1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: This isn't just about teenage girls like in stores being exploited. 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: It's about exploitation on every level. 3 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 2: There are no girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 3: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget 5 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 3: Todd and this is there are no girls on the Internet. 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 2: Have you ever shot at a Brandy Melvell? Okay? 7 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 3: So, the Brandy Melvell look is just the right kind 8 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 3: of fade on a vintage jacket or a T shirt 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 3: that fits in just the right kind of way. She's 10 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 3: California cool, effortless. She also happens to be thin, white, 11 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 3: and conventionally attractive. So just who is Brandy Melvell. The 12 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 3: shadowy fast fashion chain was founded and run by Italian 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 3: CEO Stephan Marshawn, and under his direction, Brandy Melvell reached 14 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 3: a kind of cult status with a certain subsection of 15 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 3: teenage girls. Even if you've never shopped there yourself, if 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 3: you have a young woman or girl in your life, 17 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 3: she's probably at least heard of it. They once became 18 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 3: known for their one size fits most sizing, and since 19 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 3: HBO's new documentary Brandy mel Hell and the Cult of 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 3: Fast Fashion, now more of the company's toxic practices are 21 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 3: coming to light. 22 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: I am Kate Taylor, and I'm a senior correspondent and 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: Business Insider. 24 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 3: Kate's reporting, which you can read in the show notes, 25 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 3: became the basis for the HBO documentary. Her work uncovers 26 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 3: the darker aspects of how businesses are run and who 27 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 3: gets exploited to make others rich. I also happen to 28 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 3: be kind of a super fan of Kate's writing. Kate, 29 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 3: I am so excited to be talking to you today. 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 3: I feel like anytime you drop a new piece, it 31 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 3: goes straight in my group chat because I know it's 32 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 3: going to be the kind of piece that we're talking about. 33 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 3: I am awaiting the docu version of the piece like that. 34 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 2: You are that kind of writer for me. 35 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Amazing to hear. It's such a 36 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: I have such a cool job at Business Insider, where 37 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: it is a lot of like doing deep dives into 38 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: whatever I'm super interested in, and like it's often like 39 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: I end up writing articles where I'm like, oh, I 40 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: wish I could read an article about this, and then 41 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: my editor is like, well, sounds like you have to 42 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: report it out. 43 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 3: So a lot of your reporting is taking these like big, 44 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 3: messy sometimes like business or corporate stories and then synthesizing 45 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 3: them down so your average person can really see, like 46 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 3: what's at stake or why they should even care even 47 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 3: about these stories that they might not even necessarily think 48 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 3: they care about or think impacts them in any capacity. 49 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,839 Speaker 3: How did you get into being that person who does 50 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 3: that with these these complicated stories. 51 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: My background is actually I was a business beat reporter 52 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: on the retail in restaurants speed so practically that meant 53 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: doing a ton of business reporting on fast food chains. 54 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: So I followed Subway really closely. I followed Starbucks really closely. 55 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: I followed McDonald's really closely, like listening in on earnings calls, 56 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: talking to executives, and. 57 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 4: For all of these things. 58 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,959 Speaker 1: I found it to be really fascinating how these kind 59 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: of wonky business decisions impacted the thousands and thousands of 60 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: people who ate at the chains, who worked at the chains. 61 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: So that was kind of my introduction into journalism, and 62 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: then going from there to being on our Features and 63 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: Investigations team, it kind of continued to be like, Okay, 64 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: how can we take these stories and make them important 65 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: to someone who doesn't think of themselves as someone who 66 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: wants to read a business publication or who wants to 67 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: kind of read something that might be a little bit 68 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: dry in how it's presented. 69 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 3: Sometimes this is exactly what I love about Kate's work. 70 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 3: She finds a story that is ostensibly a story about 71 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 3: the way a business is being run and drills down 72 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 3: into what it says about us as a culture and 73 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 3: why it matters. Like back in twenty fifteen, when Starbucks 74 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 3: announced that through their Race Together initiative, they'd be encouraging 75 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 3: their baristas to spark tough conversations about race with customers 76 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 3: just picking up their copies, and Kate was on it. 77 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 3: I remember the first story I read by you with 78 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 3: about I think it was when you were an entrepreneur 79 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 3: about Starbucks they. 80 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 2: Wanted to like have race conversations. Do you know what 81 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 2: I'm talking about. 82 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,559 Speaker 1: Yes, that was one of like I was a couple 83 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: of years into entrepreneur then, and like that was one 84 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: of the first articles where I was like, Okay, like there's. 85 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 4: More going on here, Like I want to kind of like. 86 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: Write about this conversation about this news instead of just 87 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: writing about the news, because like this is wild and 88 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: it was something that like was such a move that 89 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: you saw a lot like at that time, this was 90 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: in maybe. 91 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 4: Twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. 92 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: I think that like from then to twenty twenty you 93 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: saw this a lot where it was businesses making announcements 94 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: that they thought that would be good pr that then 95 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: like their in store employees were like, what are you doing? 96 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: Like this is putting us in such a strange position, 97 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: like we don't have training to deal with this. 98 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 3: Because Kate covers business, a lot of her stories are 99 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 3: unfortunately about wrongdoing, already marginalized people being treated badly, and 100 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 3: because some of the workplaces that she covers cater to 101 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 3: women or young people, companies like Brandy melvell or Nickelodeon. 