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Speaker 1: Pushkin. If you're a fan of the Happiness Lab, you've

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Speaker 1: surely heard about the powerful benefits of social connection as

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Speaker 1: well as the dangers of its opposite, loneliness.

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Speaker 2: Loneliness is strongly associated with an increased risk of heart

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Speaker 2: disease and dementia, and depression and anxiety.

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Speaker 1: This is doctor Vivigmerty. Back in twenty twenty three, when

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Speaker 1: he was Surgeon General, he famously issued a landmark public

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Speaker 1: advisory to sound the alarm about the negative effects of loneliness.

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Speaker 1: Vivic joined us on the show a few years ago

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Speaker 1: for an episode about the dangers of isolation. During that conversation,

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Speaker 1: he referred to our country's lack of social connection as

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Speaker 1: an epidemic, one that he argued was deadly.

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Speaker 2: And if you looked at the degree of life shortening,

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Speaker 2: it appeared similar to the immortality impact of sloping fifteen

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Speaker 2: cigarettes to day and greater than the mortality impact of obesity.

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Speaker 1: Vivik also told us that the health problems associated with

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Speaker 1: loneliness were growing. One recent report by the World Health

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Speaker 1: Organization found that one in six people worldwide is affected

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Speaker 1: by loneliness, and Vivig found that rates of loneliness in

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Speaker 1: our own country can be as high as twenty two percent.

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Speaker 2: And just to put this in context, twenty two percent

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Speaker 2: of adults in the United States is more than the

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Speaker 2: percentage of adults who smokes cigarettes. It's more than percentage

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Speaker 2: of adults who have diabetes, So this is exceedingly common.

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Speaker 1: It's no surprise then, that news reports these days are

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Speaker 1: brimming with scary stories about the terrifying costs of the

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Speaker 1: loneliness crisis. I mean, the World Health Organization has argued

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Speaker 1: that loneliness is linked to an estimated one hundred deaths

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Speaker 1: every hour. Scary stuff, right, Well, that's why this week's

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Speaker 1: Happiness hot take is bound to be a very, very

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Speaker 1: fiery one, because today's happiness hot take is this, Lately,

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Speaker 1: I've been starting to think think that all this talk

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Speaker 1: about the dangers of loneliness might be a little overblown,

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Speaker 1: or at the very least counterproductive in ways that our

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Speaker 1: lying minds don't realize. Today's happiness hot take is that

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Speaker 1: we desperately need to change how we think about and

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Speaker 1: how we talk about loneliness, because the science shows that

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Speaker 1: there are lots of unexpected benefits that can come from

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Speaker 1: a little more alone time. Our minds are constantly telling

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Speaker 1: us what to do to be happy. But what if

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Speaker 1: our minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying

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Speaker 1: to us, leading us away from what will really make

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Speaker 1: us happy. The good news is that understanding the science

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Speaker 1: of the mind can boind us all back in the

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Speaker 1: right direction. You're listening to the Happiness Lab with doctor

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Speaker 1: Laurie Santos. When you think about loneliness, what comes to mind?

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Speaker 3: I was studying happy TOSTV work and there were lots

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Speaker 3: of ntating geese outside my bedroom window and they did

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Speaker 3: that honking noise which still fills me with dread.

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Speaker 1: For doctor Faye bound Alberti, a historian at King's College

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Speaker 1: in London, loneliness conjures up the sounds she remembers hearing

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Speaker 1: when going through a rough breakup as a college student.

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Speaker 3: And it made me feel a very kind of profound

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Speaker 3: and physical sense of loneliness that linked to other times

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Speaker 3: I've heard those geese and the sort of the isolation

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Speaker 3: attached to that.

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Speaker 1: Fay is the author of a biography of loneliness, The

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Speaker 1: History of an Emotion.

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Speaker 3: I'm also a historian of medicine emotion in the body,

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Speaker 3: and I write about feeling between the classical period in

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Speaker 3: the present day.

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Speaker 1: I came across phase work one day when I was

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Speaker 1: scrolling through social media and saw her tweet asking what

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Speaker 1: loneliness sounds like, and.

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Speaker 3: The responses were really interesting. Some people said, when they

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Speaker 3: were alone in their flash at night and they hear

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Speaker 3: that click click noise when the radiations start to tend

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Speaker 3: themselves off. Some people talked about hearing the whistling down

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Speaker 3: the chimney when they were alone in their Some people

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Speaker 3: found the sort of morning bird call, the twittering of

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Speaker 3: the birds in the morning isolating, because it reminded them

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Speaker 3: that yet in the day they were waking up alone.

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Speaker 3: Other people said, oh, when they're walking past a pub

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Speaker 3: or a bar and you can hear people chatting inside,

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Speaker 3: and often you get that blast of warmth, don't you

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Speaker 3: at the same time as you walk past, And that's

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Speaker 3: another kind of sensorial feeling, and all of which is like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I don't have that, And so those are the kinds

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Speaker 3: of things. It was wanting to open up a conversation

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Speaker 3: about physical experiences of loneliness.

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Speaker 1: I love you sharing the pub example, because it feels

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Speaker 1: so desceral to me. I spent a year in the

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Speaker 1: UK in grad school in Bristol, when I didn't really

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Speaker 1: know anybody, and I had that exact experience, like walking

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Speaker 1: by the pubs and you hear the sort of din

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Speaker 1: of chatter and you just feel this deep sense of

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Speaker 1: not having social connection with yourself. It's so sad, not

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Speaker 1: just the sound, but also for me, I have the smell,

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Speaker 1: like when you're walking by and you get this blast

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Speaker 1: of sort of old beer smell, that like you could

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Speaker 1: be in there with those people, but you're not, and

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Speaker 1: you just kind of feel so by yourself.

