1 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 2 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: and speaker. 3 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 2: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 2: and course creator. We are two working parents who love 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 2: our careers and our families. 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, 8 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: We want you to get the most out of life. 10 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 3: Welcome the best of both worlds. This is Laura. 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: This episode is airing in mid March of twenty twenty six. 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: Sarah is going to be interviewing Rebecca Nuburger Goldstein, who 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: is a philosopher and the author of the book The 14 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: Mattering Instinct. So, Sarah, what drew you to this topic. 15 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: I've read a lot of psychology but not a lot 16 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 2: of philosophy, but it just sounded really interesting to me. 17 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 2: I mean, you hear people say what matters, but then like, 18 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: what is that really? And this book really kind of 19 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 2: delves into well, what does that even mean? 20 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 3: And it was a. 21 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 2: Little bit more jargony and technical philosophy that I'm used to, 22 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: but it was also very readable and really interesting, and 23 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: I realized that I honestly hadn't read a lot of philosophy, 24 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 2: so it was kind of fun to just like delve 25 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 2: into a different field. 26 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: Not since then in the art of motorcycle maintenance. I 27 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: loved Sen's fun book. 28 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 2: You know, it's polarizing though, Like I think I was 29 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 2: in tenth or eleventh grade and half the class was 30 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: like this is terrible, and I remember being like an. 31 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: Outlier, yeah, and liking it, really liking it interesting. Okay, 32 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 1: so not a whole lot of philosophy happening in your life. 33 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I was thinking back to like Emerson Thau, 34 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 2: I mean that was that was the philosophy. 35 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: That was a philosopher that a long time ago in 36 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:54,639 Speaker 1: Miss Goldstein with the mattering instinct. 37 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 3: Now, so we're on that. Yeah, So what what what 38 00:01:58,640 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 3: have you been reading lately? 39 00:01:59,640 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: Then? 40 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: Not usually philosophy, Yeah, I mean I usually have some 41 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 2: kind of nonfiction thing going, but it tends to be 42 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: more in like personal development or memoir kind of space. 43 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: I just recently read Marriage at c That was kind 44 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 2: of interesting, a. 45 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 4: Story about a couple that gets shipwrecked. 46 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 2: And survived for one hundred and eighteen days on a 47 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 2: little tiny raft in the middle of the ocean. But 48 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: you are usually reading I don't know about philosophy, but 49 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: some interesting non fiction. Esoteric is how Sarah referred to it. Yes, yeah, yeah, 50 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: I've been reading a lot of nonfiction. It's either coffee 51 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 2: table books, read white and faded. 52 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: Recently, that's put another popular Instagram account that has like 53 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: all white linen photos whatever. 54 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 3: It's very pretty. 55 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: But then I also read about like the ancient Earth, 56 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: or animal evolution or human evolution. I recently read a 57 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: book it was called Close Encounters the Human Kind, which 58 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: is about a from a Korean American paleontologist whose name 59 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: escapes me at the moment, but it was written for 60 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: a very pop audience kind of thing, but about ancient 61 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: human kind. 62 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 3: I was like, oh, this is like perfect for me. 63 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 3: It's like a. 64 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: Book written right up my alley. So you know, I've 65 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: been reading that. 66 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 3: But also Shakespeare. Do I get credit for that? 67 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: Of course you get credit. Well, that's one of your's 68 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: your projects. 69 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: That's my project. I've been rereading his greatest hits. Greatest 70 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: hits defined as the ones I want to reread, and 71 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: I made it through as you like it. That's a 72 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: fun comedy though, so that woul so very hard. I'm 73 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: currently most of the way through Hamlet, yeah, a little darker, 74 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: of course, and then I think next month will be 75 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: Midsummer Night's Dream. 76 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 3: I started an alternating comedy, Tragedy. I think that's my favorite. 77 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good one. It's the one I've seen 78 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: most often performed. I really like it. So yeah, well 79 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: all right, well let's hear Oh, oh, have you been 80 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: abandoning books? 81 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 4: Sarah? 82 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 3: This was your goal? Are you doing it? 83 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 2: It was my goal and I'm not going to name 84 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: the specific book, but I got so I haven't had 85 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 2: the impulse to abandon except for I got like fifty 86 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: pages from the end of a book and I was 87 00:03:58,560 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: kind of like, I've had enough of this. 88 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 3: I should have abandoned it. 89 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 2: But then I was like tiny party me was like, 90 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 2: what if there's some really interesting thing at the end. 91 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: And she saved it for the last fifty pages? 92 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 4: You know what, should have abandoned it? 93 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 3: Just holding out on you. 94 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: My goal is, truly I want to be able to report, 95 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: and I'm not going to report with the specific books, 96 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 2: but I want to tell you all that I've abandoned 97 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: at least two books this year, So I'm going to keep. 98 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 4: My eye out for abandonable books. 99 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: Abandon a book, not that you start them thinking you 100 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: are hoping to abandon them. 101 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: But if it's not winning you over, I have to 102 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 2: imagine that. Like I typically read around fifty books a year, 103 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 2: with fifty picks, there's going to be at least two 104 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 2: that just are not for me at the moment. 105 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 4: So I just got to make sure that could happen. 106 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: All right, Well sounds good, Well, all right, well let's 107 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: hear what Sarah and Rebecca Goldstein. 