102 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 3: Kate's coverage became the docu series Quiet on the Set, 103 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 3: uncovering workplace abuses at the Kids Entertainment Network. There's this 104 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 3: idea that it doesn't really matter what these companies' business 105 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 3: practices look like, because who cares. They're just some company 106 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 3: for teen girls. It's an attitude that lets businesses and 107 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 3: the people who run them get away with behaving badly 108 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 3: in plain sight, but not on Kate's watch. Something I 109 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 3: see in You're reporting these days, is that a lot 110 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 3: of the focus is on these things that I think 111 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 3: impact like women or young people, these these groups of 112 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 3: people that I feel like are traditionally marginalized, both in 113 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 3: society but also in sort of business coverage. Do you 114 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 3: think that stories like the you know, Brandy Melville story 115 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: that you reported, or the Nickelodeon story that you reported, 116 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 3: do you think that these issues sometimes skirt scrutiny because 117 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 3: people assume there's nothing serious going on there because it's 118 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 3: about women or kids or young people their teens completely. 119 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: And I think that especially the Brandy Melville story, that 120 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: was something where these court cases had already been filed 121 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: saying kind of these allegations that Brandy Melville was incredibly racist, 122 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: and you wouldn't have that happen at a major chain 123 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: that had, like I don't know, like a n Adida 124 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: is a Nike, even like a chain that serves adult women, 125 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: a J Crew. I think if those allegations had come 126 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: out about a chain that didn't specifically cater to teenage girls, 127 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: they would have already been front page news. And it 128 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: felt to me like this was overlooked because it was 129 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: a brand that was aimed at teenage girls, and it 130 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: was a ton of teenage girls who worked there, So yeah, 131 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: in that situation completely. I think that it's at some 132 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: level there is a disconnect where people just aren't as 133 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: aware of things, and like that talks to about who 134 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: ends up in journalism, Like it is a lot of 135 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: like older white men an older white woman who like 136 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: just are not as plugged into things, and like that's 137 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: how important stories don't get the investigations that are worthy. 138 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: And then I think that there is a level of 139 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: dismissal where it's like, oh, well, like does this matter? 140 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: Like fast fashion is bad, we already know that, Like 141 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: is it worth spending months looking into this specific chain? 142 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: Who is John Golf? 143 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 3: In the inn ran novel At Last Shrugged, who is 144 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 3: John Galt is a question repeated over and over again, 145 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 3: and the quest to discover his identity is. 146 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: At the core of the book. 147 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 3: Galt is revealed to be an inventor who believes people 148 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 3: should be using their talents, minds, and gifts solely to 149 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 3: benefit themselves and no one else. It's kind of easy 150 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 3: to see why this book has become something of a 151 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 3: foundational text for libertarians, and this reference is what sent 152 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 3: Kate down the rabbit of investigating the retailer Brandy Melville. 153 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 3: So walk me through how the Brandy Melvil piece came 154 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 3: to be, and like, you're interested in your coverage in it. 155 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: How did that start? 156 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: It came about in kind of this very roundabout way, 157 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: whereas talking to my friend who was my coworker at 158 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: the time, about how Brandy Melville had this kind of 159 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: sub brand, John Gould, and she was like, it's so 160 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: weird that they like are kind of making this weird 161 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,559 Speaker 1: libertarian reference. And I was like, yeah, that is weird. 162 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: Like I wonder who is running this, Like who's the CEO? 163 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: Is this owned by a larger company? I started googling. 164 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: I just couldn't find the CEO, and that as a 165 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: retail reporter, I was like, this is a this is 166 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: so rare, Like you can have one location and the 167 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: CEO is giving as many. 168 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 4: Interviews as he can get. 169 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: It's it's very rare for any CEO to avoid press 170 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: instead of go after press. But in this situation, you 171 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: have this super popular brand with a big social media 172 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: presence and the executive were really nowhere to be seen. 173 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 1: So from there I kind of started looking up business 174 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 1: filing started looking up court documents, and it was when 175 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: I was looking up court documents to find the CEO's 176 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: name that I came across these discrimination lawsuits where two 177 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: former executives said we were pretty much forced out because 178 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: we did not go along with the bias business practices, 179 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: and like, as I was reading through those lawsuits, I 180 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: really was struck by how over the top and bizarre. 181 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 4: These instances of bias were. 182 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: Where these were things whereas like, this is truly mind blowing, 183 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: And I went to my editor, I was like, hey, like, 184 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: these lawsuits are really really wild, Like I think that 185 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: there's a bigger story here. I think that we should 186 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: start talking to employees former employees and asking them about 187 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: their experiences. And that was one where like almost every 188 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: interview I had, it was just another level of disturbing material. 189 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break at her back. 190 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 3: The allegations against Brandy melvell are a horrifying mix of 191 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,719 Speaker 3: surveillance and sexual control, and even more horrifying that they 192 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 3: all involve very young girls teenagers. Teenagers were made to 193 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 3: photograph themselves every day and send the photos to the 194 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 3: store's owners. The owners also kept a button on the 195 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 3: register alerting the staff when they should take a photo 196 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 3: of a girl who was being wrung up. Sometimes girls 197 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:38,719 Speaker 3: shopping at the store would be offered a job on 198 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 3: the spot if the owners liked the way they looked. 