WEBVTT - #308 Guest Host Amanda Knox with Heidi Fero 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.720 I'm Jason plom, host of Bronful Conviction. Over the years, 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:07.440 hundreds of exanneries have told me their stories. Sadly, with 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:09.720 the state of our criminal legal system, we're left with 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:13.159 far more cases than I can possibly cover alone. So 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:16.320 I've asked some exaneries to handle some of those cases, 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:18.919 bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:22.640 only come from having lived through their own wrongful convictions. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.080 This is one of those interviews. 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:32.080 In January two thousand and two, Heidi Farah was a 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:36.120 young mother living with her boyfriend in Vancouver, Washington. The 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:39.199 couple had two children, a five year old daughter and 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:42.400 a one year old son. To make a little extra money, 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.920 she occasionally babysat two other kids, a four year old 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:51.519 boy and a fifteen month old girl named Brynn. One night, 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.160 Heidi was home alone with the four children when her 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.440 eldest daughter alerted her about something being wrong with Brynn. 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:02.080 The fifteen month old girl was shaking and crying, and 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.440 Heidi comforted and settled her down to sleep. A little 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:09.399 while later, though it was obvious that something was seriously wrong. 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:13.399 Brynn's eyes had slid open while she slept and she 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:17.720 didn't respond when Heidi tried to wake her. Heidi called 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:21.360 nine one one. The paramedics took Brynn to the hospital, 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:23.760 where she was found to have a fractured leg and 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:28.040 bleeding behind her eyes and around her brain. Everything pointed 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:33.319 to shaken baby syndrome or SBS, a diagnosis that is 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:39.520 also a criminal charge. In SBS cases, the caregiver present 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.800 is almost always the one charged with abusing the child. 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:46.240 Medical studies have shown that there is often a leg 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:48.560 from the time of the injury to when the symptoms 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:51.560 show up, but the legal system hasn't caught up with 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:55.800 those findings. The cause of Brynn's injuries could have happened 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:59.200 up to four days before Heidi was watching her, but 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:03.160 that didn't matter in the eyes of the law. Brynn 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.840 would end up permanently blind in one eye and paralyzed 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.360 on one side of her body. Heidi was charged with 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:14.440 first degree assault of a child. She was convicted and 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:18.800 sentenced to fifteen years in prison, one year for each 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:36.200 month of Brynn's life. This is wrongful conviction. Hi, I'm 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.959 Amanda Knox and I'll be filling in for Jason today 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.640 as your guest host. I'm an Exonaree, a previous guest 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:45.519 on the show, and I also co host a podcast 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:49.480 called Labyrinths. My own wrongful conviction and the years of 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.639 experience I've gained from working in this space have taught 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.600 me that taking the simplest answer, the one that would 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.320 so easily wrap up a tragedy and assigned blame, isn't 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:03.160 always the right place one. Criminal investigations, like the world, 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.600 are full of gray areas, and that is certainly true 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.920 regarding the crime that my guest, Heidi Pharaoh, was convicted of. 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:16.720 Shaken Baby syndrome or SBS. The diagnosis was coined in 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:21.320 nineteen seventy four to describe a triad of symptoms bleeding 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.800 on the brain, bleeding in the eyes, and brain damage 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.320 caused by lack of oxygen. It was meant to deter 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:32.160 parents from the then normal practice of shaking a crying infant, 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:37.040 but afterwards courts used it to prosecute parents and caregivers 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:42.120 for child abuse. The so called forensic sciences are actually 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:45.400 more of an art, requiring a professional to interpret the 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.800 data and draw their own conclusion. It is a field 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:52.480 of study that's still developing. In the case of sbs. 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:55.560 New evidence has shown that the triad of symptoms that 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:59.119 show up in such cases are not always caused by 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:03.360 actually shaking a baby. There is reason for doubt, and 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.360 Heidi was caught up in this gray area of medical 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:10.600 science and criminal law. I invited Heidi and a member 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:14.160 of her legal team, Lara Zarrowsky, who is the executive 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.640 and policy director of the Washington Innocence Project, to sit 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:27.320 down with me. Let's hop right into it, Heidi, So, 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:32.800 I understand that your parents were hippies and activists, and 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:38.000 growing up you definitely had that alternative lifestyle happening. By 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.800 the time you were growing up. What kind of life 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.440 were you hoping for? What did you imagine for yourself? 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.799 Yeah, so I had kind of a so my mom 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:52.520 was more of this activist, but my dad was a farmer. 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:55.320 He's a dirt farmer. He wasn't my biological father, but 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.880 he's the man that raised me, and he was just 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:02.000 a dirt farmer. Very philosophic goal but still just a 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:05.359 good old country boy. My grandparents actually retired from the 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:09.400 United States for service, and even though they were also liberal, 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.000 they tended to be a little more traditional and conservative. 