1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there, 2 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. 3 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: I'm an executive producer with iHeart Podcasts and how the 4 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: tech are you? So? This morning I was thinking, as 5 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: I often do, about artificial intelligence and how quickly various 6 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: people and companies are rushing to apply AI to just 7 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 1: about everything. And this isn't exactly new. It would be 8 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: naive and reductive to say it. We're so Researchers have 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: been developing AI for decades, with a focus on different 10 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: aspects of AI throughout the ages generative AI, while splashy 11 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,319 Speaker 1: is really just one of the more recent implementations that 12 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: have has caught our attention. So while we can't say 13 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: that AI has exactly crept up on us, the push 14 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: to make use of AI, when one could argue we 15 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: don't even have a full appreciation for what it can do, 16 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: both in good and bad scenarios, means that we're being 17 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: a little premature. And this actually reminds me of shoe stores. 18 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: Now that's a pretty big leap, but I promise I'm 19 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: going somewhere. I'm sure you've all heard the phrase history 20 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: repeats itself, or maybe the slightly more florid version. Those 21 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Well, 22 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: once upon a time there was an era in which 23 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: people made use of a powerful technology for a trivial purpose, 24 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: and many people potentially paid the price for that decision. 25 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: This is just one example. Obviously, there are lots of others, 26 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: some of which are famous enough to have had entire 27 00:01:55,280 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: documentaries made about their stories. But I am talking about 28 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: when shoe salespeople were regularly irradiated as part of their job. Okay, 29 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: so let's set the scene, and it's the last decade 30 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century, eighteen ninety five in fact, and 31 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: a German smarty pants by the name of Wilhelm Konrad 32 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: Runtgen was working as the director of the Physical Institute 33 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: at the University of Fursburg. Now I don't mean he 34 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: was working at a physical school and other people were, 35 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: I don't know, working in some sort of philosophically hypothetical 36 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: school that would be putting discartes before the horse. Rather, 37 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 1: I mean Runtgen specialized in physics. In the eighteen nineties, 38 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: he was experimenting with a fairly new technology. What essentially 39 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: was a cathode ray tube or CRT. This is the 40 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: technology that would later be responsible for producing images in 41 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: old television sets, the big, boxy kind that you might 42 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: remember from decades ago. Runtgn was studying how high voltage 43 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: electricity could pass through low vacuum tubes, like essentially a 44 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: cathode ray tube. Now, the story goes that one day 45 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: he was shutting things down for the evening in his 46 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: lab and he noticed something peculiar. So he had covered 47 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: the cathode tube with a piece of black cardboard, and 48 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: when he powered up the tube and turned off the light, 49 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: he saw that there was something glowing in his lab. 50 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: So he investigates and he discovers the glowing is coming 51 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: from a piece of paper that has a coating of 52 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: barium platinu cyanide on it, and that this is what 53 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: was glowing in the dark, and it was several feet 54 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: away from the tube, which again was covered by black cardboard. 55 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: It was far enough away from the tube that Runkan 56 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: thought the tube would not be able to illuminate this 57 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: particular piece of paper. Moreover, there was some sort of 58 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:19,119 Speaker 1: energy outside of visible light happening here, something that could 59 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: stimulate the barium platinus cyanide to fluoresce and something that 60 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 1: could pass through this black cardboard. Now, Runkan was a 61 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 1: methodical sort, and he repeated this somewhat accidental experiment many 62 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: times to make certain that what he was seeing was 63 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: actually real, that there was something to it. He further 64 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: investigated the phenomena for weeks before deciding to publish any 65 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: papers or even discuss the matter with anyone else. He 66 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: knew that lots of other people were doing experiments with 67 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: these low vacuum tubes, so he didn't want to tip 68 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: his hand too early and perhaps lose out on snag 69 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: a really big scientific discovery. Turns out, this was a 70 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: really good idea because there were no shortage of people 71 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: who were absolutely certain they had discovered something new and exciting, 72 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: and then after other people looked into it, they found 73 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: out that there wasn't really any discovery there at all, 74 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: which could be pretty humiliating, but this was not the 75 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: case with Rutgin. He had made the first documented observation 76 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: of what we would call X rays, in fact, what 77 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: he would call X rays X rays because X represents 78 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:37,799 Speaker 1: an unknown variable. What's more, Runkin noticed something really darn cool. 79 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: So let's say that he