199 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 3: Black employees or employees who did not fit a very 200 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 3: specific Brandy Melvell look, which is basically just white then 201 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 3: and conventionally attractive, were made to work in the back, 202 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 3: even if they had more retail experience. Young staff were 203 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 3: allowed to stay in company owned apartments in Manhattan, where 204 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 3: men who had some association with the company would also 205 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 3: be staying, unbel o to them. 206 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 2: At least one young woman was sexually assaulted. 207 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 3: The lawsuits and then the claims made in them are wild. 208 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 3: You really demonstrate how wild some of these things that 209 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 3: were happening at at these stores are. Like things like 210 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 3: the teenage employees taking photos of their breasts and feet 211 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 3: to give to the adult male owner, you know, having 212 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 3: the button on the desk to be like, oh, get 213 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 3: a photo of her. The thing that you reported about 214 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 3: how if the teenage employees changed in front of the 215 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 3: adult male owners, they knew that that meant they could 216 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 3: get raises. 217 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 2: And if they went to the bathroom to change in 218 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 2: private that was a no no. 219 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 3: Like all of these allegations are wild, but I feel 220 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,119 Speaker 3: like on its face, it's also just like a workplace 221 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 3: discrimination and like workplace sexual misconduct story. So like when 222 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 3: you were reporting this, like how did these issues play 223 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 3: out for me? 224 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: It kind of played out like where it goes from me, 225 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: like Okay, we have these really wild stories, like what 226 00:11:58,400 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: are the patterns you see here? 227 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 4: What are the patterns that are actually illegal? 228 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: So the patterns where it's like things almost fall into 229 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: buckets where you have things that were normalized to the 230 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: employees where they were like, okay, everyone got hired based 231 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: on a photo in their Instagram and then kind of 232 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: taking that and then being like who was getting hired? 233 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: It was definitely we could see like yeah, the white, 234 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: thin girls were getting hired and paid more while Latina 235 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: woman black women were being put in the stock room 236 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: and being paid less, and like going from that shocking 237 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: to managers and then being like, yes, this was not 238 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,599 Speaker 1: something that was like an accident or something that was 239 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: hidden at all, Like this was very explicit where they 240 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: would see someone who fit the brandy look and they'd 241 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: be like hire her, pay her this much, so that 242 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: was kind of how we moved from that, and then 243 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: like in each conversation, just kind of looking I have 244 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 1: this massive spreadsheet that had all the interviews I I 245 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: spoke with more than thirty current and former employees, and 246 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: kind of like just put like the big summary, but 247 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: then the checks like did this person experience or see 248 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: racism happening at work? Did this person feel like they 249 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: were sexually exploited? Like what were their other concerns about 250 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: Brandy Melville? And kind of just like tallying up how 251 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:23,119 Speaker 1: many people said that they saw certain behaviors and certain practices. 252 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 3: A lot of the people that you talked to for 253 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 3: the piece were probably young women and girls, right like 254 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 3: people who worked there. 255 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: Do you see them as whistleblowers? 256 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: I completely see them as whistleblowers. And it was not 257 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: something that was easy for a lot of them to do. 258 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: Most people want to remain anonymous. A lot of people 259 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: are really worried about what their repercussions might be. And 260 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: even like I had some of my sources email me 261 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: after the documentary came out and they were like, hey, 262 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: like I'm really like love. 263 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 4: How the documentary came out. 264 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: Like I was just too afraid to go on camera 265 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 1: for this because I didn't want to risk my career. 266 00:13:58,360 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 4: I didn't want. 267 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,719 Speaker 1: These executives to kind of come after me, and I 268 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: think that for them there's still this fear that that 269 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: could happen. The director told me she kind of was like, 270 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: this was harder to get people to go on the 271 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: record for than stories I've done about refugee camps or 272 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: like war crimes. This is something that was just so 273 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: so scary for people to talk about. 274 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 3: And I think the fact that we're talking about young 275 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 3: people it also I don't know, there's something to that 276 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 3: that it probably is really scary to go up against 277 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 3: this massive machine that has with intention, made it difficult 278 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 3: to go after them. That also really becomes more powerful 279 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 3: by being this big brand that every girl wants to 280 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 3: be part of. Of course you want to work for 281 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 3: Brandy Melvill, like it's the coolest job you could have. 282 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 3: It really takes some guts to go up against that. 283 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: Yes, And like for these girls now, young women, like 284 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: it's not just your job, it's your entire identity. Like 285 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: you've built this online identity doing this. All your friends 286 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: work there. A lot of these girls got kind of 287 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: a foot in the door in the fashion industry, and 288 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: a lot of them are like doing really cool things 289 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: in fashion now where they kind of like feel And 290 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: I think that this is common for a lot of 291 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: young people who experience workplace discrimination or sexual harassment in 292 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: the workplace. Like you almost feel like you don't want 293 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: to say something bad because you attribute all of your 294 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: successes to the person who victimized you in some ways, 295 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: so you feel like very torn and like, yeah, I 296 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: think that that's something that's really really hard for a 297 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: lot of these young women to kind of grapple with, like, oh, 298 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: but like, is my success now tied to Brandy Mailville, 299 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: Like do I owe them? Not Everyone feels that way obviously, 300 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: but I think that when people are thinking about building 301 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: their career, they don't want to kind of yeah, you 302 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: don't want to piss off the extremely powerful, middle aged 303 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: executive who gave you your first job at age fourteen. 