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Speaker 1: I'm Jason plom, host of Bronful Conviction. Over the years,

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Speaker 1: hundreds of exanneries have told me their stories. Sadly, with

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Speaker 1: the state of our criminal legal system, we're left with

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Speaker 1: far more cases than I can possibly cover alone. So

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Speaker 1: I've asked some exaneries to handle some of those cases,

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Speaker 1: bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could

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Speaker 1: only come from having lived through their own wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 1: This is one of those interviews.

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Speaker 2: In January two thousand and two, Heidi Farah was a

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Speaker 2: young mother living with her boyfriend in Vancouver, Washington. The

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Speaker 2: couple had two children, a five year old daughter and

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Speaker 2: a one year old son. To make a little extra money,

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Speaker 2: she occasionally babysat two other kids, a four year old

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Speaker 2: boy and a fifteen month old girl named Brynn. One night,

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Speaker 2: Heidi was home alone with the four children when her

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Speaker 2: eldest daughter alerted her about something being wrong with Brynn.

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Speaker 2: The fifteen month old girl was shaking and crying, and

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Speaker 2: Heidi comforted and settled her down to sleep. A little

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Speaker 2: while later, though it was obvious that something was seriously wrong.

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Speaker 2: Brynn's eyes had slid open while she slept and she

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Speaker 2: didn't respond when Heidi tried to wake her. Heidi called

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Speaker 2: nine one one. The paramedics took Brynn to the hospital,

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Speaker 2: where she was found to have a fractured leg and

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Speaker 2: bleeding behind her eyes and around her brain. Everything pointed

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Speaker 2: to shaken baby syndrome or SBS, a diagnosis that is

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Speaker 2: also a criminal charge. In SBS cases, the caregiver present

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Speaker 2: is almost always the one charged with abusing the child.

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Speaker 2: Medical studies have shown that there is often a leg

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Speaker 2: from the time of the injury to when the symptoms

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Speaker 2: show up, but the legal system hasn't caught up with

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Speaker 2: those findings. The cause of Brynn's injuries could have happened

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Speaker 2: up to four days before Heidi was watching her, but

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Speaker 2: that didn't matter in the eyes of the law. Brynn

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Speaker 2: would end up permanently blind in one eye and paralyzed

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Speaker 2: on one side of her body. Heidi was charged with

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Speaker 2: first degree assault of a child. She was convicted and

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Speaker 2: sentenced to fifteen years in prison, one year for each

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Speaker 2: month of Brynn's life. This is wrongful conviction. Hi, I'm

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Speaker 2: Amanda Knox and I'll be filling in for Jason today

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Speaker 2: as your guest host. I'm an Exonaree, a previous guest

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Speaker 2: on the show, and I also co host a podcast

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Speaker 2: called Labyrinths. My own wrongful conviction and the years of

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Speaker 2: experience I've gained from working in this space have taught

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Speaker 2: me that taking the simplest answer, the one that would

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Speaker 2: so easily wrap up a tragedy and assigned blame, isn't

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Speaker 2: always the right place one. Criminal investigations, like the world,

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Speaker 2: are full of gray areas, and that is certainly true

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Speaker 2: regarding the crime that my guest, Heidi Pharaoh, was convicted of.

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Speaker 2: Shaken Baby syndrome or SBS. The diagnosis was coined in

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four to describe a triad of symptoms bleeding

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Speaker 2: on the brain, bleeding in the eyes, and brain damage

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Speaker 2: caused by lack of oxygen. It was meant to deter

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Speaker 2: parents from the then normal practice of shaking a crying infant,

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Speaker 2: but afterwards courts used it to prosecute parents and caregivers

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Speaker 2: for child abuse. The so called forensic sciences are actually

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Speaker 2: more of an art, requiring a professional to interpret the

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Speaker 2: data and draw their own conclusion. It is a field

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Speaker 2: of study that's still developing. In the case of sbs.

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Speaker 2: New evidence has shown that the triad of symptoms that

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Speaker 2: show up in such cases are not always caused by

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Speaker 2: actually shaking a baby. There is reason for doubt, and

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Speaker 2: Heidi was caught up in this gray area of medical

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Speaker 2: science and criminal law. I invited Heidi and a member

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Speaker 2: of her legal team, Lara Zarrowsky, who is the executive

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Speaker 2: and policy director of the Washington Innocence Project, to sit

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Speaker 2: down with me. Let's hop right into it, Heidi, So,

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Speaker 2: I understand that your parents were hippies and activists, and

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Speaker 2: growing up you definitely had that alternative lifestyle happening. By

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Speaker 2: the time you were growing up. What kind of life

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Speaker 2: were you hoping for? What did you imagine for yourself?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I had kind of a so my mom

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Speaker 3: was more of this activist, but my dad was a farmer.

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Speaker 3: He's a dirt farmer. He wasn't my biological father, but

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Speaker 3: he's the man that raised me, and he was just

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Speaker 3: a dirt farmer. Very philosophic goal but still just a

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Speaker 3: good old country boy. My grandparents actually retired from the

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Speaker 3: United States for service, and even though they were also liberal,

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Speaker 3: they tended to be a little more traditional and conservative.

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Speaker 3: So I had these dynamics, and even though my mom's

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Speaker 3: life was what she chose at the time, I really

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Speaker 3: pulled away from it as I got older.

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Speaker 2: And so how old were you when the incident that

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Speaker 2: began your wrongful conviction journey? What was happening in your life?

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Speaker 2: Where were you? What was going on?

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Speaker 3: So I was with my ex husband. We had two children,

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Speaker 3: my daughter Rachel, who was I believe four at the time,

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Speaker 3: and my son Derek, who was about a year old.

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Speaker 3: So I was a very young new mother. How old

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Speaker 3: I think that I was twenty three?

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, you were a baby, Wes twenty three.

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Speaker 3: We were just struggling young parents, trying to find our way,

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Speaker 3: trying to establish a life. And I was kind of

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Speaker 3: driving for that, like white picket fence, And because his

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Speaker 3: life had been unstable for him growing up, he was

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Speaker 3: also seeking the same thing. And that's what we felt

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Speaker 3: we had in common at the time. So we were

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Speaker 3: really just trying to establish ourselves. I was home with

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Speaker 3: the kids most of the time. I did work part

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Speaker 3: time at a furniture store and he worked. My ex husband,

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Speaker 3: Dustin worked full time at a machine shop. We were

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Speaker 3: just young trying to establish ourselves.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes you babysat, sometimes I babysap.

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Speaker 3: Yeah I did.

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Speaker 2: And how would you say you felt around kids? Did

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Speaker 2: you like being a mom? Like? What was what was

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Speaker 2: that for you?

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Speaker 3: I absolutely loved being a mother and felt like at

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Speaker 3: a very young age that that was my calling. I

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Speaker 3: loved being around a kids. I did actually try to

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Speaker 3: go to school, which is hard when you have two

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Speaker 3: little children. But I was taking early childhood development with

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Speaker 3: the intention that I knew I had a gift when

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Speaker 3: it came to kind of, you know, being comfortable with

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Speaker 3: kids and you know, being able to kind of like

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Speaker 3: understand developmentally where they were at and how to talk

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Speaker 3: to them. And I wanted to do something with that. However,

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Speaker 3: I didn't have X, my ex husband did not support

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Speaker 3: me to go to school, and I had two young children.

