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Speaker 1: Good morning. This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode will be a longer one part of the

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Speaker 1: series where I interview fascinating people about how they take

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Speaker 1: their days from great to awesome and any advice they

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Speaker 1: have for the rest of us. So today I am

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Speaker 1: excited to welcome Kathy Onetto to the show. Kathy is

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Speaker 1: the author of the book Sustainable Ambition, which is out

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Speaker 1: this month. So Kathy, thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 2: Thanks first, thanks so much for having me Laura.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to have you on this So why

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Speaker 1: don't you introduce yourself to our listeners.

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Speaker 2: Sure, So, I am somebody who has embraced ambition across

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Speaker 2: both my professional and personal lives. I've had an over

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Speaker 2: twenty five year career at this point, and I'm in

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Speaker 2: my second act, and i have what I call a

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Speaker 2: portfolio career. I do strategy consulting and transformation work, but

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Speaker 2: I'm also the founder of Sustainable Ambition, where I'm a

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Speaker 2: life work strategist, coach and facilitator. And in this realm,

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Speaker 2: I leverage that strategy background and apply it to life

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Speaker 2: and work integration and management, and I explore rethinking success

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Speaker 2: and ambition, And I'm really passionate about helping ambitious professionals,

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Speaker 2: organizations and teams explore how to live and work differently

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Speaker 2: from more success, satisfaction and sustainability.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, what does sustainable ambition mean? I mean, how

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Speaker 1: is that different from garden variety ambition?

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Speaker 2: That's interesting? Yeah, well, I mean sustainable ambition really means like,

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Speaker 2: how do we stay engaged in our lives, in our

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Speaker 2: work over time, and how do we pursue what we

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Speaker 2: really want and desire in our lives without sacrificing our

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Speaker 2: lives in the process or ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And so Sustainable Ambition, which is your book on

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Speaker 1: this topic, is out this month in June. And in

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Speaker 1: the book you talk about are being three pillars to

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Speaker 1: sustainable ambition? Maybe you could talk through those quickly for us. Sure.

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Speaker 2: So, I say that we can find more life, work, sustainability,

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Speaker 2: and really approach our goals with more resilience when we

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Speaker 2: align the right ambitions at the right time, with the

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Speaker 2: right effort and right ambition is really about shifting from

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Speaker 2: using external motivators to drive us to shifting toward our

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Speaker 2: internal motivators, looking at what really are going to be

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Speaker 2: internal drivers of reward for us, right time is about

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Speaker 2: shifting from doing it all to doing what matters. It

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Speaker 2: asks us to look at life and work together and

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Speaker 2: consider our life stage and really prioritize what matters at

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Speaker 2: this time. And then right effort is really about shifting

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Speaker 2: from constant drive to really strategic effort. It's about how

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Speaker 2: do I be discerning about where I'm putting in my effort?

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Speaker 2: And then also am I being thoughtful and intentional? How

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Speaker 2: I am sustaining myself over time?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely well. I wanted to drill in a little bit

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Speaker 1: on that right time one because I think the experience

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of people have had, and you

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Speaker 1: know that I've talked with people about how they spend

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Speaker 1: their time over the years, is that, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not that we are ambitious or not ambitious. Often our

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Speaker 1: ambition goes up and down at different stages depending on

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Speaker 1: what else is going on in their lives. And I've

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Speaker 1: heard people going through very very intense times in their

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Speaker 1: personal life for whatever reason that happens to be good, bad, whatever,

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Speaker 1: that they are in a more coasting mindset for a

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Speaker 1: little while. It doesn't mean that they're not going to

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Speaker 1: be perfectly ambitious in a year and want to, you know,

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Speaker 1: conquer the world a year from now, but right now

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Speaker 1: they kind of need to take it down and not

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Speaker 1: Is that your experience as well?

