1 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: The day after Mother Teresa died, her body lay on 2 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: a bed of ice in the mother house in Kolcutta. 3 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: Hundreds of people stood outside in the rain. Some were 4 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:33,919 Speaker 1: crying inside. Sisters knelt or stood around her body. They 5 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: prayed the Rosary aloud, and approached one at a time 6 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: to kiss her feet. The chapel was too small for 7 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: all the visitors who wanted to pay their respects, so 8 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: her body was carried through the streets in an open 9 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: coffin to a church, where she lay in state for 10 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: a week. Her funeral was in a sports arena in Kolcutta. 11 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: Some fifteen thousand people attended, including dignitaries from around the world, 12 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: the presidents of Albania, of Ghana, of Italy, the Queen 13 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: of Spain, the Queen of Belgium, the Queen of Jordan, 14 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, the Prime Minister of India, 15 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: declared it a state funeral, something usually reserved for presidents 16 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: and prime ministers. A leprosy patient carried in the eucharist wine. 17 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa's personal story seems to me like a vague silhouette, 18 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: something so public and at the same time deeply private. 19 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: As I chiseled my way through. It wasn't long before 20 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: I hit something hard. 21 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: Mother Theresa's cult of death and suffering depends for its 22 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 2: effect on the most vulnerable and helpless, abandoned babies, say 23 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 2: or the terminally ill. 24 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: Christopher Higgins was a political critic and author known for 25 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: his blistering commentaries. Some people called them hitch slaps, and 26 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties he made a television documentary about 27 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa, A scathing critique recognized it's called Hell's Angel. 28 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: Mother Teresa regards soself as mandated by Heaven, which is 29 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 2: hot modest. She lends spiritual solace to dictators and to 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: wealthy exploiters, which is scarcely the essence of simplicity, and 31 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: she preaches surrender and prostration to the poor, which a 32 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 2: truly humble person would barely have the nerve to do. 33 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: Throughout the program, Hitchins is weirdly lit, half his faces 34 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: in shadow. A massive caricature of a devious looking Mother 35 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: Teresa lurks in the background, and Hitchins is ruthless. 36 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 2: She takes on the grim and tedious tones of the 37 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 2: zealot and the fanatic. Such a person is manifested in 38 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 2: the shape of a demagogue, an obscurantist, and a servant 39 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: of earthly powers, a presumable virtue who also campaigns against 40 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 2: birth control. 41 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: Hall's Angel came out at a time when Mother Teresa 42 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: was considered too virtuous to be criticized. Calls for her 43 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: sainthood were growing. If you haven't heard some of these 44 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: criticisms before, you might be thinking, what is this guy saying? 45 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 1: I thought everyone loved Mother Teresa. Just Christopher Higgins, I 46 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: critic has. 47 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 3: Mother Teresa because it has to be done. Somebody has 48 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 3: to do it. Somebody had to do it. 49 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: From a cocoa punch and iHeartRadio. This is the Turning 50 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: I America Lance, Part four, The Devil's Advocates. We reached 51 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: out to the missionaries of Charity Sisters and sent them 52 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: a list of questions we had. While a representative did respond, 53 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: they declined to be interviewed. Critics have a lot of 54 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: complaints against Mother Teresa, and once these criticisms under the world, 55 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: they became part of her story. They still are today. 56 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: I can't go into all of them, but we're going 57 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: to look at a handful. Let's start by going back 58 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: to something beautiful for God that's the nineteen sixty nine 59 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: documentary about Mother Teresa by Malcolm Muggridge, the film that 60 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: made her famous. Muggridge was convinced that a scene in 61 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: his film captured a miracle. It happened in the Home 62 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: for the Dying. When the crew tried to film in there, 63 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: the room was so dark that the director worried the 64 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: images wouldn't come out, But it turns out they did. 65 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: The scene was full of light. Immediately muggrets thought it 66 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 1: was divine intervention. He declared it the first photographic miracle. 