Speaker 1: Good morning. This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Speaker 1: Today's episode will be a longer one part of the
Speaker 1: series where I interview fascinating people about how they take
Speaker 1: their days from great to awesome and any advice they
Speaker 1: have for the rest of us. So today I am
Speaker 1: excited to welcome Kathy Onetto to the show. Kathy is
Speaker 1: the author of the book Sustainable Ambition, which is out
Speaker 1: this month. So Kathy, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2: Thanks first, thanks so much for having me Laura.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to have you on this So why
Speaker 1: don't you introduce yourself to our listeners.
Speaker 2: Sure, So, I am somebody who has embraced ambition across
Speaker 2: both my professional and personal lives. I've had an over
Speaker 2: twenty five year career at this point, and I'm in
Speaker 2: my second act, and i have what I call a
Speaker 2: portfolio career. I do strategy consulting and transformation work, but
Speaker 2: I'm also the founder of Sustainable Ambition, where I'm a
Speaker 2: life work strategist, coach and facilitator. And in this realm,
Speaker 2: I leverage that strategy background and apply it to life
Speaker 2: and work integration and management, and I explore rethinking success
Speaker 2: and ambition, And I'm really passionate about helping ambitious professionals,
Speaker 2: organizations and teams explore how to live and work differently
Speaker 2: from more success, satisfaction and sustainability.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, what does sustainable ambition mean? I mean, how
Speaker 1: is that different from garden variety ambition?
Speaker 2: That's interesting? Yeah, well, I mean sustainable ambition really means like,
Speaker 2: how do we stay engaged in our lives, in our
Speaker 2: work over time, and how do we pursue what we
Speaker 2: really want and desire in our lives without sacrificing our
Speaker 2: lives in the process or ourselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so Sustainable Ambition, which is your book on
Speaker 1: this topic, is out this month in June. And in
Speaker 1: the book you talk about are being three pillars to
Speaker 1: sustainable ambition? Maybe you could talk through those quickly for us. Sure.
Speaker 2: So, I say that we can find more life, work, sustainability,
Speaker 2: and really approach our goals with more resilience when we
Speaker 2: align the right ambitions at the right time, with the
Speaker 2: right effort and right ambition is really about shifting from
Speaker 2: using external motivators to drive us to shifting toward our
Speaker 2: internal motivators, looking at what really are going to be
Speaker 2: internal drivers of reward for us, right time is about
Speaker 2: shifting from doing it all to doing what matters. It
Speaker 2: asks us to look at life and work together and
Speaker 2: consider our life stage and really prioritize what matters at
Speaker 2: this time. And then right effort is really about shifting
Speaker 2: from constant drive to really strategic effort. It's about how
Speaker 2: do I be discerning about where I'm putting in my effort?
Speaker 2: And then also am I being thoughtful and intentional? How
Speaker 2: I am sustaining myself over time?
Speaker 1: Absolutely well. I wanted to drill in a little bit
Speaker 1: on that right time one because I think the experience
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people have had, and you
Speaker 1: know that I've talked with people about how they spend
Speaker 1: their time over the years, is that, you know, it's
Speaker 1: not that we are ambitious or not ambitious. Often our
Speaker 1: ambition goes up and down at different stages depending on
Speaker 1: what else is going on in their lives. And I've
Speaker 1: heard people going through very very intense times in their
Speaker 1: personal life for whatever reason that happens to be good, bad, whatever,
Speaker 1: that they are in a more coasting mindset for a
Speaker 1: little while. It doesn't mean that they're not going to
Speaker 1: be perfectly ambitious in a year and want to, you know,
Speaker 1: conquer the world a year from now, but right now
Speaker 1: they kind of need to take it down and not
Speaker 1: Is that your experience as well?
