was from royal family. He claimed he the senate from

533
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: both of them. But long in the short of it,

534
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 2: this kingdom is called summer Kan. Then he and his

535
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 2: people get chased to Wa. He doesn't get to be

536
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 2: king there.

537
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 7: So Baber decides, I will go and found my own

538
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 7: empire somewhere and some way he finds all the way

539
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 7: down in India where he defeats this guy called Ibrahim

540
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 7: Lodi to take over the throne of Delhi and found

541
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 7: what came to become the Moughal Empire. Okay, so Barber

542
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 7: is actually that super rare empire empire I'm saying, emperor

543
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 7: who is genuinely a tough guy and leads his guys

544
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 7: in the battle himself and stuff like that. And Barber

545
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 7: also had really yeah, he's also old school in the

546
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 7: sense that by virtue probably of being a leader on

547
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 7: the battlefield, he understands the value of theatrics and messaging

548
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,959
Speaker 7: and propaganda. So, for instance, when on the on the

549
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 7: eve of the Battle of Banipath, where he's going to

550
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 7: face Abraham Lodi and all, you know, and he is

551
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 7: definitely the underdog. Let's say in this fight, he's come

552
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 7: all the way, he's facing this big ass established emperor

553
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 7: of India.

554
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: And what happens is, this is how the story goes

555
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: that Barber used to enjoy a good drink. So what

556
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 2: he does is he has all these many fancy drinking

557
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 2: vessels made of gold, silver, emeralds, whatever, whatever, and he

558
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: gets his army together and he tells them that if

559
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: we win this battle, I will never drink again. And

560
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: I'm so sure we'll win this battle, I'm going to

561
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: smash all my drinking cups right now in front of

562
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: you all. So that's what he does, and the next

563
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: apparently it worked because they won, so they stick to it.

564
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: I'm not sure, but I think he did, because there's

565
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: not too much talk of Barber drinking after that. But

566
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 2: then he was also an emperor of India and he

567
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: could excize whatever he wanted, So yes, they choose your story, Yeah.

568
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: Okay, and on.

569
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: So this guy, actually, if you think about it, is

570
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: a perfect match for wrestling, with his combination of actual

571
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: toughness and theatrics. Yeah, and he's said to have been

572
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,239
Speaker 2: like super enthusiastic about it to the point he used

573
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: to participate himself, and he was apparently really good. But

574
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: the same accounts, many of them also say that Barber

575
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 2: could tuck a man under each armpit and run so

576
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 2: fast that no one could catch him. So you should

577
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 2: decide how much of this you want to believe.

578
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: It is just like Mark Zuckerberg who hires fancy MMA

579
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: fighters to pretend like they're teaching him, and then he

580
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: does videos where.

581
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 2: He's like, I don't know, I don't know how this works.

582
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 2: Actually in the sense that do you remember this Roman

583
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: emperor called Domitian I think he was called It.

584
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: Makes if I also don't know the names of the

585
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: Roman emperor's either.

586
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: Now, this guy actually feel like it's very sad we

587
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: don't talk enough about him, because Kaligila gets like such

588
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 2: a lot of the press being like the psycho emperor,

589
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 2: which one.

590
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: Like fought the sea. I'm gonna get everyone's gonna be

591
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: so mad at me that I haven't gone this far

592
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: back yet.

593
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 2: Wasn't a canoe too fought the sea?

594
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know. I took three years or not.

595
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: I don't know how to say. Yeah, maybe not, maybe not.

596
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: But Domitian used to take part of races in a.

597
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: Bunch of Wait, you told me at the beginning that

598
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: I'm we're getting completely off track.

599
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 2: We should go back right Okay, wait, wait Notitia, we

600
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: heard talk about if.

601
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: We're talking about we're too far gone. This is true.

602
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: This is true, all right.

603
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 2: So Barber was a great ruler, okay, great patron of

604
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: wrestling and so on and so forth, and it carried

605
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: on and it became a really big deal, right like because.

606
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: During the empire, during the Mogul Empire.

607
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then things go on this way for hundreds

608
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: of years, and then everything changed when not the fine nation,

609
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 2: when the British attack, which is pretty much the same

610
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: thing in a way. Yeah, So the British come visiting

611
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 2: as the British were wont to do. And then the

612
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: British stopped visiting and decided to stay, you know, as

613
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 2: the British want to do. And then they decided that

614
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 2: they just run the whole place as the British we

615
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 2: want to do.

616
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: And yeah, they're like good at it, why not let

617
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: them kick it wrong. Yeah.

618
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: So in the case of India, all this in the

619
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: context of our wrestling community overlaps with this one gentleman

620
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: by the name of Thomas Babington mcaulay.

621
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: That is the most English fake name I've ever heard.

622
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's an interesting character in the sense that

623
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: he's a Whig. So the Whigs were generally reformists.

624
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: And apparently McCaulay was.

625
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 2: Quite active in the anti slavery movement in England, so

626
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 2: that's a plus for him. But on the minor side,

627
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: he was also very into Western culture and he didn't

628
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: actually believe in anything else, so he kind of led

629
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: a movement to like defund every single college that only

630
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: taught like Indian subjects in Indian education and Eastern stuff

631
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 2: and didn't teach like the British curriculum.

632
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: You'd think if he didn't like anything but Western culture,

633
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: you'd go back to the west.

634
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: But that's actually like very much a British thing I've noticed,

635
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 2: and I noticed in the pop culture till today, like

636
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 2: till today, like shows made in twenty twenty two. We'll

637
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: talk about like communities that live in France, like in

638
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: rural France and judge local French people because he doesn't

639
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 2: come to the pub. But well, why should he come

640
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 2: to the pub, Like go back to England and go

641
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: to the pub. No, yeah, like you you want him

642
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: move everywhere else and naked your island, Like I don't

643
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 2: understand this trip.

644
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Unfortunately Americans didn't inherit that from the British. We

645
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: totally are famous for.

646
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: That either, right, right, Well Americans kind of went the

647
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: other way, right, Americans go everywhere and say it's better

648
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 2: at home.

649
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Well anyway, okay, so.