108 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 5: Have to say. 109 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 2: Well, I am so excited to be chatting today with 110 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: Rebecca Newberger Goldstein, who is a philosopher and author of 111 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 2: The Mattering Instinct, which we're going to talk about today. 112 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 2: And this book just came across by radar and I 113 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: I thought she would make a fascinating guest, so I'm 114 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 2: so excited to chat with her today. 115 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 4: Rebecca, want to go ahead and introduce herself to our audience. 116 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 5: Hi, you said it my name? And what I do? 117 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 5: I am? That strange thing a philosopher. 118 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 2: I guess that means you didn't necessarily set out to 119 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 2: do that when you first got started in your career. 120 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 5: I started in the sciences. I was strictly physics math, 121 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 5: and then I had questions about physics and math, and 122 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 5: through the guidance of some of my professors, I was 123 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 5: made to understand that my problems, the questions were philosophical, 124 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 5: they were philosophical questions, and so I ended up going 125 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 5: to graduate school in philosophy, specializing in philosophy of science. 126 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 5: The wonderful thing about philosophy is there's a philosophy of everything. 127 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 5: You know of philosophy of religion, philosophy of language, philosophy 128 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 5: of science, philosophy of philosophy, you know, philosophy of knowledge, 129 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 5: philosophy of mine. I mean, every area of a human 130 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 5: concern you can think of, there's a corresponding philosophy of it. 131 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 5: And so I've been able to roam as free as 132 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 5: I want. And with this book, I've roamed very far 133 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 5: away from my beginnings. 134 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: You did and you didn't, because there are plenty of 135 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 2: hard scientists that are featured in the book itself. But 136 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: I'm gonna actually we'll go back to that, because I 137 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: would love to know of all the various areas of 138 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 2: philosophy you could have decided to focus on what drew 139 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: you to this idea of mattering, And I guess give 140 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 2: our listeners like an introduction to what that even means 141 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 2: to you in the first place. 142 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, So to matter, as I analyze, it, means to 143 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 5: be deserving of attention. You know, when we say that 144 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 5: something doesn't matter, we say, don't waste your time, don't 145 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 5: waste your energy. It's not deserving. And to a philosopher, 146 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 5: this word deserving is very interesting because it's what we 147 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 5: philosophers call normative, and it has to do not just 148 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 5: what is the case, but what ought to be the 149 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 5: case deserving. This has to do with in some sense ethics, 150 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 5: you know, it has to do with justification. When you 151 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 5: say you're wasting your life on things that don't matter, 152 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 5: you say, there's no justification for spending all your time 153 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 5: worrying about these things. So it really gets to very 154 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 5: much the heart of the questions, this notion of mattering. 155 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 5: What is deserving of our attention? And are we ourselves 156 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 5: deserving of attention? Are we deserving of our own attention 157 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 5: which we are programmed to give ourselves. Leading a human 158 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 5: life is very complicated, and we have to give a 159 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 5: lot of attention to ourselves and the environment and how 160 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 5: the environment is affecting us. We have the emotions built 161 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 5: in to help us with this. So it's so much 162 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 5: about us follows from the fact that we consider ourselves 163 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 5: to be deserve serving of our own attention. We have to. 164 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 5: It's pounded into our identity. But we can step outside 165 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 5: and say, but really, am I so deserving? I'm just 166 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 5: one little thing in all the universe? What makes me 167 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 5: think I'm so deserving of my own attention? And that 168 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 5: pushes us into a different sphere, this sphere, this normalous sphere, 169 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 5: the sphere of justification, of trying to somehow justify yourself 170 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 5: in your own eyes. And I think that's very much 171 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 5: what we mean by a meaningful life. We talk about 172 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 5: people having a meaningful life. What we mean is something like, yeah, 173 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 5: you have found a way to feel deserving of all 174 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 5: of the attention that you have to give yourself. And 175 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 5: perhaps you have some project and what to call a 176 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 5: mattering project, and if it's working for you, that's a 177 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 5: meaningful life. You have a purpose. But we try to 178 00:08:55,120 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 5: meet this mattering instinct in so many different ways. 179 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 2: And you talk about us about yes, the book is 180 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: about all of those different ways and some of the 181 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: I would say almost pros and cons or just the 182 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: exploration of each of them, and before we get into them, 183 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 2: because we're I'm gonna have you actually go into each 184 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 2: of the sort of four big categories that you talk 185 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: about in the book. But you also had a whole 186 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: section on how humans like this has to be something 187 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 2: unique to humans so that we maybe don't see in animals, 188 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 2: or that this is something that makes us human. Can 189 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 2: you expand on that a little bit? 190 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 5: Yes, I think that what we are creatures of matter 191 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 5: who long to matter. You can only do that in English, 192 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 5: by the way, but thank goodness for English, because it's 193 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 5: such a short way of getting to what I think 194 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 5: is the core of us. We are physical systems, and 195 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 5: I can go back. I mean, I'm still enamored of science, 196 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 5: and so I've wanted to derive this feature of us 197 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 5: from the laws, ultimately the laws of matter that shaped us, 198 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 5: going all the way back to my beloved physics, the 199 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 5: law of entropy, which basically says that all things are 200 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 5: going towards destruction, including us, including the universe. But still 201 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 5: that doesn't mean that we don't matter. We certainly matter 202 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 5: to ourselves. All animals we get this from, you know, 203 