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Speaker 3: So I'm wondering, if.

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Speaker 2: We can now just talk a little bit about what happened,

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Speaker 2: maybe you can set the stage for us, Heidi, where

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Speaker 2: are you? Who are the people who are who are

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Speaker 2: going to be involved and what is your relationship to them?

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Speaker 3: Sure, so we were living I'm Vancouver, Washington and in

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Speaker 3: a townhouse, three bedroom townhouse, and so we were picking

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Speaker 3: up any other kind of income that we could, which

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Speaker 3: is why I started working part time at a furniture store.

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Speaker 3: And he was approached by a man that he worked

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Speaker 3: with at the machine shop and they had became friends,

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Speaker 3: and he let him know that he was looking for

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Speaker 3: childcare for his daughter but also her brother, who was

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Speaker 3: four at the time.

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Speaker 2: And the son's name was Cad and the daughter's name

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Speaker 2: was Brinn Brynn.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so Jason, Brie, Cad and Brynn and my ex

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Speaker 3: husband approached me and gave me the offer, and we

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Speaker 3: thought at the time, we agreed that it was a

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Speaker 3: good idea to get some more income. What I want

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Speaker 3: to say is, even going into it, we kind of

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Speaker 3: had some red flags. You know, there was a lot

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Speaker 3: of adversity between the two of them, and it started

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Speaker 3: to come to me that they'd been having trouble keeping

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Speaker 3: babysitters because of the behavioral problems of Kate, and so

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Speaker 3: once we had said yes, then this information started to

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Speaker 3: kind of trickle out.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, so when we talk about behavior problems, like what

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Speaker 2: kind of stuff are we talking about?

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Speaker 3: Anger? He attempted. It's hard for me to say the

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Speaker 3: four year old would attempt suicide, but he was actually

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Speaker 3: hospitalized for wrapping a cord around his neck and strangling himself.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 3: He became aggressive with my children, and my grandmother was

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Speaker 3: actually with all of the kids. One evening, I had

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Speaker 3: to run to my office for a minute, my part

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Speaker 3: time work office. When I got back, my grandmother was

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Speaker 3: distraught and not happy with the kids, and she was like,

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Speaker 3: You've got to get this boy out of your house.

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Speaker 3: My son had scratch marks up and down his hands

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Speaker 3: and wrists, and my grandmother said he had I had

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Speaker 3: gotten mad at my son who was in his little

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Speaker 3: playpen and had his hands over the top of his

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Speaker 3: hands and was screaming in his face. And when my

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Speaker 3: grandmother went over there to kind of pull them apart,

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Speaker 3: she had to pry his hands off of my son's

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Speaker 3: there's one year old son. One year old son. Wow.

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Speaker 3: So there was just these these things that were becoming

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Speaker 3: increasingly uncomfortable, and I was concerned, and I was telling

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Speaker 3: my ex husband, I'm concerned, like something doesn't feel right

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Speaker 3: to me, something doesn't sit right to me. And my

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Speaker 3: ex husband is very anti getting into anybody's business or

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Speaker 3: involving any kind of authorities, and he just kept telling

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Speaker 3: me I was overreacting and you know, we don't need

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Speaker 3: to worry about it, and.

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Speaker 2: He's for what harm could he do? Right?

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Speaker 3: And and there were increasing bruises and things showing up

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Speaker 3: on Brinn, and when we would ask, we were told

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Speaker 3: she fell off a counter, or you know, he tripped her.

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Speaker 3: He had done this or these increasing things in just

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Speaker 3: a very short period of time two months. I think

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Speaker 3: the final star for me was I had a gate

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Speaker 3: at the bottom of the stairs at our townhouse, and

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Speaker 3: my sister was actually staying with me, and she was

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Speaker 3: downstairs with the kids, and I had ran upstairs, and

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Speaker 3: Brynn would always follow me around the house. She wanted

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Speaker 3: upstairs where I was at. And so she's a hefty

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Speaker 3: little girl, fifteen month old, and she I think was

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Speaker 3: trying to climb over the bottom gate, or at least

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Speaker 3: was pulling on it, and so she had tumbled with

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Speaker 3: it because she actually got it loose. I reported it

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Speaker 3: to her mother when she picked her up, just hey,

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Speaker 3: she might have a little bit of a bruise, but

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Speaker 3: I don't think she got her I don't think she

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Speaker 3: overly hurt herself. Nothing major. The next day, when she

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Speaker 3: was dropped off, she had severe bruises all over her.

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Speaker 3: And when I asked the mother what happened, she said, oh,

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Speaker 3: you told me she felt down the stairs, and I

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Speaker 3: I was you know, I just was like, my sister

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Speaker 3: was there. We know what she looked like when she

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Speaker 3: left the house and it was not like this, and

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Speaker 3: you know, they were new bruises. So I had called Jason,

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Speaker 3: the father and was like, I'm I don't even know

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Speaker 3: what to think, and he's like, she does that all

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Speaker 3: the time. She blames bruises from you know, bruises at

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Speaker 3: my house. And I think at that point I was

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Speaker 3: just like enough and I had told Jason. I told

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Speaker 3: my ex husband, you guys need to find somebody else.

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Speaker 3: I'm not comfortable doing this. And so we basically went

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Speaker 3: into like a work break. My ex husband and Jason

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Speaker 3: had a two week work break for the Christmas holiday,

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Speaker 3: and the understanding was is they would find somebody else

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Speaker 3: during that time.

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Speaker 2: So then what happened.

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Speaker 4: So they tried, they tried to find another babysitter, someone

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Speaker 4: to take care of the kids. And you know, I

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Speaker 4: think that at the time this wasn't known, but putting

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Speaker 4: it together, have the experience that Heidi had not been

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Speaker 4: comfortable continuing to care for these kids because of Kaid's behavior,

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Speaker 4: but they still hadn't found anyone, so sort of as

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Speaker 4: a this is the last time I will take care

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Speaker 4: you know, I'll help you out this time, but you

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Speaker 4: really need to find someone else. On January seventh, the

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Speaker 4: kids were brought back to the house to be cared

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Speaker 4: for by Heidi, and that was that was the evening

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Speaker 4: that all of this process nightmare I think, began for Heidi.

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Speaker 4: So in this evening this was a there were a

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Speaker 4: few things that were unusual about about this. Actually, when

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Speaker 4: when Brinn and Caid were dropped off, Heidi wasn't even

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Speaker 4: home yet. She was actually at work, so it was

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Speaker 4: Dustin that was there that received the kids and actually

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Speaker 4: noted it was strange that when Brynn was brought in,

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Speaker 4: she was brought in in a car seat, and that's

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Speaker 4: not normally how she was brought in, So she was

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Speaker 4: brought in strapped into a car seat and kind of

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Speaker 4: left there and seemed was described as lethargic and sort

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Speaker 4: of distant, and Derek, whose one, was trying to you know,

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Speaker 4: play with her, and she seemed really uncomfortable and her

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Speaker 4: leg was bothering her. She was kind of had a

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Speaker 4: little had a bit of a limp. There was sort

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Speaker 4: of she was not presenting as she normally and I.