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Speaker 3: It's really interesting, isn't it. I think does nothing like

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Speaker 3: other people's relax sociability to make you think, oh, I

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Speaker 3: miss that. Loneliness is very much part of the body

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Speaker 3: as well as the mind, and I think that about

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Speaker 3: all our emotions. And one of the things that I

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Speaker 3: know as a history of emotion is that with the

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Speaker 3: rise of the scientific medicine, we separated our mind and body.

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Speaker 3: It was also seen as a physical thing before the

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Speaker 3: rise of scientific medicine. It made the body of machine

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Speaker 3: that produces and the mind this kind of complex organ

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Speaker 3: which is reduced to brain. And we tend to think

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Speaker 3: of emotions like loneliness as being cognitive processes, but they're

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Speaker 3: very felt. We feel them in the body. Those in

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Speaker 3: terms of our emotional reactions, but also in terms of

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Speaker 3: our memories, the ways in which memories of experience get

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Speaker 3: locked into the body.

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Speaker 1: In order to understand what we might be getting wrong

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Speaker 1: about the loneliness crisis, I wanted to better understand where

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Speaker 1: this feeling comes from in the first place. And that's

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Speaker 1: why I was so excited to have Faye join me

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Speaker 1: for this episode. Because fins take on the historical origins

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Speaker 1: of loneliness differs from that of a lot lot of

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Speaker 1: the academics I hang out with. You see, my colleagues

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Speaker 1: have long assumed that loneliness is a product of biology,

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Speaker 1: an emotion that has been shaped over generations by natural selection.

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Speaker 1: Humans are, of course, social primates. We rely on one

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Speaker 1: another for survival. Loneliness can therefore be thought of as

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Speaker 1: an evolutionary signal, one that's built to help us avoid

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Speaker 1: the dangers of isolation. Loneliness is there to alert us

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Speaker 1: that we need to return to the safety of the tribe.

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Speaker 1: Under this view, one would predict that our species has

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Speaker 1: been experiencing this yucky feeling for a long time. But

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Speaker 1: Fay argues that that's not the case. Her historical analysis

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Speaker 1: has found that loneliness, at least as we think of

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Speaker 1: it today, didn't really exist before the nineteenth century.

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Speaker 3: I think often people think about the history of emotions

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Speaker 3: as being people felt the same, just the landscapes were different,

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Speaker 3: but the emotions themselves were changed by the landscapes.

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Speaker 1: And Fay says that being lonely before the Industrial Revolution

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Speaker 1: meant something entirely different than it does today. Loneliness was

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Speaker 1: used interchangeably warnliness, and it just meant being alone. It

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Speaker 1: just meant being solitude. There wasn't anything like the emotional

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Speaker 1: weight that it has today. So when Wordsworth talked about

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Speaker 1: wondering lonely as a cloud, he just meant he was alone.

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Speaker 1: At that point, you could be warmly or you could

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Speaker 1: be lonely, but you would not have that sort of

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Speaker 1: sense of emotional loss and lack that we have today.

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Speaker 1: I find this so striking. The ache that I got

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Speaker 1: walking by a crowded pub back in grad school, or

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Speaker 1: that sense of invisibility that newly rejected Fay felt listening

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Speaker 1: to those geese. They says that people didn't really experience

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Speaker 1: that feeling for most of human history.

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Speaker 3: If you imagine in the early modern period, when God

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Speaker 3: is always there, you're never actually alone. If we are

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Speaker 3: aware of something bigger than ourselves, we are less likely

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Speaker 3: to feel lonely. And so it's only when you have

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Speaker 3: the decline of religion as the only explanation for why

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Speaker 3: we're in the world, and the rise of urbanization and

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Speaker 3: economic individualism. All of these kind of transformations make us

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Speaker 3: into smaller parts, and they don't give us that kind

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Speaker 3: of sense of the collective or collective identity. So round

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Speaker 3: about eighteen hundred you do get more and more people

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Speaker 3: talking about loneliness. People aren't any longer feeling that they

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Speaker 3: are enough on themselves with themselves. We've got the rise

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Speaker 3: of the individual, the decline of the collective. So those

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Speaker 3: are the broad patterns I think that affect our emotional state.

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Speaker 1: Fay points to two famous stories of isolation that nicely

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Speaker 1: illustrate the different emotional reactions that people had to solitude

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Speaker 1: before and after this rise of the individual. Story Number one,

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Speaker 1: the old school version of solitude, is from Robinson Crusoe,

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Speaker 1: the famous novel by Daniel Defoe published in seventeen nineteen,

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Speaker 1: in which the main character is shipwrecked on a remote

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Speaker 1: island for twenty eight years. Story number two. The more

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Speaker 1: modern notion of solitude is from Castaway, the award winning

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Speaker 1: movie released back in two thousand, in which the actor

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Speaker 1: Tom Hanks survives a plane crash and spends four years

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Speaker 1: struggling to survive on a deserted island.

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Speaker 3: So robis and Cristo when he's kind of cast adrift,

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Speaker 3: it follows the convention of being this sort of pestling,

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Speaker 3: this spiritual journey, this notion of being in isolation or

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Speaker 3: solitude as a way of understanding oneself better. And if

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Speaker 3: you compare that to Castaway, it's very much about the

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Speaker 3: loss of other people and how do we cope. And

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Speaker 3: for me, that's such a sort of fantastic transition in

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Speaker 3: what's happened across the period that I'm talking about. We

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Speaker 3: are not alone with God anymore. We are alone with ourselves,

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Speaker 3: which for many people is quite terrifying, because what do

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Speaker 3: we do when we look inward?