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 5: the natural selection. All animals are first and foremost committed 204 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 5: to their own surviving and thriving at least long enough 205 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 5: to pass on their genes, which is the whole mechanism 206 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 5: for how natural selection works. They don't stop and think, 207 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 5: but why why why should I be so devoted to me? 208 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 5: What's so special about me? But we can do that, 209 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 5: we alone do it. It's these great, big brains that 210 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 5: we have evolved for other purposes entirely that give us 211 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 5: the capacity to step outside of ourselves, in the capacity 212 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 5: we have for self reflection and to guard ourselves as 213 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 5: another object in the world that we can interrogate, that 214 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 5: we can try to discover things about. Right, That's what 215 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 5: psychology is all about, That's what going to therapy is 216 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 5: all about. To discover things about this very object that 217 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 5: one is. And one of the things that we discover 218 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 5: is that we each take ourselves very seriously. We have 219 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 5: to get on with our life. But there comes the step, 220 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 5: and I think it comes to all of us on 221 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 5: some level. Some of us it comes over and over again. 222 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 5: Some of us we confronted in early adolescents or early adulthood, 223 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 5: and we come to a conclusion about it and get 224 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 5: on with our lives. But what comes the step where 225 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 5: we ask this self reflective question that demands of us 226 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 5: some kind of justification. This is the way I'm going 227 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 5: to prove to myself that I am truly deserving of 228 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 5: all the attention that I have to give myself. I'm 229 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 5: a great animal lover. I've spent a lot of time 230 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 5: in Africa. I've spent a lot of time with the chimpanzees, 231 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 5: and there's so much that's human about the chimpanzees. When 232 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 5: I watch a mother chim staring, and my whole apartment 233 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 5: is plastered with pictures of the chimpanzee mothers staring, that 234 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 5: eye contacted with their infants. I mean, it's just and 235 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 5: I see us in this. But as complicated as the 236 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 5: chimpanzees are, none of them sort of step outside, Well, 237 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 5: what's this all about? What's this life all about? What 238 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 5: is it that I'm supposed to do with this short 239 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 5: time here? What is the purpose? What provides the coherence 240 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 5: to this life of mine? And that's something that just 241 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 5: comes out of this very big brain we have. I 242 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 5: tell a long story about how it gets there. But 243 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 5: that's the short story of this cutting to the chase. 244 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 5: We are creatures who engage in justification, and most importantly, 245 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 5: justification about ourselves, about how we are pursuing our life. 246 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 4: Totally beautiful. 247 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 2: And there's there's some scenes in your book that you 248 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 2: describe with I think chimpanzees, like sitting there huddled in 249 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 2: awe at a sunset. But then you still argue that 250 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: they're not doing it because they're asking about the meaning 251 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: of life. They're just pure, like unadulterated awe, which is 252 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 2: a little bit different. 253 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 4: But it was a beautiful scene anyway. I might have cried, Yeah, no, 254 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 4: when I think about it was you. 255 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 5: And I'm not somebody who talks in terms of the 256 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 5: supernatural at all. My focus is very much scientific. But 257 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 5: that was almost to me a miraculous experience that I 258 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 5: was hiking in a cape of Good Hope, and I 259 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 5: thought I was completely alone, high up on a mountain 260 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 5: looking out at the sea, where there was this rainbow 261 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 5: rising up out of the sea. It was miraculous, you know, 262 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 5: I mean, it wasn't, but it was so beautiful and 263 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 5: I was all struck. And then I noticed a little 264 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 5: bit beneath me there were It wasn't monkeys, it was. 265 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 4: That boom oh yes, yes, yes, thank you. 266 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 5: That are the most frockouss crazy creatures, you know, chattering, chattering, 267 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 5: And there was a whole family sitting there staring out 268 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 5: at the same side. I was staring at totally silent, 269 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 5: and I thought, oh my, as if this experience is 270 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 5: not great enough, I am sharing it with another species. 271 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 5: We are both sharing on It was. Yeah, it was 272 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 5: one of the highlights of my life. Yes, so cool. 273 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick break and then we're 274 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: going to get into kind of four areas of types 275 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: of I guess mattering projects that people tend to take on. 276 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 4: And then I have lots of questions, so we'll be 277 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 4: right back, all right. 278 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 2: So in your book, which by the way, comes with 279 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: a useful mattering map that you can refer to to 280 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 2: kind of understand the kind of big areas of mattering 281 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: that you talk about, but you kind of focus on 282 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 2: four the hedonics drivers, the socializers, the transcenders, and the competitors. 283 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 2: Can you share a little bit about this framework you 284 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 2: came up with for our listeners to understand what all 285 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: of these are. 286 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 5: I started to talk to people about it, and it's 287 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 5: the most interesting conversations I've found that you can have 288 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 5: with people about how they think about their life in 289 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 5: the large picture, you know, what it's about, what would 290 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 5: cause an existential crisis, make them feel like, oh, I'm 291 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 5: doing it all wrong. You know, I've been totally mistaken. 292 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 5: I've constructed my life on false pharmases. And I have 293 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 5: found also doing a tremendous amount reading about it. It was 294 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 5: just my little hobby on the side and biographies and 295 00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 5: that kind of but also magazines also advice columnists fascinating 296 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 5: for getting a picture of human mention. And I started 297 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 5: to think, I mean, people have so many different mattering projects. 