304 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 2: That's so sad. 305 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 3: And I guess even for young people who didn't work 306 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 3: for Brandy Melvel but bought the clothes follow the Instagram, 307 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 3: maybe modeled the way that they present online because of 308 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 3: the Instagram. 309 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 2: I guess I see this in some ways. 310 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 3: As a story about the power of stoking a particular 311 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 3: kind of like anxiety or need in young people using 312 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: social media and how that can make bad men very wealthy. 313 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 3: Do you see this the Rise of Brandy Melvel as 314 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 3: a story about the rise of like social media and 315 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 3: its impact on youth. 316 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 4: Oh, totally. 317 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: I think that it is in some ways, like if 318 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: this wasn't such a horrific place to work, Like it's 319 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: a huge success story in using social media to create 320 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: incredible buzz around a brand, and I think that part 321 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: of the way that they did that was by giving 322 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: a lot of the control over to teenagers themselves, where 323 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: like people can look at these photos, especially the ones 324 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: like in peek Tumbler era, like five ten years ago, 325 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: where where it's like, okay, you can tell. I think 326 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: that like teenage girls are the ones taking these photos 327 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: and it feels like photos of their friends, where people 328 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: who are potential customers see that and like it feels like, oh, 329 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: this is an exclusive friend group that I want to 330 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: get into that I want to follow along with, versus 331 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: feeling like a commercial or like a model in a catalog, 332 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: and it just completely transfers, like it translates so much 333 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: better to social media than I think these more traditional 334 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: kind of catalog style photo shoots do. 335 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 3: Say what you will about Brandy Melvill, but their instagram 336 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 3: is on point. The photos kind of feel like writing 337 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 3: around in your friend's backseat, blasting music with the windows 338 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 3: open during a warm summer night. They really capture something 339 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 3: authentic about what it was like to be a team girl, 340 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 3: and that's probably because the photos are taken by team girls. 341 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 3: Brandy Melville used teen retail staff to fill roles typically 342 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 3: filled by creative professionals social media, photography, styling, fashion and 343 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 3: trend research. Sometimes the higher ups would literally take the 344 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 3: shirt off of a staffer's back to sell a version 345 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 3: of it in the store now on its space. The 346 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 3: idea of teen girls being the creative force behind a 347 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: brand that is marketed to other teen girls makes a 348 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 3: lot of sense. The only problem is, despite doing the 349 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 3: work of creative professionals, the staff doing this work or 350 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 3: not being. 351 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 2: Paid like creative professionals. 352 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 3: In the documentary just feels like, in a kind of way, 353 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 3: more exploitation, because these girls are like doing the work 354 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 3: of a social media manager or a creative director and like. 355 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 2: Not being paid for it. They're being paid. 356 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 3: In like vibes and like, oh, you got to be 357 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 3: featured on our Instagram. 358 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,719 Speaker 2: Don't you feel cool? It's like, well, that's actually a 359 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 2: job that has compensated me in money. 360 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: It's like, I mean, it's one of those things where 361 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: it's like oh wow, like they're really like from what 362 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: I've heard, like they were able to achieve a lot 363 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: of financial success. And it's like, yeah, obviously it's going 364 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: to cost less if you are getting a seventeen year 365 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: old to kind of pick these designs and you're paying 366 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,719 Speaker 1: her under twenty dollars an hour or versus like paying 367 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: someone a salary who has gone to actually gone to 368 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: school for this, And yeah, it's something where like it's 369 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: by believing in the kind of ability of these teenage 370 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: girls to track trends, to like know what's cool, Like 371 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: they were able to like both have their finger on 372 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: the pulse, but also to like save a ton of 373 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: money and really exploit these teenage employees because like, yes, 374 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: like the photographers, the people who are kind of determining 375 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: the fashion, the people who are modeling for this should 376 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: have been paid much more than what they were paid. 377 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's easy to have record process when you're not 378 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 3: paying people and you're just like exploiting them. 379 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really like and it's something that I do think, 380 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 1: Like thinking about Brandy Melville versus like Rookie Magazine ten 381 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: years ago, it's almost to me two sides of the 382 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 1: same coin, where like Rookie was a place that was 383 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: also very much run by teenage girls, like around what 384 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: teenage girls understood was cool, but that was for teenage girls, 385 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: Like it wasn't like there was some shady middle aged 386 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: Italian man. 387 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 4: Profiting off of that. And I think that Brandy. 388 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: Melville, what makes it really disturbing to me is that 389 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: this is kind of both you have this small group 390 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: of male executives who are profiting off of these teenage girls. 