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's definitely my experience, and I think that that

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Speaker 2: is more normal than people realize. And I think what's

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Speaker 2: important and what I try to espouse and I think

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Speaker 2: you do, is well to have people recognize that that

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Speaker 2: ebbing and flowing happens, that we aren't just one note,

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Speaker 2: or that you know, we can't dial it up and down,

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Speaker 2: because what happens when people experience that shift is it's

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Speaker 2: really uncomfortable for them. And when we identify as I'm

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Speaker 2: ambitious and all of a sudden, you feel this sense

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Speaker 2: of like, oh, I'm dialing down my ambition at this time,

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Speaker 2: it makes people think that there's a character flaw there

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Speaker 2: or something, when that's not really the case. It just

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Speaker 2: may be that you need to put your attention elsewhere,

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Speaker 2: or you need a time to kind of dial it

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Speaker 2: down so you can figure out what's next.

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Speaker 1: And I think it also helps if you are managing

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Speaker 1: other people to recognize this as well.

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Speaker 2: Right for sure. I mean I think that this is

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Speaker 2: one of the fundamental flaws honestly, and now careers are

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Speaker 2: managed inside organizations. I fundamentally think this is one of

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Speaker 2: the frustrations, you know, that why is it that corporate

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Speaker 2: America can't figure out that people have personal lives. There

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Speaker 2: are life stages where people need some flexibility in how

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Speaker 2: they accommodate the integration of these two sides of what's

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Speaker 2: just normal human life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I always find it interesting because a

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Speaker 1: lot of the conversation about work life balance, and particularly

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Speaker 1: with women, I mean, people start talking about like taking

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Speaker 1: career pauses or taking time out from the workplace. It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe we could also just recognize that you could dial

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Speaker 1: it up and down at different points too, that it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be all in or nothing.

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Speaker 2: Yes, for sure. And I go back to you know,

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Speaker 2: Amrie Slaughter wrote about this in her book where she

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Speaker 2: talks about this idea of having on and off ramps.

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Speaker 2: And I think that that strategy is really wise. And

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Speaker 2: yet I also think that when people do potentially take

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Speaker 2: an off ramp, you know, to be discerning again and

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Speaker 2: intentional when you do that. I like to say, like

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Speaker 2: position yourself well, like invest in your potential even when

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Speaker 2: you're taking an off ramp, so that when you are

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Speaker 2: ready to get back on, you are you know, marketable,

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Speaker 2: that you actually feel like you have a sense of

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Speaker 2: where you might want to jump back in. And the

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Speaker 2: other benefit of that is that oftentimes we take an

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Speaker 2: identity hit when we're not working per se, and so

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Speaker 2: investing in your potential when you're on in an off ramp, say,

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Speaker 2: has that added benefit of building your identity as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then let's talk about right effort, because sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's hard for people to figure out what is worth

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Speaker 1: putting a lot of effort into and what is not.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I mean I think you know, there's a

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Speaker 2: couple of different ways of thinking about this. I have

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Speaker 2: three questions in the book around this to kind of

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Speaker 2: help people identify like, well, what is your aspiration around

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Speaker 2: a goal? You know, how good do you want to be?

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Speaker 2: And then to really discern, well what is worth your

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Speaker 2: hard work? And also you know, to really think about, well,

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Speaker 2: what is your motivation behind a goal as well? Do

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Speaker 2: you have the desired effort to put against that? And

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Speaker 2: are you really thinking about the required effort So that

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Speaker 2: they can have some ways of exploring like what really

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Speaker 2: deserves my hard work around our ambitions as opposed to

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Speaker 2: treating every goal as if it's equal and everything deserves

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Speaker 2: like this high level of effort, which I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of ambitious people tend to operate that.

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Speaker 1: Way, well, except when they find out it's impossible. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you cannot have everything and you know, be approached with

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Speaker 1: the same level of intensity. I mean, and you'll just

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Speaker 1: it's not that you won't, it's not sustainable, and from

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Speaker 1: a burnout perspective, it's that you won't achieve all those things.

