1 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to Wika f Daily with 2 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: me your girl, Danielle Moody. This week we are reflecting 3 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: on the year of hate, and as a part of 4 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: that reflection, we are going back through our treasure trove 5 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: of interviews that we've had throughout the year, and one 6 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: of them stood out to me in many many ways. 7 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: You know, after the murder of George Floyd, we've begun 8 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: as a nation to have a real mainstreamed conversation about 9 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: police reform, that how could it be that with the 10 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: eighteen hundred police departments around this country, that we could 11 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: continue to refer to those that take the lies of 12 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: unarmed black people as bad apples, that we could continue 13 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: to shrug off the number of people that are murdered 14 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: each and every day at the hands of people who 15 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: took an oath and wear a badge that says to 16 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: protect and serve. The question collectively, finally, that we were 17 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: having after the murder of George Floyd was who are 18 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: the police there to protect? Who are they there to serve? Now, 19 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: in the black community, we have known all too well. 20 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: It was the reason why the klu Klux Klan wore 21 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: hoods because many of those same people that were attached 22 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: to the quote unquote justice system were the very clansmen 23 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: that were participating in the lynching, the beatings, and the 24 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: hangings of innocent black people, but would serve as the 25 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: police chiefs and the judges. We have a legacy in 26 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: this country that has allowed white supremacy and violence to 27 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:37,239 Speaker 1: be shrouded in blue. We have created policies and systems 28 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: that allow them to do harm without fear of any 29 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: persecution at all. When a police officer is actually convicted, 30 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: we all exhale because we have been holding our brats 31 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: throughout the entirety of the Chauvin case. Because even with 32 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: the videos, the angles, the witnesses who broke down on 33 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: the stand, who refuse to turn away because somebody needed 34 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: to see what was being done, we didn't believe that 35 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: the justice system would do the right thing, because it 36 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: rarely ever does not when the victims are black or brown, 37 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: or poor for that matter. In her book Becoming Abolitionists 38 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: Police Protests in the Pursuit of Freedom, Dereka Purnell unpacks 39 00:03:54,000 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: her own journey to abolition to the belief that police 40 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:08,279 Speaker 1: and policing and police forces are nothing more than a polacebo. 41 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: She writes, calling them felt like something, and something feels 42 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: like everything when the other option seems like nothing. But 43 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: there have been too many times when we have heard 44 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: stories of people calling the police and death following that 45 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: phone call. Whether family members are calling the police because 46 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: a loved one is in mental distress, because we have 47 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: no other system, no other place to call. Yet we know, 48 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: good God damn well that the police aren't trained to 49 00:04:55,040 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: do a fucking thing, not as it pertains to the escalation. 50 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: They can only seem to de escalate so long as 51 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: the person is wielding a weapon and is white. Because 52 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: if God forbid, they have a book or a cell 53 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: phone and happen to be black or brown, Well, you 54 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: have just cemented certain death with the phone call to police. 55 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: We have watched right in the videos of the many 56 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: parents Amy Cooper, who knew just how to inflect her 57 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: voice and dramatize her fear of a very dangerous bird 58 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: watching black man in Central Park. We continue to hear 59 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: stories of police officers using, time and time again the 60 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: good old rope. They seemed dangerous, I couldn't see, I'm 61 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: under pressure, and I feared from my life. Well, what 62 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: the fuck is your training for You're the one with 63 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: the gun. Kim Potter right took out her taser or 64 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: thought she did, Oh oops, it was my nine millimeter. 65 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: There are so many names, so many names, and so 66 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: many names that we will not know of those whose 67 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: lives were stone len by police. We just learned not 68 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: too recently, right about the United States government dropping a 69 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: bomb in nineteen eighty six folks in Philadelphia to take 70 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: out black activists. Right, We just learned about that that 71 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't just the mobs of armed white supremacists that 72 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: would destroy and murder hundreds of black people in Tulsa, Oklahoma. 73 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: That just recently was referred to as a massacre for 74 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: the first time by a sitting fucking president. But somebody 75 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: authorized the bombs that were dropping from overhead. Somebody authorized 76 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: police not to give a fuck, right because they were participating. 77 00:07:54,600 --> 00:08:00,559 Speaker 1: And that has been true through history. This is part 78 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: of what Dereka Purnell states in becoming abolitionist. For more 79 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: than a century, activists in the United States have tried 80 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: to reform the police, from community policing initiatives to increasing diversity. 81 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: None of it has stopped the police from killing about 82 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: three people a day. Think about that, Folks, in what position, 83 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: in what industry, in what career could you have those 84 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: type of incidents and there not be a significant fucking 85 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: policy change and overhaul. But for the police, I don't 86 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 1: know one. She goes on, Millions of people continued to 87 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: protest police violence because these quote solutions do not match 88 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: the problem. The police cannot be reformed. In becoming abolitionists, 89 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: Dereka Purnell draws from her experiences as a lawyer, writer, 90 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: and organizer. Initially skeptical about police abolition, she details in 91 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: this multiracial social movement rooted in rebellion, risk taking, and 92 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: revolutionary love, how it pushed her and a generation of 93 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: activists towards abolition. Now, if you remember, on the ballot 94 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: this year was police abolition in Minneapolis, and it failed. 95 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: Activists who were for abolition will say that this failure 96 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: right was indeed progress because it would be the first time, 97 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: the first time, in all of the years and all 98 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: of the decades fighting for police reform, that even the 99 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: idea of abolition, which had finally penetrated the consciousness of 100 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: the country, would even be considered as an option. But 101 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: much in the same way that Fox News and the 102 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: Republicans ride on fear. We do the same thing with policing. 103 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: Oh my god, if we get rid of the police, 104 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: then rape will be up and murder will be up. 105 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: And I'm like, we've had police since the beginning of time. 106 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: You see, they were the slave troll They were the 107 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: ones that made sure that those that were trying to 108 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: escape to freedom never made it. And since we have 109 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: had police, there's been a rise in all sorts of 110 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: crime and murder and rape and persecute, all of these things. 111 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: And the response has always been, oh, we need more police. 112 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: When have you ever heard of police stopping actual fucking 113 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: crime as opposed to showing up after the fact. We 114 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: have more incidents of people with special needs and disabilities 115 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: being murdered by police when called because oh, they don't 116 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: know what to do. But we have never created or 117 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: put resources into any other initiatives or entities so that 118 00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: we take that task that clearly they cannot do away 119 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: from armed officers. You know, it is a tangled web. 120 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: Our injustice system, our legal system, our police system just 121 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: continuing to feed the beast. People in this country are 122 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: addicted to the police because you have been lied to 123 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 1: in thinking that their presence means your safety, when in fact, 124 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: when we continue to look at the wealthiest places in 125 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: this country, when we look at tree lined neighborhoods in 126 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: the suburbs, you never see the police, you never hear 127 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: a siren, and yet those are the safest areas. And 128 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: why is that? Oh, because their property taxes provide for 129 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: them the better schools and the community centers and the 130 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: country clubs and the sidewalks and everything that we know 131 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: to be true create safe communities. But what do we 132 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: continue to do in low income communities and black and 133 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: brown communities. We flood them with police, but we don't 134 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: provide supermarkets, we don't provide actual banks, we don't provide jobs, 135 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,479 Speaker 1: we don't provide schools that don't look like fucking prisons. 136 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: And then we wonder why there is crime, why there 137 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: is distrust of the police, Because for the moment that 138 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: you're able to get to school on your own, you're 139 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: being thrown up against a police car and harassed. So 140 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: Dereka Parnell's journey in becoming abolitionists is about looking across, 141 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: as she would say, geography and time, looking at places 142 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: from Ferguson to South Africa from reconstruction, as she writes 143 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: to the contemporary police protests and shootings and say, what 144 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: does it really mean to be free? To get free? 145 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: But we are so addicted to violence in this country 146 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: that can't reform policing because we don't have the ability 147 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: to imagine something better, something different. I can tell you 148 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: that in all my years riding public transportation, whether it 149 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: be the Metro in DC, or the subway in New York, 150 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: or in whatever place that I am, anytime that I 151 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: see a group of police officers either get on to 152 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: a train car or b at a subway station, I 153 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: avoid them like the fucking plague. Nowhere have I ever 154 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: seen a group of police officers gathered and thought to myself, oh, 155 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: I feel safe. Any time that I've ever seen flashing 156 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: lights behind me or go by me, my heart rate 157 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: speeds up and breath leaves my body. That should not 158 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: be the consistent feeling that black and brown people have 159 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: in this country when they come face to face with police. 160 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: You shouldn't have one community have to tell their child 161 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: a story about how to stay alive and think that 162 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: you live in a system that is safe and for 163 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: all people. We have believed the lie and what this 164 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: conversation with Dereka Parnell offers is a way out. But 165 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: will we ever be bold enough to get there? Will 166 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: we ever actually vote for our own liberation from policing 167 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: and violence without accountability? Folks? I am so excited to 168 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: welcome to wokaf Daily for the first time author Dereka Purnell, 169 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: who is the author of a book whose title I 170 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: just love, Becoming Abolitionists. Dereka, we have talked about abolition 171 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: on woke a f in so many different forms, in 172 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: so many different ways, about what it means to abolish something, 173 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: what it means to purge it, right, And I think 174 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: that in order to purge something you have to recognize it. 175 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: You have to recognize its ills, the troubles, the trauma, 176 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: the grief that it is bringing. When we talked about 177 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: abolitionists during slavery, we were, you know, abolishing a system 178 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: of depravity, of cruelty, of horrifics treatment of human beings. 179 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,719 Speaker 1: When you wrote this book and you're and the title 180 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: becoming Abolitionists, what does that mean to you? Oh? Wow? 181 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: I love this question. I love the foreground and so 182 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: the one. Thank you so much for having me I'm 183 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: very excited about this conversation. I went back and forth 184 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: on titles. It was very hard trying to figure out 185 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: which title made the most sense for this book. And 186 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,719 Speaker 1: the reason why I ultimately landed on becoming abolitionists with 187 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: this plural sue is because to be an abolitionist, I believe, 188 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: is to always be in the process of the journey 189 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: and reevaluating what makes the most sense for the future 190 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 1: that we want to build. Right and so like the 191 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: reasons why I was an abolitionist when I first started 192 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: writing the book are very different than some of the 193 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: things that I have right now. And it's just allowing 194 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: yourself to be curious enough to ask questions, to be 195 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: in a conversation with people, to be wrong sometime, to 196 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: reflect to say, oh wow, I used to think this 197 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: about myself. I used to think it's about the world. 198 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: I used to think this about police and prisons, And 199 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: now with more information, I have new better reasons to 200 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 1: not want the police to be here, or I have 201 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: new better reasons why, well, I don't think that we 202 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: should have prisons in this society. And so in the book, 203 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: I try to show that journey for me, but also 204 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: for other people right ten twelve years ago, I guess 205 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: ten years ago, Oh my gosh, ten years ago, about 206 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: ten years ago when George Immerman killed Treymon and Martin. 207 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: There are so many of us who were fighting, spending hours, sacrificing, 208 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: you know, our work, our families, our school to make 209 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: sure that someone was arrested. That is what we put 210 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: that energy in. And there are so many of those 211 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: people who were at the forefront of those movements who 212 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: now don't even believe in arrests, don't even believe in prisons, 213 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: don't even believe in police. And I wanted to talk 214 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: about that because when people critique abolitionists, they'll say something like, well, 215 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 1: you know, this isn't realistic. When we tried realistic thing. 216 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: We have spent our lives learning about the realistic way 217 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: you're supposed to hold someone accountabile, accountable. And now that 218 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: we know that those systems were never intended to actually 219 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: offer true justice, true accountability, and so we're constantly becoming 220 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: examining what kinds of systems that we want to abolish 221 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: and then what we also want to build. You know, 222 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: I love that one because I think that the journey 223 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: that your book lays out is the journey that many 224 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: of us are on right, where we wanted to believe 225 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: in a criminal justice system, in a judicial system that 226 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: was going to see our full humanity, that was going 227 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: to actually uphold the creed that justice is in fact blind. Right. 228 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: I think that from two thousand and what was it, 229 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: two thousand and fourteen until now, right, the amount of hashtags, 230 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: the amount out of unarmed black people that have been murdered, 231 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 1: the video of nine minutes of George Floyd losing his 232 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: losing having the life squeezed out of him, not losing 233 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: his life, having his life stolen from him. You know, 234 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: I wanted to believe in the beginning when we saw 235 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: Trey Von Martin to your point that there's no doubt 236 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,360 Speaker 1: this is a child, right, this was an adult, and 237 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: so we know that he will be convicted because how 238 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: could he not. And it was in that moment for 239 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: me that I just I the faith that I had 240 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: in our politics, in our government, in our systems began 241 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: to wane. And I want to talk to you about 242 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: these different pinpointed moments because you also lay out very 243 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: clearly where you grew up right, the neighborhoods and how 244 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: they were filled with various forms of violence, whether you're 245 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: talking about environmental injustice factors or you're talking about actual 246 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: crime or the lack of jobs, and you know, good 247 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: schools and hopefulness. What are those kind of pinpoint moments 248 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: that stand out for you over this timeline of moving 249 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: from believing in the probability that a policing system could 250 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: work for black people and then understanding that it was 251 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: never meant to yes. Yes. So I would say that 252 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: early on rather than saying that I like believe that 253 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: this system weren't for us. I think now, having readen 254 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: the Bug and read it like a thousand times while 255 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: all the edits, I think it was probably the most 256 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: accurate thing for me to say is that I had 257 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 1: really unexamined ideas about policing. Right, I had unexamined ideas 258 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: about my own commitments to policing. I just assume that 259 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: they were here. I didn't ask they came from. I 260 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: didn't ask if we needed them. It was just like, oh, 261 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: police kind of exist, like male people exists, like fire 262 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: five or six, like teacher. They're just they're just a 263 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: part of society. I didn't even have wherewithal I knew 264 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: that there were problematic police. I knew that there were 265 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: police with my mom's friends, right, there was a range 266 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: of and there sometimes there was an overlap, and that 267 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: has been diagram But you know, I just took for 268 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: granted their existence. I really had unexamined commitments to these institutions, 269 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: and so over time, especially when Michael Brown was killed, 270 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: that was one of the first times I started being 271 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: pushed to acts okay, like what is this thing about? 272 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: Like why why is this? Why can't cops just kill 273 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: someone and kind of like go home. It was very 274 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: It was a very huge political awakening for me and 275 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: lots of other people. And what I also realized I 276 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: was doing at that time long alongside lots of other people, 277 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 1: I was using what white people get, or at least 278 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: what I perceived white people to receive as justice, as 279 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: a metric for what I thought we deserved too. So 280 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: I would say something this happened to a white boy, 281 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: like we already know this black hot would be in jail, 282 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: and we don't even have to guess because Mohammed nor 283 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: in Minnesota end up killing I think Justine Diamond, the 284 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: white woman from Australia, he's in prison, right so we 285 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: would say, you know, if this was a white person, 286 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: this is what would happened. This is a white person, 287 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: this is what would happen. And at some point, by 288 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: being in conversation with other organizers doing more study and 289 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: doing more research learning about the origins of police, I 290 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: have to be like, Wade, what if this system that 291 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: we know is racially unjust? What if it's also not 292 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: working for white people? And we're fighting to get what 293 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: white people will have. We're fighting that white people think, 294 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: And it's just like, what if what if we get 295 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: what white people get? Will that then mean that few 296 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: of black people would die? And I don't think that's 297 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: true because white people kill our police all the time, 298 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: and I just don't want cops to go to prison 299 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: after they kill us. I want the killings to stop. 300 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: I wanted the violence to stop. And so it just 301 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: completely disrupted my noses of justice and fairness and equity 302 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 1: and I had to let go of that metric. I 303 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: had to ask, is it unfair that we don't have it? Yes? 304 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: But does it mean that it's real justice if we 305 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 1: get it? And that answer was not clear to me. 306 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: You know that is so illuminating because I think that 307 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: we spend a lot of times comparing comparing ourselves, right, 308 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 1: comparing what it is that black people don't have versus 309 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: what it is that white people have. The fact is 310 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: is that because we have qualified immunity in this country, 311 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: because you can just be a cop and you can 312 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: fear for your life regardless of who is in front 313 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: of you, kill them and then go home, is in 314 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: fact the problem right and right now. Now, you know, 315 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: just last week we had, after eight months of supposed 316 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: deliberation and back and forth between you know, a Senator 317 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: Corey Booker and Senator Tim Scott, they want to come 318 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: out and be like, Nope, the gap is too large 319 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: for us to do anything about policing reform. So this 320 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: moment of George Floyd having his life squeeze out of 321 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 1: him for nine minutes that we all watched together, they 322 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: want to tell us after eight months, well, we just 323 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: can't do anything, so we stay with the status quo 324 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 1: or devolve even worse into the place that we are. 325 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: What does that feel like? How did that feel to you? 326 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying? Like? After we all 327 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: witnessed this collectively in the midst of quarantine, where we 328 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: are all glued to our devices, glued to our television 329 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: and witnessed this collective horror together. And now eight months 330 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: later they tell us that what we thought was the 331 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: spark of some thing new is now it's just too 332 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: big to do. Yeah. So I felt I think two 333 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: immediate things. The first thing that I felt was immediately 334 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: sympathy for George Floyd's family, because, you know, Joe Biden 335 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: had promised them I'm gonna champion police reform. I intend 336 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: to keep that promise. I got you, We're gonna name 337 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,479 Speaker 1: this after George Floyd. We're gonna, you know, put you 338 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: on front stage at the Democratic National Convention. We're gonna 339 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: rally him. He was doing all of this while also 340 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: still promising to give more money to police, but he 341 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: you ultimately did. So he's walking this fide. You know, 342 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: we're gonna achieve real justice and policing that everyone can enjoy, 343 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna give more money to the police. Okay. 344 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: So I felt horrible for George Floyd's family to have 345 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: that hope. To think that someone you're campaigning for, your 346 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: trying to get them in office, you're on college trying 347 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 1: to get policy passed. It hurts to think what that 348 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: family is going going through right now. The second the 349 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: second thing that I felt, how can I just what's 350 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 1: the most honest way to say this. It's not that 351 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: I was not surprised, It's not that I felt let down. 352 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 1: Because when the George Floyd Act was initially introduced, I 353 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,719 Speaker 1: wrote in my column and I completely just I just 354 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: completely disagree with everything about that bill. So here we 355 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: have a policing bill that I argue wouldn't have even 356 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: saved George Floyd's life, right you know, Derek Chauvin was called. 357 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: Police were called because over an alleged use of a 358 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: counterfeit twenty dollars bill, which is illegal, and if he 359 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: used it, it is illegal, and cops have a constitutional 360 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: power to stop people who's using counterfeit money. You can 361 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: go to jail right now, people watch that is just 362 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: like man over twenty dollars, over twenty dollars. Counterfeit twenty 363 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: dollars bills are an important currency for people who are 364 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: economically and exploited. And we're in a session job crises, 365 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: eviction crises. What could have actually helped people like George Floyd, 366 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: people like my mom, people in our communities was resources, 367 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: more stimulus, actual money. And so if the couple would 368 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: have just came and arrested George Floyd took in the jail, 369 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: there would have been no uprisings, no protests, they would 370 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: have been no like And that's what happens every single day. 371 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: So when I read this bill, I was just like 372 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: the way, at the end of the day, what the 373 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: actual problem was was, you know, people working class people, 374 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: black people living on twenty dollars, counterfeit exchanges. Being police 375 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: now has become a way to give police more money, 376 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: to do more training, to restrict chokeholds. Well, what about 377 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: the poor? Why don't we give them more money to people? 378 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: Why don't we give them more money to police? And 379 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I called it in 380 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: that piece and I called it in this piece around 381 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: a couple of days ago. Whenever these reforms get you know, 382 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: they go on tour. What ultimately happens, police get more 383 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: money until the next viral police killing and all the 384 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: reforms that don't even work get put off to the side, 385 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: and three people are still killed every day by police. 386 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: And so it's frustrating that people have to be like, man, 387 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: I really have hope in this bill. I really have 388 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: hope in this policy, and I didn't have any hope 389 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: and it was quite bad, actually, right, it was pretty bad. 390 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: And then it's just like, well, now what now? What 391 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: do you do? So reform isn't a realistic option, like 392 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: and now he's abolist is not realistic? Reform is not realistic. 393 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because I have been moving myself 394 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: towards a place where I'm like, I don't even want 395 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: to use the terms reform or reimagine, because you're reimagining 396 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: something that is broken, right, Like you how do you 397 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: reform something? How do you reform a leg that's been amputated? 398 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: You don't, right, Like, you need to create something different. 399 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: And I think for me that's why abolition in and 400 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: of itself feels right, because it is the most honest 401 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: thing because if you want to, if you want to 402 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: create a new system, you don't do so off of 403 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: what is broken, right. You have to abolish what is 404 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: what is present in order to create something new. And 405 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: I feel like that's that's where the energy needs to 406 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: be placed, which is that it's not enough to just say, oh, 407 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: we're going to reform, We're gonna reimagine, we're going to reassess, 408 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: and we're gonna do all of these things, which is 409 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: pretty much playing three card monte with people's lives. You're 410 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: just moving the cards around the table and you're not 411 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: actually doing anything. It's a bullshit magic trick, right, that 412 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 1: doesn't produce that doesn't produce anything. Um, when when you 413 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: hear the pushback when people talked about defund the police, 414 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: right and folks had said, you know, we should we 415 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: shouldn't say defund, And to your point, at various points 416 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: in the book, you're like, you know, if if we're not, 417 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: if we're if we're if we're talking about reallocation of funds, 418 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: Like then that's the conversation that that's what I have said, 419 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: if we're if defund the police is really talking about 420 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: a reallocation of funds to stop having where I sit 421 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: in New York City, a police department that has a 422 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: budget of six billion dollars, Like when when you know 423 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, So it's like, it is that language. 424 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: Should it be reallocation, should it be defund? Does it 425 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: matter if if we're still again playing three card monte 426 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: with our criminal justice and policing systems. Yeah, well, I 427 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: like defund the police for lots of reasons. One reason 428 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: is because in twenty fourteen, when Black Lives Matter took 429 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: off as a hashtag, people said black lives matter was divisive, 430 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: like it's polarizing. All lives matter. I mean a lot 431 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: of people didn't say that, not in good faith. It's like, what, 432 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: we'll be on board with police not killing black people, 433 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: but he said black lives matter, So I can't. I 434 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: can't even get It's like, come on, like seriously, so 435 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: if something's black lives matter, it's polarizing that they just matter. 436 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: Like it's like the floor the bar is so low, 437 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: like it's so solo. Right. The second thing I noticed 438 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: around Black Lives Matter is that anyone, once it became 439 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: more palatable, anyone could kind of say black lives matter 440 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: and it not really need anything that much anymore. You 441 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: can say black lives matter to defund the police. You 442 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: can say black lives matter to give more fundy to 443 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: the police and say black communities want this. Sacks fifth 444 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: Avenue was saying black lives matter. Everyone was just sort 445 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: of saying black lives matter. But guess what black lives 446 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: kept dying, right, black people being killed. What's interesting about 447 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: defund the police is that it's a specific policy demand. 448 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: It's like, take money away from the police. It's much 449 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: harder to then just co op something like that. Right. 450 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: I'm not saying it can't be done, because I've seen 451 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: it attempted be them. But it's different. It's not as 452 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: soft as Black lives matter for lack of a better 453 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: phrase right now, And so that's another thing. The third 454 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: thing I would say is that any fight towards freedom 455 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 1: and justice has always used unpopular language at the time 456 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: of the fight, and then thirty forty fifty years from now, 457 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: what do we do We say? Man, I'm so happy 458 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: that they march for civil rights. Do you know what 459 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: it was like to say that you were marching for 460 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: civil rights in nineteen fifties civil rights? Oh, you must 461 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: be a criminal, you're a troublemaker, as if they call MLK. 462 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: You know, it's to say that you wanted women to 463 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: be able to vote. It's imagine a man in the 464 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: early nineteen hundred saying whoa, whoa, whoa. I would be 465 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 1: on board with women voting, but I don't like the 466 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: words suffrage. Like this age what we're doing when you 467 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: say right, if the phrase it's seriously the barrier, then 468 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: let's figure out how to explain what the phrase means. 469 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,320 Speaker 1: But I imagine I would have guessed at the people 470 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: who actually don't like the phrase, most of them, not 471 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: all of them. I've met a couple of people have 472 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: really interesting critical arguments and defund the police and abolition right, 473 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: and they are coming from a socialist analysis. They say, 474 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: how do we build a broad basis? People who probably 475 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 1: agree with what you're saying but don't understand what it means. 476 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: But they are committed to explaining what it means, right, 477 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: which is different than I would get on board, but 478 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: I don't like the language. So you gotta let police 479 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: continue to kill three people a day because of a 480 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: marketing campaign, Well, help us think about, you know, creative 481 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: language and creative ways to explain what abolition is. And 482 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: so part of that is on abolitionists when we say abolition. 483 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 1: When I say abolition, I mean we need to dismantle, eradicate, 484 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: reduce the reasons why people need police, and we need 485 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: to eradicate the institution of policing, and we need to 486 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: eradicate the violence in society. That make people feel that 487 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: they need police. It's both at the same time, and 488 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: it's over time. Right. So if that's on us to 489 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: do that, what society what people who don't know what 490 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: that means. It's also on them to ask questions, to 491 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: be curious, to critically engage the faith, to read to 492 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: you know, to ask it's it requires both of that. 493 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: But if you are not even open to having a 494 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: conversation because of a term you don't understand, I think 495 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: that's quite unfortunate. And I think there are a lot 496 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 1: of resources I hate to learn more about what that means. 497 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: I appreciate that so very much because I think you 498 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: know too. One of the lies that we continue to 499 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: tell in our society with regard to policing is that 500 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: more police equals more safety. Oh yeah. And the thing 501 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: that I have been saying on woke f you know, 502 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: interviews with former police chiefs, interviews with abolitionists, activists like yourself, 503 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: is the fact that any I grew up in a 504 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,919 Speaker 1: very white suburb of New York on Long Island, and 505 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: I will tell you that I never saw a police 506 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: officer ever, right, Like, that was not a part of 507 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: my data to if I did maybe they were, you know, 508 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: driving past on you know, on the main strip. What 509 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: I did see were clean sidewalks, tree line streets, gated communities, 510 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: country clubs, and resource centers and libraries and all of 511 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: these things. And so, you know, one of the questions 512 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: that another question that I have for you is how 513 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: do we break that lie that gas alight about the 514 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: fact that when we're talking about defund the police, that 515 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: there's this association, well, oh, you don't want to be safe, 516 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:45,439 Speaker 1: And I'm like, some of the safest neighborhoods have no 517 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,839 Speaker 1: police presence. What are you talking about? What they do 518 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: have a resources and access? Absolutely yes, So that's and 519 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: the inverse is also true. Right if you look at 520 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: where I grew up in Saint Louis, I did not 521 00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: grew up in the community in tree line streets. It 522 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: was very much, very very much the hood still is 523 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: the hood. We haven't had a grocery store since two thousand, 524 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: the year two thousand. Not a grocery store, not a 525 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: fruit market, not a community garden in sight, no health clinics, 526 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: no jobs because the highway ripped apart the most prosperous 527 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: place where black people were employed by a black businesses 528 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,479 Speaker 1: ripped all those homes. Community business has gone, so people 529 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: could commute from the suburbs to downtown Saint Louis to work, right, 530 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: And so you look at a community like that, We 531 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: look at Chicago, you look at DC where I'm sitting 532 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: right now, in northwest, super high rates of like violent crime, 533 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: also among the highest per capital rates of police. And 534 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: so the police presence also doesn't reduce the violence that 535 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: people fear. It's just not. And every time, like right now, 536 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: we're experienced a murder hike, probably because we're in the pandemic. 537 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: People are stressed out, there are fewer jobs, there's an 538 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: eviction ais that's happening. There's so much precarity that leads 539 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: people to more vulnerable situations. And when there's precarity and 540 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,280 Speaker 1: vulnerability and a pandemic, there's violence. Like we know, the 541 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: researchers know this, scientists know this. But then you read 542 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: the New York Times, you read mainstream outlets, and it's like, 543 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: y'all want to defund the police while there's a murder 544 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: spike right now, Well tell me why with a million 545 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,439 Speaker 1: cops in those places, especially in Chicago, Saint Louis, Detroit, DC, 546 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 1: these neighborhoods, there's more police than anywhere else you have, 547 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: the murder rate is still climbing. It's yeah, so more 548 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: police doesn't even equate to more in safety. What it 549 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: feels like, it feels like, okay, at least somebody's here 550 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: to do something. But it's not until cops are standing 551 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: outside of people's homes every night, guarding and stopping violence. 552 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: That's not what's happening, right, So it's it's yeah, it's 553 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: the inverse is not you as well. So it's like, well, 554 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,760 Speaker 1: what actually keeps people safe? You no resources, strong social 555 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: networks and patient jobs, you know, pushing back on racism, homophobia, transphobia. 556 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,879 Speaker 1: You know. The one of the main reasons why people 557 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: even kill people in the first place is because usually 558 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: men want to control the sexuality of their partners. That 559 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 1: leads to violence because you've been conditioning to patriarchy. Another 560 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,879 Speaker 1: reason why people end up killing each other is because 561 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: of petty arguments and usually as men, something said and assulted, 562 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: but I have an idea of what a man should be. 563 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: Police can't stop patriarchy. They can't fix patriarchy, so they 564 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,799 Speaker 1: can't get to the root problem of solving harm. You know, 565 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 1: people join like street games for protection, and then if 566 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: you arrest people who are carrying a gun on them 567 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: for protection and because they're no jobs, like none of 568 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: that stuff is not our communities. And then they go 569 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: to jail, they come out, they have a record. It's 570 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: gonna be even harder for them to get a job, 571 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: harder for them to get in school, harder for them 572 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: to get housing. So they're going to retreat to the 573 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: place where they feel most safe. It's like, how do 574 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: we support all of those people? How do we fight 575 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: for broad sweeping changes so that people can be empower 576 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 1: and have self determination to work in jobs where they 577 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: have dignity right where they have choices, where they have 578 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 1: childcare and healthcare and tuition. It like, it's all of 579 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: those answers are there, and it's actually much cheaper to 580 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: just fund police who primarily recruited from the working class 581 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:26,320 Speaker 1: to police other working class people. It's really really bad. Well, 582 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: I will say this, Ica, is that I believe that 583 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 1: your book is incredibly important and important in this particular 584 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: moment that we are living in, and I hope that 585 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:45,320 Speaker 1: everyone picks up becoming abolitionists and thinks about that word 586 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: thinks about that action and why it matters, and instead 587 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: of just shrugging off phrases like defund the police or 588 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: phrases like the black Lives Matter, phrases like you know 589 00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: abolition that you actually begin to understand and hack why 590 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: we are saying those things now and why they matter. 591 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: Dereka Purnell, I wish you the best of success with 592 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 1: your book, Becoming Abolitionists, and I hope that you will 593 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: join us again when you finish your successful tour, because 594 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 1: I would love to have you back. Yes, please have me. 595 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed this. Thank you for all of you, 596 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 1: our kindness and your thoughtful question. I really appreciate it, 597 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 1: appreciate you. Thank you. That is it for me today. 598 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: Folks on woke f as always, Power to the people 599 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 1: and to all the people. Power, Get woke and stay 600 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:44,760 Speaker 1: woke as fuck.