WEBVTT - Mass Incarceration is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:28.636 Bushkin, this is solvable. On Jacob Weisberg, We're back interviewing 0:00:28.756 --> 0:00:31.676 leaders and change makers about how to solve the world's 0:00:31.676 --> 0:00:35.596 biggest problems, and sometimes it starts with looking back at 0:00:35.596 --> 0:00:38.876 our own history. When, if ever did were we like 0:00:39.036 --> 0:00:42.236 other countries back in nineteen seventy we incarcerated at the 0:00:42.276 --> 0:00:45.876 same rate as other countries in this world. The killing 0:00:45.876 --> 0:00:49.436 of George Floyd has brought calls for transforming policing into 0:00:49.516 --> 0:00:52.796 the national spotlight, with so many people taking to the 0:00:52.876 --> 0:00:56.676 streets demanding action. Now, we have to maintain our confidence 0:00:56.956 --> 0:01:00.796 that even the hardest problems related to racial justice can 0:01:00.916 --> 0:01:07.116 be solved. How do you break this problem down into 0:01:07.156 --> 0:01:11.956 solvable pieces. Decide to prosecuting and charging low level crimes, 0:01:12.116 --> 0:01:16.876 don't criminalize those behaviors. Justice isn't blind. We have to 0:01:16.916 --> 0:01:20.196 be far more critical and thoughtful and have that lens up. 0:01:22.156 --> 0:01:25.996 Today we're going to talk about how to solve mass incarceration. 0:01:26.236 --> 0:01:32.116 This is such a solvable problem. Inscho Rockman used to 0:01:32.156 --> 0:01:35.236 work as a public defender in the Bronx. That job 0:01:35.236 --> 0:01:39.876 illuminated for her the variety of state, national level problems 0:01:39.916 --> 0:01:43.396 with the criminal justice system. The US has five percent 0:01:43.436 --> 0:01:46.956 of the world's population, but currently holds twenty five percent 0:01:47.076 --> 0:01:50.876 of the world's incarcerated people. Rockman is a director of 0:01:50.956 --> 0:01:54.876 Strategy and New Initiatives at the Vera Institute, an organization 0:01:54.916 --> 0:01:58.796 devoted to improving the criminal justice system in the United States. 0:01:59.556 --> 0:02:04.476 Rockman thinks those extremely disproportionate numbers represent a problem we 0:02:04.556 --> 0:02:07.676 can solve. Inch I'm so excited to talk to you 0:02:07.716 --> 0:02:11.276 today about this because mass incarceration is something I think 0:02:11.316 --> 0:02:12.556 a lot about it, and I know a lot of 0:02:12.556 --> 0:02:16.276 our listeners are super interested in. I wonder how you 0:02:16.396 --> 0:02:20.756 define the problem as something we can solve. Yep, we 0:02:20.836 --> 0:02:23.836 have two point three million people behind bars today. That's 0:02:24.596 --> 0:02:27.396 seven hundred and fifty thousand people in jails and another 0:02:27.556 --> 0:02:31.556 one point five million in prisons, and it's actually solvable. 0:02:31.956 --> 0:02:35.716 So what's your plausible goal to get it down from 0:02:35.756 --> 0:02:38.556 two point three million you said in jails in prison 0:02:38.676 --> 0:02:42.036 to what number? If we just look at the average 0:02:42.116 --> 0:02:45.756 incarceration rate across the rest of the world, and if 0:02:45.796 --> 0:02:48.716 America were to incarcerate at that rate, we would get 0:02:48.716 --> 0:02:51.276 down from two point three million to three hundred and 0:02:51.316 --> 0:02:54.756 sixty thousand. That's something like doing the math my head. 0:02:54.796 --> 0:02:58.436 A factor of seven. Yep. That's a remarkable number when 0:02:58.436 --> 0:03:01.356 you think about it, and that's what we could and 0:03:01.556 --> 0:03:05.316 should and can actually do if we decide to do 0:03:05.476 --> 0:03:08.476 business differently from the beginning of the system to the end. 0:03:09.236 --> 0:03:12.676 Just since George Floyd's killing, we've been in the midst 0:03:12.676 --> 0:03:17.276 of a national even international movement against police violence and 0:03:17.396 --> 0:03:23.196 for racial justice. Does that change the opportunity around the incarceration? 