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Speaker 1: This is the me eat your podcast, coming at you shirtless,

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Speaker 1: severely bug bitten in my case underwear, listening me to

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Speaker 1: eat the podcast. You can't predict anything. Oh all right,

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Speaker 1: before before we get two started. Uh, Jimmy Dorn you're

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Speaker 1: freshman the wheat fields of Montana. Yeah, I'm just back,

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Speaker 1: just just the other day. You go out every year

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Speaker 1: and cut wheat every year and my friends wheat farm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah two Uh, a couple of weeks of harvests and

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Speaker 1: just had a little break, came back to the bar

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Speaker 1: for a couple of days, take care for the business,

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Speaker 1: the restaurant. Uh, end of the month stuff, and then

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Speaker 1: right back to go. We just switched over from cutting

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Speaker 1: winter wheat. Now we're moving on to spring wheet, which

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Speaker 1: is still a little bit high moisture. So it's worked

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Speaker 1: out perfect. Like how why did you? Why? And how

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Speaker 1: how many years have been caught in wheat? Poor? This

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Speaker 1: is my four or third year and it was one

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Speaker 1: of my best friends his family. I met him actually

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Speaker 1: we worked at a restaurant together here in Seattle, and um,

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Speaker 1: his his family runs a big wheat operation north of

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Speaker 1: Great Falls Danner. There's really fantastic people in the Gas

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Speaker 1: botas and uh, we just went through a deal and

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Speaker 1: and he had his father actually unfortunately passed away at

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Speaker 1: a pretty young age, and kind of, you know, it

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Speaker 1: was kind of a it's like just kind of all

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Speaker 1: hands on deck kind of things. So I went back

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Speaker 1: and helped out. And I just love it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: driving a big kind of raccoons and a yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: definitely the raccoons skit the way occasionally, but yeah, they

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Speaker 1: trust me driving really huge, cool, super expensive piece of equipment,

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Speaker 1: and I just love it. So tell me how like

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Speaker 1: give me the both of even getting like how much

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Speaker 1: we cut? How quick? Well, I couldn't really break it

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Speaker 1: down how much? How quick? I mean we feel a

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Speaker 1: lot of semis. It's it's we can fill up like

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Speaker 1: a seven fifty bushel hopper in minutes. I mean it's

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Speaker 1: forty five um header moving it like three and you're

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Speaker 1: swat at a time. Yeah, did mow lawn so fast?

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Speaker 1: It'd be quick. We can we cut six acres and

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Speaker 1: you know, just under a couple of hours. It was.

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Speaker 1: It was pretty amazing. When it's humming, we have three

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Speaker 1: machines going, three combines and the grain cart and uh,

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Speaker 1: we can just flat out knock it out. Is it

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Speaker 1: getting hauld to a silo or is it going right

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Speaker 1: to so much? We have two different things. You'll haul

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Speaker 1: to grain silos, yeah, commercial operations and or we'll ben

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Speaker 1: it and uh, they speculate on prices and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: We can weak stores for quite a while. So and uh,

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Speaker 1: it just depends on where it's going what it is

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Speaker 1: you said, I think we talked about it before it

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Speaker 1: You kind of do it for therapeutic reasons. Man. It

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Speaker 1: gets me out of the city. And uh, wait for

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Speaker 1: the eats the business away from the pizza business instead

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Speaker 1: of like yoga and surf camp. Some of these wheat

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Speaker 1: farmers might want to look into sell them like gold retreats. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they should go cut wheat week. It is very therapeutic.

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Speaker 1: I mean you spend it. It's it's I don't want

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Speaker 1: to sell it short. It's a grind. I mean we

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Speaker 1: cut from you know, you wake up at six and

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Speaker 1: your servicing machines by seven thirty and then you're generally

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Speaker 1: cutting by around nine. And he worked all day and

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Speaker 1: they the cool thing is dinner in the field. And

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Speaker 1: also you get these you know, the cooler shows up

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Speaker 1: and around you with your face up in that faced off.

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Speaker 1: That would not that kind of cool lunch cool lunch cooler.

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Speaker 1: Getting ship house might not go over too well. There's

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Speaker 1: really expensive gear, but uh, I don't know. Uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, dinner comes around and he cut until

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Speaker 1: dark and then generally the rule is once the you know,

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Speaker 1: these machines all have fantastic light arrage. You could work

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Speaker 1: all night if you wanted to, and uh, generally we

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Speaker 1: just fill up all the machines at once it gets

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Speaker 1: dark dark, that's when we're just like, all right, just

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Speaker 1: fill up the semis and then we tarp them off

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Speaker 1: overnight and uh that's generally the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: But you'll generally cut from nine am two generally around

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Speaker 1: ten thirty eleven pm. So it's it gets things start

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Speaker 1: moving kind of wavy after you know, twelve hours or so.

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Speaker 1: But you do, like later on you have to do

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Speaker 1: like a memoir about wheat coding. I love it, I

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Speaker 1: really do. And then you know, the scenery is pretty cool,

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Speaker 1: and I mean, uh, you know it's it's a climate controlled,

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Speaker 1: you know environment. You're sitting in air conditioning with the

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Speaker 1: air chair and you have XM radio and I download

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Speaker 1: you know, I've listened to forty podcasts and but it

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Speaker 1: still doesn't you know, we did. We cut for a

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty plus hours in ten days. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's definitely grind. You close your eyes when you

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Speaker 1: hit the sheets, you opened them and it's time to

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Speaker 1: go again. It's just like you don't even feel like

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Speaker 1: he had a break for real. So at the end

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Speaker 1: of the year, they just cut you big badass check

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Speaker 1: and you walk up. Well, we'll see about the badass part,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, I definitely get drive off in a brand

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Speaker 1: new truck. Gold Team. I wish, I wish. No, it's good.

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Speaker 1: They're super nice people and they've been you know, I

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Speaker 1: was a total greenhorn and it's like I'm the city

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Speaker 1: guy showing up playing farmer and so they're you know,

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Speaker 1: they're nice enough to a trust me and be I

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Speaker 1: take instruction. I can learn pretty much anything pretty quick,

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Speaker 1: and you know, they're like, hey, do this, do that,

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Speaker 1: and they literally just kind of threw two the wolves. Man.

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Speaker 1: They're like, all right, here you go. Don't wreck it

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Speaker 1: because it's really expensive, and then I take it from there.

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Speaker 1: It's great, it's been it's been really fantastic learning experience,

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Speaker 1: and I've met a lot of fantastic people and farmers

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Speaker 1: I think are some of the best people we got.

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Speaker 1: It's been. It's been fantastic. I really enjoy it. And

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Speaker 1: then Tuesday you head back cup more week. Tuesday I

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Speaker 1: go back. Yeah, I got my trucks after likes and

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Speaker 1: my trucks at the Great Falls Airport right now, just

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Speaker 1: gonna go and get right back after it. And I

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Speaker 1: think it's probably another ten days of two weeks, and

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Speaker 1: then we'll probably drinks some beer and eat mistakes when

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Speaker 1: it's all said and done. So it's been great. I

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Speaker 1: just like I said, I love it. Just the nicest

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Speaker 1: people and amazingly resilience and just something breaks. You don't

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Speaker 1: just you're sixty miles from anything, so it's not like

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Speaker 1: you can just I mean, guys know how to well thinking.

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Speaker 1: You know this guy that I work with, you know,

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Speaker 1: Josh and and his brother in law Brandon, they can

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Speaker 1: literally fix anything, like on the fly, Like this crazy

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Speaker 1: bracket broke on the combine I was driving, and this

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Speaker 1: guy Brandon, uh had a new one fabbed up installed

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Speaker 1: in like an hour and a half, Like just oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got that. They're just they're that kind of people.

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Speaker 1: And when stuff goes south. We had a big fire

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Speaker 1: um on the farm adjacent to ours, which is like

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Speaker 1: just a disaster, right. You know, you're watching your whole

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Speaker 1: year's work go up and smoke wheat fire and it's

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Speaker 1: degrees and there's a fifteen mile our wind. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is astonishing how fast or fire will move and

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Speaker 1: how dangerous it is. But like every wheat that's still standing,

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Speaker 1: still standing wheat, and there's actually some cut. There's this

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Speaker 1: lay down it's like swath. I'm not exactly sure the

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Speaker 1: technique for harvesting, but so basically it's just like it's

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Speaker 1: laid down in these long rows, just tinder dry, and

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Speaker 1: it's this massive amount of fuel for the fire. And uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean everybody drops everything from like a three mile

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Speaker 1: radius and everybody you have to have you know, we

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Speaker 1: have these big we drag a disc or behind a tractor,

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Speaker 1: and we have a fire rake set up with you know,

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Speaker 1: a massive container water with a pump like a legit

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Speaker 1: fire set up, and everybody just drops what they're doing

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Speaker 1: and it's like all hands on deck. Everybody shows up

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Speaker 1: and puts out their neighbor's fire. It's really, it's really

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Speaker 1: astonishing to see how everybody comes together. It's pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: That is nice. Yeah, that's solid that people are. They're

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Speaker 1: just good salt of the earth, just awesome folks. Year

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Speaker 1: no no, no, no. But here in Seattle, if a

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Speaker 1: if a competitor down the road, if another pizza guy

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Speaker 1: down the road's place burning down, like I'd lend a hand.

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Speaker 1: We're all in it together, like I like to think.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, our only guests Mike rule, Mike tell tell

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Speaker 1: everybody what what what? What? Your story is, what you

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Speaker 1: do for a living. So I'm the native Fish program

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Speaker 1: manager for the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish,

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Speaker 1: and people are thinking New Mexico has fish. They do

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Speaker 1: when I when I when I moved into that job,

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Speaker 1: I thought, man, this is probably gonna be easy. I

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Speaker 1: don't think there's really any water in New Mexico. But

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Speaker 1: it turns out that's not true. There's there's water and

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Speaker 1: quite a few places and a whole lot of data

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Speaker 1: fish that are are pretty unique to that part of

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Speaker 1: the world. But if you were to weigh up like tonnages, Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's say let's say you had a giant pile they

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Speaker 1: had all of the non native fish in New Mexico,

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Speaker 1: and the next to it was a giant pile with

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Speaker 1: all the native fish of New Mexico. Which pile is bigger? Wow,

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Speaker 1: this is a tough one. That is I probably probably

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Speaker 1: non native fish the bigger pile. Yeah, based based mostly

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Speaker 1: on on the reservoirs that we have. Yeah. Yeah, Why

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Speaker 1: why do reservoirs tend to suck so bad for native fish? Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's certainly not always true that there bad

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Speaker 1: for native fish, but but it's like, you know, it

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Speaker 1: just seems like everywhere you go, when you go to

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Speaker 1: a reservoir, oftentimes you're fishing fish that aren't from the area. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean, definitely a couple of things that play. One.

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Speaker 1: It's not it's not the historic habitat that's there. You know,

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Speaker 1: those native fish evolved in those in rivers mostly, and

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Speaker 1: then you put a dam on the river and you

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Speaker 1: create a lake, and so that's that's just not what

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Speaker 1: they're adapted to. And then, of course the other thing

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Speaker 1: is you know, the introduction of of non native fish,

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Speaker 1: both intentionally and accidentally over the years, and including you know,

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Speaker 1: non native fish that we that we like to fish

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Speaker 1: for yeah, because it's probably a big thing with you

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Speaker 1: deal with the non natives that that you want, and

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Speaker 1: there's the non natives you don't want. I think it's

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Speaker 1: like where I grew up in the Great Lakes, the

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Speaker 1: non natives you don't want are getting almost as numerous

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Speaker 1: as the non natives people did want. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I like all these like all the car gobies, right,

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Speaker 1: all these things to completely rewrite the landscape, the deleterious

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Speaker 1: non natives. At the same time, they're also trying to

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Speaker 1: like establish more and more the ones day, you know,

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Speaker 1: five species of four species of Pacific salmon in the

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Speaker 1: Great Lakes. That's a tremendous amount of money that goes

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Speaker 1: into putting those fish in there. Yeah, you know, i'd

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Speaker 1: I'd like to think anyway, we're mostly done in most

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Speaker 1: places trying to establish new populations and non native fish. Um.

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Speaker 1: But of course you're right, you know, salmon and other

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Speaker 1: fish to support him that got established in the Great

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Speaker 1: Lakes our thing. Um, you're saying that most like we

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Speaker 1: as a culture are mostly done trying to establish non

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Speaker 1: native fisheries. Yeah, I think, I mean, I think here

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Speaker 1: in the United States for sure, that's true. I don't

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Speaker 1: know about else in the world. I think for the

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Speaker 1: most part. I mean that doesn't mean that we don't

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Speaker 1: continue to support some non native fisheries. But but as

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Speaker 1: far as uh, you know, bringing in a lot of

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Speaker 1: new non native fish at least in the public waters, UM,

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Speaker 1: that's lower, that's lower priority. Yeah, you know, I'm not familiar,

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Speaker 1: certainly not in New Mexico with you know, with efforts

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Speaker 1: to do that. Yeah, to like get more walleye go

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Speaker 1: on or more whatever going. You know. I think we

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Speaker 1: want to talk about is UM. Like I think I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of a lot of people that hunt

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Speaker 1: fish don't realize is how wildlife management gets funded. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I'm gonna set this up real quick. Then you

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Speaker 1: after I get done set it up, you take you

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Speaker 1: go with or don't go with. You can you can

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Speaker 1: like say where I was wrong or right. But in so,

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Speaker 1: if you're gonna look at American history, UM, in a

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Speaker 1: in a wildlife perspective, we came in it must say

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Speaker 1: like euro American culture, European culture came to the US.

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Speaker 1: What's not the US, And we spent a couple of

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Speaker 1: hundred years almost systematically but not quite intentionally depopulating wildlife

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Speaker 1: in the country to the point where we got to

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Speaker 1: around the turn of the century, the early and we'd

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Speaker 1: kind of uh almost wiped out virtually everything. And then

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Speaker 1: at that time there was a big push to try

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Speaker 1: to find a way to recover game animals. And one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest things that happened that there's two stages

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Speaker 1: and recovering wild wildlife in America. There's like two stages

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Speaker 1: that happened to it. Well, let's for our perposonal stagre's

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Speaker 1: three stages. One of the stages was setting aside land

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Speaker 1: and habitat okay, and Theodore Roosevelt kind of ran point

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Speaker 1: on that idea is just like establishing landscapes where there

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Speaker 1: could where there you would have if they're where you're

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Speaker 1: creating land that if there were animals, that's where the

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Speaker 1: animals would be. Setting aside a habitat um. Another stage

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Speaker 1: in this was time to stop the bleeding, which was

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Speaker 1: basically a war against market hunters, so trying to de

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Speaker 1: incentivize or otherwise make illegal the raping and pillaging of

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Speaker 1: the land and water by people who were collecting animals

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Speaker 1: to sell be it for the feather trade, wild meat,

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Speaker 1: wild fish, so that was another step that we had

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Speaker 1: to take was to stop market hunters, and the third

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Speaker 1: step was to build stuff back up again. Eventually, the

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Speaker 1: question comes up, right, how are we gonna pay for

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Speaker 1: wildlife recovery in this country? And one of the first

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Speaker 1: things were kind of like one of the big things

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Speaker 1: that happened in wildlife recovery happened in nineties, right, and

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Speaker 1: it was originally called the Wildlife Restoration Act. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: they the two acts that you're going to talk about.

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Speaker 1: I think you know that we commonly refer to as

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Speaker 1: Pittman Robertson and Dingle Johnson are actually Pittman Robertson is

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Speaker 1: the Wildlife Restoration Act and Dingle Johnson is the Sport

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Speaker 1: Fish Restoration Act. We we often put those two things

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Speaker 1: together and call them the Wildlife and sport Fish Restoration Acts.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the US Fish and Wildlife Service has offices

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Speaker 1: that we shortn't even further and call them the whisper Offices,

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Speaker 1: UH short for Wildlife and sport Fish Restoration, and those

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Speaker 1: are the offices that administer those those federal excise taxes.

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Speaker 1: But the portion of that that became pitt and Robbers

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Speaker 1: and happened much earlier. That's a good question. You're you're

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Speaker 1: probably actually more familiar with the the intimate history of

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Speaker 1: the accident than i am. You know, my knowledge kind

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Speaker 1: of starts with they came into existence in nineteen thirty

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Speaker 1: seven and then have been amended various times. Look that

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Speaker 1: up beyond history, regardless of it as a gap. Let

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Speaker 1: me quickly they real quick layout, just the background on it.

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Speaker 1: So Franklin Roosevelt, he goes around like he had a

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Speaker 1: big conservation bent, like Theodore did. And Franklin Roosevelt goes

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Speaker 1: around and he in the thirties, he's going around and

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Speaker 1: this is like the you know, during the Great Depression.

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Speaker 1: He's going around explaining does this rod and gun clubs

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Speaker 1: around the country? People who are interested in in hunting

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Speaker 1: and fishing. He's going around and explaining to them, if

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Speaker 1: some if this is gonna happen, if we're going to

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Speaker 1: recover American wildlife, you guys are gonna have to do it.

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Speaker 1: And they come up with this idea that we're gonna

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Speaker 1: put an excise tax on guns and ammunition and hunting equipment,

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Speaker 1: to the tune of like Tenor and the sportsmen who

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Speaker 1: are going to be paying the tax. It's a very

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Speaker 1: targeted tax just on people to hunt, and there overwhelmingly

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Speaker 1: enthusiastic about it. The industry people, the people who are

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Speaker 1: producing guns and ammunition, who are gonna theoretically lose sales

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Speaker 1: due to the fact that their goods are not going

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Speaker 1: to be ten or eleven percent more expensive, are enthusiastic

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Speaker 1: supporters of this Wildlife Restoration Act idea. And the thing

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Speaker 1: goes from introduction to the president president's signature in ninety days.

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Speaker 1: Now the Affordable Care Act took over a year. To

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Speaker 1: give you a sense of like how quickly this thing

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Speaker 1: went through with overwhelming support, and it wound up that

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Speaker 1: they're just taking when when you buy guns enamel, you

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Speaker 1: get taxed on it. That tax we're in top about

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Speaker 1: how this works. That money is the money that went

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Speaker 1: into we're covering American wildlife. Yeah right, it's it's what's

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Speaker 1: called a user pay system, So you know, it's it's

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Speaker 1: in sports AND's best interests to have healthy wildlife and

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Speaker 1: fish populations in the landscape. And in order to to

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Speaker 1: foster that, the idea was that the users would help

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Speaker 1: to pay for it, meaning that it's gonna favor well,

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Speaker 1: we'll get into that, the criticism that it just favors

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Speaker 1: game animals. Yeah, and we can we can talk about

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Speaker 1: that at any point you want to. Um. The reality

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Speaker 1: is the the acts are a little bit different in

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Speaker 1: uh in how they specifically focused. I mean, yeah, let yeah,

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Speaker 1: let me let me clarify the one I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: became Pittman Robertson and follow following that or not what

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Speaker 1: you find out? Oh sorry, I didn't. You didn't clarify

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Speaker 1: the question, So I didn't. We're talking about you're supposed

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Speaker 1: to look up is Dingle john What year did Dingle

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Speaker 1: Johnson happened? Okay, Now, Dingle Johnson is a real strange name,

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Speaker 1: like Pittman Robertson. You know, you kind of like, right,

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Speaker 1: it's like an austerity to it, right, But Dingle Johnson

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Speaker 1: is just like, uh so I would have picked a

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Speaker 1: different name. Well, I think it's personally it's you know,

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Speaker 1: just like Pittman Robertson named after the two sponsors of

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Speaker 1: the bill. No, no, and God bless him. But I

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Speaker 1: just would have said, like, you know, considering that it's

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Speaker 1: Dingle and Johnson, we're gonna go. We're gonna go with

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Speaker 1: different names. I don't expect you to have it to

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Speaker 1: have a stated opinion on that, but can you lay

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Speaker 1: out what so like, take it from the perspective the

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Speaker 1: dude likes the hunting fish, what stuff is he buying

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Speaker 1: that is going into these funds? So specifically, what kinds

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Speaker 1: of products, like when you buy sporting goods, what exact

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Speaker 1: stuff are you buying that your pants? Such a humongous

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Speaker 1: tax that's that then goes into wildlife funding? Like what's

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Speaker 1: on the list? Yeah, so there's I mean, there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a huge list of things. It It really largely

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Speaker 1: comes down for for Pittman Robertson, A lot of it

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Speaker 1: is guns and ammunition. Um, it's archery equipment, reloading supplies.