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Speaker 3: Want to emphasize we had not seen them in two weeks. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so it'd been a couple of weeks and this was,

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Speaker 3: you know, sort of a one off. Already kind of

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Speaker 3: understanding that this was not a workable situation. So as

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Speaker 3: the evening is going on, the dropped off around the

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Speaker 3: in the afternoon, and then later in the evening, Brynn

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Speaker 3: is in a playpen, so kind of like in a

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Speaker 3: safely downstairs in a playpen, and her brother Kate is

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Speaker 3: there with her, and Rachel is down there too, Rachel

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Speaker 3: and her five year old and Heidi's upstairs giving a

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Speaker 3: bath to Derek, who was one at the time, and

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Speaker 3: so Rachel at five was observing what Caid was doing

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Speaker 3: to his sister. So she had reported that he was

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Speaker 3: jumping on her. That kid was jumping on Brin who

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Speaker 3: was fifteen months old, and was bashing her in the head,

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Speaker 3: hitting her in the head, and so Rachel was alerting

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Speaker 3: Heidi that this was happening, and so she got Derek

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Speaker 3: out of the bath, went downstairs to try to manage

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Speaker 3: what was happening, and actually called Jason to let him know,

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Speaker 3: this is what's been happening. How would you like me

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Speaker 3: to discipline him? When I called Jason, he told me

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Speaker 3: to actually lock Kate in a closet.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. The other thing that I noted that evening was

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Speaker 3: Brynn had very swollen bruises across her abdomen, and when

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Speaker 3: I asked Jason what had happened, he said that Kate

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Speaker 3: had jumped on her from the back of the couch. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And I think it's the one piece. It's maybe one

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Speaker 4: of the most difficult, but I think important for the

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Speaker 4: trajectory of the story is that after Rachel got Heidie's

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Speaker 4: attention and she came downstairs, she found Brent in the playpen,

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Speaker 4: but sort of on her knees and shaking and sort

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Speaker 4: of crying but not in a vocal way. It was

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Speaker 4: just very unusual and incredibly alarming.

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Speaker 3: Clearly, at one point I go, I think I'm on

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Speaker 3: a phone call with a friend. I'm kind of just,

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Speaker 3: you know, circling around the kids. I had been terribly sick,

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Speaker 3: so my house was disaster, and I'm trying to you know,

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Speaker 3: catch up on stuff, clean stuff up, and went to

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Speaker 3: check on her, and I noticed that her eyes were

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Speaker 3: like halfway open. I kind of lean in and I'm

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Speaker 3: just kind of like checking on her. There was just

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Speaker 3: something that like started to like alarm me about her demeanor, and.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember what it was?

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Speaker 3: I feel like her coloring, even though it was kind

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Speaker 3: of dim in there, like her coloring looked off. She

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Speaker 3: just didn't look very responsive. And when I remember very

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Speaker 3: clearly when I kind of went to kind of rouse

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Speaker 3: her a little bit, like her eyelids just slid open

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Speaker 3: all the way and there was just nothing. And at

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Speaker 3: that point, like I think, I through my phone and

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Speaker 3: started trying to like I just went into like there's

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Speaker 3: an emergency happening, So.

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Speaker 2: What did you do?

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Speaker 3: I took her into the kitchen, kind of set her

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Speaker 3: up on the counter in my arms and was trying

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Speaker 3: to splash. I was, you know, everything was happening fast

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Speaker 3: and extremely slow. At the same time, I was trying

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Speaker 3: to kind of get my mind under control to evaluate

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Speaker 3: and at the same time like panicking because I don't

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Speaker 3: understand what's happening, and very quickly realizing that I don't

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Speaker 3: have any kind of training like to deal with this,

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Speaker 3: and my daughter somehow, I don't know if I asked

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Speaker 3: her to get my phone or bring me my phone,

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Speaker 3: but she gets my phone to me and I call

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Speaker 3: my mom because my mom had been a volunteer firefighter,

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Speaker 3: and I'm just like, what do I do? I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, and I think I need to give a

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Speaker 3: little go context as to why I was questioning my

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Speaker 3: reality in that moment. I had suffered from anxiety and

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Speaker 3: kind of overreacting like if my son choked or and

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Speaker 3: my ex husband had really kind of like made me

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Speaker 3: question my own intuitive sense of things when an emergency

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Speaker 3: was happening, because oftentimes I was really truly overreacting, and

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Speaker 3: so I kind of had started to spiral into that

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Speaker 3: like am I crazy this reality actually happening right now?

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Speaker 3: Or am I overreacting? And so I called my mom.

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Speaker 3: I let her know very quickly like what I'm seeing,

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Speaker 3: and she just said, called nine one one, and I

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Speaker 3: immediately called nine one one.

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Speaker 2: And what did they say to do?

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Speaker 3: You know? I cannot even remember. I think the only

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Speaker 3: thing I can remember is I'm telling me someone's on

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Speaker 3: their way.

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Speaker 2: So maybe Laura, you can walk me through what happens next.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So the paramedics do arrive within minutes, so there

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Speaker 4: they're really quickly and they find Brynn unconscious and bruises

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Speaker 4: on her body, which Heidi had observed those as well

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Speaker 4: when she when she first got there. They took her

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Speaker 4: to the hospital and they found that she had retinal hemorrhage,

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Speaker 4: hemorrhaging in both eyes, and also that her leg was fractured,

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Speaker 4: and they so there were there was just I just

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Speaker 4: want to say, there's no question that that Brent experienced

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Speaker 4: really serious injuries. There's no question about that. But she's

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Speaker 4: taken to the hospital and it was the I think

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Speaker 4: the investigation.

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Speaker 3: Did you how soon.

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Speaker 4: Did you learn that they were sort of investigating, because

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Speaker 4: it was months before you were actually so.

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Speaker 3: I knew the next day because CPS came to take

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Speaker 3: my children, Rachel and Derek, and and so we knew

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Speaker 3: the doctors had basically been accusing me or saying that

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Speaker 3: this is the only thing that happened, and she would

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Speaker 3: have been the only one there. We had my children,

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Speaker 3: and just to wrap that up, like, we hired a

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Speaker 3: family law attorney and had my children home in a week.

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Speaker 3: But that initial them coming to take them is when

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Speaker 3: I knew that there was something else going on.

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Speaker 2: I can't even imagine what went through your mind, Like

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Speaker 2: already you're twenty three years old and a child in

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Speaker 2: your care is becomes unresponsive, Like how insanely scary that

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Speaker 2: would be. But for then the next morning, for someone

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Speaker 2: to come and say, we're taking your children away. Can

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Speaker 2: you take me back to that moment, and where were you,

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Speaker 2: what time of day was this, what was your immediate reaction?