0:03:24.556 --> 0:03:28.756 It does, but only if we make enough of this moment. 0:03:28.876 --> 0:03:31.356 And one thing that I want to point out is 0:03:31.396 --> 0:03:34.116 that for many of us it feels like a moment 0:03:34.156 --> 0:03:36.796 of opportunity to make sure that the path we walk 0:03:36.876 --> 0:03:39.596 to get here with the criminal justice system that we have, 0:03:39.716 --> 0:03:42.876 the path moving forward isn't the same. But we have 0:03:42.916 --> 0:03:46.316 to also stop and acknowledge the moment of incredible pain 0:03:46.636 --> 0:03:50.236 and hurt and harm that has happened. That it took 0:03:50.276 --> 0:03:55.436 the senseless and ruthless killing of a black man by 0:03:55.476 --> 0:03:58.836 a police officer with his need to his neck for 0:03:58.916 --> 0:04:02.556 the country to actually realize what actually happens with impunity 0:04:02.556 --> 0:04:04.516 each and every day in this country. And it's not 0:04:04.596 --> 0:04:08.196 just a crisis of now, but it's a crisis that's 0:04:08.236 --> 0:04:12.436 been here literally since slavery. So yes, there is opportunity, 0:04:12.516 --> 0:04:15.116 but we actually won't make enough of the opportunity if 0:04:15.116 --> 0:04:18.236 we don't recognize the long history and roots that got 0:04:18.276 --> 0:04:20.596 us to this place where we all feel like it's 0:04:20.596 --> 0:04:23.876 not only crisis but a moment of hope. But it 0:04:23.916 --> 0:04:25.796 really is a moment of crisis, and we have to 0:04:25.876 --> 0:04:28.676 lean into that first before we think about the opportunity 0:04:28.676 --> 0:04:31.796 in the moment. These two issues of police violence and 0:04:31.836 --> 0:04:34.836 mass incarspiration are obviously so closely related. They're two sides 0:04:34.836 --> 0:04:37.236 of the same coin. They're part of the same system. 0:04:37.276 --> 0:04:42.156 Are you concerned that we may be pointed towards improving 0:04:42.196 --> 0:04:45.556 the one without addressing the other. What we have seen 0:04:45.756 --> 0:04:50.596 since the video went viral of George Floyd's murder is states, 0:04:50.676 --> 0:04:54.236 in cities and even the federal government has moved to 0:04:54.516 --> 0:04:59.516 ban chokeholds, to spend less money on policing and more 0:04:59.636 --> 0:05:02.276 in communities, and all of that is a great start. 0:05:02.356 --> 0:05:05.076 But if that's where we start and that's where we end, yes, 0:05:05.156 --> 0:05:07.596 we've missed the larger opportunity to say, what do we 0:05:07.676 --> 0:05:10.716 do about two point three million and behind bars? Two 0:05:10.716 --> 0:05:14.396 points three million people behind bars, It's just shocking number. 0:05:14.436 --> 0:05:16.756 It's one of those numbers you almost don't process. You 0:05:16.836 --> 0:05:19.076 just you hear it. It's so many, it's got so 0:05:19.116 --> 0:05:22.236 many digits. Has the United States ever had a normal 0:05:22.396 --> 0:05:26.436 level of incarceration? When were we ever like other countries? 0:05:26.476 --> 0:05:29.516 If we were ever like other countries, we weren't always 0:05:29.516 --> 0:05:32.956 this way. In the nineteen seventies, we actually had the 0:05:33.076 --> 0:05:37.276 same rate of incarceration as other countries that we think 0:05:37.276 --> 0:05:40.556 of as our peers, as England and France and Germany. 