Speaker 2: Yes, that's definitely my experience, and I think that that
Speaker 2: is more normal than people realize. And I think what's
Speaker 2: important and what I try to espouse and I think
Speaker 2: you do, is well to have people recognize that that
Speaker 2: ebbing and flowing happens, that we aren't just one note,
Speaker 2: or that you know, we can't dial it up and down,
Speaker 2: because what happens when people experience that shift is it's
Speaker 2: really uncomfortable for them. And when we identify as I'm
Speaker 2: ambitious and all of a sudden, you feel this sense
Speaker 2: of like, oh, I'm dialing down my ambition at this time,
Speaker 2: it makes people think that there's a character flaw there
Speaker 2: or something, when that's not really the case. It just
Speaker 2: may be that you need to put your attention elsewhere,
Speaker 2: or you need a time to kind of dial it
Speaker 2: down so you can figure out what's next.
Speaker 1: And I think it also helps if you are managing
Speaker 1: other people to recognize this as well.
Speaker 2: Right for sure. I mean I think that this is
Speaker 2: one of the fundamental flaws honestly, and now careers are
Speaker 2: managed inside organizations. I fundamentally think this is one of
Speaker 2: the frustrations, you know, that why is it that corporate
Speaker 2: America can't figure out that people have personal lives. There
Speaker 2: are life stages where people need some flexibility in how
Speaker 2: they accommodate the integration of these two sides of what's
Speaker 2: just normal human life.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I always find it interesting because a
Speaker 1: lot of the conversation about work life balance, and particularly
Speaker 1: with women, I mean, people start talking about like taking
Speaker 1: career pauses or taking time out from the workplace. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe we could also just recognize that you could dial
Speaker 1: it up and down at different points too, that it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be all in or nothing.
Speaker 2: Yes, for sure. And I go back to you know,
Speaker 2: Amrie Slaughter wrote about this in her book where she
Speaker 2: talks about this idea of having on and off ramps.
Speaker 2: And I think that that strategy is really wise. And
Speaker 2: yet I also think that when people do potentially take
Speaker 2: an off ramp, you know, to be discerning again and
Speaker 2: intentional when you do that. I like to say, like
Speaker 2: position yourself well, like invest in your potential even when
Speaker 2: you're taking an off ramp, so that when you are
Speaker 2: ready to get back on, you are you know, marketable,
Speaker 2: that you actually feel like you have a sense of
Speaker 2: where you might want to jump back in. And the
Speaker 2: other benefit of that is that oftentimes we take an
Speaker 2: identity hit when we're not working per se, and so
Speaker 2: investing in your potential when you're on in an off ramp, say,
Speaker 2: has that added benefit of building your identity as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then let's talk about right effort, because sometimes
Speaker 1: it's hard for people to figure out what is worth
Speaker 1: putting a lot of effort into and what is not.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I mean I think you know, there's a
Speaker 2: couple of different ways of thinking about this. I have
Speaker 2: three questions in the book around this to kind of
Speaker 2: help people identify like, well, what is your aspiration around
Speaker 2: a goal? You know, how good do you want to be?
Speaker 2: And then to really discern, well what is worth your
Speaker 2: hard work? And also you know, to really think about, well,
Speaker 2: what is your motivation behind a goal as well? Do
Speaker 2: you have the desired effort to put against that? And
Speaker 2: are you really thinking about the required effort So that
Speaker 2: they can have some ways of exploring like what really
Speaker 2: deserves my hard work around our ambitions as opposed to
Speaker 2: treating every goal as if it's equal and everything deserves
Speaker 2: like this high level of effort, which I think a
Speaker 2: lot of ambitious people tend to operate that.
Speaker 1: Way, well, except when they find out it's impossible. I mean,
Speaker 1: you cannot have everything and you know, be approached with
Speaker 1: the same level of intensity. I mean, and you'll just
Speaker 1: it's not that you won't, it's not sustainable, and from
Speaker 1: a burnout perspective, it's that you won't achieve all those things.
Speaker 1: You just there's many places one can go in life,
Speaker 1: and one cannot do all of them correct.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that's right, And I think that you know,
Speaker 2: this is I think what most people really get wrong.