298 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 5: I once met a man I was waiting for actually 299 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 5: was my future husband, in the lobby of a Manhattan hotel, 300 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 5: and this guy comes and sits next to me and 301 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 5: he's trying to pick me up. Pretty obviously. I started 302 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 5: to talk to him about mattering. What makes him get 303 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 5: up in the morning and get on with his life. 304 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 5: He was a genuine, honest to god pick up artists. 305 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 5: That was his mannering project. I was just part of 306 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 5: his project, you know. And he had his statistics, he 307 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 5: had books, he had his heroes, and so over the 308 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 5: years you talk to people and you see, oh my god, 309 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 5: the variety of the diversity of ways that people try 310 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 5: to answer this longing that we all have to justify 311 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 5: ourselves in our own eyes. But I was looking for patterns, 312 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 5: you know, in the scientific way. You want to see patterns. 313 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 5: And here's that's what I came up with talking to 314 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 5: tons and tons of people, and I'm reading not as 315 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 5: much as I could about it. There are, first of all, 316 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 5: those that I call the transcenders, and they understand this 317 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 5: question in transcending terms, in metaphysical terms, in religious or 318 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 5: spiritual terms, that there is a transcended being, whether they 319 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,199 Speaker 5: call it God or not, who created the laws of 320 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 5: nature without and the moral otter within, and created each 321 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 5: one of us. And that is our purpose to live 322 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 5: out the purpose that God has for us. And of course, 323 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 5: depending on their view of God, you might have a 324 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 5: very different view about that plan. And religious people often 325 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 5: clash off and violently about what that plan might be. 326 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 5: But that's how they see it. And I'm not such. 327 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 5: I was born to be such a believer. My family 328 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 5: is very religious, but I'm not. And you know, when 329 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 5: I tell people when they ask me about that, and 330 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 5: I answer, honestly, they're just flabberc acid. What gets you 331 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 5: out of bed in the morning, You know that that 332 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 5: is really what so answers their longing to justify their 333 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 5: way of life in their own eyes. So those are 334 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 5: transcenders and it's a very powerful way of going about trying. 335 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 4: To yes, like they can't even anything else. 336 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 5: You matter, You have a role to play in the 337 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 5: narrative of eternity. I mean, doesn't get bigger than that. 338 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 5: Then there are heroic let me go to socializes, because 339 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 5: I think most people that I've spoken to are socializers. 340 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 5: When I ask them do you matter? They understand it 341 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 5: to me? Do you matter to other people? And it 342 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 5: may be people who are in their lives, you know, 343 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 5: their family, their friends, their neighbors, their community workers, their colleagues, whoever, 344 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 5: the people who are in their lives who are paying 345 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 5: them attention, whether they deserve it or not. And depending 346 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 5: on their relationship with these people, that's how they justify 347 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 5: their life. And those advice columns that I love to 348 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 5: read are all about that kind of thing, you know, 349 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 5: the problems that arise with people in your life. So 350 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 5: it doesn't necessarily go well, none of these ways necessarily 351 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 5: go well, it's hard to be human. That's the overall 352 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 5: message that I have as if we all didn't know that. 353 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 5: But some of these socializers, it's not. They want to 354 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 5: matter to people who aren't necessarily in their lives. That's 355 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 5: what the craving for fame, which is a very strong 356 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 5: craving in many people, especially millennials I've found, really want 357 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 5: to be famous, and their statistics, there are polls that 358 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 5: show this to be the case, and they will give 359 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 5: up their intimate relationships with their family, with their loved 360 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 5: ones to be famous, which is to matter to a 361 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 5: bunch of strangers. That's what it means to be famous. 362 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 5: One cynic that I read, I can't remember who it 363 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 5: was said to be famous means that you matter to 364 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 5: a lot of people that you are very happy don't 365 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 5: matter to you. So it's asymmetrical kind of but yes, 366 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 5: it's a strong But if you're trying to convince yourself 367 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 5: that you're deserving of your own attention, which I think 368 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 5: the mattering instinct is all about the fact that hordes 369 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 5: of other people are paying you attention, seems good evidence, 370 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 5: you know, Okay, So there's the socializers, and most people 371 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 5: who are are socializers with their people in there, with 372 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 5: their family yea, their children there, yeah, and then they're 373 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 5: there heroic strivers. Heroic strivers don't care about mannering to others, 374 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 5: not to God, not to other people. They have some 375 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 5: standards of excellence they have fixed in their minds, and 376 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 5: it could be intellectual, artistic, athletic, entrepreneurial, ethical, and military, 377 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 5: I mean all sorts of standards, and they need to 378 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 5: feel that if they're not realizing them, they're coming closer, 379 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 5: they're approaching it. 380 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 3: Most of the. 381 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 5: People I know spending my life in academia are heroics drivers, 382 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,400 Speaker 5: and it might be important to get acceptance from other 383 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 5: people just to be able to pursue these goals. You know, 384 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 5: if you're you can't get into graduate school, you can't 385 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 5: pursue the goal, or can't get into medical school whatever. 