650
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: The British so and part of like this Western education

651
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:30,959
Speaker 2: in India takes the form of like basically propagandizing the

652
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: Indian population about how Indians are generally inherently physically weaker

653
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: compared to the western white man.

654
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: You know, like a lot of this you never had

655
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: a chance stuff. So no, it was like a whole thing.

656
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: And it's interesting to think that this suddenly gets a

657
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: bunch of pushback in terms of counter propaganda. And the

658
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: people leading this charge are like the most unlikely people.

659
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 2: If you think about contextually, it's like the Maharajas and

660
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:56,479
Speaker 2: the powerful people of India.

661
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: Okay, and if you think about it.

662
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: Like it is their collaboration at various stages, we'd enable

663
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:02,959
Speaker 2: the British to gain a footoo to begin with.

664
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: Okay, but this rankles for some reason.

665
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 2: So a lot of stuff starts happening, Like you know,

666
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,240
Speaker 2: people start writing.

667
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: Can you give me like that, what decades we're talking about?

668
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 2: So now we're talking about the eight so mccallaugh, and

669
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 2: stuff starts in like the eighteen forties, as did the

670
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: Telegraph around that time.

671
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: I think.

672
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 2: So essentially everything we're going to talk about is going

673
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 2: to be covered basically the time period between say eighteen

674
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 2: forty and nineteen sixty. Okay, So now we're talking about

675
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: like eighteen forties on eighteen sixties probably at this point.

676
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: Okay, and moving on.

677
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: So you start you start having these counterpropaganda movements, like,

678
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 2: for instance, in various ways like Ramamurti the professor, he

679
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: wrote a whole thing about the ways of physical education,

680
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 2: and he went around the country lecturing on the subject.

681
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 2: You know, there's a whate are prince who mission this

682
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 2: history of divine figures of Karnataka but and his region essentially,

683
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 2: But within that he sneaks like one and twenty two.

684
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: The yoga poses like a lot of the modern you know, a.

685
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: Lot of the modern yoga forms and like positions we

686
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: see now are like developed in various ways around this time.

687
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: Like there was a lot of no, we have it

688
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 2: too kind of stuff happening.

689
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense, you know, And.

690
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 2: You can figure out how much of this was like

691
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 2: personal pride versus like genuine national interest or anything of

692
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 2: that sort. I guess there's probably a combination of it

693
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 2: like everything else. But here's the thing, Like the natural

694
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 2: progression of this was like a lot of in a

695
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 2: lot of places, like a focal point or a really

696
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 2: like important counterpropaganda messaging tool for these guys was wrestling,

697
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: like our you know, our indigenous traditional wrestling, like I

698
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 2: say indigenous with their coach because it's indigenous and as

699
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 2: indigenous everything else, like the indigenous populations of India are

700
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: really separate from this conversition.

701
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 1: Honestly, they're the tribes of India.

702
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: Okay, but anyway, so this whole stuff is happening right, Like,

703
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 2: so a lot of Maharajas at this point actually have

704
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: their own court wrestler or wrestlers, like some will have

705
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 2: several wrestlers and want will be like their main champion.

706
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: And there's tournaments all over the place. A lot of

707
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: them are holding their own tournaments. They'll be holding other

708
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: kinds of like physical contests. So that's an environment at

709
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: this point. Now you fast forward a few decades with

710
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 2: this entire like thing happening in this counter movement sort

711
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 2: of happening, and we finally arrived all this time into

712
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: our discussion at Gama's birth.

713
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love, I love a good thirty plus minutes context.

714
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: I'm not joking. That sounds sarcastic, except unless you've listened

715
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: to the show before, in which case you know, if anything,

716
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 1: you got to it sooner.

717
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: Well, well, a lot of this is still context to

718
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 2: this point. Now, Okay, it's typical for Gama and for

719
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 2: the era. Really we have three separate years, which I

720
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 2: given has his year of birth. So even for this

721
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 2: more basic of fact, you get to choose eighteen seventy eight,

722
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 2: eighteen eighty and eighteen eighty two. These are the three

723
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: years generally given.

724
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: Okay, even year, that's what's important here.

725
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 2: Definitely even yere Usually eighteen eighty is taken as the year,

726
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 2: although you know the fact that lies neatly between the

727
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: other two, and like, if you take it as the year,

728
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: the fact that we know for a fact Gama died

729
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixteen means that everything his age, death, year

730
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: of birth, everything becomes a nice round number. So I'm

731
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 2: sure that helps with the convenience. Yeah, and it's so

732
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 2: convenient that I'm going to do exactly that and say

733
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 2: he was born in nineteen eighty.

734
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: Great, I can't believe there was any doubt. Yeah.

735
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, So when he was born, his name was Mia

736
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 2: Gulam Mohammad Bucksh. But as I said, you know, he's

737
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: from a Kashmiri Muslim family and they were settled at

738
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: the time I think in dat. Yeah, his father was

739
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: like his whole family. He was born into a family

740
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:57,959
Speaker 2: of wrestlers.

741
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: How how common. I only know a little bit about

742
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: the religious I know there's a lot of religious tension

743
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 1: in India at various points like how common is how

744
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: common is it? How likely was it that he was

745
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: from a Muslim family? Was that like fairly integrated at

746
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: the time or like.

747
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, there were lots of Muslim in fact, like

748
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: a lot of the leading wrestlers in India at the

749
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 2: time were Muslims.

750
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: Okay, cool, so as we'll see, like yeah.

751
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 2: There's both, Like for instance, on his famous tour to England,

752
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 2: there were a lot of Muslims, but there was also

753
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 2: a Hindu on the trip.

754
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: Cool. So much like that sports movie that is clearly

755
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 1: good and you have no qualms about about cricket.

756
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, that that incredible film.

757
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: I liked the songs. I thought the songs were good.

758
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: Let's I like music anyway.

759
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 2: So Gama was essentially born to be a wrestling I

760
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: mean that like pretty much literally like from a family

761
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 2: of belwan's. His grandfather was one. His father, whose name

762
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 2: was Aziz, was one. He was a very renowned wrestler.