hung up a sheet of 80 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: paper that had a coating of barium platino cyanide on it, 81 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: and he put that a few feet away from the tube, 82 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: and then he energizes the tube, he turns it on. Essentially, 83 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: if he put his hand between the tube, which was 84 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: serving as a lamp and the sheet of paper, then 85 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: on the sheet of paper he would see projected the 86 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: bones of his hand. It was as though he could 87 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:11,239 Speaker 1: see straight through his flesh and look at the skeleton inside. Clearly, 88 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: he couldn't just keep this a secret, so he had 89 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: to tell his closest friend. He brought his wife to 90 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: his lab and showed her the discovery. He had her 91 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: hold her hand against a sheet of this paper, and 92 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,559 Speaker 1: then he exposed her hand for a fifteen minute long 93 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: X ray exposure, and instead of it just projecting the 94 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: images of the bones on the sheet of paper, it 95 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: actually made a record of it, an image like a photograph, 96 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: the first radiograph known on record. She reportedly exclaimed, I 97 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: have seen my own death, meaning she had seen her 98 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: own skeleton. Those the Rengins really knew how to turn 99 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: up the romance. It tells you anyway, after weeks of 100 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: investigative work, Jen reached a point where he felt confident 101 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: in coming forward to his peers to present his findings, 102 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: and once he did, it caught on like a house 103 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: on fire. His paper published at the end of eighteen 104 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: ninety five in December of eighteen ninety five. By eighteen 105 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: ninety six, people were making practical use of X rays. 106 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: Mostly this was in the medical field, but not exclusively, 107 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: because suddenly it was possible for physicians to gaze into 108 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: the human body, you know, looking into a patient without 109 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: first having to make an opening, which, as you can imagine, 110 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: presents certain advantages. All right, but now it's time to 111 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: jump to a different smarty pants, someone who was quite 112 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: the opportunistic smarty pants. In fact, some people could argue 113 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: that the true smarty pants nature of this man is 114 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: that he found new ways to claim authorship over work 115 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: that really just happened within him his place of business. 116 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: I am talking about Thomas Edison. Now, whether you think 117 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: of Edison as a truly brilliant inventor responsible for inventing 118 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: countless things in his lifetime, or you think of him 119 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: as someone who was more likely to employ people who 120 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: did most of the actual inventing, and then he would 121 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: put his names on the patents. I'll leave all that 122 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: to you. The truth of the matter is probably somewhere 123 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: in the middle. But the important part of our story 124 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: is that Edison and his staff were working on a 125 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: technology that would leverage X rays in a really interesting way. 126 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: So the basic concept wasn't that different from what Reunjin 127 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: had been experimenting with in his lab. The invention would 128 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: have a screen that would be coded with some sort 129 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: of fluorescent material on it and would thus fluoresce when 130 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: exposed to X rays. There would also be a lamp 131 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: capable of generating those X rays, and if you were 132 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: to place something between the lamp and the screen, you 133 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: would be able to see the stuff that blocked X 134 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: rays from hitting the screen. Now, your flesh would let 135 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: X rays pass right through it, so you would see 136 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: your bones on the fluorescent screen behind, and you can 137 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: have the lamp on, you can move your hand back 138 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: and forth, and you can watch the bones in your 139 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:29,599 Speaker 1: hands move in real time. Edison called his invention the vitascope, 140 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure later on he thought that was 141 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: a really ironic name, a poor name for him to 142 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: pick for this invention because vita means life, you can 143 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: see that in words like vitality. But the vitoscope would 144 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: actually lead to the death of one of Edison's most 145 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: loyal members of staff. That person was Clarence Madison Dally. He, 146 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: like his father and his brothers, would work as a 147 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: glassblower for T. Thomas Edison. Dally worked closely with Edison 148 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: while trying to design a practical incandescent lamp. Again, Essen 149 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 1: didn't really invent the light bulb, but in his lab 150 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: the light bulb was turned into something that was actually 151 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: of practical use. Now, upon runk Jen's discovery of X rays, 152 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: Dali would actually shift his own work to focus on 153 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: creating X ray lamps as well as a fluorescent sheet 154 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: that actually used calcium tungue state as the fluorescing material 155 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: instead of the barium platinum cyanide. This was seen to 156 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: produce sharper images and thus a higher fidelity kind of image. 