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Speaker 1: I believe archery equipment is in there, yep. Um, some

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Speaker 1: gunsmith thing, I believe if gunsmiths are actually building guns, um,

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Speaker 1: muzzle loaders. So it's it's really, you know, most of

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Speaker 1: the common things that we think not and stuff. No,

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Speaker 1: that's getting more it's super specific. Yeah, that's right. And

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Speaker 1: then what is it in the fishing end of things? So, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, fishing is is pretty similar in that it's

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Speaker 1: it's the things that you would think of. It's it's

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Speaker 1: rods and reels and and lures. Um. So the very

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Speaker 1: specific stuff, right. The one that's pretty important to sport

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Speaker 1: fish that most folks don't know about is that that

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Speaker 1: there's an excise tax on boat fuel. So you have

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Speaker 1: a boat fuel is just I mean unlettered gas. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's correct, But it depends on where it's sold exactly.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not I'm not entirely sure how they calculate

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Speaker 1: what counts as boat fuel. You know, if there's some

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Speaker 1: small percentage of all the fuel that's sold that's considered

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Speaker 1: to be boat fuel, or if it's just what's sold

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Speaker 1: on marina docks for instance, or or close to reservoirs.

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Speaker 1: But but there's a substantial portion of of what comes

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Speaker 1: through the Sport Fish Restoration Act is is coming from

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Speaker 1: boat game. Yeah, I mean it's an important component. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the I know that the Pittman Robertson funds right now.

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Speaker 1: So again, right now, when you go out by guns, ammunition,

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Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff, reloading stuff, archery equipment is

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Speaker 1: loading stuff. You're paying a heavy as tacks on those

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Speaker 1: goods and right now, I think on average now it

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Speaker 1: raises about a billion dollars a year go into that fund. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think the I'm gonna gonna go into government speak

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Speaker 1: here the fiscal year, Um, I believe seven hundred and

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Speaker 1: eighty million dollars is the number that I got in

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Speaker 1: front of me coming through just through Pittan Robertson, just

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Speaker 1: through the Wildlife restaurant, from from one fiscal year. And

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Speaker 1: does that stay pretty steady every year? Um? You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't have the history in front of me. It

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Speaker 1: it went up. I think you know almost everybody knows

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Speaker 1: the story of of what happened during the Obama administration. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: go ahead, all right, So there's different ways to spin is.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to find a way that that rolls

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Speaker 1: into different spins on it. So okay, Um, now this

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Speaker 1: is me talking, not Mike ah Obama. People know it's

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Speaker 1: not like a the gun. The firearms industry did not

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Speaker 1: find a kindred spirit in Obama. And uh, there there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of fear throughout the eight years of

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Speaker 1: his pregnant as presidency that we would be having some

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Speaker 1: like draconian anti gun measures and acted and it prompted

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Speaker 1: a lot of people to go out and buy firearms

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Speaker 1: and buy AMMO for fear that their right to do

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Speaker 1: so might be infringed upon in the very near future,

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Speaker 1: and it caused a like a legit gun rush. I

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Speaker 1: think the handgun sales went up under his administration some people,

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Speaker 1: and so all that gun buying. Some people called him

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Speaker 1: um jokingly called you know, America's best gun salesman, and

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Speaker 1: other people talked about his conservation legacy because it blew

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Speaker 1: up Pittman Robertson funding. Because every time someone goes out

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Speaker 1: and buys a handgun for home defense, by the way

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Speaker 1: this law has written, ten or eleven percent of that

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Speaker 1: purchase price price goes into funding wildlife. So it was

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Speaker 1: like the good old days for eight years and then

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Speaker 1: gun purchases. With the the new administration coming in, gun

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Speaker 1: purchases plummeted almost instantaneously. So I think now there's some

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Speaker 1: austere times coming. Yeah, that's entirely possible. I mean we

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Speaker 1: haven't it'll be it'll be fiscal year eighteen when when

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Speaker 1: when we see those new numbers. But whether yeah, because

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Speaker 1: the real big drive around that is guns and ammunition.

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Speaker 1: I mean as far as like the percentages go. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: because because because Obama fuelled such a gun buy and

404
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Speaker 1: frenzy he fueled like some major conservation spending. I even

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Speaker 1: saw her one magazine, like a very pro Obama magazine

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Speaker 1: had it be like um as sort of building in

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Speaker 1: it as part of his concert, like I said, his

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Speaker 1: conservation legacy, even though it's completely like the Department of

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Speaker 1: Unintended Consequences, right, it was like not the goal. And

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Speaker 1: if that was the goal, and you are that shrewd

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Speaker 1: of a poker player, I have to like hand it

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Speaker 1: to you. If you're like, well, how could I get

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Speaker 1: more money to fund wildlife? I don't all do. I'll

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Speaker 1: act like I'm gonna get rid of guns, but not really,

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Speaker 1: that's shrewd. No one plays that kind of poker. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got no. I mean I wouldn't think so. I

417
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Speaker 1: would just say that it's been a good thing for

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Speaker 1: for conservation funding. Okay, so there's seven hund eighty million.

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Speaker 1: Now how much comes up from the taxes on fishing gear?

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Speaker 1: You got that? Yeah, so it's it's about three and

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Speaker 1: fifty millions. Yeah, but there's twice as many fishermen. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, because they like fishermen are like uh, I

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Speaker 1: was sending his conversation your day, Um, twice as many

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Speaker 1: people buy fishing licenses, but they're not they're not as obsessive. Right,

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00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: There's there's more weekend folks that that don't don't fish

426
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: year around, like you know, like people who are real

427
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 1: dedicated with hunting. Yeah, like when you talk when you

428
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: talk about hunting and fishing, like hunter numbers in American

429
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: fisher numbers in America. While they're looking at is uh,

430
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: they're just looking at who bought a license? What happens

431
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: after the guy buys a license? You have no idea,

432
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 1: so you kind of and be like, I can't remember

433
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: what it is. Just thirty million, I don't know. Some

434
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: years I think like around thirty million Americans buy a

435
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: fishing license, but they could be buying three day licenses

436
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: in order to go out, you know, one time. So

437
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 1: they're like twice as many fishermen are only paying half

438
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: as much excise taxes on stuff. Yeah, fishing rounds like

439
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,719
Speaker 1: a hundred bucks, on our rifles a thousand bucks. Right,

440
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: So maybe it's just a question of price. Could be

441
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 1: maybe so there so that money, Um, so we got

442
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: like what you're buying, it pays the stuff. This is

443
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: something everybody has to do where does that, like, what's

444
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: the path that money takes in order to then go

445
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 1: into like actual fish and wildlife spending. Yeah, so, um,

446
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: I guess you know. One thing to note there is

447
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: is that that the the excise tax is in the

448
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 1: price that you see, you know, Yeah, you don't get

449
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: like an itemized bill that shows that part of it. Yeah.

450
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: If you walk up to the counter and they charge

451
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: a tax, that's not the tax that we're talking about.

452
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: It's already built into the price of the item. Um.

453
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: So that money essentially goes into uh pot of money

454
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: that is administered by the US Fish and Wildlife Service.

455
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: And then from there did the pots get blended to

456
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: the pots stay separate. They stay separate. The hunting pot

457
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: and the fishing pot go to US Fish and Wildlife Service,

458
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: but they stay hunting fishing. That's correct. Yeah, I mean

459
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: there you know, there are different there are different rules

460
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: for both pots of money, um in terms of how

461
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 1: things get old out to the states and and territories

462
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: and the District of Columbia. Um. So they stay separate.

463
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: And then ah, essentially what happens is the Fish and

464
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: Wildlife Service runs their formula for how much each state

465
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: is going to get from each program every years that

466
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: I want to talk about that. But what'd you find out?

467
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: Do you find it out? Dingle Johnson? So quite like

468
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: some idy here twelve years thirteen years later, here's nothing

469
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: to look up. Do you remember when a guy told

470
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 1: us how much uh, Federal and Savage when they have

471
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: to cut their check, they're Pittman Robertson check. Uh, there's

472
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 1: a ridiculous amount of money. Yeah. I don't know if

473
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: I was there for that conversation, though you were on

474
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: the email. I'll find it. Um. Okay, Yeah, some guy

475
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: was telling us, like what a company like that Federal Ammunition,

476
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: how many how much animal they sell? It's gotta be

477
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 1: a lot. Oh yeah, at the end of the year,

478
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: you're right, and check for tens and tens of millions

479
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: of dollars. Just think about how much Federal is shoot

480
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 1: every year? All right? So so how do the what

481
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: is the goal? Like, how do you how do you

482
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: calculate that out? Like what are they looking at to say, like, okay,

483
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 1: here's what states get? What is it? How many dudes

484
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: hunting fish there? Yeah, that's part of it. Um, Like

485
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: I said, they're they're a little bit different at at

486
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: their heart, they are both about two things. One is

487
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: land area, so how big the state is, and the

488
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: other is how many license buyers there are. Um, you know,

489
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: there there's a little bit of complexity and nuance, and

490
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: we could we could spend a week talking about that.

491
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: But for Wildlife Restoration Act, um, it's fifty percent land

492
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: area and it's fifty number of paid licensed hunters. Now,

493
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: so who are the big winners there? Well, I you know,

494
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: I got to imagine I could, I could look at

495
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: the list, but you know, I have to imagine a

496
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: state like Texas, which has a huge land area and

497
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: a huge number of hunters, would would really come out high.

498
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: But there is an additional rule in there, which is

499
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: that no state can receive more than five percent of

500
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: the total or less than one Oh, I got you.

501
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: So it keeps it from from, you know, having one

502
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: state really dominate. I grew up in Pennsylvania. That Pennsylvania

503
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: would probably be another one that if if you base

504
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: anything off the number of of licensed hunters in the state,

505
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: you know, would would really get a big share. Oh yeah,

506
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: because they are Pennsylvania often vised for like the hunting

507
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: the state. Yeah, I have per capital, but just total

508
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: numbers of licenses, right, you always hear like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Texas. Yeah,

509
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: they they used to say when when I was a kid,

510
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: you know, they said there were a million people in

511
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: the woods on the first day of rifle deer season

512
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: every year. So I had I had looked it up recently. Um,

513
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: I believe in the last couple of years they fell

514
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: below a million licenses sold. But but that million number

515
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: is a threshold that that not many places. I think Texas.

516
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: I think for a couple of years ago, five to

517
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: ten years ago, maybe Pennsylvania was was number one right there,

518
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: and now it's fallen behind to Texas, a long behind Texas.

519
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: So did you say, again, just to back up, did

520
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: you say it winds up being how many people buy

521
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: a hunting license, how many people live in the state. No,

522
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: it's how many people buy a license. It is number

523
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: of paid licensed hunters. So it's land area, fift land

524
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: area and fifty number of licensed hunters. So then they

525
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: take the big giant pool of money the US Fish

526
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: and Wildlife Service does or there three quarters of a

527
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: billion dollars million whatever? Does they take that and then

528
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: they run their calculation and they wind up saying, let's

529
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: use New Mexico. They wind up saying, Okay, here's New

530
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: Mexico's chunk, and what is New Mexico's chunk? This is

531
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: all public information? Oh yeah, yeah you can. Uh. I

532
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: mean if you if you do a web search for sport,

533
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: fish and Wildlife Restoration Acts, you'll you'll end up at

534
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: at the Fish and Wildlife Service UM website and and

535
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,959
Speaker 1: all of this is is readily available. Yea. So New

536
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: Mexico UM, make sure I'm on the right line in

537
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: the table here. It looks like fifteen million dollars fifteen

538
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: and a half million dollars in fiscal year seventeen four

539
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: from the Wildlife Restoration Act, So from Pittman Robertson and

540
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: and what for them fishing, I think it's about it's

541
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: six six point one, so twenty one and a half

542
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: million combined. And so the FEDS then they don't just

543
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: like turn around and write you at check for twenty

544
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: one and a half million and say go for it. Yeah.

545
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: And so this this was really one of the things

546
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: that I wanted to talk about. You know, we talked

547
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: a little bit about the history of the Act and

548
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: and like I mentioned, I'm you know, I'm not the

549
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: greatest student of that history. I'm I come at this

550
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: more from a pragmatic standpoint of of how we do

551
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: this and how the money really works and how it

552
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: flows and where it goes, and so what happens is

553
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: the state's right grants. I mean, we know how much

554
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: money is is going to be granted to us or

555
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: how much money is available for those grants. But we

556
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: write grants too. But you know, like, but you know

557
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: you're gonna get it. We know, we know we're gonna

558
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: get it. I mean, the Fishing Wildlife Service, you know,

559
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: reviews the grants to ensure that the projects meet the

560
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: rules that the acts put in place. You know, so

561
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: there's a process step there that has to be done.

562
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: But we, you know, we still have to write the

563
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: grants and then we report to the US Fish and

564
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: Wildlife Service at the end on what we did with

565
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: the money. Um. But you know, one of the real

566
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: interesting nuances of how this works is that both programs,

567
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: as well as some other federal grant programs, are reimbursement programs.

568
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: So the state, while while we do write a grant

569
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: and the Fish and Wildlife Service does come back hopefully

570
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: and say yes, you know, go ahead, you can spend

571
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: money on that. The state spends the money first, and

572
00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: then once we've spent it, we apply for reimbursements. But

573
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: where do you get in the first place. So almost

574
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: all of that money, in especially in a state like

575
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: New Mexico, comes from the sale of hunting and fishing licenses,

576
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,479
Speaker 1: So the license buyer pays for the projects up front

577
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: and then gets reimbursed for a portion of the money

578
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: that has already been spent. Can you real quick name, like,

579
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 1: can you put give people sense of what these projects are? Well,

580
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: I mean that's it's tough because they're they're really broad

581
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: in in uh scope and scale. UM. We use the

582
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: money to do all kinds of things. Habitat restoration is

583
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: is one thing, um, you know, both for for fish

584
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: and wildlife. UM. You know, we do surveys, We monitor

585
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: populations of fish and wildlife statewide. UM. On the fishery

586
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,479
Speaker 1: side of things, we do things like operate our state

587
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: fish hatcheries using this money. UH. Specifically in the program

588
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: that I work in, we do. We we work with

589
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: our native fish are particularly our native trout, both helo

590
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: trout and real ground the cutler trout are considered sport fish.

591
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: So even though helo trouts listed as threatened under the

592
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: Endangered Species Act, we're still able to use Dingle Johnson

593
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 1: money to work on it. So it is to do

594
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: research and habitat improvement, try to recover the fish. Yeah,

595
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 1: and so to a large degree, it covers most of

596
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 1: the breadth of the biology stuff that the agency does.

597
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 1: And so you know, I do wanna. I don't want

598
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: to move on before I mentioned one thing, which is

599
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: that most states work like New Mexico, where almost all

600
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: of our revenue comes through license sales. They're are not

601
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: like You're like, you're not getting money just from the

602
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: general taxpayer in New Mexico. That's right, and and most

603
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: states work that way. There there are exceptions. I believe

604
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: Missouri and Arkansas are two exceptions that that while of

605
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: course they still get money through license sales, they also

606
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 1: get other money's tax sales, tax revenue or general fund moneies.

607
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: But most states um are like us. And you know,

608
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: we we say that we're an enterprise agency, which essentially

609
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: means that we generate our own revenue. Yeah. I had

610
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,919
Speaker 1: read somewhere that so the country has fifties state fish

611
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: and game agencies obviously, and I read somewhere that their

612
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: budgets so all of the work that goes into wildlife

613
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: at a state level, which basically all states. Every state

614
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: manages virtually all the wildlife in their state. Was some

615
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,959
Speaker 1: exceptions when you get into like things that are listed

616
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 1: as in dangered species, but states manage their own wildlife

617
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 1: and across the boarding, all states just all the money

618
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: they use for wildlife, game and non games. So just

619
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: like all wildlife in the state is paid for sixty

620
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: six depending on which state, is paid for by people

621
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: buying hunting and fishing licenses or by people paying taxes

622
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: on hunting and fishing gear. Like the hunters and anglers

623
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: foot the whole thing. Virtually, the hunters and anglers through

624
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: buying licenses certainly foot a big proportion of it. You know,

625
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: I don't I don't have an agency wide number like that.

626
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: I mean, there there are things that you can pay

627
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: for using Sport, Fish and Wildlife Restoration Act moneies. We

628
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 1: call those reimbursable expenses, and other things that you can't.

629
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: So you can't reimburse for law enforcement expenses, and obviously

630
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: that's a substantial component of a lot of you know,

631
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: agencies do um, so actually paying the game wardens. You

632
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: can't use federal funds for that, right, that's correct. That's

633
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: got to come out of your license sales. It does.

634
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: And so one of the other things that the acts

635
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: prohibit are really anything that generates revenue. So we can't

636
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: use the money to sell licenses. So the staff and

637
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: the infrastructure and everything else that's actually selling licenses not

638
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: reimbursable expenses. And I want to I want to get

639
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: back to the to just to to the to the

640
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: part you're talking about where you're doing paying out a

641
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: pocket and then applying for grants. But just real quick,

642
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 1: a thing, a problem that used to happen that this

643
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: is correct, it is. It used to be that states

644
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: would some states would the state Fish and Game agency

645
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 1: would make money. They would raise funds by selling hunting

646
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: and fishing licenses, but then the states would pilfer those accounts.

647
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 1: And if you if a state removes hunting fishing license

648
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: revenue from its state Fishing Game agency, doesn't the state

649
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: then become ineligible for the federal money. Like there's rules

650
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: that come with the federal money. There there are and

651
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, we call it the anti diversion

652
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: portion of the bill. So, um, the Acts basically say

653
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: what you just said, which is that if a state

654
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 1: is to be eligible to receive the money, they cannot

655
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: transfer that license sale money outside of the agency to

656
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 1: do other unrelated things. So they can't divert the money

657
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: for other purposes. They can't take it and put it,

658
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: you know, in their general fund to be spent on

659
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 1: roads or something. Yeah. So your so your licen's money

660
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: stays on mission, right, which is really I mean, that

661
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: was a absolutely brilliant thing to build into the Acts.

662
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: That's what I was just thinking. It's like, man, they

663
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: really like nailed the like the game plan this one. Yeah.

664
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: And then Greg blast it's his favorite part of it

665
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 1: is is if the money doesn't get used in two years,

666
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 1: it just gets rolled into migratory birds. I think, Yeah,

667
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: he likes that little final button on it. Yeah. I

668
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: actually just listen to that episode again, and you know,

669
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: I was I was thinking about that when this morning.

670
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: Actually that that if if folks wanted to, that would

671
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: be a great one to to listen to before this

672
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: to kind of, you know, start thinking about why that

673
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: revenue is important, you know, before you sort of get

674
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: into the mechanics of how it all works. So how

675
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: crippling is it that you guys got to pay up

676
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: front and then get reimbursed later. Well, why can't it

677
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: this give you the money up front? Well, you know,

678
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: I don't like, how do they expect you have the money?

679
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: I think that agencies, I mean, I think this has

680
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: been going on. I don't know the early history with agencies,

681
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:54,919
Speaker 1: but I think this has been going on so long

682
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 1: at this point that agencies are you know, have just

683
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: learned to plan for this um as it as it

684
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: currently stands. Uh, you know, I think New Mexico Department

685
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: of Game and Fishes is doing just fine with that.

686
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: But just like moving the money around, Yeah, yeah, like

687
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: taking money that everything would go for doing a project

688
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: where it you're gonna get it back later and you

689
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: can use when you get it back, you can use

690
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 1: it for things that the federal funds aren't eligible for. Yeah,

691
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not I'm not a hundred percent sure

692
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 1: that that, but that that's a exactly right that it's

693
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily that we wait to get it back

694
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: and then use it for things that it's not eligible for.

695
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: I think it just all comes back into you know,

696
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: our our big fund when it comes back. So while't

697
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: me through the process of like I like, how while

698
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: me through the like follow a dollar? Right, So there's

699
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: a dollar in this pool? How does it come to

700
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 1: that dollar winds up going to to to Fish and

701
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: Wildlife in a case scenario like something you've been involve

702
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: So once it gets to the agency, Yeah, like I'm saying, like, like, like,

703
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 1: walk me through the process of a state identifying something

704
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: they'd like to do. Right. So so we say, hey,

705
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: we have a real grande Cutler trout project that we

706
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 1: want to work on. Um, here's what it is. We

707
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: right up to grant, We send the grant to Fish

708
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: and Wildlife Service. They come back and say, okay, you're approved,

709
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: and um how long does that take? You know? It depends, Um,

710
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: usually a couple of months. I Mean, there's there's kind

711
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 1: of grand cycles that are that are tied with these

712
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 1: things that you know, most most folks understand what they

713
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: are and and when things need to be turned into

714
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: to fit in the both the state and the federal

715
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: fiscal year. Um. So they they usually turn them around

716
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: pretty fast. Uh. And so then Once we get approval,

717
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: you know, there's grant code set up, and uh, if

718
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: you go work on that Rio Grande cut or trout

719
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: restoration project, UM, you come back and you report that

720
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: time that you worked or if you buy stuff for

721
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: the project or whatever it is, UM, you report it

722
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 1: that way. And then we have a federal aid office.