763
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 2: He was the court wrestler I think in Datia. His uncle,

764
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: whose name is Ian, was a wrestler. His brother whose

765
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,439
Speaker 2: name I'm going to give you his name, whose brother.

766
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 2: His brother's name is Imam Bucksh. Like we should remember

767
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: that name. It's going to come up a lot. His

768
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 2: brother was like, is a seriously renowned wrestler, Like if

769
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,839
Speaker 2: Gama had not existed, this is the guy who we'd

770
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: probably talk about, what is the greatest of all time? Okay,

771
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 2: So essentially he comes from a really really star like

772
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 2: star studed lineage of wrestlers. So the question of what

773
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 2: he was going to do with his life, I don't

774
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: think was in doubt for a second.

775
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: He's going to do thousands of squats today, That's what

776
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,879
Speaker 1: As soon as he was born, they were like, yeah, kids,

777
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: you're going to do squads. Now.

778
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 2: Having said that, like being born into a family of

779
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 2: wrestlers happens to a lot of people, and becoming the

780
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 2: greatest wrestler ever has happened to one person.

781
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: So there's a bit of a gap there. Okay.

782
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 2: They say that like he was obsessed with wrestling from

783
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 2: the moment he could talk, But he was five years

784
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 2: old when they started training him, So I don't know

785
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: how much like obsession of five year old actually shows

786
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: for wrestling. So again it's choos whether the family decided

787
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 2: he was obsessed to he was actually obsessed or whatever

788
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: at that point.

789
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, he wanted to be a paleontologist, but they were

790
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: like wrestling wrestling.

791
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 6: So it.

792
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 2: The part that's not really debatable is like almost immediately

793
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 2: he shows like super great aptitude for the workout part

794
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 2: of it, which is all he gets to do. Like

795
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 2: the training would start with like any other like any

796
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 2: other apprentice, you.

797
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: Know, sweeping, cleaning.

798
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: In time, learning to like you know, prepare the fighting surface,

799
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: doing like strength and endurance training, working on like essentially

800
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 2: learning the discipline and getting used to like living your

801
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 2: life in a super regimented style. Yeah, which is required

802
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 2: to be a wrestler before you even become like so,

803
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 2: for instance, like Gama never actually wrestled an opponent in

804
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 2: competition till he was fifteen years old, even though even

805
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: though like so, he never competed against someone outside his

806
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: own training spaces till ten years after he started training. Yeah,

807
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 2: well that's how much time he was spent like essentially,

808
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: like you know, it's like while you were having fun,

809
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 2: I was studying the blade.

810
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was studying the wrestling like like literally, no wonder.

811
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: I know very little about Comma going into this, but

812
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: one of the things I know to spoil some part

813
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: of is I think a lot of Western wrestlers didn't

814
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 1: want to wrestle him. No fucking wonder.

815
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's fascinating like to like listen

816
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: to the story and the way it worked.

817
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 1: And there was this very old joke about golf.

818
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 2: Like essentially like there's this group of guys who like

819
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 2: you know, the amateurs, and they play at their golf

820
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 2: club or whatever. They play like there's four people play,

821
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: you know, they team up into a team and you play,

822
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 2: and they get them there's only three of them.

823
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:55,959
Speaker 1: One day, they really need.

824
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: A fourth to blade. And there's this guy who they've

825
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 2: never seen. He's like, I join in the golf club today.

826
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 2: I don't know anyone. So they're like, why don't you

827
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 2: play with us? And then on the way out to play,

828
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 2: they ask him how long have you been playing? And

829
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 2: he's like, oh, today's my first day. So they're like,

830
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,439
Speaker 2: bloody hell, you know, like this guy's going to ruin

831
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 2: it if you're playing with a guy who's never played before.

832
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 2: And they go there and essentially like he's so good,

833
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 2: like he's lapping them, all of them. And then at

834
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 2: some point his partner asked, like I thought he said

835
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: you just started playing today and he's like, yeah, today's

836
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: my first day.

837
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: I was learning for eighteen years.

838
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's kind of like how Gama shows up

839
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 2: at fifteen.

840
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, all ought to be fair. A lot of

841
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: them who show up like this is the systems to say, like,

842
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: imagine the pressure. You've been spending two thirds of your

843
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: life doing this and it's your first competition. But so

844
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: has everyone else. Yeah. I didn't like the competitions I

845
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 1: had to enter as a kid after like three.

846
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 2: Months, and in all honestly, the fifteenth thing is because

847
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 2: he's like a prodigy, like usually didn't make you wait longer.

848
00:42:58,880 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: Okay.

849
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 2: So like when I say he goes into competition at fifteen,

850
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,359
Speaker 2: he's not fighting fifteen year olds.

851
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: There are no age groups in this stuff. Wow, Okay,

852
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:10,399
Speaker 1: so that's a cool.

853
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 2: That's an important thing to keep in mind, Like there's

854
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: no like fifteen to seventeen age group. It's like, if

855
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 2: you're willing to fight, you'll fight everyone, Okay. Otherwise wait

856
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 2: till you're ready, Like we're not doing this like make

857
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 2: exception for like a juniors league.

858
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: And that's hardcore, all right.

859
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's hard go Like I mean it's it.

860
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,959
Speaker 2: It's genuinely like dogg eat dog and then that dog

861
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:33,919
Speaker 2: eats its own tail.

862
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:41,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know a woney ear tail. H Yeah. Stuff,

863
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 1: This is the worst one I've ever done. This is

864
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: instead of the greatest of all time, this is the

865
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: this is the vote. This is the worst of all time.

866
00:43:52,080 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: Vote unlike these products ads. And we're back, and we've

867
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: all forgotten what came before the path break, the part

868
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: where I was talking. We didn't forget about how hardcore

869
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: this fifteen year old is.