386 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 5: But I know somebody who put his entire early life 387 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 5: in being an Olympic swimmer. He was a varsity swimmer 388 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 5: at Stamford. He was an excellent swimmer, and then he 389 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 5: didn't have the exact right measurements, you know, for proportions 390 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 5: of his shoulders to his legs or whatever. It couldn't 391 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 5: be an Olympic swimmer, and so you know he closed off. 392 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 5: This is a bad thing that can happen with heroics, drivers, competitors, 393 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 5: these are people. So when I asked going back to 394 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 5: heroic service, when I asked them, do you matter that? 395 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 5: They hear it as have I achieved something? Have I 396 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 5: achieved what I have set out to achieve? And it 397 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 5: doesn't have to be grand. It has to be grand 398 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 5: for them. So for example, a marathon runner who devoted 399 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 5: a tremendous amount of time and energy, it was her 400 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 5: mannering project. She just wanted to finish and not be 401 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 5: the last one. I mean, that was what she was 402 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 5: going to justify herself to herself. Okay, competitors here, the 403 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 5: question is they get very discomfited when I ask them, 404 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 5: what makes you feel like you matter? Because to them, 405 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 5: mannering means mattering more than others. It's a competition. It's 406 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 5: zero sum to the extent that others matter, it's taking 407 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 5: something away from their own mattering. It's a very adversarial situation. 408 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 5: Sometimes my favorite story is a scientist. I know a biologist, 409 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 5: an excellent biologist. He won a Nobel Prize, and somebody 410 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,479 Speaker 5: else who also knows him quite well said to me, well, 411 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 5: I'll just call him x. X was happy for all 412 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 5: of fifteen minutes in his life when he got that 413 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 5: call from Stockholm, and then he realized after fifteen minutes 414 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 5: that other people have also gotten that call from Stockholm, 415 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 5: and they're what his happiness. He's a real competitor, you know. 416 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 5: So competitors can do great things. They can also drive 417 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 5: us crazy, and that some competitors are in competition with 418 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 5: other individuals. There are competitors that belong to a group 419 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 5: and they see their group as being in competition with 420 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 5: another group that doesn't matter as much, and they're trying 421 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 5: to right this wrong of mattering can become their mattering project. 422 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 5: And one of the people I profile a fascinating person. 423 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 5: Of everybody I think I've spoken to over all the years, 424 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 5: he fascinating me the most. He was a ex neo 425 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 5: Nazi skinhead who was committed to making sure that these 426 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 5: people who were taking mattering away from from his white 427 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 5: Christian people were not going to succeed. And he did 428 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 5: terrible things like that, and he hated people of color. 429 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 5: He hated Jews. They believed Jews were putting people of 430 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 5: color up to this, and so we had this whole 431 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 5: theory and he came out of it, but he understood 432 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 5: exactly what I was talking about. When I was talking 433 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,719 Speaker 5: about the longing to matter, that was exactly he felt 434 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 5: a deficit in that, and he felt that other people 435 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 5: were taking his mattering away from him. So we can 436 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 5: express itself in so many ways. I say that it 437 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 5: can be responsible for the very best in us and 438 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 5: the very worst achievements and atrocities, love and hatred. 439 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 2: Well, that story was such a fascinating one. The relationship 440 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: that you built with him and learning about what brought 441 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 2: him to the place that he was in the first 442 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 2: place was incredibly powerful. We're going to take a quick break, 443 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 2: and then I have so many questions about how these 444 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 2: might interact, as well as maybe a little bit about AI. 445 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 2: So we're gonna take a little bit of a right turn, 446 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 2: so we'll be right back. All right, We are back, 447 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,239 Speaker 2: And my question I have so interesting that you use 448 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 2: the example of a marathon runner in that prior when 449 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 2: you were talking about he down ex drivers, and I guess, well, 450 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 2: the reason it's interesting for me is because I'm a 451 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: former marathon runner who then who was really really into 452 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 2: it and then had a major health problem that meant 453 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 2: I suddenly could not run anymore for the rest of 454 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: my life. I felt the pain of a mattering project 455 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 2: getting stolen away from me. However, I think the one 456 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 2: thing that helps I believe I had multiple battering projects. 457 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 2: I mean I have to believe that, because otherwise I 458 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: think I would have lost my way and it'd be 459 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 2: over right. 460 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 4: But instead it was like, Okay, well, thank god. 461 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 2: I also have my wonderful family, and I have my writing, 462 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 2: and I have this out of my friends and traveling 463 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 2: and all the other things. So can you be more 464 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: than one thing? Is this more about like what's dominant? 465 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 2: But you can still have multiple mattering projects? 466 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 5: Oh yeah. And I think aside from mattering, we have 467 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 5: this other need that comes to us by way of 468 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 5: being gregarious creatures evolved from precarious species. We are. You 469 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 5: know that we do need to have most of us 470 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 5: close relationships, at least one close relationship. I do know 471 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 5: some mathematicians who seemed to their relationship is with the 472 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 5: numbers and that's it. But I mean, for most of us, 473 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 5: what I have found, and I'm actually experiencing this right 474 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 5: now with somebody, a very close friend, who has gone 475 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 5: through a terrible shift in their life, with everything that 476 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 5: mattered to them is gone, is taken away. This has 477 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 5: brought him and his love one closer together. The intimacy 478 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 5: is vibrant, more vibrant than ever. And he said to me, 479 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 5: if that had gone, and I had, he's the mattering 480 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 5: project going, well, I don't think I could have gotten 481 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 5: past that if that intimate relationship had gone, I would not. 482 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 5: But the reverse is not true. This is a very 483 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 5: bad thing that's happened to this person, and he must 484 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:30,959 Speaker 5: rebuild his life, and it's bad, but it's become the 485 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,959 Speaker 5: source of strength in this intimacy. And that need of 486 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 5: ours that I think is universal, excluding some mathematicious, but 487 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 5: generally universal, has nothing to do with trying to prove ourselves. 