723
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: So New Mexico Department of Game and Fish employees who

724
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: who work on this stuff full time financial specialists. UM,

725
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,800
Speaker 1: they gather all that information up. They send it to

726
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: the Fishing Wildlife Service, you know, to document that the

727
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: agency spent the money, and then the Fishing Wildlife Service

728
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: sends back the reimbursement portion UM, which for both sport

729
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 1: fishing wildlife is is sev. So we get reimbursed. They

730
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: don't pay. Now we get reimbursed for seventy excuse me,

731
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 1: sevent the cost? Is it competitive or the like? Does

732
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,720
Speaker 1: this Is there some bigger hand at the state level

733
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: that says like, okay, we have fifteen million dollars to

734
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: work with here, let's figure out how we're going to

735
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 1: spread this around. Are you competing? Are your grants competing

736
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: against other people within the state in that sense? Um,

737
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: it's it's all, it's all within our agency. So you know,

738
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 1: you could you could view it as there is some

739
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: competition in that way where you know, upper level management,

740
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: like the chiefs from Fisheries and Wildlife and the other divisions,

741
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: you know, would would talk about the projects that that

742
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: are on the docket and how they're gonna spend that money. Now,

743
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: of course, because the acts are separate, because ones for

744
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: sport fish and ones for wildlife. Generally, the Wildlife division

745
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: is gonna decide how to spend their portion of it,

746
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: and they do that in consultation with with you know,

747
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: our our administration are director. Um. So, so by that,

748
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 1: I mean like, let's say, you know, there's fifteen million available.

749
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: They're not sending over twenty million grant requests to official

750
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: wildlife there, They're sending over fifteen million grants. We work

751
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: that out internally. Yeah, that's okay, that's all right. So

752
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: you're never like fighting against the guy down the hall,

753
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: all right now if you got to go make your

754
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: case right at the for the state level. Yes, that's correct. Yeah.

755
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,399
Speaker 1: So what was the next part of that? Now, because

756
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 1: I interrupted you about that, I don't know where we

757
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: were reimbursed. Oh yeah, why like, how's that come up?

758
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: They're just like, won't do one? Well, I mean I

759
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 1: think that that the idea is that the state is

760
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: vested in its own projects, you know. I mean we

761
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: ultimately are still I mean, we're accountable right up front

762
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: and spending the money. But you know, I think it's

763
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,919
Speaker 1: also right. It's also a mechanism, you know, by which

764
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: we own a portion of of what's been spent. And

765
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: you know, we have a lot of pride in the

766
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: projects that that we do. So what is it with

767
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: I noticed when you're talking about this, you're saying wildlife,

768
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 1: but then sport fish. So Pittman Rock again, like it

769
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,359
Speaker 1: just in lingo, just for the listener and lingo we've

770
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: come to talk about. The Wildlife Restoration Act is known

771
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: Pittman Robertsons. That's like two people that whose name replied

772
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: to the bill, Like two people pushed for the bill.

773
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: That's game and non game animals. Yeah, so wildlife is

774
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 1: defined by the Act as birds and mammals. So why

775
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: is the fishing one sport fish? That's a good question.

776
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: I mean, um, so if there's like a chub that

777
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: people don't regard, a native chub that people don't regard

778
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: as a sport fish. You can't use that money on it.

779
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: It has to be a sport fish. Yeah, that's right.

780
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: And so they're that seems kind of like, um, it

781
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: seems like, uh, not quite cynical, but it seems like

782
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: a little bit where you're you're opening yourself up for um,

783
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: some pretty heavy criticism. Well, you know, they're I mean,

784
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 1: there's even there. There's a couple of nuances. One is

785
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: that that the state has some role in defining a

786
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: sport fish. So you know, there are places where a

787
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 1: roundtail chub are considered sport fish. Not in New Mexico,

788
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: but but there are places, Um, I believe, I believe Arizona. Um.

789
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 1: The other thing is when when we go out and

790
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 1: do work for sport fish, and some sport fish are native.

791
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: You know, I mentioned, I mentioned the two trout species

792
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: and and actually you know down in in southeast New

793
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: Mexico there's there's a lot of native fish. There's large

794
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: about bass and other things down there. Um. But when

795
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 1: we go out and do surveys, even if they're sport

796
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: fish surveys, we're almost always learning something about the fish

797
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: community as a whole. So even though the work may

798
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 1: be focused on sport fish, there are ancillary benefits to

799
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: other native fish, non game fish. And then it's not

800
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: totally discriminatory against non game No, not totally. But and

801
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: I would think if you're studying habitat, then you know,

802
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: whatever you learn habitat, it's gonna be beneficial to all exactly.

803
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,479
Speaker 1: Or or doing habitat improvement projects are you know, often

804
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: good for everything. And and so a big chunk of

805
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 1: what what happens with my team and my program is

806
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 1: is is done through other federal aid grant programs that

807
00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: are similar, have similar mechanics, uh, but different sources of

808
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,879
Speaker 1: of funding give me for instance, so there's really two

809
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 1: programs that we use all the time. UM. There is

810
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,720
Speaker 1: some funding that comes through the Fish and Wildlife Service

811
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: to work on endangered species Endangered Species Section six funding UM.

812
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 1: And so you know, one of the hot button issues

813
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 1: that we're working on right now. We also in my

814
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: program work on aquatic invertebrates. UM, we're working with a

815
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: native muscle called the Texas hornshell. There's a lot of

816
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: uh things swirling around right now with listing for that animal,

817
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: like did it'll getting threatened or endanger Yeah, it's actually

818
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,399
Speaker 1: they're about to publish the final rule, and so we've

819
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: been we've been working on on one, getting the best

820
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: understanding that we can of what's going on with it.

821
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: We've also been trying out some some new conservation approaches

822
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: to try to repatriate it to some his or habitat

823
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: UH places where it's not currently found. And then we've

824
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: also been working with the Fish and Wildlife Service and

825
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 1: and UH private landowner and and business folks to UH

826
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 1: to work on what's called a candidate conservation agreement with

827
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 1: assurances UM. It's essentially a conservation agreement that folks can

828
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 1: enter into before an animal gets listed, so that to

829
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: try to head off getting listed. Well, it's not it's

830
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: not that particular agreements not necessarily so much about the

831
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: animal not getting listed as it is about laying out

832
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: what will happen if it does. So that muscle lives

833
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 1: in the Permian Basin, and if you google search the

834
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: Permian Basin, the thing that you'll see pop up is

835
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: probably about oil and gas development. And so you know,

836
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: those businesses are interested in understanding what will happen and

837
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,959
Speaker 1: and and so through this process they get assurances about

838
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 1: what's going to happen if the animal gets listed, and

839
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 1: they probably get real interested in having it not get listed.

840
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 1: Well you know what I mean, Like as far as

841
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: like supporting the paying for biology, Yeah, well they I

842
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: mean through through this program they support conservation by paying

843
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 1: into a fund to to ultimately help recover the animal

844
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: if it gets listed, or continued to work on it

845
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 1: as it goes through the process. What what it tell

846
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 1: me about the animal? The one you're talking about right now,

847
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: Texas hornshell. Um, you know, it's a it's a it's

848
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: I believe it's the only remaining freshwater muscle in New Mexico.

849
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: It it lives in the Black River, which is a

850
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 1: tributary to the to the Pacos River in southeastern New Mexico. Uh,

851
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 1: it's got an interesting life history and that it it

852
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 1: lives up under these mud banks that overhang the river

853
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: and under rock ledges and stuff. So, um, it's actually

854
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: kind of fun to go a sample for it, jump

855
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,320
Speaker 1: in the river and and swim around the banks and

856
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 1: and feel up under the banks trying to trying to

857
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,359
Speaker 1: find a thing. And how big are they they get

858
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: up to I don't know, I'd i'd say maybe five

859
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: inches long way across the shell. It looks like a

860
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: like a kind of mossy getting a restaurant. It looks

861
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: kind of like that. I mean, it's you know, it's

862
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: a bi valve muscle, you know, similar to what folks

863
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: would be familiar with their and why are they suffering?

864
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,760
Speaker 1: Are the intolerant of pollution? Um? You know, water quality

865
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: is an issue, and of course water quantity is an

866
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:38,399
Speaker 1: issue as well. So drawing water off lowers water levels

867
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 1: and that screws them. Yeah. If if water levels dropped

868
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: below where they where they live up under the banks,

869
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: they don't they don't fare so well. So let's say

870
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 1: you identify um, I mean you specifically, but kind of

871
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: like addresses as you as in just people that work

872
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: at State Fish and Game a state fishing game agencies

873
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: you identify. I think let's say, with with this muscle,

874
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 1: you're like, man, if I had you know, a couple

875
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars, I could there's this idea, how to

876
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 1: really should try it? What is it like when you

877
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 1: go and present? How competitive is it when you go

878
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: within agency to present your plan? Like do you have

879
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: to have your ship dialed in when you're going to

880
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: present your idea because it's a competitive environment. It's more

881
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: of a negotiation, I would say, than a competition. We

882
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: we talk about all the priorities that the agency may

883
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: have for using that funding, and you know, I mean

884
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: I would know we're we're really we're talking about when

885
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 1: we talk about Sport Fish Restoration Act money, you know,

886
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 1: millions of dollars. It's bounced up and down a little bit.

887
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 1: But the E s A Section six funding is has

888
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 1: been around two hundred thousand dollars in federal money a year,

889
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 1: so much smaller pot of money. UM. And the other

890
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: program that I wanted to mention is the state Wildlife

891
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: Grant program. UH. If you look, most states have what's

892
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: called the State Wildlife Action Plan, which is a plan

893
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: that they developed in concert with the Fish and Wildlife

894
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 1: Service UM and that's tied to another grant program that

895
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 1: that is more UM. I I believe it's currently in

896
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: the like eight hundred thousand dollar a year neighborhood, so

897
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:41,439
Speaker 1: four non game fish and invertebrates. Those are too pots

898
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: of money that we drawn what funds those were, like,

899
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 1: where does that money come from? There? There money from

900
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 1: Congress tax revenue money such a general pool money. Yeah,

901
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 1: so when you have an idea, you're not in there

902
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 1: like fighting the guy down the aisle. No, I'm obsessed

903
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: with this idea, Like I just just got you a

904
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 1: lot of people that want the money. There, I mean there,

905
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: there is there, you know to some degree, there's there's

906
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: longstanding programs that money goes to, like some guys kissed

907
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: because he's got some glamorous thing that draws in all

908
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 1: the money. That doesn't happen. Well, I mean like oh,

909
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,760
Speaker 1: those sheep, those desert big horn sheep guys sure gobble

910
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: up a lot of money, but see those those folks

911
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: can use Pittman robertson money, so they're not you know,

912
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 1: and these more limited people. Is it that those trout

913
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: guys gobble up a lot of money? Well, I mean

914
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 1: again that that would be that would be DJ money eligible.

915
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 1: So it's it's really a smaller group of folks in

916
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:50,280
Speaker 1: the agency that work on things that are not reimbursable

917
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: um against PR and DJ money and and I guess

918
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: I've honestly never thought much about this. Maybe it's in

919
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 1: partment because my team gets a lot of that a

920
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: lot of that funding, you know, on the wildlife side, UM,

921
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 1: the herpetology stuff, reptiles and amphibians, you know, they they

922
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 1: use that money as well. And then you know, with

923
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: so particularly for that's particularly true for the ESA funding.

924
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: For the State Wildlife Grand funding, we have another division

925
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 1: called UH Ecological and Environmental Planning UM, and that division

926
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: also works with a lot of State Wildlife Grand money.

927
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 1: But you know, I feel like those lines are relatively

928
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: clearly drawn and and you know, there is conversation and

929
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: negotiation every year about how that money is going to

930
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 1: be spent, but it's you know, it's not it's not gladiatorial. Yeah.

931
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 1: So do you feel like you're well funded all in all?

932
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 1: I do. Yeah. So here's a government guy and it's

933
00:56:58,120 --> 00:56:59,839
Speaker 1: not going to complain to me about he doesn't get

934
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:02,879
Speaker 1: an of money. No. I you know what, you're able

935
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 1: to do what you need to do. I think that

936
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:10,279
Speaker 1: that we currently absolutely have as many projects going UM,

937
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,360
Speaker 1: as many fully funded projects going as as we could do.

938
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: You know, if if we had more folks in the program,

939
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 1: we could take on more stuff. But but right now

940
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: we're we're very busy doing a number of projects across

941
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: the state. Jimmy Dornany got any questions up to this point. None,

942
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 1: just everything's been What's the part you thought was the

943
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: most interesting? Um, basically the breakdown between the amount of

944
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: money that's gleaned off of sales of firearms. I mean,

945
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 1: I was just had kind of a not a really

946
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 1: strong knowledge of background. I just I'm just amazed that

947
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: there's that kind of revenue, seven hundred fifty million. I

948
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 1: was wondering if they put it. I was going to

949
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 1: ask if money gets put away, if it's not all spent.

950
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: He said, it's got to be spent on mission, got

951
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 1: to be spent instead of having a nice big chest

952
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 1: somewhere where we got it. Uh, well, that's good. It

953
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: seems like it's going to get use And I like

954
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 1: the idea of our fund and our own deal. You know,

955
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: we can't say how do I say it equently? Um,

956
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: you know we're paying for what we're getting. You know

957
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: that that strikes home. That's good. But that so, but

958
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: that becomes controversial to some people because here's the like,

959
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 1: here's a criticism that you here floated around, Mike, you

960
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 1: might speak to this or not. Um. The criticism being

961
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 1: that they'll even you like like a fish and game agency.

962
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: What you'll hear their language of like our customers. Okay,

963
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:42,919
Speaker 1: so someone who just let's say, you have a person

964
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 1: doesn't hunting fish and they live in a state and

965
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 1: they enjoy wildlife. There is some resentment in some with

966
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 1: some people that the agency that's responsible for managing and

967
00:58:55,800 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 1: handling all wildlife in that state views it as though

968
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 1: they're doing it to service a customer base who's actually

969
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 1: paying for it. Now, I would argue that makes sense

970
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: to me. These are the people who are funding it,

971
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 1: so they should have a bigger say or have their

972
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 1: interests served as a higher priority than people who aren't

973
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: funding it. But some people feel like a state shouldn't

974
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: be in that situation. They shouldn't be looking at If

975
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: your job is to manage wildlife, you shouldn't be doing

976
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: it through the lens of servicing your customers, meaning of

977
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 1: emphasizing or paying special attention to the things that they

978
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: like to go out and shoot and catch. That they

979
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 1: would point to, there's inordinance spending on elk, turkeys, trout,

980
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 1: wal eyes, and a lack of attention and a lack

981
00:59:55,080 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 1: of funding and a lack of management brought to horn

982
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: knows chubbed muscles right because the customers don't care or

983
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 1: don't care as much. I like that it's broad that

984
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 1: it's not just specific the stuff that we hunt, but

985
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 1: it's also the money is just distributed all around. But

986
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 1: they but but it's not like like a lot of

987
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 1: attention is paid to the things that the customers are

988
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 1: interested in. Mm hmm, I'm putting Devil's advocate. I'm just

989
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 1: saying that that makes people uneasy when they view it.

990
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 1: Being their customers, it would be like, okay, they'd be

991
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 1: like this. Imagine the governor state. You would never say, well,

992
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: you know, rich people pay a lot more taxes. I'm

993
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 1: more interested in doing the kind of stuff that helps

994
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 1: rich people out. Now, that would not fly well as

995
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 1: a campaign rally, No, it would not. But fishing game agencies,

996
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: some people feel that efficient game agency's basically saying that

997
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 1: by managing wildlife, Mike, you care to speak to this well,

998
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, not your own opinion, but just

999
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 1: like would you care to add any flavor texture? Well? No,

1000
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I I think I think that

1001
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 1: to some degree that's a misinterpretation what we do. And

1002
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 1: you know, me being the guy complaining like I'm not

1003
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: doing like you take you don't agree with that complaint,

1004
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 1: that that that that that's not a valid complaint. I think,

1005
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 1: you know, I think I understand where folks are coming

1006
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: from when when they they believe that what we do

1007
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 1: is manage sport fish and wildlife, um, you know, and

1008
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 1: that we just do that for a customer, and and

1009
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 1: all that we're doing is trying to increase populations of

1010
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 1: things that you can hunt and fish for. I empathize

1011
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 1: with that, you know, I think I can see why

1012
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 1: people might see that, but I think that the reality

1013
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: is a lot different, and you know that. I mean,

1014
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 1: that's really why I wanted to come on today, was,

1015
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 1: you know, to to talk about, you know, how it

1016
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 1: is that we pay for conservation and and why why

1017
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 1: we manage non game fishing wildlife. Can you answer that?

1018
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 1: Can you just answer that in a sentence? Why is

1019
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 1: it a mandate? Well, I don't. I don't know that

1020
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 1: I can answer in a sentence. Um. I think there's

1021
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 1: you know, there's a big long bunch of sentences together.

1022
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 1: So there's about half a dozen reasons why we do it.

1023
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 1: I mean one, New Mexico, like most states, you know,

1024
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 1: has in law in statute that they're fishing. Game agencies

1025
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 1: are supposed to manage fishing wildlife, and there may be

1026
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: nuances and how they define those things, but they often

1027
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 1: include lots of stuff that's not you know, game or

1028
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: sport fish, animals. So that's sort of you know, first reason,

1029
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 1: there's there's this legal reason, right, um the second reason

1030
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: we do it, and I stock I want to talk

1031
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:11,200
Speaker 1: with legal reasons. So you're saying a state, um has

1032
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,919
Speaker 1: that knowing that the money is going to come from,

1033
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 1: knowing that the money is coming from hunters and fishermen,

1034
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 1: they still like with that bit of knowledge, they still

1035
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 1: have it written in that you have to manage all wildlife.

1036
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what the consideration originally was

1037
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 1: when it went into statute and in terms of where

1038
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 1: the funding would come from, but yes, it is. You know,

1039
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: we have a statutory obligation to manage fisher wildline. It

1040
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 1: could be sued for not doing it. I suppose we could. Okay,

1041
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 1: so there's a legal reason, right, so you know, there's

1042
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: there's the ethical reason. And I genuinely believe that this

1043
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:48,760
Speaker 1: one is important to a lot of people in our

1044
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 1: agency that you know, managing ecosystems as a whole is

1045
01:03:54,840 --> 01:04:00,919
Speaker 1: the right thing to do. Trying to pass on our

1046
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 1: natural history as intact as possible is the right thing

1047
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 1: to do. So that's that's an ethical argument for for

1048
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: why we do it. And you feel that that that

1049
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 1: sentiment is is held. That's like a widespread belief within agencies.

1050
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 1: I do, yeah, because you guys didn't just all get

1051
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 1: into it because a huge paycheck. It's a great it's

1052
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 1: a great way to make a living, it really is,

1053
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 1: but it is it is h not one that necessarily

1054
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 1: comes with lots of zeros. So you know. The third

1055
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:41,919
Speaker 1: reason is the ecological argument. Right, So if we want

1056
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:45,600
Speaker 1: healthy populations of the kind of things that we like

1057
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 1: to hunt and fish for out in the landscape, they're

1058
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: part of an ecosystem. You you never know what's going

1059
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 1: to happen when one thing or another disappears. You you

1060
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 1: never know, you know what might cause things to fall

1061
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 1: apart from ecosystem level. It's you know, it's it's the

1062
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:08,960
Speaker 1: Aldo Leopold intelligent tinkering quote, right, you know. Um, so

1063
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 1: we want to preserve all the cogs and wheels from

1064
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 1: an ecological standpoint. So that's you know, reason number three.

1065
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 1: The the ecological argument that it's it's good overall to

1066
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 1: have healthy functioning ecosystems and all the things that go

1067
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 1: with them because of the interconnectedness of it all. Yeah,

1068
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 1: that that's that's what I think about a lot. I

1069
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 1: think a lot of people that hunt fish and look

1070
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 1: at wildlife through that lens of just like are there

1071
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 1: a lot of deer around right now or not? Like

1072
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 1: was it a good deer season or not? Because I

1073
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 1: sat in my dear blind two days and I want

1074
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:42,720
Speaker 1: to know if I saw more deer last year than

1075
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 1: the year before, Like if you have like that limited

1076
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 1: of a view of wildlife, I think that often times

1077
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 1: you can kind of miss some bigger pictures about things,

1078
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 1: and we're at some time talk about it's not long ago.

1079
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 1: Where like in the in the nineties, in the eighties

1080
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 1: and nineties, like we were kind of change aging in

1081
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:02,360
Speaker 1: this country. In the middle of the country, we were

1082
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 1: changing some practices of how we are growing grain okay,

1083
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: and putting tilling up more land and growing more grain

1084
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 1: and experimenting with new fertilizers did allow us to grow

1085
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 1: much more grain in places that we hadn't traditionally grown grain.