870
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 2: Okay, so so anyway, So an aspect of like Gama

871
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 2: like the human being as opposed to Gama the wrestler

872
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 2: or Gama the superhero that doesn't get talking enough, is

873
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 2: like a lot of his personal life was basically marred

874
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,879
Speaker 2: by a constant tragedy. Okay, and it starts really early,

875
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 2: so like his training starts when he's five. When he's

876
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 2: about eight years old, his father dies and it's away

877
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: from home and his grandfather takes away his training. And

878
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 2: the reason I say this first is because at some

879
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 2: point the decision was made that we to spare this

880
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 2: child from dealing with death at such a young age.

881
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 1: We won't tell him that his dad's dead. Okay, yeah,

882
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: that doesn't usually go well.

883
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 2: All right, Yeah, it went as about as well as

884
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 2: you'd expect, because apparently, like the kid used to sneak

885
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 2: out at night and run through the streets looking for

886
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 2: his dad. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, it was pretty messed up.

887
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 2: So anyway, the plan to like protect him from the

888
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 2: reality of dad didn't really work out, because a year later,

889
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:09,919
Speaker 2: the grandfather died.

890
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: Okay, what are they dying of? I'm just guessing to

891
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 1: break so I'm not really mentioned. I don't know. Then

892
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 1: I must be to bur It's nineteenth century. They died

893
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: of TV. Okay, he's a grandfather.

894
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 2: I was ressumys old. The father, I'm sure is like

895
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 2: something certain and unexpected.

896
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah okay, fair enough. Okay, So at this point the

897
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:29,800
Speaker 1: uncle takes over the training.

898
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, And so they're a very close knit family

899
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 2: and all that.

900
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: But his uncle appears to have been like some kind

901
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: of reverse.

902
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 2: Iro all right, because his idea was moral support, and

903
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 2: he constantly tells the kid, like, all, your dad really

904
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 2: wanted for you to be the greatest wrestler in the world.

905
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: You must make your father proud by becoming the greatest

906
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 1: wrestler in the world.

907
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 2: So with the result, this kid gets even more obsessed

908
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 2: with the whole wrestling thing. Yeah, you could probably make

909
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 2: the case that he was essentially gaslight by his family

910
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 2: into becoming the greatest of all the time.

911
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't sound it also sounds like myth making too, right,

912
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: Like you know, like, oh, yeah, of course this kid

913
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: was the most obsessed kid in the world and that's

914
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: why he was the best. It's like, you know, like

915
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: I wonder how much that was true and how much

916
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: that's myth making, you know. Yeah, I mean he was

917
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: previously obsessed. He was very good at it, and he

918
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 1: spent all his time doing it.

919
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I would believe this part about it because

920
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 2: like pays parenting, welcome to but nineteenth century dacy parenting,

921
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 2: I'm sure was even more intense. And I get it

922
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 2: because like it's the kind of like emotional sort of

923
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,760
Speaker 2: blackmail that like happens a lot in India.

924
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, okay, again, like I'm.

925
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 2: Sure this happened to a lot of people, Like this

926
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: was done to a lot of people. Like I think

927
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 2: all the stuff that we discuss around what this person does,

928
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 2: I think should in one sense be considered separate from

929
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 2: like what this person themselves is done to like end

930
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 2: up as the recipient of all these accolades. It's like,

931
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 2: I'm sure a lot of people got gas lighted by

932
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 2: their family. Do you must be the greatest ever? Your

933
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: deceased uncle would have wanted only this whatever, Like, but

934
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, I'm not saying working

935
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 2: it working is a good thing either. So it's a

936
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 2: whole complicated conversation. Yeah, but I guess it takes a

937
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 2: specific combination of like gaslighting and obsession and circumstances and

938
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 2: so on and so forth.

939
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Okay, so uncle's teaching him.

940
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 2: Uncle's teaching him and anyway, so he's always been pretty

941
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 2: obsessive apparently about being very good, but now he becomes

942
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 2: like super obsessive, and he starts getting this reputation like

943
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 2: locally and like within the community and even in the

944
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 2: area of being like this like legendary level workout warrior.

945
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: And Okay, so at this point, like he's still on

946
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 2: a pure plant based diet most for the most part,

947
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 2: apart from milk, Like, so he's basically having fruit, milk,

948
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 2: and almonds at this point, Like he did not add

949
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 2: meat to like several years later, at which point they

950
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 2: start having this thing called Yucky. A lot of Muslim

951
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 2: wrestlers swear by it in terms of building strength. It's

952
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: a drink which is made from boiling bones, bones, joints

953
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 2: and tendons.

954
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: Okay, and.

955
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 2: Anyway, at this point, like our guy is still doing

956
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 2: pit digging and stuff like that. You know, you turn

957
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 2: over the earth ring conditioning, strength training, et cetera. And

958
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 2: as it turns out, like these workout habits are about

959
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 2: like put him on the map quite spectacularly, because what

960
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 2: happens is you're the Maaje of Jodpur has this physical

961
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,399
Speaker 2: conditioning Splash Endurance tournament when Gama's about ten years old.

962
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 2: Now this is the part I've never actually been very

963
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 2: clear about. But somehow this ten year old kid finds

964
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 2: himself in the tournament along with about four hundred others,

965
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 2: we like, full grown men, like you know, if you're

966
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 2: writing the movie, if you're writing a movie, this just

967
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 2: the part where you ran away from home to get

968
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 2: into the tournament or whatever.

969
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally. But he's in the tournament. We know

970
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:10,959
Speaker 1: this for a fact.

971
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 2: Like, but all we know uncles like go show you know, like,

972
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 2: we don't know how it happened, but he's there.

973
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't come home until you win. See that's

974
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: the other way you'd write the Bollywood story, wouldn't you.

975
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 2: I have no idea, Like anyway, So this tournament is

976
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 2: basically essentially what's going to happen is they're all going

977
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 2: to do squats, okay, And the way it works is

978
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: like they're all going to start doing squats, and I

979
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 2: guess they have some like counting mechanism and guys are

980
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 2: basically going to drop out as they drop out, okay,

981
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 2: it's like last man standing or last man still squatting.

982
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: Whatever. Yeah. So anyway, like four.