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Speaker 1: You just there's many places one can go in life,

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Speaker 1: and one cannot do all of them correct.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think that's right, And I think that you know,

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Speaker 2: this is I think what most people really get wrong.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes people ask me, well, what a most ambitious people

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Speaker 2: kind of get wrong? And I think this angle of

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Speaker 2: like not allowing ourselves to dial things down in certain

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Speaker 2: areas is an area that we there's just fundamental flaws

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Speaker 2: in doing that. You know, we just you know, we

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Speaker 2: don't have to do it all. We don't have to

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Speaker 2: achieve constantly. You know, we can reward ourselves. We can

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Speaker 2: subtract and not focus on everything, and you know, you

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Speaker 2: don't have to be driving hard all the time, you

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Speaker 2: can take breaks, and fundamentally, all those things are required

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Speaker 2: if you're not going to run yourself into the ground

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Speaker 2: and be exhausted all the time.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, Well, we're going to take a quick ad break

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Speaker 1: and I will be back with more from Kathyoetto. Well,

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Speaker 1: I am back with Kathy Onnetto, who is the author

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Speaker 1: of the new book Sustainable Ambition. We're talking about how

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Speaker 1: we can make sure that we are spending the right

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Speaker 1: amount of effort on things and doing things at the

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Speaker 1: right time as well. Let's talk about managing energy, because

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Speaker 1: that's something that comes up in a lot of this

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Speaker 1: that energy. I always say time. You know, we cannot

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Speaker 1: make more time, but we can change our energy levels

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Speaker 1: or at least monitor them through the day and understand

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Speaker 1: that there are things we can do to add to

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Speaker 1: our energy levels and things that away from our energy levels.

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Speaker 1: How does that play into the story of sustainable ambition

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Speaker 1: and what would you recommend as we think about.

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Speaker 2: Energy, I think managing energy is just as important as

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Speaker 2: managing time, and I think people need to be really

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Speaker 2: discerning about this. They need to better understand, like, well,

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Speaker 2: what is their when are they best in terms of

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Speaker 2: time in the day, in terms of managing their energy,

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Speaker 2: understanding what's called their chronotype. You know, are common chronotypes.

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Speaker 2: You can take quizes to kind of figure that out,

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Speaker 2: but understanding like am I a morning person? Am I

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Speaker 2: an evening person? And really making sure you're using those

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Speaker 2: times when you are most energetic to do the things

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Speaker 2: that are most important. But I also think, you know,

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Speaker 2: Doris Kern's Goodwin, the presidential biographer, has said, you know,

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Speaker 2: the most underappreciated leadership strength is the ability to relax

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Speaker 2: and replenish energy. And I tend to agree with this,

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Speaker 2: which is, like, again, what most of us get wrong

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Speaker 2: is that we just drive, drive, drive, versus remembering that

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Speaker 2: we need to actually have plan what I call a

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Speaker 2: plan to sustain ourselves. And even small things like taking

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Speaker 2: breaks is important. And I think people think it's such

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Speaker 2: a small thing and it sounds so simple, But I

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Speaker 2: put time here because the reality is a lot of

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Speaker 2: us don't take our breaks. Fifty percent of knowledge workers,

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Speaker 2: according to Slack, like don't take breaks during the day,

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Speaker 2: and most.

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Speaker 1: Of us don't take our vacation.

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Speaker 2: Those things figuring out a strategy and having a plan

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Speaker 2: to how do we actually make sure that we're managing

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Speaker 2: our energy in a wise way I think is really

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Speaker 2: important for us to think about.

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Speaker 1: So I would argue with that slack statistic in the

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Speaker 1: sense that people don't take breaks where they consciously get

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Speaker 1: up from their work and go do something else. Now,

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Speaker 1: I will say the number of knowledge workers who are

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Speaker 1: in their inbox and then see a breaking news alert,

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Speaker 1: go click over to it, read the article, wind up

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Speaker 1: checking their sports scores, their stocks, you know, like looking

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Speaker 1: at their WhatsApp thread from the kids' soccer league on

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Speaker 1: their phone while they're away from doing all this. Like

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Speaker 1: that number is high, and those breaks, but they didn't

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Speaker 1: feel like breaks, right.

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Speaker 2: I think that's probably right, Laura. I mean again, that's

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Speaker 2: where like intentional breaks is really important, and how you're

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Speaker 2: using that time is really important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because that doesn't add to your energy levels, whereas

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Speaker 1: actually going outside and taking a ten minute walk does exactly. Exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just to be clear on this, but there's things we

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Speaker 1: could do sort of holistically to add to our energy

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Speaker 1: levels as well. I mean, not just like taking breaks

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Speaker 1: during the day, but sort of as a whole person,

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Speaker 1: what might help.