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:16.600 So I had these dynamics, and even though my mom's 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.880 life was what she chose at the time, I really 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:21.920 pulled away from it as I got older. 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:29.040 And so how old were you when the incident that 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:34.000 began your wrongful conviction journey? What was happening in your life? 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.520 Where were you? What was going on? 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:44.599 So I was with my ex husband. We had two children, 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.240 my daughter Rachel, who was I believe four at the time, 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.359 and my son Derek, who was about a year old. 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:55.240 So I was a very young new mother. How old 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.599 I think that I was twenty three? 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:02.920 Oh, yeah, you were a baby, Wes twenty three. 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:07.320 We were just struggling young parents, trying to find our way, 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:09.800 trying to establish a life. And I was kind of 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.200 driving for that, like white picket fence, And because his 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.800 life had been unstable for him growing up, he was 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.320 also seeking the same thing. And that's what we felt 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.240 we had in common at the time. So we were 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.680 really just trying to establish ourselves. I was home with 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:27.159 the kids most of the time. I did work part 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:32.200 time at a furniture store and he worked. My ex husband, 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.640 Dustin worked full time at a machine shop. We were 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:38.040 just young trying to establish ourselves. 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:42.680 Yeah, and sometimes you babysat, sometimes I babysap. 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:43.679 Yeah I did. 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:47.200 And how would you say you felt around kids? Did 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.000 you like being a mom? Like? What was what was 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:50.599 that for you? 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.600 I absolutely loved being a mother and felt like at 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:58.680 a very young age that that was my calling. I 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.960 loved being around a kids. I did actually try to 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.520 go to school, which is hard when you have two 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.840 little children. But I was taking early childhood development with 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.840 the intention that I knew I had a gift when 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:16.040 it came to kind of, you know, being comfortable with 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:18.520 kids and you know, being able to kind of like 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.560 understand developmentally where they were at and how to talk 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:25.160 to them. And I wanted to do something with that. However, 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.520 I didn't have X, my ex husband did not support 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.960 me to go to school, and I had two young children. 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:35.760 So I'm wondering, if. 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:39.080 We can now just talk a little bit about what happened, 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.080 maybe you can set the stage for us, Heidi, where 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:47.160 are you? Who are the people who are who are 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:51.520 going to be involved and what is your relationship to them? 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:57.560 Sure, so we were living I'm Vancouver, Washington and in 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:01.560 a townhouse, three bedroom townhouse, and so we were picking 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.000 up any other kind of income that we could, which 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:09.160 is why I started working part time at a furniture store. 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.880 And he was approached by a man that he worked 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.360 with at the machine shop and they had became friends, 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.400 and he let him know that he was looking for 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:27.120 childcare for his daughter but also her brother, who was 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:28.360 four at the time. 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:33.160 And the son's name was Cad and the daughter's name 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:34.440 was Brinn Brynn. 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:40.720 Yes, so Jason, Brie, Cad and Brynn and my ex 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.959 husband approached me and gave me the offer, and we 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:47.520 thought at the time, we agreed that it was a 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:51.000 good idea to get some more income. What I want 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.200 to say is, even going into it, we kind of 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.679 had some red flags. You know, there was a lot 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.160 of adversity between the two of them, and it started 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:02.320 to come to me that they'd been having trouble keeping 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:06.960 babysitters because of the behavioral problems of Kate, and so 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:11.000 once we had said yes, then this information started to 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:12.120 kind of trickle out. 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:15.800 Interesting, so when we talk about behavior problems, like what 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:17.280 kind of stuff are we talking about? 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:24.640 Anger? He attempted. It's hard for me to say the 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.840 four year old would attempt suicide, but he was actually 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:31.480 hospitalized for wrapping a cord around his neck and strangling himself. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:32.160 Oh wow. 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:37.920 He became aggressive with my children, and my grandmother was 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.480 actually with all of the kids. One evening, I had 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.360 to run to my office for a minute, my part 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:48.280 time work office. When I got back, my grandmother was 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.080 distraught and not happy with the kids, and she was like, 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:52.920 You've got to get this boy out of your house. 