983
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 2: Hundred of these full grown men, well three ninety nine

984
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 2: full grown men and one ten year old kids start

985
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 2: after like after like a certain amount of time, like

986
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 2: there's fifteen of them left. One of them is the

987
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 2: ten year old kid, at which one in the mara

988
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 2: and this Maraja is like blown away. So he's like

989
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 2: he just stops the whole tournament and he declares the

990
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 2: ten year old kid the winner.

991
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: Just shame on.

992
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 2: Your men, holy shit, all right, all right, all right,

993
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 2: and then he like he takes the kid under his wing,

994
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 2: he's like, you will train in my court.

995
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: All right. So now like this ten year.

996
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 2: Old kid is basically part of like he's got like

997
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 2: he's got like a progression plan.

998
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,439
Speaker 1: Is this is there already movies about him anyway? All right?

999
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 2: So the interesting about the movies about him is that,

1000
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 2: like I think one was made which generally drew very well.

1001
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 2: He's the the film rights in India at least are

1002
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 2: owned by a certain actor who's sitting on them. But like,

1003
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe you'll watch our podcast and make it.

1004
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, anyway, so.

1005
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 2: We're talking, all right, the wing, So the Maraja takes

1006
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 2: him under the wing and he's there. I mean, this

1007
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 2: is basically more about like how stubborn and dogged the

1008
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 2: kid is, because like it turns out that we don't

1009
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 2: actually know how many did, but by his own country,

1010
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 2: did thousands of these squats. Yeah, and uh he was

1011
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 2: apparently bedrooms.

1012
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 1: There's so many orders of magnitude more than squats than

1013
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: I can do. Like, that's just there's there's multiple orders

1014
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 1: of I don't consider myself. I consider myself a little

1015
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: out of shape, but I like exercise, and that's just

1016
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 1: it's not in the realm of things that's not a

1017
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 1: number that's real to me, of a number of squats

1018
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: to do that's amazing.

1019
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 2: And these are like the and these are like those

1020
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,479
Speaker 2: Indian squats which are like him. They're really drawn out

1021
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 2: and stuff, so they kind of like the harder. You

1022
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 2: don't get to like quickly get it done.

1023
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep.

1024
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 2: Anyway, So anyway, so apparently he was like bedridden for

1025
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 2: like a couple of weeks after this. Yeah, he just

1026
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 2: kept going yeah, like I gotta do this anyway. But

1027
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 2: like when he recovers, there's no respite because when he

1028
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 2: recovered that Maraja is waiting for.

1029
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 1: His protegees, saying, you will stardy, you will study here. Now,

1030
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: let's see you do some squats. You know.

1031
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 2: That whole stuff happened. So now he spent the next

1032
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:04,240
Speaker 2: few years training here at he is about fifteen.

1033
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: Okay.

1034
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,800
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, in the outside world, like the whole indoor Western

1035
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 2: wrestling worlds, they're like about to meet like so for

1036
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 2: the first time in like eighteen ninety two, the English champion.

1037
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 2: His name is Tom Cannon. It's a very interesting name.

1038
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 1: This thing is made for Bollywood.

1039
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 2: The names are also like so snappy.

1040
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: It sounds like someone making fun of an American name.

1041
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tom Cannon comes to Indian and they said, up

1042
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 2: a match against this twenty one year old local wrestler

1043
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 2: whose name is Kareem Bucksh, who's not related to the

1044
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,959
Speaker 2: He's not related to the Bucksh family. We've talked about

1045
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 2: the Gama family. There are a lot of Bucksh's around,

1046
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 2: like it's a fairly common Kashmdia name, and a lot

1047
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 2: of Kashmi Muslim wrestlers around.

1048
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 1: Anyway, So Kareem bucks takes on.

1049
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 2: Tom Cannon and I don't know whether there was supposed

1050
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 2: to be a squash match, you know or whatever, like

1051
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: they just brought in a local gate they thought. But

1052
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 2: Kareem bucks makes short work of the English former champion, like.

1053
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: In time, because he does thousands of squats every day

1054
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 1: and then trains across the ocean and then fights five

1055
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: more people anyway, anyway.

1056
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 2: So Korean BUXISTI remember as a great hero for this,

1057
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 2: Like when people talk about him, they talk about how

1058
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 2: he like he's the first Indian to beat a non Indian.

1059
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, try the first non Indiana tribe. But yeah, yeah

1060
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 1: that is true. That is trueway.

1061
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,959
Speaker 2: So this starts and then in nineteen hundred, this gets

1062
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,439
Speaker 2: put to the test like full on, where a guy

1063
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 2: called Gulam who's There's the World Exposition in Paris and

1064
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,240
Speaker 2: they take this wrestler from India. His name is Gulam,

1065
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 2: which is extremely highly regarded wrestler. Like till today, many

1066
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 2: people regard Gulam as one of the highest like expressions

1067
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,879
Speaker 2: of Indian wrestling. Ever like, he along with Gama's brother,

1068
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 2: are considered basically the two most technically perfect wrestlers the

1069
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 2: sport has seen. Okay, well we'll talk a little bit

1070
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 2: more bad later. Anyway, So he goes to the World

1071
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:07,760
Speaker 2: Exposition where he, according to the records, fights someone called

1072
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 2: variously court dell Or, which is a bizarre name. And

1073
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 2: it took it a really long time when I first

1074
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 2: got international subject like and then I went kind of

1075
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 2: like batty trying to figure out who this guy was

1076
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 2: till I realized that these are like Anglo writers, and

1077
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 2: the guy's name he was Turkish, his father Ali.

1078
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 1: Wait, okay, then, when what was what was the other

1079
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 1: name that you gave the first name?

1080
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 2: Well, the core derell c O are hyphen d e

1081
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 2: R E l l I. The French version is c

1082
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 2: O U r T court like a tennis court hyphen

1083
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 2: d E r E l l I. His name is

1084
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 2: carther Ali, Like it's an extremely common name to anyone

1085
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 2: who's like familiar with like any kind of Muslim community anyway.

1086
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyway, so apparently Gulam kicks this guy ass. Yeah,

1087
00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 1: even though this guy is.