Speaker 2: Sometimes people ask me, well, what a most ambitious people
Speaker 2: kind of get wrong? And I think this angle of
Speaker 2: like not allowing ourselves to dial things down in certain
Speaker 2: areas is an area that we there's just fundamental flaws
Speaker 2: in doing that. You know, we just you know, we
Speaker 2: don't have to do it all. We don't have to
Speaker 2: achieve constantly. You know, we can reward ourselves. We can
Speaker 2: subtract and not focus on everything, and you know, you
Speaker 2: don't have to be driving hard all the time, you
Speaker 2: can take breaks, and fundamentally, all those things are required
Speaker 2: if you're not going to run yourself into the ground
Speaker 2: and be exhausted all the time.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Well, we're going to take a quick ad break
Speaker 1: and I will be back with more from Kathyoetto. Well,
Speaker 1: I am back with Kathy Onnetto, who is the author
Speaker 1: of the new book Sustainable Ambition. We're talking about how
Speaker 1: we can make sure that we are spending the right
Speaker 1: amount of effort on things and doing things at the
Speaker 1: right time as well. Let's talk about managing energy, because
Speaker 1: that's something that comes up in a lot of this
Speaker 1: that energy. I always say time. You know, we cannot
Speaker 1: make more time, but we can change our energy levels
Speaker 1: or at least monitor them through the day and understand
Speaker 1: that there are things we can do to add to
Speaker 1: our energy levels and things that away from our energy levels.
Speaker 1: How does that play into the story of sustainable ambition
Speaker 1: and what would you recommend as we think about.
Speaker 2: Energy, I think managing energy is just as important as
Speaker 2: managing time, and I think people need to be really
Speaker 2: discerning about this. They need to better understand, like, well,
Speaker 2: what is their when are they best in terms of
Speaker 2: time in the day, in terms of managing their energy,
Speaker 2: understanding what's called their chronotype. You know, are common chronotypes.
Speaker 2: You can take quizes to kind of figure that out,
Speaker 2: but understanding like am I a morning person? Am I
Speaker 2: an evening person? And really making sure you're using those
Speaker 2: times when you are most energetic to do the things
Speaker 2: that are most important. But I also think, you know,
Speaker 2: Doris Kern's Goodwin, the presidential biographer, has said, you know,
Speaker 2: the most underappreciated leadership strength is the ability to relax
Speaker 2: and replenish energy. And I tend to agree with this,
Speaker 2: which is, like, again, what most of us get wrong
Speaker 2: is that we just drive, drive, drive, versus remembering that
Speaker 2: we need to actually have plan what I call a
Speaker 2: plan to sustain ourselves. And even small things like taking
Speaker 2: breaks is important. And I think people think it's such
Speaker 2: a small thing and it sounds so simple, But I
Speaker 2: put time here because the reality is a lot of
Speaker 2: us don't take our breaks. Fifty percent of knowledge workers,
Speaker 2: according to Slack, like don't take breaks during the day,
Speaker 2: and most.
Speaker 1: Of us don't take our vacation.
Speaker 2: Those things figuring out a strategy and having a plan
Speaker 2: to how do we actually make sure that we're managing
Speaker 2: our energy in a wise way I think is really
Speaker 2: important for us to think about.
Speaker 1: So I would argue with that slack statistic in the
Speaker 1: sense that people don't take breaks where they consciously get
Speaker 1: up from their work and go do something else. Now,
Speaker 1: I will say the number of knowledge workers who are
Speaker 1: in their inbox and then see a breaking news alert,
Speaker 1: go click over to it, read the article, wind up
Speaker 1: checking their sports scores, their stocks, you know, like looking
Speaker 1: at their WhatsApp thread from the kids' soccer league on
Speaker 1: their phone while they're away from doing all this. Like
Speaker 1: that number is high, and those breaks, but they didn't
Speaker 1: feel like breaks, right.
Speaker 2: I think that's probably right, Laura. I mean again, that's
Speaker 2: where like intentional breaks is really important, and how you're
Speaker 2: using that time is really important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because that doesn't add to your energy levels, whereas
Speaker 1: actually going outside and taking a ten minute walk does exactly. Exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just to be clear on this, but there's things we
Speaker 1: could do sort of holistically to add to our energy
Speaker 1: levels as well. I mean, not just like taking breaks
Speaker 1: during the day, but sort of as a whole person,
Speaker 1: what might help.