157 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: For years, Dali worked in the lab developing this technology, 158 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: perfecting it, and over time he began to experience some 159 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: pretty not just pretty, some truly serious health problems. His 160 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: hands showed signs of radiation burns, particularly his left hand, 161 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: which he used to demonstrate the X rays by waving 162 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: it in the path of the X rays. He began 163 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: to develop skin lesions, which are part of you know, 164 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: radiation burns. His problems progressed to the point that he 165 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: actually had to have his left hand amputated, but that 166 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 1: was only the beginning. Later on he had to have 167 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: more of his left arm amputated, then several of the 168 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: fingers on his right hand, and then ultimately he had 169 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: one arm amputated to the elbow and the other arm 170 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: amputated to the shoulder. But the damage was even more severe, 171 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: and in nineteen oh four, when he was not even 172 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 1: forty years old, Dally passed away from terminal cancer. This 173 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: experience hit Edison very, very hard. He truly liked Dali, 174 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: and it also convinced him that X ray technology was 175 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: far more dangerous than beneficial, and he was quoted to say, 176 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: don't talk to me about x I am afraid of them. 177 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: But Edison's team had already invented the fluoroscope at that point, 178 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: and there were all sorts of potential applications for that technology. 179 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: When we come back, I'll talk about some of those, 180 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: but first let's take a quick break to thank our sponsor. 181 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: All Right, before the break, I mentioned that Edison's fluoroscope 182 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: would end up having various applications, So the most obvious 183 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: ones were in medicine, right, and there was a darn 184 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,839 Speaker 1: good reason to lean heavily on medicine in the early 185 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: twentieth century. You had a real provocative reason why you 186 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: wanted to advance the science of medicine. Several million reasons, 187 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: as it turned out, because in July nineteen fourteen, World 188 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: War One began. Of course, back then we didn't call 189 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: it World War one because being optimistic anyway. One of 190 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: the big challenges presented by the World War involved making 191 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: sure soldiers had the right equipment, and that included a 192 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 1: good pair of boots. Soldiers could end up having terrible injuries. 193 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: If they weren't wearing the right boots. They wouldn't be 194 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: able to march as far. They could suffer from things 195 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: like trench foot, So they needed to make sure the 196 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: boots were as well made and as good a fit 197 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: as was practical for the purposes of mass producing them 198 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: for soldiers. This is a delicate thing to balance, so 199 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: the thought was we should make sure that soldiers had 200 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: boots that would give them the support they needed and 201 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: not create a source of distraction or injury. And so 202 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: a guy named Frank Keefer created a book that he 203 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: titled a Textbook of Military Hygiene and Sanitation. This was 204 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: all with the goal of trying to keep soldiers as 205 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: healthy as possible before they were forced to march out 206 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: in front of a German machine gun in this time. 207 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: Next book, Kiefer included X ray images also known as radiographs, 208 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 1: in order to show how a soldier's foot should fit 209 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: inside a boot and what it would look like if 210 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: the soldier were wearing the wrong size boot. So this 211 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: was really just to illustrate the importance of matching the 212 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: size to the soldier. Keifer was not suggesting that the 213 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: army invest in thousands of fluoroscopes and check each recruit individually. 214 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: This was just to demonstrate the importance of a good fit, 215 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: but his idea sparked other ideas. A doctor named Jacob J. 216 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: Lowe used a fluoroscope to examine wounded soldier's feet without 217 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: having to first take off their boots. And you can 218 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: definitely understand how that could be a really useful thing 219 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: to do. You know why, would you potentially make an 220 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: injury worse or perhaps even create a new injury if 221 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: you can get a look in a non invasive kind 222 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: of way, and it works so well that Low thought 223 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: it would make sense to bring the technology to pediatrists 224 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: and to shoe stores in general. Why just use this 225 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: on soldiers when you could have a fluoroscope in your 226 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: local shoe shop, Customers could try on a pair of 227 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: new shoes. They could step up to the fluoroscope, the 228 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: staff could check to make sure that the shoes were 229 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: actually a really good fit. Maybe they could even employ 230 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: someone who could take a look at those images and say, oh, 231 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: you know what, you need special shoes because otherwise you're 232 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: not going to get the support you need and your 233 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: feet are going to hurt. Right, You could actually employ 234 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: people who could be experts in this. They could be 235 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: like the equivalent of a foot doctor working in a 236 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: shoe store and practice preventive medicine. It would be incredible. 