0:05:40.876 --> 0:05:43.796 But what changed is that in the nineteen seventies and 0:05:43.876 --> 0:05:46.836 nineteen eighties, as the whole world went through a crisis 0:05:46.836 --> 0:05:53.076 of recession economic setbacks, countries like Western European countries invested 0:05:53.196 --> 0:05:56.716 in the social services that they invested in responses that 0:05:56.756 --> 0:05:59.756 weren't just punitive. And what America did was take a 0:05:59.756 --> 0:06:03.916 different trajectory. We went to truth and sentencing, tough on crime, 0:06:03.956 --> 0:06:06.116 the war on drugs, and that led us to the 0:06:06.156 --> 0:06:08.676 outlier that we are today. Of course, for anyone who 0:06:08.716 --> 0:06:12.796 hasn't seen at the Avadverney documentary, Thirteenth gives an amazing 0:06:12.836 --> 0:06:17.316 sense of the continuity between slavery, policing and mass incarceration. 0:06:17.676 --> 0:06:19.676 This is a four hundred year history, but it also 0:06:19.756 --> 0:06:22.516 does have these big landmarks. One of them that comes 0:06:22.596 --> 0:06:25.796 up a lot is the Crime Bill in nineteen ninety 0:06:25.796 --> 0:06:28.916 four that Congress passed and Bill Clinton signed, which was 0:06:28.996 --> 0:06:33.236 kind of a consensus bill, was supported by Republicans and Democrats, 0:06:33.236 --> 0:06:36.556 and there were billions of dollars in that bill for 0:06:36.916 --> 0:06:41.076 building jails in prison as well as for increasing police 0:06:41.156 --> 0:06:44.476 and arming police. I mean, do you think of that 0:06:44.636 --> 0:06:49.036 as the real modern watershed in mass incarceration. It was 0:06:49.076 --> 0:06:52.516 certainly the accelerant on a system that was already on fire. 0:06:52.956 --> 0:06:55.476 In The nineteen ninety four Crime Bill, by the way, 0:06:55.636 --> 0:07:00.156 enjoyed broad support from Democrats and Republicans, including many black 0:07:00.196 --> 0:07:03.836 members of Congress at the time, because that was all 0:07:03.876 --> 0:07:08.836 that was on offer to in theory, help communities from 0:07:09.156 --> 0:07:12.436 crime and from violence. What the difference has been from 0:07:12.476 --> 0:07:15.156 now twenty five years on from when the Crime Bill 0:07:15.276 --> 0:07:18.316 was passed, was we recognize that there are other options, 0:07:18.316 --> 0:07:20.516 and there are cheaper options. There are options that don't 0:07:20.556 --> 0:07:24.036 result in the wanton killing of black and brown people 0:07:24.076 --> 0:07:26.396 in this country that we can invest in and that 0:07:26.436 --> 0:07:30.196 will actually deliver true public safety. I mean, there seems 0:07:30.196 --> 0:07:33.356 to be a certain kind of consensus now about some 0:07:33.436 --> 0:07:37.396 kinds of reform. There was the First Step Act that 0:07:37.556 --> 0:07:41.916 Donald Trump signed, and even now post George Floyd, you 0:07:42.276 --> 0:07:45.956 Donald Trump is supported a bill that would ban I 0:07:45.996 --> 0:07:49.196 guess some but not all, chokeholds. But I mean, first 0:07:49.196 --> 0:07:53.956 of all, you see the opportunity for real reform at 0:07:53.956 --> 0:07:56.716 the moment, and are you worried that when you do 0:07:56.796 --> 0:07:59.596 have these moments of consensus like in ninety four, you 0:07:59.636 --> 0:08:03.756 sort of go with the lowest common denominator and don't 0:08:03.796 --> 0:08:08.196 think through the potential consequences of what you're doing. When 0:08:08.236 --> 0:08:10.756 the First Step Act passed a couple of years ago, 0:08:10.956 --> 0:08:15.316 for some it was hailed as a remarkable watershed moment 0:08:15.396 --> 0:08:17.436 and that it was the first time in decades that 0:08:17.476 --> 0:08:20.516 the federal government had really stepped in on a criminal 0:08:20.556 --> 0:08:23.796 justice issue, and that was led by a Republican administration, 0:08:23.916 --> 0:08:26.356 no less. But if you actually look at what the 0:08:26.396 --> 0:08:29.236 First Step Act did, which it released a couple thousand 0:08:29.316 --> 0:08:33.076 people from prison, which actually touches only a fraction of 0:08:33.076 --> 0:08:37.156 our overall one point five million people in prison and 0:08:37.236 --> 0:08:40.076 doesn't even touch people in state prisons, you really sort 0:08:40.076 --> 0:08:41.996 of get a sense of just how much of a 0:08:42.076 --> 0:08:44.916 first step, and a tiny first step at that it was. 0:08:45.356 --> 0:08:48.356 Here's the fascinating thing about this moment, Jacob, is that 0:08:48.476 --> 0:08:51.276 the calls right now, in the wake of George Floyd's 0:08:51.316 --> 0:08:54.036 murder and the murder of so many other black people 0:08:54.236 --> 0:08:56.116 at the hands of the police, it's not just for 0:08:56.236 --> 0:08:58.876 things that are a minuscule first step. It's actually calls 0:08:58.916 --> 0:09:02.316 like defund the police and to dismantle the police, as 0:09:02.316 --> 0:09:05.156 we saw the Minneapolis City Council vote to do. And 0:09:05.196 --> 0:09:08.876 so that's the opportunity of now, is that where consensus 0:09:08.956 --> 0:09:13.116 is is so much further I would say, it's not 0:09:13.156 --> 0:09:14.996 even so much further to the left, it's so much 0:09:15.036 --> 0:09:19.116 further towards looking for a real transformative solution and not 0:09:19.196 --> 0:09:22.356 just tinkering around the edges. And so there's so many 0:09:22.356 --> 0:09:26.876 different components to this problem, from bail reform to sentencing reform, 0:09:26.956 --> 0:09:30.436 to police reform to what happens to prisoners post release. 0:09:30.476 --> 0:09:34.516 How do you break this problem down into solvable pieces 0:09:34.596 --> 0:09:38.436 and how do you prioritize which are the most important pieces. Yeah, 0:09:38.476 --> 0:09:41.476 so I think if this problem as having three components, 0:09:41.676 --> 0:09:44.196 and you know, how do we get from the two 0:09:44.236 --> 0:09:47.356 point three million to three hundred and sixty thousand. The 0:09:47.436 --> 0:09:51.956 first is the reckoning an acknowledgement of the racial disparities 0:09:51.996 --> 0:09:56.556 and making policy choices and practice choices differently. So one 0:09:56.596 --> 0:09:59.676 concrete example is I was once sitting in a prosecutor's 0:09:59.756 --> 0:10:03.196 office and I saw on his desk a map of 0:10:03.236 --> 0:10:07.836 the city and he actually had literally circles around neighborhoods, 0:10:07.836 --> 0:10:10.116 And I asked, what are those and he said, well, 0:10:10.236 --> 0:10:13.756 those are the neighborhoods where they're predominantly black and brown 0:10:13.836 --> 0:10:16.916 communities that live there. And so when we get a 0:10:16.956 --> 0:10:19.676 case that comes from the police from those neighborhoods, we 0:10:19.716 --> 0:10:22.156 actually sort of double check it, triple check it to 0:10:22.276 --> 0:10:24.876 make sure that we are thinking carefully about whether or 0:10:24.916 --> 0:10:28.236 not to prosecute this traffic stop or this drug arrest. 