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Speaker 1: Visit exacsciences dot com to learn more.

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Speaker 2: This Republican senator can tell you that I am getting

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Speaker 2: the calls that I'm sure all of my Republican colleagues

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Speaker 2: are that are saying, as a Republican, your job is

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Speaker 2: to line up with the president. Why are you even

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Speaker 2: questioning any of this? Why are you even questioning this?

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Speaker 2: And I say, well, because I'm a United States Senator.

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Speaker 2: I swore an oath to the Constitution, not to the President,

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Speaker 2: and so I know what my responsibilities are under Article one.

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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is Next Question.

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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kirk and this is a very

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Speaker 1: special edition of Next Question. This episode is coming to

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Speaker 1: you from Washington, DC, in fact, the home of Senator

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Speaker 1: Lisa Murkowski. She is one of the most independent voices

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Speaker 1: in the US Senate and isn't afraid to take a

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Speaker 1: stand even when it's at odds with her own party.

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Speaker 1: She has written a new book called Far from Home.

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Speaker 1: An Alaskan Senator faces the extreme climate of Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: And there is plenty to talk about, not only the book,

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Speaker 1: but what's happening in Washington and in this country. Senator

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Speaker 1: mccowski is so good to see you. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: inviting us into your home.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you, thank you for making the track down.

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Speaker 2: This is where I plant myself when I'm here in

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Speaker 2: d C and not back in Alaska.

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Speaker 1: And this is where your dad lives.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So tell people.

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Speaker 1: About your dad, because for some of a certain age

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Speaker 1: they might not know who he is.

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Speaker 2: Well, he came to the Senate in nineteen eighty riding

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Speaker 2: the coattails of Ronald Reagan. My dad had been in

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Speaker 2: the banking business in Alaska for basically his whole professional life.

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Speaker 2: He had attempted one run at the House of Representatives

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy, who was actually defeated by Congressman Nick Beggage.

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Speaker 2: Kind of sounds like deja vous all over again. Some

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Speaker 2: people say, are there other political families in Alaska, Murkowski's

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Speaker 2: and the Beggages. We laugh about it, but there is

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Speaker 2: some history there. So anyway, my dad was a banker

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Speaker 2: and chose to run for the United States Senate in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty wins and served in the Senate for over

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Speaker 2: twenty years. And then I decided that it was time

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Speaker 2: to come back home, time to return to Alaska, and

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Speaker 2: so he ran for governor and served as governor for

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Speaker 2: one term, and it was that vacancy that was created.

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Speaker 2: Then he had two more years in his term when

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Speaker 2: he ran for governor. And so my story, my political story,

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Speaker 2: kind of begins then in two thousand and two when

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Speaker 2: he made probably the most dangerous political decision in appointing

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Speaker 2: me to fill the final years of his term.

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Speaker 1: And you were not and to it right. So I

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Speaker 1: was ninety years old, you said, no way.

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Speaker 2: I was smart enough to know that.

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Speaker 1: Dad, this is called nepotism. You know, you didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be the original nepho baby.

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Speaker 2: I did not. And besides that, I had a really

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Speaker 2: nice life back home. My husband and I were living

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Speaker 2: the life in Anchorage. We had two great kids. There

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Speaker 2: were young young guys at the time, little boys, Nick

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Speaker 2: and Matt, and I was living my political dream, which

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Speaker 2: was to be in the Alaska legislature. I was a

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Speaker 2: House representative for a small district in Anchorage, Alaska.

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Speaker 1: You've been head of the PTA.

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Speaker 2: That was my political launch was the PTA at my

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Speaker 2: son's elementary school. It was a Title I school, so

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Speaker 2: we had all kinds of challenges and it allowed me

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Speaker 2: to kind of get my feet wet into doing some

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Speaker 2: really good community things that made me feel good about

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Speaker 2: what we were doing for other people, and it made

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Speaker 2: a difference. It made a difference, and I think about

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Speaker 2: that kind of as my initial political grounding and why

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Speaker 2: you do the things that you do Because I was working,

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Speaker 2: I was raising kids, I had a life, and to

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Speaker 2: take on an extra layer of responsibility was like, oh

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Speaker 2: do I need to do this?

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Speaker 1: But pretty daunty, right, But your dad kind of guilted

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Speaker 1: you into it.

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Speaker 2: You know. I come from a family where it's you're

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Speaker 2: supposed to contribute. I think I've got a pretty good

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Speaker 2: work ethic, and I think it comes from from my parents,

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Speaker 2: who who just had good principled work ethic. We worked

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Speaker 2: together as a family, but there was also how do

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Speaker 2: you give back? How do you give back? To your communities.

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Speaker 2: So you can give back as a PTA president working

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Speaker 2: for the kids. You can give back in political office

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Speaker 2: by saying I can make a difference for little my

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Speaker 2: little district.

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Speaker 1: Insue. By the way, I want to mention was a

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Speaker 1: big family. I didn't realize how many kids run your family.

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Speaker 2: We didn't think that it was that big at the time.

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Speaker 2: There were six kids and great family. Really, my brothers

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Speaker 2: and my sister, my brothers and sisters, we are the

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Speaker 2: tightest of friends to this day, and I think it's

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Speaker 2: because of that, because of ken of the we work together,

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Speaker 2: we play together as a family, and that made really really,

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Speaker 2: really strong, strong bond.

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Speaker 1: Tell me again, though, how your dad, I read this,

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Speaker 1: convinced you. He basically was disappointed when you were hesitant, right.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think he didn't understand why I would not

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Speaker 2: want it. Certainly, being in the United States Senate very prestigious,

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Speaker 2: and he had really done his due diligence. I think

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Speaker 2: there was a list of about twenty five people on

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Speaker 2: that list, some notable people that people even outside the

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Speaker 2: state of Alaska had recognized. Sarah Palin was on the list,

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Speaker 2: but I was on the list as well, and I

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Speaker 2: kind of thought it was almost a gratuitous thing. And

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Speaker 2: he said, no, others have suggested your name, and so

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Speaker 2: I want to know if you want to be included

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Speaker 2: in the mix. And I said, look, you've got great

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Speaker 2: names on the list. I am not your pick. And

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Speaker 2: long and short of this is we kind of went

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Speaker 2: back and forth over a period of a month and

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Speaker 2: a half and he said, I keep coming back to you.

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Speaker 2: I want to know if you will consider it, and

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Speaker 2: I said, no, I don't want to leave me alone.

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Speaker 2: And then he plays the guilt card. He said, you

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Speaker 2: love our state. You know you could make a difference,

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Speaker 2: and you have an obligation to your state to try

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Speaker 2: to make it better. So think about it. And so

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Speaker 2: you know, when you lay that on, it's like, okay,

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Speaker 2: I'll think about it. But then period of weeks go

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Speaker 2: by and I'm not hearing anything. So I figure, of fufta,

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Speaker 2: I'm in the clear. I don't have to do this.

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Speaker 2: I can stay focused on my life in Juno as

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Speaker 2: a legislator and my life at home in Anchorage with

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Speaker 2: my family. And December eighteenth, I'm in the barbershop with

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Speaker 2: the boys, getting their haircut so they look good for

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Speaker 2: the Christmas pictures and I get this telephone call from

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Speaker 2: my dad and he's like, hey, did you get did

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Speaker 2: you get the FedEx package? I'm like what? Anyway, he

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Speaker 2: had recalled a conversation from years ago when we were

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Speaker 2: sitting around at campfire and he brought out a pair

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Speaker 2: of really not very attractive knitted socks, blue and gold,

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Speaker 2: looking like the state flag with little stars on him.

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Speaker 2: And I kind of joked with him about, gosh, where'd

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Speaker 2: you get those ugly socks? And he said, you know,

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Speaker 2: some constituent knitted them for me. And you know, this

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Speaker 2: is what you get when you're a United States senator.

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Speaker 2: And I said, WHOA, wouldn't that be great one day

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Speaker 2: to be a United States Senator so I could get

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Speaker 2: a Para Sox like that. Anyway, he sent me the

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Speaker 2: Paara Sox and that was when I said, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe I do have an obligation that is deeper than

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Speaker 2: what I'm doing in Geno. And so we said yes,

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Speaker 2: and here we are twenty three years later.

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Speaker 1: Meanwhile, I want to give some props to your mom

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Speaker 1: because he she is truly the smartest one in your family.

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Speaker 1: And is mom smart? She looked, you know, well, you know.

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Speaker 2: My dad was the big public figure right He was

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Speaker 2: the senator, he was the banker. She was the glue.

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Speaker 2: She made sure that when he called up at four

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Speaker 2: point thirty and said, I'm bringing home some folks from

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Speaker 2: out of town for dinner, she's already feeding six kids

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Speaker 2: and a husband who's been gone all day long, and

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Speaker 2: she doesn't miss a beat. She puts another four place

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Speaker 2: settings on an already big table and makes it happen.

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Speaker 1: And never complained ever.

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Speaker 2: Really, no, no, no, maybe once in a while, No,

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Speaker 2: not even not even. My mom is probably the least

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Speaker 2: athletically inclined person out there, and you know what, she

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Speaker 2: would be there with us when we would go, when

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Speaker 2: we go do our downhill skiing trek, when we hiked

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Speaker 2: the chill Cooot trail. She doesn't like to get her

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Speaker 2: her head underwater, but by gosh, she'll everything else in

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Speaker 2: the water with us. And she is just such an

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Speaker 2: extraordinary woman. My folks are both ninety two now and

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Speaker 2: they are dang independent and health and good health.

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Speaker 1: But it's so lucky.

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Speaker 2: I am so blessed. My family is blessed.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like Alaska was such a fun place to

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Speaker 1: grow up. And you're from a pretty small town, right, Senator. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I've never been to Alaska, but it must just

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Speaker 1: be so beautiful. And I know in your book you

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Speaker 1: write about really your heart is in Alaska and when

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Speaker 1: you go there, you know your home and just the

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Speaker 1: beautiful surroundings. What was that like. I know you don't

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Speaker 1: know any differently, but wow, you're jealous.

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Speaker 2: Well, and yeah, I said, I'm blessed with my family.

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Speaker 2: I am blessed with the extraordinary state that I live in.

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Speaker 2: Is it is so different every area I grew up

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Speaker 2: in southeastern Alaska, where it's it's small little island communities

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Speaker 2: with massive trees and the cliffs that go straight up

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Speaker 2: and then down into the ocean. The wildness, the rawness,

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Speaker 2: the softness. At the same time, there's something different about Alaska.