237 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: So Low files for a patent in nineteen nineteen for 238 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: a shoe store version of this technology. However, it would 239 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: take nearly a decade for the patent off to grant 240 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: a patent. He called it the foot of scope, and 241 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: I am not making a joke about that. That is 242 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: actually what it would be called. And yeah, the idea 243 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: is that the customer would stick their feet into this 244 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: machine I'll describe it in a second, and the shoe 245 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: store salesperson would be able to look through a visor 246 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: and determine if the shoe was a good fit or not. 247 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: Low was not the only person pursuing this dream, believe 248 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: it or not. There were others around the world who 249 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: were filing similar patents. And while they filed their patents 250 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: after Low had already submitted his to the US Patent Office, 251 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: and at least a couple of cases, they got their 252 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: patents first. So kind of shows the great injustice of 253 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: global commerce, right, But eventually it all shook out that 254 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: really there were two major companies that would use this 255 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: technology to create machines for shoe shops. So in England 256 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: you had a company called the Petoscope Company, and here 257 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: in the United States you had the X Ray Shoe 258 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: Fitter Incorporated. Now, these fluoroscopes looked a lot like a 259 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: tall wooden cabinet, maybe like a little bit higher than 260 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: waist tall. So the customer would approach the cabinet on 261 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: one side, and the customer would be standing up and 262 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: they would step up onto a step at the base 263 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: of the cabinet, and at that point in the cabinet's 264 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,959 Speaker 1: wall there was kind of a little alcove where they 265 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: could slide their feet into this thing, so it's inside 266 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: the cabinet, So you're standing on the step, your feet 267 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: are now inside the cabinet. On the inside of the cabinet, 268 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: the X ray lamp would actually be below the customer's feet, 269 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 1: pointing up at a fluorescent screen, and the fluorescent screen 270 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: would be above the customer's feet, so the lamp would 271 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: blast X rays up through the shoes, through the flesh 272 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: of the customer's feet, and would leave a moving image 273 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: of dim bones on the fluorescent screen, which staff could 274 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: view from above. So on the opposite side of the 275 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: cabinet were the controls that the staff would use, so 276 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: pretty simple stuff. They would have, you know, like a 277 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: switch to turn the fluoroscope on, and at that point 278 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: they would start powering up the cathode ray tube and 279 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: start beaming X rays toward the fluorescent screen. There would 280 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: be at least one, but usually several viewing ports that 281 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: would look down from the top of the cabinet into 282 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: the cabinet itself. Now, these ports remind me a little 283 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 1: bit of like a submarine periscope, you know, has kind 284 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: of like a visor kind of of attachment that fits 285 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: around the eyes, which of course obviously blocks out the 286 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: ambient light of the shop while you're looking at the 287 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: tootsis inside the cabinet. And the multiple visors meant more 288 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: than one per and could look at a time. So 289 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: maybe it's the shoe salesperson, maybe they have an assistant, 290 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: and there's probably some curious lookilu who wants to take 291 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: a look that skeleton bones. In fact, I'm sure there 292 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: was no shortage of variations of the phrase oh honey, 293 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: I can see your skeleton feet and these shoe shops 294 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: at the time. Anyway, the idea was the shoe salesperson 295 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: would be able to study the feet inside the shoe 296 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: and determine if the shoe really was a good fit. 297 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 1: Though I'm sure in many, perhaps most cases, the real 298 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: use of the technology was that it attracted customers and 299 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: it helped move sales. Sure, I bet in some cases 300 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: the clerk might say, this pair of shoes looks like 301 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: it's on the small side. For you or maybe you 302 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: need a wider pair of shoes or something along those lines. 303 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: But most of the time, I bet it was really 304 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: just a way to get folks into the door. Now, 305 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: as I'm sure you've all gathered, this practice was also 306 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: extremely dangerous. Customers might get a large dose of X rays, 307 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: a larger one than they would in a normal year, 308 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: especially these days. But the real risk was for the 309 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: staff who were using these machines over and over on 310 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: multiple customers a day. The first of these machines hit 311 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: the market in nineteen twenty seven, we wouldn't even settle 312 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: on a standard unit of measurement for radiation, the run Gin, 313 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: named after the guy who discovered X rays. We wouldn't 314 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: decide on that till nineteen twenty eight the following year, 315 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: and we still didn't have that much data to draw 316 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: conclusions as to how much or how little radiation exposure 317 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: was really safe or harmful. Now you had some scientists 318 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: who were arguing that it would be a really bad 319 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: idea to make use of radiation technology in an environment 320 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: like a shoe store, that it represented a true risk 321 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: to employees, that radiation really was no joke. Then you had, 322 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 1: on the other side the owners of the stores, who 323 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: essentially said shut up. The stores were claiming that the 324 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: X rays would let them create real like osteopathic solutions 325 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: to foot problems, but in reality, almost no one had 326 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: that kind of expertise or knowledge or experience. They had 327 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: no way of making any real meaningful decisions based on 328 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: what they were seeing. It was just a gimmick and 329 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 1: a gravy train. And by golly, they didn't need some 330 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,479 Speaker 1: boffin telling them that their killer sales pitch was going 331 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: to give them cancer. And so the machines prospered for 332 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: a couple of decades. In fact, by the nineteen forties, 333 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: there was something like ten thousand fluoroscopes in the United 334 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: States alone, There were another say, three thousand in the UK, 335 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: and there were a few thousand more in a couple 336 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: of other countries. So just imagine for a moment all 337 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: those store employees who absorbed way more X rays than 338 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: any person is supposed to in a day. Just most 339 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: people wouldn't even absorb that much in a full year, 340 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: And day after day, these folks were getting blasted by 341 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 1: X rays. When in the mid nineteen forties, the American 342 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: Standards Association made a determination about X rays. They concluded 343 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: that at max, a person should encounter less than zero 344 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: point one rent gens worth of radiation per day. Now, 345 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty eight, there was a survey done of 346 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: around forty something machines that were being used in Detroit, 347 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: these fluoroscope machines, and in that study they found that 348 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: the machines emitted radiation at a level between sixteen to 349 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: seventy five rent gens per minute. You were not supposed 350 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: to absorb more than point one per day. Now, keep 351 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: in mind the standards those are for, like super protective, 352 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: let's be extra careful, let's limit liability as much as possible. 353 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: So you could argue that it's overly cautious, if you 354 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: want to take that point of view. But the point 355 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 1: being that these machines were putting out way more radiation 356 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: than what people were supposed to be encountering in a 357 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: work environment. They were dangerous, and they were largely unregulated. 358 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: In the United States, laws about these devices were on 359 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: a state by state basis. In fact, it wouldn't be 360 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: until the nineteen seventies that you would start to see 361 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: laws across the country limiting their use and requiring the 362 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: machines to adhere to strict rules for manufacturing and operation. 363 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania was the first US state to ban them outright, 364 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: That was in nineteen fifty seven. Even by nineteen seventy 365 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: only thirty three states had a ban in place. The 366 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 1: federal government couldn't take action until the early nineteen seventies 367 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: because there was no legal basis. The FDA, which was 368 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: the most likely organization to be able to step in, 369 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: had no authority for anything that had to do with 370 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: radiation that was not part of their responsibilities, so there 371 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: was nothing they could do. There was no legal basis 372 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: to make any kind of action on a federal level. 373 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: This was a case where technology and science had far 374 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: outpaced our laws and our capacity to do anything from 375 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 1: a legal standpoint, which sounds familiar to me as I 376 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: talk about this, and as I talk about things like AI. Now. 377 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: One thing that may have somewhat taken the wind out 378 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 1: of the fluoroscopes sales was the Second World War. Before 379 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: the introduction of the atom bomb, radiation was thought of 380 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: as more like this amazing kind of energy that could 381 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: do phenomenal stuff, like like you could use radiation for 382 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: anything to in science fiction, it was to blast around 383 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: in space, or fly at incredible speeds over the land, 384 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: or all sorts of things, and you'd be able to 385 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: use is it for industry? Radiation was wonderful, you know, 386 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: maybe you'd even power a superhero. But then you get 387 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: to the end of World War Two, when Fat Man 388 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: and Little Boy demonstrated the dreadful power of the atom, 389 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: and the stories of radiation poisoning and terrible things of 390 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: that nature really changed the picture. Pretty quickly. People saw 391 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: the destructive nature of radiation, or the destructive capability I 392 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: guess I should say of radiation. And so now the 393 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: perception shifted dramatically. They went from space age energy to 394 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: this is something we should be scared of. It's an 395 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: invisible killer. Be afraid. You know, you get into the 396 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: Cold War, the threat of nuclear war, all this perception 397 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: of radiation changes. It was a massive cultural shift. Keep 398 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: in mind, the radiation itself never changed. It was the 399 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: same from beginning to end. It was that way before 400 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: we got here, it'll be that way after we leave. 