1
00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:06,320
Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to this spinoff episode of

2
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,920
Speaker 1: Early Zaeiitkeist, which we're calling the Iconograph. Instead of looking

3
00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,960
Speaker 1: at the Zeikest through current events on Monday mornings, we're

4
00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:18,040
Speaker 1: looking at the Zekeeist through the powerful pop culture hore crux.

5
00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:19,920
Speaker 2: That are our iconics.

6
00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,240
Speaker 1: We use these icons to create meaning, to build identity, uh,

7
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,080
Speaker 1: to find the perfect way to end the phrase no shit, UH,

8
00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,000
Speaker 1: to learn that sometimes the hat has the flap in

9
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,240
Speaker 1: the front, sometimes it has the flap in the back.

10
00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:34,839
Speaker 2: But it takes a real.

11
00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,920
Speaker 1: Genius to be like, hey, porqueano thos doves flap in

12
00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:39,800
Speaker 1: the front and the back.

13
00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:40,720
Speaker 2: That's right.

14
00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,559
Speaker 1: We're talking about Sherlock Holmes, with apologies, Captain America, the

15
00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,720
Speaker 1: first superhero and still to this day, probably the most iconic.

16
00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,240
Speaker 1: I'm thrilled to be joined as always buy my co

17
00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,320
Speaker 1: host mister Miles.

18
00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,920
Speaker 2: Grot Oh Boy, Sherlock Holmes. Sure Lock.

19
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,960
Speaker 3: For whatever reason, my strong depiction idea of Sherlock Holmes

20
00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:03,000
Speaker 3: is a bassett hound.

21
00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,360
Speaker 2: He's got you know what I mean?

22
00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,200
Speaker 3: Like because I feel like there was a picture of

23
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,160
Speaker 3: a basket hound dressed to Sherlock Holmes that I've never

24
00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:11,400
Speaker 3: shaken from my brain.

25
00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:13,320
Speaker 2: This is like feels like a poster. I would have

26
00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,160
Speaker 2: signed a doctor's office gruff, right, isn't that isn't?

27
00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,679
Speaker 3: Oh yeah it was at McGruff rocking. Wasn't there a

28
00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,000
Speaker 3: McGruff with a sherlock at though?

29
00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,840
Speaker 2: A deer stalker? I think? Yeah, I think did wear

30
00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:27,360
Speaker 2: a deer stalker? Yeah?

31
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,680
Speaker 1: Which a basket hound can stalk some deers.

32
00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,400
Speaker 2: It all works out. Maybe this is my Berenstain bears

33
00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:34,880
Speaker 2: or something.

34
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,640
Speaker 4: Is it worse to know deer stalker or know that

35
00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:39,080
Speaker 4: a fedora is really a trill be?

36
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,880
Speaker 2: It's the same energy. I understand energy, but worse.

37
00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,800
Speaker 1: I think deer stalker. I think that's all right. I'm

38
00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,120
Speaker 1: going to allow that one being It's not a fedora,

39
00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:55,600
Speaker 1: it's a trill be that sucks in a very special way.

40
00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,960
Speaker 4: What it is is I'm not wearing a fedora. Actually,

41
00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,840
Speaker 4: what I'm wearing is a true thank you.

42
00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, there is a there is a story. The hound

43
00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:09,240
Speaker 1: of Baskerville's as brand. The editor pointed out in our

44
00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,120
Speaker 1: third seat one of our very favorite guests, a hilarious

45
00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,400
Speaker 1: and brilliant producer and TV writer. You know him from

46
00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,760
Speaker 1: the Jos. This racist podcast, The New Starter Track Podcast.

47
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 2: It's Andrew. What's what's that picture? Is not it?

48
00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,040
Speaker 1: There are plenty of pictures of dogs. Sorry, super producer

49
00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,280
Speaker 1: casm put a picture and I know I know exactly

50
00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:34,359
Speaker 1: what you're talking about.

51
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:34,560
Speaker 2: That.

52
00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, Bassett basset hound is I think a basket

53
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:40,600
Speaker 3: hound somehow, and also.

54
00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,679
Speaker 2: Has become just Sherlock Holmes dog for some reason. I

55
00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,160
Speaker 2: don't know why, but yeah, because they're load to the

56
00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:45,919
Speaker 2: ground and they keep it.

57
00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,600
Speaker 1: He kind of has basset hound eyes too, He kind

58
00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:49,560
Speaker 1: of has those eyes.

59
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,760
Speaker 2: They love smoking cocaine and that's the.

60
00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,399
Speaker 1: He did it the sophisticated way he did. He did

61
00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,679
Speaker 1: a four percent solution I think it is, or some

62
00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,880
Speaker 1: percent solution of cocaine that he injected into his arm

63
00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,919
Speaker 1: and was just like like really kind of very invigorating.

64
00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,960
Speaker 4: The idea is just rush to my brain like a

65
00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,440
Speaker 4: like a loving depiction of how to inject cocaine. Right,

66
00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,679
Speaker 4: if I recall kind of vaguely, it's pretty.

67
00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,680
Speaker 1: Detailed pages of like and then the books hit right

68
00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,240
Speaker 1: as cocaine was becoming like this wonder drug. So it

69
00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,560
Speaker 1: wasn't illegal, like you could just go to the pharmacy

70
00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,080
Speaker 1: and be like give me the solution.

71
00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:36,880
Speaker 2: And I'm going to carry another eight ball.

72
00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, just just a small note on your intro, and

73
00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:42,920
Speaker 4: this is a self surfing note.

74
00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,760
Speaker 2: I do think you mean the first superhero in the West.

75
00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:47,400
Speaker 1: In the West, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I should I should

76
00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,640
Speaker 1: likely say that I want to get right into it

77
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,960
Speaker 1: because there's a lot to cover. I think we generally

78
00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,760
Speaker 1: know the same shit about Sherlock, deer Stalker, big old pipe,

79
00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,800
Speaker 1: skinny jean, slickback hairtive reasoning. But with the help of

80
00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,280
Speaker 1: our researcher Jam McNabb on the ones and twos on

81
00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,080
Speaker 1: this one, I think we got some good shit. So

82
00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,000
Speaker 1: this is gonna be the fourth fictional icon we've covered

83
00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,719
Speaker 1: in this series, probably i'd say the second most iconic,

84
00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,279
Speaker 1: but behind Santa.

85
00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,640
Speaker 2: A weird iconic hat can really do a lot.

86
00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,960
Speaker 1: I will say, like Santa got the hat, Sherlock got

87
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,239
Speaker 1: the hat, that is, but Santa took a very long,

88
00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,320
Speaker 1: weird time landing on his current form and popularity. I'd

89
00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,119
Speaker 1: say the same as kind of true of Miss Piggy.

90
00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,440
Speaker 1: I mean she took years and was like sort of

91
00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,320
Speaker 1: a background character for a number of years. Rkle probably

92
00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:48,880
Speaker 1: holds our record for fictional or not fictional, the fastest

93
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,719
Speaker 1: overnight impact, Like he showed up as a background character.

94
00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,000
Speaker 1: In the next day, kids were like dressing as him

95
00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,320
Speaker 1: in the mall. Sherlock first arrived in novels in eighteen

96
00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,919
Speaker 1: eighty seven and eighteen ninety that were like called Penny dreadfuls.

97
00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,080
Speaker 1: They were you know, dime store paperbacks.

98
00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:06,119
Speaker 2: That's what that means.

99
00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what Penny Dreadfuls were. They were well received,

100
00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,640
Speaker 1: but when his short stories hit in eighteen ninety one,

101
00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,720
Speaker 1: it was like Bieber going on Ellen. It was just

102
00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:21,920
Speaker 1: like fucking people went bunkers for this shift.

103
00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:23,800
Speaker 4: Because like being part of a Penny Dreadful is like

104
00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,919
Speaker 4: guesting on a track. You're like, that's like one of

105
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:28,920
Speaker 4: it's like a short story collection or no.

106
00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 1: Right, So his short Penny Dreadful, Penny Dreadful, I thought

107
00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,160
Speaker 1: it was a roller derby person. I think I think

108
00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,239
Speaker 1: it was just like a paperback knowledge. So the short

109
00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,800
Speaker 1: stories appeared in The Strand, which was a magazine that

110
00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,719
Speaker 1: had just a bunch of stories in it, and like

111
00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,600
Speaker 1: when they came out, like when a new Sherlock would drop,

112
00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,200
Speaker 1: they would have to change the library hours because people

113
00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:56,800
Speaker 1: would just be.

114
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 2: Like Harry Potter drop day kind of shit.

115
00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:06,320
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, but like every time just a short story

116
00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:11,479
Speaker 1: appeared in a magazine, the circulation for this magazine went crazy.

117
00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:13,680
Speaker 2: The thing that is truly crazy.

118
00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,640
Speaker 1: There's there's a bunch of stuff that's really weird about

119
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:22,240
Speaker 1: Sherlock's iconography, but one thing that is just like overall, Wow,

120
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,840
Speaker 1: he's not gone away, Like this is our oldest icon

121
00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,920
Speaker 1: besides Santa. But like, if you're even just like looking

122
00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,200
Speaker 1: at Santa in his current form, Sherlock in his current

123
00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,120
Speaker 1: form actually goes back further than Santa. And he's been

124
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:43,360
Speaker 1: he is the most portrayed fictional human in film history.

125
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,880
Speaker 1: He's been in two hundred and fifty four films. He's

126
00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,279
Speaker 1: neck and neck with Dracula for the most depicted character

127
00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,920
Speaker 1: of all time. But Dracula's got him barely edges him

128
00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:55,919
Speaker 1: out at two seventy two.

129
00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,680
Speaker 2: Put in all kinds of shit that he doesn't prolong in. Right,

130
00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:00,560
Speaker 2: you can just say John a in.

131
00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,040
Speaker 3: A comedy where you're like, oh, John Ham's in this

132
00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:04,680
Speaker 3: comedy too, Yeah.

133
00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,520
Speaker 1: I know, Robin Hood, you would think, but no, Robin Hood.

134
00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,360
Speaker 1: Sherlock has everybody except Drack. And we're going to talk

135
00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,920
Speaker 1: about Sherlock and Dracula, because they're linked in kind of

136
00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,720
Speaker 1: a weird way. But right from the start there's this

137
00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:24,119
Speaker 1: weird form of fandom where it's almost like fandom mixed

138
00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,840
Speaker 1: with like Talmudik scholarship on Sherlock, which if you've read

139
00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,680
Speaker 1: the stories, it's it's kind of like they're very just

140
00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,320
Speaker 1: basic page turnery, you know, like they're they're not these

141
00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,239
Speaker 1: like deep texts. They're kind of fun, shallow page turners.

142
00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:46,560
Speaker 1: But people start writing stories about Sherlock. People like publish

143
00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:51,000
Speaker 1: interviews with Sherlock Holmes, people are publishing biographies of Sherlock Holmes,

144
00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:56,960
Speaker 1: and it's like continued down to this day. Like a

145
00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,840
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight poll found that fifty eight percent

146
00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,880
Speaker 1: of British people believe Sherlock Holmes was a real guy.

147
00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,120
Speaker 1: Like there're Sherlock truthers.

148
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,960
Speaker 2: Motherfuckers took over the planet. Yeah, and they achieved in

149
00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:11,520
Speaker 2: Santa Yeah.

150
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,920
Speaker 1: So there was like a mixture at the time of

151
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,280
Speaker 1: people who actually believed he existed, and then there were

152
00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,760
Speaker 1: people who were like ironically believing that he existed and

153
00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,320
Speaker 1: he got some lucky breaks. I'm talking about him, like

154
00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,200
Speaker 1: he's a real person. For the purposes of this podcast, because.