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Speaker 2: Well, Yeah, I mean I mean what I really advocate

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Speaker 2: for people and developing their sustaining plan is to really

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Speaker 2: tap into their own knowledge of themselves and how they work.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that there's this like miracle plan out there,

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Speaker 2: that this is this one size it's all. You really

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Speaker 2: have to tune in and think about what works for you.

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Speaker 2: So I have people assess, like, well, what does restore

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Speaker 2: protect and support your energy? Do an audit of that

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Speaker 2: and see what really works for you, and then evaluate

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Speaker 2: what might be working, what might not be working, and

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Speaker 2: make some shifts. I also talk about, you know, not

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Speaker 2: just making this personal, but really you have to prototype

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Speaker 2: and practice this. Oftentimes again people say well what should

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Speaker 2: I do, and it's like, well, what do you want

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Speaker 2: to try?

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Speaker 1: What works for you?

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Speaker 2: And then go and test it out, test it out

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Speaker 2: for a certain period of time, see how it's working

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Speaker 2: for you. Is that supporting your energy levels and helping

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Speaker 2: to make sure that you feel sustained? And then it

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Speaker 2: is a practice. I think that what people often get

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Speaker 2: wrong too is that they just think it's going to

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Speaker 2: again be this miracle cure. But you have to make

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Speaker 2: it a practice, and you also have to come back

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Speaker 2: to it and reassess it because things change over time

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Speaker 2: as well, like what worked for you last season may

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Speaker 2: not work for you now, so you may need to

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Speaker 2: adjust as well over time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, people like I took a break once and it

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Speaker 1: didn't do anything for me. Right. Well. Another thing I

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Speaker 1: often talk about with people is putting big things into

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Speaker 1: your personal life that are energy boosting. That if we

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Speaker 1: have some passion price that's outside of work, that can

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Speaker 1: often I mean, even though it takes time, it can

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Speaker 1: make us feel more excited about the rest of life,

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Speaker 1: which can then you know, boost energy for everything you have.

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Speaker 1: You found that to be.

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Speaker 2: The case, Yes, yes, I often actually quote you, Laura

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Speaker 2: that in my work too, because you know, I do

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Speaker 2: think this is important. And one of the things that

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Speaker 2: I talk about in the book and around this work

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Speaker 2: is I say, you know, claim a life ambition. And

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Speaker 2: I mean it sounds silly, like most of us have

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Speaker 2: life ambitions. But yet when I tell people, hey, you

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Speaker 2: can have life ambitions. Ambition is not just for work,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people are kind of shocked. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I can have a life ambition. Yes, you can have

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Speaker 2: a life ambition, and again most of us do.

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Speaker 1: But when we.

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Speaker 2: Invest in those things, when we actually make them as

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Speaker 2: urgent and as important as some of the other things

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Speaker 2: that we think should like claim to our time and

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Speaker 2: our energy. You know, it ends up fueling us in

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Speaker 2: a way that can fuel all the other things that

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Speaker 2: we're wanting to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and now we mentioned that, you know, we can't

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Speaker 1: just rely on one hit things. But if somebody wanted

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Speaker 1: to do something today to make life feel more sustainable,

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Speaker 1: what would you recommend they try.

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Speaker 2: Well, one thing that I that I offer in the

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Speaker 2: book is this idea of where time versus wish time.

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Speaker 2: And you know, some of the what results in our

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Speaker 2: feelings of time pressure can be you know, this tension

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Speaker 2: between a mindset of where we are spending our time

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Speaker 2: versus where we wish we were spending our time. And

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Speaker 2: so I would have people do a very simple exercise,

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Speaker 2: which is go look back at your calendar for last week,

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Speaker 2: evaluate where did you spend your time? Then pause and

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Speaker 2: reflect and say where do you wish you were spending

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Speaker 2: your time? And this week, make one small shift toward

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Speaker 2: where you wish you were spending your time. Start to

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Speaker 2: do some of the things that you really want to

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Speaker 2: be doing to help support you and help you operate

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Speaker 2: at your best.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, well, we're going to take one more quick ad

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Speaker 1: break and then I'll be back with more from Kathy.