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Speaker 1: Psychologists have been looking at what happens when modern people

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Speaker 1: get stuck alone and have to look inwards, and it's

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Speaker 1: not pretty. Take one famous study by psychologists Matt Killingsworth

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Speaker 1: and Timothy Wilson. They brought subjects into the lab and

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Speaker 1: asked them to sit alone in a room without distractions

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Speaker 1: for fifteen minutes. No cell phones or internet access, not

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Speaker 1: even a pennrot paper. The one thing subjects did have

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Speaker 1: access to was a machine that gave out a mild

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Speaker 1: electric shark. Participants were not told to shock themselves, but

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Speaker 1: when faced with the boredom of actually sitting alone with

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Speaker 1: their own thoughts for fifteen minutes, twenty five percent of

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Speaker 1: women and sixty seven percent of men voluntarily chose to

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Speaker 1: shock themselves. They thinks that part of our version to

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Speaker 1: sitting alone with our thoughts in the modern day comes

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Speaker 1: from how we talk about what it means to be alone.

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Speaker 3: We have this language of loneliness, which is global. Now

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Speaker 3: we talk about it as an epidemic. So we have

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Speaker 3: produced this medicalized, problematic notion of loneliness as something bad.

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Speaker 3: And what happens is that people think, oh, that must

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Speaker 3: be what I'm feeling, and I think that that also

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Speaker 3: increases loneliness. If we say that loneliness is one thing

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Speaker 3: that's inevitable, we medicalize it, so it's like a disease

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Speaker 3: that comes from outside, not a product of how we live.

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Speaker 3: Then what we're doing is we're massively over simplifying.

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Speaker 1: This is phase big concern with the idea of a

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Speaker 1: quote loneliness epidemic. It makes loneliness sound like one single

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Speaker 1: conditioning you either have or don't have, when in reality,

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Speaker 1: they argue, loneliness is much more complicated than that.

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Speaker 3: I talk about loneliness really as a cluster of different emotions,

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Speaker 3: because it's not a single emotion. It's a peculiar state

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Speaker 3: that might be composed of grief and sadness, it might

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Speaker 3: be composed of resentment or anger. And so the particular

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Speaker 3: emotions that make up loneliness depend on where we are

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Speaker 3: in our lives. There are pinch points where we might,

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Speaker 3: for instance, get married, get widow, get divorced, or even

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Speaker 3: be a teenager going to have to college, and we

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Speaker 3: feel some sort of transitory sense of loneliness which is

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Speaker 3: in relation to our circumstance and actually a very positive

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Speaker 3: thing because it means we're ready for the next stage

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Speaker 3: and what do we want. And that's different to the

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Speaker 3: kind of chronic loneliness that can settle in when people

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Speaker 3: aren't able to connect and maybe they're disadvantaged by health

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Speaker 3: or economics or geography. Those sort of nuances I think

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Speaker 3: are very very important. Otherwise we start thinking that a

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Speaker 3: who's just lost her husband of thirty years is going

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Speaker 3: to be feeling exactly the same kind of loneliness as

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Speaker 3: a teenage boy who is online all at the time,

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Speaker 3: but asn't our friends. I mean, it just seems to

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Speaker 3: be obvious and these are not the same emotions, so

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Speaker 3: we can't have a one size fits all approach. I

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Speaker 3: think that a lot of the emotional experiences we have

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Speaker 3: are opportunities for growth and development. If your psyche and

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Speaker 3: body is saying something is missing, it's an opportunity. If

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Speaker 3: we treat it all us a bad thing, what we're

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Speaker 3: doing is closing down the opportunity for growth. We're closing

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Speaker 3: down the opportunity of connection, and we're really taking away

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Speaker 3: what are the different complex kinds of emotions they're going

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Speaker 3: towards this state. We need to really drill down into

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Speaker 3: that because it's so subjective, so our interventions need to

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Speaker 3: be tailored.

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Speaker 1: When we get back from the break, we'll meet a

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Speaker 1: psychologist who's trying to follow phase advice, someone who's trying

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Speaker 1: to drill down into the language we use to talk

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Speaker 1: about loneliness so that we can fight this feeling more effectively.

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Speaker 1: She'll break down what we get wrong about loneliness and

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Speaker 1: what we can do better when the happiness Lab returns.

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Speaker 4: In a moment, when I first started studying this topic,

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Speaker 4: I actually really struggle to be alone. I had this

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Speaker 4: perception that being alone is loneliness. You know, I had

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Speaker 4: never considered that these two are separate things. One moment

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Speaker 4: that really comes to mind is in college, I had

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Speaker 4: sort of a lunch plan. It fell through, and I thought, Okay, well,

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Speaker 4: I guess I'll just go to the dining hall and

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Speaker 4: eat by myself.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 4: I walked in the dining hall and I realized that

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Speaker 4: pretty much everybody was chatting with others. I remember feeling

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Speaker 4: in my body pretty anxious, like, oh my gosh, I

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Speaker 4: have to sit by myself, and how are other people

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Speaker 4: going to perceive me?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: This is Mikaela Rodriguez, a new colleague of mine in

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Speaker 1: the psychology department at Yale and an academic expert on

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Speaker 1: what we tend to get wrong when it comes to loneliness.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's a little embarrassing to say, but I

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Speaker 4: did worry are other people going to think that I'm

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Speaker 4: weird that I have no friends. And so anyway, I

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Speaker 4: found a spot in the very back of the dining

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Speaker 4: hall that was a little bit more sort of secluded

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Speaker 4: where other people wouldn't really see me, and I ate

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Speaker 4: my lunch, but just sort of felt kind of awkward

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Speaker 4: the whole time.