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Speaker 3: So we had actually Kate had been left at my

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Speaker 3: house after they took her to the hospital, nobody could

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Speaker 3: find his mother, and then when they did, she obviously

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Speaker 3: went to the hospital, and so we were we waited

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Speaker 3: until like late morning for someone to act come and

360
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Speaker 3: pick him up, and then I just wanted to go

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Speaker 3: to the hospital. That's the only thing I wanted to do.

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Speaker 3: And so we went to the hospital and I actually

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Speaker 3: went back to see her. There were tubes all over

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Speaker 3: and you know, life support or life you know, saving

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00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,440
Speaker 3: measures happening, and bandages around her head. And the last

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Speaker 3: thing I remember of my interaction with her was just

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Speaker 3: grabbing her little feet and like just praying that she

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Speaker 3: was going to come out of this. Really having no

369
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Speaker 3: idea what was Again, like, my reality is just in

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Speaker 3: trauma mode at that moment. So we leave there and

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Speaker 3: I think I went to my grandparents that just was

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Speaker 3: like my safe, comfortable place, and my kids were kind

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Speaker 3: of traumatized as well. I believe it was like eight

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Speaker 3: nine at night. By this time, my ex husband had

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Speaker 3: got back to the house there and they showed up

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Speaker 3: with two police officers and said we are taking the

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Speaker 3: kids into custody. My children had never been away from me.

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Speaker 3: I felt myself start to panic and just like want

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Speaker 3: to freak out, but then at the same time understanding

380
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Speaker 3: like this is completely out of my control and I

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Speaker 3: don't want to freak my kids out. So I was like,

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Speaker 3: I need to do everything I can so that they're

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Speaker 3: not afraid of what's happening right now, and so I

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Speaker 3: cooperated to not scare my children.

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Speaker 2: Hi there, I'm Amanda Knox. After four years in an

386
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Speaker 2: Italian prison for a murder I didn't commit. I know

387
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Speaker 2: what it's like to wind up in a life I

388
00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 2: never expected, even after I was exonerated, and so alone,

389
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,479
Speaker 2: like no one would ever understand me I was wrong.

390
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 2: We're all navigating our own personal mazes. That's what my

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00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 2: podcast labyrinth is about. Along with my partner Christopher Robinson,

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00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 2: I'm telling stories about infertility, psychedelics, wrongful conviction, and wild adventure.

393
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 2: Every episode of Labyrinths is different, some heart wrenching, some hilarious,

394
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 2: with guests that run the gamut from comedians to dominatrixes,

395
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 2: to mountain climbers to scientists. But what's always true is

396
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 2: that labyrinth gets real. We go to the hard places,

397
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Speaker 2: ask big philosophical questions, and create an immersive narrative experience.

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00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 2: So please get lost with us. Subscribe to Labyrinths wherever

399
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 2: you listen. I wonder that first night, when they just

400
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: automatically came to that assumption and sent cps to your house,

401
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: did anyone bother to tell them what might have led

402
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 2: to Brin's injuries? That wasn't just blatant abuse from her caregiver.

403
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 3: I think at the time, the way that lucid intervals

404
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 3: were mean accepted, and there hadn't been any additional studies

405
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 3: at the time, nothing else mattered, like it had to

406
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 3: have happened in these hours, and it would have had

407
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 3: to have happened by an adult, and therefore she was

408
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 3: the only adult and so this is what happened. I

409
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 3: think that's right.

410
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 4: I think there's the state had somewhere in the neighborhood

411
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 4: of six medical experts doing testimony during the trial saying,

412
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Speaker 4: there's no way that these injuries could have been inflicted

413
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Speaker 4: by a child, by a four year old child. There

414
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Speaker 4: is no way that after sustaining these injuries that this

415
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 4: child could remain lucid, they would lose consciousness, There's no way.

416
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 4: So all of these really conclusive pieces of testimony were

417
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 4: presented during trial in a way that does seem compelling. Right,

418
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 4: This is sort of the roadmap to a wrongful conviction

419
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 4: in SBS cases that whomever is with the child at

420
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Speaker 4: the time that the symptoms are presenting, which is not

421
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 4: necessarily connected with they're not contemporaneous injuries necessarily, they could

422
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 4: have happened up to days before, and in fact, you

423
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Speaker 4: just don't know in many cases. I think in the

424
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Speaker 4: testimony with regard to the fracture in Brin's leg, it

425
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Speaker 4: was estimated that the injury happened sometime between one hour

426
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Speaker 4: and four days earlier. So that is a pretty tremendous range, especially,

427
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 4: you know, and so if the common wisdom is this

428
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 4: it also is you know, I think not to go

429
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 4: too far up tangent, but I think it's really relevant

430
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Speaker 4: to how decision making is made in these moments that

431
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 4: this sort of folk wisdom that the simplest explanation is

432
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 4: usually the right one is an incredibly dangerous notion because

433
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 4: the world is complicated and dynamic, and sometimes the thing

434
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 4: that appears to be what just happened is not what

435
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 4: just happened. So but there is a definite draw and

436
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 4: temptation to go with whatever seems most logical and easiest

437
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 4: to understand. And while that person was with her right

438
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 4: before these injuries, therefore this person inflicted these injuries, and

439
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 4: they don't really look too far outside to what those

440
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 4: alternate explanations may be. And I think in this case

441
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 4: it's especially dynamic in the sense that it's very likely

442
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 4: that the injuries were inflicted, at least in part by

443
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 4: a five year old child. Clearly it was it was

444
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 4: a vicious adult and not a child with behavior issues.

445
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 4: Right like that, it's just the easier conclusion to draw, right,

446
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 4: it's more comfortable.

447
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: And the one where we can attribute blame.

448
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 4: Exactly where were.

449
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: You when you were charged? Do you remember how it felt.

450
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 3: I think that I just got something in the mail

451
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 3: that basically said that they were filing those charges.

452
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 2: What about Brinn's parents? Had you been in contact with

453
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 2: them ever since that day or the phone call between

454
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: Dustin and Jason where he was accusing you. Had you

455
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 2: heard from them at all?

456
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 3: No? Nothing, nothing at all?

457
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 2: Wow?

458
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 3: So I think I want to touch back on why,

459
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 3: you know, why did it take the investigators so long

460
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 3: to charge me? And again I'm assuming, but I like

461
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 3: to think that they were actually like questioning this narrative.

462
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 3: But when you have that many doctors telling you this

463
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 3: is the only way, and you, as parents, you have

464
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 3: six doctors or however many it was telling you this

465
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 3: is the only way, and when you're in a position

466
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 3: where you're experiencing a trauma, you want to blame mm hmm.

467
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 2: Okay, So let's talk about the trial. I wonder if

468
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 2: you can give me a brief brief synopsis of what happened,

469
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 2: and of course, if you have any you know, memories

470
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 2: or anything that you want to offer, I think that

471
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 2: would that would be great. Can you talk about the

472
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: trial and what went down?

473
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: Yeah?

474
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 4: I think you know, the trial is pretty straightforward. The

475
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 4: state had a theory they did. As I mentioned earlier,

476
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 4: the state spun a few different theories on the reasons

477
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 4: that Heidi would be aggressive with Brnn, that she was crying,

478
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 4: that Heidi just lost her temper, that there were all

479
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 4: of these different factors that there was no testimony to.