0:10:28.676 --> 0:10:31.676 We know that these are the communities where the vast 0:10:31.716 --> 0:10:34.396 majority of cases in the city are coming from, and 0:10:34.436 --> 0:10:38.276 so we're making an active decision to look carefully and 0:10:38.316 --> 0:10:40.276 make a choice of whether we're going to move forward 0:10:40.396 --> 0:10:43.756 or not. It's basically saying justice isn't blind. We have 0:10:43.876 --> 0:10:46.636 to be far more critical and thoughtful and have that 0:10:46.756 --> 0:10:50.316 lens on. The second part is to do everything we 0:10:50.356 --> 0:10:53.516 can do to choose not to put people in jail, 0:10:53.556 --> 0:10:57.116 in prison to quote unquote decarsorate and so bail reform 0:10:57.236 --> 0:11:00.116 is a really obvious way to limit the number of 0:11:00.116 --> 0:11:04.276 people who go to jail. Moreover, we can make different 0:11:04.276 --> 0:11:08.596 decisions on sentencing actually addressing the underlying harms that led 0:11:08.636 --> 0:11:12.996 to that person doing that harmful act in the first place, 0:11:13.076 --> 0:11:16.676 or addressing what can change the circumstances of your life 0:11:16.676 --> 0:11:20.196 so that actually never happens again. And then the third 0:11:20.236 --> 0:11:23.156 part is for when we do incarcerate, we need to 0:11:23.196 --> 0:11:26.476 do it radically differently than how we currently do it. 0:11:26.716 --> 0:11:30.476 And what that looks like is my organization VIA partnered 0:11:30.476 --> 0:11:35.076 with the Department of Correction in Connecticut to actually transform 0:11:35.196 --> 0:11:38.636 some of the prison units there are maximum security units. 0:11:38.716 --> 0:11:41.036 They look much more like life on the outside. The 0:11:41.116 --> 0:11:43.396 young men who are there go to school or they 0:11:43.436 --> 0:11:46.316 work every day. They are quote unquote paid in sort 0:11:46.356 --> 0:11:49.836 of rewards and points where they get more privileges and 0:11:49.996 --> 0:11:52.796 free time and things like that. If they are able 0:11:52.876 --> 0:11:56.196 to be more productive members of that community, and they 0:11:56.196 --> 0:11:59.756 actually talk through conflict in what are called restorative circles, 0:11:59.836 --> 0:12:03.196 where you talk it through as opposed to using punishment 0:12:03.196 --> 0:12:06.756 and discipline as the first reaction. And what we've seen 0:12:06.916 --> 0:12:10.556 is that radically different way of actually doing incarceration has 0:12:10.676 --> 0:12:14.556 tremendous impact officers who work They say, this is the 0:12:14.556 --> 0:12:17.516 most relaxed place in prison I have ever been. It 0:12:17.556 --> 0:12:21.476 feels comfortable. I actually feel safe. And so let's talk 0:12:21.516 --> 0:12:25.836 about COVID nineteen for a minute. The pandemic is creating 0:12:25.836 --> 0:12:29.796 a kind of natural experiment in decarceration. People are being 0:12:29.876 --> 0:12:33.436 let out. A lot of people have a visceral reaction 0:12:33.556 --> 0:12:35.276 that there's going to be more crime if you let 0:12:35.316 --> 0:12:39.196 more people out of prison. The decline in crime did 0:12:39.316 --> 0:12:43.396 correlate with mass incarceration. Why are people wrong to think 0:12:43.556 --> 0:12:47.756 that de incarceration will lead to an increasing crime. That's 0:12:47.756 --> 0:12:51.596 actually not true. It's not statistically true from the research, 0:12:51.996 --> 0:12:54.796 and it's also not true what we've seen in concrete 0:12:54.796 --> 0:12:58.476 examples around the country today. In New York City, our 0:12:58.516 --> 0:13:01.556 jail population is down to less than four thousand people 0:13:01.596 --> 0:13:04.716 in jail from a high of twenty two thousand back 0:13:04.716 --> 0:13:07.556 in the early nineteen nineties. Back then in the city 0:13:07.796 --> 0:13:11.796 we had over three thousand homicides a year, and last 0:13:11.836 --> 0:13:15.316 year we had about three hundred homicides. That's a radical 0:13:15.476 --> 0:13:20.476 change in the level of crime and public