Speaker 2: Well, Yeah, I mean I mean what I really advocate
Speaker 2: for people and developing their sustaining plan is to really
Speaker 2: tap into their own knowledge of themselves and how they work.
Speaker 2: I don't think that there's this like miracle plan out there,
Speaker 2: that this is this one size it's all. You really
Speaker 2: have to tune in and think about what works for you.
Speaker 2: So I have people assess, like, well, what does restore
Speaker 2: protect and support your energy? Do an audit of that
Speaker 2: and see what really works for you, and then evaluate
Speaker 2: what might be working, what might not be working, and
Speaker 2: make some shifts. I also talk about, you know, not
Speaker 2: just making this personal, but really you have to prototype
Speaker 2: and practice this. Oftentimes again people say well what should
Speaker 2: I do, and it's like, well, what do you want
Speaker 2: to try?
Speaker 1: What works for you?
Speaker 2: And then go and test it out, test it out
Speaker 2: for a certain period of time, see how it's working
Speaker 2: for you. Is that supporting your energy levels and helping
Speaker 2: to make sure that you feel sustained? And then it
Speaker 2: is a practice. I think that what people often get
Speaker 2: wrong too is that they just think it's going to
Speaker 2: again be this miracle cure. But you have to make
Speaker 2: it a practice, and you also have to come back
Speaker 2: to it and reassess it because things change over time
Speaker 2: as well, like what worked for you last season may
Speaker 2: not work for you now, so you may need to
Speaker 2: adjust as well over time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people like I took a break once and it
Speaker 1: didn't do anything for me. Right. Well. Another thing I
Speaker 1: often talk about with people is putting big things into
Speaker 1: your personal life that are energy boosting. That if we
Speaker 1: have some passion price that's outside of work, that can
Speaker 1: often I mean, even though it takes time, it can
Speaker 1: make us feel more excited about the rest of life,
Speaker 1: which can then you know, boost energy for everything you have.
Speaker 1: You found that to be.
Speaker 2: The case, Yes, yes, I often actually quote you, Laura
Speaker 2: that in my work too, because you know, I do
Speaker 2: think this is important. And one of the things that
Speaker 2: I talk about in the book and around this work
Speaker 2: is I say, you know, claim a life ambition. And
Speaker 2: I mean it sounds silly, like most of us have
Speaker 2: life ambitions. But yet when I tell people, hey, you
Speaker 2: can have life ambitions. Ambition is not just for work,
Speaker 2: a lot of people are kind of shocked. And you know,
Speaker 2: I can have a life ambition. Yes, you can have
Speaker 2: a life ambition, and again most of us do.
Speaker 1: But when we.
Speaker 2: Invest in those things, when we actually make them as
Speaker 2: urgent and as important as some of the other things
Speaker 2: that we think should like claim to our time and
Speaker 2: our energy. You know, it ends up fueling us in
Speaker 2: a way that can fuel all the other things that
Speaker 2: we're wanting to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now we mentioned that, you know, we can't
Speaker 1: just rely on one hit things. But if somebody wanted
Speaker 1: to do something today to make life feel more sustainable,
Speaker 1: what would you recommend they try.
Speaker 2: Well, one thing that I that I offer in the
Speaker 2: book is this idea of where time versus wish time.
Speaker 2: And you know, some of the what results in our
Speaker 2: feelings of time pressure can be you know, this tension
Speaker 2: between a mindset of where we are spending our time
Speaker 2: versus where we wish we were spending our time. And
Speaker 2: so I would have people do a very simple exercise,
Speaker 2: which is go look back at your calendar for last week,
Speaker 2: evaluate where did you spend your time? Then pause and
Speaker 2: reflect and say where do you wish you were spending
Speaker 2: your time? And this week, make one small shift toward
Speaker 2: where you wish you were spending your time. Start to
Speaker 2: do some of the things that you really want to
Speaker 2: be doing to help support you and help you operate
Speaker 2: at your best.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, well, we're going to take one more quick ad
Speaker 1: break and then I'll be back with more from Kathy.