67 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,559 Speaker 1: But to Christopher Higgins, mother Teresa's critic, this miracle seemed 68 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: too good to be true, and in Hell's Angel he 69 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: included an interview with Muggridge's cameraman, a guy named Ken McMillan, 70 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: who said, it's true they were worried about the low light, 71 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: but they were using a new kind of film, some. 72 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 4: New film made by Kodak, which we hadn't had time 73 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 4: to test before we left. So I said, well, let's 74 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 4: have it go. So we shot him. 75 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: A month or two later, they're in the studio looking 76 00:04:58,040 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: at the footage. 77 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 4: I did think. Up came the shots of the house 78 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 4: of a dye and it was surprising. 79 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 2: You could see every detail. 80 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 4: And I said, that's amazing, that's extraordinary. And I was 81 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 4: going to go on to say, you know, three cheers 82 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 4: for Kodak. I didn't get a chance to say that, though, 83 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 4: because Malcolm, sitting in the front rise spun round said, 84 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 4: it's divine light. 85 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 2: It's Mother Theresa. You'll find that it's divine light. 86 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: Old boy, Malcolm Muggridge couldn't stop talking about this miracle. 87 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 5: He called it a halo, and a star was born. 88 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: Here's Christopher Higgins and Hell's Angel again. 89 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: This profane marriage between tawdry media hype and medieval superstition 90 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 2: gave birth to an icon which few have since had 91 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: the poor taste to question. How does the reputation of 92 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: Holy Mother Theresa look if, just for a moment we 93 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: switch off Malcolm Muggridge's kindly lied. 94 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: Well, without him, there wouldn't be any Mother Tries, obviously, 95 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 3: because he was the one who puts her on that pedestal. 96 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: This is a roop Chattergy a physician in London. He 97 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: collaborated with Higgins on the film Hell's Angel. He also 98 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: published a book jam Packed with his research and condemnations 99 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: of Mother Teresa. For years, he spent his spare time 100 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: researching the lady, as he often calls her. 101 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 3: Might whatever you call it, crusade against the lady. 102 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: Well, maybe to start, I wonder, could you just if 103 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: you had to summarize your overall case or perspective on 104 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa, what would you say? 105 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 3: I considered the whole Mother Teresa bandwagon as a cult. 106 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 3: I would say that practically everything about Mother Teresa is 107 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 3: a result of myth and hyperbole. 108 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: But what fired him up in the first place. A 109 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: roop Chattergy grew up in Kolkatta in the nineteen seventies. 110 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: He was a medical student, and back then he had 111 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: a very different person on Mother Teresa. 112 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 3: When I used to go to medical school, on my 113 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 3: mobed every day in Kakata, I used to pass by 114 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 3: one of her places and I used to see about 115 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 3: forty people being fed, and I would be quite thankful 116 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 3: and happy that somebody was feeding at least forty people 117 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 3: in Kakata. Even in her heyday, not much was known 118 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 3: about her. It was known that she had won the 119 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 3: Nobel Prize and that she was a very good, charitable lady. 120 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 3: So I had absolutely nothing against her. If anything, I 121 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 3: was positive towards her. 122 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: Then he moved to the UK. One day a coworker 123 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: asked him where he was from. 124 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 3: He said Calcutta, and then he said, oh, Kakuta. Do 125 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 3: you know something. There's one person in the whole world 126 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 3: I respect more than anybody else. That's Mother Teresa. And 127 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 3: I I was quite surprised. I said, why this is 128 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 3: nineteen eighty five. Why did she mention Mother Tusa when 129 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 3: I said I was from Gacasa. That incident stuck to 130 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 3: my mind like yesterday. I just I didn't know that 131 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 3: people synonymized Kakata with Mother Teresa. 132 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: After that, he started noticing how his home city was 133 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: viewed by the western world. 134 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 3: I read little things about Kakata in a very gruesome way, 135 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 3: and it's all about poverty and leprosy and squala, nothing 136 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 3: at all about anything else. 137 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: I recently came across a video where Bishop and Los 138 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: Angeles describes Kolcutta like this. Imagine the worst garbage jump 139 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: you've seen, and now think of the whole city that way. 140 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: Reports like this didn't match the Kolkutta Chatterje knew a 141 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: thriving metropolis, a cultural hub. So when he was on 142 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: a trip to Kolkutta. He visited the Home for the Dying, 143 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: the place he'd heard described as an oasis for the poor. 144 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 3: And I was up polled that that place had given 145 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 3: us so much publicity and it was even called a hospice. 