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Speaker 2: The air smells cleaner and more pure. The color of

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Speaker 2: the sky is richer, the trees smell differently, the flowers

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Speaker 2: are more intense in their colors. It's just kind of

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Speaker 2: it is a land of extremes and it's harsh at

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Speaker 2: the same time. But that beauty is something that is

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Speaker 2: just difficult to describe, and I never ever get tired

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Speaker 2: of it. We raised our boys in Anchorage, and we

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Speaker 2: lived in this part of town, an old part of town.

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Speaker 2: Sits above the hill, right overlooking downtown, so we're really

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Speaker 2: close into everything that's going on. The railroad tracks are

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Speaker 2: right below us. The military base is right behind us.

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Speaker 2: But every day I would drive over the bridge and

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Speaker 2: you look out and here's the same mountain range that's

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Speaker 2: been there since time immemorial.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: And my boys recalled me calling them the oh my

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Speaker 2: gosh mountains because same view every day, and I'd look

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Speaker 2: over and it's say, oh my gosh, it's so beautiful.

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Speaker 2: It never gets old. People are talking on the radio Latasha. Oh,

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Speaker 2: by the way, d Nali's out today, Like what is

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Speaker 2: that all about? Well, the mountain is so majestic today,

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Speaker 2: and the sky is so clear that the mountain's out today.

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Speaker 2: It's an amazing place. It makes me smile. But what

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Speaker 2: is more important to my day ja here in Washington,

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Speaker 2: d C. Is how when I am home, I am

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Speaker 2: filled up because this place can deplete you, it can

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Speaker 2: suck everything out of you. And I get on that

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Speaker 2: plane and you know, eleven to twelve hours later, four

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Speaker 2: hours time difference, four thousand miles, I'm home and I

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Speaker 2: feel it, and it's my attitude that lives. I feel

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Speaker 2: like I can breathe better. I just fill everything up

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Speaker 2: so that when I come back here on that Monday,

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Speaker 2: I got room to go, I got gas in my tanks.

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Speaker 2: And it really makes a difference.

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Speaker 1: Have you finally adjusted to life in the nation's capital,

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Speaker 1: because you write about initially feeling this was an utterly

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Speaker 1: foreign world and moments, I mean days when you felt

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Speaker 1: profound loneliness. Have you gotten used to it?

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Speaker 2: I think I've gotten used to it? Have I Have

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Speaker 2: I liked it?

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Speaker 1: No? Really, I grew up near here, so this is

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Speaker 1: sort of my hometown and it's not Alaska, granted. But

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Speaker 1: there's some nice things about.

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Speaker 2: Oh there are, and there are some beautiful things about it.

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Speaker 2: In fact, COVID was really interesting that time period when

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Speaker 2: I was I was stuck here. I wasn't flying back

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Speaker 2: and forth. My husband was Alaska. I was pretty much

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Speaker 2: pretty much on my own work in my own little

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Speaker 2: office here by myself. But I would make myself go

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Speaker 2: out for long walks and just appreciate the beauty of

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Speaker 2: the spring in Washington, d C. And the architecture. I

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Speaker 2: loved looking at the different doors, what color they were painted.

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Speaker 2: It is beautiful, but it's still not home. And even

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Speaker 2: though we've lived in this home for for years now,

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Speaker 2: it is still not home my home. When people say

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Speaker 2: are you going home, I mean that home back in Alaska.

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Speaker 1: You've had, as you said, a very long career as

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Speaker 1: a senator, but there was a pivotal moment for you

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Speaker 1: that I think perhaps you see it as before and after,

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Speaker 1: and that was in twenty ten when you lost the

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Speaker 1: Republican primary to Joe Miller, who was a Tea Party

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Speaker 1: back candidate. But instead of stepping aside, you launched an

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Speaker 1: historic writing campaign and against yach you won. And Courtney,

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Speaker 1: my producer, and I were talking, No, I don't have

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Speaker 1: one fact. We were going to see if you had

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Speaker 1: any extras I do.

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Speaker 2: This is what Vern did. He turned the plastic band

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Speaker 2: into gold. Oh that is so cool, so fill it in,

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Speaker 2: write it in.

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Speaker 1: So basically, you had bracelets made or someone made bracelets.

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Speaker 2: Cover bracelets because strong bracelets.

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Speaker 1: Right. They wanted everyone to make sure they spelled your

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Speaker 1: name correctly.

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Speaker 2: Right, they needed to spell the name correctly in a

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Speaker 2: write in. But you also had to make sure that

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Speaker 2: you filled in the little bubble next to the line,

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Speaker 2: the line said right in. My name was nowhere on

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Speaker 2: a ballot. That's kind of scary you going in. It's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm a for election, but my name is nowhere. And

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Speaker 2: it was just a line and it said right in.

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Speaker 2: And if you wrote my name in and you spelled

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Speaker 2: it perfectly, but you failed to fill in the bubble,

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Speaker 2: it didn't count.

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Speaker 1: It took a lot of confidence to do that, didn't it, Senator.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it could have ended in sort of humiliation,

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Speaker 1: but it didn't. You won. What gave you the courage

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Speaker 1: to do that?

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Speaker 2: Well, my brother said, Lisa, you know, what you're trying

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Speaker 2: to do is next to impossible. There was a right

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Speaker 2: successful rite in nineteen fifty four with strom Thurman different circumstances.

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Speaker 2: Murkowski is not easy to spell. The only way that

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Speaker 2: you can prevail is if you are an evangelist with

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Speaker 2: a cause. Need to believe that this can be real

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Speaker 2: in order to make this happen. And the only way

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Speaker 2: that people can believe is if you believe yourself that

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Speaker 2: it can happen. And I don't know which came first,

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Speaker 2: because it was considered to be a fool's errand in

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Speaker 2: the eyes of most people, in Washington, d C. To

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Speaker 2: try to do a campaign. The professionals, the consultants were

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Speaker 2: all gone, the pollsters were gone. When the Republican Party

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Speaker 2: said Republican Primary says, this is your Republican nominee, people

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Speaker 2: went with Joe Miller. I can't fault them for that.

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Speaker 2: That's what happens around here. I get it. And so

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Speaker 2: we were going to have to do this on our own.

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Speaker 2: And the money wasn't going to flow because nobody's going

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Speaker 2: to give money to somebody that's on a fool's errand.

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Speaker 2: And so it was Alaska that had to make the commitment.

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Speaker 2: And when they started, they random people, strangers on a

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Speaker 2: bike stopping in the middle of the street, the janitor

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Speaker 2: rolling the garbage can through the airport stopping me and saying,

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Speaker 2: you got to give me an opportunity to vote for you.

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Speaker 2: You have to do this for me. It made me

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Speaker 2: believe that we could do this, that we could do

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Speaker 2: the impossible.

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Speaker 1: And then when you won, how did that liberate you?

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Speaker 1: How did that make you believe more in yourself and

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Speaker 1: your own conscience? Because it was a turning point, wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it was pivotal in so many ways. Yes, It

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Speaker 2: was historic from an election perspective, right in terms of

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Speaker 2: what Alaskans had done. One hundred and three thousand Alaskans

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Speaker 2: had been taught how to not only participate in this

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Speaker 2: ride in election, but to do so in a way

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Speaker 2: that was legible enough so that the courts backed up

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Speaker 2: the counting, because, believe it or not, even a correct

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Speaker 2: spelling was being challenged by my opponent. If there was

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Speaker 2: an exclamation point at the end of Lisa Murkowski or

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Speaker 2: one that was really offensive to me, somebody had put

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Speaker 2: a heart instead of dotting the eye, they wanted to

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Speaker 2: challenge that. I'm sorry, that's voter intent is pretty clear

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Speaker 2: that I think that they really wanted to support me anyway.

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Speaker 2: It was a turning point for me in understanding who

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Speaker 2: I really worked for. The Republican Party did not return

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Speaker 2: me to the Senate. It was not the Republicans of Alaska.

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Speaker 2: It was this wild, crazy mix of Republicans and Democrats,

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Speaker 2: conservatives and liberals, Independents, Greens, libertarians, people who say it's

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Speaker 2: none of your damn business what my party is. These

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Speaker 2: were the people that took a risk, who said I'm

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Speaker 2: not throwing away my vote by doing this. This is

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Speaker 2: a very proactive action on my part to say who

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Speaker 2: I want. There was no I'm going to pick the

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Speaker 2: lesser of two evils. It was a statement of conviction

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Speaker 2: and intentional, absolutely intentional in every way. And that is

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Speaker 2: so freeing when you have when you have this, many

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Speaker 2: Alaskans across the board say I don't care what the

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Speaker 2: party has said. My choice is. I want to have

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Speaker 2: a choice, and she is my choice. And that was

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Speaker 2: very freeing, and that continues to be kind of my

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Speaker 2: entry point to a focus that says, I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to be looking to the Republican talking points. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to evaluate this on whether or not these policies work

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Speaker 2: best for Alaskans.

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Speaker 1: You have developed a reputation for being an independent thinker,

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Speaker 1: someone who is interested in bipartisan problem solving, and because

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Speaker 1: of this, you and your colleague Susan Collins of Maine

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Speaker 1: often find yourself the deciding votes on closely divided legislation

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Speaker 1: or high profile confirmations. How much pressure do you feel

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Speaker 1: because of that?

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Speaker 2: You know there's pressure, and I suppose that I put

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Speaker 2: that pressure on me because I am evaluating. I'm being

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Speaker 2: open in trying to determine the right direction I suppose

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Speaker 2: if I wanted to remove that pressure, I could very

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Speaker 2: easily just tow the party line not have to really

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Speaker 2: think through the pros and cons or whether or not

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Speaker 2: you know how it's going to look if I vote

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Speaker 2: with the Democrats on something, how it's going to look

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Speaker 2: when I vote against the president on something. I could

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Speaker 2: very easily remove that pressure. But I don't think that's

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Speaker 2: why Alaskan sent me back. I think they sent me

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Speaker 2: back not only in twenty ten, but when I ran

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Speaker 2: again in twenty sixteen and won, and in twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: two and one. I think they sent me back because

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Speaker 2: they wanted me to represent them. And so do I

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Speaker 2: like the pressure?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: No, no, I could. I could have a much more.

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Speaker 2: I could have my evenings free instead of all that

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Speaker 2: stuff sitting over there in the corner. That's all my

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Speaker 2: homework just for the weekend. I could make my life

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Speaker 2: much easier. But I don't think that's what Alaskans expected me.