Speaker 1: So I am talking with Kathy on Nato, who's the
Speaker 1: author of the brand new book Sustainable Ambition. So let's
Speaker 1: talk about your schedule, Kathy. Do you have any routines
Speaker 1: that help make you more productive?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I probably have too many, Laura, but I will
Speaker 2: say there's some that might seem contradictory. So I'm very
Speaker 2: much a planner. I like to prepare ahead of time,
Speaker 2: both my week as well as my days, and there's
Speaker 2: pros and cons to that. I will say, like, for me,
Speaker 2: it works, but it can also mean for others around me.
Speaker 2: I can sometimes seem a little inflexible in terms of like,
Speaker 2: at least one day, Like if I've kind of planned
Speaker 2: my day, that's kind of what I'm hoping to you
Speaker 2: have it offering as And yet I will say, in
Speaker 2: contrast to that, I'm also a huge believer in following
Speaker 2: my energy, and so I also really do have a plan.
Speaker 2: But if I wake up and I'm kind of like,
Speaker 2: that's not in me to work on that right now,
Speaker 2: It's like if I try to work on that, I'm
Speaker 2: just going to you know, flounder, like then I'm going
Speaker 2: to adjust what I'm working on, so I also try
Speaker 2: to be flexible within that.
Speaker 1: Do you have any particular like morning routines. I know
Speaker 1: people who listen to the show are big into that.
Speaker 2: You know, my biggest one is probably just getting up
Speaker 2: and having coffee, right, But also like within that time,
Speaker 2: it's my quiet time, you know, I really I tend
Speaker 2: to be a night our Honestly, I like to work
Speaker 2: in the mornings and I like to work in the evenings.
Speaker 2: And so when I wake up first, first thing in
Speaker 2: the morning, before I get into that work period, I
Speaker 2: do like to have quiet time and space just for
Speaker 2: myself before I jump into my work. Those are really
Speaker 2: kind of my morning routines.
Speaker 1: Well, what does your schedule look like then during the day?
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm trying to figure out how how one
Speaker 1: makes this work. If you like to work in the
Speaker 1: morning and work in the evening, what does a daily
Speaker 1: schedule tend to look like?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well, because I am self employed and
Speaker 2: because I have a flexible schedule, it can very day
Speaker 2: to day, but generally, you know, I am getting up early,
Speaker 2: having that space, I jump into work fairly early. Also
Speaker 2: because I tend to work with people on the East
Speaker 2: coast and I'm on the West coast, so sometimes I
Speaker 2: have to jump into things pretty early, and then I
Speaker 2: tend to be pretty flexible with my afternoon time. I
Speaker 2: might get a workout in in the middle of the day,
Speaker 2: or I'm getting it in in the late afternoon, and
Speaker 2: then I might then come back to work or often
Speaker 2: do come back to work in the evening.
Speaker 1: And when you said you do a lot of planning,
Speaker 1: what does your planning routine tend to look like?
Speaker 2: I would say I'm just very clear on both two things,
Speaker 2: one like what I am trying to accomplish the next day,
Speaker 2: like what do I have on my schedule? But I
Speaker 2: will say that planning again, like I said, I like
Speaker 2: to plan across like both different time periods, so days, weeks.
Speaker 2: I know you're an advocate of a week, but I
Speaker 2: also tend to look at longer horizons as well, because
Speaker 2: I think planning for sustainability across a lot longer horizon
Speaker 2: is more manageable, so that you can see, like, hey,
Speaker 2: I might have an intense week or an intense month,
Speaker 2: but I know I can build in times and other
Speaker 2: places for downtime so that I can make it sustainable
Speaker 2: over a longer time horizon. So I'm planning on different
Speaker 2: time horizons like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I always love the idea of zooming out. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess one of my sort of time management tips
Speaker 1: for people, life management tips or sustainability tips if you will,
Speaker 1: is if if any given period looks crunched, tries zooming
Speaker 1: your focus out longer, because usually at least by the
Speaker 1: time you're looking at like a year, it's not going
Speaker 1: to be intense every single moment of the entire year. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this week won't be bad, but you
Speaker 1: know that can be particularly helpful. People are in cyclical
Speaker 1: sorts of jobs. I mean, somebody who's like an accountant. Well,
Speaker 1: you know March is gonna be terrible, but that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean August will be and so you can, you know,
Speaker 1: look out for a bigger time horizon.
Speaker 2: I agree with that, yes, wholeheartedly.
Speaker 1: So let's story. I always ask people question, what is
Speaker 1: something you have done recently to take a day from
Speaker 1: great to awesome?
Speaker 2: You know, I think what I would say to this is,
Speaker 2: and I did this just this weekend, which is to
Speaker 2: actually pause and really take in a great day and
Speaker 2: to acknowledge it. So that to me is a way
Speaker 2: to take things from great to awesome. You know, I
Speaker 2: really love the practice by doctor Rick Hanson. It's called heel,
Speaker 2: which is in shorthand. It's just have an experience and
Speaker 2: take it in and by doing that repeatedly over time,
Speaker 2: it builds our resilience. And so that's a practice that
Speaker 2: I really love to employ. So like this weekend, my
Speaker 2: husband and I went out to dinner one night and
Speaker 2: we both just paused at the end and said, wow,
Speaker 2: that was such a great night and really took it
Speaker 2: in and acknowledged it. And having done that, it also
Speaker 2: stays with me much much longer and helps me. Really
Speaker 2: it really does take it from great to awesome. It
Speaker 2: really does help me underst like, whoa, that was really
Speaker 2: an amazing night, And it doesn't have to be this
Speaker 2: huge thing. That can be really small.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love the idea of savoring. Just you know,
Speaker 1: you not only have a good experience, but you pause
Speaker 1: and notice that you are having a good experience. It
Speaker 1: adds this extra layer of acknowledgment to the enjoyment and
Speaker 1: just takes it a little little deeper. Exactly exactly and
Speaker 1: what are you looking forward to right now.
Speaker 2: I will say with the book coming out, one is
Speaker 2: just continuing to have conversations about this. It's really the
Speaker 2: thing that brings me the most joy is being in
Speaker 2: conversation with people around how do we really rethink success
Speaker 2: and ambition, how do we make it sustainable for ourselves?
Speaker 2: How do we rethink how we're shaping our lives and
Speaker 2: work in that regard. But I will also admit I
Speaker 2: am taking a step back and looking at things with
Speaker 2: a longer horizon. As you well know, a book launch
Speaker 2: is intense, and so I'm really looking forward to some
Speaker 2: downtime that I see off on the horizon. And the
Speaker 2: final thing is just that you know, around ambition, I
Speaker 2: really believe that, you know, some things can be brewing
Speaker 2: and new things can come up. That's part of the
Speaker 2: ebbing and flowing as well. We're not again just going
Speaker 2: to keep going on one path, and so I already
Speaker 2: sense new ambitions brewing, and in this time I'm having
Speaker 2: to put them off on the horizon as well and
Speaker 2: put them on the back burner until I have capacity
Speaker 2: to kind of take them on. But I will say
Speaker 2: I am looking forward to kind of digging into exploring further, like, well,
Speaker 2: what new ambition is actually on the horizon?
Speaker 1: Absolutely well, as long as we can keep track of
Speaker 1: them and we can come back to them in the future,
Speaker 1: right for sure?
Speaker 2: For sure?
Speaker 1: Absolutely so, Kathy, where can people find you?
Speaker 2: People can find me at Sustainable Ambition dot com and
Speaker 2: they can also find me on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, Well, Kathy, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you
Speaker 1: have feedback about this or any other episode, you can
Speaker 1: always reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening,
Speaker 1: and here's to making the most of our time. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas,
Speaker 1: or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at Laura
Speaker 1: vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia.
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