488 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 5: I mean, to have people in your life means they 489 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 5: are going to regard you as deserving of their attention 490 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 5: and hopefully their care, no matter what. So his wife 491 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 5: might have loved him for the big things he was 492 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 5: doing in the world, but the love can survive. I 493 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 5: mean for creatures like us, these creatures who are in 494 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 5: the business of justifying ourselves to ourselves. It's also just 495 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 5: such a relief, It's such a safe spot to have 496 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 5: that these people who to whom you matter, and hopefully 497 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 5: they matter with you as well. It's best when it's reciprocal. 498 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 5: It's not always reciprocal, but it's best when it is. 499 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 5: So that thing having your family that you mentioned after 500 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 5: losing what was in fact and mattering project is I think, 501 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 5: outside of this whole mattering thing, it's always there, It's 502 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 5: always in need, and it can carry us through some 503 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 5: very difficult periods in our life. It is a matter 504 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 5: I think of preponderating. These are empirical hypotheses, and there 505 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 5: are some psychologists, particularly those who do positive psychology, becoming 506 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 5: extremely interested in my theory, and they are going to 507 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 5: test my various empirical hypotheses. I'm a philosopher, and even 508 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 5: when I was in physics, I was a theoretical physicist. 509 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 5: I'm not an experimentalist in any shape or form. And 510 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 5: so I have what all I can report is what 511 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 5: I have none scientifically found through these many conversations, is 512 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 5: that broics drivers tend to be heroic strivers. If one 513 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 5: mannering project fails, they will find something else. Some other 514 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 5: standard of excellence. And it's interesting that you mentioned you 515 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 5: have your family, yes, but you have your writing. What 516 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 5: else did you mention my podcast or yes? I mean 517 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 5: you there's an excellence, there's a trying to and a 518 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 5: creativity something that can be perfected, the writing, the podcasting. 519 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 5: You know that you feel that you're striving towards making progress. 520 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 5: And that's one of the people that I profile. And 521 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 5: again he's someone who's well known. His name is gun Kurtz. 522 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 5: He's also a very close friend. And he had set 523 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 5: out his whole life was music. He got into music 524 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 5: very young. He was very talent. He went into classical guitar, 525 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 5: but he won fellowships to big conservatories and one contest 526 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 5: and you know, he's a really talented guy and his 527 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 5: whole life was music. He couldn't make it though as 528 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,959 Speaker 5: a professional. It's very hard to make it as a 529 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 5: classical guitarist. So you're not hired by orchestras, you know, 530 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 5: and there are no concerti written for the classical guitar, 531 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 5: so you either make it as a soloist or you're 532 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,239 Speaker 5: playing for weddings and mar mitzvahs, you know. And then 533 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 5: he didn't want that and he had a real existential crisis, 534 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 5: and for years and years he was really in the 535 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 5: dumps and felt like a failure. His whole life was 536 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 5: music and he couldn't listen to music. It pained him. 537 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 5: It was like being spurned by the love of your life. 538 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 5: You know that it had worked, and then they spurned you, 539 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:56,959 Speaker 5: and you count haven't You don't even want to hear 540 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 5: about them, you know, you just yeah. But over the 541 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 5: years re educated himself. He went he got his doctorate. 542 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 5: He's still a heroic striver in comparative literature. He became 543 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 5: a writer. He's a successful writer, and now he can 544 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 5: even go back to practicing music. And it's like when 545 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 5: you become friends with that lover who broke your heart, 546 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 5: you know, and after the heartbreak is over, you can 547 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 5: go back and be friends. Well, he's become friends again 548 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 5: with music, but it's not his life. And he said 549 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 5: that he can tolerate failure in his writing life, because 550 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 5: of course, to be a heroic striver is you have 551 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 5: a lot of failure in your life. You know, the 552 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 5: higher you aim, the more you court failure. He can 553 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 5: tolerate failure in his writing life much better than he 554 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 5: and still go on much better than he could in 555 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 5: his musical life, so there can be these big changes, 556 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 5: and I'm also interested. And again I hand this over 557 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 5: to my friends the psychologist to test how aging X 558 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 5: one's mannering project and does it affect the genders differently, 559 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 5: because when he hears about a lot of men who 560 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 5: were incredibly ambitious as they coming up in the world, 561 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 5: and then as they get older, it's like, Oh, I 562 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 5: had a family, That's what I wanted to vote myself to. 563 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 5: Now I've had heard a lot of stories of that 564 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 5: kind from talking to people, so yeah, well. 565 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 2: I will be so excited to see where the empirical 566 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 2: research ends up going, so I will absolutely stay tuned 567 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 2: for that. My last question is one I don't I mean, 568 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 2: I feel like you must have gotten this one before, 569 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 2: but we'll see. As I was reading your book, it 570 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 2: struck me that I think a lot of my discomfort 571 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 2: with all things ay I centers around mattering. 572 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 4: So I'm not the biggest fan of it. 573 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 2: I mean, I understand it's there, I understand it's not 574 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 2: going anywhere. I understand it can do some great things, 575 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 2: and I also hate it. I think I mostly hate 576 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 2: it because it makes me feel like if it can 577 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 2: do things better then we can do Then what's the 578 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 2: point of anything? And goodbye art and music and meaning? 