1086
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 1: And this went on in the eighties and nineties and

1087
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 1: kind of rewrote the map on grain production in the US,

1088
01:06:25,120 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 1: and that caused a massive explosion of snow geese to

1089
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 1: the point where snow geese populations quadruple and then went

1090
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 1: beyond that. All of those snow geese spend their time

1091
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 1: they summer and nest in the Arctic, and they started

1092
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 1: to decimate grasslands on the Arctic slope. And another thing

1093
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: that happened from this explosion of snow geese decimating grasslands

1094
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 1: leading to the incursion of salt water into because as

1095
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 1: they destroy the grass and the rhizomal systems, salt water

1096
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 1: would come up and entirely change plant communities on the

1097
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 1: Arctic slope. And meanwhile, polar bears. We're figuring out this

1098
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 1: new resource, and Hudson's Bay had polar bears that are

1099
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 1: eating hundreds of pounds of snow geese eggs and not

1100
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 1: eating things that they used to eat before, changing their

1101
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:30,480
Speaker 1: whole diet around to accommodate or to account for this

1102
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 1: new resource. So you realize that like some dude killing

1103
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:42,920
Speaker 1: ground in North Dakota to grow barley, has such wide

1104
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:49,440
Speaker 1: reaching effects on wildlife that, yeah, like the elder Leopold

1105
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 1: idea that when you pull a lever, it's not happening

1106
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 1: in a vacuum, like you're changing many things along with it, right,

1107
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people fail to realize

1108
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 1: that when they talk about species that are you know

1109
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:08,000
Speaker 1: that we pay attention to or don't pay attention to. Like,

1110
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 1: you can't just have this sort of really nearly idea

1111
01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 1: that you're just gonna let things vanish or trash certain

1112
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 1: things and not have it be felt in strange, weird

1113
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 1: ways elsewhere. You know. Yeah, ecosystems are are complex things,

1114
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:28,120
Speaker 1: and they are much bigger than you think. They are

1115
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 1: much much bigger and generally much more complex because you

1116
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:37,439
Speaker 1: can't anticipate yeah, like things that and you have to

1117
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:38,760
Speaker 1: get over the idea too. I think people have to

1118
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 1: get over the idea that we're like done making mistakes.

1119
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:44,479
Speaker 1: There's sort of a cockiness that comes where we laugh

1120
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,880
Speaker 1: about ship we used to do, but right now we're doing,

1121
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:51,000
Speaker 1: um we just haven't found out yet, yeah, you know,

1122
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 1: making big mistakes right now that we'll later realize we're

1123
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:58,800
Speaker 1: laughably stupid. Well, you know, and I I mean I

1124
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:02,960
Speaker 1: as a as a fisheries manager, right, you know, I

1125
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 1: hope that we continue to get better. I mean, you know,

1126
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 1: we have a lot more science than we did when

1127
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:11,800
Speaker 1: a lot of things were happening, and you know, the

1128
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:14,960
Speaker 1: introduction of non native species has been such a big

1129
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 1: thing in the fisheries world for native fish, and you know,

1130
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:22,720
Speaker 1: we talked about it earlier that that those kind of

1131
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 1: things really are not happening on on the scale. If

1132
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 1: they're happening at all there, they're not happening on the

1133
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 1: scale that they were. So it's it's true. A hundred

1134
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:35,400
Speaker 1: years ago, fisheries management was largely about you know, getting

1135
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 1: fish out in the landscape for people to catch, and

1136
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:41,800
Speaker 1: that meant, you know, anywhere that you could get a

1137
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:45,000
Speaker 1: trout from and go stock it that that was a

1138
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:48,040
Speaker 1: good thing, particularly if you could establish new populations. You know,

1139
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,920
Speaker 1: people people wanted to go to Yellowstone for instance, and

1140
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:54,439
Speaker 1: catch Eastern brook trout and German brown troute, you know,

1141
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:58,439
Speaker 1: along with the native fish. But for quite a long

1142
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 1: time now, you know, we've had a sense that that

1143
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:07,439
Speaker 1: maybe on the best idea, and you know we've been working,

1144
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:11,800
Speaker 1: you know, for the last couple of decades on on

1145
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:14,640
Speaker 1: doing the small things that we can to remedy that

1146
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 1: in in limited places. Um. So you know, it's entirely

1147
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:24,560
Speaker 1: possible that we'll look back in a hundred years and

1148
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:28,920
Speaker 1: and find things that that we did wrong or that

1149
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:33,920
Speaker 1: we wish we hadn't done. Um. You know, But but

1150
01:10:34,080 --> 01:10:37,720
Speaker 1: I really, I mean, I really hope that we're you know,

1151
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:41,639
Speaker 1: that this idea that we want to manage native species

1152
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:46,000
Speaker 1: and that we want to manage intact ecosystems. I would

1153
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:50,639
Speaker 1: be surprised if those concepts have changed dramatically in the future.

1154
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:54,160
Speaker 1: I think the landscape will change to some degree, but

1155
01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:56,639
Speaker 1: I think that we'll still be trying to preserve native

1156
01:10:56,640 --> 01:10:58,639
Speaker 1: species and trying to do the best that we can

1157
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:05,559
Speaker 1: to two manage ecosystems. You know that. The other thing

1158
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 1: I guess that I would say about that is is

1159
01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:13,600
Speaker 1: that you know, Teddy Roosevelter's a quote that I that

1160
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:18,919
Speaker 1: I love. Um. He said that in any moment of decision,

1161
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:21,320
Speaker 1: the best thing that you can do is the right thing,

1162
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:24,960
Speaker 1: the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the

1163
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 1: worst thing is nothing at all. Yeah, I don't know

1164
01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 1: about that. He said that, but I don't know if

1165
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 1: I entirely agree with that. Well, but so you know,

1166
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:36,640
Speaker 1: it's I guess what I would say about that is

1167
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:40,280
Speaker 1: he he's talking about the decision making process, right, So

1168
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:42,760
Speaker 1: when when I am not saying, and I want to

1169
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 1: be clear, is that sometimes doing nothing is the right

1170
01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 1: thing to do, and sometimes we make decisions to do nothing,

1171
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 1: you know, because we think that's the best thing for

1172
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:58,400
Speaker 1: the resource. My my point is that you know, we

1173
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:04,280
Speaker 1: are really often faced with problems that are relatively clear.

1174
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:08,519
Speaker 1: A species that is in decline, right, something that is

1175
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 1: is going away, and we want to work to stop that.

1176
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:17,680
Speaker 1: We want to keep that species on the landscape. So

1177
01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:25,559
Speaker 1: the solutions are not usually nearly as clear as the problem, right. Yeah,

1178
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 1: it's often very hard to understand what can I do

1179
01:12:29,479 --> 01:12:35,360
Speaker 1: to make this situation better? But we we have to

1180
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 1: make a decision. I mean, we have, you know, if

1181
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:39,840
Speaker 1: we want to stop the decline, we have to try

1182
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:42,800
Speaker 1: to do something. And so I think it's important to

1183
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:47,040
Speaker 1: consider that the standard can't be that we always get

1184
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 1: it right of the time. The standard has got to

1185
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:54,680
Speaker 1: be that we do the best we can with the

1186
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:57,800
Speaker 1: information that we have when we come to a point

1187
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 1: that we have to make a decision, and that we're

1188
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:05,519
Speaker 1: brave in making that decision and trying to do something

1189
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:10,160
Speaker 1: understanding that in a hundred years somebody might look back

1190
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:13,200
Speaker 1: and go, man, those people were way off the mark.

1191
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:17,720
Speaker 1: How much of the stuff you do, how much of

1192
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:22,320
Speaker 1: it comes down to like emergencies or is it more

1193
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:28,600
Speaker 1: like these like general kind of long term trends. It's

1194
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:32,680
Speaker 1: more Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting way to look

1195
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:37,400
Speaker 1: at it. I would say that it's it's, uh, it's

1196
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:42,360
Speaker 1: more slow burning emergencies. You know, it's slow burning emergency.

1197
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:46,360
Speaker 1: It's it's things that you know that you know are

1198
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:50,439
Speaker 1: probably headed in a bad direction, and you know, but

1199
01:13:50,600 --> 01:13:53,479
Speaker 1: it also takes a long time to implement solutions. Yeah. Well,

1200
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:56,160
Speaker 1: when I say, like what I would classif as emergency,

1201
01:13:56,200 --> 01:14:00,719
Speaker 1: we recently had a conversation with someone working on Mexican

1202
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:04,080
Speaker 1: gray wolves, okay, and they had you know, there was

1203
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:06,880
Speaker 1: a point when there was seven in existence. Okay. I

1204
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:11,800
Speaker 1: feel like at that point you're sort of in emergency land. Yeah.

1205
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,400
Speaker 1: I mean I think any time that if your goal

1206
01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 1: is to have them not go away, that's an emergency, right.

1207
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:22,439
Speaker 1: Other things are these like I would say, like salmon

1208
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:27,160
Speaker 1: in the lower forty eight so Pacific North like it's

1209
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:32,479
Speaker 1: emergency status right now, I would argue, Okay, other things

1210
01:14:32,520 --> 01:14:34,679
Speaker 1: are like man, you know, like like, for instance, there's

1211
01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:39,160
Speaker 1: we've seen some declines of turkeys in some states, and

1212
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:41,400
Speaker 1: it's kind of mysterious, like what's going on with turkeys?

1213
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:44,760
Speaker 1: I like, not quite emergency yet, but definitely something that

1214
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 1: warrants watching for. Well, yeah, and I mean, ultimately our

1215
01:14:51,280 --> 01:14:54,280
Speaker 1: hope would be that that we don't get surprised by

1216
01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 1: things like that nearly as often anymore. Right, So you know,

1217
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 1: I'm I don't know, I know, I like the hunt turkeys.

1218
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:05,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know a whole lot about turkey

1219
01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 1: biology or or the turkey science world. But you know,

1220
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:11,880
Speaker 1: I would suspect that we know in part that turkeys

1221
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:16,360
Speaker 1: are in decline because there's monitoring data out there about

1222
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:19,839
Speaker 1: turkeys that state fish and wildlife agencies are collecting, probably

1223
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 1: harvest data, you know, as as well as on the

1224
01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 1: ground things like you know, nest success and and had

1225
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:31,040
Speaker 1: success in those kinds of metrics, and you know, all

1226
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:36,320
Speaker 1: of that is aimed at understanding what's going on, so

1227
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:40,080
Speaker 1: that instead of something getting all the way to the

1228
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 1: emergency stage, you know that that we're able to try

1229
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:47,880
Speaker 1: to start implementing solutions before before we get to the

1230
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:51,559
Speaker 1: last seven in captivity. Just yeah, it's a prevent emergencies. Right.

1231
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:57,880
Speaker 1: What do you when you when you take like the

1232
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:02,800
Speaker 1: long the long view on wildlife and wildlife funding, what

1233
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:06,880
Speaker 1: what are some of your feelings? Well, I mean, what

1234
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 1: are some of the things that you're like optimistic about.

1235
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:14,320
Speaker 1: What are some things you're pessimistic about? You know, that's

1236
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:17,720
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that there's a whole lot that that

1237
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:22,280
Speaker 1: I am really personally pessimistic about on the funding side

1238
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:27,839
Speaker 1: of things. Um. You know you're familiar with the argument

1239
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:38,200
Speaker 1: right that Thursday that if Americans um were too you know,

1240
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:42,759
Speaker 1: become increasingly urbanized and they and they dissociate from hunting

1241
01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:48,040
Speaker 1: and fishing. Okay, we have less people out doing these activities, um,

1242
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:52,040
Speaker 1: less people buying firearms that you're gonna see a diminishment

1243
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 1: in dollars to go to wildlife. That doesn't keep you

1244
01:16:58,200 --> 01:16:59,800
Speaker 1: up at like you like you're not like that's just

1245
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:04,320
Speaker 1: too hard to think about? Are too much unknown? Yeah,

1246
01:17:04,400 --> 01:17:07,519
Speaker 1: I mean it's that would certainly be be one of

1247
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:10,160
Speaker 1: those things that for me right now and in my

1248
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:15,160
Speaker 1: role with the agency, you know, um, I've got plenty

1249
01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 1: of on the ground immediate kind of problems. Yeah, I

1250
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:22,240
Speaker 1: think I think it's you know, it's it's a great question.

1251
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:26,600
Speaker 1: Where do you know, where do non consumptive users for

1252
01:17:27,080 --> 01:17:29,719
Speaker 1: for lack of a better term, fit in the picture

1253
01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:33,760
Speaker 1: of wildlife management? And you know, how how do we

1254
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:38,200
Speaker 1: how do we bring them in and and make room

1255
01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:43,120
Speaker 1: for for that viewpoint in the big picture? Um, you know,

1256
01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:46,200
Speaker 1: And and then I think that sort of gets to

1257
01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:49,479
Speaker 1: how how can they contribute? I mean, you know, is

1258
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:54,560
Speaker 1: there a similar model to what we currently do with

1259
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:57,040
Speaker 1: the money that is all tied back to the sail

1260
01:17:57,160 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 1: hunting and fishing licenses with other folks simulate looking forward?

1261
01:18:01,479 --> 01:18:06,600
Speaker 1: Is there a way that non consumptive wildlife users? Is

1262
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:08,360
Speaker 1: there a way we would find that they would start

1263
01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:11,680
Speaker 1: funding some stuff with wildlife? Well, I know it's not

1264
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:14,320
Speaker 1: your department, but it's like a thing that you've here discussed. Well,

1265
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:16,679
Speaker 1: you just as a guy that likes to spend time outdoors,

1266
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, right, And I mean I think, you know,

1267
01:18:19,400 --> 01:18:21,439
Speaker 1: I guess I think to some degree it is the

1268
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 1: department that I work in, and you know, in the

1269
01:18:23,560 --> 01:18:26,240
Speaker 1: sense that that I work with lots of threatened and

1270
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:30,920
Speaker 1: endangered and imperiled fish, and you know that that would

1271
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:33,400
Speaker 1: be the kind of funding that you know, that could

1272
01:18:33,439 --> 01:18:37,320
Speaker 1: really boost budgets for those things. Um, you know, we

1273
01:18:37,760 --> 01:18:43,040
Speaker 1: we talk about this sometimes at work, you know what

1274
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:47,639
Speaker 1: I mean, one thing and it almost it almost sounds funny,

1275
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:52,120
Speaker 1: but one thing that people can do to support fish

1276
01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:54,720
Speaker 1: and wildlife conservation in the states that they live in

1277
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:57,240
Speaker 1: is to buy a hunting or fishing license, whether they

1278
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:00,719
Speaker 1: go out or not. And you know, I mean again,

1279
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:03,880
Speaker 1: you know, I suppose some folks might chuckle at that,

1280
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:07,439
Speaker 1: but you know, when you look at the fact that

1281
01:19:08,760 --> 01:19:11,160
Speaker 1: that we spend a lot of state money, you know,

1282
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:17,320
Speaker 1: on non game fish and wildlife, and that the formulas

1283
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:20,959
Speaker 1: for money coming to the states through the excise programs

1284
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:24,120
Speaker 1: through PR and DJ are based on how many licenses.

1285
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:27,200
Speaker 1: It's like matching dollars. It's like when you listen to

1286
01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:30,160
Speaker 1: NPR fundraise and they talk about matching dollars. Yeah, you're

1287
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:35,920
Speaker 1: basically getting three to one back. Yeah they should just

1288
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:38,280
Speaker 1: why don't this Why don't the state the states just

1289
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:41,439
Speaker 1: start selling Um, I guess they do, like duck stamp,

1290
01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:44,080
Speaker 1: that's federal, But why does the state just like have

1291
01:19:44,240 --> 01:19:46,120
Speaker 1: a thing that they just put out there. Well, and

1292
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:49,720
Speaker 1: then they who likes to look at and have no

1293
01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:54,439
Speaker 1: license plates. No, no, no, they have like uh they're

1294
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:57,200
Speaker 1: like what like recreation cards they call them or things

1295
01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:00,280
Speaker 1: like that. I don't I'm not a tax stamps. Yeah.

1296
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:03,439
Speaker 1: So we we have a habitat stamp program, which would

1297
01:20:03,439 --> 01:20:05,720
Speaker 1: be another thing. You know, somebody could just buy a

1298
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:09,559
Speaker 1: habitat stamp um. I believe all of that money gets

1299
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:12,040
Speaker 1: matched again, and you can also make a donation on

1300
01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:16,439
Speaker 1: your license plate motor vehicle stuff to go to state. Yeah. So,

1301
01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:19,720
Speaker 1: so like most states, ours is called Share with Wildlife

1302
01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:23,160
Speaker 1: m and a lot of that Year with Wildlife funding

1303
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:26,600
Speaker 1: actually gets matched against state wildlife grant money, you know.

1304
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:31,639
Speaker 1: So that's that's almost exclusively spent on on non game.

1305
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:34,400
Speaker 1: Does that bring any money in? Uh? You know, I

1306
01:20:34,439 --> 01:20:37,559
Speaker 1: don't know the numbers for for what's there. It's it's

1307
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:44,000
Speaker 1: not you know, it's not millions of dollars. So so,

1308
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:46,519
Speaker 1: you know, but I think the path that you were

1309
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:50,680
Speaker 1: going down earlier is like the Holy grail right for

1310
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:53,960
Speaker 1: this kind of funding, which would be an excise tax

1311
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:58,639
Speaker 1: on other outdoor equipment, every damn backpack that gets sold

1312
01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:02,040
Speaker 1: in the country. Well and right, you know that I

1313
01:21:02,120 --> 01:21:07,040
Speaker 1: think that I think we should pay that ship. I

1314
01:21:07,080 --> 01:21:10,120
Speaker 1: would just I would draw like I would come in

1315
01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:12,760
Speaker 1: and I'd go down to r I and I'd be like, yep,

1316
01:21:12,840 --> 01:21:17,240
Speaker 1: all this ship right, and just do that across the board. Yeah,

1317
01:21:17,439 --> 01:21:21,160
Speaker 1: you know, you're at skis anything if you're doing a thing,

1318
01:21:21,520 --> 01:21:23,479
Speaker 1: if you're doing a thing in the out of doors.

1319
01:21:25,200 --> 01:21:28,160
Speaker 1: If I was just like the the emperor of the world, okay,

1320
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:31,160
Speaker 1: just the emperor of the country, I would say that

1321
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:33,639
Speaker 1: if you're doing an outdoor activity, I'm going to tax

1322
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:37,720
Speaker 1: your ship ten percent. Yeah, have a tat and wildlife, right,

1323
01:21:37,800 --> 01:21:40,040
Speaker 1: I mean then unless you can convince me that when

1324
01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:43,600
Speaker 1: you see it elk, you don't look at it, then

1325
01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:46,639
Speaker 1: I'd give you like some kind of exemption. If I'm

1326
01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:48,439
Speaker 1: the emperor, that's how I'm gonna run it. That's how

1327
01:21:48,439 --> 01:21:51,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna run the program. Yeah, you know obviously, like

1328
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:53,919
Speaker 1: you're really telling me honestly you don't look at wildlife,

1329
01:21:54,479 --> 01:21:58,400
Speaker 1: like really don't look at it. Then if that's the case,

1330
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:00,240
Speaker 1: if you look out your windows like holy ship out,

1331
01:22:00,640 --> 01:22:04,840
Speaker 1: you pay for all your ship. That's what I would do. Yeah,

1332
01:22:04,880 --> 01:22:07,439
Speaker 1: and I can't you know, I would never advocate a

1333
01:22:07,960 --> 01:22:11,040
Speaker 1: legislative position, but you know, I mean, I know, but

1334
01:22:11,160 --> 01:22:13,920
Speaker 1: here's the thing you could be buying. You could be

1335
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:19,280
Speaker 1: buying a little like pocket pistol, okay, for home defense.

1336
01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:25,280
Speaker 1: You're paying for wildlife. How does that have How does

1337
01:22:25,320 --> 01:22:27,760
Speaker 1: they have more to do with wildlife than a pair

1338
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:33,320
Speaker 1: of hiking boots. It's an imperfect system right now. I'm

1339
01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 1: not saying we should excuse those people. I just think that. Yeah,

1340
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:39,120
Speaker 1: and again you're like, you know, I know you don't

1341
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:40,479
Speaker 1: want to, you can't like you don't want to give

1342
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:42,559
Speaker 1: an opinion about this because of the capacity in which

1343
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:44,920
Speaker 1: you hear. But I just feel like if that person

1344
01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:47,200
Speaker 1: is paying or do with hiking boots, should damn should

1345
01:22:47,200 --> 01:22:49,640
Speaker 1: be paying at least a DJ. They sort of did

1346
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:52,240
Speaker 1: that with the boat fuel. I didn't know that because

1347
01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:55,120
Speaker 1: it's not like only fishermen or Yeah, yesterday I saw

1348
01:22:55,120 --> 01:22:57,280
Speaker 1: a lot of people out there that obviously are chipping

1349
01:22:57,320 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 1: in and they weren't doing any fishing. Yeah, so that

1350
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:03,080
Speaker 1: you're right, some dude pulling wakeboards is like a is

1351
01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:06,519
Speaker 1: like an urban person who has a concealed carry and

1352
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:09,559
Speaker 1: every time they buy AMMO or whatever they're kicking in. Yeah,

1353
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:12,840
Speaker 1: the dude pulling weakeboards is paying for fish. Yeah, we've

1354
01:23:12,920 --> 01:23:16,320
Speaker 1: heard reasons why this actor or these things happen gone through.