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Speaker 1: When was the most pressure exerted on you in terms

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Speaker 1: of a vote?

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Speaker 2: And again, keep in mind, there is external pressure that comes,

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Speaker 2: whether it's from your constituents, maybe from the administration, and

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Speaker 2: then there is the pressure that you place on yourself, right.

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Speaker 2: I describe in the book during the first impeachment where

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Speaker 2: there is a very arcane inside baseball process going on

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Speaker 2: in this Senate with regards to calling witnesses and the

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Speaker 2: role that Chief Justice John Roberts was going to be

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Speaker 2: placed in. So much of that pressure that I describe

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Speaker 2: was my own internal conflict. I don't think most people

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Speaker 2: were viewing that in a way where I need to

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Speaker 2: I need to call, I need to write, I need

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Speaker 2: to protest, I need to do something. That was pressure

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Speaker 2: on me. I think clearly with with Kavanaugh, that was

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Speaker 2: a vote where there was certainly pressure coming from Alaskans,

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Speaker 2: pressure coming from the administration, pressure coming from my conference.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of external pressure there, and that

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Speaker 2: was that was hard. That was a very very difficult

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Speaker 2: vote vote for me.

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Speaker 1: What kind of pressure from the administration did you experience? Well?

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Speaker 2: I did not, you know, I didn't get a call

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Speaker 2: from the from the President of the United States saying Lisa,

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Speaker 2: you have to you have to do this or then that.

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Speaker 2: I think I think not only folks in the administration,

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Speaker 2: but the people that I work with know that I

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Speaker 2: don't respond well to that. I've worked with Leader McConnell

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Speaker 2: for a long time when he was our majority leader,

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Speaker 2: and I think he realized that giving me more information

398
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Speaker 2: was probably more persuasive to me than saying you have

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Speaker 2: to stick with the team.

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Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you receive threats that if

401
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Speaker 1: you didn't vote for Kavanaugh's confirmation, false allegations would be

402
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Speaker 1: made against your sons. That's pretty nasty business.

403
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Speaker 2: Nasty, and those are the things that keep you awake

404
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Speaker 2: at night. I can handle the political pressure, right.

405
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Speaker 1: Where are those threats coming from?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's it's stupid, random stuff, whether it's you know,

407
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Speaker 2: somebody who calls in anonymously and doesn't even have doesn't

408
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Speaker 2: want to talk to a human being, They just want

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Speaker 2: to leave a nasty voice message on the phone. We

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Speaker 2: report all of the threats, whether they come in by

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Speaker 2: phone or by email or by text. But those things,

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Speaker 2: whether they are whether they're just whether they're just designed

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Speaker 2: to be nasty, you can't just say, well, don't think

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Speaker 2: anything of it. That weighs on you, and that's.

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Speaker 1: Heard ultimately, and we'll talk about the political tenor of

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Speaker 1: our times in a moment. But why did you ultimately

417
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Speaker 1: decide not to vote to confirm Breck Kavan. I know

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Speaker 1: that you write about how you knew what this would

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Speaker 1: mean for survivors of sexual assault, and that he had

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Speaker 1: become when you met with him, defensive and had no

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Speaker 1: self awareness. Was there a deciding factor that made you

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Speaker 1: say I cannot support this person for the Supreme Court?

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Speaker 2: So I think the first the first thing, the first

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Speaker 2: point that really that really caused me to say I

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Speaker 2: don't think that I can support him, was how he

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Speaker 2: had responded in committee with what I felt was a

427
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Speaker 2: very intemperate attitude in response to questions. I know he

428
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Speaker 2: was under pressure. I know he felt that he was

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Speaker 2: being unjustly accused. That's what he shared with me. I

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00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 2: get that, and any one of us if you feel

431
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Speaker 2: that you have been falsely condemned, you've got a right

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Speaker 2: to defend yourself. But he was he was being considered

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Speaker 2: for a seat on the highest court in the land,

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Speaker 2: one of nine, and as hard as those questions would

435
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: be to him, as personal and emotional as they may be,

436
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 2: as a judge and a future justice of the Supreme Court,

437
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: he's got to hold it together, right.

438
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: But apparently he was encouraged to get angry by the

439
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: President himself and what.

440
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 2: Does that say? What does that say? One of the

441
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: things that is part of my criteria, in addition to

442
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 2: judicial temperament, which was important, is free from bias, free

443
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: from free from these external pressures. So now the president

444
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: who has appointed you is going to tell you how

445
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: you should behave or should should not behave. I want

446
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: to know that as a justice, as one of nine,

447
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: you are not looking at who appointed you. You are

448
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: not looking to political fallout. You are not looking to

449
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 2: anything other than fidel to the law and to our constitution.

450
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 2: And so that that worried me. That worried me because

451
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: he seemed to respond to that like you need to

452
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 2: be more aggressive.

453
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: How much blowback did you get, Senator when you did

454
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: not vote to confirm him?

455
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: You know, I was You're worried about things like that.

456
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: What's the response going to be from my colleagues and

457
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: from your constituent and from well, from those you're working for.

458
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: But as far as my colleagues, I will tell you

459
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: it was immediately after that vote, Mitch McConnell came up

460
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 2: to me as the majority leader and said, you know, Lisa,

461
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: you did what you you felt you had to do.

462
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 2: You're still on my team. There may have been colleagues

463
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 2: who who vehemently disapproved, but it's not like I was blackbald,

464
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: or you know, she needs to be kicked off of

465
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: the conference. That did not happen. I think there is

466
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: a respect that we we each have to make difficult

467
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 2: decisions and we have to live with them. Maybe some felt, Okay,

468
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 2: this was a big enough decision that her constituents are

469
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: not going to support, that she won't make it through

470
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: the next election. That did not prove to be the case. Alaskans.

471
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: Alaskans are very are very cognizant of some of the

472
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: challenges that we face in our state when it comes

473
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: to matters of domestic violence, sexual assault. I wish that

474
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 2: I could tell you that we're turning the corner and

475
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: eliminating this within our own society. We're making a headway,

476
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: but we're not doing enough. And I think that there

477
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: were concerns from many about whether or not a Justice

478
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 2: Kavanaugh would be able to understand the lived experiences of

479
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: many women, not only Lee and Alaska, about around the country.

480
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: What if there were a way to reduce cancer desks

481
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Speaker 1: by half in the next twenty five years, What if

482
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Speaker 1: it were the future our children, our loved ones, our

483
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: world could actually wake up to. This is the future.

484
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Speaker 1: Exact Sciences works toward every day, but they believe it's possible.

485
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Speaker 1: Exact Sciences is a dedicated team of cancer fighters united

486
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Speaker 1: by a purpose to help eradicate cancer by preventing it,

487
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Speaker 1: detecting it earlier, and guiding personalized treatment. They bring together

488
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Speaker 1: the best and visionary thinking and scientific rigor to create tests,

489
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Speaker 1: including COLI guard and Anchotype DX that inspire life changing action.

490
00:31:49,840 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: Visit exactsciences dot com to learn more. You mentioned President Trump,

491
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: so I want to read something you wrote about him

492
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: in your book Far from Home. Trump wants to be

493
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: seen as special and uniquely capable. He seems to have

494
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: a deep psychological need for that kind of approval. In fact,

495
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: he has opposite qualities. In my dealings with him as president,

496
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: it was evident that he could not have planned his

497
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: own rise or engineered the transformation of the Supreme Court.

498
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: He isn't that smart, As former Attorney General Bill Barr

499
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: has said, Trump lacks the ability for strategic or linear thinking.

500
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: He isn't able to form or follow through on complex plans. Instead,

501
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: Trump was extraordinarily lucky. He appeared at a moment when

502
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: Americans had lost touch with the civic virtues that hold

503
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: us together as a nation. A movement had arisen among

504
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: Americans who were angry that the government wasn't representing them,

505
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: dissatisfied by agencies ranging from the IRS to the federal

506
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,959
Speaker 1: lands agencies to the federal courts, people who felt no

507
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: one listened to them. Finally, with Trump, had someone who

508
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: spoke loudly about the unfairness and dissatisfaction they felt. Trump

509
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: did not create the situation. He hit like a lightning bolt,

510
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: which normally is a momentary and ineffective flash, but this

511
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: time it touched tender, dry ground and ignited a landscape

512
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: prime for a spreading wildfire. I was surprised how blunt

513
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: you were about Trump's mediocrity, or I guess, the qualities

514
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: he's lacking, particularly given so many of your Republican colleagues

515
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: just fall over themselves flattering him. Why did you decide

516
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: to be so frank?

517
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you that when we were writing

518
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: the book, I was saying it in real time, so

519
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 2: I was probably saying this back in twenty twenty when

520
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but I didn't think that

521
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 2: we would have a second Trump administration. I'm just being

522
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 2: very frank with you and saying, you know, maybe I

523
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 2: thought that he was gone from this scene, and so

524
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 2: you weren't that worried, and you can say things I

525
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: will tell you. I will tell you that whether it is,

526
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: President Trump is now more strategic and more prepared, and

527
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 2: I think he has learned a lot from the first

528
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: administration where you come in and it's like, Okay, now

529
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: I'm president, and you know these people are I'm told

530
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: these people are all good. People are going to give

531
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: me good, good advice and guidance. And he didn't really

532
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 2: didn't really like some of that advice and guidance because

533
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 2: they might have challenged him a little bit. Now we

534
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: are in a second Trump administration where I fully believe

535
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: that the Biden years were spent by President Trump planning

536
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 2: for this administration, working with people that encouraged him every

537
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: step of the way, and again who would reinforce the

538
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 2: direction rather than challenge a direction. And so I think

539
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: you have an entirely different administration this time around, and

540
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 2: I think you have a president that is much more

541
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: keenly focused on what it is that he wants to achieve.

542
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 2: I don't think that he had that targeted and directed

543
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 2: focus first time around, or if he did, he wasn't

544
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: quite sure how to implement it. I think it's different now.

545
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: Well, many people think because of that, he is far

546
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: more dangerous in his second term.

547
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 2: Do you I think he has already shown us in

548
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: the six months that he has been in the presidency

549
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 2: now that he is far more prepared to exert executive

550
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: powers independent of the Congress, with an administration that has

551
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 2: been directed. If you will that we're going to do this,

552
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 2: and if Congress comes along, that's great, but not as

553
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 2: keen on respecting that that divide between Article one Article two.

554
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 2: It's a different environment. I don't mean to be pushy here.