579 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 2: So yes, where do you see Aila? 580 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 5: What do I say to that? Yes, this is I 581 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 5: think our deep discomfort. And you know, that's why I 582 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 5: really want to put this mattering thing out there. It's 583 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 5: a framework that clarifies a lot of issues, including our 584 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 5: discomfort with AI and what we should do about it. 585 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 5: You know, cann we have some input into where it goes, 586 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 5: you know, And I said, there are two very important 587 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 5: aspects of our flourishing. One that comes to us by 588 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 5: way of our being gregorious creatures. We need this connectedness, 589 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 5: some kind of intimacy with other humans. That's what we 590 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,719 Speaker 5: evolve to be intimate with. And we need to have 591 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 5: a way of justifying all the attention that we pay 592 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 5: to ourselves, a way of saying, yes, my life is meaningful, 593 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 5: at least in my own eyes, you know, it's meaningful. 594 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 5: And both of these I think are the cornerstones of 595 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 5: a flourishing human life, and I think AI threatens both 596 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 5: of them. Like there are people who would rather have 597 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 5: intimate relationship with a bot that will make them feel 598 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 5: oh so important, oh so loved, oh so gratified in 599 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 5: every way, and even you can connect it up with 600 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 5: a robot and you can. You don't have physical intimacy 601 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 5: with it. You and it's so much easier to have 602 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 5: this intimacy in some sense with this AI agent that 603 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,720 Speaker 5: you've told it exactly how you want to be treated. 604 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 5: And I have listened to recordings. I haven't met anybody 605 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 5: yet who has such a relationship, but I've listened to 606 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 5: recordings with people who have such and that's I don't 607 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 5: think that's great. I really don't even one who married 608 00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 5: you had marriage ceremony. Anyway. I think we develop up 609 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 5: in dealing with other humans and their needs and seeing 610 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 5: the reality of them. That's what intimacy is about. The 611 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 5: hardest thing is to recognize the reality of others is 612 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 5: just as real as us. 613 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 3: It's how we grow. 614 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 5: It's how we grow psychologically, so how we grow emotionally, 615 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 5: so how we grow morally. Right, this bothers me, But 616 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 5: there's the other aspect that you have spoken about. Look, 617 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 5: if an AI can do philosophy much better than I can, 618 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 5: or write novels better than or compose music, well, it's 619 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 5: taken away one of our most meaningful and creative sources 620 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 5: of mattering. So I worry about this one of the 621 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 5: things that can't take away from us. And here's what 622 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 5: is that. You know, one way to be a heroic 623 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 5: striver is to be an ethical heroics driver. And there 624 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,359 Speaker 5: are two people I profile in the book who are 625 00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:00,320 Speaker 5: ethical heroic strivers. They just are trying to make a 626 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 5: flourish And that is something that no matter what, even 627 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 5: if nobody wants to write music or paint pictures, or 628 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 5: write novels, or do physics research or prove mathematical theorems, 629 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 5: because AI is doing it so much better. First of all, 630 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 5: I just we want to do it for ourselves. It's 631 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 5: ourselves we're trying to justify. So it's just that is 632 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 5: not going to serve us well, that is not going 633 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 5: to service well, if you can find cures for diseases, yes, yes, everything. 634 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 5: What we should be thinking about is the flourishing of humanity, 635 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 5: and don't take away precious creative sources of certain talented 636 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 5: people feeling that they flourish. There's also great joy. I 637 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 5: know when I listen to a piece of music moves 638 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 5: me and seems a work of genius. Part of my 639 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 5: awe is a human? Did this a fellow human? Health? 640 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: Oh? 641 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 5: Could they do this? I can barely follow this music? 642 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,479 Speaker 5: Your molleor I could barely follow it. It came out 643 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 5: of a human's mind. The same with novels. When you 644 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 5: reach Shakespeare, there's a Yiddish word that means to take 645 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 5: great pride, not in yourself, but in another's accomplishment, and 646 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 5: usually parents or grandparents use it about their children or 647 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 5: their grandchildren. I'm felling because of this child's achievements. But 648 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 5: I think that we can fell just of the achievements 649 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 5: of humanity. And they're being a Shakespeare and there being 650 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 5: a Mozart, when there being a Michael Jordan who can 651 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 5: fly all of these and this is a source of 652 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 5: joy in us. It's a generous and expansive source of joy, 653 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 5: the opposite of envy and the opposite of competitive wish 654 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 5: they'd be encouraged to have that feeling. 655 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 4: And not be very shaful with it and protect it. 656 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 5: Not that will take that away from us. The joy 657 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,879 Speaker 5: of creating, the joy of participating in others creativity. These 658 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,839 Speaker 5: are expansive emotions that contribute to our flourishing. So that's 659 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 5: what should be uppermost here, what will contribute to you 660 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 5: and flourishing? 661 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 4: Oh I love that question as a framework. Well, our 662 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 4: time is up. 663 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,919 Speaker 2: This has been so interesting, and your book, by the way, 664 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 2: is doing very well for good reason, because it's fascinating. 665 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 2: Give listeners the full title and where it where else 666 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:29,399 Speaker 2: they can find you, if anywhere else? 667 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 5: Yes, So it's called the mattering instinct. How our deepest 668 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 5: longing drives us and divides us. We didn't even get 669 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,439 Speaker 5: into the divisions, but you can see how we would 670 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 5: you stake your life on something you think this is 671 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 5: the right way. Everybody ought to do it, the way 672 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 5: I'm doing it. But it's on Amazon, it's on hopefully 673 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 5: it's in bookstores and I'm sure it's everywhere. Yeah, So 674 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 5: I know it's on Amazon. 675 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 4: And if you like it this we leave a nice review. 