401 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: It's just our perception that changed. And it's interesting because 402 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: we would embrace our fear along with ignorance about radiation 403 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: in the exact same way that we embraced exuberance and 404 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 1: ignorance about radiation earlier, you know, a few decades earlier. 405 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: But now instead of thinking, hey, I can use this 406 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: invisible ray to see my bones and make my feet 407 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: fit better in these shoes, now people are thinking radiation 408 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: will create bloodthirsty monsters that will hunt us all down. 409 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: So the pendulum ever swings. All right, We're gonna take 410 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: another quick break, but when we come back, I'll talk 411 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: a little bit more about fluoroscopes and what happened with those, 412 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: as well as kind of related back to what I 413 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: think it has to do with artificial intelligence. But first 414 00:26:50,480 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: let's thank our sponsors. Okay, so we're back to talk 415 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: more about fluoroscopes and the use of X rays and 416 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,479 Speaker 1: shoe stores. There was something of a decline and interest 417 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: in fluoroscopes after World War Two, but as I mentioned, 418 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: the technology actually stuck around for decades. Right. I saw 419 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: articles that said as late as the nineteen seventies there 420 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: were a few places that were still using them. And 421 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: these days you can sometimes find an example of a 422 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: fluoroscope in a place like a museum, but otherwise you're 423 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: not likely to run into one and that's for the best, because, 424 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: as I have said, these devices were dangerous. Now, I 425 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: am unaware of any kind of comprehensive study that looked 426 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 1: into how many people in shoe stores were injured by 427 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: these devices. There are certainly incidents, isolated incidents that we 428 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 1: can point to. For example, Harold Baveley reported in a 429 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 1: paper for National Safety News back in nineteen fifty that 430 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: a woman who had been serving as a shoe model 431 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 1: in a store ended up having radiation burns on one 432 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: leg just from the fact that she was going into 433 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: the store every day and they were operating this fluoroscope, 434 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 1: and the leakage from these cabinets could go as far 435 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: as ten feet away. These stores were not necessarily huge, 436 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: so this woman had suffered a severe radiation burn on 437 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: one leg, and ultimately doctors chose to amputate the leg 438 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: because that's how serious it had become. That's a terrible story. 439 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: That's just one, though. There are a couple of others 440 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: at least that are fairly well documented and seem to 441 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: link back to the use of these fluoroscopes in shoe stores. 442 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: But part of the challenge of actually assessing the impact 443 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: these machines could have had on store employees. Is that, 444 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: apart from acute injuries like radiation burns, it could be 445 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: hard to ascribe radiation as the reason for a problem. 446 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: We really think of radiation as increasing risk for certain 447 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: things like cancer. But that's increasing risk, like you might 448 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: have cancer. But then can you actually track that back 449 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: and say, the reason I have cancer is because of 450 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: the increased risk that I endured due to exposure to 451 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: X rays. That's harder to determine, right, Like you might 452 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: not be able to track down the actual source the 453 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: reason for the cancer. If you have a large enough 454 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: sample size, then you might be able to draw some 455 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: general conclusions. But there's just not been any kind of 456 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: study like that, so it's not always an open and 457 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: shut case. You cannot just definitively say X number of 458 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: people ended up encountering massive health problems due to their 459 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: exposure to fluoroscopes. That's just not a metric that we 460 00:29:55,520 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: can confidently point at. We can certainly say the likelihood 461 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: is very high that lots of people ended up having 462 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: health problems due to those fluoroscopes, but that's about as 463 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: far as we can go. It gets very vague. One 464 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: important thing to remember though, is that shoe fluoroscopes were 465 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: categorically a bad idea. They had no justification. It was 466 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,239 Speaker 1: a bad way to use a new technology. It's not 467 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: that the technology itself was bad, it was just a 468 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: bad implementation, right. Obviously, X rays have their use. We 469 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: use X rays today for lots of stuff, just not 470 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,959 Speaker 1: to fit shoes on people. It's a technology that posed 471 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: dangers that we did not fully understand or appreciate when 472 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: we developed the technology. It put people at risk unnecessarily, 473 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: and you can make the argument that they didn't really 474 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: do anything useful at all, right, It just served as 475 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: a sales gimmick because the people who were actually running 476 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: the tech didn't have the training or knowledge to do 477 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: anything useful with the information other than sell some shoes. 