555
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 2: I am in your living room, Senator, but I don't

556
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 2: feel like you really answered the question. Do you think

557
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 2: he's more dangerous? Yes, he's taking more liberties, he's pushing

558
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 2: the envelope. Do you think he's it's dangerous what he's doing.

559
00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: It could be dangerous if if the Congress decides, if

560
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 2: the Republican majority in the House and Senate decide that

561
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 2: the ends justifies the means, and we're good with the

562
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: goals and so we're okay with how he is utilizing

563
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 2: emergency powers. If we are okay without checking him, then

564
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 2: I think, yes.

565
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: Yes, they haven't exactly done that. They haven't exactly No,

566
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: then they've turned to the courts, haven't they. I mean,

567
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 1: so Congress personally, I don't see a lot of profiles

568
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: and courage. I don't see a lot of people challenging him.

569
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: And you say, if isn't that happening already?

570
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: We are not. I would rather, I would rather challenge

571
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: us in the Congress to assert our role and our

572
00:37:52,160 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 2: responsibility than to just condemn the actions of the President

573
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 2: and get nowhere, we we have the ability. But you're

574
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 2: I'm not going to dispute your observation that we we

575
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 2: as a Congress have not stood up and said, wait

576
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: a minute. When it comes to tariffs, we have we

577
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: have a level of oversight here, and there's a small

578
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 2: bipartisan group that has come together to say there's a

579
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 2: process here, we should move by it. We should uh,

580
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 2: we should stand by it. We're going to have a

581
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: test coming up on recisions. We may have a test

582
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 2: coming up with war powers. This is where I think

583
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 2: you're you're going to see whether or not the extent

584
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: to which Congress is going to say, we've got a

585
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 2: we've got a very important role here. Yes you are

586
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 2: the president, Yes you are the executive, but we are

587
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 2: the check.

588
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: We have to be the check. We have not been

589
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: the check in my view, I think, and a lot

590
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: of people's views. People feel like you're fellow Republicans, you

591
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: all control everything, and you're rolling over basically pardon my

592
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 1: French kissing Donald Trump's ass, letting him get away with

593
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 1: whatever he wants to do, and can you explain why?

594
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: And I think maybe this brings us back to your

595
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: comment about fear and about retribution when you were speaking

596
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: in front of those tribal leaders and nonprofit people not

597
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: too long ago, as you know, Senator, that went viral,

598
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:42,240
Speaker 1: as they say, where you conceded that people are afraid

599
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: and they're afraid of retribution. And honestly, it's pathetic to me, so.

600
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: I think it needs to be understood.

601
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 1: Please.

602
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 2: There are, well, there are many many in my conference

603
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 2: who are absolutely in line with what the President is proposing,

604
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 2: with the policies, and I think because they are so

605
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 2: in line and in sync, there is this there is

606
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 2: this sense that basically my job as a cent their

607
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: job as a senator is to do whatever it is

608
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 2: that I need to do to help support him. And

609
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 2: so you are not seeing a questioning. You are not

610
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:44,760
Speaker 2: seeing people saying, well, you know, that's really our role here,

611
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 2: because again I think they support the goals of the president.

612
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: And believe me, believe me, every single one of us

613
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 2: as a well this Republican senator can tell you that

614
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: I am getting the calls that I'm sure all of

615
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 2: my Republican colleagues are that are saying, as a Republican,

616
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 2: your job is to line up with the president. Why

617
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 2: are you even questioning any of this? Why are you

618
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 2: even questioning this? And I say, well, because I'm a

619
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 2: United States Senator. I swore an oath to the Constitution,

620
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 2: not to the president, and so I know what my

621
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: responsibilities are under Article one. I know that.

622
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 1: And imagine you're getting some calls from people who are

623
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: also saying, do more. Why aren't you stopping him?

624
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 2: And the answer to the how do you stop your

625
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 2: duly elected president? You have to speak up. Okay, you've

626
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 2: noted that I do speak up. I don't speak up

627
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 2: on every occasion. I think we learned in the first

628
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 2: Trump administration that you could be top of the news

629
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 2: every single day if all you did was was respond

630
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: to comments that had come out of the White House,

631
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 2: that's not appropriate either. So choosing choosing the times to

632
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 2: speak out and how you speak out so that you

633
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 2: can still have a level of credibility is something that

634
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 2: I weigh, and that's that is important. Is there a

635
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 2: fear of retribution or retaliation? We live in a political world, right,

636
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 2: that's no great secret to anybody. When Donald Trump didn't like,

637
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 2: you know, my position on certain things, he even though

638
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 2: he was no longer president, then he says, you know,

639
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm going to find somebody to run against you.

640
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,800
Speaker 2: Basically he said, I'll find anybody with a pulse and

641
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 2: I'll be there in Alaska to support whoever that is.

642
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 2: And he carried through with that. He didn't win, his

643
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 2: candidate didn't win. But that was something that you look

644
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 2: at and you say, you know, this is the political

645
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 2: landscape that you're in. So if you're afraid of being

646
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: primaried because you have you have voted one way or

647
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 2: whatever it is that you did, that comes with the territory,

648
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 2: all right. I think what is what is of greater

649
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 2: concern to me and the reason why I made the

650
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 2: comment that I did in front of five hundred and

651
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: fifty folks from the nonprofit sector. When I was asked directly,

652
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: how do you respond to those people who say they're afraid?

653
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 2: I answered, honestly, we're all afraid. There is so much

654
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 2: uncertainty at this moment in time. This was this was

655
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 2: several months ago where it was the height of the

656
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 2: of the riffs of the This was the uh those

657
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: that were on probationary status and not knowing a on

658
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 2: a Friday, if you were going to have a job

659
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 2: on a Monday, being.

660
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 1: Told enforced by the way riffs.

661
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, but being told that the work that you've been

662
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 2: doing as a as a marine scientist, trying to work

663
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 2: on fisheries issues no longer has value.

664
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: But you meant more than that, didn't choose senator.

665
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 2: But let me no, let me let me continue, because

666
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 2: what was happening at the time, and to a certain extent,

667
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 2: is still happening. People's grants being terminated, not knowing whether

668
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: or not you're going to be able to keep the

669
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: women's shelter open because you're operating off of such thin margins.

670
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 2: And your grant comes in in a way that it's

671
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 2: literally eight month to.

672
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: Month clinical trials being stopped, cancer research, medical rights.

673
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 2: Happening did go on and on, and so what had

674
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 2: what was happening was uncertainty and fear about what was

675
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 2: going to happen. And what I wanted to underscore with

676
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 2: them was not only do I hear you, I get

677
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 2: it because I'm hearing from those who have this level

678
00:44:54,800 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 2: of uncertainty, but we also are experiencing the uncertain of

679
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 2: what is coming next because there is there is no

680
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: known path here. And those who are questioning, those who

681
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 2: are saying, I don't think it is within your legal

682
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 2: limitations to be terminating federal employees in this way. And

683
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 2: when you challenge that, the pushback that you get, the

684
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 2: the the well, I guess I'll just call it pushback

685
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: because that's what it is from not only those in

686
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: the administration, but those supporters who are like, wait, wait, wait,

687
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 2: you know why aren't you, why aren't you on President

688
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 2: Trump's team? Why are you questioning all this? We need

689
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 2: to get rid of these people. You know what, if

690
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 2: you need to reduce your forces, you can do it

691
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: in a way that recognizes the humanity of these people

692
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 2: who have been good public servants, and that was not

693
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,280
Speaker 2: being handled, and the law wasn't being handled, and so

694
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 2: so is their retaliation. Yeah, we saw it. I wasn't

695
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: making that word up because we had already seen by

696
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: that point in time, an executive order against two law

697
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 2: firms for what Because individuals in the firms had represented

698
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 2: on people from January sixth that the administration did not

699
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 2: think should be defended. And that to me is political

700
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 2: retaliation that has economic consequences for that firm. Right, why

701
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: do you do that? I can understand if you want

702
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 2: to do a review of an agency to determine whether

703
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 2: or not the funding has been appropriately directed. I can

704
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 2: understand if you need to, if you need to look

705
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 2: at a budget and say, do we need to have

706
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 2: this level of staffing in order to execute this? But

707
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 2: what we saw happening was not the norm and in

708
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 2: most many cases was not.

709
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: Okay, what are your constituents saying? And do you believe

710
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: that we are in the midst of a constitutional crisis.

711
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: I've had experts, you know, I've been doing interviews about

712
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: this for months, you know, because it didn't take long

713
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: for this thing with the law firms to happen and

714
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: suing TV networks and universities and universities, and on and on,

715
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: and many scholars I've interviewed have said that we are

716
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 1: in the midst of a constitutional crisis for months now.

717
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: I'm curious where you stand on that.

718
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: I was responding to a question a few days ago,

719
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 2: and we're talking about democracy, and I said, you know,

720
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 2: I've been in this enate now for a while, a

721
00:47:54,040 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 2: couple decades. I don't ever recall a time when there

722
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 2: has been more asked about the state of our democracy,

723
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 2: whether our democracy is still safe, And that in and

724
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,240
Speaker 2: of itself is telling you. You've asked a direct question,

725
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 2: are we in the midst of a constitutional crisis? And

726
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 2: we've seen the discussion all over the place in terms

727
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 2: of are we there, are we moving there? What do

728
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 2: we do to avert it? I think our reality is

729
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 2: is that we are we are recognizing that the institutions

730
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 2: that support our democracy here are being challenged. And I

731
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 2: take it back to what I was saying earlier about

732
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 2: our responsibility in the Congress. There are things that we

733
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 2: can't necessarily change about the judicial branch, and certain things

734
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 2: we can't change about the executive branch. These these are

735
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 2: things that are defined in our constitution. But how we

736
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 2: control ourselves in the legislative branch is something that we

737
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 2: have control over. We are if we are trending towards

738
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 2: constitutional meltdown. We have the ability as one of the

739
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 2: three equal, separate, but equal branches of government to weigh

740
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 2: in here and to try to write things. Is it possible.

741
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 2: I don't know. Some people have suggested it's gone too far.

742
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I do know that it is

743
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 2: worth fighting for. It's just worth fighting for. We have to.

744
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:41,760
Speaker 2: We don't have any other choice.

745
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: Where do you think we are? Do you think we're

746
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: veering towards this or do you think we're smack in

747
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: the middle of it? I mean, you're you see these

748
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: issues every day, you deal with it. You watch what's

749
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: happening when it comes to things like deportation, mass deportation.