safety. And 0:13:20.516 --> 0:13:24.476 that's actually the statistics that are true when we incarcerate less. 0:13:24.996 --> 0:13:26.956 Who are the people we really shouldn't let out? Even 0:13:26.956 --> 0:13:29.996 if we let out six out of seven, who's the 0:13:30.076 --> 0:13:33.796 one out of seven? And I hear even reform advocates 0:13:34.196 --> 0:13:36.476 making a lot of exceptions. We shouldn't let people out 0:13:36.516 --> 0:13:39.076 who are convicted of domestic violence, We shouldn't let out 0:13:39.156 --> 0:13:42.156 violent offenders, we shouldn't let out sex offenders, we shouldn't 0:13:42.196 --> 0:13:44.476 let out white collar criminals. You know, should we let 0:13:44.476 --> 0:13:47.596 Bernie Madoff out of prison? Who are the people that 0:13:47.876 --> 0:13:50.756 you think, in the end we shouldn't let out of prison? 0:13:51.356 --> 0:13:53.476 So I think that framing of the question is the 0:13:53.516 --> 0:13:55.636 wrong one, and so I'm going to push back on it. 0:13:56.236 --> 0:13:59.836 The question is who can we let out? And the 0:14:00.596 --> 0:14:06.116 answer is folks who are safe and ready to walk 0:14:06.156 --> 0:14:09.996 among us, who are actually the vast majority of people 0:14:10.036 --> 0:14:12.476 who are currently behind bars? And how do we know 0:14:12.596 --> 0:14:15.876 that it's not based on the crime that you are 0:14:15.876 --> 0:14:19.556 accused or convicted. Of those folks who were convicted of 0:14:19.636 --> 0:14:22.756 a murder when they were eighteen or nineteen and they've 0:14:22.756 --> 0:14:26.116 been behind bars for twenty years, they are no longer 0:14:26.196 --> 0:14:29.996 that same person who committed a violent act twenty years ago, 0:14:30.356 --> 0:14:33.556 and how do we know that superintendence and wardens saying 0:14:33.796 --> 0:14:35.876 I would have this guy's my neighbor, I would have 0:14:35.996 --> 0:14:39.396 this person as my family member. There are because it 0:14:39.476 --> 0:14:42.676 is mass incarceration. There are a huge number of people 0:14:42.756 --> 0:14:47.956 whose jobs and livelihoods are working in prisons. Right, how 0:14:47.956 --> 0:14:53.036 do you get prison guards to support the incarceration workforce development? 0:14:53.476 --> 0:14:56.876 Where we've seen prisons is often in more rural parts 0:14:56.956 --> 0:14:59.396 of the country or more rural parts of a state, 0:14:59.436 --> 0:15:01.876 where they are the biggest employer in many of these 0:15:01.916 --> 0:15:05.396 small towns and cities that they're in. And so that 0:15:05.596 --> 0:15:08.756 is the key way to get them on quote unquote 0:15:08.756 --> 0:15:10.636 our side, because I actually don't know that it's a 0:15:10.676 --> 0:15:15.036 matter of sides. Give them skills that you put us 0:15:15.036 --> 0:15:18.836 in the twenty first century that aren't necessarily factory work. Likewise, 0:15:19.036 --> 0:15:21.596 we have to get out of the twentieth century mentality 0:15:21.756 --> 0:15:24.796 of a prison guard job, which has passed down from 0:15:24.836 --> 0:15:29.036 generation to generation in a prison town, and the pandemic 0:15:29.116 --> 0:15:33.436 has really brought together I would say strange bedfellows, because 0:15:33.476 --> 0:15:36.636 who else really suffers when we don't decarceerate our jails 0:15:36.636 --> 0:15:39.756 and prisons and they are tinder boxes for this pandemic. 