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Speaker 1: So I am talking with Kathy on Nato, who's the

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Speaker 1: author of the brand new book Sustainable Ambition. So let's

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Speaker 1: talk about your schedule, Kathy. Do you have any routines

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Speaker 1: that help make you more productive?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I probably have too many, Laura, but I will

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Speaker 2: say there's some that might seem contradictory. So I'm very

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Speaker 2: much a planner. I like to prepare ahead of time,

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Speaker 2: both my week as well as my days, and there's

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Speaker 2: pros and cons to that. I will say, like, for me,

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Speaker 2: it works, but it can also mean for others around me.

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Speaker 2: I can sometimes seem a little inflexible in terms of like,

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Speaker 2: at least one day, Like if I've kind of planned

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Speaker 2: my day, that's kind of what I'm hoping to you

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Speaker 2: have it offering as And yet I will say, in

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Speaker 2: contrast to that, I'm also a huge believer in following

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Speaker 2: my energy, and so I also really do have a plan.

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Speaker 2: But if I wake up and I'm kind of like,

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Speaker 2: that's not in me to work on that right now,

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Speaker 2: It's like if I try to work on that, I'm

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Speaker 2: just going to you know, flounder, like then I'm going

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Speaker 2: to adjust what I'm working on, so I also try

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Speaker 2: to be flexible within that.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any particular like morning routines. I know

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Speaker 1: people who listen to the show are big into that.

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Speaker 2: You know, my biggest one is probably just getting up

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Speaker 2: and having coffee, right, But also like within that time,

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Speaker 2: it's my quiet time, you know, I really I tend

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Speaker 2: to be a night our Honestly, I like to work

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Speaker 2: in the mornings and I like to work in the evenings.

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Speaker 2: And so when I wake up first, first thing in

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Speaker 2: the morning, before I get into that work period, I

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Speaker 2: do like to have quiet time and space just for

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Speaker 2: myself before I jump into my work. Those are really

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Speaker 2: kind of my morning routines.

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Speaker 1: Well, what does your schedule look like then during the day?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm trying to figure out how how one

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Speaker 1: makes this work. If you like to work in the

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Speaker 1: morning and work in the evening, what does a daily

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Speaker 1: schedule tend to look like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well, because I am self employed and

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Speaker 2: because I have a flexible schedule, it can very day

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Speaker 2: to day, but generally, you know, I am getting up early,

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Speaker 2: having that space, I jump into work fairly early. Also

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Speaker 2: because I tend to work with people on the East

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Speaker 2: coast and I'm on the West coast, so sometimes I

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Speaker 2: have to jump into things pretty early, and then I

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Speaker 2: tend to be pretty flexible with my afternoon time. I

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Speaker 2: might get a workout in in the middle of the day,

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Speaker 2: or I'm getting it in in the late afternoon, and

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Speaker 2: then I might then come back to work or often

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Speaker 2: do come back to work in the evening.

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Speaker 1: And when you said you do a lot of planning,

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Speaker 1: what does your planning routine tend to look like?

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Speaker 2: I would say I'm just very clear on both two things,

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Speaker 2: one like what I am trying to accomplish the next day,

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Speaker 2: like what do I have on my schedule? But I

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Speaker 2: will say that planning again, like I said, I like

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Speaker 2: to plan across like both different time periods, so days, weeks.

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Speaker 2: I know you're an advocate of a week, but I

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Speaker 2: also tend to look at longer horizons as well, because

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Speaker 2: I think planning for sustainability across a lot longer horizon

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Speaker 2: is more manageable, so that you can see, like, hey,

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Speaker 2: I might have an intense week or an intense month,

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Speaker 2: but I know I can build in times and other

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Speaker 2: places for downtime so that I can make it sustainable

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Speaker 2: over a longer time horizon. So I'm planning on different

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Speaker 2: time horizons like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I always love the idea of zooming out. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess one of my sort of time management tips

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Speaker 1: for people, life management tips or sustainability tips if you will,

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Speaker 1: is if if any given period looks crunched, tries zooming

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Speaker 1: your focus out longer, because usually at least by the

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Speaker 1: time you're looking at like a year, it's not going

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Speaker 1: to be intense every single moment of the entire year. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying this week won't be bad, but you

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Speaker 1: know that can be particularly helpful. People are in cyclical

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Speaker 1: sorts of jobs. I mean, somebody who's like an accountant. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know March is gonna be terrible, but that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean August will be and so you can, you know,

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Speaker 1: look out for a bigger time horizon.