750
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: You see what's happening when it comes to to you know,

751
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,399
Speaker 1: activating the National Guard and the Marines in California. I mean,

752
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: you are living, breathing all these things. I'm just reading

753
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:13,399
Speaker 1: about them. Where do you think we are? And how

754
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: worried on a scale of one to ten, are you

755
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: for democracy.

756
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 2: I think that there are some people have asked, you know,

757
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 2: are there any red lines where at that point we know,

758
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 2: I don't know that there's anything as clear cut as that,

759
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,720
Speaker 2: or whether you just edge closer and closer with different

760
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 2: decisions and determinations. But we've always we've always kind of

761
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 2: recognized that, Look, the executive is inherently political, the legislative

762
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 2: branch inherently political. We get that, but it's the judiciary.

763
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 2: It's the judiciary that's going to be that ultimate backstop there, right.

764
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: The problem, the problem that I see is that more

765
00:50:56,239 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 2: and more the courts are also being viewed as polite.

766
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 2: And if people stop believing in the courts, if people

767
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: stop believing that there's going to be justice there for

768
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: them because maybe I'm in maybe I'm an immigrant, you know,

769
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 2: maybe I'm maybe I'm transgender, if they stop believing that

770
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 2: there is no backstop to the to the very highly

771
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 2: politically charged legislative branch or the executive branch, then we're

772
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 2: in trouble as a democracy. And so how do we

773
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 2: address that? That's a problem. I kind of hint to

774
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 2: that in in the book, and I think that's part

775
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 2: of the struggles that I cite to when I'm talking

776
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 2: about the the Kavanaugh nomination. The role that the Senate

777
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 2: plays in the role of advice and consent is is

778
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 2: kind of one of our fundamental things that we're supposed

779
00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 2: to be doing right, and we've I think we have

780
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 2: strayed from the seriousness of that advice and consent to

781
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:12,879
Speaker 2: the point where now it's I'm going to consent as

782
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 2: long as the president who nominates that Supreme Court justice

783
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 2: is of my party, and I'm gonna I'm gonna look

784
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 2: away from anything that I might call into question it

785
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 2: is it is now become nothing more than a partisan

786
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 2: confirmation process.

787
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: Do you feel Republicans on the hell have abdicated their

788
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: responsibility to the country.

789
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 2: I'm when it comes to the courts, no, no, no, no, everything,

790
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm gonna. I'm just going to push back

791
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 2: a little bit here, because the Democrats did the exact

792
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 2: same thing as the Republicans are doing now when it

793
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 2: comes to allegiance to their president with nominations, whether it

794
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 2: is whether it's at the Supreme Court level or at

795
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 2: the at the district court level. It is frustrating to

796
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 2: me beyond no ends and so you know, we can

797
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 2: take potshots at the Republicans, but this is guilt on

798
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 2: all sides. This is an abdication of our role in

799
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 2: the advice and consent process to actually look at the

800
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 2: qualifications of the individuals and determine their fitness. And so,

801
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,840
Speaker 2: you know, and and then I could go off on

802
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 2: I'm very concerned about what I see to be the

803
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 2: politicization where now the American public looks at a decision

804
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,959
Speaker 2: that comes out of the out of the Supreme Court

805
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 2: right now, and if they don't like it, they say, well,

806
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 2: it's because of all those Biden no Obama judges, or

807
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 2: on the other hand, it's, well, we knew the outcome

808
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 2: because it was.

809
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: A Trump court.

810
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 2: You know. That's something that we've got to get away from.

811
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 2: And I kind of blame the media for that. It

812
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,280
Speaker 2: used to be that anytime you would see an elected

813
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 2: leader's name, you have an r D behind it, right,

814
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 2: I get it, But you should not. We should not

815
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 2: say every time you identify a judge a justice who

816
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 2: appointed him, stop politicizing it.

817
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 1: Do you think that, Joe Biden. I hear what you're saying,

818
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 1: because I've covered Supreme Court confirmations for as long, if

819
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,720
Speaker 1: not longer than you've been as Senator. And I totally

820
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 1: appreciate and understand what you're saying, But I guess my

821
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: question would be taking it out of the judiciary realm

822
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: and Supreme Court nominees and the whole confirmation process. Do

823
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: you believe that Joe Biden was as big a threat

824
00:54:56,719 --> 00:55:01,320
Speaker 1: to democracy as Donald Trump? Because I think many people

825
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: Senator would say on all fronts were living in unprecedented

826
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: times in terms of threats and challenges to our institutions,

827
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 1: to basic fundamental constitutional rights like due process. And I

828
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 1: feel like I know you pretty well at this point.

829
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,959
Speaker 1: You can't be okay with some of the stuff that's

830
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 1: going on.

831
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm not.

832
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 1: I'm not.

833
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 2: I wasn't okay with some of the things that went

834
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 2: on in the Biden administration. I didn't like a lot

835
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 2: of his policies. He did a lot of damage, I

836
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 2: think to Alaska's opportunities from a policy perspective. But I

837
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 2: didn't worry about threats to democracy. I did worry. I

838
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 2: get just as irritated with my colleagues on the other

839
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,359
Speaker 2: side of the aisle, with the Democrats, for what I

840
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 2: felt was just was just complete, you know, complete bowing

841
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:09,919
Speaker 2: down to whatever Biden wanted, what whoever you put in there.

842
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 2: There were some there were some people who just should

843
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 2: not have been included as part of a confirmable process,

844
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 2: and and they closed their eyes, just as the Republicans

845
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:26,839
Speaker 2: are doing on our side. But from an institutional perspective,

846
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,240
Speaker 2: I think that there were some there were some lines

847
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,800
Speaker 2: that under the Biden administration we just didn't see crossed.

848
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,280
Speaker 1: And we are under the Trump administration.

849
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 2: I think we are seeing I think we're seeing greater

850
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 2: pressure to the fidelity of the institutions by by the executive.

851
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 1: Yes, what are you most worried about when it comes

852
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: to the actions that have been taken less than six

853
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 1: months into his presidency by this administration?

854
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I am I am an institutionalist at heart,

855
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 2: and I care that that we function well. And I

856
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 2: think it's important for us as a country for the

857
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 2: public to believe that we are functioning well and we

858
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 2: are functioning in their best interests, because if they don't

859
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 2: believe that, if they don't feel that none of this works,

860
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 2: you know, is you can only govern with a consent

861
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 2: of the governed. And if we are failing here, how

862
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 2: do we make sure that the rule of law means

863
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 2: anything anymore? Where do you think it's being challenged the most?

864
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 2: The rule of law. I think the thing we're seeing

865
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 2: right at this moment in time is with some of

866
00:57:56,160 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 2: the immigration initiatives, that we're seeing a real, a real

867
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:05,959
Speaker 2: push in that regard in an effort to basically move

868
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 2: numbers to get as many people out of the country

869
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 2: as possible in a quick period of time. I think

870
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 2: some of the due process concerns, due process requirements are

871
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 2: being pushed, overlooked, overrun. I am sign me up to

872
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 2: get rid of the bad guys that are here illegally,

873
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 2: the ones that are really engaged in bringing about destruction

874
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 2: through drugs and trafficking, etc. But it seems like there's

875
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 2: just this massive push right now to track down just

876
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 2: as many numbers as we can and so taking somebody

877
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 2: who's been here for twenty years and has been working

878
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 2: hard every day, who is here illegally because the overstate

879
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 2: is VISA, but has been a contributor, a contributor ever since.

880
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 2: I'm not thinking that those need to be the first

881
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 2: ones to be sent back to a country that they

882
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 2: no longer have a connection.

883
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 1: To, because there are people who are going through the process,

884
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 1: who are being snatched and grabbed in courthouses all amongst

885
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 1: the country.

886
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 2: We're seeing it. And so it does to your question,

887
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 2: what area do I think we're seeing. We're seeing greater

888
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 2: pressure on certain principles of again democracy, fundamental due process.

889
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: Right, do you feel comfortable still being a Republican given

890
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: what's happened to your party with the really the complete

891
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 1: takeover by MAGA.

892
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 2: So I'm clearly not a mega Republican. I'm a Republican

893
00:59:56,040 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 2: that believes in the same kind of values that that

894
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 2: I signed on too when I was eighteen years old

895
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 2: and registered in terms of individual freedoms and a smaller

896
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 2: government and strong, strong defense, strong country. And so those

897
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 2: stay with me regardless of regardless of what goes on

898
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:23,919
Speaker 2: within within the party structure itself. And so I don't

899
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 2: get hung up on the label. I think other people do,

900
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 2: because labels are really convenient. When I just say I'm

901
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 2: I'm an independent, you know, a small eye, or I'm

902
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 2: a moderate, What does that mean if they know that

903
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 2: there's an R there, there are certain expectations, right, and

904
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 2: I think the expectations more and more are you look

905
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 2: exactly this way, that there is a Republican litmus test

906
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 2: or a Republican purity test. I don't pass that in

907
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 2: a lot of ways. What I'm trying to do is

908
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:00,160
Speaker 2: again be true to the values that I have, of

909
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 2: that I have long held. And uh again, I come

910
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 2: from a state where uh, that party label perhaps is

911
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:17,439
Speaker 2: not as as not a I don't know, Scarlet letter,

912
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's the right way to but

913
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 2: it's it's it's not it's not as big a deal.

914
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 2: It's it's what have you done to help us?

915
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 1: Having said that, you know, we see more moderate Republicans receding, retiring,

916
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 1: you know, the people who I think represent your branch

917
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 1: of the GOP.

918
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 2: It's hard.

919
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: Do you think that that will ever return? Or do

920
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 1: you think this more red meat, populous part of the

921
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 1: party is going to overtake it for good?

922
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know, but I do know

923
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 2: that if those that that dare to stand in the

924
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 2: middle don't continue to exist, If we say this is

925
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 2: too hard, if the only thing that happens in the

926
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 2: middle of the road is you become roadkill, then it's

927
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 2: pretty sure that you're not going to see that until

928
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 2: things get so extreme and so bad that there's something

929
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 2: that pushes everything towards the middle. And so I think

930
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 2: part of what I try to tell in this story

931
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 2: is that there is a place for moderation, There is

932
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 2: a place for collaboration and working together. That that's what

933
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 2: people want to see. They don't really want to see

934
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 2: the partisan bickering and the infighting and what didn't you

935
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:43,480
Speaker 2: get done? But what did you do? What did you build?