155
00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,720
Speaker 2: I am a.

156
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,679
Speaker 1: Sherlock Truther, but like one of So there was this

157
00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,000
Speaker 1: eighteen ninety one story in the Journal. The speaker called

158
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,040
Speaker 1: the story was my Evening with Sherlock Holmes, and it

159
00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,120
Speaker 1: was an interview with Holmes and Conan Doyle that was

160
00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,200
Speaker 1: written by an anonymous writer, and the writer actually ended

161
00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,440
Speaker 1: up being JM. Barry, the guy who would go on

162
00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,280
Speaker 1: to write Peter Pan. So like there were good writers

163
00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:59,120
Speaker 1: who were like there were really like eventually accomplished writers

164
00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:06,240
Speaker 1: by in hard and like sort of propelling his image

165
00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,400
Speaker 1: and this character on in a way that you know,

166
00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 1: probably benefited him quite a bit. Arthur Conan Doyle and

167
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,040
Speaker 1: his publishers received letters from people looking for him.

168
00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:20,719
Speaker 2: The Arthur Conan.

169
00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,480
Speaker 1: Doyle was like, immediately like gifting the curse, He was like,

170
00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,240
Speaker 1: what the fuck? He had reportedly despaired that people thought

171
00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,560
Speaker 1: his fictional character was real. People would have asked me,

172
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,240
Speaker 1: People would be like, hey, could you put me in

173
00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,280
Speaker 1: touch with she Lock bro I think my wife's cheating.

174
00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,600
Speaker 3: I think my wife's cheating on me was Sherlock Holmes. Dude,

175
00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:41,520
Speaker 3: you think you can help me?

176
00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,920
Speaker 2: Is it? Because so I want to talk about this.

177
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, he gave him like a real ass address, right,

178
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:49,320
Speaker 4: he gave him a real address.

179
00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,840
Speaker 1: That is one of the theories that he gave him

180
00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 1: a real address that actually didn't exist for like a

181
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,200
Speaker 1: decade or so. It was like the numbers didn't go

182
00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,120
Speaker 1: up that high, but eventually they that high and so

183
00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,559
Speaker 1: and when that became a real like an actual real address,

184
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,880
Speaker 1: it was just like flooded with mail eight.

185
00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:11,480
Speaker 2: Nine.

186
00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, randomly, just the one of the few times I

187
00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,480
Speaker 4: went to I've been to London, like as a kid.

188
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,439
Speaker 4: I just walked by whatever three two one Baker Street

189
00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,839
Speaker 4: or whatever the fuck it is. I was like, oh, yeah,

190
00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:25,680
Speaker 4: Sherlock's house.

191
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,679
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, So this is where I want to talk

192
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:34,160
Speaker 1: about the idea of Sherlock as superhero and like he

193
00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:39,240
Speaker 1: I think he embodies this superpower that's maybe the most

194
00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,960
Speaker 1: intriguing superpower because it seems like it could actually exist,

195
00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,400
Speaker 1: which is the ability to use logic and reason to

196
00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:51,559
Speaker 1: know a definitive truth about something or about everything in

197
00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,480
Speaker 1: his case, and like he can look at your coat

198
00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,120
Speaker 1: sleeves and know what you do for a living, and

199
00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,760
Speaker 1: then from that can solve the mystery of like who

200
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,840
Speaker 1: stole your wallet and you know, like a superhero who

201
00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,600
Speaker 1: can fly is intriguing, but most sane people don't believe

202
00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,400
Speaker 1: they can actually fly. But with Sherlockian deductive reasoning, which

203
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,079
Speaker 1: he doesn't actually deduce things, well we'll talk more about

204
00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,959
Speaker 1: that later, but it's almost like the saner you are,

205
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,080
Speaker 1: the more you want to believe that sane rationality can

206
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,440
Speaker 1: defeat the chaos of reality. And then it's I also

207
00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,760
Speaker 1: think like that like appeals to everybody's you know, idea

208
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,439
Speaker 1: of like themselves and like I could probably figure this

209
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,640
Speaker 1: shit out. But it also I mean it's kind of

210
00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,800
Speaker 1: the entire promise of literature and writing, which was just

211
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,720
Speaker 1: kind of becoming democratically available at this time, like to

212
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,559
Speaker 1: be able to use words and thinking to make sense

213
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,280
Speaker 1: of the world and like tell a singular truth and

214
00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,920
Speaker 1: so that then leads like the Jam Barry thing.

215
00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:53,600
Speaker 4: Uh.

216
00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:59,600
Speaker 1: There's also like so many famous fans who like T. S. Eliott,

217
00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:04,280
Speaker 1: Isaac Asimov, Neil Gaiman are all like part of this

218
00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,480
Speaker 1: Sherlock Holmes society, which was just like a group of

219
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,840
Speaker 1: weird little guys who would like hang out and study

220
00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,440
Speaker 1: what they call it, they called Sherlock Holmes's stories, the

221
00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,720
Speaker 1: Sacred texts, which is again, if you read these things,

222
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:18,600
Speaker 1: it's wild.

223
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,040
Speaker 4: Can I ask a question, I haven't probably read an

224
00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,000
Speaker 4: actual Sherlock Holmes book for probably closer to decades. Now,

225
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,360
Speaker 4: does he do the thing that the Benedict Cumberbatch one does,

226
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,560
Speaker 4: which is like walk through the deduction steps?

227
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:33,640
Speaker 2: Yes he does.

228
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:39,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So the structure is really ingenious where he

229
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,120
Speaker 1: first solves a little mystery where like the person comes

230
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,959
Speaker 1: in and he's like, oh, I see you've lost your

231
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,240
Speaker 1: pocket watch and that you're you know, I can tell

232
00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,520
Speaker 1: that you're a typist and you're left handed and near sighted,

233
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,480
Speaker 1: and they're like, what the fuck? And he'll explain how

234
00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,440
Speaker 1: he got there real quick. And that is actually based

235
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,880
Speaker 1: on Sir Arthur Conan. Doyle was a doctor who studied

236
00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:09,000
Speaker 1: under this guy who could kind of he like taught

237
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,000
Speaker 1: this class in medical school where he was just like

238
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,720
Speaker 1: what would kind of cold read people and be like

239
00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,679
Speaker 1: this is how I know this guy is an alcoholic,

240
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,760
Speaker 1: Like he came in, his nose is bright red, Jim

241
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,400
Speaker 1: Blossom face, he's drinking now literally one of the things.

242
00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,199
Speaker 1: And then I saw and then I saw the bottle

243
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,720
Speaker 1: peeking out of his pocket, like damn, Surelock.

244
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,880
Speaker 4: Ship, Yeah, but I think that's a little bit like

245
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,120
Speaker 4: you know that the other way of looking at this

246
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,760
Speaker 4: is like you know, your Barie Weiss's and Joe Rogans

247
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,679
Speaker 4: of today. It's a thing that makes dumb people think

248
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,880
Speaker 4: they're smart exactly like oh my god, I could yeah,

249
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,040
Speaker 4: I could psychic essentially.

250
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,440
Speaker 1: So this is the big problem with Sherlock Holmes like that. So, uh,

251
00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,240
Speaker 1: just going back to like the power analogy. When Superman

252
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,120
Speaker 1: first came out, there was this rash of children jumping

253
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,719
Speaker 1: off their roofs like for after like seeing Superman, and

254
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,240
Speaker 1: I think the same thing has happened on a massive

255
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,880
Speaker 1: scale with Sherlock Holmes. But the problem is that the

256
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,560
Speaker 1: people who believed that they could do the superpower were cops,

257
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,840
Speaker 1: and like we have just a whole century of cops

258
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,080
Speaker 1: who thought they could like use deductive reasoning to solve

259
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:34,440
Speaker 1: crimes and could not. So just back to the like

260
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,960
Speaker 1: kind of border between like this guy being a real

261
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,280
Speaker 1: person and not a real person, first of all, Like

262
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:45,000
Speaker 1: do we have an example of that anywhere else other

263
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,680
Speaker 1: than like you know Santo where that's the whole game,

264
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:53,640
Speaker 1: But like, is there another fictional character where people like

265
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,480
Speaker 1: sixty percent of people into those they like years after

266
00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,280
Speaker 1: still like I believe, man.

267
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:05,520
Speaker 2: I still I believe in it is Jesus Christ. Yeah, yeah,

268
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,800
Speaker 2: I mean not like not religious numbers.

269
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, Brian the editor points to Bigfoot, which is another

270
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,640
Speaker 1: like but that one is explicitly that's the point of

271
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,560
Speaker 1: that character is like that they're hiding him from you.

272
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:19,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

273
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 1: So I mean so there's like the people who like

274
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,280
Speaker 1: kind of like.

275
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,760
Speaker 2: Someone like someone from like one of those tall tales,

276
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:32,920
Speaker 2: like Paul a Ghost Bill. Yeah, it's kind of like that.

277
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:38,080
Speaker 2: Yeah Washington, Am I right? I mean there probably is some.

278
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,040
Speaker 4: Version of like George Washington Cherry tree Ship or like

279
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,920
Speaker 4: Benjamin sanitized versions.

280
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,880
Speaker 2: Paul Revere is a good one from briand the editor.

281
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,000
Speaker 1: So at the there's like at the street level, like

282
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:53,960
Speaker 1: the people who are just like, God, damn, I need

283
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,360
Speaker 1: to find find out where this watch went. Let let

284
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,680
Speaker 1: me write to Sherlock. But then Sherlock Holme, I kind

285
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,640
Speaker 1: of like that. And then there's more ironic believers, like

286
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,520
Speaker 1: the people the you know, t s Eliot and stuff.

287
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,160
Speaker 1: They would call it the game, which was they would

288
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,640
Speaker 1: like all get together and treat Holmes as a historical

289
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:21,560
Speaker 1: character whose exploits were chronicled by his trustee companion, doctor

290
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,320
Speaker 1: John Watson, and they would be like, this is you know,

291
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,640
Speaker 1: sir Arthur Conan Doyle was actually Watson, and you know

292
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,880
Speaker 1: they came up with all these theories that they didn't

293
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,120
Speaker 1: actually believe in, but they like had fun doing it.

294
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,400
Speaker 1: I read an account of like one of these meetings

295
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 1: where like it was just an excuse for like people

296
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 1: to get drunk together and like being weird.

297
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:44,880
Speaker 2: Creeps like YouTube.

298
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,480
Speaker 1: Yet they played a game called Sardines, which was just

299
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,200
Speaker 1: hide and seek, but when you find the person who's hiding,

300
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 1: you have to hide with them, and then like soon

301
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,800
Speaker 1: there's only one person seeking and there's like thirty people

302
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,360
Speaker 1: in one closet, and they were like they seemed to

303
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:04,840
Speaker 1: really enjoy it, especially when women were involved. Oh Jesus Christ.

304
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,719
Speaker 1: But so the whole treating him like a real person

305
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,800
Speaker 1: begins with this Oxford divinity professor Ronald Knox who analyzed

306
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,840
Speaker 1: and scrutinized the home stories as if they were real.

307
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,720
Speaker 1: Which is interesting that it was a divinity professor because again,

308
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 1: the way fans interact with this character has more in

309
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,800
Speaker 1: common with like the study of biblical literature. Out to

310
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:31,320
Speaker 1: that point than how people reacted with fiction. His satire

311
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,200
Speaker 1: was intended as a way to satirize the modern scrutiny

312
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,399
Speaker 1: of the Old Testament by German scholars like Albert Schweitzer,

313
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,000
Speaker 1: which while that was the intent, it became a massive movement,

314
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,760
Speaker 1: not because people liked how hard it owned Albert Schweitzer,

315
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 1: but because they, you know, they wanted to believe. Like

316
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,879
Speaker 1: Mulder and Scully, I'm going to throw this out there.