146 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 3: It had less than one hundred places, and it didn't 147 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 3: have any beds. Even they had hammocks. There was no yards, 148 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 3: no veranda, and no balcony, no nothing, know what to 149 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 3: stretch your limbs. You were brutally treated in there. 150 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: Chatterjee says he was even more shocked by the medical 151 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: practices he saw. 152 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 3: They routinely used to reuse needles and gloves. Even that 153 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 3: practice has stopped now. 154 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 6: It was a hush place. I think it was a 155 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 6: hush place. 156 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: Collete Livermore was with the Missionaries of Charity for eleven years. 157 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: She's the Australian sister who wasn't allowed to go home 158 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: when her brother was very ill. After she left the MCS, 159 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: she became a physician, but back in nineteen eighty she 160 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: was assigned to the Home for the Dying. Collette fed 161 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: intended to patience There. She cleaned maggots from wounds and 162 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: washed the bodies of people who died. One patient died 163 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: in her arms. 164 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 6: The standard medicine wouldn't have been high. And the thing 165 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 6: I found difficult was there was no painkillers. 166 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 7: She says. 167 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: The sisters were often rough and cold. When people who 168 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: had been on the street arrived at the home, the 169 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: sisters would strip off their clothes right there in the room. 170 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 6: They were all washed in a cement washing place with 171 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,479 Speaker 6: no privacy and just cold water throwing over them. 172 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: Clotte says they often cried out when the cold water 173 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: hit their skin while some visitor with a camera might 174 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: be snapping photos. 175 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 6: Their hair was shaved, and I mean, I know they 176 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 6: had lice and all that sort of stuff, but I 177 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 6: don't know. I found it very harsh. 178 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,599 Speaker 1: She says. Sometimes sister's even got aggressive. 179 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 6: Acting harshly to someone or hitting them or. 180 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: That's when did you see sisters head. 181 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 6: People inklcutta, you know. And I understand that it's very frustrating, 182 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 6: because you know, if you've got desperate people trying to 183 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 6: get things food and such, they'll be pushing. 184 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: Clatt couldn't get over the feeling that things could be 185 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: so much better, and it wasn't the first time she 186 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 1: felt that way. As a teenager, Collet Livermore plans to 187 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: study medicine, but then she watched Something Beautiful for. 188 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:34,479 Speaker 6: God and I saw that movie and I thought, Oh, 189 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 6: I don't need to bother being a doctor anymore because 190 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 6: they don't need complicated medicine. They just need food. 191 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: Clutt joined the EMCs, and it didn't take long for 192 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: her to have misgivings about their medical care, including the 193 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: care for sisters. In nineteen seventy seven, she was assigned 194 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: to a house in Papua New Guinea. She was twenty 195 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: two before she left. She says no one suggested she'd 196 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,239 Speaker 1: take medication to prevent malaria, usually taken two weeks before travel. 197 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: When she arrived, she says she saw grief sons of 198 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: nuns who had died from malaria, so as soon as 199 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 1: she had a chance, she talked to mother Teresa about it. 200 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 6: I asked her, could we take something to prevent malaria? 201 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 6: And she said I I don't take anything. She trusts 202 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 6: in God, but I could take it if I wanted to. 203 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: Colette decided to take it, but it was too late. 204 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 1: One night, she felt incredibly cold. 205 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 6: My teeth were chattering. I had a terrible back pain, 206 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 6: terrible headache. 207 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: She didn't go to work that day, and she wasn't 208 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: getting any better. 209 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 6: I was arching, my back was arching, my tongue was 210 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 6: coming out involuntarily, and I could have died. 211 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: The sisters sent for a doctor. He said it was 212 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: cerebral malaria, which was extremely serious. 