1088
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 2: Very well regarded, And basically what ends up happening is

1089
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,399
Speaker 2: these guys end up on the ground and this guy's

1090
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 2: unable to like flip him and get the win, and

1091
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 2: some weird stuff happens. But like Edward dspone has got

1092
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 2: like this whole account of the match, and according to

1093
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 2: his account, like basically this guy was like it is

1094
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 2: clear to everybody that he was like way superior at

1095
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 2: every level. Okay, And he in fact eventually said that

1096
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 2: the two greatest wrestlers he's seen are Gula and this

1097
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 2: guy called is smell Us or use of his smell, respectively.

1098
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 1: Who was known as the Terrible Turk. Yeah, you.

1099
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 2: Terrible Turk was one of the most colorful characters in

1100
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:46,319
Speaker 2: any history. Like, so he towards the end of his life,

1101
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 2: he goes on this tour of the United States where

1102
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 2: he does a bunch of matches. People toil are not

1103
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 2: sure whether the matches were like rigged or not.

1104
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 1: He took a.

1105
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 2: Bunch of money, took a bunch of money, demanded it

1106
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 2: in gold. This true, by the way, he demanded in gold,

1107
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 2: had the gold forged into a belt, which he wore everywhere,

1108
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 2: including the trip home by boat, where his boat collided

1109
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 2: with an extremely colorfully named British ship called the Cromarty Shirt,

1110
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 2: at which point nobody on either boat was into women

1111
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 2: and children first.

1112
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 1: Apparently there was a free for all. During this free

1113
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: for all.

1114
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 2: The Terrible Turk, a wrestler was throwing people out of

1115
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 2: his way from both sides to make it to the

1116
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 2: site to get out the ship. Having thrown all these

1117
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:37,919
Speaker 2: people off, he leaps off and drowns with the weight

1118
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 2: of his belt.

1119
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, fuck him? All right? Yeah, so you history, Yes, yeah,

1120
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:48,880
Speaker 1: I mean I have researched this.

1121
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 2: But that big gold belt design and professional wrestling that

1122
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 2: exists from about the eighties onwards, I've always wondered if

1123
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 2: it's like in a context to the belt this guy

1124
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:58,240
Speaker 2: came up with while in the United States.

1125
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, huh, that would be cool. I've not looked like

1126
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: symbolism and stuff, you know, but.

1127
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 2: It also means that who has this will will sink.

1128
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 2: So maybe yeah exactly. Yeah, Yeah, you're a marked man

1129
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 2: if you wear the belt.

1130
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially if you throw people overboard.

1131
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there was quite the story. Like I mean,

1132
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 2: there's like it was quite the story. Let's put it

1133
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 2: this way. Like the reporting. Also, it was pretty racist.

1134
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 2: A lot of Italians on the board. It's interesting to

1135
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 2: read that and see how the Italians are.

1136
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, you're right. Yeah, like of course, the

1137
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: terrible turk through everyone. No, you're right. Now, I feel

1138
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 1: guilty for having Well, you told it to me like

1139
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 1: it was true, so I believed you. You can believe

1140
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: whatever version you want. I told you right up front,

1141
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 1: all right, all right, But.

1142
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 2: Like I I don't doubt that he pushed people out

1143
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:49,920
Speaker 2: of the way to get off the ship, Like I

1144
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 2: don't doubt that at all. But I also don't fault

1145
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 2: him for it because I would try to do that

1146
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 2: to get off a ship where if you're on a

1147
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 2: ship where everyone's trying to get off for themselves and

1148
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 2: there's no order, then either you choose to be noble

1149
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 2: and die or you try.

1150
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I guess it depends on who else is

1151
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:10,439
Speaker 1: on the boat for me anyway. Anyway, that's a whole

1152
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: different yeah.

1153
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 2: Anyway, So, so as a result of this fight where

1154
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 2: Gulam doesn't do it, a budge of things happen, so

1155
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 2: at least in the eyes of the promoters, European crowds

1156
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 2: would now be eager to see more of like these

1157
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 2: surprisingly great wrestlers from India.

1158
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, because surely they must be more guys like this.

1159
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 5: Right.

1160
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 2: On the other hand, like the finances at home, who

1161
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 2: like were specifically into this because of the counterpropaganda value

1162
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 2: mm hm h. They were not like superhapp like sati

1163
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 2: Is fight yet because they wanted like the victory, so

1164
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 2: like they wanted more of this because hey, we got

1165
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 2: the better but we didn't get it done, so like

1166
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 2: they would. Basically, an entire pipeline was being laid out

1167
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 2: for this.

1168
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 1: In order to have Indian wrestlers beat Western wrestlers in

1169
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,920
Speaker 1: order to help show that India is not actually some

1170
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 1: like place that should be colonized or basically not a

1171
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 1: nation of weaklings. Essentially, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally yeah.

1172
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 2: So essentially the stage of being set, like everyone was

1173
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 2: ready for the emergence of like a new champion to

1174
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 2: have like a Gulam type status who could then like

1175
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 2: go there. India was basically eager for a hero at

1176
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 2: this point. Yeah, and very soon a hero presented himself.

1177
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 2: Except it's not the one you're thinking of. It's not Karma,

1178
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 2: it's not Gama. It's this guy called Raheem Bucks sultaniaa okay,

1179
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 2: who actually trained under Gulam, so he's like Gulam's protege,

1180
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 2: which helps. Yeah, he was essentially helped a lot by

1181
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 2: the fact that he basically looked the part very much,

1182
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 2: much more than Gama, who remember is five foot seven

1183
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 2: as a grown adult. Yeah, yeah, whereas ruim Bagh Sultania was,

1184
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 2: depending on the source, you believe, somewhere between six foot

1185
00:59:56,640 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 2: ten and seven feet tall, okay. And like there's this

1186
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 2: famous poster of his where in you know, giving off

1187
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 2: shades of barber. He's posing for it, holding up a

1188
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 2: guy in each arm, like standing up there picking up

1189
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 2: two guys. So that's like a famous poster of his

1190
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 2: promotional poster of the time.

1191
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 1: I've seen it. It's quite cool.