317
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:57,800
Speaker 1: I don't think satire has ever worked even once. It

318
00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,000
Speaker 1: was just like damn dog, that would be so tough.

319
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh look at me being crazy.

320
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:08,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, But yeah, there's the Charlock Holmes Society in

321
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,399
Speaker 1: England or America. And then the other version is the

322
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,960
Speaker 1: Baker Street Irregulars. And again, like ts Eliott, the author

323
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,520
Speaker 1: of The Wasteland, I just want to stop down and

324
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:24,159
Speaker 1: read right, like this is somebody who's like writing famous

325
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:30,120
Speaker 1: epic poems and he is devoted to like these books

326
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,200
Speaker 1: that are like bordering on like young adults.

327
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,399
Speaker 4: He's like the guy that like like as soon as

328
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,320
Speaker 4: they allowed it, and I think it was in the

329
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,320
Speaker 4: UK he like wrote down his actual religion was like

330
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:42,800
Speaker 4: the force or whatever.

331
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 1: The fun yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but yeah, I just

332
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,119
Speaker 1: I went back and read through a couple of the

333
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,640
Speaker 1: most famous stories and they're they're just like very effective

334
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,960
Speaker 1: page turners, which again, like I just I do find

335
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,000
Speaker 1: that to be one of the most interesting contradictions. They're

336
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,560
Speaker 1: like fun, but what the fuck, Like, what the fuck people?

337
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:05,680
Speaker 1: That's the mystery I kind of want to solve here.

338
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:06,639
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just.

339
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 3: Because comparatively, like the kinds of stories that were coming

340
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,680
Speaker 3: out at the time were just not doing anything like this.

341
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely think that that's what. There's one that's

342
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,280
Speaker 1: called like the Society of redhead Men or something like that,

343
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,680
Speaker 1: and it's this like very odd mystery where this guy

344
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,960
Speaker 1: like gets a job where they're just like, you're redheaded.

345
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: So you come to this room and you copy down

346
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 1: the Encyclopedia Britannica and you know, and then we pay

347
00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,639
Speaker 1: you a really good wage. You just have to be

348
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 1: there for four hours a day. And it's just like immediately,

349
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,479
Speaker 1: if you've like seen any mysteries or read any mysteries,

350
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,639
Speaker 1: you're immediately like, oh, well, they're doing that to get

351
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 1: him out of the place where he is, because they're

352
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 1: they're like either robbing him or they have something and

353
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,679
Speaker 1: like that's that's exactly what it is. But it's just

354
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 1: they invented it wasn't a new trick what like they

355
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,320
Speaker 1: were the best to add it, and everything else has

356
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,280
Speaker 1: been like kind of build on top of that. So

357
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,200
Speaker 1: like the thing we talked about with the flint effect,

358
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,240
Speaker 1: where like culture gets built on top of culture. So

359
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 1: like John Belushi is not that funny to me because

360
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,959
Speaker 1: I have I grew up on Sari, which was like

361
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,320
Speaker 1: the metabolized version of that. Like I feel like there's

362
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:21,200
Speaker 1: there's some of that, but like he's still so fucking famous.

363
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 2: What were the other Penny dreadfuls? They were like Tarzan

364
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:24,840
Speaker 2: and like.

365
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,760
Speaker 1: So yeah there's I mean yeah, and there were other

366
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,160
Speaker 1: mysteries too, like and kind of ones from better writers

367
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 1: like Edgar Allan Poe wrote one before him with this

368
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:43,680
Speaker 1: guy Dupin and yeah, just terrible see August Dupin.

369
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 2: Which.

370
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 4: It's just the evidence that you gotta you got to

371
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,640
Speaker 4: inject cocaine because smoking law.

372
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, exactly, I think opium or whatever.

373
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,760
Speaker 1: At all times, I feel like it was kind of nodding, shit, dude,

374
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:02,439
Speaker 1: I want to start far Yeah, and I'm reading at

375
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 1: Sherlock Holmes Penny dreadful. So Sherlock has one of the

376
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 1: earlier or maybe the earliest version of the toxic fandom

377
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 1: that we experienced today. So Arthur Conan Doyle secretly hated Holmes,

378
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 1: resented the fact that he was so popular because he

379
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 1: considered himself a more serious minded writer of historical fiction,

380
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 1: and like that shit didn't sell as well, and like

381
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 1: he was, like, this is taking over my life, and

382
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,440
Speaker 1: so he decided to kill off Holmes in eighteen ninety three,

383
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,160
Speaker 1: like a few years after, like this whole craze starts

384
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 1: in the short story The Final Problem, because he felt

385
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 1: that his literary reputation was at stake. London is said

386
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 1: to have experienced its sunniest winter in eighteen ninety two

387
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 1: thanks to the London fog being temporarily blown away by

388
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 1: the wind created by the sheer number of vigorous jack

389
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 1: offhand motions from people here in Doyle worry about his

390
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 1: literary red mutation, but it is it's also an interesting,

391
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 1: like story, his writing of it, and that like he

392
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:09,919
Speaker 1: could write this shit in his sleep. He would like

393
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 1: write these stories in a day and then like you know,

394
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: spend the summer straining over this like historical fiction. And

395
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: I do think that's like an interesting kind of insight

396
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 1: into the creative process that like, you know, some things

397
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 1: that just like come naturally to you and you're just like, well,

398
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 1: that's that clearly sucks, and it's like, no, that's like

399
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 1: you hear this a lot of music where people write

400
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,880
Speaker 1: their hits like as a joke. You know, they're like, yeah,

401
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 1: this is this is the dumbest version of what this

402
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: record company's asking for from us, and then it's like, oh,

403
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,120
Speaker 1: that that ended up being our number one hit.

404
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 2: Right the tub something phenomenon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

405
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: We are saying album Eleanor by the Turtles Stuck in

406
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 1: the Middle with you was those guys making fun of

407
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan.

408
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 4: The kind of have to imagine anyone who's ever written

409
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 4: a Law and Order episode is a little like, yeah,

410
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 4: I don't know if this is Mike.

411
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 2: Writing it with one hand while making the jackoff Ham

412
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 2: motion with the other. But it's also like people love

413
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 2: fucking Law and Order. It's great. It's yeah, exactly, you

414
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 2: know copaganda. Yeah, so you know, at the end.

415
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 1: Of this Sherlock Holmes story, the final problem Charlock Holmes

416
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 1: falls to his death while battling Professor Moriarty at the

417
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 1: Reichenbach Falls in Switzerland. Pretty definitive, like it's like, oh yeah,

418
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 1: he's big time.

419
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 2: It did not go over well.

420
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: There was a huge public backlash. Twenty thousand people canceled

421
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: their subscription to the Strand magazine. People formed Let's Keep

422
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: Holmes Alive clubs when he was killed off in the story.

423
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 1: Newspapers including the Boston Post, published obituaries for him.

424
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: Wow.

425
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 1: According to Wikipedia, the strong negative response from readers was

426
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,479
Speaker 1: unlike any previous public reaction to a fictional event. And

427
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 1: it doesn't say citation needed next to that.

428
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's a fact.

429
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: A fact, brother, But people wore black armbands to mourn

430
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: him allegedly. Uh and yeah, Like previous to this, people

431
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: just accepted what happened in books. But this time, because

432
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: there was this weird relationship with him where they wanted

433
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: him to be real, everyone like fucking freaked out demanded

434
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 1: he come back. Kind of anticipating the Snyder cut bros.

435
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: Kind of anticipating the controversy around the first design of

436
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: Sonic that looked like total shit. Yeah, but this was

437
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 1: more of a Sonic situation in that they were right,

438
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: and the creators caved and made the right decision, and

439
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: after years of public pressure, he wrote another home centric book,

440
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 1: The Hounds of Baskerville's.

441
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 5: But that was the I think that's the only one

442
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 5: I've read that's the comeback, right, and it was he

443
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 5: was still not willing to like bring him back from

444
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 5: the dead, so he just made it a prequel.

445
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 3: Oh, just put a little trampoline at the bottom of

446
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 3: the right yet.

447
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he writes him back into this story. He

448
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,959
Speaker 1: was like writing it as a non home story and

449
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,239
Speaker 1: then needed a strong protagonist and was like, what if

450
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: I put Sherlock Holmes in this?

451
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 2: People were like yeah, man.

452
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then he was like, okay, you owe me

453
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: twice as much money. They were like sure, like whatever

454
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: you want. There's like so many instances of him writing

455
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: these books where he's like and I'm going to ask

456
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: for this insane amount of money and like, obviously they're

457
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: not going to give me that, and like by the

458
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: time like he sits down from sending the letter off,

459
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 1: like they're like, here's the money, just like give us

460
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: the fucking book. He's kind of getting hosed. Like in

461
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: the early days because he doesn't realize like how fucking

462
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: popular it is because he doesn't want to because he

463
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: doesn't want it to be like as popular.

464
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:16,959
Speaker 2: It's like a man in need of an agent.

465
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 1: See I know, right, we're going to get to a

466
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 1: literary agent at this time in a second. But he

467
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: is eventually convinced to bring Holmes back to life for

468
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: good by an American publisher who offered him forty five

469
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 1: thousand dollars for a new batchel of stories.

470
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 3: And he was like, okay, all right, yeah great, I

471
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 3: love that. Yeah, in like the nineteen hundred Jesus Christ.

472
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: He yeah, he survived the battle with Moriarty and pretended

473
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: to be dead for like eight years for some reason.

474
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 4: You is there any like like theorizing or speculation on

475
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 4: I mean, because we're there like arch nemesies in the

476
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 4: same way.

477
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 2: I feel like maybe that's that's fels like sort of

478
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 2: modern in that.

479
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Moriarty thing, because yeah, there's like these characters

480
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: there's aye, yeah, I don't I don't know who Tarzan

481
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: was fighting, but not like seems like you want this

482
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: episode to be about Tarzan and.

483
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm sorry, or who the fuck was Conan the

484
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 4: Barbarian was just generally like fighting.

485
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just saying like like like does Moriarty scan

486
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: for you guys? Like I know I knew him from

487
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: the Benedict Cumberbatch one, but I didn't really know him

488
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 1: before that. It wasn't like a Lex Luthor the Joker

489
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: thing where it's like it's supposed to be. Yeah, I

490
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 1: think it, and probably with a bunch of people who

491
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 1: are more familiar with Sherlock Holmes it is. But for

492
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: me it's just like it does feel like there's you know,

493
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: the books are written in a smart way where the

494
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: stories are written in a smart way where it's like

495
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: and this is, of course the second most dangerous man

496
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: in London, and like it's they're not like spending a

497
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: lot of time on the low or he's just telling

498
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: you like this is this is something I've been pursuing

499
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: for decades. Incidentally, the plot for the story where he

500
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: comes back from life was written by Jean Lecky, who

501
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: was a young woman that Conan Doyle was having an

502
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: affair with while his wife was dying of tuberculosis.

503
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: Oh I love what a modern story. Yeah, that's the

504
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: most London ship I've ever heard and it's got a

505
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 2: tuberculosis in it, so yes, right? Was she was?

506
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 3: She was she like an aspiring writing novelist or this

507
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 3: also sounds so Hollywood too, I know it's like, yeah,

508
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 3: my assistant, like I was having this Dudents having an

509
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 3: affair of his assistant and actually gave her a spot

510
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 3: in the writer's room.