1355
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:18,519
Speaker 1: What's interesting to me is that we out often ask

1356
01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:20,400
Speaker 1: like a lot of people we work with aren't necessarily

1357
01:23:20,479 --> 01:23:25,160
Speaker 1: hunters and fishermen, but they are rock climbers and skiers

1358
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:28,360
Speaker 1: and whatever. And everybody we ask are like, yeah, sure,

1359
01:23:29,040 --> 01:23:32,519
Speaker 1: I pay what I've heard, and I've only been like,

1360
01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:35,599
Speaker 1: I've had some conversations around us, and I heard. An

1361
01:23:35,720 --> 01:23:38,479
Speaker 1: argument they make is that so many people who make like,

1362
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:43,720
Speaker 1: for instance, apparel okay, sown goods, right, sown goods. It's imported,

1363
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:49,640
Speaker 1: and they're already under such a tax burden from importing

1364
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:54,639
Speaker 1: their materials or importing manufactured goods that they're saying, we're

1365
01:23:54,720 --> 01:23:59,240
Speaker 1: tax too much already. We can't afford to add yet

1366
01:23:59,280 --> 01:24:02,439
Speaker 1: another tax. And I don't know if you went and

1367
01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:05,880
Speaker 1: asked the gun industry like can you afford more taxes

1368
01:24:05,880 --> 01:24:08,520
Speaker 1: and not gonna be like, oh, yeah, no problem. Anybody's

1369
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:11,280
Speaker 1: gonna say that. But that's the argument you hear. And

1370
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:14,320
Speaker 1: they resisted because people go to like outdoor retailers and

1371
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:16,200
Speaker 1: push them on this idea and they don't want it.

1372
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:20,200
Speaker 1: They don't want it. But meanwhile, the hunting, the hunting

1373
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:22,240
Speaker 1: and fishing industries were like, please do it, let's do it.

1374
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:25,880
Speaker 1: But Roosevelt put Roosevelt put it to and Franklin Roselt

1375
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:28,360
Speaker 1: put to. He's like, no one will pay for this

1376
01:24:28,439 --> 01:24:30,960
Speaker 1: except you. If you want this to happen, you will

1377
01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:32,920
Speaker 1: have to pay for it because no one else is

1378
01:24:32,920 --> 01:24:37,360
Speaker 1: going to do it. And they did it. M Advocating

1379
01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:39,680
Speaker 1: for any taxes on a political level two is like

1380
01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:43,559
Speaker 1: political different world suicide. It's a different world now than

1381
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:46,920
Speaker 1: it was. But I think it's like it would solve

1382
01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:49,840
Speaker 1: so many of our problems. Maybe it doesn't need to

1383
01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:54,320
Speaker 1: be ten to eleven. We're getting a light yeah, because

1384
01:24:54,320 --> 01:24:58,400
Speaker 1: they're like, we'll give them like a lightweight user break. Mhm.

1385
01:25:00,479 --> 01:25:03,200
Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately, the revenue needs to be generated somehow,

1386
01:25:03,479 --> 01:25:06,080
Speaker 1: so it's got to come from somewhere. Didn't the state

1387
01:25:06,160 --> 01:25:08,840
Speaker 1: that the state somewhere to add a little bit on

1388
01:25:08,960 --> 01:25:18,080
Speaker 1: a sales tax for wild Yeah? Um, I believe. I

1389
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:21,479
Speaker 1: believe it may have been Missouri, but I think you

1390
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:29,200
Speaker 1: should confirm that one dude down there. Um, so you know,

1391
01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:35,680
Speaker 1: I would mention that please that if if in in

1392
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:39,439
Speaker 1: the mythical world that that were ever to happen, my

1393
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:43,400
Speaker 1: emperor idea, right, that. You know, if they were going

1394
01:25:43,439 --> 01:25:46,000
Speaker 1: to be similar programs to PR and DJ, they would

1395
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:48,360
Speaker 1: have to come with matching state funds. There would have

1396
01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:51,600
Speaker 1: to be a matching source of state revenue. If it

1397
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:53,800
Speaker 1: was exactly the same model. You don't want to all

1398
01:25:53,880 --> 01:25:56,599
Speaker 1: go into the federal kittie. Well, you know, I mean

1399
01:25:56,920 --> 01:25:59,760
Speaker 1: because just to say that right now we have we

1400
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:03,000
Speaker 1: have license sale dollars that we match against, you know,

1401
01:26:03,240 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 1: to do the whole reimbursement things we talked about her.

1402
01:26:05,479 --> 01:26:08,320
Speaker 1: So I'll think of a remedy to that. Then I

1403
01:26:08,360 --> 01:26:11,000
Speaker 1: would say that that all states are gonna have to

1404
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:13,639
Speaker 1: add a one percent sales tax to fun fishing wildlife

1405
01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:16,320
Speaker 1: to give matching dollars a draw off. My backpacker tacks,

1406
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:24,080
Speaker 1: that's fine. How do you start a movement like a

1407
01:26:24,280 --> 01:26:28,559
Speaker 1: like a movement, I don't know, you to be hard

1408
01:26:28,600 --> 01:26:31,519
Speaker 1: pressed to get people to pay more. Man, No, that's

1409
01:26:31,560 --> 01:26:34,080
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Though, every time we ask the people,

1410
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:37,840
Speaker 1: we've yet to have everything. I know that every backpacker

1411
01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:40,120
Speaker 1: I knows, like dude, that would totally pat if I

1412
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:42,200
Speaker 1: knew that that's how it work. If I knew that

1413
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:44,000
Speaker 1: that's how it worked, And that's where I went out

1414
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:47,040
Speaker 1: happily packed. I think there's a gray when it's voluntary

1415
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:49,840
Speaker 1: or mandated. When she started getting told what to do,

1416
01:26:50,280 --> 01:26:52,439
Speaker 1: because some people just like the relief of being told

1417
01:26:52,479 --> 01:26:57,479
Speaker 1: what to do. I don't know, I'll go along, all right, Mike,

1418
01:26:57,560 --> 01:26:59,720
Speaker 1: what else? Man? What else? What else? You got? Yeah?

1419
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:02,599
Speaker 1: So you know, we we covered We covered a couple

1420
01:27:03,080 --> 01:27:06,839
Speaker 1: of those. Why do we manage non game fishing, wildlife,

1421
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:14,360
Speaker 1: species arguments, and legal, ethical, ecological right. So those those

1422
01:27:14,360 --> 01:27:16,280
Speaker 1: are the three that we talked about. But you know,

1423
01:27:16,439 --> 01:27:21,320
Speaker 1: there are three really pragmatic reasons why if you say,

1424
01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:27,240
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not personally concerned about non game animals,

1425
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:31,559
Speaker 1: you know that there are still some reasons why it's

1426
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:36,800
Speaker 1: in your best interests that your state is managing those things.

1427
01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:41,160
Speaker 1: So the first one, and you know you guys have

1428
01:27:41,320 --> 01:27:46,920
Speaker 1: talked a lot about it in the past, is um it.

1429
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:49,680
Speaker 1: We think as a state agency that it's a good

1430
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:53,360
Speaker 1: thing for us to maintain as much management control over

1431
01:27:53,479 --> 01:27:57,160
Speaker 1: species as as we can. It's generally in the state's

1432
01:27:57,280 --> 01:28:02,120
Speaker 1: interest to manage its own fishing wildlife, so we want

1433
01:28:02,240 --> 01:28:05,360
Speaker 1: to as opposed to what as opposed to federal manager.

1434
01:28:05,800 --> 01:28:09,559
Speaker 1: So we want to do what we can in part

1435
01:28:09,600 --> 01:28:11,280
Speaker 1: because it's the right thing to do, in part because

1436
01:28:11,280 --> 01:28:14,879
Speaker 1: it's our interests from a management perspective to keep animals

1437
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:19,439
Speaker 1: from getting listed under the endangered species to maintain your jurisdiction, right,

1438
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:22,439
Speaker 1: So we want to know what's going on with those

1439
01:28:22,479 --> 01:28:26,040
Speaker 1: animals out in the landscape, you know, and we want

1440
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:28,920
Speaker 1: to work towards conserving those animals in the cases when

1441
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:31,759
Speaker 1: we can, particularly if we think that they're in decline,

1442
01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:35,000
Speaker 1: that helps keep them off the list. And then animals

1443
01:28:35,400 --> 01:28:37,840
Speaker 1: once they do get on the list, or if they

1444
01:28:37,880 --> 01:28:40,120
Speaker 1: do get on the list, we want to work towards

1445
01:28:40,160 --> 01:28:44,719
Speaker 1: recovery to bring more management authority back to the state.

1446
01:28:45,479 --> 01:28:47,439
Speaker 1: And you know, I want to be clear, we work

1447
01:28:47,520 --> 01:28:51,360
Speaker 1: with lots of federal partners very closely in very productive ways.

1448
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:56,040
Speaker 1: You know. It is it is not that, you know,

1449
01:28:56,160 --> 01:28:59,320
Speaker 1: we're not interested in working with our federal partners. It's

1450
01:28:59,439 --> 01:29:03,080
Speaker 1: just that, you know, from the state's perspective, keeping things

1451
01:29:03,160 --> 01:29:05,519
Speaker 1: off the list and recovering animals once they're on helps

1452
01:29:05,560 --> 01:29:09,439
Speaker 1: us maintain more more management authority. Yeah, it's like doing

1453
01:29:09,479 --> 01:29:13,160
Speaker 1: your You're doing your job, right, So you know, that's

1454
01:29:13,360 --> 01:29:17,160
Speaker 1: that's one pragmatic reason is to head off listing and

1455
01:29:17,240 --> 01:29:19,719
Speaker 1: work towards recovery in the cases where things are listed,

1456
01:29:19,800 --> 01:29:23,400
Speaker 1: because if it gets listed and the FEDS assumed control

1457
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:26,040
Speaker 1: of it, there might be things that would happen that

1458
01:29:26,080 --> 01:29:30,720
Speaker 1: would have negative implications for people in your state. Well yeah,

1459
01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:34,960
Speaker 1: and so that that really ties to to the second

1460
01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:39,080
Speaker 1: part of that, which is that because the Fish and

1461
01:29:39,160 --> 01:29:44,200
Speaker 1: Wildlife Service administers these federal aid programs, that's what you know,

1462
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:49,559
Speaker 1: call them federal aid programs. Um, we to get that money,

1463
01:29:50,479 --> 01:29:54,080
Speaker 1: we have to ensure that we are complying with all

1464
01:29:54,160 --> 01:29:58,920
Speaker 1: the federal laws. So getting the money creates this next

1465
01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:02,439
Speaker 1: us to the federal govern an which means that you know,

1466
01:30:02,840 --> 01:30:06,240
Speaker 1: we have to consult on almost everything we do or

1467
01:30:06,320 --> 01:30:08,439
Speaker 1: every project that we use money on, we have to

1468
01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:10,719
Speaker 1: consult with the Fish and Wildlife Service to make sure

1469
01:30:11,720 --> 01:30:17,120
Speaker 1: that everybody understands what the potential impacts two animals that

1470
01:30:17,240 --> 01:30:20,519
Speaker 1: are listed under ESA will be. And there's other federal

1471
01:30:20,600 --> 01:30:24,160
Speaker 1: laws like the National Environmental Policy Act NIPA, you know,

1472
01:30:24,200 --> 01:30:26,600
Speaker 1: and other things that we have to comply with. And

1473
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:29,519
Speaker 1: and so a really good give I need to back

1474
01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:31,160
Speaker 1: up on that one. So you're saying, like, let's say

1475
01:30:31,160 --> 01:30:34,720
Speaker 1: you wanted to do a project, Um, you're gonna do

1476
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:39,040
Speaker 1: a thing to help out trout, okay, trout habitat you're

1477
01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:42,439
Speaker 1: saying that you also need to make sure that that

1478
01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:47,200
Speaker 1: work isn't going to impact an endangered speed an endanger

1479
01:30:47,360 --> 01:30:51,040
Speaker 1: threatened species. That's yeah, that's exactly right. And so you know,

1480
01:30:51,400 --> 01:30:54,200
Speaker 1: a really good example that that kind of ties these

1481
01:30:54,240 --> 01:30:59,320
Speaker 1: two things together is that there's currently action to list

1482
01:30:59,439 --> 01:31:03,599
Speaker 1: to partial in the lift Rio grande chub. Rio grande

1483
01:31:03,720 --> 01:31:06,759
Speaker 1: chub exists in a lot of places in New Mexico.

1484
01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:11,000
Speaker 1: Some of those places are recreational rainbow trout fisheries that

1485
01:31:11,080 --> 01:31:16,800
Speaker 1: we stocked with rainbow trout. Right, so we use Dingle

1486
01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:20,840
Speaker 1: Johnson money at our hatcheries, you know, to raise the

1487
01:31:20,920 --> 01:31:23,040
Speaker 1: fish and to drive him out there to stock them.

1488
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:25,679
Speaker 1: And there's you know, there's a there's a fair number

1489
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:28,000
Speaker 1: of high use fisheries in New Mexico that you know

1490
01:31:28,080 --> 01:31:31,200
Speaker 1: wouldn't sustain wild trout populations at the kind of harvest,

1491
01:31:31,439 --> 01:31:34,240
Speaker 1: and those rainbow trout aren't good for the chubbs. Well,

1492
01:31:34,600 --> 01:31:37,160
Speaker 1: you know, I don't I don't know that I would

1493
01:31:37,160 --> 01:31:40,840
Speaker 1: say that out of hand. Um, I don't know that

1494
01:31:40,960 --> 01:31:44,960
Speaker 1: we have great data on on good or not. There

1495
01:31:45,000 --> 01:31:47,400
Speaker 1: are a lot of places that we There are places

1496
01:31:47,439 --> 01:31:50,120
Speaker 1: that we stock Rio grande chub or I'm sorry that

1497
01:31:50,160 --> 01:31:52,880
Speaker 1: we stock rainbow trout that also have Rio grande chub.

1498
01:31:53,040 --> 01:31:57,160
Speaker 1: So it it's not a completely exclusive thing, you know.

1499
01:31:58,240 --> 01:32:03,760
Speaker 1: But like again, you know, from a pragmatic perspective, if

1500
01:32:04,600 --> 01:32:08,200
Speaker 1: real ground a chub were to be listed, there would

1501
01:32:09,200 --> 01:32:12,280
Speaker 1: be a consultation that would have to happen about the

1502
01:32:12,320 --> 01:32:18,960
Speaker 1: potential impacts of rainbow trout on chub and that would

1503
01:32:19,080 --> 01:32:24,120
Speaker 1: have an effect to you know, the average trout fisherman

1504
01:32:24,160 --> 01:32:29,680
Speaker 1: out there who utilizes those. Yeah that, if that, it

1505
01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:32,400
Speaker 1: could spell bad ship for rainbow trout in some place.

1506
01:32:32,560 --> 01:32:34,360
Speaker 1: Not that I'm a fan of rainbow trout, but it

1507
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:37,240
Speaker 1: could spell bad ship for rainbow trout if that, if

1508
01:32:37,280 --> 01:32:39,760
Speaker 1: the chub got listed as an endangered species, yeah, I

1509
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:42,640
Speaker 1: mean it it had, it would have the potential to

1510
01:32:43,040 --> 01:32:45,200
Speaker 1: to change that landscape. And have you ever read the

1511
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:48,559
Speaker 1: book arguing that that lays out a really lucid argument

1512
01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:51,880
Speaker 1: that the rainbow of describing the rainbow trout as a

1513
01:32:51,920 --> 01:32:56,000
Speaker 1: synthetic fish and entirely synthetic fish. And there's Tealverston. I

1514
01:32:56,040 --> 01:33:00,280
Speaker 1: think the man made fish. It's it's it's when you

1515
01:33:00,320 --> 01:33:02,120
Speaker 1: start reading the history of that fish and how it's

1516
01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:05,240
Speaker 1: been spread around and how it all came to be. Yeah,

1517
01:33:05,320 --> 01:33:08,400
Speaker 1: it's like a make believe fish. Yeah, and again, you know,

1518
01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:10,960
Speaker 1: very popular make belief fish. But the path of that

1519
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:14,200
Speaker 1: people look at and associate it somehow with wildness or

1520
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:19,840
Speaker 1: pristineness is laughable. Yeah, except for very few watersheds. I

1521
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:22,000
Speaker 1: don't want to make a value judgment about rainbow trout.

1522
01:33:24,320 --> 01:33:27,599
Speaker 1: We certainly have a lot of folks. People love them,

1523
01:33:27,760 --> 01:33:30,080
Speaker 1: people love them, but it's it's like it's kind of

1524
01:33:30,320 --> 01:33:32,200
Speaker 1: Jimmy Dorn you raise in your hand, but you live

1525
01:33:32,240 --> 01:33:38,600
Speaker 1: in actual rainbow trout country, so you don't county the

1526
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:42,640
Speaker 1: Pacific rim you could, you could. Yeah, it's okay to

1527
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:46,240
Speaker 1: like rainbow trout on the Pacific route. It's all the

1528
01:33:46,360 --> 01:33:51,880
Speaker 1: other people. If you, if you when you flush your toilet,

1529
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:58,160
Speaker 1: if that water flows into the Pacific, you can like

1530
01:33:58,360 --> 01:34:01,760
Speaker 1: rainbow trout. You flush your toilet and it doesn't. You

1531
01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:05,280
Speaker 1: should not like them. Okay. That's coming from me, alright,

1532
01:34:05,320 --> 01:34:08,320
Speaker 1: not our guests rule. And you know I would provide

1533
01:34:08,360 --> 01:34:10,000
Speaker 1: one perspective on that. I mean, I you know, I

1534
01:34:10,080 --> 01:34:13,240
Speaker 1: grew up in Pennsylvania, right, and that they stock a

1535
01:34:13,280 --> 01:34:16,320
Speaker 1: lot of trout in Pennsylvania. And I grew up fishing rainbows. Oh,

1536
01:34:16,400 --> 01:34:18,680
Speaker 1: we did was fishing non natives in Michigan. I'm not

1537
01:34:18,840 --> 01:34:21,080
Speaker 1: saying like I'm not holier than thou. I'm just saying

1538
01:34:21,120 --> 01:34:26,400
Speaker 1: it's like we've created a weird situation all over the country.

1539
01:34:26,920 --> 01:34:28,920
Speaker 1: When I was growing up, we we did fish something.

1540
01:34:28,960 --> 01:34:31,479
Speaker 1: We fished native fish. We spend a ton of time

1541
01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:35,960
Speaker 1: fishing a lot of things that had been introduced into

1542
01:34:36,040 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 1: our ecosystem to the detriment of native species, right. And

1543
01:34:43,240 --> 01:34:46,679
Speaker 1: I think that we're gonna have if we're looking long ways,

1544
01:34:47,880 --> 01:34:50,000
Speaker 1: I think that we're going to continue that there's gonna

1545
01:34:50,040 --> 01:34:54,080
Speaker 1: be a forced reckoning with that going forward. And you've

1546
01:34:54,120 --> 01:34:56,200
Speaker 1: kind of alluded it to yourself a little bit. I mean,

1547
01:34:56,280 --> 01:34:58,720
Speaker 1: I you know, I think to a degree, we're we're

1548
01:34:58,760 --> 01:35:03,160
Speaker 1: in the reckoning. We're we're at least constantly looking for

1549
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:07,360
Speaker 1: a balance. I mean for you know, how and where

1550
01:35:08,080 --> 01:35:12,360
Speaker 1: we manage water specifically for native fish, you know, in

1551
01:35:12,439 --> 01:35:17,280
Speaker 1: other places where we manage water for recreational opportunities, and

1552
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:21,559
Speaker 1: you know, we recently published a statewide fisheries management plan.

1553
01:35:21,680 --> 01:35:24,720
Speaker 1: If you know, if anybody's interested in a particular water

1554
01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:26,960
Speaker 1: in New Mexico, you can go in there and it

1555
01:35:27,040 --> 01:35:31,360
Speaker 1: will outline, you know, what are our main management objective is.

1556
01:35:31,439 --> 01:35:35,360
Speaker 1: And and that is not to say, you know, just

1557
01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:37,639
Speaker 1: because it says the water is going to be managed

1558
01:35:37,680 --> 01:35:41,639
Speaker 1: for native fish that they're absolutely won't be any sport

1559
01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:45,160
Speaker 1: fish there, but you know, it does provide some insight

1560
01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:48,120
Speaker 1: into what the state's thinking. Yeah, because a lot but

1561
01:35:48,200 --> 01:35:51,200
Speaker 1: because a lot of the relationships are totally harmonious, Like

1562
01:35:51,320 --> 01:35:54,160
Speaker 1: it's really hard. People try, but people don't have a

1563
01:35:54,240 --> 01:35:56,200
Speaker 1: lot of luck. And there are exceptions to this, but

1564
01:35:56,280 --> 01:35:58,680
Speaker 1: like generally people look and be like, it's hard to

1565
01:35:58,840 --> 01:36:05,280
Speaker 1: find rock solid evidence that turkeys are delaterious in all

1566
01:36:05,320 --> 01:36:08,600
Speaker 1: the places they've been introduced, right, It's like there's some

1567
01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:12,680
Speaker 1: suspicions here and there, but it's just generally like when

1568
01:36:12,720 --> 01:36:15,520
Speaker 1: you put turkeys on the ground, we haven't yet identified

1569
01:36:17,080 --> 01:36:20,040
Speaker 1: away in which that's a major screw up, quite like

1570
01:36:20,160 --> 01:36:22,919
Speaker 1: we had when you put common carp into a waterway.