676 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 5: Yeah. And I also have a substack that I've just 677 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,719 Speaker 5: started because I had to leave out so much in 678 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 5: the book because mattering and death, mattering and agent and 679 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 5: mattering and sexism, you know, all of these things. So 680 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 5: I thought I would start a sub stack and it's 681 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 5: called the mattering Map. Minutes under my map. 682 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 4: The mattering map. Yes, perfect, Well, thank you so much. 683 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:23,320 Speaker 4: For coming on. This has been so interesting. 684 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 5: Well, thank you so much for having me and for 685 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 5: your interesting questions. 686 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: Well we are back Sarah interviewing Rebecca Newbigger Goldstein on 687 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:38,399 Speaker 1: the Mattering Instinct. So, Sarah, speaking of mattering projects and 688 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: what you guys talked about in this interview. It has 689 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: been about a year almost exactly since your heart incident 690 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: and all that came out of that. How are you 691 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: navigating your post running life, because that was kind of 692 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: your big project. 693 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 4: It was one of my big problems. 694 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm actually really grateful that it was not 695 00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 2: like my only mattering project. Well partly because I don't know, 696 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 2: there's so many other wonderful aspects of life, but also 697 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 2: because it would have been a lot to lose all 698 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 2: at once. But it was a mattering project, and I 699 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,839 Speaker 2: definitely thought about it a lot as I read this 700 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 2: book and kind of made think about the loss a 701 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 2: little bit more. But all that said, I mean, things. 702 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 4: Are pretty good. 703 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 2: Like in some ways, there are days that I am 704 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 2: sort of glad that I don't have the pressure of 705 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 2: that I was putting on myself previously, and then there's 706 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 2: other days when I'm so jealous when I hear my 707 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,800 Speaker 2: friends talk about training for races, or even my husband 708 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 2: who is going to be running a marathon this April, 709 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 2: and I absolutely I am like very happy for him 710 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,839 Speaker 2: in doing it. But it's bittersweet to watch someone else 711 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 2: get to have that fun that I was having. But 712 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 2: day by day I'm good. I'm enjoying pilates. I Hey, 713 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 2: I moved up to level two at club. I met 714 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 2: my one of my twenty twenty six goals. So it's 715 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 2: fun to channel it into some other pursuits that are 716 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 2: more friendly to what my heart has going on. And 717 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,319 Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, if I was going to lose one 718 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 2: mattering project, that was probably like an okay one I 719 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,359 Speaker 2: let go off well, and. 720 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,760 Speaker 1: You found with that you like to be moving towards 721 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: something like you don't want to just like go do 722 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,439 Speaker 1: occasional strength workouts or something. 723 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 3: You like to move forward with things. 724 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 2: I mean to move forward with all things. And it 725 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,760 Speaker 2: doesn't have to be in some like oh I'm winning 726 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 2: in anything. It's just more like, oh, you know, I'm 727 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 2: progressing and in whatever I'm doing, whether it's athletic or 728 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 2: playing piano, and okay, I'm going to learn all the 729 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 2: songs in this book or whatever. I think that's just 730 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,319 Speaker 2: part of my personality and I'm going with it. 731 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the singing is definitely that for me. 732 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: I love working toward difficult concert. The music kind of 733 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: gets into your brain as you learn more and more 734 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,399 Speaker 1: of it. You don't see at the beginning how you're 735 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: going to learn this music, and yet you do. You 736 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: always do, and it becomes much a part of you 737 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: by the time we're doing the performance. 738 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:52,359 Speaker 3: So yeah, I can see how that would be. 739 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 4: Do you think your sonnets too? 740 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:54,720 Speaker 3: My sonnets? Maybe? 741 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: I mean the sonnets is something I enjoy doing as well, 742 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,360 Speaker 1: and I have kept going forward with that lines a 743 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: day for and you. 744 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 2: Must feel like it's like developed, like your skills at 745 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 2: creating them or sometimes. 746 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 1: I mean it's the ones that I think are really like, 747 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 1: I really like those are more random. I feel like 748 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: something will seize me and I'll write this so on 749 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: it and I'll be like, oh, yeah, I really like 750 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 1: that one. I think the more okay ones like good okay, 751 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 1: like I've sort of learned better how to do that. 752 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: There's still terrible ones in there here and there, you 753 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 1: know that. 754 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,799 Speaker 2: I but I can see how the singing would have 755 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 2: the same kind of arc as running, especially because it's 756 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 2: like a race, Like you're like I have this target 757 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 2: date and I want to achieve this and that, and 758 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 2: with you, it's like I need to master this complicated 759 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 2: thing and then I have the performance, and then I 760 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 2: get to celebrate, and then I get to start a 761 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:40,279 Speaker 2: new present one. 762 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally makes sense. 763 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: Oh sorry anyone. Well, we've been talking the mattering instinct 764 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,319 Speaker 1: and I think our first philosophy professor interview on this. 765 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: We bring you all sorts of things on Best of 766 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,879 Speaker 1: Both Worlds here, but we will be back next week 767 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: with more on making work and life fit together. 768 00:42:58,160 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening. 769 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 2: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com 770 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 2: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you. 771 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 1: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This 772 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: has been the Best of Both Worlds podcasts. Please join 773 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: us next time for more on making work and life 774 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:17,240 Speaker 1: work together.