1
00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:28,636
Speaker 1: Bushkin, this is solvable. On Jacob Weisberg, We're back interviewing

2
00:00:28,756 --> 00:00:31,676
Speaker 1: leaders and change makers about how to solve the world's

3
00:00:31,676 --> 00:00:35,596
Speaker 1: biggest problems, and sometimes it starts with looking back at

4
00:00:35,596 --> 00:00:38,876
Speaker 1: our own history. When, if ever did were we like

5
00:00:39,036 --> 00:00:42,236
Speaker 1: other countries back in nineteen seventy we incarcerated at the

6
00:00:42,276 --> 00:00:45,876
Speaker 1: same rate as other countries in this world. The killing

7
00:00:45,876 --> 00:00:49,436
Speaker 1: of George Floyd has brought calls for transforming policing into

8
00:00:49,516 --> 00:00:52,796
Speaker 1: the national spotlight, with so many people taking to the

9
00:00:52,876 --> 00:00:56,676
Speaker 1: streets demanding action. Now, we have to maintain our confidence

10
00:00:56,956 --> 00:01:00,796
Speaker 1: that even the hardest problems related to racial justice can

11
00:01:00,916 --> 00:01:07,116
Speaker 1: be solved. How do you break this problem down into

12
00:01:07,156 --> 00:01:11,956
Speaker 1: solvable pieces. Decide to prosecuting and charging low level crimes,

13
00:01:12,116 --> 00:01:16,876
Speaker 1: don't criminalize those behaviors. Justice isn't blind. We have to

14
00:01:16,916 --> 00:01:20,196
Speaker 1: be far more critical and thoughtful and have that lens up.

15
00:01:22,156 --> 00:01:25,996
Speaker 1: Today we're going to talk about how to solve mass incarceration.

16
00:01:26,236 --> 00:01:32,116
Speaker 1: This is such a solvable problem. Inscho Rockman used to

17
00:01:32,156 --> 00:01:35,236
Speaker 1: work as a public defender in the Bronx. That job

18
00:01:35,236 --> 00:01:39,876
Speaker 1: illuminated for her the variety of state, national level problems

19
00:01:39,916 --> 00:01:43,396
Speaker 1: with the criminal justice system. The US has five percent

20
00:01:43,436 --> 00:01:46,956
Speaker 1: of the world's population, but currently holds twenty five percent

21
00:01:47,076 --> 00:01:50,876
Speaker 1: of the world's incarcerated people. Rockman is a director of

22
00:01:50,956 --> 00:01:54,876
Speaker 1: Strategy and New Initiatives at the Vera Institute, an organization

23
00:01:54,916 --> 00:01:58,796
Speaker 1: devoted to improving the criminal justice system in the United States.

24
00:01:59,556 --> 00:02:04,476
Speaker 1: Rockman thinks those extremely disproportionate numbers represent a problem we

25
00:02:04,556 --> 00:02:07,676
Speaker 1: can solve. Inch I'm so excited to talk to you

26
00:02:07,716 --> 00:02:11,276
Speaker 1: today about this because mass incarceration is something I think

27
00:02:11,316 --> 00:02:12,556
Speaker 1: a lot about it, and I know a lot of

28
00:02:12,556 --> 00:02:16,276
Speaker 1: our listeners are super interested in. I wonder how you

29
00:02:16,396 --> 00:02:20,756
Speaker 1: define the problem as something we can solve. Yep, we

30
00:02:20,836 --> 00:02:23,836
Speaker 1: have two point three million people behind bars today. That's

31
00:02:24,596 --> 00:02:27,396
Speaker 1: seven hundred and fifty thousand people in jails and another

32
00:02:27,556 --> 00:02:31,556
Speaker 1: one point five million in prisons, and it's actually solvable.

33
00:02:31,956 --> 00:02:35,716
Speaker 1: So what's your plausible goal to get it down from

34
00:02:35,756 --> 00:02:38,556
Speaker 1: two point three million you said in jails in prison

35
00:02:38,676 --> 00:02:42,036
Speaker 1: to what number? If we just look at the average

36
00:02:42,116 --> 00:02:45,756
Speaker 1: incarceration rate across the rest of the world, and if

37
00:02:45,796 --> 00:02:48,716
Speaker 1: America were to incarcerate at that rate, we would get

38
00:02:48,716 --> 00:02:51,276
Speaker 1: down from two point three million to three hundred and

39
00:02:51,316 --> 00:02:54,756
Speaker 1: sixty thousand. That's something like doing the math my head.

40
00:02:54,796 --> 00:02:58,436
Speaker 1: A factor of seven. Yep. That's a remarkable number when

41
00:02:58,436 --> 00:03:01,356
Speaker 1: you think about it, and that's what we could and

42
00:03:01,556 --> 00:03:05,316
Speaker 1: should and can actually do if we decide to do

43
00:03:05,476 --> 00:03:08,476
Speaker 1: business differently from the beginning of the system to the end.

44
00:03:09,236 --> 00:03:12,676
Speaker 1: Just since George Floyd's killing, we've been in the midst

45
00:03:12,676 --> 00:03:17,276
Speaker 1: of a national even international movement against police violence and

46
00:03:17,396 --> 00:03:23,196
Speaker 1: for racial justice. Does that change the opportunity around the incarceration?

47
00:03:24,556 --> 00:03:28,756
Speaker 1: It does, but only if we make enough of this moment.

48
00:03:28,876 --> 00:03:31,356
Speaker 1: And one thing that I want to point out is

49
00:03:31,396 --> 00:03:34,116
Speaker 1: that for many of us it feels like a moment

50
00:03:34,156 --> 00:03:36,796
Speaker 1: of opportunity to make sure that the path we walk

51
00:03:36,876 --> 00:03:39,596
Speaker 1: to get here with the criminal justice system that we have,

52
00:03:39,716 --> 00:03:42,876
Speaker 1: the path moving forward isn't the same. But we have

53
00:03:42,916 --> 00:03:46,316
Speaker 1: to also stop and acknowledge the moment of incredible pain

54
00:03:46,636 --> 00:03:50,236
Speaker 1: and hurt and harm that has happened. That it took

55
00:03:50,276 --> 00:03:55,436
Speaker 1: the senseless and ruthless killing of a black man by

56
00:03:55,476 --> 00:03:58,836
Speaker 1: a police officer with his need to his neck for

57
00:03:58,916 --> 00:04:02,556
Speaker 1: the country to actually realize what actually happens with impunity

58
00:04:02,556 --> 00:04:04,516
Speaker 1: each and every day in this country. And it's not

59
00:04:04,596 --> 00:04:08,196
Speaker 1: just a crisis of now, but it's a crisis that's

60
00:04:08,236 --> 00:04:12,436
Speaker 1: been here literally since slavery. So yes, there is opportunity,

61
00:04:12,516 --> 00:04:15,116
Speaker 1: but we actually won't make enough of the opportunity if

62
00:04:15,116 --> 00:04:18,236
Speaker 1: we don't recognize the long history and roots that got

63
00:04:18,276 --> 00:04:20,596
Speaker 1: us to this place where we all feel like it's

64
00:04:20,596 --> 00:04:23,876
Speaker 1: not only crisis but a moment of hope. But it

65
00:04:23,916 --> 00:04:25,796
Speaker 1: really is a moment of crisis, and we have to

66
00:04:25,876 --> 00:04:28,676
Speaker 1: lean into that first before we think about the opportunity

67
00:04:28,676 --> 00:04:31,796
Speaker 1: in the moment. These two issues of police violence and

68
00:04:31,836 --> 00:04:34,836
Speaker 1: mass incarspiration are obviously so closely related. They're two sides

69
00:04:34,836 --> 00:04:37,236
Speaker 1: of the same coin. They're part of the same system.

70
00:04:37,276 --> 00:04:42,156
Speaker 1: Are you concerned that we may be pointed towards improving

71
00:04:42,196 --> 00:04:45,556
Speaker 1: the one without addressing the other. What we have seen

72
00:04:45,756 --> 00:04:50,596
Speaker 1: since the video went viral of George Floyd's murder is states,

73
00:04:50,676 --> 00:04:54,236
Speaker 1: in cities and even the federal government has moved to

74
00:04:54,516 --> 00:04:59,516
Speaker 1: ban chokeholds, to spend less money on policing and more

75
00:04:59,636 --> 00:05:02,276
Speaker 1: in communities, and all of that is a great start.

76
00:05:02,356 --> 00:05:05,076
Speaker 1: But if that's where we start and that's where we end, yes,

77
00:05:05,156 --> 00:05:07,596
Speaker 1: we've missed the larger opportunity to say, what do we

78
00:05:07,676 --> 00:05:10,716
Speaker 1: do about two point three million and behind bars? Two

79
00:05:10,716 --> 00:05:14,396
Speaker 1: points three million people behind bars, It's just shocking number.

80
00:05:14,436 --> 00:05:16,756
Speaker 1: It's one of those numbers you almost don't process. You

81
00:05:16,836 --> 00:05:19,076
Speaker 1: just you hear it. It's so many, it's got so

82
00:05:19,116 --> 00:05:22,236
Speaker 1: many digits. Has the United States ever had a normal

83
00:05:22,396 --> 00:05:26,436
Speaker 1: level of incarceration? When were we ever like other countries?

84
00:05:26,476 --> 00:05:29,516
Speaker 1: If we were ever like other countries, we weren't always

85
00:05:29,516 --> 00:05:32,956
Speaker 1: this way. In the nineteen seventies, we actually had the

86
00:05:33,076 --> 00:05:37,276
Speaker 1: same rate of incarceration as other countries that we think

87
00:05:37,276 --> 00:05:40,556
Speaker 1: of as our peers, as England and France and Germany.

88
00:05:40,876 --> 00:05:43,796
Speaker 1: But what changed is that in the nineteen seventies and

89
00:05:43,876 --> 00:05:46,836
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, as the whole world went through a crisis

90
00:05:46,836 --> 00:05:53,076
Speaker 1: of recession economic setbacks, countries like Western European countries invested

91
00:05:53,196 --> 00:05:56,716
Speaker 1: in the social services that they invested in responses that

92
00:05:56,756 --> 00:05:59,756
Speaker 1: weren't just punitive. And what America did was take a

93
00:05:59,756 --> 00:06:03,916
Speaker 1: different trajectory. We went to truth and sentencing, tough on crime,

94
00:06:03,956 --> 00:06:06,116
Speaker 1: the war on drugs, and that led us to the

95
00:06:06,156 --> 00:06:08,676
Speaker 1: outlier that we are today. Of course, for anyone who

96
00:06:08,716 --> 00:06:12,796
Speaker 1: hasn't seen at the Avadverney documentary, Thirteenth gives an amazing

97
00:06:12,836 --> 00:06:17,316
Speaker 1: sense of the continuity between slavery, policing and mass incarceration.

98
00:06:17,676 --> 00:06:19,676
Speaker 1: This is a four hundred year history, but it also

99
00:06:19,756 --> 00:06:22,516
Speaker 1: does have these big landmarks. One of them that comes

100
00:06:22,596 --> 00:06:25,796
Speaker 1: up a lot is the Crime Bill in nineteen ninety

101
00:06:25,796 --> 00:06:28,916
Speaker 1: four that Congress passed and Bill Clinton signed, which was

102
00:06:28,996 --> 00:06:33,236
Speaker 1: kind of a consensus bill, was supported by Republicans and Democrats,

103
00:06:33,236 --> 00:06:36,556
Speaker 1: and there were billions of dollars in that bill for

104
00:06:36,916 --> 00:06:41,076
Speaker 1: building jails in prison as well as for increasing police

105
00:06:41,156 --> 00:06:44,476
Speaker 1: and arming police. I mean, do you think of that

106
00:06:44,636 --> 00:06:49,036
Speaker 1: as the real modern watershed in mass incarceration. It was

107
00:06:49,076 --> 00:06:52,516
Speaker 1: certainly the accelerant on a system that was already on fire.

108
00:06:52,956 --> 00:06:55,476
Speaker 1: In The nineteen ninety four Crime Bill, by the way,

109
00:06:55,636 --> 00:07:00,156
Speaker 1: enjoyed broad support from Democrats and Republicans, including many black

110
00:07:00,196 --> 00:07:03,836
Speaker 1: members of Congress at the time, because that was all

111
00:07:03,876 --> 00:07:08,836
Speaker 1: that was on offer to in theory, help communities from

112
00:07:09,156 --> 00:07:12,436
Speaker 1: crime and from violence. What the difference has been from

113
00:07:12,476 --> 00:07:15,156
Speaker 1: now twenty five years on from when the Crime Bill

114
00:07:15,276 --> 00:07:18,316
Speaker 1: was passed, was we recognize that there are other options,

115
00:07:18,316 --> 00:07:20,516
Speaker 1: and there are cheaper options. There are options that don't

116
00:07:20,556 --> 00:07:24,036
Speaker 1: result in the wanton killing of black and brown people

117
00:07:24,076 --> 00:07:26,396
Speaker 1: in this country that we can invest in and that

118
00:07:26,436 --> 00:07:30,196
Speaker 1: will actually deliver true public safety. I mean, there seems

119
00:07:30,196 --> 00:07:33,356
Speaker 1: to be a certain kind of consensus now about some

120
00:07:33,436 --> 00:07:37,396
Speaker 1: kinds of reform. There was the First Step Act that

121
00:07:37,556 --> 00:07:41,916
Speaker 1: Donald Trump signed, and even now post George Floyd, you

122
00:07:42,276 --> 00:07:45,956
Speaker 1: Donald Trump is supported a bill that would ban I

123
00:07:45,996 --> 00:07:49,196
Speaker 1: guess some but not all, chokeholds. But I mean, first

124
00:07:49,196 --> 00:07:53,956
Speaker 1: of all, you see the opportunity for real reform at

125
00:07:53,956 --> 00:07:56,716
Speaker 1: the moment, and are you worried that when you do

126
00:07:56,796 --> 00:07:59,596
Speaker 1: have these moments of consensus like in ninety four, you

127
00:07:59,636 --> 00:08:03,756
Speaker 1: sort of go with the lowest common denominator and don't

128
00:08:03,796 --> 00:08:08,196
Speaker 1: think through the potential consequences of what you're doing. When

129
00:08:08,236 --> 00:08:10,756
Speaker 1: the First Step Act passed a couple of years ago,

130
00:08:10,956 --> 00:08:15,316
Speaker 1: for some it was hailed as a remarkable watershed moment

131
00:08:15,396 --> 00:08:17,436
Speaker 1: and that it was the first time in decades that

132
00:08:17,476 --> 00:08:20,516
Speaker 1: the federal government had really stepped in on a criminal

133
00:08:20,556 --> 00:08:23,796
Speaker 1: justice issue, and that was led by a Republican administration,

134
00:08:23,916 --> 00:08:26,356
Speaker 1: no less. But if you actually look at what the

135
00:08:26,396 --> 00:08:29,236
Speaker 1: First Step Act did, which it released a couple thousand

136
00:08:29,316 --> 00:08:33,076
Speaker 1: people from prison, which actually touches only a fraction of

137
00:08:33,076 --> 00:08:37,156
Speaker 1: our overall one point five million people in prison and

138
00:08:37,236 --> 00:08:40,076
Speaker 1: doesn't even touch people in state prisons, you really sort

139
00:08:40,076 --> 00:08:41,996
Speaker 1: of get a sense of just how much of a

140
00:08:42,076 --> 00:08:44,916
Speaker 1: first step, and a tiny first step at that it was.

141
00:08:45,356 --> 00:08:48,356
Speaker 1: Here's the fascinating thing about this moment, Jacob, is that

142
00:08:48,476 --> 00:08:51,276
Speaker 1: the calls right now, in the wake of George Floyd's

143
00:08:51,316 --> 00:08:54,036
Speaker 1: murder and the murder of so many other black people

144
00:08:54,236 --> 00:08:56,116
Speaker 1: at the hands of the police, it's not just for

145
00:08:56,236 --> 00:08:58,876
Speaker 1: things that are a minuscule first step. It's actually calls

146
00:08:58,916 --> 00:09:02,316
Speaker 1: like defund the police and to dismantle the police, as

147
00:09:02,316 --> 00:09:05,156
Speaker 1: we saw the Minneapolis City Council vote to do. And

148
00:09:05,196 --> 00:09:08,876
Speaker 1: so that's the opportunity of now, is that where consensus

149
00:09:08,956 --> 00:09:13,116
Speaker 1: is is so much further I would say, it's not

150
00:09:13,156 --> 00:09:14,996
Speaker 1: even so much further to the left, it's so much

151
00:09:15,036 --> 00:09:19,116
Speaker 1: further towards looking for a real transformative solution and not

152
00:09:19,196 --> 00:09:22,356
Speaker 1: just tinkering around the edges. And so there's so many

153
00:09:22,356 --> 00:09:26,876
Speaker 1: different components to this problem, from bail reform to sentencing reform,

154
00:09:26,956 --> 00:09:30,436
Speaker 1: to police reform to what happens to prisoners post release.

155
00:09:30,476 --> 00:09:34,516
Speaker 1: How do you break this problem down into solvable pieces

156
00:09:34,596 --> 00:09:38,436
Speaker 1: and how do you prioritize which are the most important pieces. Yeah,

157
00:09:38,476 --> 00:09:41,476
Speaker 1: so I think if this problem as having three components,

158
00:09:41,676 --> 00:09:44,196
Speaker 1: and you know, how do we get from the two

159
00:09:44,236 --> 00:09:47,356
Speaker 1: point three million to three hundred and sixty thousand. The

160
00:09:47,436 --> 00:09:51,956
Speaker 1: first is the reckoning an acknowledgement of the racial disparities

161
00:09:51,996 --> 00:09:56,556
Speaker 1: and making policy choices and practice choices differently. So one

162
00:09:56,596 --> 00:09:59,676
Speaker 1: concrete example is I was once sitting in a prosecutor's

163
00:09:59,756 --> 00:10:03,196
Speaker 1: office and I saw on his desk a map of

164
00:10:03,236 --> 00:10:07,836
Speaker 1: the city and he actually had literally circles around neighborhoods,

165
00:10:07,836 --> 00:10:10,116
Speaker 1: And I asked, what are those and he said, well,

166
00:10:10,236 --> 00:10:13,756
Speaker 1: those are the neighborhoods where they're predominantly black and brown

167
00:10:13,836 --> 00:10:16,916
Speaker 1: communities that live there. And so when we get a

168
00:10:16,956 --> 00:10:19,676
Speaker 1: case that comes from the police from those neighborhoods, we

169
00:10:19,716 --> 00:10:22,156
Speaker 1: actually sort of double check it, triple check it to

170
00:10:22,276 --> 00:10:24,876
Speaker 1: make sure that we are thinking carefully about whether or

171
00:10:24,916 --> 00:10:28,236
Speaker 1: not to prosecute this traffic stop or this drug arrest.

172
00:10:28,676 --> 00:10:31,676
Speaker 1: We know that these are the communities where the vast

173
00:10:31,716 --> 00:10:34,396
Speaker 1: majority of cases in the city are coming from, and

174
00:10:34,436 --> 00:10:38,276
Speaker 1: so we're making an active decision to look carefully and

175
00:10:38,316 --> 00:10:40,276
Speaker 1: make a choice of whether we're going to move forward

176
00:10:40,396 --> 00:10:43,756
Speaker 1: or not. It's basically saying justice isn't blind. We have

177
00:10:43,876 --> 00:10:46,636
Speaker 1: to be far more critical and thoughtful and have that

178
00:10:46,756 --> 00:10:50,316
Speaker 1: lens on. The second part is to do everything we

179
00:10:50,356 --> 00:10:53,516
Speaker 1: can do to choose not to put people in jail,

180
00:10:53,556 --> 00:10:57,116
Speaker 1: in prison to quote unquote decarsorate and so bail reform

181
00:10:57,236 --> 00:11:00,116
Speaker 1: is a really obvious way to limit the number of

182
00:11:00,116 --> 00:11:04,276
Speaker 1: people who go to jail. Moreover, we can make different

183
00:11:04,276 --> 00:11:08,596
Speaker 1: decisions on sentencing actually addressing the underlying harms that led

184
00:11:08,636 --> 00:11:12,996
Speaker 1: to that person doing that harmful act in the first place,

185
00:11:13,076 --> 00:11:16,676
Speaker 1: or addressing what can change the circumstances of your life

186
00:11:16,676 --> 00:11:20,196
Speaker 1: so that actually never happens again. And then the third

187
00:11:20,236 --> 00:11:23,156
Speaker 1: part is for when we do incarcerate, we need to

188
00:11:23,196 --> 00:11:26,476
Speaker 1: do it radically differently than how we currently do it.

189
00:11:26,716 --> 00:11:30,476
Speaker 1: And what that looks like is my organization VIA partnered

190
00:11:30,476 --> 00:11:35,076
Speaker 1: with the Department of Correction in Connecticut to actually transform

191
00:11:35,196 --> 00:11:38,636
Speaker 1: some of the prison units there are maximum security units.

192
00:11:38,716 --> 00:11:41,036
Speaker 1: They look much more like life on the outside. The

193
00:11:41,116 --> 00:11:43,396
Speaker 1: young men who are there go to school or they

194
00:11:43,436 --> 00:11:46,316
Speaker 1: work every day. They are quote unquote paid in sort

195
00:11:46,356 --> 00:11:49,836
Speaker 1: of rewards and points where they get more privileges and

196
00:11:49,996 --> 00:11:52,796
Speaker 1: free time and things like that. If they are able

197
00:11:52,876 --> 00:11:56,196
Speaker 1: to be more productive members of that community, and they

198
00:11:56,196 --> 00:11:59,756
Speaker 1: actually talk through conflict in what are called restorative circles,

199
00:11:59,836 --> 00:12:03,196
Speaker 1: where you talk it through as opposed to using punishment

200
00:12:03,196 --> 00:12:06,756
Speaker 1: and discipline as the first reaction. And what we've seen

201
00:12:06,916 --> 00:12:10,556
Speaker 1: is that radically different way of actually doing incarceration has

202
00:12:10,676 --> 00:12:14,556
Speaker 1: tremendous impact officers who work They say, this is the

203
00:12:14,556 --> 00:12:17,516
Speaker 1: most relaxed place in prison I have ever been. It

204
00:12:17,556 --> 00:12:21,476
Speaker 1: feels comfortable. I actually feel safe. And so let's talk

205
00:12:21,516 --> 00:12:25,836
Speaker 1: about COVID nineteen for a minute. The pandemic is creating

206
00:12:25,836 --> 00:12:29,796
Speaker 1: a kind of natural experiment in decarceration. People are being

207
00:12:29,876 --> 00:12:33,436
Speaker 1: let out. A lot of people have a visceral reaction

208
00:12:33,556 --> 00:12:35,276
Speaker 1: that there's going to be more crime if you let

209
00:12:35,316 --> 00:12:39,196
Speaker 1: more people out of prison. The decline in crime did

210
00:12:39,316 --> 00:12:43,396
Speaker 1: correlate with mass incarceration. Why are people wrong to think

211
00:12:43,556 --> 00:12:47,756
Speaker 1: that de incarceration will lead to an increasing crime. That's

212
00:12:47,756 --> 00:12:51,596
Speaker 1: actually not true. It's not statistically true from the research,

213
00:12:51,996 --> 00:12:54,796
Speaker 1: and it's also not true what we've seen in concrete

214
00:12:54,796 --> 00:12:58,476
Speaker 1: examples around the country today. In New York City, our

215
00:12:58,516 --> 00:13:01,556
Speaker 1: jail population is down to less than four thousand people

216
00:13:01,596 --> 00:13:04,716
Speaker 1: in jail from a high of twenty two thousand back

217
00:13:04,716 --> 00:13:07,556
Speaker 1: in the early nineteen nineties. Back then in the city

218
00:13:07,796 --> 00:13:11,796
Speaker 1: we had over three thousand homicides a year, and last

219
00:13:11,836 --> 00:13:15,316
Speaker 1: year we had about three hundred homicides. That's a radical

220
00:13:15,476 --> 00:13:20,476
Speaker 1: change in the level of crime and public safety. And

221
00:13:20,516 --> 00:13:24,476
Speaker 1: that's actually the statistics that are true when we incarcerate less.

222
00:13:24,996 --> 00:13:26,956
Speaker 1: Who are the people we really shouldn't let out? Even

223
00:13:26,956 --> 00:13:29,996
Speaker 1: if we let out six out of seven, who's the

224
00:13:30,076 --> 00:13:33,796
Speaker 1: one out of seven? And I hear even reform advocates

225
00:13:34,196 --> 00:13:36,476
Speaker 1: making a lot of exceptions. We shouldn't let people out

226
00:13:36,516 --> 00:13:39,076
Speaker 1: who are convicted of domestic violence, We shouldn't let out

227
00:13:39,156 --> 00:13:42,156
Speaker 1: violent offenders, we shouldn't let out sex offenders, we shouldn't

228
00:13:42,196 --> 00:13:44,476
Speaker 1: let out white collar criminals. You know, should we let

229
00:13:44,476 --> 00:13:47,596
Speaker 1: Bernie Madoff out of prison? Who are the people that

230
00:13:47,876 --> 00:13:50,756
Speaker 1: you think, in the end we shouldn't let out of prison?

231
00:13:51,356 --> 00:13:53,476
Speaker 1: So I think that framing of the question is the

232
00:13:53,516 --> 00:13:55,636
Speaker 1: wrong one, and so I'm going to push back on it.

233
00:13:56,236 --> 00:13:59,836
Speaker 1: The question is who can we let out? And the

234
00:14:00,596 --> 00:14:06,116
Speaker 1: answer is folks who are safe and ready to walk

235
00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:09,996
Speaker 1: among us, who are actually the vast majority of people

236
00:14:10,036 --> 00:14:12,476
Speaker 1: who are currently behind bars? And how do we know

237
00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:15,876
Speaker 1: that it's not based on the crime that you are

238
00:14:15,876 --> 00:14:19,556
Speaker 1: accused or convicted. Of those folks who were convicted of

239
00:14:19,636 --> 00:14:22,756
Speaker 1: a murder when they were eighteen or nineteen and they've

240
00:14:22,756 --> 00:14:26,116
Speaker 1: been behind bars for twenty years, they are no longer

241
00:14:26,196 --> 00:14:29,996
Speaker 1: that same person who committed a violent act twenty years ago,

242
00:14:30,356 --> 00:14:33,556
Speaker 1: and how do we know that superintendence and wardens saying

243
00:14:33,796 --> 00:14:35,876
Speaker 1: I would have this guy's my neighbor, I would have

244
00:14:35,996 --> 00:14:39,396
Speaker 1: this person as my family member. There are because it

245
00:14:39,476 --> 00:14:42,676
Speaker 1: is mass incarceration. There are a huge number of people

246
00:14:42,756 --> 00:14:47,956
Speaker 1: whose jobs and livelihoods are working in prisons. Right, how

247
00:14:47,956 --> 00:14:53,036
Speaker 1: do you get prison guards to support the incarceration workforce development?

248
00:14:53,476 --> 00:14:56,876
Speaker 1: Where we've seen prisons is often in more rural parts

249
00:14:56,956 --> 00:14:59,396
Speaker 1: of the country or more rural parts of a state,

250
00:14:59,436 --> 00:15:01,876
Speaker 1: where they are the biggest employer in many of these

251
00:15:01,916 --> 00:15:05,396
Speaker 1: small towns and cities that they're in. And so that

252
00:15:05,596 --> 00:15:08,756
Speaker 1: is the key way to get them on quote unquote

253
00:15:08,756 --> 00:15:10,636
Speaker 1: our side, because I actually don't know that it's a

254
00:15:10,676 --> 00:15:15,036
Speaker 1: matter of sides. Give them skills that you put us

255
00:15:15,036 --> 00:15:18,836
Speaker 1: in the twenty first century that aren't necessarily factory work. Likewise,

256
00:15:19,036 --> 00:15:21,596
Speaker 1: we have to get out of the twentieth century mentality

257
00:15:21,756 --> 00:15:24,796
Speaker 1: of a prison guard job, which has passed down from

258
00:15:24,836 --> 00:15:29,036
Speaker 1: generation to generation in a prison town, and the pandemic

259
00:15:29,116 --> 00:15:33,436
Speaker 1: has really brought together I would say strange bedfellows, because

260
00:15:33,476 --> 00:15:36,636
Speaker 1: who else really suffers when we don't decarceerate our jails

261
00:15:36,636 --> 00:15:39,756
Speaker 1: and prisons and they are tinder boxes for this pandemic.

262
00:15:40,276 --> 00:15:44,516
Speaker 1: The staff, the corrections officers, and other medical staff and

263
00:15:44,596 --> 00:15:47,876
Speaker 1: workers who work in jails and prisons, and not only

264
00:15:47,916 --> 00:15:51,516
Speaker 1: are there and as susceptible to getting the virus as

265
00:15:51,796 --> 00:15:54,196
Speaker 1: the people who are incarcerated there, but they go home

266
00:15:54,516 --> 00:15:57,916
Speaker 1: to their families and to their communities and therefore are

267
00:15:57,996 --> 00:16:00,876
Speaker 1: a much higher risk of transmitting the virus and spreading

268
00:16:00,876 --> 00:16:04,836
Speaker 1: it in those local towns where the prisons and the

269
00:16:04,916 --> 00:16:07,996
Speaker 1: jails are. And so in this moment, we've actually seen

270
00:16:08,676 --> 00:16:14,316
Speaker 1: prisons staff and corrections unions call for the same things

271
00:16:14,316 --> 00:16:18,516
Speaker 1: that we are calling for, which is decarceration, making sure

272
00:16:18,556 --> 00:16:20,996
Speaker 1: that we are letting out as many people as we

273
00:16:21,076 --> 00:16:23,596
Speaker 1: can to manage the pandemic, and then for those who

274
00:16:23,596 --> 00:16:27,116
Speaker 1: remain incarcerated to make sure that they have personal protective

275
00:16:27,116 --> 00:16:30,916
Speaker 1: equipment that they have access to hand sanitizer. And Congress,

276
00:16:30,996 --> 00:16:34,836
Speaker 1: in this moment of stimulus bills can actually pass a

277
00:16:34,956 --> 00:16:38,676
Speaker 1: Reverse mass Incarceration Act to give billions of dollars to

278
00:16:39,276 --> 00:16:42,956
Speaker 1: cities and to states to actually reverse mass incarceration, to

279
00:16:43,036 --> 00:16:46,716
Speaker 1: invest in workforce development, and to actually close jails and

280
00:16:46,836 --> 00:16:50,876
Speaker 1: prisons and invest in the alternatives that actually will overall

281
00:16:50,876 --> 00:16:53,276
Speaker 1: over time as new York City has shown us make

282
00:16:53,356 --> 00:16:56,676
Speaker 1: us safer. I always like to ask our guests on

283
00:16:56,716 --> 00:17:00,716
Speaker 1: the show what listeners can do if they care about

284
00:17:00,756 --> 00:17:03,396
Speaker 1: this problem. What are a couple of things that people

285
00:17:03,436 --> 00:17:07,756
Speaker 1: can do to accelerate the decline of mass incarceration. There

286
00:17:07,756 --> 00:17:10,476
Speaker 1: are some great books out there right now, more books

287
00:17:10,476 --> 00:17:14,796
Speaker 1: than we've ever seen about mass incarceration. James Foreman's Locking

288
00:17:14,836 --> 00:17:17,676
Speaker 1: Up Our Own, which is he's a former public defender

289
00:17:17,676 --> 00:17:21,596
Speaker 1: and now professor at Yale writing about Washington, DC. Great

290
00:17:21,716 --> 00:17:25,956
Speaker 1: sort of inside look into the politics of law and

291
00:17:26,076 --> 00:17:28,276
Speaker 1: order that sort of gave rise to what we have.

292
00:17:28,876 --> 00:17:31,756
Speaker 1: Another great book that I recommend is Albert wood Fox,

293
00:17:31,756 --> 00:17:35,756
Speaker 1: who spent many, many years behind bars. His book called Solitary,

294
00:17:35,836 --> 00:17:39,396
Speaker 1: which is a terrific and gripping read. And you mentioned

295
00:17:39,436 --> 00:17:43,716
Speaker 1: Ava DuVernay's Thirteenth, which is an excellent documentary about the

296
00:17:43,796 --> 00:17:47,276
Speaker 1: rise of mass incarceration, and I highly suggest for folks

297
00:17:47,356 --> 00:17:51,236
Speaker 1: to have a movie night and watch Thirteenth with your friends,

298
00:17:51,276 --> 00:17:54,156
Speaker 1: your family and have a conversation about it. Second, you

299
00:17:54,196 --> 00:17:57,676
Speaker 1: can get involved in very concrete ways, and it doesn't

300
00:17:57,716 --> 00:18:00,276
Speaker 1: require you giving up your day job and becoming a

301
00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:04,276
Speaker 1: full time advocate or activist in November, there will be

302
00:18:04,436 --> 00:18:08,036
Speaker 1: hundreds of prosecutor races that are on the ballot, and

303
00:18:08,236 --> 00:18:10,996
Speaker 1: get to know your prosecutor, get to know what their

304
00:18:11,076 --> 00:18:14,276
Speaker 1: policies are, What are you going to do about charging,

305
00:18:14,316 --> 00:18:16,676
Speaker 1: What are you going to do about bail? How are

306
00:18:16,716 --> 00:18:20,076
Speaker 1: you going to handle plea bargaining? And to make sure

307
00:18:20,196 --> 00:18:23,076
Speaker 1: that when they say that they are progressive, because that

308
00:18:23,276 --> 00:18:25,596
Speaker 1: is a moniker that many people are using when it

309
00:18:25,636 --> 00:18:28,316
Speaker 1: comes to criminal justice reform right now, make sure that

310
00:18:28,396 --> 00:18:32,076
Speaker 1: actually has meaning. Are they willing to make their data

311
00:18:32,116 --> 00:18:35,436
Speaker 1: transparent of how they make decisions about charging? Are they

312
00:18:35,476 --> 00:18:38,596
Speaker 1: willing to come to town halls and meet with community

313
00:18:38,676 --> 00:18:40,916
Speaker 1: members and hear what do they want to see from

314
00:18:40,916 --> 00:18:44,196
Speaker 1: their local prosecutor. Those are all very concrete ways in

315
00:18:44,236 --> 00:18:46,716
Speaker 1: which you, as a person can change the face of

316
00:18:46,756 --> 00:18:50,396
Speaker 1: your local criminal justice system. For listeners who don't think

317
00:18:50,396 --> 00:18:53,316
Speaker 1: of themselves as progressive, I think we might even have

318
00:18:53,356 --> 00:18:56,636
Speaker 1: a few conservative listeners to the show. Is there something

319
00:18:56,676 --> 00:18:59,676
Speaker 1: different that you would encourage them to do? Yes, absolutely so.

320
00:18:59,756 --> 00:19:04,796
Speaker 1: I would encourage them to think about what conservative means

321
00:19:04,796 --> 00:19:07,356
Speaker 1: when it comes to the criminal justice system, because there's

322
00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:13,236
Speaker 1: actually many conservative organizations and elected officials who agree with

323
00:19:13,316 --> 00:19:15,956
Speaker 1: me and I am most definitely not somebody of the

324
00:19:15,956 --> 00:19:19,436
Speaker 1: conservative ilk, but who agree with me that mass incarceration

325
00:19:19,476 --> 00:19:22,116
Speaker 1: as we know it should change, and they agree that

326
00:19:22,276 --> 00:19:27,556
Speaker 1: prosecutors should rely on incarceration less and consider alternatives to incarceration.

327
00:19:28,116 --> 00:19:30,796
Speaker 1: One other concrete thing that people can do, if they

328
00:19:30,796 --> 00:19:34,276
Speaker 1: have the ability to do so, is you can contribute

329
00:19:34,516 --> 00:19:38,396
Speaker 1: very concretely to getting people out of jail. There are

330
00:19:38,436 --> 00:19:41,796
Speaker 1: community bail funds all across the country. There's over fifty

331
00:19:41,836 --> 00:19:45,636
Speaker 1: of them, and people are raising money to bail people

332
00:19:45,756 --> 00:19:48,476
Speaker 1: out of jail because oftentimes people are there on two

333
00:19:48,596 --> 00:19:51,236
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty dollars five hundred dollars and they just

334
00:19:51,276 --> 00:19:54,636
Speaker 1: can't afford the price of their freedom. And especially in

335
00:19:54,716 --> 00:19:58,116
Speaker 1: this moment where we have seen increased immigration detention and

336
00:19:58,196 --> 00:20:02,676
Speaker 1: immigration enforcement despite the pandemic, there are several immigration bond

337
00:20:02,716 --> 00:20:05,756
Speaker 1: funds across the country that are helping to bail people

338
00:20:05,756 --> 00:20:09,876
Speaker 1: out of immigration detention. It's not necessarily systemic change, but

339
00:20:09,956 --> 00:20:12,836
Speaker 1: it is a very obvious way to make a difference

340
00:20:12,956 --> 00:20:16,316
Speaker 1: and to help in this moment to actually get us

341
00:20:16,356 --> 00:20:19,156
Speaker 1: down from two point three million. And Ja, thanks so

342
00:20:19,236 --> 00:20:22,036
Speaker 1: much for joining us Unsolvable. Thanks so much for having

343
00:20:22,076 --> 00:20:29,076
Speaker 1: me Jacob. Solvable is brought to you by Pushkin Industries,

344
00:20:29,356 --> 00:20:32,076
Speaker 1: and as a reminder, we always include links to the

345
00:20:32,156 --> 00:20:35,196
Speaker 1: suggestions our guests make about how you can get involved

346
00:20:35,436 --> 00:20:39,916
Speaker 1: in the episode notes listed in your podcast player. Solvable

347
00:20:39,996 --> 00:20:43,756
Speaker 1: is produced by Camille Baptista, Jocelyn Frank, and Catherine Girardo.

348
00:20:44,316 --> 00:20:47,876
Speaker 1: Mia Lobell is our executive producer. We'll be back next

349
00:20:47,916 --> 00:20:51,156
Speaker 1: week with another episode in our series about racial justice,

350
00:20:51,756 --> 00:20:55,716
Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell. We'll talk with Chirog Baines about how police

351
00:20:55,716 --> 00:21:00,316
Speaker 1: impunity is solvable without compromising public safety. I hope you'll

352
00:21:00,356 --> 00:21:00,796
Speaker 1: join us