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Speaker 2: I agree with that, yes, wholeheartedly.

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Speaker 1: So let's story. I always ask people question, what is

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Speaker 1: something you have done recently to take a day from

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Speaker 1: great to awesome?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think what I would say to this is,

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Speaker 2: and I did this just this weekend, which is to

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Speaker 2: actually pause and really take in a great day and

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Speaker 2: to acknowledge it. So that to me is a way

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Speaker 2: to take things from great to awesome. You know, I

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Speaker 2: really love the practice by doctor Rick Hanson. It's called heel,

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Speaker 2: which is in shorthand. It's just have an experience and

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Speaker 2: take it in and by doing that repeatedly over time,

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Speaker 2: it builds our resilience. And so that's a practice that

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Speaker 2: I really love to employ. So like this weekend, my

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Speaker 2: husband and I went out to dinner one night and

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Speaker 2: we both just paused at the end and said, wow,

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Speaker 2: that was such a great night and really took it

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Speaker 2: in and acknowledged it. And having done that, it also

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Speaker 2: stays with me much much longer and helps me. Really

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Speaker 2: it really does take it from great to awesome. It

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Speaker 2: really does help me underst like, whoa, that was really

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Speaker 2: an amazing night, And it doesn't have to be this

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Speaker 2: huge thing. That can be really small.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I love the idea of savoring. Just you know,

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Speaker 1: you not only have a good experience, but you pause

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Speaker 1: and notice that you are having a good experience. It

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Speaker 1: adds this extra layer of acknowledgment to the enjoyment and

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Speaker 1: just takes it a little little deeper. Exactly exactly and

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Speaker 1: what are you looking forward to right now.

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Speaker 2: I will say with the book coming out, one is

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Speaker 2: just continuing to have conversations about this. It's really the

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Speaker 2: thing that brings me the most joy is being in

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Speaker 2: conversation with people around how do we really rethink success

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Speaker 2: and ambition, how do we make it sustainable for ourselves?

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Speaker 2: How do we rethink how we're shaping our lives and

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Speaker 2: work in that regard. But I will also admit I

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Speaker 2: am taking a step back and looking at things with

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Speaker 2: a longer horizon. As you well know, a book launch

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Speaker 2: is intense, and so I'm really looking forward to some

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Speaker 2: downtime that I see off on the horizon. And the

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Speaker 2: final thing is just that you know, around ambition, I

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Speaker 2: really believe that, you know, some things can be brewing

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Speaker 2: and new things can come up. That's part of the

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Speaker 2: ebbing and flowing as well. We're not again just going

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Speaker 2: to keep going on one path, and so I already

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Speaker 2: sense new ambitions brewing, and in this time I'm having

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Speaker 2: to put them off on the horizon as well and

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Speaker 2: put them on the back burner until I have capacity

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Speaker 2: to kind of take them on. But I will say

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Speaker 2: I am looking forward to kind of digging into exploring further, like, well,

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Speaker 2: what new ambition is actually on the horizon?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely well, as long as we can keep track of

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Speaker 1: them and we can come back to them in the future,

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Speaker 1: right for sure?

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Speaker 2: For sure?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely so, Kathy, where can people find you?

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Speaker 2: People can find me at Sustainable Ambition dot com and

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Speaker 2: they can also find me on LinkedIn.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, Well, Kathy, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you

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Speaker 1: have feedback about this or any other episode, you can

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Speaker 1: always reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

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Speaker 1: And in the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening,

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Speaker 1: and here's to making the most of our time. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas,

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Speaker 1: or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at Laura

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Speaker 1: vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.