511
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: He's a He eventually did the right thing and married her,

512
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: so you know, dying. Yeah, yeah, it.

513
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 4: Does feel like like, I mean, right, that's That's the

514
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 4: the way people have dealt with this malaise in contemporary

515
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 4: times is just hiring people to write the book you

516
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 4: don't want to write and continuing to collect the line

517
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 4: and share the money, right, which is the move?

518
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: Yeah?

519
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, for him, it was like he just like wrote

520
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: them fast and begrudgingly, and people were like, you're a king,

521
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: You're the king.

522
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: Man, the king Man.

523
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 4: For the new season of Sherlock, Penny Dreadful. Yeah exactly.

524
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 3: Hey, guess what, Gene, you know something about me? I

525
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 3: fucked the way I write fast and what.

526
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: Was said begrudgingly. We covered the Dupin thing.

527
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: It is.

528
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: Dupin was the Edgar character who smoke the pipe and

529
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: followed was followed around by his roommate, who also narrates

530
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: the story. So there's kind of a lot of him

531
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 1: in there. And you can tell that Arthur Conan doy

532
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: knew it because this is a quote from the very

533
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: first Sherlock Holmes novel. Watson says, it's simple enough as

534
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: you explain it, I said, smiling, you remind me of

535
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: Edgar Allan Poe's Dupin. I had no idea that such

536
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: individuals did exist outside of stories. Sherlock Holmes rose and

537
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: lit his pipe. No doubt, you think that you are

538
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: complimenting me in comparing me to Dupin.

539
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: He observed.

540
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: Now, in my opinion, Dupin was a very inferior fellow,

541
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: breaking in on his friend's thoughts with a Poe remark

542
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: after a quarter of an hour's silence, is really very

543
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: showy and superficial. He had some analytical genius, no doubt,

544
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: but he was by no means such a phenomenon as

545
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: Poe appeared to imagine.

546
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 4: Oh, when I got the blunderbuss, I know shop.

547
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 2: Hold on, yeah, three minute reload time.

548
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: He did later acknowledge that he owed Poe a debt

549
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: and was like, yeah, I guess I'm really rich. Now,

550
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: so I can admit that I writ him off. Meg

551
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: ground Poe was a great writer in the Master of All.

552
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: The other inspiration was this medical professor, doctor Joseph Bell,

553
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: who Holmes his observational style was pulled straight from him,

554
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: who trained himself to identify accents of patients and studied

555
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,719
Speaker 1: people's hands because callouses or other marks could help him

556
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: determine their occupation. Other clues included suntans and whether or

557
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: not a man removed his hat at the doctor's approach.

558
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: He called this the method, and Doyle saw this while

559
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: being like a mediocre medical student and his assistant.

560
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess it's impressive, I guess to them, right,

561
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 3: But for us, I'm like, that's only because there was

562
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 3: like fifteen fucking.

563
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 2: Jobs back there, right yeah, yeah? And you are you

564
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 2: a drunk? Are you a blacksmith? Do you are you

565
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 2: running from your dad? To you again? You know? You

566
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 2: a doctor? It's like how drunk was a w two profession?

567
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: I could tell that this guy's the town drunk because

568
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,239
Speaker 1: he's wearing a barrel, ringing a bell and screen. I mean,

569
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: incomprehensible nonsense. Yeah, so I will say that these are

570
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: the other than his cocaine use. My favorite parts of

571
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: Sherlock Holmes stories are his cold reading of people because

572
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: you just like you know, He's just like, I can

573
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: tell you rode your bike here by the way the

574
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: rubber is pushed forward on the soles of your shoes,

575
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: which is like impossible, but like you get the immediate

576
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: you know. One of them that I remember is like,

577
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: you're a laborer. I can tell by the way your

578
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: right hand is bigger than your left from like working

579
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: the muscles in it, which I could propose another explanation

580
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: for that, but in the story as I read it,

581
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: it actually like that part doesn't. I can tell you're

582
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: a Gooners on North London. Gooner London is red. But

583
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: like the cold reading doesn't often come that much in

584
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: like the cases are like plotted in a way that's

585
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: like kind of I guess the plotting of the cases

586
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: is the thing that, like so much of the rest

587
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: of mystery fiction has been built on top of.

588
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 2: But right it's like procedural structure, kind of nailed.

589
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 4: It's like you go in, you're introduced to the case,

590
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 4: you investigate, there's one red herring, there's a twist, and

591
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 4: then you're off to the races.

592
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: To the end, and it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, and

593
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: it's like the cold read is proven right immediately, so

594
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: you don't really have time to like think that much

595
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: about it.

596
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: The person's just like, by god, he's right. How did

597
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 2: you know that's the barrel that you're wearing, sir?

598
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: You're actively pissing the barrel that you're wearing. It's also

599
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: it's hard not to mention that there's an unproven, yet

600
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: pervasive Internet rumor that doctor Bell the original Sherlock Holmes

601
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: or the doctor that Sherlock Holmes was based on. There's

602
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: a persistent rumor that he was related to Glenn Bell,

603
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: founder of Taco Bell.

604
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: No fucking way.

605
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: It's a rumor that we weren't able to substantiate. But

606
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: I can't not bring it up for.

607
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: The conspiracy theorist. What's the tenuous connection that they even

608
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 2: they got the same last name.

609
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,959
Speaker 3: Oh, it's purely just that. It's not even like i'd

610
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,359
Speaker 3: argue with that. Somebody went to America maybe or.

611
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: Glenn William Bell was a direct descendant of Joseph Bell,

612
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 1: a medical genius who lived in the early eighteen hundreds

613
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 1: and is remembered as the inspiration for Sir Arthur Conan

614
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: Doyle's famous character Sherlock Holmes that came from I remember

615
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: the Inland Empire on Facebook.

616
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, you know, all right, this has got to

617
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 4: be the basis for like a TV show called like

618
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 4: the Guacamolele Mysteries and right right, right, yeah.

619
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 2: It has to be.

620
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 4: In contemporary times, someone wakes up with the memories of

621
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 4: both the founder of Taco Bell and.

622
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,959
Speaker 1: I mean, hey, you're the writer, man, this is we're

623
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: all the writer today.

624
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,479
Speaker 2: All right, let's get to his cocaine use. Okay, thank god,

625
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: we don't want to spend twenty five minutes.

626
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 4: So I remember they spent a lot of time talking

627
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 4: about his violin strings.

628
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: Now that we're talking about it, right, yeah, he did

629
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 2: play the violin violent.

630
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: I feel like if we're ranking the most iconic parts

631
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: of him, it is the deer stalker, the pipe, and

632
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 1: then magnifying glass then yeah, then violin.

633
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 4: Violin only because they didn't want us the versions that

634
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 4: we were given. They really didn't want us to concentrate

635
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 4: on the cocaine. But the cocaine, the hun is awfully hot.

636
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 4: Cocaine should be between hat and pipe. In my opinion,

637
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 4: that should be number one on the list.

638
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 3: To Sherlock, it was by cocaine number one. Yeah yeah

639
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 3: in my hat. Let me get my other shit on

640
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 3: right first.

641
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 1: It's in the second Holmes novel, The Sign of Four.

642
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: The detective tells Watson that he enjoys a seven percent

643
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 1: solution because he finds it so transcendentally stimulating and clarifying

644
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 1: to the mind, and he offers some cocaine to Watson.

645
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: She finds him with a needle in a arm. He's like, yeah, fuck, bro,

646
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 1: he's Watson's not into it.

647
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 3: Oh, it's just cocaine. Okay, that's fine, Oh exactly. Oh

648
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 3: seven percent. Oh well then shit, yeah, let me tie

649
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 3: off as well.

650
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly.

651
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: It's like the equivalent of a Marlborough light is merely

652
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: a seven percent solution of cocaine. But this was so

653
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: it started as like a miracle drug because they didn't

654
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: have anesthetic that wouldn't put you to sleep in a

655
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: way that you might not wake up from at the time,

656
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: and so they were like, this one is good because

657
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: the person stays awake. Well shit, actually they seem like

658
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 1: wide awake, easy, and so at this time they were

659
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: weren't just thrown in stories. There's an eighteen ninety six

660
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: recipe for homemade cold cure that consisted of ground coffee, menthol,

661
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: powdered sugar, and cocaine.

662
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 4: I can't have that much sugar, man, Come on, yea, yeah,

663
00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 4: that's easy.

664
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 2: Do a bummer, do a bump, eat a powder donut,

665
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 2: have a coffee, smoke a fucking menthol.

666
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, just never stop shitting.

667
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: I guess he eventually kicks the cocaine habit. You see

668
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: it in the original stories.

669
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 2: But like, is there an intervention episode? Well, like Watson's

670
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 2: kind of a fucking bummer and He's like immediately like

671
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 2: that stuff will kill you. Man. Ah fuck oh, I

672
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 2: say the fuck out of here.

673
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, So what you're what I'm hearing is there's a

674
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 4: gap in the cannon for Sherlock is in rehab the

675
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 4: most annoying person in rehab.

676
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: Actually that's been written. Every every part of every possible

677
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: part of his life has been fleshed out. Where's a

678
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six film, The Seven Percent Solution, based on

679
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: the novel of the same name. In it, homes gets

680
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 1: a little help from Sigmund Freud in getting.

681
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: Off of cocaine. Can't stop.

682
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: He's otherfuckers cannot stop talking and thinking about Sherlock Holmes.

683
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 1: It's so wid like they have a fucking little church

684
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: that is just like putting pressure. Like it's like the

685
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 1: scientology approach where they have like all these famous writers

686
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: and thinkers who just spending time thinking about Sherlock Holmes

687
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: and like whether he was a real god or not.

688
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 2: Seven percent solution sounds like some story about like Reinhardt

689
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 2: Heydrich getting here. I know.

690
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 1: But the other thing that I thought was notable from

691
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 1: these stories is like he's just it is kind of

692
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: law and order ish and that he's just like grabbing

693
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: shit from the headlines, like from around the world. So

694
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: like cocaine is one of those things because it's just

695
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: like this thing that everybody's doing or trying or taking out.

696
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 1: There's a lot of stories about like the wars, like

697
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: the evils of Empire coming home to roost, like people

698
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: who are injured in foreign wars, or like get like

699
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: fucked up in four More the KKK an appearance in

700
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: one which side they're the bad guys. So it's actually

701
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 1: because he's fiddling with them. He treats them like hydra

702
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: like they have their own like superpower essentially, where like

703
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: they keep killing people. In the story the Four Orange Pips,

704
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: people keep like dying mysteriously, and the KKK is able

705
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: to like always make it look like an accident. And

706
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: then like at the end, he's like chasing them, trying

707
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: to get them in London, and then like their boat

708
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: is seen shipwrecked at sea, and it's like the KKK

709
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,280
Speaker 1: there they have an amazing superpower of like being able

710
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: to make deaths look like accidents.

711
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 3: All these people of color committed suicide by hanging. Like

712
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 3: what the are they trying to say?

713
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 4: You just you just need a hook, I guess, but yeah,

714
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 4: sort of opposite.

715
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he's just pulling ship from the headlines and

716
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: just putting them into these like very broad like good

717
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: versus evil.

718
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 2: So he's like, KKK is this evil organization and woa

719
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 2: whoa whoa don't get political. Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, Hey,

720
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 2: get back to the cocaine jokes man.

721
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: I think I think the KKA for a long time

722
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 1: like benefited from people just being like wha fuck man.

723
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: They are like so evil and like scary looking, and

724
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: that they like when you look at the actual documents

725
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: of the time, they're just like the biggest group of

726
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: like bundling, yeah, dipshit, like tripping over their own dicks

727
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: out of a sense of inferiority.