936
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 2: That's why I love the little piece about our work

937
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 2: with the infrastructure Bill and how a bipartisan group of

938
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 2: lawmakers not only built something I think that was good

939
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 2: for the country, but we had fun doing it because,

940
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, we were legislating. We were making something

941
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 2: happen that was going to matter for people where they lived,

942
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:05,439
Speaker 2: and it felt good. We don't we need to do

943
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 2: more of that and not less of that. And if

944
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 2: you are not willing to be there and be that participant,

945
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 2: be the man in the arena, then it's not going

946
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 2: to happen. And so you've got it's important to try

947
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 2: to provide a little bit of optimism instead of the

948
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 2: daily deluge of defeat. That's an interesting one.

949
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 1: That's very illiterate. It is very literally defeat. There's a book.

950
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:40,520
Speaker 2: There's a book waiting for you out there.

951
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter. Every morning with a

952
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and

953
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,

954
01:03:56,520 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. You

955
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 1: also write about January sixth and how terrifying that was.

956
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 1: I'm curious how you felt about the rioters on January

957
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:20,640
Speaker 1: sixth being quickly pardoned.

958
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:27,680
Speaker 2: Wrong. It's just wrong, And I said, so, people died,

959
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:34,000
Speaker 2: people died. Friends of mine who are Capitol Hill police

960
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:38,959
Speaker 2: talk about that day confidentially to me because they can't

961
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 2: they're not allowed to say anything publicly, they'd lose their job.

962
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 2: But they tell me of what they went through. That

963
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 2: was not That was not just a group of people

964
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 2: that got a little crazy. I call it an insurrection.

965
01:04:55,960 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 2: And so for those for those who did violence, who

966
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 2: for those who committed crimes to be pardoned a blanket

967
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 2: pardon practically, to me, no, that is wrong and unforgivably wrong.

968
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 1: You know, people contrast that with what's happening in Los Angeles,

969
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:24,640
Speaker 1: with mostly peaceful protests and activating the National Guard and

970
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 1: the Marines. I asked you this earlier, but I think

971
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:29,959
Speaker 1: we moved on to other topics. How do you feel

972
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 1: about the use of the Guard and the Marines in

973
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:33,919
Speaker 1: a situation like that.

974
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 2: Well, I'm one that thinks, you know, your National Guard,

975
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:43,520
Speaker 2: these are your state guardians, right and your governor is

976
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 2: the one that has that authority over them. I think

977
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 2: that there's a process there that we all expect that

978
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 2: if the President feels that additional additional enforcement needs to

979
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 2: be brought in, that they work with the governor. I

980
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 2: think it was I I feel that it was it

981
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:09,120
Speaker 2: was somewhat concerning that that the president didn't work with

982
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:14,000
Speaker 2: the governor. I just learned today just reading something that

983
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 2: that the courts have upheld the authority of the president

984
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:23,040
Speaker 2: in doing so because there apparently he had worked through

985
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 2: the state's adjutant General as opposed to the to the governor.

986
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:28,920
Speaker 2: So apparently there was some legal basis for.

987
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 1: Them that's being appealed.

988
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I hadn't heard whether they were going to

989
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:34,560
Speaker 2: appeal on that, but but it is, I mean, it

990
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 2: is something where there is an area where you can say,

991
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 2: all right, does the president have that level of authority.

992
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 2: I don't think that's the conversation that we need to

993
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 2: have here. That's going to be settled out one way

994
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 2: or another. But I do think that how we ensure

995
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 2: that our communities, our cities feel safe while still allowing

996
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 2: for respectful and peaceful protest when there's violence, when there

997
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 2: is when there is the destruction that we have seen

998
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:11,640
Speaker 2: in some of our communities, not just right now with

999
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 2: Los Angeles, but what we had seen some years ago

1000
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:17,480
Speaker 2: in Seattle and Portland and the violence in the destruction.

1001
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a situation that there is a

1002
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:28,440
Speaker 2: responsibility to ensure the safety of those who who are

1003
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:33,120
Speaker 2: in these areas. But can we can we be working

1004
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 2: together instead of kind of this heavy handed I'm just

1005
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 2: going to take charge of this situation. This is where

1006
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:45,960
Speaker 2: I feel we have a where more politics has been

1007
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 2: brought into a volatile situation than should should be allowed

1008
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 2: to factor in.

1009
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 1: So do you think he was overstepping his authority or not.

1010
01:07:57,520 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 2: I think the President wanted to make a point. I

1011
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:03,120
Speaker 2: think he wanted to show a level of strength and

1012
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 2: dominance and taking charge. I think that was that was

1013
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 2: what he wanted to.

1014
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 1: Do in a political way.

1015
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 2: That's how that's how it's been translated. Right.

1016
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:16,880
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a couple of other issues. There's

1017
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 1: so much going on, and I just so appreciate your

1018
01:08:19,439 --> 01:08:22,200
Speaker 1: time to kind of give us your point of view

1019
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 1: on some of these things. The murder of their representative

1020
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 1: in Minnesota, Melissa Hortman and her husband, and then the

1021
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 1: shooting of another legislator and his wife. It's scary out.

1022
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 2: It is scary. It is scary. It is it is

1023
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 2: a it is a volatile time. There is anger, there

1024
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 2: is there's hatred, there's hatred, and this is where this

1025
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:01,200
Speaker 2: is where I think as leaders at all levels we

1026
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 2: have we have a responsibility to work to be bringing

1027
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:13,759
Speaker 2: people together, not creating greater divide, not creating greater anger

1028
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:19,400
Speaker 2: and hatred, and us against them. Watching your words, your

1029
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 2: words really really matter.

1030
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 1: What did you think of Mike Lee's statements?

1031
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:26,800
Speaker 2: I think your words really matter, and I think what

1032
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:32,720
Speaker 2: he put out there was wrong and insensitive, it was

1033
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:36,280
Speaker 2: just and so why would you do this? Why would you?

1034
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 2: Why would you? Why would you add fuel to a fire?

1035
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:45,560
Speaker 1: Well, I think some people would not use the word insensitive.

1036
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:50,679
Speaker 1: I think they might say grossly and appropriate, you know,

1037
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: I mean it was really weird. Let's be honest.

1038
01:09:54,400 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 2: Well, and let's let's not let's not even try to

1039
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 2: describe whether it was weird or grossly inappropriate. But why

1040
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:19,519
Speaker 2: would you do anything that would that again, would would

1041
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:23,559
Speaker 2: poke at the situation in a way that is going

1042
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 2: to be more divisive at a time when I would

1043
01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:34,080
Speaker 2: like to think that we would say when a lawmaker,

1044
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:37,080
Speaker 2: somebody who is an elected representative of the people at

1045
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 2: any level has been assassinated by a guy with a

1046
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:46,599
Speaker 2: hit list, that we would not all roundly condemn that,

1047
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:51,840
Speaker 2: regardless of whether you're the victim was a Democrat or

1048
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:58,880
Speaker 2: a Republican or you know whatever. Uh, this is this

1049
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:03,760
Speaker 2: is where we're not we're not recognizing the humanity. We're

1050
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:06,760
Speaker 2: letting politics intervene into everything.

1051
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:09,759
Speaker 1: So how can we tone down the rhetoric?

1052
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:13,040
Speaker 2: Think before you send a tweet.

1053
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:17,680
Speaker 1: In fact, you had your sister made a necklace for

1054
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:22,240
Speaker 1: you after an interview we did, yeah, where you said.

1055
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:26,120
Speaker 2: I cannot live in fear of a tweet because I

1056
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 2: think the question that you had asked me. This was

1057
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 2: in the first Trump administration, and I don't recall what

1058
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:34,040
Speaker 2: the issue of the day was, but I had spoken

1059
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:38,360
Speaker 2: out and you asked me if I was concerned about

1060
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:41,559
Speaker 2: any kind of pushback or retribution, and I said I can't.

1061
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:44,000
Speaker 2: I can't live in fear of a tweet. And yeah,

1062
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:46,519
Speaker 2: so Carol did make me that little necklace. I still

1063
01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 2: have it. I don't wear it all the time, but

1064
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 2: I have it right underneath a heart of this date

1065
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:55,639
Speaker 2: of Alaska.

1066
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:58,760
Speaker 1: So let me ask you about the so called Big

1067
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 1: Beautiful Bill, which is now known as that branded by

1068
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:05,759
Speaker 1: the Trump administration. Do you think it's going to pass?

1069
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:07,120
Speaker 1: What is the status?

1070
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:12,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, not not not knowing what day

1071
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:15,679
Speaker 2: this is actually going to air. I can only speak

1072
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:19,160
Speaker 2: about where it is today. And we are not done.

1073
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:21,640
Speaker 2: I think it's probably fair to say that there is

1074
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 2: still a great deal that is yet to be negotiated. Uh.

1075
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 2: The public has been read into the great controversies over

1076
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:35,120
Speaker 2: as salt and medicaid and the energy tax credits and

1077
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:39,800
Speaker 2: the deficit. The deficit. Oh yeah, these are none of

1078
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:42,120
Speaker 2: these are insignificant. You know, does it spend too much?

1079
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 2: Does it does it cut too much? Uh? The these

1080
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 2: these are areas where we are not yet reconciled. This weekend, UH,

1081
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:55,760
Speaker 2: there will be this procedural process where the parliamentarian will determine, uh,

1082
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 2: those matters that are more related to policy than than

1083
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 2: than revenue or spending, and those are are thrown overboard.

1084
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:05,040
Speaker 2: So what does that do to Well, I'm there or

1085
01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:08,280
Speaker 2: I'm not there. I've been working through a lot of

1086
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 2: the concerns that I have as they relate to Medicaid

1087
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:15,519
Speaker 2: and SNAP and our ability and in a state like

1088
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 2: Alaska to to to not only UH be able to

1089
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:25,840
Speaker 2: comply with certain requirements, but just the impact on Alaskans

1090
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:31,000
Speaker 2: where we've got an extraordinarily expensive system, uh, when it

1091
01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:34,360
Speaker 2: comes to healthcare and access to healthcare and limited access.

1092
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:40,000
Speaker 2: So there's a lot in the mix right now. I

1093
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:45,679
Speaker 2: do think ultimately you're going to see a reconciliation bill pass.

1094
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:47,880
Speaker 2: Do I think it's going to pass by the fourth

1095
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 2: of July. Uh, That's what everybody is is aiming towards.

1096
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:58,759
Speaker 2: I would much rather, and I have have have said,

1097
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:05,879
Speaker 2: uh said that I would much rather have good policy

1098
01:14:06,080 --> 01:14:11,440
Speaker 2: than try to adhere to an arbitrary timeline.