480
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 4: This was you know, no one was there with Heidi

481
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 4: as she was watching the children, So it wasn't based

482
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 4: in anything except just being a theory that would help

483
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 4: the jury to say, oh, yeah, I could see how

484
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 4: that could happen, right, because Heidi didn't have at any

485
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 4: history at all of being aggressive or inappropriate or in

486
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 4: any way anything other than just thoroughly nurturing with children

487
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 4: and had a very very extensive experience doing that and

488
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 4: children of her own, with no experience with CPS, none

489
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 4: of these things. And so they kind of had to

490
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 4: if they were going to sell the story that was

491
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 4: the narrative. And again, you know, they had I think

492
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 4: a total of six medical professionals testifying about what must

493
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 4: have happened and how this wouldn't have presented at the trial.

494
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 4: There were and correct me if I'm wrong, Heidi, but

495
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 4: I don't believe there were any medical professionals testifying on

496
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 4: your behalf, Is that right?

497
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: Was?

498
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 4: It was more or less just trying to chip away

499
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 4: at what the state was presenting. And so even though

500
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 4: in two thousand and three, there likely would have been,

501
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 4: you know, some doctors who would have testified, No, there's

502
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 4: other ways that this could have happened that was not

503
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 4: presented at trial. So it was really just sort of

504
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 4: trying to defend against the the emotion of you know,

505
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 4: sort of presenting these really extensive injuries to this fifteen

506
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 4: month old and all of their different, various explanations for

507
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 4: how that could have happened.

508
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: You know, you weren't the only one in that house

509
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: that night. Did the kids testify? Yes, And what did

510
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: they say?

511
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 3: Going back to the week that they took the kids

512
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,959
Speaker 3: from the home and put them in foster care, Rachel

513
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 3: was repeating even then to the foster care mother what

514
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 3: had happened and what she had seen. Her story never wavered,

515
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 3: so when she testified, it was the same thing kind

516
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 3: of what she had witnessed that night and Kaid's behavior.

517
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 3: And Caid testified as well. His story changed multiple times,

518
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 3: And this is the part where I screamed internally during

519
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 3: the trial. When he was testifying, they asked him a question.

520
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 3: My attorney asked him a question about what he was

521
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 3: doing in the playpen, and he just said she wasn't breathing,

522
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 3: and so he had memory of something occurring that night.

523
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 3: And I felt like it was like this major moment

524
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 3: during the trial, like do you guys hear him like,

525
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 3: but nothing ever came out of it, but his story. Yes,

526
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 3: I mean he was kind of even, you know, the

527
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 3: judge had to get on him to, you know, answer

528
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 3: the questions. But these are children, right.

529
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 2: So you mentioned that the defense did not bring forward

530
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: any medical professionals who could speak about alternate reasons or

531
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: methods that Brin could have sustained these injuries, and that

532
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,239
Speaker 2: really was what ultimately the case came down to. Do

533
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: you remember when you heard guilty?

534
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 3: When they said guilty, it just kind of it was

535
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 3: like the nail in the coffin. I think I had

536
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 3: already been laying in the coffin for the last year

537
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 3: before the trial, and that was just the nail that

538
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 3: sealed it. I remember being pulled out into the hallway.

539
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 3: I remember I was hysterical. I was crying. I could

540
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 3: barely stand up. I had heard my mom gasping and

541
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 3: breaking down into sobs behind me. I remember running into

542
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 3: a juror in the hallway and she started crying. She

543
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 3: was waiting for the elevator, and my ex husband took

544
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 3: me down the stairs. We went straight to my attorney's office,

545
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 3: which was a few blocks so I sat in his

546
00:32:54,360 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 3: office on the floor, sobbing and didn't understand what really

547
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 3: any of this meant. But I felt doomed. I just

548
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 3: felt absolutely doomed.

549
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: What was your sentence?

550
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 3: Originally it was I believe fifteen years, but they re

551
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 3: appealed that and we won on appeal because they weren't

552
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 3: able to actually inflict that. I say inflict because that's

553
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 3: how I feel, and so it was reduced to ten.

554
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 3: And then one thing I will not ever forget about

555
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: the sentencing was the judge. My judge stated that he's

556
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 3: not at all convinced of my guilt, but that he

557
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 3: has to honor the verdict of the jury. Wow, and

558
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 3: I just thought, how can he say he's not convinced

559
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 3: and still sentence me right now?

560
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 2: So I understand you didn't immediately go to prison. Why

561
00:33:59,440 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: was that.

562
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 3: My judge, with all of his weird reasons he denied

563
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 3: the prosecution or the state's request to do that, and

564
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 3: he denied their requests to separate me from my other children,

565
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,439
Speaker 3: and he granted me an appeal bond to remain home

566
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 3: with my children while we appealed the case.

567
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: That's pretty extraordinary. Have you ever heard of that?

568
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 4: It is extraordinary. I've heard of it, not in any

569
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 4: of our other cases. I've certainly heard of it, but

570
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 4: rarely it is. And I do think it speaks to

571
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 4: the hesitation that the judge had, and also clearly the

572
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 4: judge not being concerned and in fact prioritizing Heidi spending

573
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 4: more time with her children.

574
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 3: I was pregnant. I should have mentioned that I was

575
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 3: pregnant with my youngest son, Dylan during the trial.

576
00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, so you appealed. The appeal was successful in

577
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: a way. It reduced the sentence, but it did not

578
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 2: overturn your conviction.

579
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 3: Correct, And it took about three years.

580
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 2: So were you hoping three years two thousand and six

581
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: during the appeals process. Did any part of you think like,

582
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: this next go around, they're going to figure out that

583
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 2: this is all a big mistake.

584
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 3: No, I completely I completely shrunk away from what was happening.

585
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:44,959
Speaker 3: I was pregnant. I just kind of like built up

586
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: this little burrow or dun or walls or whatever you

587
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 3: want to call it, and tried to push the case

588
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 3: out on the other side. I just wanted to I

589
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 3: never lost the sense of doom. I stopped. I continued

590
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 3: to think, they're coming for me, is just a matter

591
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 3: of when, not if, and I'm just going to be

592
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: a mom. And I did that for three years, and

593
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 3: then what happened, Well, the appeals was lost, and we

594
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 3: started talking about that I would have to turn myself

595
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 3: in and start serving the sentence.

596
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: How did you like What were those conversations like with

597
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 2: your family and specifically with your kids.

598
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 3: When I realized that it was imminent and that I

599
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 3: was going to have to say goodbye. My boys were

600
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 3: too young to really understand, and so my daughter was nine.

601
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 3: I went for a drive with her, intending to kind

602
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 3: of take her somewhere and explain to her that mommy

603
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 3: was going to have to go away. But I couldn't

604
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 3: even make it to anyone. I had no idea where

605
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 3: to take her, so I just pulled over on the

606
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 3: side of the road and told her that sometimes when

607
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,720
Speaker 3: her and her brothers fight. Sometimes we don't know who

608
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 3: is telling the truth and who isn't, and sometimes we

609
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 3: get it wrong, and that the system had gotten it wrong,

610
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 3: and that I was going to have to go away.