478 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: And that really does bring me back to artificial intelligence. 479 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: I see the rush to integrate AI into business solutions 480 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: as being somewhat similar to how these shoe stores were 481 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: doing this with X ray machines. I am convinced that 482 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: many of the business leaders who are making these choices 483 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: do not yet have a real firm grasp on what 484 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: they actually intend to accomplish with AI. It's not that 485 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence is useless. It's not that it's bad, but 486 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence can also end up being risky depending on 487 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: how you implement it. It could even be dangerous, and 488 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: unless you are implementing it the right way and for 489 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: the right reasons, then you're far more likely to do 490 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: more harm than you are to do good. Now, that 491 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: harm could just be in the of business results. Maybe 492 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: it just means that in the short term you don't 493 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: perform as well as you had hoped, or you have 494 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: demoralized your employee base, and now you have to rebuild 495 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: because it turns out the AI couldn't do what you 496 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: needed it to do, or it was doing it in 497 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: a way that wasn't helpful, or that harm could be 498 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: something far more tangible. Ultimately, it could even be tragic. Now, 499 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: am I off base? Is there no parallel here? I'm 500 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: not convinced. To me. It feels like we're walking down 501 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,719 Speaker 1: a path that we've walked down many times before, or 502 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: maybe even we're not walking down a path. We're barreling 503 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: through the woods in the same general direction as one 504 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: we've taken before, and it was a direction that ended 505 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: up getting us scraped up, bumped up, We lost people 506 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: along the way, and I think we're doing it again. 507 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: I do not necessarily think AI is going to spell 508 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: the end of everything. I'm not a doomsayer. I'm not 509 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: saying AI is going to end us. All I do 510 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: think what we're seeing right now is kind of an 511 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: undirected scramble that's largely fed by the fear of being 512 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: left behind. That you have business leaders who are saying, 513 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: we can't sleep on this because if we do, our 514 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: competitors are going to get ahead of us and we'll 515 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: never catch up. I think that's what's feeding a lot 516 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: of this discourse, and often that can mean that you 517 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: actually end up pushing yourself backward because you make a 518 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: bad implementation. Then if you had just stayed the course. 519 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: Not that I'm saying anyone has to just do things 520 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: the way they've always done them, because that's how they've 521 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: always done them, but they do need to have a 522 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: greater understanding of the technology and its consequences before putting 523 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: it in action. That to me just as common sense, 524 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: And again we just look back at the fluoroscopes in 525 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: these shoe stores to say, here's an example of what 526 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: can go wrong if we don't take those steps. People 527 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: get sick, they could even die. It's something that we 528 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,399 Speaker 1: need to keep in mind. Okay, that's it for this 529 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: episode of tech stuff. I thought it was really interesting 530 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: to dive back into that part of the tech. This 531 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: does obviously have parallels elsewhere in the tech space. I mean, 532 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: there were the so called radium girls, the women who 533 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: would use little paint brushes to paint thin lines of 534 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: radium on watch hands and watch numbers so that you 535 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: could have glow in the dark watches. Often they would 536 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: end up licking their paint brushes in order to be 537 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: able to keep it at a fine point, and a 538 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: lot of those women ended up having terrible problems later 539 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: on in life because of radiation. So again, it's not 540 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: the only case where we embraced a technology and a 541 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: phenomenon that we didn't really understand fully and we did 542 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: so without any hesitation, and people ultimately paid the price 543 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: for that. So again, just words of caution out there 544 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: for us to consider on occasion while we're hearing all 545 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: the evangelists push really hard for companies to jump on 546 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: board and adopt this stuff. That's it. I hope you 547 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 1: are all well, and I'll talk to you again really soon. 548 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: Tech Stuff is an iHeartRadio production. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 549 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 550 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.