213 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 6: I didn't die. You'll be pleased to hear. 214 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 1: Another time, I was working with tuberculosis patients in the Philippines. 215 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: What she saw startled her. 216 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 6: There was a particular mistake where a wrong injection was given, 217 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 6: and I was horrified when I asked the sister, you know, well, 218 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 6: how much did you give? And they didn't even know 219 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 6: what dose they'd given. 220 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: Cross in fiction was a problem since patients were mixed 221 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: together in close quarters collect things. A lot of these 222 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: mistakes stem from this ams belief that the sisters shouldn't 223 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: have too much expertise. Expertise is an opportunity for pride, 224 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: and Mother Teresa believed ignorance was actually an advantage because 225 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: you're a vessel for God's will. 226 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 6: It was a sort of form of magical thinking. If 227 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 6: you obey God's will will be done through you in 228 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 6: some sort of magical way. Mother used to say it 229 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 6: was I'm just a pencil in his hands, like an 230 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 6: inanimate object. That's what they're told. Half the time, we 231 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 6: didn't know where we were going, and we were sent 232 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 6: away suddenly, so there was absolutely no preparation. 233 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: No language or cultural training. The other thing that troubled 234 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: her was how the vow of obedience affected their work. 235 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: You were supposed to obey, cheerfully, promptly and without question. 236 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: But what if you saw injustice or medical mistakes? Do 237 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: you speak up? Then one day and Manila sticks out 238 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: to her. The sisters had what they called at Tahanan, 239 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: a home for people who had tuberculosis and other illnesses. 240 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 6: And so a little boy came with his parents, and 241 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 6: his name was Alex, and he was very. 242 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: Sick, dehydrated and malnourished, with a fever and sepsis. 243 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 6: His skin was floppy and his eyes were sunken. 244 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,119 Speaker 1: They weren't supposed to accept people on Thursdays. But Collette, 245 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: who was sister Tobit back then, spoke with the parents Anymay. 246 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 6: And the professed sister came out in a boiling rage, 247 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 6: saying Tobert, what are you doing here? I said, well, 248 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 6: this little boy is very ill and he's been rejected 249 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 6: by the hospital, and we need to help him. And 250 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 6: she said, so only you know what's right. And I said, look, 251 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 6: I don't really know what's right, but I just know 252 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 6: that this little child is going to die if we 253 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 6: don't do something. And she said, go back to the 254 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 6: Dahanna and I said no, no, I won't wow, And 255 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 6: she said I will help him this time, but you 256 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 6: do what you're told and go back to the Dahanna. 257 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: So callite dead and the child was admitted. They put 258 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: him on a drip with antibiotics and fluids. That night, 259 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: she snuck over to see how he was. 260 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 6: I remember carrying him outside into the knot and just 261 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 6: sort of thing, why why you know, to the blackness. 262 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 6: Next day was much much better. Yeah, he survives. He 263 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 6: became a fat little thing. 264 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: In fact, Collette's intervention wouldn't go unnoticed. About a month later, 265 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: she says, she walked into the dormitory and her bedroll 266 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,359 Speaker 1: was gone. Someone had removed it, no warning, no explanation. 267 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: She'd been demoted from her post as novice mistress. She 268 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: says the conflict she felt inside her pierced through her 269 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: life like a thorn. Mother Teresa wrote a letter in 270 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: nineteen forty. As usual, there was one thing on her mind. 271 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: She said, during the year, very often, I have been 272 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: longing to be all for Jesus and to make other souls, 273 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: especially Indian come and love him fervently. Bringing souls to 274 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: Jesus sounds a lot like conversion to me, and Mother 275 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: Teresa used the word conversion in some of her letters. 276 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: According to Father Brian Kolodechuk, who edited her letters for publication, 277 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: she said, yes, I convert. I convert you to be 278 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: a better Hindu, or a better Muslim, or a better Protestant, 279 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: or a better Catholic, or a better Parsi, or a 280 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: better Sikh or a better Buddhist. And after you have 281 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: found God, it is for you to do what God 282 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 1: wants you to do. 283 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 8: When I first joined, the energy and the spirit of 284 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 8: the society was extremely powerful. It was never about converting people, but. 285 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: That didn't last. Sue Weber says, she's a former MC 286 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,479 Speaker 1: who is a SUPERI in the early nineteen nineties. 