728
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 2: That's every fascist of all time. Yeah, exactly. The fact

729
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 2: that we keep getting conquered by them is sort of

730
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 2: on us.

731
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: It is pretty frustrating. His first novel was about Mormonism,

732
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 1: like the Mormon like that he didn't really know what

733
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: he was doing yet. In the first novel, it's called

734
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 1: a Study in Scarlet, which is a great title, but

735
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: the book is just like one half Sherlock Holmes's mystery,

736
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: and then the second half he just like slashes back

737
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: to the crime happening in Utah, and like Brigham Young

738
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: just like is a.

739
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: Character who like comes in yeah yeah, yeah. So this

740
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 2: is fan fixed straight up. This is just like okay, okay,

741
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: who do we got who's in the news?

742
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, it's like kind of news fan fix. So,

743
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: I mean maybe that's also what contributed to people think

744
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: he was real, is though, like he was throwing in

745
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: details of reality in a way that might have.

746
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 3: But it's also it's just law and order too, just

747
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 3: ripped from the headlines, Well it's a law order free

748
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 3: like people suing you. Yeah yeah, but more in the

749
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 3: sense of like that's the thing where people are like,

750
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 3: I kind of this this is happening sort of ambiently

751
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 3: in the culture right now.

752
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 4: This is even more interesting because of the depictions all

753
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,439
Speaker 4: the law and order cast. Probably enough people believe they're

754
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 4: real people.

755
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 2: That's true. Yeah, yeah, right, and be like I want

756
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:54,959
Speaker 2: him lawyer, Like what is Marishka Targetay? What the fuck

757
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 2: did you just say to me?

758
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 1: But speaking of ambiently in the culture, just a couple

759
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: of de tales of like what was going on in

760
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: the literary world at this time. So, after this first book,

761
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 1: which kind of sucks, is like half flashback to Utah,

762
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: place he's never been clearly like just written about this

763
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: church that he like doesn't understand at all. He's invited

764
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: to this dinner with a publisher and it's him and

765
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: Oscar Wilde and like a couple other writers and they're like, hey,

766
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: we found this like loophole where due to like publishing rights,

767
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: like we want to start publishing novels as like magazines

768
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 1: as basically the penny dreadful thing. And so they both

769
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 1: get assigned a novel, and Doyle turns around the second

770
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: Sherlock Holmes book, the first good one, the one where

771
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: it's introduced that he does cocaine, and Oscar Wilds turns

772
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: around the picture of Dorian Gray.

773
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, in the same dinner. Damn.

774
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: It feels like there's just something in the water at

775
00:42:52,400 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: this time, and it was Collar collaring cocaine. But I

776
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: want to circle back to the Dracula thing, because again,

777
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: these are the two fictional characters that have been portrayed

778
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: the most in the history of like film, like you know,

779
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: American film. But like these characters that are, as far

780
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: as I'm concerned, old, they're old as fuck.

781
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

782
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: So there's this book Holmes to Sherlock, terrible name, but

783
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: it's a good book where it's just tells the story

784
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: about the creation of Sherlock Holmes, like by all the

785
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: different people involved, like publishers, illustrators, Conan Doyle. There's like

786
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: an illustrator who gives us the cap. There's an actor

787
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: who gives us the pipe. A play years later gives

788
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 1: us Elementary, my dear Watson. But there's this moment around

789
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: the time that Doyle is like trying to keep Sherlock Dead,

790
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: where he is writing to this other author's manager, and

791
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,959
Speaker 1: they like mentioned that this manager is also like trying

792
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 1: to get his own literary career off the ground and

793
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: had just published a book. And that manager's name is

794
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: fucking Bram Stoker. Oh the book he had just written

795
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: was Dracula. So like they Doyle was like, oh, by

796
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: the way, I read your book, fucking rips.

797
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 2: Good job.

798
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,919
Speaker 1: Good But like that made me like realize how weird

799
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 1: it is that like these two characters who go on

800
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: to be the most popular and successful fictional characters of

801
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: the twentieth century are invented at the same time, like

802
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 1: in the same place, basically like coming out of the

803
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: same same scene, which wouldn't be that weird if they

804
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: were like similar, but like they couldn't be more different

805
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: from each other, like their one creates like horror, and

806
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: like is like they just they're.

807
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 2: Totally bunch the hockeys. I don't care about thank you.

808
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 2: I didn't even know Bram Stoker was irish.

809
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 6: I was like Abraham Stoker, Yeah, I guess, I guess

810
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 6: it's incidence that cocaine was legal these days.

811
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, cocaine was just made legal and all of a sudden,

812
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 1: they were like, holy shit, I love.

813
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 2: These fucking stories, dude. The one guy where the party

814
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 2: never ends Dracula.

815
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the the idea that like he wrote

816
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 4: a novel and however quick amount of time is like okay, yeah,

817
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:18,760
Speaker 4: checks out.

818
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: But there's this theory of history called like the axial

819
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: age that points out that basically, like Confucius and China,

820
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: the Buddha in India, all the famous philosopher like Plato

821
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 1: and Homer and like all these people, and then like

822
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: a bunch of the prophets in the Old Testament all

823
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: existed in the same century.

824
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,320
Speaker 2: Like they just on in different parts of the world.

825
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 1: But it was basically like all these people who like

826
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: created these forms of thinking, like we're all operating at

827
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: the same time essentially, and like different places.

828
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 2: And it's just like I don't know.

829
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: I think because of the way we understand history, we

830
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 1: like think of it as like individual characters operating, you know,

831
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: because we like understand things through story, and so we

832
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,760
Speaker 1: view it as like interweaving stories. But like I feel

833
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: like there's also it's like harder to research and even

834
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: like speculated about because of the shape of like our

835
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: brains and how we like understand things through stories, but

836
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: like there's something to an understanding of things as like

837
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,240
Speaker 1: that that was just the firmament of the time.

838
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, you know.

839
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 4: Or it could just be like you know, presumably the

840
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 4: ratio of good brains doesn't change that much on Earth.

841
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 4: But I mean, it could just be like they were,

842
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 4: they preceded like an era of stability and prosperity within

843
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 4: which within which time their stories were lionized and perpetuated.

844
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 4: Whereas you know, Foda zero points zero just died in

845
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 4: a ditch.

846
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly.

847
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: That's like it's we tend to like prefer the great

848
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: Man theory of history, but it's like a lot of

849
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: times it's just like a certain confluence of like time

850
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: and history and like culture dreaming up these things because

851
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: the moment is right, like human culture has been baked

852
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,479
Speaker 1: to the point where this is a thing that they're

853
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: ready to happen, Like I feel like characters come out

854
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: of the oven.

855
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 3: Because we also need that because the alternative is thinking

856
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 3: that the universe is random and that's too scary, so

857
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 3: you need it to be These men were great because

858
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 3: their actions made a difference in their fate.

859
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we believe that Edison.

860
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: We believe Edison invented the light bulb because even and

861
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: like ignore the fact that like three people invented the

862
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 1: light bulb at the same time in different places around

863
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 1: the world, and you know, because we just want it

864
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,919
Speaker 1: to be like thing that we have control over.

865
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 4: Elon Musk is the most epic bacan person who has

866
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 4: ever existed.

867
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, we just needed to believe that. Yeah, yeah, that's true.

868
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 2: All right.

869
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 1: I want to get to Sherlock Holmes's influence on criminology

870
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: and how we understand crime, because it's not so good.

871
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 3: His greatest contribution is this maybe his most potent contribution.

872
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: It could be so.

873
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 1: First of all, like they advertised his first novel as

874
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: something detectives should all read, right, and people also like

875
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 1: why when they tell the story of this a lot

876
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 1: of the times they'll overstate, like how much like I

877
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: think English crime fighting was very much in the dark ages,

878
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: and like again he's jumping on things that are like

879
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: new in that world, like fingerprints and stuff like that.

880
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: But just to be clear, The first forensic manual, titled

881
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: The Washing Away of Wrongs, was published in China in

882
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: twelve forty seven, and in Germany in fifteen oh seven

883
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: there was a requirement to present and deserve medical evidence

884
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: in murder cases. It was just like they were just

885
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: kind of getting around to it. In England five decades

886
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: before Holmes debut the first English guideline, The King's College

887
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: Manual Principles of Forensic Medicine, were published in eighteen forty four.

888
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 1: But he like it wasn't it wasn't widely known or popular,

889
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 1: so he was just again good at seeing what was

890
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: happening in the world and weaving it into a compelling

891
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: story where it was like very basic good versus evil,

892
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: truth versus chaos.

893
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 4: Well, it's also i mean, like the same reason a

894
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 4: lot of copaganda is at and medical dramas are popular

895
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 4: is that it's very comforting to people to think that

896
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 4: these people are both smart and good and right yeah right, yeah.

897
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like and justice prevails on some level.

898
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, And otherwise you couldn't deal with society if you

899
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 3: didn't think that.

900
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

901
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,919
Speaker 1: Jam pointed out that like a lot of the things

902
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: that we think of as evidence have been already disproven.

903
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,959
Speaker 1: There's this a criminology journal in the eighties that wrote

904
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: an article called Sherlock Holmes started it all about like

905
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: the like celebrating forensics and then goes on to describe

906
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 1: how a suspect's tooth marks were as valid as a fingerprint,

907
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 1: And in twenty ten's Sherlock Centric Elementary episode, he's testing

908
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: for bite marks and implying that they're as good as

909
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: DNA evidence. Bite marks are holy holly subjected.

910
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 2: Well, Sherlock did start it all in that modern policing

911
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 2: is entirely based off of like pseudoscience, that's post hawk

912
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 2: reasoning or whatever they want to decide of.

913
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: So they did this test where they discovered that bites

914
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 1: produced twenty three entirely different marks, each one bearing little

915
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,479
Speaker 1: resemblance to the rest. When they did, like tried used

916
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,280
Speaker 1: twenty three, they did twenty three bites with the same mouth,

917
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: and then they had they also like asked somebody to

918
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 1: identify bitemarks from the same thing, and of the one

919
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: hundred cases they examined, the analysis reached unanimous agreement on

920
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,760
Speaker 1: four four of a hundred.

921
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:11,399
Speaker 2: Great hit rate.

922
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, people should lose their freedom over that. Yes,

923
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: Bye marks still being used today. And so it's like

924
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: we talk about the CSI bias where like shows that are like, well,

925
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 1: you know, it bleeds into like how juris think about things.

926
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,720
Speaker 1: They're like, well, there should be this sort of evidence,

927
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: and like that sort of evidence is exactly right, And

928
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: I feel like that whole idea of we can definitively

929
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:46,919
Speaker 1: prove things with these tactics kind of starts with Sherlock Holmes.

930
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 1: I will just just a couple of the methods that

931
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: he uses in his stories. He was a believer in physiognomy,

932
00:51:54,640 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 1: which us structure to assess character and mental capacity for knowledge. Yeah,

933
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 1: the discredited racist pseudoscience involving cranial measurements that was used

934
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: as a justification for slavery in the Adventure of the

935
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: Blue Carbuncle. This is again, this is the guy that

936
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 1: fucking ts Eliot was, like, let us go study the

937
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,240
Speaker 1: sacred Text. Holmes observes that a man must be highly

938
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 1: intellectual because he wears a big hat. I have no

939
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: doubt that I am very stupid, but I must confess

940
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: that I am unable to follow you. For example, how

941
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:29,760
Speaker 1: did you deduce that this man was an intellectual? For answer,

942
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,359
Speaker 1: Holmes clapped the hat upon his head. It came right

943
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 1: over the forehead and settled upon the bridge of his nose.