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Speaker 1: Mikhaela's interest in the psychological effects of loneliness began back

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Speaker 1: when she was a college student.

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Speaker 4: This is really I think common, especially in that age, right,

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Speaker 4: and often on social media, seeing that other people at

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Speaker 4: least seem to be having these really rich social lives

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Speaker 4: and traveling and going to parties. It feels like there's

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Speaker 4: this expectation that we also need to be very social,

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Speaker 4: and that if we're not, that there's something wrong with us,

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Speaker 4: that we're doing something wrong. I think there is this

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Speaker 4: understanding that, well, if you have, for example, depression or

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Speaker 4: an anxiety disorder, it's not necessarily that there's something wrong

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Speaker 4: with you, right, It might be something's going on in

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Speaker 4: your brain, there's this chemical imbalance, as people say, right,

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Speaker 4: there's other genetic, environmental factors. But I do think that

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Speaker 4: when it comes to loneliness, there still is this perception

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Speaker 4: that if you're lonely, it's something about you. You know,

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Speaker 4: you're not able maybe to make those connections. You're not

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Speaker 4: socially skilled enough, And so it does feel like there's

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Speaker 4: an extra level of sort of shame that's attached to

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Speaker 4: loneliness that maybe we're not seeing anymore with these other

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Speaker 4: sort of mental health, negative sort of emotional.

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Speaker 1: Experiences, and studies have shown that the stigma associated with

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Speaker 1: loneliness can have big consequences for people who happen to

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Speaker 1: be a bit solitary by nature.

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Speaker 4: When American adults are told about a hypothetical person who

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Speaker 4: likes to spend their time alone, those people rate that

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Speaker 4: person as less desirable, as a friend, less attractive, less competent.

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Speaker 4: We make these sort of negative evaluations and negative assumptions

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Speaker 4: about that person.

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Speaker 1: And MICHAELA says that these negative assumptions have only gotten

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Speaker 1: worse in the last few years.

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Speaker 4: There are so many articles I feel like I see

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Speaker 4: one every single day on the dangers of loneliness. But

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Speaker 4: even in sociology, philosophy, public health, these related fields, we

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Speaker 4: see that the vast majority of research on these topics

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Speaker 4: is looking at sort of the dangers of being alone

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Speaker 4: and the serious risks associated with loneliness, and I recognize

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Speaker 4: that you know, these messages are intended to be helpful

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Speaker 4: and to encourage people to go out and seek social connection,

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Speaker 4: which course, as we know, is very important. At the

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Speaker 4: same time, a few years ago, I sort of wondered

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Speaker 4: whether these messages that we're receiving might have unintended negative consequences,

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Speaker 4: Might they be counterproductive.

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Speaker 1: Mikaela decided to test this directly. She had subjects read

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Speaker 1: a news article that either discuss the risks of being alone,

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Speaker 1: like most news articles do these days, or one that

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Speaker 1: talked about the benefits of alone time. She found that

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Speaker 1: the simple apt to reading one article about the downside

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Speaker 1: of solitude changed subjects beliefs about the dangers of being alone.

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Speaker 1: The participants who read the negative news article assume that

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Speaker 1: being alone would feel less enjoyable, that it would make

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Speaker 1: you less hopeful, and that overall you'd be less healthy.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so makes sense, right. The information that we get

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Speaker 4: from the media, we know influences our beliefs, But how

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Speaker 4: did these beliefs that we hold about being alone actually

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Speaker 4: influence our day to day experiences.

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Speaker 1: To test this, Michaela recruited a different group of subjects.

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Speaker 1: She first surveyed their beliefs about alone time, and then

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Speaker 1: divided her subjects into two groups, those who had positive

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Speaker 1: beliefs about alone time and those who thought more negatively

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Speaker 1: about solitude. She then used a procedure known as experience sampling,

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Speaker 1: in which researchers pink people at random times of the

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Speaker 1: day and ask how they're feeling to test what happened

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Speaker 1: when the two different groups of subjects got stuck in

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Speaker 1: short moments of solo time.

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Speaker 4: People who believe that being alone is bad, right, that

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Speaker 4: it's inherently lonely, that it's harmful for their well being.

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Speaker 4: Whenever they were alone in their daily lives LORI, they

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Speaker 4: felt significantly lonelier, more anxious, more stressed, more bored They

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Speaker 4: felt worse right. Interestingly, though, when we look at people

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Speaker 4: who view being alone as a positive experience, we see

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Speaker 4: the opposite. We see that when they spend time alone,

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Speaker 4: they actually experience a decrease in loneliness and a decrease

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Speaker 4: in stress, and a decrease in anxiety and boredom. Not

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Speaker 4: only that, they also experienced increases in positive emotions like

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Speaker 4: contentment and relaxation.

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Speaker 1: These findings are pretty incredible. How we think being alone

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Speaker 1: is supposed to feel influences how being alone actually feels

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Speaker 1: in the moment, and Mikaela has observed this striking effect

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Speaker 1: again and again. Take for example, her recent study exploring

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Speaker 1: cross cultural differences in people's perceptions of loneliness.