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.360 My son had scratch marks up and down his hands 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:00.199 and wrists, and my grandmother said he had I had 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.120 gotten mad at my son who was in his little 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:06.000 playpen and had his hands over the top of his 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:08.200 hands and was screaming in his face. And when my 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.320 grandmother went over there to kind of pull them apart, 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.720 she had to pry his hands off of my son's 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:18.680 there's one year old son. One year old son. Wow. 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.280 So there was just these these things that were becoming 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:26.520 increasingly uncomfortable, and I was concerned, and I was telling 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:29.200 my ex husband, I'm concerned, like something doesn't feel right 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.000 to me, something doesn't sit right to me. And my 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:36.600 ex husband is very anti getting into anybody's business or 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.319 involving any kind of authorities, and he just kept telling 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.640 me I was overreacting and you know, we don't need 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:46.080 to worry about it, and. 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.160 He's for what harm could he do? Right? 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:51.480 And and there were increasing bruises and things showing up 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.959 on Brinn, and when we would ask, we were told 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:57.439 she fell off a counter, or you know, he tripped her. 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:02.880 He had done this or these increasing things in just 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:06.160 a very short period of time two months. I think 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.600 the final star for me was I had a gate 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.840 at the bottom of the stairs at our townhouse, and 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:17.200 my sister was actually staying with me, and she was 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.160 downstairs with the kids, and I had ran upstairs, and 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:24.439 Brynn would always follow me around the house. She wanted 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.000 upstairs where I was at. And so she's a hefty 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.400 little girl, fifteen month old, and she I think was 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:32.840 trying to climb over the bottom gate, or at least 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.280 was pulling on it, and so she had tumbled with 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.280 it because she actually got it loose. I reported it 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:41.520 to her mother when she picked her up, just hey, 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:43.760 she might have a little bit of a bruise, but 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:45.720 I don't think she got her I don't think she 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:52.480 overly hurt herself. Nothing major. The next day, when she 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:56.200 was dropped off, she had severe bruises all over her. 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.200 And when I asked the mother what happened, she said, oh, 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:03.800 you told me she felt down the stairs, and I 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:06.080 I was you know, I just was like, my sister 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:08.400 was there. We know what she looked like when she 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.959 left the house and it was not like this, and 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:16.960 you know, they were new bruises. So I had called Jason, 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:19.640 the father and was like, I'm I don't even know 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:21.400 what to think, and he's like, she does that all 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.680 the time. She blames bruises from you know, bruises at 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.760 my house. And I think at that point I was 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.040 just like enough and I had told Jason. I told 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.520 my ex husband, you guys need to find somebody else. 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:37.439 I'm not comfortable doing this. And so we basically went 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:41.760 into like a work break. My ex husband and Jason 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.640 had a two week work break for the Christmas holiday, 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.439 and the understanding was is they would find somebody else 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:49.839 during that time. 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:51.679 So then what happened. 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.800 So they tried, they tried to find another babysitter, someone 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.640 to take care of the kids. And you know, I 0:12:57.640 --> 0:12:59.760 think that at the time this wasn't known, but putting 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.679 it together, have the experience that Heidi had not been 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:06.479 comfortable continuing to care for these kids because of Kaid's behavior, 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.280 but they still hadn't found anyone, so sort of as 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.640 a this is the last time I will take care 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:13.280 you know, I'll help you out this time, but you 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:16.640 really need to find someone else. On January seventh, the 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.360 kids were brought back to the house to be cared 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:23.319 for by Heidi, and that was that was the evening 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:28.480 that all of this process nightmare I think, began for Heidi. 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:31.320 So in this evening this was a there were a 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.880 few things that were unusual about about this. Actually, when 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.840 when Brinn and Caid were dropped off, Heidi wasn't even 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:40.439 home yet. She was actually at work, so it was 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:42.840 Dustin that was there that received the kids and actually 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.400 noted it was strange that when Brynn was brought in, 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:48.400 she was brought in in a car seat, and that's 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.280 not normally how she was brought in, So she was 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.360 brought in strapped into a car seat and kind of 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.880 left there and seemed was described as lethargic and sort 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.720 of distant, and Derek, whose one, was trying to you know, 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:04.320 play with her, and she seemed really uncomfortable and her 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:06.920 leg was bothering her. She was kind of had a 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:08.800 little had a bit of a limp. There was sort 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.800 of she was not presenting as she normally and I. 