391 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: Kind of they're brilliance and like, but also like the 392 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: grossest part of being a teenage girl, like to feel 393 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 1: like there's only one way to be attractive, to feel 394 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: like there's only a certain image of certain body size 395 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: that is going to make you popular and make you cool. 396 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: And I think that it's almost like these really toxic 397 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: ideas about popularity in high school, like basically writ large 398 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: and like is the brand DNA for this chain? 399 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's like they say, like that's not you 400 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 3: or eye gleaning that. That's like the owner explicitly saying 401 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 3: we want thin, white, pretty girls wearing our garments, like 402 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 3: like we want those are who we want shopping in 403 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 3: the store, that's who we want working at the store. 404 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 3: That's what we want On the Instagram, it's like explicit. 405 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, Like I feel like now most fashion retailers, 406 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: even if there is some subtext like that's what they want, 407 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,239 Speaker 1: Like no, we have executives at Brady Melville who told me, know, 408 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 1: this was our. 409 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 4: Explicit like word for word play. 410 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: And like, we do not want people who do not 411 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: fit this image shopping at or working at the stores. 412 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: And if they do, like we want to very actively 413 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: exclude them, and if you don't, your job is basically 414 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: on the line. 415 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 3: In the documentary, they show a scene where one of 416 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 3: the stores even has like skinny doors where you have 417 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 3: to sort of turn to physically enter the door, which 418 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 3: I had never heard before. I was like, oh my god, 419 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 3: they're they're very serious about who they want in these stores. 420 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 2: Like literally it's. 421 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: Wild and like that it was like a meme online 422 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: for a while, or it is like all these like 423 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: tiny little spaces like must be this small to like 424 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: fit into Brandy Mailville, like it's the one size thing 425 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: is so kind of well known that it's become a 426 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: meme in its own right. And like when I started 427 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: looking into this even that I was shocked that this 428 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: was how a Britain was functioning and that people were 429 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: okay with it. 430 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 3: So I haven't been a teenage girl for a very 431 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 3: long time, but I remember my adolescence very well. So 432 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 3: I think for a lot of us, like it's something 433 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 3: that we carry around and in some ways, I still 434 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 3: feel like I'm fifteen year old bridget. 435 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:34,479 Speaker 2: Even though I'm an adult. 436 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 3: And so when I was growing up, I remember that 437 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 3: what made you cool was to sort of stand out, 438 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 3: to be different, Like that was like what was cool 439 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 3: when I was growing up. And I wonder if social 440 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 3: media has kind of led to the opposite, where what's 441 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 3: cool it's to sort of like fit in and sort 442 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 3: of all look the same, all have this like very 443 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 3: sort of similar aesthetic. And I wonder if maybe Brandy 444 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 3: melvell was just sort of like taking advantage of that 445 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 3: that like right now it's cool to all have this 446 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 3: like California girl look for teen girls, let's really sell 447 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 3: that back to them in an aggressive way via social media. 448 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: I think it's almost two competing urges where it's like, 449 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: I wonder, because there's been so much movement with the 450 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: next generation with Gen Z to kind of be like, Okay, 451 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: we want to have more diversity in fashion, we want 452 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: to have more sized diversity, we want more racial diversity. 453 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: But then also, like Brandy Melville is super popular, I 454 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: think that Brandy was able to keep an eye on 455 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: these trends while also making people kind of feel like, Okay, 456 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: you're fitting in. But it has these little flashes of 457 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: being able to be like, Okay, this is this is 458 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,479 Speaker 1: special where like they along with the really California cool thing, 459 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: they'll have times where they do a lot of vintage 460 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: in inspired stuff, which I feel like vinjage is of 461 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: the yeah for me in high school, Like if you're 462 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: someone who has like cool vintage stuff, like, oh, you're putting. 463 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 4: More time into this, like you know, you're cool. 464 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: In a different way than like the people who are 465 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: wearing Abercrombie or Hollister. And I think the Brandy kind 466 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 1: of is trying to straddle both of those sides, where 467 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: it's like you have the very preppy the California, those 468 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: kinds of looks, and then on the other side you 469 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: also have oh, like this is as if you went 470 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: to a vintage store yourself, but no, it's actually just 471 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: been screened by a seventeen year old living in Santa 472 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: Monica who got the boss's credit card and got to 473 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: like take a day going to thrift shops. 474 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 2: Wow. 475 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 3: So for folks this is actually a great question for 476 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 3: folks who don't know, how would you describe the Brandy 477 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 3: Melville style the look. 478 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: I think that the Brandy Melville look, it keeps evolving, 479 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: and that's something that they have been able to continue doing. 480 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: I think for a long time it was very California cool, casual, 481 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: like lots of oversized, and then it's evolved to be 482 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: a bit more vintage. It definitely was going through very 483 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: much like a preppy phase for a while, but they 484 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: have a lot of just like basics where like the 485 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: little kind of white tank tops, the short shorts. 486 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 4: Right now, how. 487 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: I think of their stuff as like very like a 488 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 1: little bit timeless, a little bit nineties, and it feels 489 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: like it feels like it's something that you can look 490 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: at and be like, oh, this is just these little 491 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: touches that even me, thinking back to when I was 492 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: in high school, I could imagine like a popular just 493 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: like tiny, tiny cheerleader style girl like wearing and me 494 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: being like, oh, I couldn't wear that, like I'm too big, 495 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: like I'm too awkward, like I just I couldn't pull 496 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: that off. 497 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 2: I feel the exact same way. 498 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 3: Isn't it funny how they're able to like me, I'm 499 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 3: in adult woman, and they're still able to signal to me, 500 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 3: somebody who has not been in high school for a 501 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 3: very long time, exactly what you just said that, like, oh, 502 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 3: this is what the pretty popular, blonde skinning girl wears. 