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Speaker 4: We recruited participants from nine countries, and this was spanning

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Speaker 4: six continents an except Antarctica. Really hard to find people

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Speaker 4: there to take our studies, so almost every continent, i

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Speaker 4: will say, And so we had for example, Japan, Mexico, Brazil, Poland,

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Speaker 4: South Africa, couple others, and essentially we wanted to know

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Speaker 4: how adults in these different countries view being alone, to

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Speaker 4: what extent do they think being alone is positive or negative, right,

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Speaker 4: beneficial or harmful. We see that in countries like the US,

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Speaker 4: the UK, Poland in other words, countries that are more individualistic,

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Speaker 4: people view being alone as more negative, as more unhealthy,

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Speaker 4: whereas people in Japan and Mexico, two very different countries

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Speaker 4: but both we would consider collectivistic countries viewed being alone

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Speaker 4: as significantly more positive and healthier.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the hypotheses for why collectivist culture

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Speaker 1: is value solitude?

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Speaker 4: For one of the things we know about more collective

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Speaker 4: cultures is that people view the self as more interdependent.

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Speaker 4: So what I mean is that people view themselves as

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Speaker 4: an individual as intertwined with their family members, their friends,

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Speaker 4: their community. In other words, who I am is linked

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Speaker 4: to who you know, my friends and family are. And

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Speaker 4: so I think that actually changes what being alone means, right,

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Speaker 4: Because when I'm physically alone, yes, I'm by myself. But

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Speaker 4: if I have this sense that my identity is always

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Speaker 4: tied to my loved ones, then maybe that aloneness is

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Speaker 4: actually less threatening because even though I'm physically by myself,

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Speaker 4: I'm carrying my mom, right, I'm carrying my dad, I'm

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Speaker 4: carrying my two little sisters with me all the time.

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Speaker 4: I'm carrying these sources of meaning with me wherever I go.

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Speaker 4: Whereas in more individualistic cultures, we know that the self

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Speaker 4: is really viewed as a DiscT entity that is not

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Speaker 4: connected really to anybody else. Right, We're unique, We're our

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Speaker 4: own person.

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Speaker 3: I will not.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's not that that's inherently better or worse.

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Speaker 4: These are just sort of different ways of viewing oneself.

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Speaker 4: But if we do see the self as independent and

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Speaker 4: not linked to other people, then I think when we're alone,

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Speaker 4: we really are sort of disconnected, right, and so I

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Speaker 4: think there could be this sort of protective effect of

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Speaker 4: having this more interdependent view of the self.

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Speaker 1: Mikaela's work seems to be bearing out what historian Fay

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Speaker 1: Bound Alberti said earlier that how a culture thinks being

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Speaker 1: alone is supposed to feel influences how being alone actually feels.

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Speaker 1: In this and so many other studies, Mikaela has found

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Speaker 1: that if you believe alone time is going to suck,

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Speaker 1: then you're alone time will feel luckier and lonelier. And

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Speaker 1: that is a very worrying conclusion, especially for someone who

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Speaker 1: hosts a podcast that talks a lot about social connection.

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Speaker 1: So much of our modern public health messaging tries to

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Speaker 1: teach people about the negative effects of loneliness, but that

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Speaker 1: messaging might ironically be making the loneliness crisis even worse,

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Speaker 1: and Michaela says that this stems from a specific thing

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Speaker 1: that many news articles get wrong. When it comes to loneliness.

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Speaker 4: We see the vast majority of news articles using loneliness

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Speaker 4: and solitude interchangeably, which I think is not only inaccurate,

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Speaker 4: I think it's also harmful. These experiences are distinct. Being

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Speaker 4: alone is not loneliness. We can think of loneliness as

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Speaker 4: a feeling, right. It is a subjective experience of feeling disconnected,

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Speaker 4: regardless of whether you're physically by yourself or with other people.

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Speaker 4: You can feel lonely even when you're in a crowd,

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Speaker 4: right in a party. And actually, what I found in

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Speaker 4: my work we see that the most sort of intense

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Speaker 4: or painful loneliness often comes when we're with others because

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Speaker 4: we have expectation that we should be feeling connected to them,

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Speaker 4: but for one reason or another, we don't.

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Speaker 1: And so how correlated our loneliness and solitude?

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Speaker 4: We've seen from decades of work that loneliness and solitude

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Speaker 4: are actually weakly correlated, and the correlation is around point two.

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Speaker 4: So just for those listening, you know, we think of

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Speaker 4: correlations as the strength of a relationship between two experiences.

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Speaker 4: Zero means there's no relationship at all. One means that

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Speaker 4: they're the same thing, they're completely related. When one goes up,

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Speaker 4: the other goes up. And so point two is I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's not nothing.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 4: We know that in general, when people are alone, especially

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Speaker 4: for longer periods of time, it is common for them

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Speaker 4: to experience loneliness. That said, point two is still not

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Speaker 4: super high, and so there are many many instances in

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Speaker 4: which people are alone and not lonely at all. So

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Speaker 4: loneliness is this subjective feeling, whereas solitude we can think

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Speaker 4: of as the objective state of being alone. And so

437
00:24:13,476 --> 00:24:16,476
Speaker 4: solitude in that sense is not inherently a positive or

438
00:24:16,556 --> 00:24:17,516
Speaker 4: negative experience.

439
00:24:18,356 --> 00:24:21,876
Speaker 1: Solitude is inherently neutral. But Mikaila has also found that

440
00:24:21,916 --> 00:24:24,956
Speaker 1: more effective alone time can actually make us happier.

441
00:24:25,276 --> 00:24:27,756
Speaker 4: We're taught so much about how to interact with others,

442
00:24:27,796 --> 00:24:30,716
Speaker 4: how to work as a team, we're not often explicitly

443
00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:32,636
Speaker 4: taught how to be alone. It's something we sort of

444
00:24:32,676 --> 00:24:35,396
Speaker 4: have to figure out on our own. I really view

445
00:24:36,156 --> 00:24:38,836
Speaker 4: solitude as a skill. You know, it takes practice, It

446
00:24:38,876 --> 00:24:43,036
Speaker 4: takes time to really cultivate this positive relationship to solitude.

447
00:24:43,316 --> 00:24:45,356
Speaker 1: What are some of the best benefits of solitude?

448
00:24:46,556 --> 00:24:51,316
Speaker 4: One of the I would say biggest benefits of spending

449
00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:56,196
Speaker 4: time alone is emotional deactivation, or essentially, when we spend

450
00:24:56,236 --> 00:25:00,556
Speaker 4: time alone, you know, in general, our intense negative emotions

451
00:25:00,716 --> 00:25:04,556
Speaker 4: as well as our intense positive emotions become less intense,

452
00:25:04,756 --> 00:25:09,116
Speaker 4: emotions become a little bit more neutralized. We know, for example,

453
00:25:09,356 --> 00:25:12,476
Speaker 4: that when we spend time with other people, that presence

454
00:25:12,516 --> 00:25:16,356
Speaker 4: of others can amplify our emotional experiences. Right being with

455
00:25:16,436 --> 00:25:20,316
Speaker 4: others makes anxiety often even more intense, or can make

456
00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:23,756
Speaker 4: excitement happiness even more intense. And so when we're alone,

457
00:25:23,796 --> 00:25:26,676
Speaker 4: we don't have that sort of feedback from others, and

458
00:25:26,996 --> 00:25:30,236
Speaker 4: often there's less stimulation in the environments, and so it

459
00:25:30,276 --> 00:25:34,556
Speaker 4: can help sort of deactivate intense negative emotions. I've run

460
00:25:34,596 --> 00:25:37,396
Speaker 4: several studies where I've had participants come into the lab

461
00:25:37,916 --> 00:25:40,796
Speaker 4: indicate how they're feeling in that moment, and then they

462
00:25:40,836 --> 00:25:44,076
Speaker 4: spend ten to fifteen minutes. In one study, we had

463
00:25:44,156 --> 00:25:48,756
Speaker 4: them spend thirty minutes by themselves without actually any laptop,

464
00:25:48,796 --> 00:25:52,516
Speaker 4: any phone, any device, with no activity, just truly by

465
00:25:52,516 --> 00:25:55,716
Speaker 4: themselves with their thoughts, sitting in a chair, and even

466
00:25:55,796 --> 00:26:01,436
Speaker 4: then we see that both positive emotion and negative emotion decreased,

467
00:26:01,636 --> 00:26:03,116
Speaker 4: emotions became more neutral.

468
00:26:03,636 --> 00:26:06,156
Speaker 1: Mikaela has found that being left alone with our thoughts

469
00:26:06,476 --> 00:26:09,516
Speaker 1: without the option of electrocuting ourselves can you full for

470
00:26:09,596 --> 00:26:13,356
Speaker 1: regulating our feelings. Honestly, this result surprised me a bit.

471
00:26:13,836 --> 00:26:16,556
Speaker 1: Whenever I'm feeling an intense emotion, my instinct is to

472
00:26:16,596 --> 00:26:18,196
Speaker 1: reach out to a friend so that I can talk

473
00:26:18,236 --> 00:26:21,316
Speaker 1: through what I'm experiencing. I hadn't realized that being by

474
00:26:21,356 --> 00:26:22,996
Speaker 1: myself could also be helpful.

475
00:26:23,516 --> 00:26:26,796
Speaker 4: There are many situations in which, for example, seeking social

476
00:26:26,836 --> 00:26:30,356
Speaker 4: support and talking to others can help. Other people can

477
00:26:30,356 --> 00:26:32,796
Speaker 4: help shift our perspectives, or they can just give us

478
00:26:32,836 --> 00:26:35,316
Speaker 4: a hug and remind us that everything's going to be okay,

479
00:26:36,036 --> 00:26:38,516
Speaker 4: or they can help normalize our experiences. There's lots of

480
00:26:38,556 --> 00:26:41,036
Speaker 4: things we can gain from talking to others when we're

481
00:26:41,076 --> 00:26:45,676
Speaker 4: feeling upset. But sometimes when we're in this really hot

482
00:26:45,716 --> 00:26:49,476
Speaker 4: and emotional state, people want to be by themselves, and

483
00:26:49,516 --> 00:26:53,036
Speaker 4: I think that's not inherently a bad thing. Stepping back

484
00:26:53,116 --> 00:26:55,876
Speaker 4: and spending some time by yourself can help you sort

485
00:26:55,876 --> 00:26:58,236
Speaker 4: of cool off a little bit. Just like when you

486
00:26:58,276 --> 00:27:00,116
Speaker 4: know people are in the middle of an argument, whether

487
00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:03,836
Speaker 4: it's a romantic couple or friends, sometimes it's like, hey,

488
00:27:03,916 --> 00:27:06,476
Speaker 4: let's take a minute, let's go into our rooms, and

489
00:27:06,516 --> 00:27:08,676
Speaker 4: then let's come back right to just sort of relax

490
00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:11,516
Speaker 4: for a moment. That can be really powerful.

491
00:27:11,636 --> 00:27:14,116
Speaker 1: And for those who are uncomfortable with being alone without

492
00:27:14,156 --> 00:27:17,916
Speaker 1: any distractions. Mikaela has some good news. To reap the

493
00:27:17,956 --> 00:27:21,476
Speaker 1: emotional benefits of alone time, you don't necessarily just have

494
00:27:21,516 --> 00:27:22,476
Speaker 1: to stare into the void.

495
00:27:22,756 --> 00:27:26,276
Speaker 4: Being alone doesn't just have to be sitting by yourself, thinking,

496
00:27:26,476 --> 00:27:29,316
Speaker 4: reflecting on your life. It can, but you can do

497
00:27:29,396 --> 00:27:31,516
Speaker 4: so many different things. You can take a walk, you

498
00:27:31,556 --> 00:27:34,756
Speaker 4: can read, you can tidy things up, you can cook,

499
00:27:35,196 --> 00:27:38,396
Speaker 4: and so you know, when people engage in these different

500
00:27:38,396 --> 00:27:40,796
Speaker 4: activities when they're alone, it can both serve as a

501
00:27:40,916 --> 00:27:44,436
Speaker 4: sort of distraction from what's going on and also just

502
00:27:44,476 --> 00:27:47,956
Speaker 4: help them kind of relax right and even physiologically help

503
00:27:47,996 --> 00:27:51,596
Speaker 4: their bodies sort of recover from maybe a stressful experience,

504
00:27:52,196 --> 00:27:56,036
Speaker 4: which really I think stands in contrast to a lot

505
00:27:56,076 --> 00:27:59,276
Speaker 4: of what we're hearing now in the media and also

506
00:27:59,876 --> 00:28:02,796
Speaker 4: a lot of what psychologists are studying.

507
00:28:03,396 --> 00:28:06,796
Speaker 1: Your research has these really clear implications for public health messaging.

508
00:28:07,276 --> 00:28:09,996
Speaker 1: If coverage of loneliness might be made making things worse,

509
00:28:10,116 --> 00:28:13,796
Speaker 1: what should media, you know, this podcast included, honestly be

510
00:28:13,916 --> 00:28:14,636
Speaker 1: doing differently.

511
00:28:15,556 --> 00:28:19,996
Speaker 4: I think that we should be emphasizing the importance of

512
00:28:20,036 --> 00:28:25,516
Speaker 4: social connection while also communicating to people that being alone

513
00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:28,276
Speaker 4: can be okay, that it can be good, that there

514
00:28:28,276 --> 00:28:30,716
Speaker 4: are situations in which it can promote our well being,

515
00:28:30,756 --> 00:28:32,676
Speaker 4: and not just our well being, it can promote our

516
00:28:32,716 --> 00:28:35,636
Speaker 4: social lives and our relationships and enhance them.

517
00:28:35,756 --> 00:28:35,956
Speaker 3: Right.

518
00:28:36,636 --> 00:28:39,956
Speaker 4: I think if we had messaging that better sort of

519
00:28:40,156 --> 00:28:45,196
Speaker 4: portrayed both social connection and solitude as good for us,

520
00:28:45,676 --> 00:28:47,756
Speaker 4: then I think we're in the situation where no matter

521
00:28:47,796 --> 00:28:50,556
Speaker 4: what people are doing, whether they're by themselves or with others,

522
00:28:50,996 --> 00:28:53,156
Speaker 4: they can make the most of that experience.

523
00:28:53,516 --> 00:28:55,956
Speaker 1: You've also done some fascinating work on how the language

524
00:28:55,996 --> 00:28:58,436
Speaker 1: we use matters. Tell me about that work.

525
00:28:58,636 --> 00:29:01,716
Speaker 4: I ran this really simple study with my wonderful collaborator,

526
00:29:01,756 --> 00:29:06,476
Speaker 4: Scott Campbell at the Ohio State University, and we essentially

527
00:29:07,036 --> 00:29:13,316
Speaker 4: ask participants to report their perceptions of, and beliefs about

528
00:29:13,356 --> 00:29:17,036
Speaker 4: and experiences of five different words for being alone.

529
00:29:17,156 --> 00:29:17,996
Speaker 3: So we had.

530
00:29:18,476 --> 00:29:24,396
Speaker 4: Solitude, being alone, time alone, me time, and isolation, words

531
00:29:24,396 --> 00:29:28,156
Speaker 4: that are often used interchangeably, but they have very different connotations.

532
00:29:28,516 --> 00:29:32,436
Speaker 4: And indeed we found that people viewed me time as

533
00:29:32,476 --> 00:29:35,756
Speaker 4: the most positive, and they viewed isolation as the most negative.

534
00:29:35,956 --> 00:29:39,356
Speaker 4: I also want to mention really interesting finding, which was

535
00:29:39,436 --> 00:29:43,756
Speaker 4: that people viewed time alone as more positive than being alone.

536
00:29:44,156 --> 00:29:47,436
Speaker 4: Even though it's so easy to just say this interchangeably, right,

537
00:29:47,996 --> 00:29:51,396
Speaker 4: but I think the idea there is that time alone

538
00:29:51,676 --> 00:29:54,396
Speaker 4: is maybe this like evening that we're spending by ourselves,

539
00:29:54,436 --> 00:29:58,276
Speaker 4: whereas being alone feels a little more long term.

540
00:29:58,476 --> 00:30:01,156
Speaker 1: Mikhaela ran an experiment to test how these different phrases

541
00:30:01,236 --> 00:30:04,476
Speaker 1: affected people's mood and behavior. She split a group of

542
00:30:04,476 --> 00:30:07,636
Speaker 1: college students into two experimental groups and asked them all

543
00:30:07,716 --> 00:30:10,836
Speaker 1: to spend thirty minutes by them. So the only difference

544
00:30:10,876 --> 00:30:13,516
Speaker 1: between the two groups was in the instructions they received.