944
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 1: It is a question of cubic capacity. A man with

945
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: so large a brand must have something in it. Swish

946
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: can't argue without bonds. Was a genius.

947
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 2: I mean he just he literally sounds like a cop today.

948
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, yes, like that's just so smug and so certain.

949
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 3: But using pseudoscience. I want to get to my favorite

950
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 3: example in a second. He but just other methods he used.

951
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 3: He solved cases using graphology, which is the debunked beliefs

952
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,839
Speaker 3: that handwriting can determine age, gender, health, and even nationality.

953
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 2: Well, hmmm, I might, I'm not. I feel like a

954
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 2: lot of Japanese boomers have the same way they write English.

955
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:18,720
Speaker 2: I gotta say, yeah.

956
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,839
Speaker 1: My mom and her sisters, all right, exactly the same

957
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 1: education system.

958
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you get product of an education system.

959
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can kind of tell, because I'm like, man,

960
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 3: every it's funny man of the Japanese feel of a

961
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 3: certain age.

962
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 2: They have the exact same path.

963
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 3: I've been writing, and my dad's head writing is so

964
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 3: different because well yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. Not to say

965
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 3: that they'd be like they'd be like this guy's from Michigan.

966
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 3: Yeah right, yeah, yeah, it's that old Michigan chicken scratch

967
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 3: he's got.

968
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: At one point, he's able to solve the case after

969
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 1: concluding that two sets of handwriting were made by blood relative.

970
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, like these people are related.

971
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's so funny because I remember in junior

972
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 3: high being the way my friend wrote because I thought

973
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 3: it looked cooler too. Yeah, it is so funny how

974
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 3: those things, like when I used to do rather than

975
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 3: dot my eyes dress circles.

976
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 2: I mean, it.

977
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 4: Has like a the grain of truth is you are

978
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 4: taught to write, and if you have similar writing as someone,

979
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,479
Speaker 4: there's something was in common at some point.

980
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

981
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, but to be like this is a forty one

982
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 3: year old black as man, it's yeah.

983
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: Nearly a quarter of the twenty six hundred and one

984
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: people who have been exonerated since nineteen eighty nine were

985
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted based on false or misleading forensic evidence like

986
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 1: bite marks. Also what just another kind of example of

987
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 1: his deductive reasoning is that he explores the theory that

988
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 1: the moods of dogs could be passed down by the

989
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 1: moods of owners. So that's again, So I do just

990
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 1: want to stop here and talk about the detective Giuliano

991
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 1: Milini from the Amanda Knox documentary. Have you guys seen

992
00:54:55,800 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 1: the Amanda Knox documentary? His existence makes me very suspicious

993
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 1: that the history of crime and punishment is just littered

994
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: with complete idiots ruining the lives of innison people because

995
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,439
Speaker 1: they read Sherlock Holmes and like believed it a little

996
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: too hard. So he's the main guy who's like driving

997
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 1: the prosecution of Amanda Knox. At one point, he deduces

998
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: that the killer must have been a woman because the

999
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 1: body is covered by a blanket, and only a woman

1000
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 1: would have covered the body because I guess, like her

1001
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 1: delicate nature would prevent her from wanting to look at

1002
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: what she'd just done.

1003
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like.

1004
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 1: I remember at the time being like that sort of

1005
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: bullshit sounds familiar. And then later in the documentary they

1006
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: show this like b roll of him and he's like

1007
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 1: wearing a hunting jacket, smoking this big Sherlock Holmes pipe,

1008
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:48,239
Speaker 1: and I was like, ah, yes, yes, of course, But

1009
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 1: I just I feel like the past one hundred and

1010
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 1: fifty years and it's not like just Sherlock Holmes obviously,

1011
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: like he gave rise to a lot of detective fiction

1012
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: and even a story structure where it's like he discovered

1013
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: an incredible like a thing that would be impossible for

1014
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 1: him to know, and then he explains like exactly how

1015
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,319
Speaker 1: he did it, right, Like, I think the thing that's

1016
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 1: seductive about Sherlock Holmes is the thing that is seducing

1017
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 1: these dipshits.

1018
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's also like it's dipshits will gravitate towards law

1019
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 4: enforcement who are extra dipshitty, and like this makes them

1020
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 4: feel like they can do a thing, which is you know,

1021
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 4: the whole thesis.

1022
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:29,839
Speaker 2: I guess, so what we've been talking about.

1023
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,240
Speaker 4: But it's just like, yeah, like a real an actual

1024
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 4: smart person, if j'lock Holmes were actually smart, you know

1025
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 4: you pepper this with well, I suspect this. I don't

1026
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 4: know for sure, but like it's the crew is confidence

1027
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 4: that's like yeah, and then passed down.

1028
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 2: He just ends up becoming like a pickup artist for cops.

1029
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, the way he can just look a to B

1030
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 3: two C crime solved due fuck and the hat.

1031
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 2: He's a mystery artist and.

1032
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 1: People would consult Arthur Conan Doyle on real crimes, like

1033
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: the police would occasionally be like, well, sir, you are

1034
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 1: obviously our greatest mind. It should be noted that he

1035
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 1: later became a major proponent of spiritualism, and he was

1036
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:27,439
Speaker 1: famously taken in by the Cotton Glee Fairies hoax, where

1037
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 1: it was like somebody just did like, yeah, he made

1038
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: the place. So he went to the Strand, the place

1039
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 1: that published the Sherlock Holmes things, and was like, I

1040
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: demand that you publish these photos. He's like, the recognition

1041
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 1: of their existence will jolt to the material twentieth century

1042
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 1: mind out of its heavy ruts in the mud and

1043
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: will make it admit that there is a glamour and

1044
00:57:57,920 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 1: a mystery to life.

1045
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 4: See, this is the building on culture thing, because at

1046
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 4: least he knew to keep his mouth shut about trans

1047
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 4: people more than the pervasive culture sprit.

1048
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1049
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this was the hill that he died on

1050
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: that he was wrong about. Was just yeah, like man

1051
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: ghosts a real man there out here. He like, spiritualism

1052
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 1: is the thing. Uh, thank you, superducer. Catherine, just put

1053
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: the photograph in the chat. It's it's pretty pretty, uh

1054
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 1: pretty convinsing to.

1055
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 3: You'd put your parent in a home if they fucking

1056
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 3: sent you this picture earnestly now he'd like.

1057
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 4: Well it is like such a cute little art project,

1058
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 4: but it is crazy to be like this is real

1059
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 4: on I guess Victorian Facebook.

1060
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 1: His uh, his family like went on to really dive

1061
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 1: into the spiritualism like that that was the main legacy.

1062
00:58:56,240 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 1: Like his kids lived their lives like taking order is

1063
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 1: from his ghost via medium, So like they would like

1064
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: all go to a medium and be like, father, what

1065
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 1: should we do? Like you'd tell them like when whether

1066
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: they should have surgery or not, like when to get married.

1067
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 1: And then like one of them was like marrying like

1068
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 1: a Kardashian of the time, and she was like it

1069
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: was crazy, Like his wife just was obviously just telling

1070
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: them whatever she wanted. She was like, your father said

1071
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 1: via the medium that you actually can't have that money

1072
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 1: to buy a real god. Yeah yeah, But his sons

1073
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 1: were just like rich fuck boys.

1074
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, stupid asses, all of them.

1075
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 4: I mean, I think obviously the pervasive lesson in all

1076
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 4: of this is money poisons your brain so quickly.

1077
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: Yeah right, like generational wealthy Yeah yes, but yeah, so

1078
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 1: just the idea that they all wanted to believe in

1079
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: his deduction, right, that which is a deductively valid argument

1080
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 1: is one in which can't be the case that the

1081
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 1: premises are true and the conclusion false, and Sherlock would

1082
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 1: use a combination of induction and abduction and then infer

1083
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 1: truths and make logical guesses. But this has subsequently been

1084
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 1: dubbed the Homesian fallacy, which is a logical error of

1085
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: basing a conclusion on the belief that you have eliminated

1086
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:25,520
Speaker 1: all of their possibilities. But everybody has said.

1087
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 4: Hey, this goes back to one of my first times

1088
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 4: on But this is just a variant of the gish

1089
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 4: gallupy galloper say enough bullshit, Yes that people can't really

1090
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 4: follow or it takes too long to debunka and then.

1091
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 1: You're not galloping his way into literary history. In every

1092
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 1: one of these stories, he's relate as well. He's, of course.

1093
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 2: Surelock, this was a hate crime. This person was lynched,

1094
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 2: node was a suicide.

1095
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 3: This person was very mad at Christianity as they burnt

1096
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 3: this cross on their own lawn. Unbelievable, unbelievable the things

1097
01:00:58,680 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 3: that you see, Watson.

1098
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 1: But yeah, the explanation the human being doesn't exist. Who

1099
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 1: could eliminate all possible alternatives that I'd say. This is

1100
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:13,760
Speaker 1: especially true of Holmes, who was weirdly specific in his knowledge.

1101
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 1: I think scientists would call him spectrmy today, but for

1102
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 1: a scientific term. But there's a part in one of

1103
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 1: the stories where Watson is like, well, of course the

1104
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 1: Earth revolves around the Sun. And he's like, not only

1105
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 1: did I not know that, I'm also going to immediately

1106
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 1: forget it because that information doesn't help me solve my crimes.

1107
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 2: Oh yes, yeah.

1108
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:41,920
Speaker 4: He was just like, oh, I only care about the

1109
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 4: things that help this plot, specifically for that's two hundred pages.

1110
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of remember that vibe.

1111
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 4: They did that briefly in the cumber Batch one. There's

1112
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 4: like something he doesn't know, and the whole thing is

1113
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,959
Speaker 4: it is very like phrenology ask because it's like there's

1114
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 4: just limited capacity of this dome.

1115
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 2: You know, I have big hat, big thinking, you know. Yeah,

1116
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 2: there's this.

1117
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 1: One example in one of the like I only read

1118
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:16,480
Speaker 1: reread three but like they're just full of so much bullshit.

1119
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: There's one part where he's like, well, it's as obvious

1120
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: to me is the fact that your window is on

1121
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 1: the right side of your room Watson. And Watson's like,

1122
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 1: and he's like, well, of course I knew, Like basically

1123
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: because you're the direction that you face when you shave

1124
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 1: must be this way and because of the direction of

1125
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 1: the sun at this time of year. And Watson's like, God, damn, man,

1126
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 1: you're so smart, but that would like that it doesn't

1127
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 1: even make if you think about it for a second,

1128
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 1: Like you also have to know what direction his sink

1129
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 1: is faced, Like what direction he's facing, Like.

1130
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 2: Nah, no, you don't mirror. It's just smart sounding bullshit.

1131
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 3: But like, I feel like, in the same way we

1132
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 3: always talk about how easy it was to lie in

1133
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 3: the pre internet age, Like you go back even fucking

1134
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:13,520
Speaker 3: a century from there and you're out here and be like, oh, yeah, dude,

1135
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:15,240
Speaker 3: I can tell your fucking bathrooms.

1136
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 2: Cut the thing over here.

1137
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 3: They're like, oh my god, this guy's so confidently saying

1138
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 3: this bullshit, yet we don't collectively have the savvy to

1139
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 3: immediately identify it.

1140
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:25,600
Speaker 2: He's just like a very impressive con man.

1141
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 4: Yeah well, or I mean, it's just like these books

1142
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 4: happen to capture the times he was right, sure, exactly, Okay,

1143
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 4: that's that's the sherlock we don't have.

1144
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 2: It's the nine hundred and ninety nine, like thousand times

1145
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 2: where he does that.