503 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 2: You're you would never be able to pull this off. 504 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: She pulls it off like, and like they're they're able 505 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: to evoke that so well. 506 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 4: I know, like there weren't even cheerleaders in my high school. 507 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 4: I don't know why I said that. That is the same. 508 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 2: Like I went to an all girls Catholic school. We 509 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 2: didn't have cheerleaders. We all were the same thing. 510 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 3: And yet I know exactly what they are tapping into, 511 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 3: like they are very good. 512 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: Yes, it's this like very delicate kind of femininity that 513 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 1: like feels I think to a lot of people like oh, 514 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: like I can't, I can't do that, or like oh 515 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: I want to achieve that, but like I'll never feel 516 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: like right. It was I actually, while reporting this story, 517 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: I went into a Brandy mailvill because we were with 518 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: our photographer, and I was like, Okay, we have to 519 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: like get photos for the article, like we don't want to, 520 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: like we wanted to kind of go into the flagship 521 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: and see if we could see some of the things 522 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: the girls talked about to like corroborate certain things to 523 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: be like okay, yes, like there's where they pushed the 524 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: button when they see girls that they want to higher, 525 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: and like I tried on the clothes and it was 526 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: just like it was a very kind of out of 527 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: body experience to be like, yeah, like I am kind 528 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: of like I am a straight sized woman. I kind 529 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: of like I fit into most clothes. I can find 530 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: clothes that fit me in most stores. And I was like, 531 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: there's no way that I could like go in public 532 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: wearing this. 533 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 3: No, it's that one size fits most is really yeah, 534 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,719 Speaker 3: it's it's it's so wild, but you're right, it's almost 535 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 3: like a meme at this point. 536 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's really really wild. It also just made 537 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,239 Speaker 1: me feel like I'm thirty two. I was like, I 538 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: feel so old right now in this store. 539 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 3: The only time I've ever got into a Brandy Melvella 540 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 3: had the exact same experience. 541 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: And I also was like. 542 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 3: Watching the reading your Piece and watching the documentary, I 543 00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 3: was like, oh, I see what that was. Now I've 544 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 3: only got into one and I was like, I feel 545 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 3: like the people working here don't. 546 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 2: Want to help me. 547 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 3: And now I'm like, oh, they probably had zero retail experience, 548 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 3: zero training because they were just hired from their instagram. 549 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 4: Yeah. 550 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. It was like so many of the people who 551 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 1: I talked with would be like it was so frustrating. 552 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: We would like find someone who had retail experience and 553 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: be like please, can we hire her, and they'd be 554 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: like no, like she doesn't fit our image. Like I 555 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: remember talking to one former employee and she's like, we 556 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: would like we face tuned this girl in the photo 557 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: we said, because we're like, she has experience, she's good 558 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: with customers, and was like, we just want her, so 559 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: we're going. 560 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 4: To face tune her, like so hopefully she gets hired and. 561 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: Like, yeah, imagine being like please, just like let me 562 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: hire some competent, and there's ones like eh, like I 563 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: don't know, like she's a couple of pounds too heavy. 564 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 2: Wow. 565 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 3: And I mean, something that the documentary really lays out 566 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 3: in a fascinating way is that it's really the system 567 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 3: where everybody is being exploited. The employees are being exploited, 568 00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 3: the girls buy the clothes are being exploited. 569 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 2: The countries in the. 570 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 3: Global South were like the clothing ends up, like they're 571 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 3: pressured into taking these clothes once the West throws them 572 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 3: out because they're fast fashioned, they fall apart, are being exploited. 573 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 3: Do you see this as all sort of linked, like 574 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 3: triggering the anxieties of these young girls and then making 575 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 3: money on clothing sales, which in turn for there's the 576 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 3: exploitation of these folks in the Global South. Like it 577 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 3: just feels like one big system where we are all losing. 578 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 4: Yes completely. 579 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: And I think that that was something that in my 580 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: original investigation I didn't get into as much. But Eva Warner, 581 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: the director of the documentary, kind of I feel like 582 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: she really made it her mission to kind of take 583 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: it the next step to say like this isn't just 584 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: about this one fashion line, like this is It's like 585 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: one link in this wider system of destruction in how 586 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: it impacts all these people. So I think that, yeah, 587 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: I really like appreciated that Eva the director took it 588 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: there and was willing to push things to the next step. 589 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: This isn't just about teenage girls like in stores being exploited. 590 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 4: It's about exploitation on every level. 591 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 2: More. 592 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 3: After a quick break, let's get right back into it. 593 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 3: If you were on the internet like I was in 594 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 3: the odds, you probably remember what some people called hipster racism. 