611
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 3: What did she say? She started crying. She asked me

612
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 3: for how long? She asked me if she would be

613
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 3: able to see me. I once I started to reassure

614
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 3: her that those things would happen. Kids are resilient. She

615
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 3: just wanted to know if she's going to be able

616
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 3: to see me? Really, and I think I just started

617
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,919
Speaker 3: talking about, you know, what I would do to make

618
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 3: sure she wasn't alone, to the point where I saw

619
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 3: a book walking through like target that said the Caring

620
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 3: Keeping of You, realizing that I wasn't couldn't be there

621
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 3: to talk to her about things that girls need their

622
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 3: mothers therefore, and it was like this book was just

623
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 3: sitting on the shelf explaining all of that. I bought

624
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 3: it for her and took it home to her.

625
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 2: What was it like to raise your children from afar?

626
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 3: I became something else. My focus was I didn't care

627
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 3: how incommunion it made anything else for anybody out there.

628
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 3: I mean, I was going to bull doze my way

629
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 3: through anything and anything to have access to my children

630
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 3: and for them to have access to me. I called home.

631
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 3: I don't I can't remember a day I didn't call

632
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 3: home when my son I just I think the person,

633
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 3: this quiet, more naive person, really became a lot fiercer

634
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 3: trying to pave a way for me to just be

635
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 3: still parent from inside.

636
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 2: So you had to serve your full sentence. It did.

637
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 3: Science doesn't move quickly.

638
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, when were you released?

639
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 3: Twenty fourteen?

640
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: What was that like for you?

641
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 3: Nothing that I thought it would look like.

642
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, talk to me. What were you thinking it

643
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 2: was going to look like?

644
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 3: You know? I think I had spent the first two

645
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 3: thirds just imagining returning to that life. My husband and I,

646
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 3: you know, we were married, we had bought a home,

647
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,439
Speaker 3: we had dug in and survived the whole time. We'd

648
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 3: gotten the kids through this, and I was just going

649
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 3: to go home and pick up those pieces and keep going.

650
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 3: And then twenty thirteen, a year before I would have

651
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 3: came home, I was diagnosed with stage two breast cancer

652
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 3: and went through every piece of treatment that they will

653
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 3: inflict on you, because that's also inflicted. And things started

654
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 3: to change between my husband my then husband and I

655
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 3: I and we were never meant for each other. We

656
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 3: were young when we got together, and I think that

657
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 3: those pieces started to unravel, that, you know, and the

658
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 3: cancer just really became an even more driving wedge. My values,

659
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 3: my purposes, my desires, my experience was so much more

660
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:15,720
Speaker 3: advanced than him at that point, the things I didn't

661
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 3: want to take for granted, the life I wanted to live,

662
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 3: And the more we had these conversations, the more intimidated

663
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 3: he was by them. And so by the time I

664
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 3: released in twenty fourteen, we had almost become estranged, and

665
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 3: so when I came home, it was an understanding that

666
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 3: we were more than likely going to be divorcing. I

667
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 3: didn't go to our house. I released to my mother's,

668
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 3: and we just continued to deteriorate after in that first year.

669
00:41:52,880 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 2: Gosh, not that you know, movie moment that people am

670
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 2: or hope for. How did it feel to pick up

671
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 2: the pieces in that kind of environment?

672
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 3: Brutal? I very quickly realized I didn't know my kids's

673
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 3: daily routines, that no matter how fiercely I stayed involved

674
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 3: from inside, there were still so many gaps.

675
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 2: How old were they?

676
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 3: There were nine five and two when I went in,

677
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 3: and seventeen thirteen and ten when I came home. So

678
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 3: my ten year old didn't even remember me being home.

679
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 3: He only knew me from inside the prison.

680
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 2: How did they react to you coming home?

681
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 3: Initially happy, but it was all very overshadowed by the

682
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 3: separation between their father and I. It's like we had

683
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 3: held it together that whole time, and then we're completely

684
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 3: falling apart at the end. And my kids went through

685
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 3: the that was more trauma than the prison sends. To

686
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 3: be honest. I know it's difficult to say that, but

687
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 3: they've never recovered fully from their father and I is divorce.

688
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I also imagine it's like it's the straw

689
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 2: on the camel's back kind of thing. That's like, you've

690
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 2: I've already gone through this and then but of course

691
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 2: life is complicated and you can't control that. Laura, what

692
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: was the turning point in Heidi's case?

693
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 4: Boy, I think that the well interesting. I think that

694
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 4: the turning point in terms of the science, in terms

695
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 4: of what would make relief possible. I think we're still turning. Frankly,

696
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 4: we've basically we're waiting for some more published studies you

697
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 4: can kind of like see where that you can see

698
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 4: it on the horizon, But if you're not there yet,

699
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 4: then there's not going to be anything that constitutes newly

700
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,919
Speaker 4: discovered evidence that allows you to get back into that case.

701
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 4: And that's act still what we ended up facing when

702
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 4: it came to Heidie's case. That and we finally had

703
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 4: our own medical experts.

704
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: Yes, there you go. I want to know more about that,

705
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: Like it seems like if only you had had a

706
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 2: medical expert with you at your first trial. Who were

707
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 2: these experts, how did you find them and what was

708
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,919
Speaker 2: their position on the facts of your case.

709
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 3: Doctor Patrick Barnes was found first, and he had become

710
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 3: an outspoken advocate against the diagnosis, and he was difficult

711
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 3: to get I know that he I don't know if

712
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 3: he agreed initially to take the case, but finally, after

713
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 3: a lot of nudging, he did. And then doctor op

714
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 3: Haven came on as well, and I you know, I

715
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 3: think they were heroes to me. I'll never forget getting

716
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 3: some documents from you know, my attorneys while I was

717
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 3: still inside from doctor op Haven where she just said

718
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 3: in her medical professional opinion that these injuries had occurred

719
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 3: or whatever. It was that had occurred, had happened so

720
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 3: many hours before that it wasn't possible that this had

721
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 3: happened at my home. And it was the like just

722
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 3: feeling validated for the first time ever seeing those words

723
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:26,280
Speaker 3: on paper.

724
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 2: Did you think, Like, I think one of the things

725
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: that maybe people don't appreciate is that at for someone

726
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 2: who served out their entire sentences, you were freed, but

727
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 2: you weren't free. You were a convicted dellain. Yeah, and

728
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: so the first maybe hint of hope that you might

729
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 2: go back to the life that you deserved was having

730
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 2: somebody somewhere say, actually, this not only is not her fault,

731
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 2: it can't be her fault.

732
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 3: I think it was the first time that like I

733
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 3: actually did have hope that something could turn around, that

734
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 3: somebody was on my side. And I don't mean like

735
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 3: my attorneys or my family, but like somebody actually saw

736
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 3: the truth.

737
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: So how did that manifest itself? Did these experts go

738
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 2: into court and throw down their paperwork and say get

739
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 2: this lady out of this battled down?

740
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 3: How did this work out? Yeah?