1192
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 2: So you know, like he's essentially the front righter now,

1193
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 2: so he wins this thing called rustam In, which is

1194
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 2: like the champion of India. So he's the known champion

1195
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 2: of India this point of time. Now, meanwhile, Gama had

1196
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 2: started competing at about fifteen, and he had started like

1197
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 2: developing a reputation of his own in a whole different

1198
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 2: kind of way where I remember when I said that

1199
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 2: fights go hours and hours sometimes, Well, Gama was like

1200
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 2: finishing fights like the if you see the reporters with matches,

1201
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 2: it's kind of like it's wired. It's like one minute

1202
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 2: two when it's four minutes, three minutes, six minutes, nine minutes.

1203
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 1: Like you don't you well see it.

1204
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 2: There's no ten minute fight there, Like no one ever

1205
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 2: went ten minutes for Gama.

1206
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: And he was like this yeah, yeah, so everyone's like mad,

1207
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 1: a like messing up their sport. They want to spend

1208
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 1: all afternoon like watching this and then he comes in

1209
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:05,919
Speaker 1: and just throws the person down.

1210
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 2: It's like it's like almost think of a guy who

1211
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 2: like maybe in baseball, like every time he comes there,

1212
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 2: he just like whacked like the first pitchases for a

1213
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 2: home run. It's like you're not supposed to do this,

1214
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 2: like it doesn't work this way. Yeah, the sport was

1215
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 2: designed for you to not do this. Yeah, anyway, so

1216
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 2: that you know, so there's that whole this in conjunction

1217
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 2: of the fact like he's doing these like absolutely insane

1218
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 2: workouts that like nobody seemed like as a kid, and

1219
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 2: also like there's this whole aura developing around this kid.

1220
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 1: Is he like built? Is he like a barrel? Is

1221
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: he a skinny kid? Like, what's the what's the bill

1222
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 1: of fifteen year old Gama?

1223
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 2: I mean he's probably built because he was pretty much

1224
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 2: built when he was older.

1225
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm sure you fieled it out. He was

1226
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 1: always like stocky and stuff. Yeah so yeah, but.

1227
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,919
Speaker 2: He's also the usually this got a reach and high

1228
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:59,840
Speaker 2: disadvantage in every fight, like and get me eoboxing right,

1229
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 2: Like that stuff is massive in all combat sports.

1230
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: This is exaggerating that, I know boxing, but yes, yeah, okay,

1231
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 1: all right, Like he'll take it, he'll take it EXPERTI.

1232
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 2: So, like a really basic thing about like combat sports

1233
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 2: is that like it's almost unheard of that if someone

1234
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 2: knows what you're going to do, you can just keep

1235
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 2: doing it over and over and over again to opponent

1236
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 2: after opponent, and like it's just like nobody can stop

1237
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 2: you like, it's sort of like if you follow mixed

1238
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 2: martial arts, like Khabib used to do stuff like that

1239
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 2: before he retired, Like he was just doing the same thing.

1240
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:32,479
Speaker 2: In the fact, if you think about it, Kabib's story

1241
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 2: has a lot of parallels to the Gama story. They

1242
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 2: trained in isolation for a long time, they came along

1243
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,920
Speaker 2: and then nobody had had a clue what to do. Yeah,

1244
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 2: and then anyway, Okay, so this guy is doing this

1245
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,439
Speaker 2: stuff now. It always comes to a head in about

1246
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 2: nineteen and four in a way for Gama where he

1247
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 2: goes into this tournament and like destroys everybody in it,

1248
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 2: like completely, and he wins the whole tournament. By this point,

1249
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 2: he's basically a coad wrestler at the year, which is

1250
01:02:58,120 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 2: a position his father used to hold.

1251
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 1: Okay, is this the same guy who had taken him

1252
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 1: under his wing? Marja I mispronounced that. That's embarrassing.

1253
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:09,160
Speaker 2: No, No, that was jodpur So Datia is where he

1254
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:11,520
Speaker 2: was as a kid, where his father was the quart wrestler.

1255
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 2: So he's now the quart wrestler back there, like he's

1256
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 2: holding his dad's old position. Like there's a bunch of

1257
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 2: wrestlers there and he's like the shining star of the

1258
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 2: wrestling stable so to speak. Okay, and at this point,

1259
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 2: like now the cries are starting right, like we wanted

1260
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 2: to see Gama versus Rahem Bakstana for like the national championship.

1261
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 2: Trust mehen like these are the two guys. Yeah, so

1262
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 2: as the record goes there, their first meeting is that

1263
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 2: Datia itself.

1264
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 1: So it's on Gama's home turf. Okay, and some sources say.

1265
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 2: This happened around like as late as I think nineteen

1266
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 2: hundred and seven is the date Masunga has recorded the

1267
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 2: fight and it was for about twenty minutes and it

1268
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 2: was a draw, which in itself is kind of significant

1269
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 2: for like both these guys like apparently are the giant

1270
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 2: and went very aggressive when he found that he could

1271
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 2: not beat Gama, which is unusual for him.

1272
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, Gama's point of view, this is.

1273
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:10,160
Speaker 2: The first time that a someone has gone over ten

1274
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 2: minutes and b he has not won the fight.

1275
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so for him this is unusual.

1276
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 2: So both of them like are grumbling about I should

1277
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 2: have done this, I should have done this. In the

1278
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 2: fight is done, yeah, ok So they meet again indoor

1279
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 2: in nineteen hundred and nine in a fight which is

1280
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 2: supposed to have no time to meit. They were like,

1281
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 2: fight to the finish was the thing. The Maharaja of

1282
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 2: Indoor organized it. And then at the three hour mark

1283
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:33,680
Speaker 2: he called it off because he got tired. He's like,

1284
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 2: this is not going anywhere, so it's another draw. So

1285
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:39,880
Speaker 2: it's another draw, all right. And then like a little

1286
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 2: bit later they meet in Lahore and.

1287
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 1: Guess what happened? They draw? They draw this time in

1288
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 1: two hours and ten minutes. Yeah.

1289
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Gama is basically unbeatable, but he's also unable

1290
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 2: to beat this guy. So this is basically the greatest

1291
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 2: rivalry of career, like against this guy, these two guys,

1292
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:04,560
Speaker 2: this might be the greatest rivalry in the history of

1293
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 2: Helwani wrestling.