287 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 8: The longer I stayed in the order, it started to 288 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 8: be about converting people. It became more about how many 289 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 8: people did you convert. 290 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 3: I heard from many, many people that this was happening 291 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 3: on a large scale that they were converting surpriitiously at 292 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 3: the point of death. 293 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: In his book, Rube Chattergy tells the story of one 294 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: former sister who says sisters were trained to ask a 295 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: dying person if they wanted a ticket to heaven, and 296 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: if they agreed to press a wet cloth to their 297 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: forehead and quietly baptize them, not. 298 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 9: One has died. Result Jesse session ticket was St. Peter. 299 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 9: We call it because tickets and Peter will not let 300 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 9: them go in we call baptism tickets was mister, this. 301 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: Is Mother Teresa. In nineteen ninety two, speaking at a 302 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: clinic in California. 303 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 9: We asked the person, do you runs you wanted blessing 304 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 9: by which your sins will be forgiven and you will 305 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 9: receive God. And they have never refuse. So twenty nine 306 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 9: thousand have died in that one house from the time 307 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 9: we began the work in nineteen fifty two. 308 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 3: And they were collecting the numbers because you get brownie 309 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 3: points if you convert. 310 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 9: Because it's so beautiful to see the people. 311 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 3: Die, so much joy, and it's actually a pretty lowly 312 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 3: thing to do to take advantage of somebody's altered mental 313 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 3: state and to exploit them like that. 314 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: Maybe the most repeated critique of Mother Teresa is that 315 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: you romanticized poverty. Christopher Hutchins put it this way, that 316 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa was not a friend of the poor, She 317 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: was a friend of poverty. Chantony Chacerbarty, a professor of 318 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,479 Speaker 1: history at the University of Kolcutta, says westerners ate her 319 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: story up. 320 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 10: I think the Western fascination with her was because she 321 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 10: was using the Indian sari as a projection of her 322 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 10: glorification of poverty. The sadi clad women on the streets 323 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 10: of Calcutta, working among destitute people living on the streets. 324 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 10: I think that fascinated a lot of Western people, trying 325 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 10: to project India as somewhat, you know, a place like Mars, 326 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 10: almost through chartategy. 327 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: Put it a little more strongly. 328 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 3: The West felt so smug and so glad that this 329 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 3: white woman who's a Catholic, very very rigid Catholic, was 330 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 3: looking after these disgusting, desperate people in a remote corner. 331 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 10: Of the world. 332 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: The Western interest in Mother Teresa's work led to a 333 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: lot of donations. Some report tons of millions of dollars, 334 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: but the exact amount is unclear. The mcs don't reveal 335 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: their financial information, including to us we asked. When one 336 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: Forbes India reporter asked how much they receive in donations, 337 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: he was told, God knows, he is our banker. 338 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 8: We have a lot of money. A lot. 339 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: This is Sue Webber again. When she became a superior 340 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: at the Aid's Hospice in San Francisco, she got a 341 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: checkbook for the first time, but she says she couldn't 342 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: really use it. 343 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 8: I had to go through so many channels to get 344 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 8: like a refrigerator, a small refrigerator to put the men's 345 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 8: medicine in I had. I had access to an account 346 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 8: that had over fifty five million dollars in it, and 347 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 8: I couldn't buy a refrigerator as the superior of the house. 348 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: Collette Livermore, the former sister from Australia, put it this way. 349 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 1: We had plenty of money, but in the name of poverty, 350 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: we didn't want to use it. Instead, they begged. That's 351 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 1: what the sisters called it. Begging. They begged donated supplies, 352 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 1: whether food or medicine or clothes. Mother Teresa believed it 353 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: was a chance for the donor to come closer to christ. 