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.920 Want to emphasize we had not seen them in two weeks. Yeah, 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.080 so it'd been a couple of weeks and this was, 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.600 you know, sort of a one off. Already kind of 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:25.840 understanding that this was not a workable situation. So as 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:27.880 the evening is going on, the dropped off around the 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.720 in the afternoon, and then later in the evening, Brynn 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.200 is in a playpen, so kind of like in a 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.440 safely downstairs in a playpen, and her brother Kate is 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.080 there with her, and Rachel is down there too, Rachel 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:45.160 and her five year old and Heidi's upstairs giving a 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.880 bath to Derek, who was one at the time, and 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.800 so Rachel at five was observing what Caid was doing 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:54.960 to his sister. So she had reported that he was 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:59.320 jumping on her. That kid was jumping on Brin who 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.240 was fifteen months old, and was bashing her in the head, 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.200 hitting her in the head, and so Rachel was alerting 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:09.280 Heidi that this was happening, and so she got Derek 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.960 out of the bath, went downstairs to try to manage 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:16.000 what was happening, and actually called Jason to let him know, 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:18.640 this is what's been happening. How would you like me 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:23.080 to discipline him? When I called Jason, he told me 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.280 to actually lock Kate in a closet. 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:26.680 Oh. 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.840 Yeah. The other thing that I noted that evening was 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:36.680 Brynn had very swollen bruises across her abdomen, and when 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.080 I asked Jason what had happened, he said that Kate 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.119 had jumped on her from the back of the couch. Yeah. 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.160 And I think it's the one piece. It's maybe one 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.280 of the most difficult, but I think important for the 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:51.040 trajectory of the story is that after Rachel got Heidie's 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.400 attention and she came downstairs, she found Brent in the playpen, 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.520 but sort of on her knees and shaking and sort 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:00.480 of crying but not in a vocal way. It was 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:04.400 just very unusual and incredibly alarming. 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:09.000 Clearly, at one point I go, I think I'm on 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.160 a phone call with a friend. I'm kind of just, 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:16.600 you know, circling around the kids. I had been terribly sick, 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:19.760 so my house was disaster, and I'm trying to you know, 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.480 catch up on stuff, clean stuff up, and went to 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.120 check on her, and I noticed that her eyes were 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.680 like halfway open. I kind of lean in and I'm 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.280 just kind of like checking on her. There was just 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:36.560 something that like started to like alarm me about her demeanor, and. 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:38.520 Do you remember what it was? 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.040 I feel like her coloring, even though it was kind 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.240 of dim in there, like her coloring looked off. She 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:49.600 just didn't look very responsive. And when I remember very 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.600 clearly when I kind of went to kind of rouse 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.760 her a little bit, like her eyelids just slid open 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.680 all the way and there was just nothing. And at 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.720 that point, like I think, I through my phone and 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:07.440 started trying to like I just went into like there's 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:09.440 an emergency happening, So. 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:10.000 What did you do? 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:13.280 I took her into the kitchen, kind of set her 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.200 up on the counter in my arms and was trying 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.200 to splash. I was, you know, everything was happening fast 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:24.000 and extremely slow. At the same time, I was trying 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:28.000 to kind of get my mind under control to evaluate 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.400 and at the same time like panicking because I don't 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:36.160 understand what's happening, and very quickly realizing that I don't 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:38.840 have any kind of training like to deal with this, 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.560 and my daughter somehow, I don't know if I asked 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:45.440 her to get my phone or bring me my phone, 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.000 but she gets my phone to me and I call 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.680 my mom because my mom had been a volunteer firefighter, 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.800 and I'm just like, what do I do? I think, 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:56.960 you know, and I think I need to give a 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:59.520 little go context as to why I was questioning my 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:05.720 reality in that moment. I had suffered from anxiety and 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:09.000 kind of overreacting like if my son choked or and 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.879 my ex husband had really kind of like made me 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:18.240 question my own intuitive sense of things when an emergency 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:22.040 was happening, because oftentimes I was really truly overreacting, and 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.080 so I kind of had started to spiral into that 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:29.040 like am I crazy this reality actually happening right now? 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.960 Or am I overreacting? And so I called my mom. 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.000 I let her know very quickly like what I'm seeing, 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:37.679 and she just said, called nine one one, and I 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:38.920 immediately called nine one one. 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:41.320 And what did they say to do? 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:47.680 You know? I cannot even remember. I think the only 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.840 thing I can remember is I'm telling me someone's on 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:51.280 their way. 