1146
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 3: Some people are like, nah, I just I don't think

1147
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 3: so many that sounds like bullshit to me.

1148
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 2: Are you okay, man, you're like track marks on your arm?

1149
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 2: It's everything, all right?

1150
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, dude, sorry, I'm only I'm down to seven percent now.

1151
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, I'm weaning myself.

1152
01:03:55,800 --> 01:04:04,960
Speaker 1: I allowed to have down to Well, how if you

1153
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 1: boil it a little bit before you do. One thing

1154
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 1: that I do think, you know, if we think of

1155
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 1: like an icon's kind of reputation being a thing that

1156
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 1: kind of comes down through like sort of a cultural

1157
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: natural selection, one thing that I think was probably beneficial

1158
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 1: is that right as he's being published, Jack the Jack

1159
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 1: the Ripper crimes are happening, and so people are, yeah,

1160
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 1: they want a superhero, Yeah, they want a superhero. It's

1161
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 1: one of the most famous unsolved crimes is happening. So

1162
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 1: it's like creating the need for Sherlock Holmes in reality.

1163
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 1: So like, you know, just all all the things that

1164
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:50,520
Speaker 1: you know, he gets designed and then redesigned and made

1165
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 1: like more and more iconic. He has the most famous

1166
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 1: unsolved crime of maybe the century happen as he's becoming popular,

1167
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: and so he has like and then he has like

1168
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 1: whatever weird ingredients were in the firmament of like making

1169
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 1: culture ready for timeless icons.

1170
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, people just walked to I was actually thinking about

1171
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 4: because I think my probably not my I don't know

1172
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 4: if he's my favorite, but my most like watched Sherlock

1173
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:23,760
Speaker 4: Holmes variant is House. Yes, And if you think about House, really,

1174
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:29,560
Speaker 4: the fiction there is imagine your insurance approving four doctors working,

1175
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 4: just fucking imagine that four doctors all the time, right, Yeah,

1176
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:39,320
Speaker 4: I mean all they're thinking about it was opioids, right

1177
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 4: for doctor?

1178
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:42,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that's right. He did have a he did

1179
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 1: have a pill problem, which was appropriate to his time,

1180
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 1: you know, but doctor, Like the pitch for a House

1181
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 1: was like, but what if Sherlock Holmes was a doctor,

1182
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 1: which is like, well, the original Charlote Holmes was a

1183
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 1: doctor I came from.

1184
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:02,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you're just talking about medical diagnoses right now?

1185
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, whoa dude, what if he was like a doctor

1186
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 2: and detective.

1187
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:08,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's kind of the gig man, he's figuring out

1188
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 3: what's wrong with you for good.

1189
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:14,560
Speaker 1: There have been like a bunch of crossovers with like

1190
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:17,919
Speaker 1: weird Charlock Holmes in Dallas where somebody wrote a book

1191
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 1: in which Sherlock Holmes was there.

1192
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 2: The JF.

1193
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:25,920
Speaker 1: Which JFK sassinag is a great example of the false

1194
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 1: notion that like, you know, you look at a thing

1195
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:32,200
Speaker 1: and you can figure out's like actually they so many people.

1196
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: Everyone has looked at this thing and has gotten worse

1197
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 1: at understanding what has happened.

1198
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:38,080
Speaker 2: Like I feel like.

1199
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:40,960
Speaker 1: The umbrella man would have really thrown Sherlock for a

1200
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 1: loop from the guy who liked opened an umbrella on

1201
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:47,640
Speaker 1: a sunny day in Dallas right before he got his

1202
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 1: head blown off.

1203
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 2: And I knew he must have been from an upper latitude,

1204
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:54,760
Speaker 2: perhaps Russian in nature, due to his need for shade

1205
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 2: from the intense sun.

1206
01:06:56,120 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 4: It's fucking Dracula, dog, you would have died Cracula.

1207
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 1: And then he's also crossed over with Batman, which I

1208
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:10,080
Speaker 1: will say Batman is the other side of the coin,

1209
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:12,360
Speaker 1: like proving how hard it is to write this sort

1210
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 1: of ship because Batman like is always like the world's

1211
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 1: greatest detective and I've never once seen in a movie

1212
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:22,680
Speaker 1: or like in a comic book or anything did do

1213
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:26,520
Speaker 1: a good job. Like yeah, it really feels like a

1214
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 1: self ascribed nickname.

1215
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 2: Detective you got your self proclaimed you got your girl killed.

1216
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:39,600
Speaker 2: Broh shit, god damn it again.

1217
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:44,440
Speaker 4: He also mostly is like, well, I'm a billionaire and

1218
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 4: I built this thing that just tells me the answer.

1219
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:50,439
Speaker 2: Right, right, right, yeah, you know most yeah, yeah, that's right.

1220
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:56,240
Speaker 1: And then we of course come to uh sexuality in erotica,

1221
01:07:56,480 --> 01:08:01,400
Speaker 1: which people have lot, so he is kind of asexual

1222
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 1: throughout the stories and in most of the iterations, but

1223
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:12,600
Speaker 1: some people were detecting some sexual chemistry between him and Watson.

1224
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 1: So there was a nineteen seventy one paperback. So Jay

1225
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:21,920
Speaker 1: mcnap went to our writer researcher went to this room

1226
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:24,439
Speaker 1: at the Toronto Public Library that is like the Sherlock

1227
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:27,360
Speaker 1: Holmes Room, and it has it's like set up to

1228
01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:30,559
Speaker 1: look like Sherlock's study, and it just has like all

1229
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:33,080
Speaker 1: like just a room full of the sort of like

1230
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:36,599
Speaker 1: literature that we're talking about, not just Sherlock Holmes stories,

1231
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 1: but like stories about Sherlock Holmes. And he found this one,

1232
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:44,559
Speaker 1: The Sexual Adventures of Sherlock Holmes. Where else are you

1233
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 1: going to find sentences like my own erection was threatening

1234
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:56,320
Speaker 1: to rend the rugged tweet of my Breeches. Yeah, it

1235
01:08:56,360 --> 01:08:59,960
Speaker 1: was actually credited to Jay Watson, but it was actual

1236
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 1: written by a prolific erotic novelist.

1237
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:08,840
Speaker 2: Larry Townsend, but queer Holmes Watson fanfic took off with

1238
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:13,799
Speaker 2: the Benedict Cumberbatch BBC Sherlock Show. Oh sure, oh after

1239
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:14,560
Speaker 2: that okay.

1240
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:17,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Bennett Cumberbatch that it's always like one of

1241
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:20,639
Speaker 1: them is tired. One comes back from work, the other's horny,

1242
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 1: a lump appears in his trousers, and then they're at it.

1243
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:27,120
Speaker 1: It's usually me getting it. I'm biting Watson's dog tags.

1244
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 1: He felt like he was like trying to make it

1245
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:34,679
Speaker 1: sound dismissive and then like kind of got carried away.

1246
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's whispering in my ear. I'm winding that he's

1247
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 3: always leaving dishes in the sink that he's not washing.

1248
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:44,719
Speaker 4: It's just got that betteredic cumber Batch. One really leans

1249
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 4: into Watson's war.

1250
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so the original Watson was like a war injured,

1251
01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:54,280
Speaker 1: like former soldier had just returned from Afghanistan to show

1252
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 1: how much things had changed.

1253
01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, well right, because that's what they do in the

1254
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 4: show is still gets injured in Afghanistan.

1255
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but I think that's a good place to

1256
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:06,639
Speaker 2: leave it. Guys.

1257
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:10,719
Speaker 3: Uh, dude, I want to party with this guy.

1258
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 2: Seems like a good time. Yeah, I will say.

1259
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:17,240
Speaker 4: No, it's like that Apple story about like this is

1260
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:18,720
Speaker 4: why you realize.

1261
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 2: This, Yeah, this is why you need to stop doing cocaine.

1262
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:26,160
Speaker 3: This is why I sound like, Yeah, I just want

1263
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 3: to see the guys shoot up cocaine and be like,

1264
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:29,120
Speaker 3: let's go fucking.

1265
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 2: Solve a crime. Like what check out.

1266
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 3: I can tell from the way you're standing, like this

1267
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 3: guy's these guys fucking nuts.

1268
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 2: Dude, let me video this ship. Yeah, he's like taking

1269
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:47,800
Speaker 2: apart and putting back together the CRS. Half the time

1270
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 2: he's jacking off in that study.

1271
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:52,880
Speaker 1: I don't I will say I do think a part

1272
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:56,800
Speaker 1: of the appeal is like how fucking cozy that study looks, though,

1273
01:10:57,240 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 1: Like it looks so nice in there with that five

1274
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:03,479
Speaker 1: and like it just it has a little look about it.

1275
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 2: And the cocaine. Okay, cocaine feels warm. You're margling at

1276
01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:11,200
Speaker 2: the marveling at the superpowers of the KKK. Yes, exactly

1277
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:14,519
Speaker 2: how did they do it? Watson? Damn andrew T, thank

1278
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:18,040
Speaker 2: you so much for joining us. Where can people find you?

1279
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:21,839
Speaker 2: Follow you? I don't know, man, don't follow me? Produce

1280
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:22,640
Speaker 2: how to find me.

1281
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, give your name the entrew Ty on social media.

1282
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:31,640
Speaker 4: But we've been enjoying this show Starter Trek on Suboptimal

1283
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:33,280
Speaker 4: Pods dot com.

1284
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really fun. We've been watching Star Trek episodes.

1285
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,600
Speaker 4: My coast Towny Newsome was a writer on Starfleet Academy

1286
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 4: so and an actor, and she was in.

1287
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 2: Lower you got it, Yeah, the funniest. That was a

1288
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:48,120
Speaker 2: bad way of explaining who she is. Anyway, we never

1289
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 2: brought up the fact that you're related to share Lock Holmes. Well,

1290
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:53,280
Speaker 2: I'm related to the Chinese Sherlock Holmes.

1291
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:57,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the only the only t slash D in

1292
01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:00,840
Speaker 4: Chinese literary history is basically Chinese shirlock home homes Judge D.

1293
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:05,880
Speaker 2: And he is very similar methods tog dynasty.

1294
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:08,200
Speaker 4: Well yeah, his whole thing is he he does all

1295
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:11,520
Speaker 4: the deduction ship but because he is like an imperial magistrate,

1296
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:14,080
Speaker 4: most of the plots end with and then I had

1297
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:16,519
Speaker 4: the suspect torture that he confessed.

1298
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:23,040
Speaker 2: More of a modern American Yeah, yeah, more accurate to

1299
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:28,759
Speaker 2: real policing. Yeah, yeah, nyp D. Yes, there it is. Okay,

1300
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:32,280
Speaker 2: miles where can people find you? At Miles of Gray?

1301
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:35,160
Speaker 3: You know, do you know the other shows which I

1302
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:37,680
Speaker 3: got in Footy and I talk about soccer.

1303
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:40,400
Speaker 2: There, which is also English, like Charlotte, There you go.

1304
01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:45,240
Speaker 3: And like Michael Carac Yeah, Michael Coric Yeah, he took

1305
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:46,240
Speaker 3: the free points on us.

1306
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:46,519
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1307
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 1: Bro, I'm going to be right back to tell you

1308
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:52,040
Speaker 1: the stuff that I forgot to mention in this conversation

1309
01:12:52,479 --> 01:12:53,639
Speaker 1: the notebook dunk.

1310
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:54,720
Speaker 2: I'll be back in a.

1311
01:12:54,720 --> 01:13:10,880
Speaker 1: Minute, all right. That was our conversation with Andrew T

1312
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:17,759
Speaker 1: about Sherlock Holmes on the Spectrum off his ass on cocaine.