1099
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:13,920
Speaker 1: Do you think Donald Trump is going to be disappointed

1100
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:16,080
Speaker 1: with the ultimate bill?

1101
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:20,240
Speaker 2: You know, I wouldn't think so. I wouldn't think so.

1102
01:14:20,320 --> 01:14:23,720
Speaker 2: I think his and keep in mind I'm not on

1103
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 2: the negotiating team. I'm not a chairman of a committee

1104
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:32,640
Speaker 2: that received instructions, and so a lot of these negotiations

1105
01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:35,320
Speaker 2: are going on with just a very few individuals, right.

1106
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:40,280
Speaker 2: But I am very aware that the Trump administration has

1107
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:45,240
Speaker 2: been engaged throughout so that they know that the kind

1108
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:50,479
Speaker 2: of the general direction of things. So I would I

1109
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:52,960
Speaker 2: would certainly think he would be good with it at

1110
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:54,839
Speaker 2: the end of the day.

1111
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:57,679
Speaker 1: How do you feel about the cabinet in general now

1112
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 1: that you've seen them operate for most six months? You

1113
01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:06,680
Speaker 1: were talking earlier about the people President Trump was surrounding

1114
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:12,400
Speaker 1: himself with now versus his first term. In general, do

1115
01:15:12,479 --> 01:15:13,920
Speaker 1: you think they're doing a good job?

1116
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:22,559
Speaker 2: Uh? In general? Uh, you know, I I can pick

1117
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:30,519
Speaker 2: on a secretary here or there. Uh, but I think

1118
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 2: I think the President has put in place, at least

1119
01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:38,599
Speaker 2: at the top level, a cabinet that is they're they're

1120
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 2: they're working to do their job. Uh. There are still

1121
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:46,240
Speaker 2: many within the departments, you know. I'm I'm the chairman

1122
01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:51,560
Speaker 2: of the Interior Appropriations Committee, So uh, we've got jurisdiction

1123
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:57,800
Speaker 2: over all the parks and public lands and in many

1124
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:02,000
Speaker 2: of these positions that are under the Secretary. They don't

1125
01:16:02,040 --> 01:16:05,720
Speaker 2: have them filled out yet, and so we're trying to

1126
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 2: get answers to a lot of questions and don't get

1127
01:16:09,160 --> 01:16:11,800
Speaker 2: the level of detail that we need right now because

1128
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 2: the people that would be putting these in place are

1129
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:17,599
Speaker 2: not yet there. That's hard. I get that.

1130
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:21,840
Speaker 1: Since you brought up the National Parks, can I ask

1131
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:26,439
Speaker 1: you Senator about you know, obviously there were significant cuts

1132
01:16:27,080 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 1: to the National parks, especially being from Alaska and caring

1133
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:36,040
Speaker 1: so much for the environment in the outside world. I

1134
01:16:36,160 --> 01:16:40,440
Speaker 1: recently saw that there can't be any signage or education

1135
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:46,080
Speaker 1: in our national parks about anything negative about America or

1136
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:52,640
Speaker 1: that's interpreted as negative. So really no conversation about indigenous

1137
01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:56,720
Speaker 1: people where this gos backed on that one tell me,

1138
01:16:56,760 --> 01:16:58,960
Speaker 1: because that's the impression I got.

1139
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:03,639
Speaker 2: Because when we talk about indigenous people, we're not talking

1140
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:07,599
Speaker 2: about a DEI initiative. And this was something very very

1141
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:11,080
Speaker 2: early on in the Trump administration when the DEI Executive

1142
01:17:11,200 --> 01:17:18,599
Speaker 2: Order came out. The relationship with American Indians, Alaska Native

1143
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:22,479
Speaker 2: Native Hawaiians is based on a trust responsibility, right, It's

1144
01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:29,479
Speaker 2: a trust and treaty responsibility and there are It is

1145
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:35,320
Speaker 2: not race based. It is political based and it's very clear.

1146
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:43,920
Speaker 2: I made a request of the various secretaries, I think

1147
01:17:43,960 --> 01:17:48,760
Speaker 2: it was probably in late January or February, very early on,

1148
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 2: reminding them, reminding them that when we are talking about

1149
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:58,080
Speaker 2: Native programs, when we are talking about Indigenous peoples, we

1150
01:17:58,120 --> 01:18:03,400
Speaker 2: are not talking about d e I And Uh it

1151
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:06,920
Speaker 2: was actually a Secretary Burghum out of Interior that issued

1152
01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:12,320
Speaker 2: a secretarial order confirming that we were able to receive

1153
01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:15,599
Speaker 2: the same out of HHS out of the Department of Education.

1154
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:21,280
Speaker 2: And so we have been working very aggressively, if you will,

1155
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:26,880
Speaker 2: to to ensure that, uh, there's no there's no confusion.

1156
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:32,040
Speaker 2: So I saw the same same thing that you have

1157
01:18:32,160 --> 01:18:38,240
Speaker 2: read about the signage in the parks. I'm not quite sure, like, okay,

1158
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:44,360
Speaker 2: what is this? What does this mean? Uh? So I'm

1159
01:18:44,479 --> 01:18:48,760
Speaker 2: actually I'm actually going to get a better read out

1160
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:54,320
Speaker 2: from the folks over there at Interior about give me

1161
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:58,120
Speaker 2: some specific examples here, because if we're not talking about

1162
01:18:58,160 --> 01:19:03,360
Speaker 2: indigenous peoples, is this instances you know, maybe it's it's

1163
01:19:03,680 --> 01:19:09,840
Speaker 2: slaves that were involved in a battleground, uh site that

1164
01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:13,120
Speaker 2: is part of our of our park system. Give me

1165
01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:16,120
Speaker 2: some give me some examples of what you what you

1166
01:19:16,280 --> 01:19:19,160
Speaker 2: consider to be in this category.

1167
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:22,240
Speaker 1: Do you sometimes feel, or have you felt at all,

1168
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:28,839
Speaker 1: that this anti Dei philosophy or this backlash against Dei

1169
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:32,320
Speaker 1: has gone too far to the point where it's a

1170
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:38,600
Speaker 1: racing history. It is not giving credit to female pioneers,

1171
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:41,840
Speaker 1: black pioneers. I personally find it distressing.

1172
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:47,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I'll give you a specific example. I was

1173
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:50,240
Speaker 2: on my way to Sitka, Alaska, which is a small

1174
01:19:50,240 --> 01:19:52,400
Speaker 2: island and beautiful community in southeast Alasta.

1175
01:19:52,479 --> 01:19:53,880
Speaker 1: I have a friend who is the doctor there.

1176
01:19:54,160 --> 01:19:57,519
Speaker 2: Really it's a great community, beautiful, But I was going

1177
01:19:57,560 --> 01:20:04,800
Speaker 2: there because we were recognized a Clinket code talker. So

1178
01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:10,240
Speaker 2: everyone knows of the Navajo code talkers. Well, during the war, Uh,

1179
01:20:10,320 --> 01:20:15,519
Speaker 2: there were also a small group of of of Clinkett

1180
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 2: people who served in the military. The Clinquet language is

1181
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:27,080
Speaker 2: it's hard to pronounce and UH. Anyway, they they were

1182
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:31,559
Speaker 2: also code talkers, and so they have been recipients of

1183
01:20:31,640 --> 01:20:36,160
Speaker 2: the Congressional Gold Meal. And I was literally on an

1184
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:41,200
Speaker 2: airplane to go present the family of this uh, this

1185
01:20:41,320 --> 01:20:44,839
Speaker 2: code talker who had not previously been acknowledged, UH, present

1186
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:51,280
Speaker 2: them the UH, the the documentation, and I get word

1187
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:58,759
Speaker 2: that UH that the Navajo code talkers. The code talkers

1188
01:20:58,760 --> 01:21:02,439
Speaker 2: basically had we're going to be scrubbed as part of

1189
01:21:02,479 --> 01:21:08,120
Speaker 2: a DEI initiative. Now, obviously that didn't happen. We've addressed that,

1190
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:11,719
Speaker 2: but it kind of speaks to the who's making these

1191
01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 2: decisions and why why do you think that this is appropriate?

1192
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:17,040
Speaker 2: I'll tell you one of the things that I think

1193
01:21:17,200 --> 01:21:22,320
Speaker 2: is causes me to say sometimes these things are just

1194
01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:26,679
Speaker 2: over the top. I don't know what how much money

1195
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:30,880
Speaker 2: it's going to cost to take the name off of

1196
01:21:31,920 --> 01:21:35,559
Speaker 2: the Harvey Milk where I guess the Harriet Tubman also

1197
01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:38,160
Speaker 2: was a naval I don't know what kind of a

1198
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:43,519
Speaker 2: naval ship she is, but a handful of individuals that

1199
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 2: had had faced extreme challenges through their life who had

1200
01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 2: been recognized we've named a ship after them. It's kind

1201
01:21:56,400 --> 01:22:00,480
Speaker 2: of petty to say, you know, how much does it cost?

1202
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:05,080
Speaker 2: But in fairness, In fairness, when we're looking at all

1203
01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:09,519
Speaker 2: of the other priorities that we are asking of our

1204
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:12,559
Speaker 2: military right now that we are asking of our navy,

1205
01:22:12,680 --> 01:22:17,120
Speaker 2: when our navy needs to to be doing more yesterday

1206
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:20,240
Speaker 2: to to build up their fleet, we're now going to

1207
01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:23,880
Speaker 2: tell you go over and and scrape everything off, repaint it,

1208
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:28,360
Speaker 2: rebrand it. Why why are we doing why are we

1209
01:22:28,560 --> 01:22:35,200
Speaker 2: doing this this effort to to just to use your

1210
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:36,679
Speaker 2: words to scrub everything?

1211
01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:39,799
Speaker 1: Who is making the decision?

1212
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:45,160
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know who's making the decisions.

1213
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:48,240
Speaker 2: You know. I think in the in the in the

1214
01:22:48,320 --> 01:22:52,560
Speaker 2: early months, there were some things that were coming out

1215
01:22:52,720 --> 01:22:56,840
Speaker 2: that just were where did that come from? And and

1216
01:22:57,160 --> 01:23:00,240
Speaker 2: we learned that there was some decisions that were being

1217
01:23:00,280 --> 01:23:04,840
Speaker 2: made by doche teams that came in before you had

1218
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:07,439
Speaker 2: any secretaries being accountable, And there was some stuff that

1219
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:11,360
Speaker 2: was going on that I think caught a lot by surprise.