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:55.639 So maybe Laura, you can walk me through what happens next. 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.480 Yeah, So the paramedics do arrive within minutes, so there 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:03.840 they're really quickly and they find Brynn unconscious and bruises 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:06.080 on her body, which Heidi had observed those as well 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:09.000 when she when she first got there. They took her 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:12.560 to the hospital and they found that she had retinal hemorrhage, 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:17.960 hemorrhaging in both eyes, and also that her leg was fractured, 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.679 and they so there were there was just I just 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.959 want to say, there's no question that that Brent experienced 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.160 really serious injuries. There's no question about that. But she's 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:31.280 taken to the hospital and it was the I think 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:32.359 the investigation. 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:35.080 Did you how soon. 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:37.840 Did you learn that they were sort of investigating, because 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.040 it was months before you were actually so. 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:44.120 I knew the next day because CPS came to take 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:49.440 my children, Rachel and Derek, and and so we knew 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:53.440 the doctors had basically been accusing me or saying that 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.840 this is the only thing that happened, and she would 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.000 have been the only one there. We had my children, 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.199 and just to wrap that up, like, we hired a 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.520 family law attorney and had my children home in a week. 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:07.720 But that initial them coming to take them is when 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:10.159 I knew that there was something else going on. 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.720 I can't even imagine what went through your mind, Like 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:19.520 already you're twenty three years old and a child in 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:26.320 your care is becomes unresponsive, Like how insanely scary that 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:29.520 would be. But for then the next morning, for someone 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:32.920 to come and say, we're taking your children away. Can 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.679 you take me back to that moment, and where were you, 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:39.680 what time of day was this, what was your immediate reaction? 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:44.280 So we had actually Kate had been left at my 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:47.520 house after they took her to the hospital, nobody could 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:53.160 find his mother, and then when they did, she obviously 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.320 went to the hospital, and so we were we waited 0:20:56.440 --> 0:21:00.520 until like late morning for someone to act come and 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:03.080 pick him up, and then I just wanted to go 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:05.520 to the hospital. That's the only thing I wanted to do. 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:09.160 And so we went to the hospital and I actually 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:12.520 went back to see her. There were tubes all over 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:17.240 and you know, life support or life you know, saving 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:20.440 measures happening, and bandages around her head. And the last 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.800 thing I remember of my interaction with her was just 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:29.679 grabbing her little feet and like just praying that she 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:32.480 was going to come out of this. Really having no 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:36.439 idea what was Again, like, my reality is just in 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:41.880 trauma mode at that moment. So we leave there and 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:44.720 I think I went to my grandparents that just was 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:49.640 like my safe, comfortable place, and my kids were kind 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:53.400 of traumatized as well. I believe it was like eight 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:56.840 nine at night. By this time, my ex husband had 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:00.439 got back to the house there and they showed up 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.639 with two police officers and said we are taking the 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:07.480 kids into custody. My children had never been away from me. 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:15.200 I felt myself start to panic and just like want 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.200 to freak out, but then at the same time understanding 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:21.040 like this is completely out of my control and I 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:25.560 don't want to freak my kids out. So I was like, 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:29.080 I need to do everything I can so that they're 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:33.120 not afraid of what's happening right now, and so I 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:35.560 cooperated to not scare my children. 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:51.320 Hi there, I'm Amanda Knox. After four years in an 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:54.119 Italian prison for a murder I didn't commit. I know 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:56.280 what it's like to wind up in a life I 0:22:56.359 --> 0:23:01.040 never expected, even after I was exonerated, and so alone, 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:04.479 like no one would ever understand me I was wrong. 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:08.480 We're all navigating our own personal mazes. That's what my 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:12.400 podcast labyrinth is about. Along with my partner Christopher Robinson, 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:18.720 I'm telling stories about infertility, psychedelics, wrongful conviction, and wild adventure. 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:24.119 Every episode of Labyrinths is different, some heart wrenching, some hilarious, 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:27.680 with guests that run the gamut from comedians to dominatrixes, 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:31.720 to mountain climbers to scientists. But what's always true is 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:35.520 that labyrinth gets real. We go to the hard places, 0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:41.360 ask big philosophical questions, and create an immersive narrative experience. 0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:45.879 So please get lost with us. Subscribe to Labyrinths wherever 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:55.879 you listen. I wonder that first night, when they just 0:23:56.000 --> 0:24:01.560 automatically came to that assumption and sent cps to your house, 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:07.040