741
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 4: You know, we've got a number of clients that are

742
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 4: in well, a couple of clients that are in this

743
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 4: situation or part of our freedom exonerated family that had

744
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 4: to serve their entire sentence before any kind of relief

745
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 4: was granted in their case. And so we had filed

746
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 4: with Chris Barrett and with our staff attorneys had filed

747
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 4: what's Washington State's version of habeas, which is called a

748
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 4: personal restraint petition. So we had filed that we called

749
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 4: a PRP. We had filed that with the new evidence

750
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 4: of the change in science. So we've got these experts

751
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 4: now who are coming in. This is the newly discovered evidence.

752
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 4: As we were framing it, we should Heidi should be

753
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 4: able to is entitled to a new trial because there's

754
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 4: now this testimony, the evidence that was presented at her trial.

755
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 4: There's now this ability to you know, to challenge that

756
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 4: and cause into question the conviction itself.

757
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 2: And so so WHOA, that's a that's a big deal.

758
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 3: That's huge.

759
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:34,439
Speaker 2: So what does that mean?

760
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 3: That's huge?

761
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 4: So it means that for legal purposes, So a lot

762
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 4: of people have this question in the post conviction realm, Well,

763
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 4: if she already served her sentence, doesn't mean that doesn't

764
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 4: that mean that double jeopardy, you know, would attach and

765
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 4: you can't you can't now face any kind of no,

766
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 4: because when a conviction is overturned, they vacate the conviction

767
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 4: and it's as if legally, as if it never happened.

768
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 4: And so it puts you if she were to theoretically

769
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 4: be tried again and convicted again and be sent since

770
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 4: the credit for the time she's already served would apply, right.

771
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 4: But there is also the possibility that if there were

772
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 4: some in some scenarios, there's a possibility that an aggravating

773
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 4: factor could be added if they have new information. And

774
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 4: so in another of our clients cases, Ted Bradford, that

775
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 4: was something that they were They charged him with an

776
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 4: aggravating circumstance. So even though it'd served as trial, they

777
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,399
Speaker 4: retried him and he could have gone back for more.

778
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 4: So this is just there's it's not that there's no

779
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 4: risk after being out of custody, right, So there's there's

780
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 4: still sort of jeopardy that still can attach in that way.

781
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,280
Speaker 4: So the Court of Appeals did said yes, she's entitled

782
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 4: to a new trial, and then the state appealed.

783
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 2: So just so we're clear, the appeals court vacated her

784
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 2: conviction yes, and said you're entitled to a new trial,

785
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 2: the prosecution comes in and says no.

786
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 3: Yes, rewind. The appellate court vacated the conviction because this

787
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 3: date showed up with no argument. They didn't challenge my innocence.

788
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 3: They said I filed too late. Ah, so they had

789
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 3: nothing to show up and argue as to, basically showing

790
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 3: that they don't even have any evidence any longer.

791
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, So I was.

792
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 3: Pregnant again in the middle of all of this with

793
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 3: my daughter Vanna, and you know, just kind of enjoying life,

794
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 3: living life, knowing that we were, you know, in this

795
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 3: victory path. And then some pictures were sent to my

796
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 3: attorneys with no message, no notes attached, and they were

797
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 3: photos of me pregnant taken from my Facebook page, one

798
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 3: with my dog and just one with me kind of

799
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 3: you know, with my tummy. And my attorneys at the

800
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 3: time I met the Innocence Project felt threatened by these

801
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 3: photos sent by the prosecutor's office.

802
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: They were sent by the prosecutor's office. Yes, wait, wait,

803
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 2: wait wait, the prosecutor's office went onto your Facebook page

804
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 2: and like a weird stalk or creeper dude printed them

805
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 2: out and then sent them to the Innocence Project without explanation.

806
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, if I remember correctly, they were like in a

807
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 3: packet of like other legal papers. But there was no

808
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 3: reason why they would be in there.

809
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 2: That is bizarre. That is so bizarre. Okay, so what

810
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 2: do you do with that?

811
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 3: So my attorneys took it as a threat. You know,

812
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 3: here I am trying to enjoy my pregnancy. I'm trying

813
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 3: to do all the things that everybody does to just

814
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,359
Speaker 3: kind of you know, celebrate it. And the next thing

815
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 3: I know, I'm getting a call. We need you to

816
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 3: shut down all your social media. We're hiring you a

817
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 3: family law attorney. We're worried that they're going to come

818
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 3: and take the baby from the hospital. Oh oh god,

819
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 3: they weren't going to let me.

820
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 1: Just be.

821
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 3: What went through your mind? It felt like burning down

822
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 3: the world. I felt silenced again that they weren't just

823
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 3: going to let me be. So I felt intimidated that

824
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 3: they were trying to get me to quit fighting. So

825
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 3: I met with a family law attorney. And you know,

826
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 3: we knew that once we were in front of family court,

827
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 3: like there would be a not you know, that it

828
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 3: wouldn't be an issue. But and they knew that, but

829
00:51:56,719 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 3: just to be vindictive, and take her initially and make

830
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 3: us jump through those hoops.

831
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 2: So what was it like when you finally were giving

832
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 2: birth to Havana.

833
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I feel like I had kind of gone

834
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 3: back in a bubble. Like I felt like I came

835
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 3: out of out of it for a minute and felt,

836
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 3: you know, like I was living in truth and living

837
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 3: in victory and living in all those things. And then

838
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 3: that just kind of forced me back into this protective bubble.

839
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 3: And so I'm just, you know, I just want to

840
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 3: have my baby. I just want to like, you know,

841
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 3: and thankfully nothing came at the hospital.

842
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 2: But were you scared?

843
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 3: I was scared. Yeah. It was not out of my

844
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:51,280
Speaker 3: mind for one minute, and and I was extremely uncomfortable

845
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 3: and even outraged and having to sit there and watch

846
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 3: SBS videos and you know, sign paperwork, and just even

847
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 3: though I knew this was a routine, it felt personal. Yeah. Yeah.

848
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 3: And I couldn't. Yeah, I just I couldn't even fathom

849
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 3: going back to a trial. I couldn't fathom being taken

850
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 3: away from another child. I couldn't. It wasn't that I

851
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 3: just couldn't fathom it. I couldn't bear it. Yeah.

852
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like you've your one laser focus throughout

853
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 2: this entire thing is that your kids are everything for

854
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:42,439
Speaker 2: you and that you would do nothing to risk being

855
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 2: away from them.

856
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 4: And the cost of that has been, you know, for

857
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 4: Heidi having to be in this limbo where you know,

858
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 4: we're basically, you know, at this moment, don't poke the bear.

859
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,879
Speaker 4: You know, what would happen if if, right now, if

860
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 4: Heidi we were to move forward filing a you know,

861
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:05,800
Speaker 4: claim for post conviction compensation, What would happen?

862
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 2: Right What would happen if.

863
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,720
Speaker 4: We filed emotion with the State Supreme Court to clarify

864
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 4: what this ruling means. Since there's no majority, you know,

865
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,400
Speaker 4: there's since there's there's not a majority opinion that everyone

866
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 4: signed on to. What would it all mean? And those

867
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 4: are things that could be explored at any time. But

868
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 4: the cost benefit for Heidi is the is the real

869
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 4: tragedy there? I think that keeps it, that keeps it going.