354 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 8: So I was told with another sister to go look 355 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 8: at vehicles. 356 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: So you remembers when she was in the Bronx and 357 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: they needed a new car. 358 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 8: So we get there and we look at different vehicles 359 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 8: and there's a small jeep. So I call the house 360 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 8: and I said to the regional superiors, So we found 361 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 8: the vehicle and this is how much it costs. Can 362 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 8: we go ahead and purchase it? And she goes, no, 363 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 8: you should beg for it, and I was like what, 364 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 8: and I said, I'm not begging for it. I said, 365 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 8: we have the money, and I would have never had 366 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 8: a problem at all to beg for anything if we 367 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 8: didn't have it. 368 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: By begging for it, it's basically. 369 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 8: It's a lie because you're basically presenting that you need 370 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 8: something and you don't have the wherewithal to get it, right, 371 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 8: that's a lie. 372 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: So you refused to beg for it, but she knew 373 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: she had to obey her regional superior. 374 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 8: So I said, this is exactly what I said to 375 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 8: the guy. So I said, hey, I'm just curious, like 376 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 8: would you give us that cheap? Would you just give 377 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 8: it to us? And he was like for free? And 378 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 8: I was like yeah, and he was like, well, don't 379 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 8: you have any money, And I go, oh, no, we 380 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 8: have plenty of money. I'm just curious if you would 381 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 8: just give it to us. And he started laughing and 382 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 8: he goes no, and I was like okay. So I 383 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 8: called back the region and I was like, they won't 384 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 8: give it to us for free, and then we ended 385 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 8: up buying it. 386 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa often spoke of suffering, but critics asked how 387 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: much did you do to alleviate it. There's a particular 388 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: moment in an interview on William F. Buckley's firing Line 389 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: on PBS in nineteen eighty nine, where she tells the 390 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: story of a woman who had cancer. The woman wasn't 391 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: terrible pain, but Mother Teresa told her that the pain 392 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: was a sign that she had come so close to 393 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: Jesus on the cross that he could kiss. 394 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 9: Her, and the lady, though she was in some great pain, 395 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 9: she joined their hands together and said, Mother Teresa, please 396 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 9: tell Jesus to stop kissing me. 397 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: As Mother Teresa tells this story, you can see that 398 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: she's starting to smile. What's weird about this moment to 399 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: me is hearing people laughing in the background. After this 400 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: woman says to Mother Teresa, please tell Jesus to stop 401 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: kissing me. I guess it's supposed to be funny, but 402 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: doesn't it also mean this person just wants the pain 403 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: to stop. The interviewer then says to Mother Teresa, Christ 404 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: entered his own passion willingly. Most humans enter unwillingly into pain. 405 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa replies that he'd be surprised how content the 406 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: poor people in India are that on their suffering faces 407 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: you see a beautiful smile. That her work is to 408 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: help them accept suffering as a gift. Mother Teresa knew 409 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: the power of a good story. She repeated anecdotes until 410 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: they were parables, and she had a way with journalists. 411 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: One expert said it was like she cast a spell 412 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: on them. She may not have enjoyed publicity, but she 413 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: saw the value in it. She was strategic about grinting interviews. 414 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes she made agreements that she'd be allowed to review 415 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: an edit material before it was published. Books about her 416 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: are often full of inaccuracies, more legend than fact, and 417 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: some of the people I talked to told me the 418 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: church was more than happy to benefit from that legend. 419 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 1: It wasn't only Mother Teresa who knew how to use 420 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: the media. Mary Johnson says the church saw its value to. 421 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 5: And I do feel that the church used her. I 422 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 5: remember I traveled with her once to Louisiana, the first 423 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 5: place where the abuses of priests who were pedophiles had 424 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 5: become known. 425 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty five, a Louisiana priest admitted to abusing 426 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: more than thirty children. He was eventually sentenced to twenty 427 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: years in prison. While the trial was underway, the Missionaries 428 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: of Charity opened a new house just an hour away 429 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: in Baton Rouge. 430 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 5: The sisters had been invited there in order to repair 431 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 5: the image of the church. If the people of the 432 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 5: diocese saw Mother Teresa and to sisters, that would be 433 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 5: the example that could kind of make up for these 434 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 5: horrible things that the priests had done. 435 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: It sounds like the Missionaries of Charity and Mother Teresa 436 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: sort of became a pr tool for the church. 437 00:26:54,760 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 5: Exactly, a PR tool, a symbol, And I do think 438 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 5: that's a way of using someone. 439 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: A lot of people wanted to use that symbol. After 440 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: Malcolm Muggridge's filmed Something Beautiful for God, he promoted her 441 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: like crazy. He saw her potential for advancing conservative causes, 442 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: especially with her stance on abortion. He and a number 443 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: of American politicians advocated for her to be given the 444 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: Nobel Peace Prize, and when she was abortion was at 445 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: the center of her acceptance speech. 446 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 7: And I feel one thing I want to share with 447 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 7: you or the greatest destroyer of peace today is the 448 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 7: crive of the innocent unborn child. If a mother and 449 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 7: murder her own child in her own roomb, what is 450 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 7: left for you and for me to kill each other 451 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 7: to meet the nations who have legalized abortion, they are 452 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 7: the poorest nation. 453 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: Christopher Higgins, the man behind the documentary Hells Angel, He 454 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,719 Speaker 1: sees this speech and much of Mother Teresa's work as 455 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: part of a larger, unstated political agenda to advance the 456 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: goals of the church. 457 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 2: If you give women control over their ratory reduction and 458 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 2: come back to that village in ten years time, everything 459 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 2: will be better right away. It's the only thing that 460 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: works well. Mother Treesa spent her entire life say that 461 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 2: that solution was imcommissible. She waged her entire life making 462 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 2: sure that didn't happen. So I wish there was a 463 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: hell to which she could go, because she has a 464 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: lot of death on the conscience, and a lot of 465 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 2: misery and stupidity and ignorance and dirt and filth and 466 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 2: disease as well. 467 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: It just strikes me again and again how polarized these 468 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: camps are. It's like you either love her or you 469 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: hate her. 470 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 5: The image of Mother Teresa that I had encountered out 471 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 5: in the world wasn't anything like the woman I had. 472 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: Known Here's Mary Johnson either. 473 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 5: They were people who made her out to be this 474 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 5: complete holy saint and said all kinds of silly things 475 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 5: like every morning she had only a banana for breakfast 476 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 5: and she you know, just these apocryphal stories that were absurd, 477 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 5: or they were people who were very, very critical, and 478 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 5: not that there weren't things to be critical about, but 479 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 5: who didn't really understand where Mother Troops was coming from 480 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 5: at all, and attributed motives to her that were not 481 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 5: at all her motives. 482 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 11: I just think if we're going to talk shit, we 483 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 11: should talk the right shit, right. 484 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: Kelly Dunham was a sister with the MC's in the 485 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties. She's heard the criticisms I just laid out 486 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: and has plenty of her own. She calls the MC's problematic. 487 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: But on the day Mother Teresa was made a saint, 488 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: Kelly posted a YouTube video critiquing the critiques. 489 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 11: People complain about Mother Teresa is that she urged people 490 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 11: to accept her suffering, to say, you know, to offer 491 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 11: it up, and also said that suffering Jesus kissing that okay. 492 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 11: So on the macro, if somebody is suffering and it's 493 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 11: caused by somebody else's actions, especially a powerful person, and 494 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 11: you tell them and accept it, you're obviously contributing to 495 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 11: a system of oppression and we should fight like hell 496 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 11: against that. But on the micro, and this is always 497 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 11: what people are talking about, helping somebody who's dying to 498 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 11: find meaning in their suffering or their death. Who are 499 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 11: you to say, like that's not like, that's not cool, 500 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 11: that that's not good to offer them like you the 501 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 11: non dying person. 