0:15:40.276 --> 0:15:44.516 The staff, the corrections officers, and other medical staff and 0:15:44.596 --> 0:15:47.876 workers who work in jails and prisons, and not only 0:15:47.916 --> 0:15:51.516 are there and as susceptible to getting the virus as 0:15:51.796 --> 0:15:54.196 the people who are incarcerated there, but they go home 0:15:54.516 --> 0:15:57.916 to their families and to their communities and therefore are 0:15:57.996 --> 0:16:00.876 a much higher risk of transmitting the virus and spreading 0:16:00.876 --> 0:16:04.836 it in those local towns where the prisons and the 0:16:04.916 --> 0:16:07.996 jails are. And so in this moment, we've actually seen 0:16:08.676 --> 0:16:14.316 prisons staff and corrections unions call for the same things 0:16:14.316 --> 0:16:18.516 that we are calling for, which is decarceration, making sure 0:16:18.556 --> 0:16:20.996 that we are letting out as many people as we 0:16:21.076 --> 0:16:23.596 can to manage the pandemic, and then for those who 0:16:23.596 --> 0:16:27.116 remain incarcerated to make sure that they have personal protective 0:16:27.116 --> 0:16:30.916 equipment that they have access to hand sanitizer. And Congress, 0:16:30.996 --> 0:16:34.836 in this moment of stimulus bills can actually pass a 0:16:34.956 --> 0:16:38.676 Reverse mass Incarceration Act to give billions of dollars to 0:16:39.276 --> 0:16:42.956 cities and to states to actually reverse mass incarceration, to 0:16:43.036 --> 0:16:46.716 invest in workforce development, and to actually close jails and 0:16:46.836 --> 0:16:50.876 prisons and invest in the alternatives that actually will overall 0:16:50.876 --> 0:16:53.276 over time as new York City has shown us make 0:16:53.356 --> 0:16:56.676 us safer. I always like to ask our guests on 0:16:56.716 --> 0:17:00.716 the show what listeners can do if they care about 0:17:00.756 --> 0:17:03.396 this problem. What are a couple of things that people 0:17:03.436 --> 0:17:07.756 can do to accelerate the decline of mass incarceration. There 0:17:07.756 --> 0:17:10.476 are some great books out there right now, more books 0:17:10.476 --> 0:17:14.796 than we've ever seen about mass incarceration. James Foreman's Locking 0:17:14.836 --> 0:17:17.676 Up Our Own, which is he's a former public defender 0:17:17.676 --> 0:17:21.596 and now professor at Yale writing about Washington, DC. Great 0:17:21.716 --> 0:17:25.956 sort of inside look into the politics of law and 0:17:26.076 --> 0:17:28.276 order that sort of gave rise to what we have. 0:17:28.876 --> 0:17:31.756 Another great book that I recommend is Albert wood Fox, 0:17:31.756 --> 0:17:35.756 who spent many, many years behind bars. His book called Solitary, 0:17:35.836 --> 0:17:39.396 which is a terrific and gripping read. And you mentioned 0:17:39.436 --> 0:17:43.716 Ava DuVernay's Thirteenth, which is an excellent documentary about the 0:17:43.796 --> 0:17:47.276 rise of mass incarceration, and I highly suggest for folks 0:17:47.356 --> 0:17:51.236 to have a movie night and watch Thirteenth with your friends, 0:17:51.276 --> 0:17:54.156 your family and have a conversation about it. Second, you 0:17:54.196 --> 0:17:57.676 can get involved in very concrete ways, and it doesn't 0:17:57.716 --> 0:18:00.276 require you giving up your day job and becoming a 0:18:00.316 --> 0:18:04.276 full time advocate or activist in November, there will be 0:18:04.436 --> 0:18:08.036 hundreds of prosecutor races that are on the ballot, and 0:18:08.236 --> 0:18:10.996 get to know your prosecutor, get to know what their 0:18:11.076 --> 0:18:14.276 policies are, What are you going to do about charging, 0:18:14.316 --> 0:18:16.676 What are you going to do about bail? How are 0:18:16.716 --> 0:18:20.076 you going to handle plea bargaining? And to make sure 0:18:20.196 --> 0:18:23.076 that when they say that they are progressive, because that 0:18:23.276 --> 0:18:25.596 is a moniker that many people are using when it 0:18:25.636 --> 0:18:28.316 comes to criminal justice reform right now, make