595 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 3: I remember that time feeling like the peak of people 596 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 3: masking racism or sexism, or fat phobia or other harmful 597 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 3: attitudes with memes or off colored jokes about women, Jewish people, 598 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 3: black people, and fat people. And that's really what I 599 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 3: was reminded of when I saw some of the chatter 600 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 3: happening between staffers and Brandy Melville higher ups in a 601 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,239 Speaker 3: company group chat. I know all too well how this 602 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 3: kind of thing can be used to normalize toxic attitudes 603 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 3: and ideologies under the guise of it's just a joke, 604 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 3: don't be so sensitive something that you really flesh out with, 605 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 3: like screenshots that are quite disturbing in the piece are 606 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 3: this how these like senior staffers, like the highest level 607 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 3: folks would be in these company group chats, spreading anti 608 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 3: semitic and misogynistic and racist and fat phobic memes and 609 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 3: language in these group texts and reading those. Something about 610 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 3: this reminded me of being online in the twenty tens, 611 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 3: when like quote, hipster racism was sort of in vogue, 612 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 3: like like, oh, how kind of like wink wink, am 613 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 3: I joking kind of racism? And I remember being online 614 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 3: at that time and it was like if you were 615 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 3: bothered by that, you were sensitive, you didn't get the 616 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 3: joke whatever, When in reality, I think looking back, what 617 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 3: was actually going on was that a generation of younger 618 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 3: people was being introduced to these very dangerous ways of 619 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 3: thinking while masking it in like jokes and softness. And 620 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 3: I'm sort of reminded of like the John Galt iconography 621 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 3: within Brandy Melville stores and things like that, like do 622 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 3: you see this as kind of introducing young people to 623 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 3: a very specific social or political ideology When they're just 624 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 3: like shopping for genes or whatever, they might not realize 625 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 3: like oh, like what am I? 626 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 2: What am I actually being introduced here? 627 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 4: I think yes to a degree. 628 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's so interesting what you said 629 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: about like growing up online with like the hipster racism, 630 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: Like this to me feels so in line with that, 631 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: like where all of these things were like, oh, it's jokes, 632 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: but it was like I also very much crew up 633 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,239 Speaker 1: online in that era, and these were some of like 634 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: the more horrific images and like memes that I had 635 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: seen where it was just like another level of anti smotism, 636 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: another level of racism, like I mean, just really graphic 637 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: images of pornography, even where it's something you see, Oh, 638 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: like what if we took four Chan and then that 639 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: was like the company group chat with all these male executives, 640 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: And I think that that kind of beyond being like, oh, 641 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: this is obviously offensive, it is just shocking to see 642 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: how that can be transferred over if that is normalized 643 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: at an organization, and if this is something that is 644 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: kind of being passed on to the customer, I think 645 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: yes and no. I think honestly, the thing that feels 646 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: more disturbing to me is that these were people who 647 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: were marketing and making their money off of teenage girls, 648 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: and these thoughts weren't like it's not like they were 649 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: making a shirt that has like an anti Semitic joke 650 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: on it or racist joke on it. But this is 651 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: kind of how they are thinking of a lot of 652 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: their customers behind their backs, where they're kind of like 653 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: they're making jokes in these group chats about women that 654 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: they work with. They're kind of joking about all these 655 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: different things, and like that is it's a different kind 656 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: of disturbing than to like passing to pass that idea 657 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: through the company. It's like the subterfuge, the like too 658 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: faced nature of it is gross in a different way totally. 659 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 3: And given all of this, you know, the anti semitism, 660 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 3: the racism, the taking pictures of young girl's feed and breast, 661 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 3: the allegations of sexual assault, like really dark stuff. The 662 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 3: thing that really I cannot even believe. When your piece 663 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 3: is published, it's basically crickets. They don't put out a statement, 664 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 3: they turn off their comments for a little while, and 665 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 3: that's basically it. And I guess thinking about this in 666 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 3: context like these days, I feel like particularly brands that 667 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,879 Speaker 3: their customer base as young people. I think a lot 668 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,720 Speaker 3: of young people really expect a level of social responsibility 669 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 3: from their brands that they that they engage with. 670 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 2: Why do you think that this was the reaction? The 671 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 2: reaction was like nothing, crickets. 672 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: I think that part of it is because people are like, well, 673 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: Brady Melville, we know it's controversial because of the one 674 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 1: size fits all thing. 675 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 4: So I think that people are like, oh, there's more criticism, 676 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 4: but it's. 677 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: Almost they've already sorted into this bucket where they're like, oh, 678 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, it's not perfect, but whatever versus. I 679 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: think that if the same allegations came out about a 680 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 1: company that was seen as really sustainable or socially good, 681 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: it might have. 682 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 4: A different reaction. 683 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: I think that Brandy it doubles down both behind the 684 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: scenes and publicly as kind of not caring about this, 685 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: of being politically correct is like the worst thing you 686 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,720 Speaker 1: can do, like that you shouldn't care about these things. 