1220
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:17,880
Speaker 2: And I can't imagine what it must have felt like

1221
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:22,040
Speaker 2: to be a cabinet member coming in and to see

1222
01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:24,680
Speaker 2: some of the things that you basically now had to

1223
01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:28,000
Speaker 2: figure out how to clean up while not throwing anybody

1224
01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:34,360
Speaker 2: under the bus, right. Yeah, So I don't know, I

1225
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:36,400
Speaker 2: don't know who's making that decision. I mean, I don't

1226
01:23:36,439 --> 01:23:39,639
Speaker 2: know if that's from the Secretary of Defense or if

1227
01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:45,879
Speaker 2: that's somebody somebody lower down. But somebody's making the decision.

1228
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:51,680
Speaker 1: You did vote to confirm Robert F. Kennedy Junior. Do

1229
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:52,519
Speaker 1: you regret that?

1230
01:23:54,479 --> 01:24:00,519
Speaker 2: I can't spend time on regrets for the votes that

1231
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:04,719
Speaker 2: I have made. I'm disappointed in what we've seen out

1232
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:09,320
Speaker 2: of Secretary Kennedy when it comes to vaccines and the

1233
01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:14,200
Speaker 2: the the panel. We need to have h we need

1234
01:24:14,240 --> 01:24:17,439
Speaker 2: to have truth and credibility and honestry and transparency and

1235
01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:21,240
Speaker 2: all of the above when it comes to UH to

1236
01:24:21,240 --> 01:24:24,439
Speaker 2: to our vaccine policy in this country. And I think

1237
01:24:24,479 --> 01:24:28,040
Speaker 2: by just summarily disposing of everybody that was on that panel,

1238
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:35,320
Speaker 2: it doesn't it doesn't convince me that that UH this

1239
01:24:35,479 --> 01:24:42,200
Speaker 2: is now credible and and and and trustworthy. So that

1240
01:24:42,200 --> 01:24:46,920
Speaker 2: that to me is very very concerning. I will say

1241
01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:53,720
Speaker 2: though that my my vote to support him, I was

1242
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:56,559
Speaker 2: very very direct with him where I come from on

1243
01:24:56,560 --> 01:25:01,400
Speaker 2: on vaccines. But he he has been true to his

1244
01:25:01,479 --> 01:25:06,840
Speaker 2: word to me when it comes to IHS in in

1245
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:11,719
Speaker 2: health service, which he has that oversight of in ensuring

1246
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:17,120
Speaker 2: that the reductions and forces, the riffs that were applicable

1247
01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:21,960
Speaker 2: across his department, that they were preserved, he said to me,

1248
01:25:22,120 --> 01:25:25,680
Speaker 2: and he acknowledged that, Look, they have been underfunded. This

1249
01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:28,800
Speaker 2: is an area where there is great need. I'm going

1250
01:25:28,840 --> 01:25:32,080
Speaker 2: to be there. And the other area is his focus

1251
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:37,960
Speaker 2: on chronic diseases, things like obesity, diabetes. These are things

1252
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:42,320
Speaker 2: that we see in Alaska that are extraordinary drivers in

1253
01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:45,479
Speaker 2: some of the healthcare issues that we're seeing with a

1254
01:25:45,520 --> 01:25:48,439
Speaker 2: focus on just diet and what this all means. So

1255
01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:51,200
Speaker 2: he's got a very I think it's fair to say

1256
01:25:51,200 --> 01:25:54,479
Speaker 2: he's got a strong following in Alaska because of the

1257
01:25:54,520 --> 01:25:58,439
Speaker 2: focus on some of these So is he perfect?

1258
01:25:58,920 --> 01:25:59,080
Speaker 1: No?

1259
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:02,439
Speaker 2: Am I going to push him to try to be

1260
01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:07,800
Speaker 2: more better. I think that's my responsibility.

1261
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:10,280
Speaker 1: If you had known then what you know now, would

1262
01:26:10,360 --> 01:26:12,280
Speaker 1: you still have voted to confirm him.

1263
01:26:14,400 --> 01:26:16,800
Speaker 2: I think I would have gotten I would have tried

1264
01:26:16,840 --> 01:26:24,080
Speaker 2: to have gotten greater assurances, are more specific assurances on vaccines.

1265
01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:27,479
Speaker 2: But I also recognize that, look, we are, we are

1266
01:26:27,520 --> 01:26:31,880
Speaker 2: six months into into this process. He's appointed eight people.

1267
01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 2: I think the maximum to the panel is I want

1268
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:38,920
Speaker 2: to say seventeen or eighteen. It's it's it's much. It's

1269
01:26:38,960 --> 01:26:42,760
Speaker 2: double what it could be. And so he's got some

1270
01:26:42,880 --> 01:26:48,040
Speaker 2: room for improvement there, I think, and I think that

1271
01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:51,519
Speaker 2: there are other members of the Senate who who feel

1272
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:58,280
Speaker 2: as I do on this issue that making sure that

1273
01:26:58,280 --> 01:27:01,080
Speaker 2: that there is credibility, that there is strong science, that

1274
01:27:02,240 --> 01:27:07,559
Speaker 2: we get beyond some of these issues that lead to

1275
01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:11,799
Speaker 2: vaccine hesitancy because of signals that are sent by policy leaders.

1276
01:27:13,400 --> 01:27:14,360
Speaker 2: We got some work to do.

1277
01:27:15,280 --> 01:27:20,400
Speaker 1: I want to end with one of your prime motivators

1278
01:27:20,400 --> 01:27:23,400
Speaker 1: for writing this book, if I could, Senator Murkowski, that

1279
01:27:24,160 --> 01:27:27,639
Speaker 1: you wanted to show the system actually works. I think

1280
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:30,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people in this country don't feel that

1281
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:34,720
Speaker 1: way right now. You give examples, but what would you

1282
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:39,840
Speaker 1: say to people who are really discouraged and frustrated.

1283
01:27:39,920 --> 01:27:43,000
Speaker 2: You can't give up. You can't give up. What's your

1284
01:27:43,040 --> 01:27:49,000
Speaker 2: option just like stay in bed all day and think

1285
01:27:49,040 --> 01:27:55,400
Speaker 2: it's going to get better. There's a lot of people

1286
01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:58,719
Speaker 2: speaking up now who've never spoken up before, never spoken

1287
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:04,360
Speaker 2: up before, never being involved in a protest, who are

1288
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:10,280
Speaker 2: becoming engaged. They're frustrated because it's like, Okay, so I

1289
01:28:10,360 --> 01:28:14,760
Speaker 2: marched in a protest, I had a sign, it was fun,

1290
01:28:14,800 --> 01:28:17,080
Speaker 2: it was a beautiful day. I've never done this before,

1291
01:28:19,080 --> 01:28:21,200
Speaker 2: and I've heard I've heard them say is this a

1292
01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:24,000
Speaker 2: waste of time? And I said, you know what, when

1293
01:28:24,080 --> 01:28:30,839
Speaker 2: people stop speaking up, then we're gonna believe that everything's okay.

1294
01:28:30,920 --> 01:28:35,120
Speaker 2: And you know everything's not okay, and so stay in there,

1295
01:28:35,240 --> 01:28:40,240
Speaker 2: don't give up, and so I know that there is

1296
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:43,360
Speaker 2: a level of discouragement. I know that people are feeling

1297
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:47,960
Speaker 2: like this is just really heavy right now, and so

1298
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:53,240
Speaker 2: isn't isn't this the moment two for you to be

1299
01:28:53,280 --> 01:28:58,799
Speaker 2: a participant instead of checking out? We can't. We can't

1300
01:28:58,880 --> 01:29:02,040
Speaker 2: check out. Then we give up. And when you give up,

1301
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:06,920
Speaker 2: then that's when that's when you have the authoritarian that

1302
01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:10,400
Speaker 2: comes in and says, I'll take care of you my way. No,

1303
01:29:11,439 --> 01:29:13,400
Speaker 2: there has to be a level of optimism, and there

1304
01:29:13,400 --> 01:29:16,839
Speaker 2: has to be a level of hope. And I operate

1305
01:29:16,920 --> 01:29:20,479
Speaker 2: in an environment of a lot of negative nabobs out here,

1306
01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:22,960
Speaker 2: and I get that, and I cannot let them get

1307
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:27,720
Speaker 2: me down. I cannot. I have to believe in the

1308
01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:32,360
Speaker 2: greater good. And maybe it's just the spirituality that comes

1309
01:29:32,400 --> 01:29:36,760
Speaker 2: with an amazing place like Alaska that allows me to think, Yeah,

1310
01:29:36,760 --> 01:29:39,360
Speaker 2: this is worth fighting for. We can do this. It

1311
01:29:39,479 --> 01:29:43,240
Speaker 2: may be like a crazy wild write in that everybody

1312
01:29:43,240 --> 01:29:46,320
Speaker 2: says is impossible. Maybe they're saying it can't be saved,

1313
01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:50,640
Speaker 2: but we are still the greatest country. We're still the

1314
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:56,759
Speaker 2: greatest country on the planet, and so let's not let's

1315
01:29:56,800 --> 01:30:02,080
Speaker 2: not fall prey to our own our own fears here.

1316
01:30:02,320 --> 01:30:04,160
Speaker 1: Let's let's.

1317
01:30:05,360 --> 01:30:08,840
Speaker 2: Figure it out. It's gonna be hard, but it's gonna

1318
01:30:08,840 --> 01:30:10,599
Speaker 2: be worth it. You just have to believe.

1319
01:30:12,400 --> 01:30:15,280
Speaker 1: Well. The book is far from home, an Alaskan senator

1320
01:30:15,320 --> 01:30:19,479
Speaker 1: faces the extreme climate of Washington, d C. Where we're

1321
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:22,759
Speaker 1: sitting right now. Senator Murkowski, thank you so much, Thank.

1322
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 2: You, Thanks for the conversation. Good to be back with you.

1323
01:30:29,200 --> 01:30:32,439
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,

1324
01:30:32,840 --> 01:30:35,320
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

1325
01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:38,719
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

1326
01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:42,320
Speaker 1: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would

1327
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:45,400
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

1328
01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:50,000
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

1329
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:54,960
Speaker 1: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

1330
01:30:55,479 --> 01:31:00,320
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

1331
01:31:00,400 --> 01:31:05,439
Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

1332
01:31:05,680 --> 01:31:08,040
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

1333
01:31:08,520 --> 01:31:11,400
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app or visit

1334
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:14,680
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

1335
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Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

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Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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