sure that 0:18:28.396 --> 0:18:32.076 actually has meaning. Are they willing to make their data 0:18:32.116 --> 0:18:35.436 transparent of how they make decisions about charging? Are they 0:18:35.476 --> 0:18:38.596 willing to come to town halls and meet with community 0:18:38.676 --> 0:18:40.916 members and hear what do they want to see from 0:18:40.916 --> 0:18:44.196 their local prosecutor. Those are all very concrete ways in 0:18:44.236 --> 0:18:46.716 which you, as a person can change the face of 0:18:46.756 --> 0:18:50.396 your local criminal justice system. For listeners who don't think 0:18:50.396 --> 0:18:53.316 of themselves as progressive, I think we might even have 0:18:53.356 --> 0:18:56.636 a few conservative listeners to the show. Is there something 0:18:56.676 --> 0:18:59.676 different that you would encourage them to do? Yes, absolutely so. 0:18:59.756 --> 0:19:04.796 I would encourage them to think about what conservative means 0:19:04.796 --> 0:19:07.356 when it comes to the criminal justice system, because there's 0:19:07.396 --> 0:19:13.236 actually many conservative organizations and elected officials who agree with 0:19:13.316 --> 0:19:15.956 me and I am most definitely not somebody of the 0:19:15.956 --> 0:19:19.436 conservative ilk, but who agree with me that mass incarceration 0:19:19.476 --> 0:19:22.116 as we know it should change, and they agree that 0:19:22.276 --> 0:19:27.556 prosecutors should rely on incarceration less and consider alternatives to incarceration. 0:19:28.116 --> 0:19:30.796 One other concrete thing that people can do, if they 0:19:30.796 --> 0:19:34.276 have the ability to do so, is you can contribute 0:19:34.516 --> 0:19:38.396 very concretely to getting people out of jail. There are 0:19:38.436 --> 0:19:41.796 community bail funds all across the country. There's over fifty 0:19:41.836 --> 0:19:45.636 of them, and people are raising money to bail people 0:19:45.756 --> 0:19:48.476 out of jail because oftentimes people are there on two 0:19:48.596 --> 0:19:51.236 hundred and fifty dollars five hundred dollars and they just 0:19:51.276 --> 0:19:54.636 can't afford the price of their freedom. And especially in 0:19:54.716 --> 0:19:58.116 this moment where we have seen increased immigration detention and 0:19:58.196 --> 0:20:02.676 immigration enforcement despite the pandemic, there are several immigration bond 0:20:02.716 --> 0:20:05.756 funds across the country that are helping to bail people 0:20:05.756 --> 0:20:09.876 out of immigration detention. It's not necessarily systemic change, but 0:20:09.956 --> 0:20:12.836 it is a very obvious way to make a difference 0:20:12.956 --> 0:20:16.316 and to help in this moment to actually get us 0:20:16.356 --> 0:20:19.156 down from two point three million. And Ja, thanks so 0:20:19.236 --> 0:20:22.036 much for joining us Unsolvable. Thanks so much for having 0:20:22.076 --> 0:20:29.076 me Jacob. Solvable is brought to you by Pushkin Industries, 0:20:29.356 --> 0:20:32.076 and as a reminder, we always include links to the 0:20:32.156 --> 0:20:35.196 suggestions our guests make about how you can get involved 0:20:35.436 --> 0:20:39.916 in the episode notes listed in your podcast player. Solvable 0:20:39.996 --> 0:20:43.756 is produced by Camille Baptista, Jocelyn Frank, and Catherine Girardo. 0:20:44.316 --> 0:20:47.876 Mia Lobell is our executive producer. We'll be back next 0:20:47.916 --> 0:20:51.156 week with another episode in our series about racial justice, 0:20:51.756 --> 0:20:55.716 Malcolm Gladwell. We'll talk with Chirog Baines about how police 0:20:55.716 --> 0:21:00.316 impunity is solvable without compromising public safety. I hope you'll 0:21:00.356 --> 0:21:00.796 join us