687 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: So I think that by doing that, it almost allowed 688 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: them not to have as much of a reaction when 689 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: this news came out. But I still like that is 690 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: something I'm still grappling with. I've talked to kind of 691 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: some teenagers since the documentary came out, and some of 692 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: them have been like, oh, do you think that this 693 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: is gonna hurt Brandy Melville, I'm like, I don't know, Like, 694 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: what do you think? You probably have a better understanding 695 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: of how the actual customer base is going to respond 696 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: than I do. 697 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 2: Huh. 698 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 3: I wonder are there ways in which that like is 699 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 3: a response to the current climate that we're in now, 700 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 3: where we have all this like backlash to wokeism and 701 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,879 Speaker 3: all of that, where it's like, actually, what's in vogue 702 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 3: right now is not caring about marginalized people and making 703 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,399 Speaker 3: horrible jokes about them behind their back. 704 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, And I think that that is like 705 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: kind of purposeful, Like it's something where it's like, oh, well, 706 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: like if you don't try to support marginalized people, then 707 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: you can be criticized for it, which to me is 708 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: really like disturbing and wild and shouldn't be that way. 709 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: But it's almost by not trying at all, and by 710 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: making your identity not trying, you are able to already 711 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,839 Speaker 1: have your kind of base of customers be people who 712 00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: are not prioritizing this, and are not prioritizing about racism 713 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 1: or thinking about antisemitism or thinking about, oh my money 714 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: is funding something that maybe I don't personally agree with. 715 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 3: And it's kind of scary to think about that being 716 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 3: really popular, Like that sentiment being something that you can make, 717 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 3: that you can vote for via your dollars, that you 718 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 3: can identify with via what you wear. 719 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 2: Like, that's just kind of disturbing to me. 720 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 3: That the way that that kind of apathy can be 721 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 3: packaged as really cool and popular. 722 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that even the response to the documentary, 723 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: I've seen tiktoks kind of people being like, oh, like 724 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,959 Speaker 1: I don't care, Like Brandy Melville is a great deal, 725 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: so like I'm not going to be watching this, And 726 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: I mean, in my experience, there's so many really lovely 727 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: people who I spoke with who worked at Brandy Melville. 728 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,399 Speaker 1: This is not me trying to say like if you've 729 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,319 Speaker 1: ever shopped there, you're a bad person, or if you 730 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: ever worked there, you're a bad person. There are so 731 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: many people who I spoke with who were whistleblowers in this, 732 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: who work there as teenagers, who I think care a 733 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: lot about these issues and have continued to kind of 734 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: rededicate themselves to these issues. So I don't want to 735 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: be like I'm painting all of these people with the 736 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: same brush. But yeah, the response of people being like 737 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: I refuse to care about this, and you cannot make 738 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: me care about this has been pretty disturbing to me, 739 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: especially when these are allegations of I mean, screenshots of 740 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: incredibly racist, anti Semitic things, allegations of sexual assault. This 741 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 1: isn't something where it's one person said something that could 742 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: be perceived as offensive. 743 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,839 Speaker 4: Not that that should be ignored when that happens, but 744 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 4: this is. 745 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: Like a investigation, Like, you don't have to trust me 746 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 1: and my thoughts on this. All of this is recorded 747 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 1: in court documents, in screen shots, in testimony from many people, 748 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: Like I understand, people don't know me, they don't have 749 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 1: to believe me, but this is a ton of evidence 750 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: that people kind of it feels like they are willfully 751 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: ignoring if they continue to shop there. 752 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 2: What do you like if somebody listening is like who 753 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 2: cares about this? Like, what would you say to them? 754 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: I think that like, think about I would ask them 755 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: to think about what matters to them in terms of 756 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: their values, and to just think about, like does this square? 757 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 4: Because I think that. 758 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: Most people, even people who want to pretty publicly be like, oh, 759 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: political correctness doesn't matter, have people in their life that 760 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: they care about, whether that's young women, whether that's people 761 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 1: who aren't white, like people who are Jewish, and if 762 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: that is how you truly feel and if that are 763 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: your values, then like I would look and see, like, 764 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 1: do I want to spend my money on a place 765 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: that really, very very explicitly does not want to reckon 766 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: with how it has treated people who are not thin 767 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,879 Speaker 1: white women, And even in those situations like those are 768 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 1: often the women who ended up being put in these 769 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: really uncomfortab sexual situations and exploited in other ways. 770 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 4: Watch the documentary. 771 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: You can read my original reporting and Business Insider, And 772 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: if anyone is listening to this who works for Brandy 773 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: Mellville Now wants to talk with me, feel free to 774 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: reach out. I am fascinated what the response has been 775 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 1: like within the company. I haven't talked to any current 776 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: employees since the documentary came out, so I'm curious to 777 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: hear how people are responding. 778 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 3: Now, got a story about an interesting thing in tech, 779 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 3: or just want to say hi, you can reach us 780 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 3: out Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find 781 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 3: transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com. 782 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 2: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by 783 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 2: me Bridget tod. 784 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,320 Speaker 3: It's a production of iHeartRadio, an unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland 785 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 3: as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and 786 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 3: sound engineer. Michael Almada is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 787 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 3: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate 788 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 3: and review. 789 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 2: Us on Apple Podcasts. 790 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, 791 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,840 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.