1571
01:36:23,439 --> 01:36:26,519
Speaker 1: There's a tremendous amount of evidence that suggests we shouldn't

1572
01:36:26,520 --> 01:36:32,080
Speaker 1: have dumped carp everywhere, right, you know, you know, and

1573
01:36:32,400 --> 01:36:35,840
Speaker 1: I mean, to my point, even I worked in the

1574
01:36:35,880 --> 01:36:39,120
Speaker 1: Elsta National Park before I worked for New Mexico UM,

1575
01:36:39,720 --> 01:36:43,599
Speaker 1: and even there, in their current Native fish Conservation plan,

1576
01:36:44,280 --> 01:36:48,000
Speaker 1: you know, they identify a portion of the park it's

1577
01:36:48,200 --> 01:36:52,080
Speaker 1: uh the Firehole River, the Given River below the falls,

1578
01:36:52,920 --> 01:36:57,920
Speaker 1: and the Madison where you know, they are essentially saying,

1579
01:36:58,320 --> 01:37:01,000
Speaker 1: this is an area that is a high value recreational

1580
01:37:01,040 --> 01:37:05,960
Speaker 1: trout fishery, and we, at least in the I believe

1581
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:08,360
Speaker 1: the twenty year time frame of that plan, don't intend

1582
01:37:08,479 --> 01:37:12,599
Speaker 1: to do native fish work in that reach. That's the balance.

1583
01:37:13,640 --> 01:37:16,040
Speaker 1: So they're saying, like, we're gonna have room for non

1584
01:37:16,200 --> 01:37:19,200
Speaker 1: native trout, brown trout, rainbow trout. We're making room for

1585
01:37:19,280 --> 01:37:22,120
Speaker 1: those fisheries because people value it. Well, they're not necessarily

1586
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:25,040
Speaker 1: saying they're not making room in the sense that they're

1587
01:37:25,120 --> 01:37:30,040
Speaker 1: expanding them in any way. They're they're just not actively

1588
01:37:30,120 --> 01:37:35,679
Speaker 1: working to control non native trout in those places. Yeah.

1589
01:37:36,120 --> 01:37:37,640
Speaker 1: So so go back to talk about the thing you

1590
01:37:37,680 --> 01:37:41,120
Speaker 1: guys published the where you can look up your waterway. Yeah,

1591
01:37:41,160 --> 01:37:45,280
Speaker 1: it's it's the it's the statewide UH Fisheries Management Plan.

1592
01:37:45,439 --> 01:37:48,040
Speaker 1: It's available through the New Mexico Department. It lays out

1593
01:37:48,080 --> 01:37:51,439
Speaker 1: like what long term goals are. Yeah. It it lays

1594
01:37:51,479 --> 01:37:56,320
Speaker 1: out what are what our management objectives are in uh

1595
01:37:56,960 --> 01:37:58,920
Speaker 1: in the waters of the state. Is there anything in

1596
01:37:59,000 --> 01:38:04,240
Speaker 1: there that's real like introversial? Um? You know, I suppose

1597
01:38:04,280 --> 01:38:08,240
Speaker 1: that that would that would depend who you ask it. Uh.

1598
01:38:09,479 --> 01:38:13,080
Speaker 1: It has largely been supported by by the public, and

1599
01:38:13,479 --> 01:38:17,360
Speaker 1: of course it was approved by by our commissions. So UM,

1600
01:38:18,400 --> 01:38:22,840
Speaker 1: you know, there may be folks that are unhappy with

1601
01:38:23,479 --> 01:38:27,600
Speaker 1: with the direction some specific waters are going. But of

1602
01:38:27,680 --> 01:38:29,760
Speaker 1: course it's a quite a hard thing to do to

1603
01:38:29,800 --> 01:38:34,559
Speaker 1: make everybody happy all the time. So does that exhaust

1604
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:37,559
Speaker 1: your list of why? Your list of things about why

1605
01:38:37,640 --> 01:38:39,560
Speaker 1: we should I want to hear the long list, not

1606
01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:42,120
Speaker 1: want more? I got you know. The last one is

1607
01:38:42,240 --> 01:38:47,680
Speaker 1: is that UM, when we work on on projects that

1608
01:38:47,800 --> 01:38:54,280
Speaker 1: benefit non game animals, they almost always have ancillary benefits

1609
01:38:54,680 --> 01:39:00,320
Speaker 1: for things that we more generally associate with hunting or angling. UM.

1610
01:39:00,600 --> 01:39:02,720
Speaker 1: I've been working on a project for Chihuahua chub in

1611
01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:06,080
Speaker 1: the Members River, which is in southwestern New Mexico, kind

1612
01:39:06,080 --> 01:39:08,160
Speaker 1: of south of the HeLa. How big is this chub?

1613
01:39:09,080 --> 01:39:12,320
Speaker 1: Up to ten or twelve inches? It's it is in

1614
01:39:12,400 --> 01:39:16,840
Speaker 1: the essay listed species. UM. So we've been working to

1615
01:39:16,960 --> 01:39:20,960
Speaker 1: do habitat improvement, which includes work in the Riparian Corridor

1616
01:39:21,720 --> 01:39:26,400
Speaker 1: for the chub and for cherich how leopard frog also

1617
01:39:26,479 --> 01:39:30,560
Speaker 1: a listed species of frog. Um, you know. But but

1618
01:39:30,760 --> 01:39:33,960
Speaker 1: overall we're doing habitat improvement work both in the river

1619
01:39:34,160 --> 01:39:38,880
Speaker 1: and in the Riparian corridor. And that Reparian corridor has havelina,

1620
01:39:39,360 --> 01:39:42,920
Speaker 1: it has mule, deer, quail. Uh. The last time I

1621
01:39:42,960 --> 01:39:44,720
Speaker 1: was down there, I saw bear tracks along the river.

1622
01:39:44,840 --> 01:39:46,720
Speaker 1: It's not the kind of place that a guy from

1623
01:39:46,760 --> 01:39:50,920
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania would expect to encounter bear tracks. But but they're there, um,

1624
01:39:51,640 --> 01:39:54,759
Speaker 1: you know, as well as bats and uh rio grande

1625
01:39:54,840 --> 01:39:58,760
Speaker 1: sucker and other nine game um fish and wildlife. So

1626
01:39:59,160 --> 01:40:01,880
Speaker 1: you know that you will have a benefit for that

1627
01:40:02,080 --> 01:40:05,680
Speaker 1: system on the whole. So even though somebody could look

1628
01:40:05,720 --> 01:40:09,160
Speaker 1: at it and say you're spending money on chubb, while

1629
01:40:09,240 --> 01:40:17,040
Speaker 1: that's true, there's also ancillary benefits for other fish and wildlife. Yeah. Um,

1630
01:40:18,400 --> 01:40:21,280
Speaker 1: do you do anybody fish with those chubs? Uh? Not

1631
01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:25,400
Speaker 1: that I know of. I've I've seen them rise to

1632
01:40:25,720 --> 01:40:29,200
Speaker 1: uh two, you know, may flies on the surface of

1633
01:40:29,280 --> 01:40:33,960
Speaker 1: the river. In theory, you could do you feel that

1634
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:38,040
Speaker 1: there cases where you get do you ever feel blowback

1635
01:40:38,320 --> 01:40:40,640
Speaker 1: from people saying like, why are we spending money? Like

1636
01:40:41,160 --> 01:40:45,200
Speaker 1: do you hear it? We're people within government, like even

1637
01:40:45,240 --> 01:40:51,200
Speaker 1: elected people, um will kind of lampoon yeah, you know,

1638
01:40:52,000 --> 01:40:54,040
Speaker 1: mock the idea of spending money on things that no

1639
01:40:54,120 --> 01:40:57,400
Speaker 1: one like cares, like quote cares about. I mean, like

1640
01:40:57,880 --> 01:41:01,240
Speaker 1: you know, probably like you I hear about it. It's

1641
01:41:01,320 --> 01:41:04,800
Speaker 1: not been a personal experience that I've that I've had

1642
01:41:04,880 --> 01:41:08,680
Speaker 1: were where I had a project that got lampooned in

1643
01:41:08,760 --> 01:41:11,800
Speaker 1: that way and shutdown. I mean, there was a fellow

1644
01:41:11,880 --> 01:41:14,960
Speaker 1: running for president last fall that was mocking a smelt

1645
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:19,639
Speaker 1: in the He was mocking like actually mocking the fish,

1646
01:41:19,920 --> 01:41:25,120
Speaker 1: mocking a smelt in California as being too small to

1647
01:41:25,200 --> 01:41:27,680
Speaker 1: care about. I mean, it does happen, Yeah, I mean

1648
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:33,200
Speaker 1: there's there is politics and involved in everything, and you know,

1649
01:41:33,560 --> 01:41:38,400
Speaker 1: some consideration of politics is is probably always prudent, Like

1650
01:41:38,520 --> 01:41:41,840
Speaker 1: why would anyone care about that? Yeah? And that's you know,

1651
01:41:42,320 --> 01:41:44,200
Speaker 1: let me count the weights, right, And that's in part

1652
01:41:44,320 --> 01:41:46,640
Speaker 1: what I hope to provide people is you know, if

1653
01:41:46,720 --> 01:41:49,920
Speaker 1: you get into those conversations about why should I care

1654
01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:53,960
Speaker 1: about that, you know there's a couple of reasons. I mean,

1655
01:41:54,240 --> 01:41:58,479
Speaker 1: you know, some some pragmatic reasons about you know, why,

1656
01:41:58,680 --> 01:42:02,479
Speaker 1: particularly as hunters and anglers, we should care about working

1657
01:42:02,560 --> 01:42:06,560
Speaker 1: with non game fish and wildlife. The thing that that

1658
01:42:06,920 --> 01:42:08,880
Speaker 1: I returned to again and again and thinking about this

1659
01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:11,640
Speaker 1: and talking about it with other hunters and fishermen is um,

1660
01:42:13,479 --> 01:42:16,280
Speaker 1: it's just kind of like a sickening kind of audacity

1661
01:42:17,520 --> 01:42:22,120
Speaker 1: that we would somehow come to the idea that's that

1662
01:42:22,360 --> 01:42:28,280
Speaker 1: certain species don't warrant existing, like you want to talk

1663
01:42:28,320 --> 01:42:34,479
Speaker 1: about sort of human hubris and arrogance would be that.

1664
01:42:35,040 --> 01:42:36,920
Speaker 1: And I don't care what your understanding of the world

1665
01:42:37,000 --> 01:42:39,680
Speaker 1: is if you have this a completely secular view, if

1666
01:42:39,760 --> 01:42:42,240
Speaker 1: you have a religious view of the world, Like, there's

1667
01:42:42,320 --> 01:42:47,240
Speaker 1: no worldview that I think could really support the idea

1668
01:42:47,320 --> 01:42:50,960
Speaker 1: that we could sit back and let species that exist

1669
01:42:51,080 --> 01:42:56,599
Speaker 1: on this earth vanish because we in this particular moment

1670
01:42:56,680 --> 01:43:00,080
Speaker 1: in time don't really care about it. It's just like

1671
01:43:01,040 --> 01:43:04,920
Speaker 1: it just strikes me as being like absolutely immoral. Yeah,

1672
01:43:04,920 --> 01:43:06,880
Speaker 1: And I don't throw that stuff around, Like I don't

1673
01:43:06,880 --> 01:43:09,120
Speaker 1: weigh in on a lot of like social morality issues.

1674
01:43:09,160 --> 01:43:12,320
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like a you know, when it comes

1675
01:43:12,439 --> 01:43:16,479
Speaker 1: like general terms of morality, I'm kind of like a um.

1676
01:43:16,920 --> 01:43:20,120
Speaker 1: Privacy of your own home kind of guy. Right, Like,

1677
01:43:20,160 --> 01:43:22,840
Speaker 1: I don't really believe in getting in there and legislating

1678
01:43:23,600 --> 01:43:28,360
Speaker 1: activities between consenting adults and stuff. Uh, but when it

1679
01:43:28,439 --> 01:43:33,400
Speaker 1: comes to like moral issues, I feel that wiping things

1680
01:43:33,600 --> 01:43:36,640
Speaker 1: off of the face of the earth gone forever, you

1681
01:43:36,760 --> 01:43:39,360
Speaker 1: are playing with some ship that you should not be

1682
01:43:39,520 --> 01:43:42,080
Speaker 1: playing with. Yeah, I think that's the you know, that's

1683
01:43:42,120 --> 01:43:45,320
Speaker 1: the ethical argument, right, is that that's the right thing

1684
01:43:45,400 --> 01:43:48,639
Speaker 1: to do to to preserve our natural history as intact

1685
01:43:48,680 --> 01:43:53,280
Speaker 1: as we can. The idea that some people find it

1686
01:43:53,360 --> 01:43:59,160
Speaker 1: acceptable that we would have less species on earth, you know,

1687
01:44:00,479 --> 01:44:02,760
Speaker 1: but then some people get swept up in the some

1688
01:44:02,880 --> 01:44:05,360
Speaker 1: people get slept up in the idea that like things

1689
01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:10,360
Speaker 1: go extinct all the time. So it's okay, right, we

1690
01:44:10,439 --> 01:44:13,320
Speaker 1: used to have these big as huge dinosaurs and they're

1691
01:44:13,320 --> 01:44:18,280
Speaker 1: gone now, so I guess doesn't matter. It's kind of

1692
01:44:18,320 --> 01:44:20,600
Speaker 1: like people argue that, but I find it's such like

1693
01:44:20,640 --> 01:44:24,840
Speaker 1: a flawed way of thinking that because extinctions do happen,

1694
01:44:24,920 --> 01:44:27,240
Speaker 1: that we would just open it up and allow them

1695
01:44:27,320 --> 01:44:31,400
Speaker 1: to happen, especially from human caused activities. Yeah, I mean,

1696
01:44:31,640 --> 01:44:34,320
Speaker 1: you know, because you can't argue that's not natural. Even

1697
01:44:34,400 --> 01:44:37,640
Speaker 1: the genesis that we spoke with a right, She's like, extinction.

1698
01:44:37,880 --> 01:44:40,920
Speaker 1: Extinction is natural. Yeah, far more things have gone extinct

1699
01:44:40,960 --> 01:44:44,200
Speaker 1: than here in existence right now. But that's not but

1700
01:44:44,680 --> 01:44:48,040
Speaker 1: but our activities exactly, So I think on our watch,

1701
01:44:49,360 --> 01:44:52,679
Speaker 1: we can't let it happen on our watch. And there's

1702
01:44:52,680 --> 01:44:55,400
Speaker 1: a matter of time scale at play there too, I mean,

1703
01:44:56,040 --> 01:45:00,320
Speaker 1: you know, get in a geological time, you know. Uh.

1704
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:04,160
Speaker 1: And John John McFee has a have you ever read

1705
01:45:04,200 --> 01:45:07,639
Speaker 1: Annals of the Former World? So John McFee wrote three

1706
01:45:07,640 --> 01:45:10,120
Speaker 1: books about geology, and when they were they were eventually

1707
01:45:10,200 --> 01:45:15,720
Speaker 1: published together as Annals of the Former World. And in

1708
01:45:15,840 --> 01:45:17,600
Speaker 1: this book there's there's a couple of things. One he

1709
01:45:17,640 --> 01:45:19,080
Speaker 1: says that if he was gonna, if he had to

1710
01:45:19,160 --> 01:45:24,360
Speaker 1: sum up his his trilogy in one sentence, it would

1711
01:45:24,400 --> 01:45:28,520
Speaker 1: be that the peak of Mount Everest is marine limestone.

1712
01:45:29,640 --> 01:45:32,840
Speaker 1: So the top of Mount Everest is rock that was

1713
01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:36,160
Speaker 1: laid out on the bottom of an ocean. But another

1714
01:45:36,240 --> 01:45:41,200
Speaker 1: point he makes is that if you imagine life on Earth,

1715
01:45:42,120 --> 01:45:44,240
Speaker 1: so not just like the form, but life on Earth.

1716
01:45:44,280 --> 01:45:48,760
Speaker 1: If you imagines being a man's outstretched arms, his life

1717
01:45:48,840 --> 01:45:51,880
Speaker 1: on Earth from one fingertip to the other fingertip as

1718
01:45:51,920 --> 01:45:56,240
Speaker 1: a timeline, you could remove human history with one stroke

1719
01:45:56,360 --> 01:46:02,400
Speaker 1: of a nail file. Right, It's a powerful image. And

1720
01:46:02,439 --> 01:46:05,519
Speaker 1: when you imagine the amount of extinctions that have occurred

1721
01:46:05,600 --> 01:46:08,800
Speaker 1: under our watch, and that one's the amount of extinctions

1722
01:46:08,840 --> 01:46:11,200
Speaker 1: that we have conducted in that one stroke of a

1723
01:46:11,280 --> 01:46:15,840
Speaker 1: nail file, that we're not living at a sustainable rate

1724
01:46:17,439 --> 01:46:21,680
Speaker 1: as far as letting ship slide, you know, and a

1725
01:46:21,720 --> 01:46:23,200
Speaker 1: lot of that ship would have been good hunting fish

1726
01:46:23,240 --> 01:46:27,200
Speaker 1: in the passenger pitch, right, So it is it does

1727
01:46:27,280 --> 01:46:29,240
Speaker 1: impact hunters and fishermen. Man, there's a lot of ship

1728
01:46:29,320 --> 01:46:30,960
Speaker 1: that had been a good to hunt you can't hunt anymore.

1729
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:37,360
Speaker 1: What else, Mike, you know, other things you want to

1730
01:46:37,400 --> 01:46:40,360
Speaker 1: talk about? No, I mean, you know, I think I

1731
01:46:40,439 --> 01:46:43,240
Speaker 1: think we we we covered most of it there. I

1732
01:46:43,320 --> 01:46:46,360
Speaker 1: think there are a couple interesting points when, you know,

1733
01:46:46,439 --> 01:46:49,800
Speaker 1: when we sort of come at at things from the

1734
01:46:49,920 --> 01:46:55,240
Speaker 1: perspective of of you know, what what our agencies doing

1735
01:46:55,320 --> 01:46:58,040
Speaker 1: with the money and and what does what do those

1736
01:46:58,080 --> 01:47:01,720
Speaker 1: things mean not just to hunters and anglers but to

1737
01:47:02,280 --> 01:47:06,160
Speaker 1: other folks? Right? So, um, you know, we mentioned that

1738
01:47:06,240 --> 01:47:11,559
Speaker 1: law enforcement is not reimbursable under Wildlife Sports fish restoration. Next,

1739
01:47:12,320 --> 01:47:16,439
Speaker 1: that's a little surprising because they're doing enforcement on too

1740
01:47:17,080 --> 01:47:19,920
Speaker 1: for the betterment of wildlife. But okay, I'll tell you, like,

1741
01:47:20,000 --> 01:47:22,120
Speaker 1: at face value, I I like, I except what you're saying.

1742
01:47:22,120 --> 01:47:23,920
Speaker 1: But it is a little bit surprising to me, right,

1743
01:47:23,960 --> 01:47:25,320
Speaker 1: And I mean I think it is a little bit

1744
01:47:25,400 --> 01:47:29,320
Speaker 1: surprising because you know, I mean, we essentially police our

1745
01:47:29,360 --> 01:47:32,080
Speaker 1: own ranks in that way, right, I mean we're completely

1746
01:47:32,160 --> 01:47:35,400
Speaker 1: paying for, uh, you know, a law enforcement system to

1747
01:47:35,479 --> 01:47:38,519
Speaker 1: protect the resource. That's ultimately what it's about, right, is

1748
01:47:39,000 --> 01:47:42,479
Speaker 1: to protect those resources. Yeah, and poachers a lot of

1749
01:47:42,520 --> 01:47:44,800
Speaker 1: probably aren't buying licenses, so they're not even paying into this.