870
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think people don't understand this about the

871
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:42,720
Speaker 2: criminal justice system, that one it could be so weirdly unresolved.

872
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 2: We have this idea that it's black and white. It

873
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 2: either is or it isn't. And we also like to

874
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 2: think that you know, you just you you fight until

875
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 2: you win, and it's like, well at what cost?

876
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, this crazy limbo? And I think for me, you know,

877
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 3: after I made that decision and a couple you know,

878
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 3: another year went by, the decision to back off, to

879
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 3: bring my baby home and just tuck in, something else

880
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:29,799
Speaker 3: started like developing inside of me. And I think it

881
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 3: was a little rebellious. It was like fuck them, Like

882
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:35,760
Speaker 3: why do I need their approval?

883
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 2: What?

884
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 3: Like I know who I am. And it started to

885
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 3: become unimportant for me to even continue fighting. And maybe

886
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 3: it was driven out of fear, but like I just

887
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 3: started thinking like I'm not going to stop talking and

888
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 3: I'm not going to stop telling the world what they

889
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,879
Speaker 3: have done to me, and I don't need their seal

890
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 3: of approval, like they're going to know this is how

891
00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 3: I have to live, that, this is what the position

892
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 3: and they've done to me, the fear that they drive

893
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 3: into me, And I started realizing, like there's so many

894
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 3: of us like that that I need to be a

895
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 3: voice for that.

896
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 2: Speaking of how do you move forward from this? What

897
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 2: have you been doing well?

898
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 3: From that place? I just refused to let them keep

899
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 3: me silent any longer. And you know, I really started

900
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 3: to realize that I have this gift of connecting with

901
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 3: others and really drawing people out into wanting, you know,

902
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 3: to live life, because you know, that's all we can do.

903
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 3: And so in twenty twenty one, I became the client

904
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:53,879
Speaker 3: support coordinator for the Washington Innocence Project and I'm now

905
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 3: one of five directly impacted staff members of an organization

906
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 3: across the country. So that basically we just continue to

907
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 3: grow our support of each other to really truly become

908
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 3: a network or a nation of freedom, exonerated persons who

909
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 3: are there for each other, backed by the organizations and

910
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 3: the network.

911
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 2: Well, I've talked to you guys's head off, So I

912
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 2: think the one thing I want to ask to wrap

913
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 2: all of this up is you both are very passionate,

914
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 2: very busy people who work within this world. And I'm

915
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 2: sure a lot of people who are listening are wondering

916
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,959
Speaker 2: how can I help? And there's a lot of need

917
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 2: kind of scattered all over the place because we're human

918
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 2: beings in this world is very messy as it turns out,

919
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 2: So how can people who are listening support the work

920
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 2: you're doing, Heidi, and the support that you're doing Laura,

921
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 2: how can they come to the aid of directly impacted

922
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 2: people but also their families.

923
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,479
Speaker 3: The first thing that I'm going to say is, don't

924
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 3: come unless you genuinely can follow through with what you're offering,

925
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,200
Speaker 3: because that hurts us the most. We have so many

926
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 3: people that hear our stories or you know, hear what

927
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 3: the you know, the attorneys talk about what's happening, and

928
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 3: they want to get involved, and they you know, they

929
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 3: feel it in the moment. But then when we follow through,

930
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 3: you know, hunting down these offers, sometimes they just completely

931
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 3: ghost us. And that just you know, that's a waste

932
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 3: of time when I'm trying to find out if you're

933
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 3: going to help us or not, or help our my peers,

934
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 3: our clients. So don't come if you're not genuine The

935
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 3: things that we need are endless, the things, you know,

936
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 3: the resources. We need, dental work, we need medical care,

937
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 3: we need we need massages, we need you know, we

938
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 3: need people, We need therapy, we need you know, we

939
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 3: need the opportunity, you know, if you're a skydiver, take

940
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 3: us skydiving. We need to heal, and we need to

941
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 3: be physically taken care of, and we need houses, and

942
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 3: we need jobs, and we need financial support, support as

943
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 3: in how to budget. There's just so many things that

944
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 3: we're behind in because of the time away from society

945
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:38,439
Speaker 3: that we're going to always be playing catch up. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Echo.

946
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 4: And I'm so glad Heidi that you said, don't show

947
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 4: up unless you're unless you mean it, because it is

948
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 4: a responsibility to offer support. The one thing you always

949
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 4: have is your voice. And the world is absolutely run

950
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 4: by the people who show up. And showing up in

951
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 4: this space means calling your legislator. Call it you're in

952
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 4: Wash It's leg dot Waduck gov. Every state legislator has

953
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:06,440
Speaker 4: a website. Find out by your address who your legislator is,

954
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 4: and let them know that this is an issue that

955
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 4: you care about. You want accountability and prosecutions. You want

956
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 4: the truth to matter, not just saying we got it

957
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 4: right and the jury over upheld it and we're just

958
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 4: going to look the other way. Legislators don't understand, even

959
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 4: in places like Washington that are supposed to be liberal,

960
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 4: we're not. We're very purple, very very purple. They don't

961
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 4: think it's a voter's issue. They don't think that this

962
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 4: is something that voters really care about So if you

963
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 4: react viscerally to that statement like I do, call your

964
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 4: legislators and make sure they know it's something that matters

965
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 4: to you, and tell everyone that you know to do

966
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:40,560
Speaker 4: the same.

967
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 2: I can't thank you enough for coming all the way

968
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 2: out to my home to spend all this time with

969
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 2: me talking about the worst experience of your life.

970
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 3: I get it.

971
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 2: I get it, Heidi, And I'm sorry. All right, should

972
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 2: we go play with our kids or something.

973
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 3: Let's go do that.

974
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 4: I need to hold a baby, a baby.

975
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host,

976
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 2: Amanda Knox. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason

977
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 2: Flamm and Kevin Wardis. The Senior producer for this episode

978
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 2: is Jackie Paully, and our producers are Lyla Robinson and

979
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 2: Jeff Clyburn. Our editor is Roxandra Guiedy. The music in

980
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 2: this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

981
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

982
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 2: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

983
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 2: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

984
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 2: all three platforms, you can also follow me Amanda Knox

985
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 2: at Amanda Knox on Twitter and at a Mamma Knox

986
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 2: on Instagram. You can listen to my podcast Labyrinths wherever

987
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 2: you get your podcasts. Wrongful Conviction is a production of

988
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 2: Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one.

989
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction,

990
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,120
Speaker 1: Laura and iRider returns to Wrongful Conviction to interview Herman

991
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 1: Williams about the murder of his ex wife and the

992
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 1: fabricated confession that landed Herman in prison for twenty nine years.

993
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 1: Herman was only recently released in September twenty twenty two,

994
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:39,439
Speaker 1: and this is an emotional conversation about a family torn

995
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: apart and the many lives that were ruined by this

996
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: egregious miscarriage of justice. Laura is one of the top

997
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 1: attorneys in the Wrongful Conviction space, bar nun and a

998
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 1: freedom fighter who lives and breathes to do this work.

999
01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 1: Listen next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed