WEBVTT - Make life more sustainable, with Kathy Oneto 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:14.000 Good morning. This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.560 Today's episode will be a longer one part of the 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:21.120 series where I interview fascinating people about how they take 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:23.880 their days from great to awesome and any advice they 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:26.520 have for the rest of us. So today I am 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.320 excited to welcome Kathy Onetto to the show. Kathy is 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.239 the author of the book Sustainable Ambition, which is out 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:35.720 this month. So Kathy, thank you for joining us. 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.200 Thanks first, thanks so much for having me Laura. 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:40.040 Yeah, I'm excited to have you on this So why 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:41.879 don't you introduce yourself to our listeners. 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:47.080 Sure, So, I am somebody who has embraced ambition across 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:51.440 both my professional and personal lives. I've had an over 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.120 twenty five year career at this point, and I'm in 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:56.440 my second act, and i have what I call a 0:00:56.480 --> 0:01:00.400 portfolio career. I do strategy consulting and transformation work, but 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.240 I'm also the founder of Sustainable Ambition, where I'm a 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.880 life work strategist, coach and facilitator. And in this realm, 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:11.000 I leverage that strategy background and apply it to life 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:15.600 and work integration and management, and I explore rethinking success 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:20.400 and ambition, And I'm really passionate about helping ambitious professionals, 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:23.960 organizations and teams explore how to live and work differently 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:27.400 from more success, satisfaction and sustainability. 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:30.480 Yeah. Well, what does sustainable ambition mean? I mean, how 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.120 is that different from garden variety ambition? 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:38.360 That's interesting? Yeah, well, I mean sustainable ambition really means like, 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:42.240 how do we stay engaged in our lives, in our 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:46.200 work over time, and how do we pursue what we 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.920 really want and desire in our lives without sacrificing our 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:51.440 lives in the process or ourselves. 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.240 Yeah. And so Sustainable Ambition, which is your book on 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.680 this topic, is out this month in June. And in 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:02.040 the book you talk about are being three pillars to 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:06.120 sustainable ambition? Maybe you could talk through those quickly for us. Sure. 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:09.679 So, I say that we can find more life, work, sustainability, 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:13.200 and really approach our goals with more resilience when we 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:16.040 align the right ambitions at the right time, with the 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:20.480 right effort and right ambition is really about shifting from 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:25.280 using external motivators to drive us to shifting toward our 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.880 internal motivators, looking at what really are going to be 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:34.240 internal drivers of reward for us, right time is about 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.560 shifting from doing it all to doing what matters. It 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.640 asks us to look at life and work together and 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:44.839 consider our life stage and really prioritize what matters at 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:48.760 this time. And then right effort is really about shifting 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:52.960 from constant drive to really strategic effort. It's about how 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:56.600 do I be discerning about where I'm putting in my effort? 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:00.520 And then also am I being thoughtful and intentional? How 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:02.600 I am sustaining myself over time? 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:05.919 Absolutely well. I wanted to drill in a little bit 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.400 on that right time one because I think the experience 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.960 I know a lot of people have had, and you 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:13.639 know that I've talked with people about how they spend 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.480 their time over the years, is that, you know, it's 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:20.200 not that we are ambitious or not ambitious. Often our 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:23.840 ambition goes up and down at different stages depending on 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:25.640 what else is going on in their lives. And I've 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:28.760 heard people going through very very intense times in their 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:32.120 personal life for whatever reason that happens to be good, bad, whatever, 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:37.920 that they are in a more coasting mindset for a 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:39.720 little while. It doesn't mean that they're not going to 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:43.360 be perfectly ambitious in a year and want to, you know, 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:45.480 conquer the world a year from now, but right now 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:46.840 they kind of need to take it down and not 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:48.640 Is that your experience as well? 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.800 Yes, that's definitely my experience, and I think that that 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.760 is more normal than people realize. And I think what's 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.440 important and what I try to espouse and I think 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:02.280 you do, is well to have people recognize that that 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.200 ebbing and flowing happens, that we aren't just one note, 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.120 or that you know, we can't dial it up and down, 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:12.160 because what happens when people experience that shift is it's 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.640 really uncomfortable for them. And when we identify as I'm 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:18.280 ambitious and all of a sudden, you feel this sense 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.240 of like, oh, I'm dialing down my ambition at this time, 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:24.080 it makes people think that there's a character flaw there 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.560 or something, when that's not really the case. It just 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.200 may be that you need to put your attention elsewhere, 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:31.960 or you need a time to kind of dial it 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:33.920 down so you can figure out what's next. 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:36.719 And I think it also helps if you are managing 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.119 other people to recognize this as well. 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.520 Right for sure. I mean I think that this is 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:45.600 one of the fundamental flaws honestly, and now careers are 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:50.000 managed inside organizations. I fundamentally think this is one of 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.920 the frustrations, you know, that why is it that corporate 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:57.760 America can't figure out that people have personal lives. There 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:01.839 are life stages where people need some flexibility in how 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:05.359 they accommodate the integration of these two sides of what's 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:07.080 just normal human life. 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:09.680 Yeah. Well, and I always find it interesting because a 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.359 lot of the conversation about work life balance, and particularly 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:14.359 with women, I mean, people start talking about like taking 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.240 career pauses or taking time out from the workplace. It's like, well, 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:19.360 maybe we could also just recognize that you could dial 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:21.359 it up and down at different points too, that it 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.039 doesn't have to be all in or nothing. 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:26.599 Yes, for sure. And I go back to you know, 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.080 Amrie Slaughter wrote about this in her book where she 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:33.080 talks about this idea of having on and off ramps. 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:36.080 And I think that that strategy is really wise. And 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.880 yet I also think that when people do potentially take 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:41.640 an off ramp, you know, to be discerning again and 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:44.200 intentional when you do that. I like to say, like 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:48.240 position yourself well, like invest in your potential even when 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.400 you're taking an off ramp, so that when you are 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:55.160 ready to get back on, you are you know, marketable, 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.400 that you actually feel like you have a sense of 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.599 where you might want to jump back in. And the 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.800 other benefit of that is that oftentimes we take an 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.320 identity hit when we're not working per se, and so 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:10.599 investing in your potential when you're on in an off ramp, say, 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.520 has that added benefit of building your identity as well. 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:18.000 Yeah, and then let's talk about right effort, because sometimes 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.200 it's hard for people to figure out what is worth 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:22.640 putting a lot of effort into and what is not. 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.240 Yes, yeah, I mean I think you know, there's a 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.719 couple of different ways of thinking about this. I have 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.400 three questions in the book around this to kind of 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:37.240 help people identify like, well, what is your aspiration around 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:39.880 a goal? You know, how good do you want to be? 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.680 And then to really discern, well what is worth your 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:48.200 hard work? And also you know, to really think about, well, 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.640 what is your motivation behind a goal as well? Do 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.320 you have the desired effort to put against that? And 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:57.160 are you really thinking about the required effort So that 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:00.800 they can have some ways of exploring like what really 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:05.840 deserves my hard work around our ambitions as opposed to 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.960 treating every goal as if it's equal and everything deserves 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:11.520 like this high level of effort, which I think a 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.040 lot of ambitious people tend to operate that. 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.840 Way, well, except when they find out it's impossible. I mean, 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:22.360 you cannot have everything and you know, be approached with 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.400 the same level of intensity. I mean, and you'll just 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:29.480 it's not that you won't, it's not sustainable, and from 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:31.760 a burnout perspective, it's that you won't achieve all those things. 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.840 You just there's many places one can go in life, 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:37.280 and one cannot do all of them correct. 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:39.680 Yes, I think that's right, And I think that you know, 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.040 this is I think what most people really get wrong. 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:44.600 Sometimes people ask me, well, what a most ambitious people 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:47.040 kind of get wrong? And I think this angle of 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:50.640 like not allowing ourselves to dial things down in certain 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:56.040 areas is an area that we there's just fundamental flaws 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.320 in doing that. You know, we just you know, we 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.240 don't have to do it all. We don't have to 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:07.160 achieve constantly. You know, we can reward ourselves. We can 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:11.240 subtract and not focus on everything, and you know, you 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.080 don't have to be driving hard all the time, you 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:16.720 can take breaks, and fundamentally, all those things are required 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.040 if you're not going to run yourself into the ground 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:21.720 and be exhausted all the time. 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:24.640 Absolutely, Well, we're going to take a quick ad break 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:34.040 and I will be back with more from Kathyoetto. Well, 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.400 I am back with Kathy Onnetto, who is the author 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:40.360 of the new book Sustainable Ambition. We're talking about how 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:42.800 we can make sure that we are spending the right 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:44.920 amount of effort on things and doing things at the 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.680 right time as well. Let's talk about managing energy, because 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:49.599 that's something that comes up in a lot of this 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:52.360 that energy. I always say time. You know, we cannot 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.199 make more time, but we can change our energy levels 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.440 or at least monitor them through the day and understand 0:08:57.480 --> 0:08:58.760 that there are things we can do to add to 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:01.400 our energy levels and things that away from our energy levels. 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.440 How does that play into the story of sustainable ambition 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:06.360 and what would you recommend as we think about. 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:10.080 Energy, I think managing energy is just as important as 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.000 managing time, and I think people need to be really 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.560 discerning about this. They need to better understand, like, well, 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.760 what is their when are they best in terms of 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.040 time in the day, in terms of managing their energy, 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:27.160 understanding what's called their chronotype. You know, are common chronotypes. 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:29.680 You can take quizes to kind of figure that out, 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.280 but understanding like am I a morning person? Am I 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.240 an evening person? And really making sure you're using those 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:39.280 times when you are most energetic to do the things 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.040 that are most important. But I also think, you know, 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.560 Doris Kern's Goodwin, the presidential biographer, has said, you know, 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:49.880 the most underappreciated leadership strength is the ability to relax 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:52.720 and replenish energy. And I tend to agree with this, 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:54.880 which is, like, again, what most of us get wrong 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:58.720 is that we just drive, drive, drive, versus remembering that 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:01.080 we need to actually have plan what I call a 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:05.400 plan to sustain ourselves. And even small things like taking 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.360 breaks is important. And I think people think it's such 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.240 a small thing and it sounds so simple, But I 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.199 put time here because the reality is a lot of 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.559 us don't take our breaks. Fifty percent of knowledge workers, 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.400 according to Slack, like don't take breaks during the day, 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:20.319 and most. 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:21.400 Of us don't take our vacation. 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.760 Those things figuring out a strategy and having a plan 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.400 to how do we actually make sure that we're managing 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:29.920 our energy in a wise way I think is really 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.000 important for us to think about. 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:34.880 So I would argue with that slack statistic in the 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.360 sense that people don't take breaks where they consciously get 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.000 up from their work and go do something else. Now, 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.560 I will say the number of knowledge workers who are 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:44.880 in their inbox and then see a breaking news alert, 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:47.840 go click over to it, read the article, wind up 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.200 checking their sports scores, their stocks, you know, like looking 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.559 at their WhatsApp thread from the kids' soccer league on 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:55.800 their phone while they're away from doing all this. Like 0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:01.200 that number is high, and those breaks, but they didn't 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:02.240 feel like breaks, right. 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:04.959 I think that's probably right, Laura. I mean again, that's 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:08.280 where like intentional breaks is really important, and how you're 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.320 using that time is really important. 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.400 Yeah, because that doesn't add to your energy levels, whereas 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:20.400 actually going outside and taking a ten minute walk does exactly. Exactly. Yeah, 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:22.560 just to be clear on this, but there's things we 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:24.680 could do sort of holistically to add to our energy 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:26.560 levels as well. I mean, not just like taking breaks 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.200 during the day, but sort of as a whole person, 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:30.800 what might help. 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.680 Well, Yeah, I mean I mean what I really advocate 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.959 for people and developing their sustaining plan is to really 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.640 tap into their own knowledge of themselves and how they work. 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.800 I don't think that there's this like miracle plan out there, 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.240 that this is this one size it's all. You really 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.040 have to tune in and think about what works for you. 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.360 So I have people assess, like, well, what does restore 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:54.959 protect and support your energy? Do an audit of that 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:59.080 and see what really works for you, and then evaluate 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:01.840 what might be working, what might not be working, and 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.600 make some shifts. I also talk about, you know, not 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.160 just making this personal, but really you have to prototype 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.079 and practice this. Oftentimes again people say well what should 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:11.520 I do, and it's like, well, what do you want 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:11.920 to try? 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:12.959 What works for you? 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.400 And then go and test it out, test it out 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:17.640 for a certain period of time, see how it's working 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.880 for you. Is that supporting your energy levels and helping 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:24.720 to make sure that you feel sustained? And then it 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:27.600 is a practice. I think that what people often get 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:29.360 wrong too is that they just think it's going to 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.120 again be this miracle cure. But you have to make 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.120 it a practice, and you also have to come back 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.880 to it and reassess it because things change over time 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.280 as well, like what worked for you last season may 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.520 not work for you now, so you may need to 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:43.240 adjust as well over time. 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:45.320 Yeah, people like I took a break once and it 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:48.839 didn't do anything for me. Right. Well. Another thing I 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:53.080 often talk about with people is putting big things into 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:58.800 your personal life that are energy boosting. That if we 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.800 have some passion price that's outside of work, that can 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:07.000 often I mean, even though it takes time, it can 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.560 make us feel more excited about the rest of life, 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:14.000 which can then you know, boost energy for everything you have. 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:14.920 You found that to be. 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:18.839 The case, Yes, yes, I often actually quote you, Laura 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.520 that in my work too, because you know, I do 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:24.640 think this is important. And one of the things that 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:26.760 I talk about in the book and around this work 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.640 is I say, you know, claim a life ambition. And 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.520 I mean it sounds silly, like most of us have 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.560 life ambitions. But yet when I tell people, hey, you 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.320 can have life ambitions. Ambition is not just for work, 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:40.760 a lot of people are kind of shocked. And you know, 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:43.320 I can have a life ambition. Yes, you can have 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.040 a life ambition, and again most of us do. 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:46.920 But when we. 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.079 Invest in those things, when we actually make them as 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.360 urgent and as important as some of the other things 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:56.200 that we think should like claim to our time and 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.520 our energy. You know, it ends up fueling us in 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.080 a way that can fuel all the other things that 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:02.920 we're wanting to do. 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.360 Yeah, and now we mentioned that, you know, we can't 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:08.200 just rely on one hit things. But if somebody wanted 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.040 to do something today to make life feel more sustainable, 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:12.280 what would you recommend they try. 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:15.120 Well, one thing that I that I offer in the 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.800 book is this idea of where time versus wish time. 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.240 And you know, some of the what results in our 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:24.520 feelings of time pressure can be you know, this tension 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:28.040 between a mindset of where we are spending our time 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:30.840 versus where we wish we were spending our time. And 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.360 so I would have people do a very simple exercise, 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.880 which is go look back at your calendar for last week, 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:40.200 evaluate where did you spend your time? Then pause and 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:42.480 reflect and say where do you wish you were spending 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:46.640 your time? And this week, make one small shift toward 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.760 where you wish you were spending your time. Start to 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:52.160 do some of the things that you really want to 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.520 be doing to help support you and help you operate 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:56.160 at your best. 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:58.960 Absolutely, well, we're going to take one more quick ad 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:07.840 break and then I'll be back with more from Kathy. 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:10.240 So I am talking with Kathy on Nato, who's the 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:14.400 author of the brand new book Sustainable Ambition. So let's 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.120 talk about your schedule, Kathy. Do you have any routines 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:18.400 that help make you more productive? 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.760 Yeah? I probably have too many, Laura, but I will 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:27.320 say there's some that might seem contradictory. So I'm very 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.760 much a planner. I like to prepare ahead of time, 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:33.960 both my week as well as my days, and there's 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:35.920 pros and cons to that. I will say, like, for me, 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.400 it works, but it can also mean for others around me. 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.400 I can sometimes seem a little inflexible in terms of like, 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.280 at least one day, Like if I've kind of planned 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:47.800 my day, that's kind of what I'm hoping to you 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.400 have it offering as And yet I will say, in 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:55.520 contrast to that, I'm also a huge believer in following 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:59.920 my energy, and so I also really do have a plan. 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:01.840 But if I wake up and I'm kind of like, 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.120 that's not in me to work on that right now, 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:06.240 It's like if I try to work on that, I'm 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:09.520 just going to you know, flounder, like then I'm going 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.800 to adjust what I'm working on, so I also try 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:13.640 to be flexible within that. 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:17.120 Do you have any particular like morning routines. I know 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.400 people who listen to the show are big into that. 