1750
01:47:45,000 --> 01:47:46,479
Speaker 1: They're not even paying for the guy that's going to

1751
01:47:46,560 --> 01:47:48,840
Speaker 1: arrest them. That's right there. I mean, you know, they're

1752
01:47:49,240 --> 01:47:52,479
Speaker 1: they're they're doing it for us so that you know,

1753
01:47:53,160 --> 01:47:58,040
Speaker 1: the license buyers have a resource to recreate through. But

1754
01:47:58,400 --> 01:48:02,559
Speaker 1: you know, obviously game wardens do um lots of things

1755
01:48:02,680 --> 01:48:08,320
Speaker 1: that aren't just checking fishing licenses. Um. You know, for instance,

1756
01:48:08,360 --> 01:48:11,760
Speaker 1: when when there's a call about a black bear in

1757
01:48:11,840 --> 01:48:16,559
Speaker 1: somebody's garage, it's often you know that that call ends

1758
01:48:16,640 --> 01:48:20,840
Speaker 1: up with with the game warden and they show up

1759
01:48:21,120 --> 01:48:25,240
Speaker 1: to try to resolve the situation, and generally, you know,

1760
01:48:25,320 --> 01:48:29,160
Speaker 1: their approaches obviously to keep people safe first, but hopefully

1761
01:48:29,240 --> 01:48:32,240
Speaker 1: have the most positive outcome for the for the bear,

1762
01:48:32,800 --> 01:48:35,400
Speaker 1: for whatever wildlife it is when they show up, and

1763
01:48:35,920 --> 01:48:39,280
Speaker 1: you know, they're also not asking the homeowner to see

1764
01:48:39,840 --> 01:48:42,800
Speaker 1: their hunting license when they show up. It's a it's

1765
01:48:42,840 --> 01:48:46,320
Speaker 1: a service that's provided to the public, you know, by

1766
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:50,280
Speaker 1: the hunting and angland community, by the license buyers in

1767
01:48:50,400 --> 01:48:52,800
Speaker 1: those states. Dude, you should say that round their truck

1768
01:48:53,560 --> 01:48:55,719
Speaker 1: brought to you by all due to lie the hunting fish,

1769
01:48:55,920 --> 01:48:58,920
Speaker 1: you know. And and I'm I mean obviously for me,

1770
01:48:59,080 --> 01:49:01,800
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I couldn't be more happy that we do that,

1771
01:49:01,960 --> 01:49:05,519
Speaker 1: because you know, the goal is to have positive outcomes

1772
01:49:06,200 --> 01:49:08,640
Speaker 1: for those animals. But you know, it is it is

1773
01:49:08,760 --> 01:49:11,840
Speaker 1: something that that is being provided, you know. And then

1774
01:49:11,880 --> 01:49:14,160
Speaker 1: the other thing is in a state like New Mexico,

1775
01:49:14,280 --> 01:49:16,960
Speaker 1: most of the western states, and really you know, all

1776
01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:21,000
Speaker 1: across the country, there's there's game wardens who's districts are

1777
01:49:21,080 --> 01:49:24,920
Speaker 1: in remote and you know, rural places and they just

1778
01:49:25,400 --> 01:49:29,160
Speaker 1: overall help to provide a law enforcement presence in those places.

1779
01:49:29,400 --> 01:49:31,479
Speaker 1: You know. We I mean, we hear all the time

1780
01:49:31,520 --> 01:49:34,360
Speaker 1: about game warden's you know, being involved in in things

1781
01:49:34,439 --> 01:49:37,800
Speaker 1: that aren't wildlife related. They're just you know, they're there

1782
01:49:37,880 --> 01:49:39,240
Speaker 1: to help. They show up at the scene of an

1783
01:49:39,240 --> 01:49:42,559
Speaker 1: accident to help folks. I was out in California doing

1784
01:49:42,600 --> 01:49:46,360
Speaker 1: a story about livestock guys that investigate livestock staft and

1785
01:49:46,439 --> 01:49:49,120
Speaker 1: they have a rural crime task Force, and I was

1786
01:49:49,280 --> 01:49:51,280
Speaker 1: I met with game Wardans who'd gone in on drug

1787
01:49:51,439 --> 01:49:54,920
Speaker 1: rates at the time. I think it might have changed

1788
01:49:54,960 --> 01:49:57,200
Speaker 1: after that, but they were called into all kinds of

1789
01:49:57,240 --> 01:50:00,160
Speaker 1: ship sure, and you know, I mean they contact all

1790
01:50:00,280 --> 01:50:02,960
Speaker 1: kinds of folks, and you know when they make those contacts,

1791
01:50:03,040 --> 01:50:06,160
Speaker 1: they do the normal checks that you know law enforcement

1792
01:50:06,240 --> 01:50:10,519
Speaker 1: officers do, and you know, so they just helped keep

1793
01:50:10,600 --> 01:50:14,600
Speaker 1: things safer in general. Um. You know. Another one is

1794
01:50:15,160 --> 01:50:18,160
Speaker 1: uh so we talked a little bit about habitat you know,

1795
01:50:18,240 --> 01:50:21,160
Speaker 1: I I uh, I got an estimate in New Mexico

1796
01:50:22,120 --> 01:50:25,080
Speaker 1: over a ten year span, it will be about twenty

1797
01:50:25,160 --> 01:50:29,200
Speaker 1: five million dollars that's either already been spent or or

1798
01:50:29,280 --> 01:50:32,640
Speaker 1: we have earmarked to spend on habitat protection. And and

1799
01:50:32,840 --> 01:50:37,920
Speaker 1: that is all just PR connected, not the fish stuff

1800
01:50:37,920 --> 01:50:40,920
Speaker 1: that we're doing. And you know, when Jim and robertson

1801
01:50:40,960 --> 01:50:47,160
Speaker 1: not PR public relations, but wildlife Restoration act UM. You know,

1802
01:50:48,120 --> 01:50:51,240
Speaker 1: those projects do lots of things that like are for

1803
01:50:51,479 --> 01:50:56,400
Speaker 1: forest health and watershed health, you know, thinning, controlled burning,

1804
01:50:57,160 --> 01:51:03,360
Speaker 1: things that helped to prevent catastrophe wildfires that would have

1805
01:51:03,560 --> 01:51:07,400
Speaker 1: serious impacts on things like people's water supplies. Right, you

1806
01:51:07,479 --> 01:51:11,160
Speaker 1: don't when when you get catastrophic wildfire. If the town

1807
01:51:11,240 --> 01:51:14,400
Speaker 1: that you live in has a water supply reservoir that's

1808
01:51:14,439 --> 01:51:17,120
Speaker 1: downstream of that and you get some post fire flooding,

1809
01:51:18,600 --> 01:51:22,160
Speaker 1: you can get a lot of you know, negative consequences

1810
01:51:22,880 --> 01:51:26,200
Speaker 1: from from that. And you know, I there's there's at

1811
01:51:26,280 --> 01:51:28,080
Speaker 1: least one example if I can think of where you know,

1812
01:51:28,120 --> 01:51:30,760
Speaker 1: a water supply reservoir you know more or less filled

1813
01:51:30,840 --> 01:51:33,479
Speaker 1: up with sediment than you know, I have to drain

1814
01:51:33,560 --> 01:51:35,760
Speaker 1: it and dredge it to get it back so that

1815
01:51:35,840 --> 01:51:42,080
Speaker 1: it can come back on wildfire. So you know again

1816
01:51:42,240 --> 01:51:45,679
Speaker 1: that the money is is coming through and being matched

1817
01:51:45,720 --> 01:51:48,880
Speaker 1: by license dollars and ultimately being paid for in part,

1818
01:51:49,240 --> 01:51:52,800
Speaker 1: you know, by those license dollars. But and it's good

1819
01:51:52,840 --> 01:51:56,200
Speaker 1: for wildlife and that's the focus of it. But everybody

1820
01:51:56,920 --> 01:52:00,439
Speaker 1: reaps of benefit, you know, from doing things that benefit

1821
01:52:00,840 --> 01:52:05,120
Speaker 1: ecosystem health, farce health, watershed health UM. You know, so

1822
01:52:05,320 --> 01:52:07,960
Speaker 1: I think that that's a great thing that you know,

1823
01:52:08,080 --> 01:52:10,440
Speaker 1: that we helped to do out there in the landscape.

1824
01:52:10,880 --> 01:52:15,040
Speaker 1: The last really interesting example I'll give you is, you know,

1825
01:52:15,240 --> 01:52:18,280
Speaker 1: aquatic invasive species. Of course are are always a big thing,

1826
01:52:19,160 --> 01:52:21,280
Speaker 1: and we do a lot of work with aquatic invasive

1827
01:52:21,320 --> 01:52:27,560
Speaker 1: species um New Mexico. You know, we are fortunate that

1828
01:52:28,040 --> 01:52:31,720
Speaker 1: you know that through the work that we've done. You know,

1829
01:52:31,840 --> 01:52:35,799
Speaker 1: we don't have either of the two really common Asian muscles,

1830
01:52:36,120 --> 01:52:39,640
Speaker 1: so we don't have zebrew or quagga muscles, and you know,

1831
01:52:39,840 --> 01:52:44,800
Speaker 1: we we work hard to do um inspections on watercraft

1832
01:52:44,920 --> 01:52:48,000
Speaker 1: coming into the state, you know, and educate people about

1833
01:52:48,240 --> 01:52:52,439
Speaker 1: those species. And yes, those species getting into systems that

1834
01:52:52,600 --> 01:52:57,000
Speaker 1: would have ecological impacts you know, both to sport fish

1835
01:52:57,080 --> 01:53:00,240
Speaker 1: and to non game fish and probably other well life

1836
01:53:00,280 --> 01:53:03,560
Speaker 1: as well. But they would also have substantial impacts of

1837
01:53:03,600 --> 01:53:07,440
Speaker 1: water infrastructure. So if you have water infrastructure for irrigation

1838
01:53:07,560 --> 01:53:13,200
Speaker 1: that's drawing out of a reservoir and you get zebra

1839
01:53:13,280 --> 01:53:15,800
Speaker 1: muscles in the reservoir, you're gonna have to spend some money,

1840
01:53:16,600 --> 01:53:21,000
Speaker 1: you know, basically keeping those pipes open, keeping zebra muscles

1841
01:53:21,040 --> 01:53:23,400
Speaker 1: from actually growing to a point where it plugs up

1842
01:53:23,439 --> 01:53:25,519
Speaker 1: that water and it's cost it costs in the Great Lakes,

1843
01:53:25,600 --> 01:53:29,040
Speaker 1: they cost hundreds of millions of dollars of infrastructure problems.

1844
01:53:30,120 --> 01:53:33,759
Speaker 1: And I mean to mentioned like the implications for fisheries

1845
01:53:34,640 --> 01:53:36,880
Speaker 1: and so I you know that's that's also I mean

1846
01:53:37,040 --> 01:53:41,160
Speaker 1: we as you know, hunters and anglers are making an

1847
01:53:41,240 --> 01:53:45,000
Speaker 1: investment to keep those things out. And you know there

1848
01:53:45,120 --> 01:53:47,840
Speaker 1: there is a benefit to the general public to do

1849
01:53:47,960 --> 01:53:50,200
Speaker 1: that too. People should be kissing our asses more than

1850
01:53:50,200 --> 01:53:52,599
Speaker 1: they do, man. People should be that you should walk

1851
01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:54,439
Speaker 1: down the road and people should be yelling out their

1852
01:53:54,520 --> 01:53:58,800
Speaker 1: their carbondals. Thank you hunter and fisherman. Well, and I mean,

1853
01:53:58,880 --> 01:54:02,719
Speaker 1: you know, thank you all you do for us. Really,

1854
01:54:02,840 --> 01:54:05,840
Speaker 1: why you know I wanted to come on is is

1855
01:54:05,880 --> 01:54:09,640
Speaker 1: not not you know, not that people or you're not

1856
01:54:09,720 --> 01:54:12,760
Speaker 1: getting the credit you deserve. No, not that, but but

1857
01:54:12,960 --> 01:54:16,960
Speaker 1: so that when we have conversations with people who don't

1858
01:54:17,200 --> 01:54:22,360
Speaker 1: do this, who aren't involved in the recreational side of wildlife.

1859
01:54:23,120 --> 01:54:25,759
Speaker 1: You know, I think and I think you've talked about

1860
01:54:25,760 --> 01:54:31,200
Speaker 1: it like we're a pretty small percentage, right, like something

1861
01:54:31,280 --> 01:54:34,360
Speaker 1: like in in two thousand and six, five percent of

1862
01:54:35,080 --> 01:54:38,520
Speaker 1: man over sixteen years old bought or hunted for deer

1863
01:54:39,600 --> 01:54:43,600
Speaker 1: right and and women, you know, about one percent of

1864
01:54:44,000 --> 01:54:49,160
Speaker 1: of women, so we're not like a huge majority. And

1865
01:54:49,280 --> 01:54:53,360
Speaker 1: it varies greatly by state state right from from less

1866
01:54:53,360 --> 01:54:58,080
Speaker 1: than one to you know upwards higher. But yeah, nationally

1867
01:54:58,080 --> 01:55:01,600
Speaker 1: about five. But you know, so this this thought that

1868
01:55:01,680 --> 01:55:04,600
Speaker 1: it's going to be like some logical argument that we

1869
01:55:04,720 --> 01:55:08,000
Speaker 1: will win or lose, I don't think it's really probably

1870
01:55:08,080 --> 01:55:11,800
Speaker 1: how it's gonna work. But I think if we can

1871
01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:14,920
Speaker 1: take the information about all the things you know that

1872
01:55:15,040 --> 01:55:20,320
Speaker 1: we do, that our benefit not just to fishing wildlife

1873
01:55:20,400 --> 01:55:24,240
Speaker 1: that we can harvest, you know, but also to non

1874
01:55:24,320 --> 01:55:28,120
Speaker 1: game fishing wildlife and also just to the public at large.

1875
01:55:29,040 --> 01:55:32,120
Speaker 1: You know, if we can internalize that and again not

1876
01:55:32,640 --> 01:55:36,120
Speaker 1: approach it like you know, I'm gonna hammer somebody with

1877
01:55:36,240 --> 01:55:38,880
Speaker 1: this argument. But when we engage people and when we

1878
01:55:39,040 --> 01:55:41,800
Speaker 1: talk to folks and when we hear things, you know

1879
01:55:42,240 --> 01:55:46,640
Speaker 1: that we only care about elk, you know that we

1880
01:55:46,760 --> 01:55:50,840
Speaker 1: have a standpoint and informed standpoint to come at that

1881
01:55:51,000 --> 01:55:54,280
Speaker 1: from and say, well, you know, you know, there there

1882
01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:57,160
Speaker 1: are some other things that your state fishing wildlife agency

1883
01:55:57,320 --> 01:56:01,520
Speaker 1: is doing, and you know they're doing them. Revenue that's

1884
01:56:01,560 --> 01:56:04,120
Speaker 1: generated through the sale of hunting and fishing licenses, and

1885
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:09,680
Speaker 1: you know it does benefit you know, and by the way,

1886
01:56:09,720 --> 01:56:14,960
Speaker 1: it does help protect that watershed above your cities, you know,

1887
01:56:15,080 --> 01:56:19,000
Speaker 1: drinking water supply. I think that that can be meaningful. Yeah,

1888
01:56:19,040 --> 01:56:21,080
Speaker 1: And as we learn from Greg Blaskovitch, you need to

1889
01:56:21,120 --> 01:56:25,640
Speaker 1: throw out the argument of I'm controlling the deer populations

1890
01:56:25,680 --> 01:56:30,000
Speaker 1: for you. People don't care. People don't give a ship.

1891
01:56:30,240 --> 01:56:32,800
Speaker 1: And as we know, as you know, you kind of

1892
01:56:32,880 --> 01:56:35,560
Speaker 1: sort of are, and you kind of sort of are recognized,

1893
01:56:35,640 --> 01:56:38,080
Speaker 1: like your average Joe Blow doesn't recognize the problem. No,

1894
01:56:38,880 --> 01:56:42,080
Speaker 1: that's what you're saying. I'm saying that the average I

1895
01:56:42,160 --> 01:56:44,800
Speaker 1: don't even know how true this is. But I feel

1896
01:56:44,800 --> 01:56:47,000
Speaker 1: like a lot of hunters like that. That is like

1897
01:56:47,120 --> 01:56:49,600
Speaker 1: they're like, go to It's like, oh no, this is

1898
01:56:49,640 --> 01:56:52,360
Speaker 1: why you should like us hunter and fisherman, because we're

1899
01:56:52,400 --> 01:56:55,320
Speaker 1: controlling the wildlife population for it, keep the deer numbers down,

1900
01:56:55,440 --> 01:56:58,560
Speaker 1: otherwise they're all going to die of disease. And as

1901
01:56:58,600 --> 01:57:00,520
Speaker 1: we learn from Greg, that argument does of work. People

1902
01:57:00,600 --> 01:57:02,840
Speaker 1: don't care. And I think you in the last ten

1903
01:57:02,880 --> 01:57:05,080
Speaker 1: minutes of given given the people a lot of like

1904
01:57:05,320 --> 01:57:08,920
Speaker 1: great arguments and points to make you know. Yeah, but

1905
01:57:09,000 --> 01:57:14,960
Speaker 1: the great conservationist Jim Pozwits when questioned about why, uh,

1906
01:57:15,880 --> 01:57:21,040
Speaker 1: why does the American public like know the story? And

1907
01:57:21,120 --> 01:57:24,520
Speaker 1: he's like, hunters don't even know the story because you

1908
01:57:24,560 --> 01:57:28,920
Speaker 1: gotta go teach it to them their own story. They

1909
01:57:28,920 --> 01:57:30,840
Speaker 1: don't even know their own story. You gotta teach their

1910
01:57:30,840 --> 01:57:33,240
Speaker 1: own story to them before you have any chance of

1911
01:57:33,360 --> 01:57:37,240
Speaker 1: the broader public understanding it. The guy engaged in it

1912
01:57:37,320 --> 01:57:41,120
Speaker 1: doesn't even know. He just pissed his license fees went

1913
01:57:41,240 --> 01:57:47,600
Speaker 1: up last year. It was three dollars um. Do you

1914
01:57:47,680 --> 01:57:50,480
Speaker 1: want to hear about a couple of state funding successes

1915
01:57:50,560 --> 01:57:53,680
Speaker 1: that are outside of the stuff that we've talked about. Yeah, man,

1916
01:57:53,800 --> 01:57:56,440
Speaker 1: that we're talking about the the some says that added

1917
01:57:56,520 --> 01:58:01,520
Speaker 1: sales taxes, So it's Missouri and Arkansas conservation sales taxes.

1918
01:58:02,040 --> 01:58:06,160
Speaker 1: Virginia and Texas have dedicating tax revenues from outdoor gear,

1919
01:58:07,440 --> 01:58:13,240
Speaker 1: so there are two days are actually taxing tents and backpacks. Uh,

1920
01:58:13,600 --> 01:58:18,040
Speaker 1: dedicate lottery revenues for Colorado, Arizona, Maine, and then Florida

1921
01:58:18,080 --> 01:58:21,320
Speaker 1: and South Carolina have real estate transfer taxes that go

1922
01:58:21,920 --> 01:58:26,200
Speaker 1: directly to Gama fish agencies. More taxes that's not gonna

1923
01:58:26,240 --> 01:58:29,320
Speaker 1: run on no, I'm not joking. But what I do like,

1924
01:58:29,360 --> 01:58:31,120
Speaker 1: I don't like. I don't like gonna run on more taxes,

1925
01:58:31,120 --> 01:58:33,720
Speaker 1: but I am gonna. I am gonna the idea of

1926
01:58:33,920 --> 01:58:40,720
Speaker 1: UM of identifying other user groups who who benefit from

1927
01:58:41,200 --> 01:58:43,280
Speaker 1: wildlife and who tend to want to have a say

1928
01:58:43,360 --> 01:58:46,640
Speaker 1: in wildlife, that you need to earn your seat at

1929
01:58:46,640 --> 01:58:53,160
Speaker 1: the table, right, Yeah, I mean, you know, I certainly

1930
01:58:53,240 --> 01:58:56,480
Speaker 1: think that that when you know, folks look at that

1931
01:58:56,640 --> 01:58:58,840
Speaker 1: and wanting to see at the table, like, you know,

1932
01:58:59,080 --> 01:59:03,680
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to ask, you know, how they're

1933
01:59:03,680 --> 01:59:06,960
Speaker 1: going to contribute. I mean, we have, for as hunters

1934
01:59:07,000 --> 01:59:10,960
Speaker 1: and anglers, we have for a long time now contributed

1935
01:59:11,840 --> 01:59:17,840
Speaker 1: a lot of resources to conserving, fishing, wildlife. Here's the

1936
01:59:17,880 --> 01:59:20,880
Speaker 1: devil advocate argument that I can already hear brewin um

1937
01:59:21,240 --> 01:59:25,720
Speaker 1: somewhere out there. Yeah, is that do we want that?

1938
01:59:26,520 --> 01:59:29,160
Speaker 1: Do we want these people to have a say at

1939
01:59:29,200 --> 01:59:33,520
Speaker 1: the table? I just want him to pay, Yeah, and

1940
01:59:33,560 --> 01:59:37,840
Speaker 1: I wanted to pay, but have no input. I don't

1941
01:59:37,840 --> 01:59:44,520
Speaker 1: I don't care what they think, all right, thanks, No,

1942
01:59:44,560 --> 01:59:48,640
Speaker 1: I don't want to hear about it. You don't want

1943
01:59:48,640 --> 01:59:50,320
Speaker 1: to hear about it because I know where you're going

1944
01:59:50,400 --> 01:59:52,800
Speaker 1: with this. Right, yeah, because they're gonna say, well, yeah,

1945
01:59:52,800 --> 01:59:55,160
Speaker 1: it's gonna be the New Jersey cat ladies all a

1946
01:59:55,160 --> 01:59:58,560
Speaker 1: sudden are going to actually start paying, and they're gonna say, well, no,

1947
01:59:58,760 --> 02:00:00,839
Speaker 1: I don't think you should be hunting those animals anymore.