1294
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so fourth.

1295
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 2: About Everyone's like, okain, the fourth boart has to happen, right,

1296
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:15,920
Speaker 2: Like three draws have happened. Yeah, everyone wants a result

1297
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:19,160
Speaker 2: at this point and some probably they would have scheduled

1298
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 2: it also, But like what basically happens at this time?

1299
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 2: This English promoter whose name is Rs. Benjamin appears and

1300
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 2: he's insistent on taking a bunch of Indian wrestlers to

1301
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:33,240
Speaker 2: England like to London and.

1302
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 1: Doing shows up and still okay, h yeah, okay.

1303
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 2: And there's been several attempts since the Gulam incident like

1304
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 2: them to do stuff like this. But this time there's

1305
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 2: this Bengali millionaire who's called Saraji who thought of this

1306
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 2: was a fantastic at the moment where you know, you

1307
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 2: could go and strike a blow at English superiority in

1308
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 2: the heart of the empire, like in London, we'll do

1309
01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:01,280
Speaker 2: it in their capital. So they managed to actually talk

1310
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 2: Gama into like going on this. So Gama, his brother,

1311
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 2: another guy called Emma Buksh and the interestingly almost similarly

1312
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 2: named Gamu. Okay, all of them set sail on this

1313
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 2: boat in nineteen hundred and nine to go off to

1314
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 2: London to strike this blow at the heart of the empire.

1315
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 2: Because Benjamin has promised them that the English crowds are

1316
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:27,880
Speaker 2: really eager to see this fight happen. Oh, these fights happen,

1317
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 2: So they said off. And as for how that happened

1318
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:36,200
Speaker 2: and what happened there, we should probably get into it

1319
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 2: after break.

1320
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 1: Oh no, you may never ask to wait till Wednesday

1321
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 1: in order to hear the other half is that what

1322
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 1: you're saying, that is what I'm saying. Did you do

1323
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:50,040
Speaker 1: a suspense Yeah, Cliffang I told you she's a fiction writer.

1324
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,160
Speaker 4: Ah, it was so spicy. I loved it.

1325
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 1: I'm excited. I hope none of them are wearing a

1326
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 1: golden belt while they're on the boat. And then also,

1327
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have the years wrong, but this is right

1328
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 1: around the same time we did an episode of Muhammad Ali.

1329
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 1: And this is right around the time when a black

1330
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: heavyweight wrestler finally got the heavyweight wrestling championship not wrestling, sorry,

1331
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 1: boxing championship from Uh, you didn't talk from talking about

1332
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:24,960
Speaker 1: Jack Johnson. God, I already forgot the names. I forget

1333
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 1: names as soon as I'm done writing them. But it

1334
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 1: was like the same year, wasn't It was like it

1335
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:31,040
Speaker 1: was like right around the same time when it was

1336
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 1: a similar time. And it's interesting, like I wasn't actually

1337
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 1: going to talk about it, but are we off wax right? No? No, no,

1338
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 1: we're still recording. Okay, that's cool, that's cool. Uh.

1339
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,760
Speaker 2: It's interesting because at one point, like the English audiences

1340
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 2: when like these guys weren't getting traction, the Indian wrestlers,

1341
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 2: there's those an English paper who started writing But how

1342
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 2: dare you cheer for a black man? But you weren't

1343
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 2: cheer for brown Indians and there's a white man writing it.

1344
01:07:57,040 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 1: By the way, Yeah yeah, p's are subjects of the Empire.

1345
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:02,080
Speaker 2: He's already been a British subject.

1346
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 1: Fucking old timey racism anyway, not speaking of old time,

1347
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:12,480
Speaker 1: do you have anything you want to plug here at

1348
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:15,360
Speaker 1: the end before before people come back on Wednesday.

1349
01:08:18,280 --> 01:08:20,559
Speaker 2: I mean I don't really have a book due right now.

1350
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:22,519
Speaker 2: I have some stories out. I have a Twitter follow

1351
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 2: my Twitter if you like stories like these, I'm hat

1352
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 2: nameship on Twitter.

1353
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:31,679
Speaker 1: Okay, Hell yeah, Sophie, you got anything you want to plug?

1354
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:36,840
Speaker 3: Uh? You could listen to sad olive Ark, cool zone

1355
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:41,200
Speaker 3: Media's newest podcast on all the apps. If you do

1356
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 3: not wish to listen to ad bricks, you can subscribe

1357
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:49,000
Speaker 3: to cool zones at free subscription channel at cooler Zone

1358
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:52,799
Speaker 3: Media on Apple podcast Android version coming soon.

1359
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 1: And my plug is that much like the man trying

1360
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:02,600
Speaker 1: to get off the boat with the golden belt, I

1361
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:05,439
Speaker 1: am preparing my life boat for leaving Twitter because Twitter

1362
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:09,520
Speaker 1: is a nightmare mess and my lifeboat is a substack.

1363
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:13,559
Speaker 1: It's at martyr Kiljoy dot substack dot com. I just

1364
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 1: started it like a week or so ago, depending on

1365
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 1: when you're listening to this, or I started it years ago.

1366
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:23,639
Speaker 1: It's far in the future and I'm on number five

1367
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:27,800
Speaker 1: hundred and ninety four. But half of it's free and

1368
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,120
Speaker 1: half of it that's like more personal is for paid subscribers.

1369
01:09:31,320 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 1: But basically, I want a way to talk about shit

1370
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:36,599
Speaker 1: without doing endless Twitter threads because Twitter is just now

1371
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 1: a nightmare full of anti trans people who have been

1372
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 1: empowered by the richest man in the world who is

1373
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 1: a wild anti trans bigot. So that's what I got

1374
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 1: to plug. Okay on Wednesday.

1375
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 3: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1376
01:09:56,800 --> 01:09:57,759
Speaker 3: cool Zone Media.

1377
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:00,919
Speaker 4: For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit our website

1378
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:04,719
Speaker 3: Foolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1379
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:07,600
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.