502 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 12: They could not alleviate all the poverty of Kolkatta, and 503 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 12: the focus is on the poorest. 504 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 13: Of the poor, not the poor. 505 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: Father Brian Khaladechich, the head of the MC Fathers, says 506 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: that the quality of medical care and empty houses has 507 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: improved over time, but also that's not the point. 508 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 12: You have to understand. 509 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 13: For example, the home for the dying. 510 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 12: In its context, it was set up not to be 511 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 12: a clinic to give medical care. It was set up 512 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 12: to exactly what it's set home for the dying, the 513 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 12: ones who are dying, so that last moments to have 514 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 12: some relief, some care, some human love. 515 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: At Mother Teresa's funeral, a cardinal put it this way, 516 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: he said, Mother Teresa was aware of this criticism. She 517 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: would shrug as if saying, while you go on discussing 518 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: causes and explanations, I will kneel beside the force of 519 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: the poor and attend to their needs. After Mother Teresa 520 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: died in nineteen ninety seven, her supporters jump started the 521 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: complicated process of advocating for her sainthood, a process that 522 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: typically starts five years after somebody dies. 523 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 13: The Archbishop of Calcutta went to the department the Congregation 524 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 13: for a Saints and asked if he could start already, 525 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 13: And they said, hey, wait a minute, she only died 526 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 13: a month ago. Hold your horses. 527 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: But Father Brian Koladachik says, soon, Pope John Paul the 528 00:31:55,120 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: Second waved the waiting period. Father Brian was the official postulator, 529 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: basically the advocate for her canonization and her fiercest critics 530 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,959 Speaker 1: a Rupe Chatterjee and Christopher Higgins. They both testified they 531 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: gave the official critical perspective for the canonization process, a 532 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: type of role previously known in the Catholic Church as 533 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: the advocatis diaboli or devil's advocate. That's actually where the 534 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: term comes from. As part of the canonization process, the 535 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: Church needed to attribute two miracles to Mother Teresa that 536 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: happened after her death. This is proof that she's interceding 537 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: from heaven. Reports poured in the church research to claims 538 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: had eventually approved two miracles. They declared secured a Bengali 539 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: woman's stomach tumor and saved a Brazilian man in a coma. 540 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: Almost twenty years after Mother Teresa's death, a crowd packed 541 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 1: Saint Peter's Square in Vatican City for her canonization. A 542 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: massive portrait of Mother Teresa overlook the proceedings from them 543 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: in front of Saint Peter's Basilica, and a million tiny 544 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: copies of the painting were passed out at the event. 545 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: During the ceremony, two MC sisters carried in a relic 546 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: a vial of Mother Teresa's blood and Pope Francis, the 547 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: head of the Catholic Church, said the words to proclaim 548 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: her new status, We declare and define Blessed Teresa of 549 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: Calcutta to be a saint. On her tomb in the 550 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: mother House, they engraved the words love one another, as 551 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: I have loved you. Next time on the Turning, all of. 552 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 5: A sudden, Naobia's snacks to me, and she's whispering in 553 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 5: my ear, Sister Donat, I love you. 554 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: The Turning is written by Allen lance Lesser and Me. 555 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: Our producers are Allen lance Lesser and Emily Foreman. Our 556 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: editor is Rob Rosenthal Andrea asoahe is. Our digital fact 557 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. Special links to Dennis Wills 558 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 1: of DG Will's Books, Treig a Llie, Amy Gaines, Sarah Olander, 559 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: Catherine Joyce, Betha Macaluso, Travis Dunlap, and consulting producer Mary Johnson. 560 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 1: Her memoir and Unquenchable Thirst provided inspiration for this series. 561 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Jessica Alpert and John Parati from 562 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: Rococo Punch and Katrina Norvel from iHeartRadio. Our theme music 563 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: is by Matt Reid. For photos and more details on 564 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: the series. Follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch. You 565 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 1: can reach out via email to the Turning at Rococo 566 00:35:34,320 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: punch dot com. I'merica Lance. Thanks for listening.