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:22.760 You know, my biggest one is probably just getting up 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:27.160 and having coffee, right, But also like within that time, 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.080 it's my quiet time, you know, I really I tend 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.560 to be a night our Honestly, I like to work 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:34.840 in the mornings and I like to work in the evenings. 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:37.080 And so when I wake up first, first thing in 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.960 the morning, before I get into that work period, I 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.800 do like to have quiet time and space just for 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:45.720 myself before I jump into my work. Those are really 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.160 kind of my morning routines. 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:49.440 Well, what does your schedule look like then during the day? 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:51.200 I mean, I'm trying to figure out how how one 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:52.480 makes this work. If you like to work in the 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:54.560 morning and work in the evening, what does a daily 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:55.600 schedule tend to look like? 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.120 Yeah, I mean, well, because I am self employed and 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:02.280 because I have a flexible schedule, it can very day 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.280 to day, but generally, you know, I am getting up early, 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.800 having that space, I jump into work fairly early. Also 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.000 because I tend to work with people on the East 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:12.879 coast and I'm on the West coast, so sometimes I 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.080 have to jump into things pretty early, and then I 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:18.159 tend to be pretty flexible with my afternoon time. I 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.080 might get a workout in in the middle of the day, 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:24.639 or I'm getting it in in the late afternoon, and 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.000 then I might then come back to work or often 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:28.680 do come back to work in the evening. 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:31.640 And when you said you do a lot of planning, 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.320 what does your planning routine tend to look like? 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:39.159 I would say I'm just very clear on both two things, 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.280 one like what I am trying to accomplish the next day, 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:44.560 like what do I have on my schedule? But I 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.480 will say that planning again, like I said, I like 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:52.119 to plan across like both different time periods, so days, weeks. 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:53.760 I know you're an advocate of a week, but I 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.280 also tend to look at longer horizons as well, because 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.800 I think planning for sustainability across a lot longer horizon 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:03.919 is more manageable, so that you can see, like, hey, 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:06.920 I might have an intense week or an intense month, 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:09.160 but I know I can build in times and other 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.440 places for downtime so that I can make it sustainable 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.160 over a longer time horizon. So I'm planning on different 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:17.840 time horizons like that. 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:20.920 Yeah, I always love the idea of zooming out. I mean, 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.639 I guess one of my sort of time management tips 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:26.760 for people, life management tips or sustainability tips if you will, 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:30.119 is if if any given period looks crunched, tries zooming 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.480 your focus out longer, because usually at least by the 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:35.679 time you're looking at like a year, it's not going 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.600 to be intense every single moment of the entire year. Now, 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.760 I'm not saying this week won't be bad, but you 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.000 know that can be particularly helpful. People are in cyclical 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:47.360 sorts of jobs. I mean, somebody who's like an accountant. Well, 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.520 you know March is gonna be terrible, but that doesn't 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.080 mean August will be and so you can, you know, 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:54.800 look out for a bigger time horizon. 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:57.520 I agree with that, yes, wholeheartedly. 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:00.760 So let's story. I always ask people question, what is 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.840 something you have done recently to take a day from 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:05.000 great to awesome? 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.800 You know, I think what I would say to this is, 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.840 and I did this just this weekend, which is to 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:17.080 actually pause and really take in a great day and 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.840 to acknowledge it. So that to me is a way 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.399 to take things from great to awesome. You know, I 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:27.000 really love the practice by doctor Rick Hanson. It's called heel, 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:31.000 which is in shorthand. It's just have an experience and 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.240 take it in and by doing that repeatedly over time, 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.760 it builds our resilience. And so that's a practice that 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.080 I really love to employ. So like this weekend, my 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:42.480 husband and I went out to dinner one night and 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:45.880 we both just paused at the end and said, wow, 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:49.239 that was such a great night and really took it 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.200 in and acknowledged it. And having done that, it also 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:56.320 stays with me much much longer and helps me. Really 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:58.720 it really does take it from great to awesome. It 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:01.600 really does help me underst like, whoa, that was really 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:03.760 an amazing night, And it doesn't have to be this 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:06.919 huge thing. That can be really small. 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:10.800 Yeah. I love the idea of savoring. Just you know, 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:14.320 you not only have a good experience, but you pause 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:16.760 and notice that you are having a good experience. It 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:20.000 adds this extra layer of acknowledgment to the enjoyment and 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:24.800