1313
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:21,679
Speaker 1: Thanks to Miles and Andrew and to our researcher Jam McNabb.

1314
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:25,840
Speaker 2: This is the No No, No notebook.

1315
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:29,679
Speaker 1: Dun't, where I talk about the things that I forgot

1316
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 1: to mention or wished I had more time to talk about.

1317
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:35,640
Speaker 1: One thing that I wish I had more time to

1318
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:39,120
Speaker 1: talk about is the axial age. That idea that I

1319
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:42,920
Speaker 1: mentioned that is implied by the axial age. I guess

1320
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:48,200
Speaker 1: that big developments in history are driven not by individual men,

1321
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:53,360
Speaker 1: but by these large movements that happened because the time

1322
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 1: has just come, you know, the zeitgeist is ready for

1323
01:13:57,439 --> 01:14:03,600
Speaker 1: that invention or our artistic movement or philosophical idea. The

1324
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 1: book where Karl Jaspers introduces this idea is called The

1325
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:12,360
Speaker 1: Origin and Goal of History. Like world history is just

1326
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:16,240
Speaker 1: this one movement working toward a singular goal, even though

1327
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:21,840
Speaker 1: it feels completely disconnected. That's at least the thesis, or

1328
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 1: a helpful way, he thinks for looking at history, the

1329
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:31,000
Speaker 1: world history, we're all working towards one goal in various

1330
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:36,160
Speaker 1: places without realizing it. There's a similar idea in Vonnegut's

1331
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:39,639
Speaker 1: The Sirens of Titan, but in that case the goal

1332
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:42,080
Speaker 1: is like being beamed into our head or some shit

1333
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,800
Speaker 1: I forget exactly. But anyways, the other place that that

1334
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:49,160
Speaker 1: idea had occurred to me, and when I first started

1335
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:54,000
Speaker 1: reading about the axial age again, was doing the research

1336
01:14:54,040 --> 01:14:56,960
Speaker 1: for the Marilyn Monroe episode, and I was like thinking

1337
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:00,040
Speaker 1: about the fact that all these mysterious deaths happen and

1338
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:02,760
Speaker 1: in the US in the nineteen sixties while doing the

1339
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:07,120
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe episode, like she has this mysterious death than

1340
01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:10,400
Speaker 1: the Kennedys, then Martin Luther King Junior, and Malcolm X.

1341
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 1: I think I'm getting these out of order, Elvis John Lennon,

1342
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:19,040
Speaker 1: but it's just this rash of young, beautiful, important people

1343
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:23,680
Speaker 1: dying violently or mysteriously.

1344
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:25,760
Speaker 2: That I don't know.

1345
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:27,720
Speaker 1: In that case, it could just be the CIA killing

1346
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:30,840
Speaker 1: a bunch of people that they were scared of. But yeah,

1347
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:33,200
Speaker 1: I don't know they In this case, I do think

1348
01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:36,439
Speaker 1: it was interesting because I was researching already and kept

1349
01:15:36,479 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 1: seeing this idea that like Sherlock, Holmes and Dracula are

1350
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:42,040
Speaker 1: neck and neck and way out in front is the

1351
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:45,160
Speaker 1: two fictional characters that have been depicted the most in

1352
01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:49,479
Speaker 1: the history of film, and they were invented by two

1353
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:52,519
Speaker 1: guys in the same year, in the same area, the

1354
01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:58,719
Speaker 1: same town, and invented before film has even been invented.

1355
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:02,240
Speaker 1: And then they go on to don twentieth century cinema

1356
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:08,120
Speaker 1: just weird. Interesting. One more historical anecdote for the notebook

1357
01:16:08,160 --> 01:16:10,360
Speaker 1: dump that I wanted to hit so I wanted to

1358
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:13,920
Speaker 1: make sure I wasn't being unfair to the legacy of Sherlock.

1359
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:18,040
Speaker 1: I had some anecdotal stuff about cops thinking they could

1360
01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:24,000
Speaker 1: Sherlock their way into solving crimes, which is always dangerous

1361
01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:28,040
Speaker 1: because cops are often the most confident about the stuff

1362
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:32,080
Speaker 1: they're wrong about. They're strong and wrong, and you generally

1363
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:35,559
Speaker 1: can't tell them shit, but I didn't have like a

1364
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:39,040
Speaker 1: direct link between Sherlock and modern cops. So I asked

1365
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:43,280
Speaker 1: JM mcknab our researcher to see what he could find.

1366
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:46,240
Speaker 1: First of all, he did great work on this doc.

1367
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:50,799
Speaker 1: And second of all, he did come back with first

1368
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:54,640
Speaker 1: that article on forensics that I think I mentioned in

1369
01:16:54,680 --> 01:16:57,679
Speaker 1: the conversation that starts like I think the article starts

1370
01:16:57,680 --> 01:17:01,280
Speaker 1: Sherlock started at all, and then go into like how

1371
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:05,559
Speaker 1: bite analysis and stuff like that is infallible, turns out

1372
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 1: very fallible, highly subjective, terrible form of evidence. And then

1373
01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:14,439
Speaker 1: he came back with the story that I'm about to

1374
01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:17,800
Speaker 1: tell you about Sherlock and Conan Doyle being sort of

1375
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:23,240
Speaker 1: spiritual ancestors to what is essentially the main bad guy

1376
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:25,080
Speaker 1: in our.

1377
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:27,639
Speaker 2: Iconograph series so far, the FBI.

1378
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:32,360
Speaker 1: I feel like, across all the different stories the FBI

1379
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:36,120
Speaker 1: keeps coming up, they hated and fucked with everyone from

1380
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:40,960
Speaker 1: Einstein to Marilyn Monroe as soon as those people had

1381
01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:46,000
Speaker 1: a progressive idea essentially. So anyways, here's the story. Sir

1382
01:17:46,160 --> 01:17:51,960
Speaker 1: Arthur Conan Doyle, when he wasn't begrudgingly writing absolute classics

1383
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:56,479
Speaker 1: of the mystery genre, was out in the world, hanging

1384
01:17:56,520 --> 01:18:01,639
Speaker 1: out with other famous people and chasing ghosts some fairies,

1385
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:03,519
Speaker 1: but hanging out with other famous people, and at some

1386
01:18:03,640 --> 01:18:10,080
Speaker 1: point he meets this famous self promoting private detective William J. Burns,

1387
01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:16,479
Speaker 1: and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle falls for Burns's bullshit hook

1388
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:20,760
Speaker 1: line and sinker so. Burns is a former member of

1389
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:24,439
Speaker 1: the Secret Service who left the Secret Service to start

1390
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:28,280
Speaker 1: his own detective agency. Made a name for himself after

1391
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 1: being hired to solve the nineteen to ten Los Angeles

1392
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:35,719
Speaker 1: Times bombing, which was bombed due to the editor's anti

1393
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:41,320
Speaker 1: union agenda. Burns solved that case via blatantly illegal means

1394
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:45,040
Speaker 1: kidnapping one conspirator and keeping him in a Chicago house

1395
01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:48,240
Speaker 1: for a week in order to extract a confession without

1396
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:52,040
Speaker 1: having to quote waste time in fighting habeas corpus proceedings,

1397
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:55,920
Speaker 1: and then he tracks down the other suspects to Indiana

1398
01:18:56,400 --> 01:18:59,680
Speaker 1: and brings them to California without any legal authority, and

1399
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:05,160
Speaker 1: Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, presumably buying into whatever smart police

1400
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 1: work he's retconned onto that story instead of just being like, yeah,

1401
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:12,679
Speaker 1: so I kidnapped them and scared them until they told

1402
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:15,479
Speaker 1: me what I wanted to hear. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

1403
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:20,600
Speaker 1: is like, Wow, this is America's Sherlock Holmes. Burns is

1404
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:24,120
Speaker 1: also brought in to work on the Wall Street bombing

1405
01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 1: of nineteen twenty doesn't solve that, but what he does

1406
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:32,599
Speaker 1: is aggressively hype the fact that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

1407
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:37,640
Speaker 1: called him the American Sherlock Holmes. Just aggressively self mythologizing

1408
01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:40,960
Speaker 1: his own abilities writing crue crime stories based on his

1409
01:19:41,120 --> 01:19:45,839
Speaker 1: cases for detective magazines, starring in a silent movie about

1410
01:19:45,880 --> 01:19:50,240
Speaker 1: one case called the five Million Dollar Counterfeiting Plot, which

1411
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:55,320
Speaker 1: included a cameo from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle himself. He

1412
01:19:56,200 --> 01:20:00,120
Speaker 1: eventually becomes the head of the Bureau of Investigation in

1413
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:03,719
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty one, which is soon to be the FBI,

1414
01:20:04,240 --> 01:20:06,599
Speaker 1: so he is like the proto JG.

1415
01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 2: Hoover.

1416
01:20:07,640 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 1: Unfortunately for him, he is forced to resign in disgrace

1417
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:13,920
Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty four due to his role in the

1418
01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:17,920
Speaker 1: Teapot Dome scandal, which was just basically the hard hearting

1419
01:20:17,960 --> 01:20:23,799
Speaker 1: administration selling naval reserves to private oil companies. But Burns

1420
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:28,559
Speaker 1: literally had his agents following Democrats who tried to stop

1421
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:31,880
Speaker 1: them reading their mail listening to their phone calls in

1422
01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:35,240
Speaker 1: order to try and dig up potential ammunition for smear campaign.

1423
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:39,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, basically, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle co signed a

1424
01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:43,719
Speaker 1: guy who was essentially the proto Jaeger Hoover, who went

1425
01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:49,559
Speaker 1: on to be the main antagonist of many of the

1426
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:53,240
Speaker 1: lives that we've been covering in our Iconograph series. By

1427
01:20:53,240 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 1: the way, speaking of Conan Doyle befriending problematic American detectives,

1428
01:20:56,400 --> 01:21:00,559
Speaker 1: he also met William Pickerton and was so impressed with

1429
01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:03,600
Speaker 1: him that he turned to the final Holmes novel, The

1430
01:21:03,720 --> 01:21:08,080
Speaker 1: Valley of Fear, into a pro Pinkerton anti union story

1431
01:21:08,520 --> 01:21:13,360
Speaker 1: inspired by their infiltration of the Molly Maguire's So not

1432
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:17,200
Speaker 1: on the best side of history, but very entertaining. That's

1433
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:22,920
Speaker 1: gonna be it for Sherlock cool character indirectly responsible for

1434
01:21:22,960 --> 01:21:25,960
Speaker 1: a lot of bad shit. If I missed anything on

1435
01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:29,560
Speaker 1: this or any other icons that you think is interesting,

1436
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:32,519
Speaker 1: by all means, let me know in the discord or

1437
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:38,080
Speaker 1: on Twitter, and I'll mention it in these notebook dumps

1438
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:41,920
Speaker 1: in the future. Up next, we have an icon who

1439
01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:48,040
Speaker 1: is no friend to the police. Hell he once pulled

1440
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 1: up from the logo and shot two of them for

1441
01:21:50,040 --> 01:21:53,800
Speaker 1: harassing a black man. Next week, Miles, Molly Lambert and

1442
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:58,880
Speaker 1: I take a look at Tupac Shakur. It's a very

1443
01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:01,800
Speaker 1: long one, a lot of great shit in there, so

1444
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:03,520
Speaker 1: hopefully tune.

1445
01:22:03,240 --> 01:22:04,519
Speaker 2: Back in for that one.

1446
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:06,920
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this one as much as I'd

1447
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:11,360
Speaker 1: enjoyed researching it, and I'll talk y'all next week.

1448
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:16,040
Speaker 2: Bye bye,