1948
02:00:02,280 --> 02:00:04,120
Speaker 1: I had someone recently bring up that I had talked

1949
02:00:04,160 --> 02:00:10,960
Speaker 1: about New Jersey. But here's the thing I want to terrify.

1950
02:00:11,720 --> 02:00:13,880
Speaker 1: I don't know any New Jersey cat ladies. But when

1951
02:00:13,920 --> 02:00:17,520
Speaker 1: I closed my eyes and imagine the exactly when imagine, like,

1952
02:00:17,640 --> 02:00:22,960
Speaker 1: like my perspective on wildlife in America, okay, and my upbringing,

1953
02:00:23,040 --> 02:00:25,040
Speaker 1: the things that shape my perspective wildlife in America, and

1954
02:00:25,080 --> 02:00:28,280
Speaker 1: I try to visualize the opposite of my perspective on wildlife.

1955
02:00:28,360 --> 02:00:31,520
Speaker 1: I feel that it's embodied by what I imagine A

1956
02:00:31,760 --> 02:00:34,240
Speaker 1: old lady in New Jersey who owns a shipload of

1957
02:00:34,320 --> 02:00:37,360
Speaker 1: cats might think. I just pictured like that would be

1958
02:00:38,200 --> 02:00:41,200
Speaker 1: the antithesis of my own perspective, would be like a

1959
02:00:42,520 --> 02:00:46,600
Speaker 1: cat lady, yes, because she's rescued all those cats. Just somehow,

1960
02:00:46,720 --> 02:00:48,960
Speaker 1: I don't really I need to spend more time picturing her,

1961
02:00:48,960 --> 02:00:50,800
Speaker 1: because I might come up with a different thing or

1962
02:00:50,840 --> 02:00:53,400
Speaker 1: a picture in New Jersey in different way. Yeah, I

1963
02:00:53,520 --> 02:00:56,320
Speaker 1: just picture like a New Jersey cat lady being like

1964
02:00:56,480 --> 02:00:59,640
Speaker 1: my arch rival when it comes to my perspectives on

1965
02:00:59,680 --> 02:01:03,160
Speaker 1: wild management. So you know, I just stop saying it. Actually,

1966
02:01:04,280 --> 02:01:07,000
Speaker 1: I would lay out there that you know, we we

1967
02:01:07,160 --> 02:01:12,160
Speaker 1: live in a representative democracy, so the concept that that

1968
02:01:12,720 --> 02:01:14,720
Speaker 1: we can keep folks from having a seat at the

1969
02:01:14,800 --> 02:01:20,720
Speaker 1: table maybe isn't the most sustainable approach to this in

1970
02:01:20,800 --> 02:01:23,960
Speaker 1: the long term anyway. I mean, we we have to

1971
02:01:24,120 --> 02:01:29,280
Speaker 1: learn to engage other folks and you know, and come

1972
02:01:29,320 --> 02:01:32,840
Speaker 1: at some of these questions from a point of empathy. Yeah,

1973
02:01:33,000 --> 02:01:34,720
Speaker 1: because you I think you're the one that brought up

1974
02:01:34,760 --> 02:01:37,480
Speaker 1: the idea that the five percent of the population, like,

1975
02:01:37,720 --> 02:01:42,320
Speaker 1: we live in a democracy, so um, we live like

1976
02:01:42,560 --> 02:01:45,160
Speaker 1: as hunters and fishermen and just a lot of horners

1977
02:01:45,160 --> 02:01:47,440
Speaker 1: of fishermen that really want to act like this isn't true.

1978
02:01:47,960 --> 02:01:50,440
Speaker 1: But as hunters and fishermen, we live at the pleasure

1979
02:01:51,440 --> 02:01:56,960
Speaker 1: of the voting public. Who you're like, Your ability to

1980
02:01:57,080 --> 02:02:01,680
Speaker 1: live the lifestyle you live is because cause people who

1981
02:02:01,840 --> 02:02:04,600
Speaker 1: do not engage in the activities you engage in have

1982
02:02:04,800 --> 02:02:10,000
Speaker 1: a generally favorable impression of those activities. If they did not,

1983
02:02:11,200 --> 02:02:15,240
Speaker 1: you would be done. You're not gonna win the You're

1984
02:02:15,280 --> 02:02:18,080
Speaker 1: not gonna win a popular vote by just having the

1985
02:02:18,120 --> 02:02:20,480
Speaker 1: guys that hunting fish going out and casting their ballots.

1986
02:02:21,000 --> 02:02:23,400
Speaker 1: It doesn't work that way, right, You're gonna get smoked.

1987
02:02:23,440 --> 02:02:28,400
Speaker 1: You would lose all elections to five. And things in

1988
02:02:28,440 --> 02:02:34,800
Speaker 1: this country generally fall around a split is a landslide.

1989
02:02:35,920 --> 02:02:40,360
Speaker 1: Ship is tight now, right, So you need to have

1990
02:02:40,600 --> 02:02:42,600
Speaker 1: al You need a lot of what I said, I

1991
02:02:42,640 --> 02:02:44,680
Speaker 1: was joking because it's true, like you need to have

1992
02:02:45,600 --> 02:02:50,120
Speaker 1: very strong allies that lie outside of your the activities

1993
02:02:50,120 --> 02:02:54,840
Speaker 1: you engage in. Yeah, you need to live an exemplary lifestyle. Yeah,

1994
02:02:54,880 --> 02:02:58,480
Speaker 1: And and you know, we need to engage those people

1995
02:02:58,600 --> 02:03:01,840
Speaker 1: in in ways that are meaningful to them. And you know,

1996
02:03:02,280 --> 02:03:05,880
Speaker 1: that's why I really liked the episode with Greg. I mean,

1997
02:03:05,920 --> 02:03:09,240
Speaker 1: it's really what inspired me to reach out to you guys,

1998
02:03:09,720 --> 02:03:12,200
Speaker 1: you know about this topic because it's sort of seemed

1999
02:03:12,200 --> 02:03:15,280
Speaker 1: like a natural segue from you know, how how do

2000
02:03:15,400 --> 02:03:18,600
Speaker 1: we how do we talk to people? You know, what

2001
02:03:18,800 --> 02:03:22,320
Speaker 1: are those quote unquote arguments or conversations that we can

2002
02:03:22,400 --> 02:03:25,880
Speaker 1: have with people that do influence the way they view hunting,

2003
02:03:27,040 --> 02:03:30,200
Speaker 1: you know, and and then the next step is, you know,

2004
02:03:30,320 --> 02:03:32,200
Speaker 1: how how do we be more informed about some of

2005
02:03:32,280 --> 02:03:34,960
Speaker 1: these things, particularly that you know, he laid out five

2006
02:03:35,080 --> 02:03:39,080
Speaker 1: or six arguments, right and funding was one of them,

2007
02:03:39,160 --> 02:03:41,160
Speaker 1: or the revenue side of things was was one of

2008
02:03:41,200 --> 02:03:44,480
Speaker 1: those arguments. And you know, how do we how do

2009
02:03:44,560 --> 02:03:46,240
Speaker 1: we take that the next step? How do we be

2010
02:03:46,320 --> 02:03:48,600
Speaker 1: informed when some when we say yeah, the revenue and

2011
02:03:48,720 --> 02:03:51,920
Speaker 1: somebody comes back and says, yeah, but the revenue all

2012
02:03:51,960 --> 02:03:54,360
Speaker 1: gets spent on things that you can catch and shoot.

2013
02:03:55,280 --> 02:03:58,200
Speaker 1: You know, what might refer into is what number is.

2014
02:03:58,240 --> 02:04:00,560
Speaker 1: But if you go back. We had a podcast episode

2015
02:04:00,640 --> 02:04:03,320
Speaker 1: some time ago where we interviewed a guy, Greg Blaskovitch,

2016
02:04:03,360 --> 02:04:06,880
Speaker 1: who's a social sciences researcher at Stanford, and what he

2017
02:04:07,000 --> 02:04:11,680
Speaker 1: was doing is he was testing UM. He was he

2018
02:04:11,880 --> 02:04:16,480
Speaker 1: was working with people who had a general like anti

2019
02:04:16,760 --> 02:04:21,600
Speaker 1: like an identifiable anti hunting bent and he would test ideas.

2020
02:04:23,320 --> 02:04:28,760
Speaker 1: UM would test justifications of hunting with these individuals Episode

2021
02:04:28,800 --> 02:04:30,960
Speaker 1: fifty three where they would go to people and here's

2022
02:04:30,960 --> 02:04:34,120
Speaker 1: the person who's like identifies as an anti hunter and

2023
02:04:34,240 --> 02:04:37,320
Speaker 1: then they would test ideas and say like, okay, well

2024
02:04:37,440 --> 02:04:39,840
Speaker 1: what about if you knew this, how does this change

2025
02:04:39,880 --> 02:04:42,720
Speaker 1: your perception of honey? And to look at what are

2026
02:04:42,800 --> 02:04:47,800
Speaker 1: the the realities and rhetorics that hunters use and which

2027
02:04:47,840 --> 02:04:51,560
Speaker 1: of those are effective, which of those moves the needle. Um,

2028
02:04:51,680 --> 02:04:53,320
Speaker 1: So we've been referring to that a lot. You can

2029
02:04:53,440 --> 02:04:56,320
Speaker 1: you can go back and check that out. Jum Dorney

2030
02:04:56,320 --> 02:04:59,720
Speaker 1: got anything want to wrap up with? Man? Um? What

2031
02:05:00,120 --> 02:05:04,480
Speaker 1: sports teams on your hat there? It's the Mariners Mariners

2032
02:05:04,560 --> 02:05:10,440
Speaker 1: baseball Club. Yeah, we got any reluding thoughts? Well, Um,

2033
02:05:10,720 --> 02:05:12,760
Speaker 1: it's been good to learn to sum out how our

2034
02:05:12,800 --> 02:05:15,760
Speaker 1: tax dollars are utilized. And I appreciate the knowledge and

2035
02:05:16,000 --> 02:05:18,320
Speaker 1: guys like Mike that are making it happen on the ground.

2036
02:05:18,360 --> 02:05:21,720
Speaker 1: It's it's it's interesting, it's good to hear, and and

2037
02:05:21,880 --> 02:05:24,880
Speaker 1: now I walk away feeling good about it. As opposed

2038
02:05:24,920 --> 02:05:27,840
Speaker 1: to generally with my tax money, I feel like most

2039
02:05:27,880 --> 02:05:29,320
Speaker 1: of the time it's being flushed on the shitter, and

2040
02:05:29,400 --> 02:05:34,800
Speaker 1: I don't get that oppression put a fine point on it.

2041
02:05:34,920 --> 02:05:38,640
Speaker 1: I don't get that feeling. Um. And I appreciate that,

2042
02:05:38,720 --> 02:05:40,280
Speaker 1: I really do. And I appreciate the hard work that

2043
02:05:40,320 --> 02:05:42,000
Speaker 1: people put in to make sure that we do have

2044
02:05:42,120 --> 02:05:44,640
Speaker 1: these opportunities in our future and hopefully down the road

2045
02:05:44,720 --> 02:05:48,440
Speaker 1: kids features and maybe try and leave the place better

2046
02:05:48,480 --> 02:05:50,680
Speaker 1: than we found it, and guys like you, I think

2047
02:05:50,680 --> 02:05:55,080
Speaker 1: are making that happen, and I'm grateful. Um. Other than that,

2048
02:05:55,200 --> 02:05:56,960
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try and get you to stop harping on

2049
02:05:57,080 --> 02:06:00,240
Speaker 1: New Jersey because let me come up with a new

2050
02:06:00,520 --> 02:06:04,280
Speaker 1: I would come up with a new new arch nemesis

2051
02:06:04,480 --> 02:06:07,080
Speaker 1: right on, right on. It's going to be again. I'm

2052
02:06:07,400 --> 02:06:09,560
Speaker 1: glad to be here. So good listen. I generally learned

2053
02:06:09,560 --> 02:06:12,240
Speaker 1: something when I sit around this table. So good stuff.

2054
02:06:12,320 --> 02:06:13,880
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, man, thanks for having me. I

2055
02:06:13,880 --> 02:06:18,800
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Did you finish with all the reasons you

2056
02:06:18,840 --> 02:06:21,120
Speaker 1: had to manage for non game species? Do you feel

2057
02:06:21,120 --> 02:06:22,920
Speaker 1: like you wrapped up that point? Yeah? I think I

2058
02:06:23,000 --> 02:06:26,480
Speaker 1: think about six reasons there. You know, he didn't got

2059
02:06:26,520 --> 02:06:31,040
Speaker 1: to all of them. That was good interruptions in there,

2060
02:06:31,120 --> 02:06:34,840
Speaker 1: but we got there. That's par for the course. And

2061
02:06:34,960 --> 02:06:39,800
Speaker 1: might any last oh sorry you got no, that was it? Um,

2062
02:06:40,120 --> 02:06:42,600
Speaker 1: the last final thing you forgot to mention? Well? Yeah,

2063
02:06:42,680 --> 02:06:45,120
Speaker 1: you know, I just in in this line of of

2064
02:06:46,360 --> 02:06:50,320
Speaker 1: of thinking about engaging people who aren't hunters and anglers,

2065
02:06:50,560 --> 02:06:53,839
Speaker 1: I came across a Wallace Stegner quote. And I love Stegner,

2066
02:06:54,480 --> 02:06:56,640
Speaker 1: you know, just as far as being somebody who talked

2067
02:06:56,680 --> 02:06:59,720
Speaker 1: a lot about arid land and and managing arid land.

2068
02:07:00,200 --> 02:07:03,440
Speaker 1: You know, Stegner Stigner said in this a little bit

2069
02:07:03,480 --> 02:07:07,080
Speaker 1: of a paraphrase that wild places, and I think I

2070
02:07:07,080 --> 02:07:09,840
Speaker 1: would add to that wild things are part of the

2071
02:07:09,920 --> 02:07:16,040
Speaker 1: geography of hope. And you know, when I think about that,

2072
02:07:16,120 --> 02:07:19,280
Speaker 1: I think Steigna really had something there. You know that

2073
02:07:20,200 --> 02:07:26,120
Speaker 1: that we really as people draw hope from wild things

2074
02:07:26,200 --> 02:07:31,360
Speaker 1: and wild places. And you know, my personal history is

2075
02:07:31,800 --> 02:07:34,680
Speaker 1: that my experience with wild things and wild places come

2076
02:07:35,320 --> 02:07:37,880
Speaker 1: from a perspective, you know, of of hunting and fishing.

2077
02:07:37,960 --> 02:07:39,879
Speaker 1: That's how I grew up, That's how I got engaged.

2078
02:07:40,400 --> 02:07:44,520
Speaker 1: But you know, there are other people out there that

2079
02:07:44,920 --> 02:07:48,480
Speaker 1: came to wild things and wild places in different ways,

2080
02:07:49,120 --> 02:07:54,240
Speaker 1: but that I believe probably experience a really similar emotional

2081
02:07:54,360 --> 02:07:58,000
Speaker 1: connection to And I think it's good to think about,

2082
02:07:58,680 --> 02:08:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, how pep will perceive us and we perceive them.

2083
02:08:04,160 --> 02:08:07,040
Speaker 1: You know, I generally tend to have an emotional response

2084
02:08:07,080 --> 02:08:09,879
Speaker 1: when I hear anything that I believe to sound threatening

2085
02:08:10,160 --> 02:08:14,120
Speaker 1: to hunting. Yeah, but I bet you there are people

2086
02:08:14,600 --> 02:08:18,280
Speaker 1: who don't hunt, you know who when they hear about hunting,

2087
02:08:18,680 --> 02:08:21,520
Speaker 1: they perceive that as taking something out of the wild

2088
02:08:22,120 --> 02:08:25,200
Speaker 1: and that that is a threat to how you know,

2089
02:08:25,560 --> 02:08:29,200
Speaker 1: they have come to the experience and and you know,

2090
02:08:30,040 --> 02:08:33,040
Speaker 1: coming back to that, you know that it's that there's

2091
02:08:33,160 --> 02:08:36,200
Speaker 1: hope in you know that we we place hope and

2092
02:08:36,320 --> 02:08:39,280
Speaker 1: wild things in wild places, and so anything that we

2093
02:08:39,360 --> 02:08:43,440
Speaker 1: feel like diminishes that for us really draws an emotional response.

2094
02:08:43,520 --> 02:08:47,120
Speaker 1: And so you know, I think that really trying to

2095
02:08:47,360 --> 02:08:50,960
Speaker 1: work to be more inclusive about you know, how we

2096
02:08:51,040 --> 02:08:54,360
Speaker 1: talk about this stuff, having engaging conversations sometimes that are

2097
02:08:54,440 --> 02:08:57,680
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with people that don't agree with us, is you know,

2098
02:08:58,720 --> 02:09:02,720
Speaker 1: is uh is really an important thing. And you know

2099
02:09:02,760 --> 02:09:07,240
Speaker 1: again that Stegner quote, wild places you know are part

2100
02:09:07,320 --> 02:09:10,920
Speaker 1: of the geography of hope. A lesser known author added

2101
02:09:10,960 --> 02:09:13,440
Speaker 1: to that. And what inspires hope from person to person

2102
02:09:13,760 --> 02:09:17,000
Speaker 1: is a similar as views from neighboring ridges, but also

2103
02:09:17,080 --> 02:09:22,320
Speaker 1: it's different. And I think that you know, really speaks

2104
02:09:22,400 --> 02:09:26,879
Speaker 1: to thinking about, you know, how we experienced wild places

2105
02:09:27,840 --> 02:09:31,640
Speaker 1: and how others experienced it and trying to find common ground. Yeah,

2106
02:09:32,680 --> 02:09:38,920
Speaker 1: I'll work on that joker that that that means they're

2107
02:09:38,960 --> 02:09:42,200
Speaker 1: buddy there at the top of the hill, the horse,

2108
02:09:42,440 --> 02:09:45,440
Speaker 1: the horse cut would you call him? Are the um,

2109
02:09:46,480 --> 02:09:50,920
Speaker 1: timber buck hunter. He shouldn't get so mad at the

2110
02:09:51,000 --> 02:09:54,840
Speaker 1: hippies when they're out there hiking. No, he hates the hippies. Yeah,

2111
02:09:55,520 --> 02:10:00,720
Speaker 1: we're gonna eat hippies, the backpack hunters, the horror. Yeah,

2112
02:10:00,880 --> 02:10:02,640
Speaker 1: weather was nice, so there's a lot of people in

2113
02:10:02,720 --> 02:10:04,920
Speaker 1: the woods during his haunts. This is a horseman who

2114
02:10:05,000 --> 02:10:07,280
Speaker 1: did not have pleasant feelings for the other people on

2115
02:10:07,360 --> 02:10:15,120
Speaker 1: the mountain, you know. But yeah, all right, there are allies, right,

2116
02:10:17,440 --> 02:10:22,480
Speaker 1: I'm open to it. I'm open to it. Um, Mike,

2117
02:10:22,560 --> 02:10:25,440
Speaker 1: thanks for coming on, man, thanks for having me. You

2118
02:10:25,560 --> 02:10:29,440
Speaker 1: come back sometime, I hope. So all right, Um, let's

2119
02:10:29,440 --> 02:10:31,560
Speaker 1: talk about big horn sheep now in New Mexico next

2120
02:10:31,600 --> 02:10:33,680
Speaker 1: time you come. Yeah, my wife's a big horn sheep

2121
02:10:33,680 --> 02:10:38,040
Speaker 1: by allies, understand, and also an avid hunter. So that right, Yeah,

2122
02:10:38,080 --> 02:10:41,960
Speaker 1: you guys should talk to her big horns. She's got

2123
02:10:42,000 --> 02:10:44,560
Speaker 1: all the information about big horn sheep. I was down

2124
02:10:44,640 --> 02:10:47,040
Speaker 1: in your state. I was down in New Mexico, um,

2125
02:10:47,720 --> 02:10:51,200
Speaker 1: where they were doing the governor's tag auctions, and a

2126
02:10:51,280 --> 02:10:54,440
Speaker 1: guy from the Desert Sheep of Desert Sheep Foundation or

2127
02:10:54,480 --> 02:10:58,080
Speaker 1: some kind or someone having to do a sheep uh

2128
02:10:58,480 --> 02:11:02,680
Speaker 1: ngo that does sheep work he was saying that h

2129
02:11:04,200 --> 02:11:10,640
Speaker 1: in New Mexico, wildlife work comes down to water and money.

2130
02:11:12,080 --> 02:11:14,000
Speaker 1: But with desert big horns, you don't need the water,

2131
02:11:16,600 --> 02:11:19,920
Speaker 1: so I thought was an interesting take on that. All right,

2132
02:11:20,320 --> 02:11:21,040
Speaker 1: thanks for tuning in.