545
00:30:14,076 --> 00:30:16,716
Speaker 4: Half of the participants were told to spend thirty minutes

546
00:30:16,756 --> 00:30:19,316
Speaker 4: in me time. The other half were told to spend

547
00:30:19,316 --> 00:30:22,516
Speaker 4: thirty minutes in isolation. So what we found in this

548
00:30:22,636 --> 00:30:26,516
Speaker 4: study is that people who spent those thirty minutes in

549
00:30:26,676 --> 00:30:33,836
Speaker 4: isolation experienced a reduction in their negative emotion and also

550
00:30:33,956 --> 00:30:37,516
Speaker 4: a reduction in their positive emotion. So, like I was

551
00:30:37,516 --> 00:30:40,996
Speaker 4: saying earlier, right, we see this deactivation effect where people

552
00:30:40,996 --> 00:30:43,276
Speaker 4: are feeling less bad, but they're also feeling less good.

553
00:30:43,676 --> 00:30:45,956
Speaker 4: In the mean time group, we see something different. We

554
00:30:45,996 --> 00:30:50,076
Speaker 4: see that positive emotion significantly went up and negative emotion

555
00:30:50,556 --> 00:30:53,996
Speaker 4: went down even more so than it did in that

556
00:30:54,236 --> 00:30:57,876
Speaker 4: other group. Right, And so the me time group felt

557
00:30:58,076 --> 00:31:01,836
Speaker 4: better after those thirty minutes. Not just that, we asked

558
00:31:01,836 --> 00:31:05,356
Speaker 4: our participants to report what they had thought about in

559
00:31:05,396 --> 00:31:09,076
Speaker 4: that thirty minute period and also what they did. Interestingly, Lorie,

560
00:31:09,196 --> 00:31:11,916
Speaker 4: we didn't see any differences in what participants reported doing

561
00:31:11,956 --> 00:31:15,996
Speaker 4: in those thirty minutes between me time and isolation. We did, however,

562
00:31:16,316 --> 00:31:20,556
Speaker 4: see a significant difference in what participants reported thinking about.

563
00:31:20,636 --> 00:31:24,396
Speaker 4: So in the medtime group, participants were more likely to

564
00:31:24,436 --> 00:31:29,036
Speaker 4: think about personal growth, whereas an isolation they were more

565
00:31:29,156 --> 00:31:32,156
Speaker 4: likely to think about work and school. And so it

566
00:31:32,236 --> 00:31:34,796
Speaker 4: is a little interesting, right, how even just the words

567
00:31:34,796 --> 00:31:38,156
Speaker 4: we use can maybe shift what we do in this time.

568
00:31:38,636 --> 00:31:42,116
Speaker 1: So to recap, loneliness and being alone two very different things,

569
00:31:42,476 --> 00:31:45,316
Speaker 1: and how we think about and describe these concepts matters

570
00:31:45,316 --> 00:31:49,196
Speaker 1: a lot, because neither loneliness nor solitude are inherently bad.

571
00:31:49,716 --> 00:31:52,596
Speaker 1: Being alone can leave you feeling calmer, clearer, and more

572
00:31:52,636 --> 00:31:55,756
Speaker 1: emotionally grounded, and that ech of loneliness can be a

573
00:31:55,796 --> 00:31:58,876
Speaker 1: helpful signal that you need to make changes or as

574
00:31:58,916 --> 00:32:01,836
Speaker 1: a push for personal growth. Now does that mean that

575
00:32:01,836 --> 00:32:05,956
Speaker 1: social connection isn't beneficial or that people experiencing chronic isolation

576
00:32:06,156 --> 00:32:09,916
Speaker 1: don't require serious intervention? Of course not. But what these

577
00:32:09,956 --> 00:32:12,596
Speaker 1: findings do mean is that we might all benefit if

578
00:32:12,596 --> 00:32:15,996
Speaker 1: we change the way we discuss feelings like loneliness and solitude,

579
00:32:16,356 --> 00:32:20,636
Speaker 1: both on a societal level and as individuals. Mikayla's research

580
00:32:20,716 --> 00:32:24,636
Speaker 1: demonstrates that talking about these experiences differently might prevent a

581
00:32:24,676 --> 00:32:28,836
Speaker 1: lot of unnecessary suffering. But Mikayla's work also shows that

582
00:32:28,916 --> 00:32:31,316
Speaker 1: alone time is a skill one that we need to

583
00:32:31,396 --> 00:32:33,636
Speaker 1: learn to use more effectively if we want to get

584
00:32:33,636 --> 00:32:36,756
Speaker 1: more of its benefits, which raises a question, what does

585
00:32:36,796 --> 00:32:39,196
Speaker 1: embracing healthy solitude actually look.

586
00:32:39,076 --> 00:32:40,076
Speaker 3: Like in practice?

587
00:32:40,596 --> 00:32:43,596
Speaker 1: After the break, we'll speak to a world renowned advocate

588
00:32:43,676 --> 00:32:46,556
Speaker 1: for a loan time. We'll hear her tips for incorporating

589
00:32:46,596 --> 00:32:49,276
Speaker 1: more well being boosting solo moments into our day to

590
00:32:49,356 --> 00:32:52,076
Speaker 1: day lives. That Happiness Lab will be right back.

591
00:32:58,476 --> 00:33:00,636
Speaker 3: Hi, how's it going good? Good?

592
00:33:00,636 --> 00:33:02,196
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for taking the time to do this.

593
00:33:02,556 --> 00:33:03,356
Speaker 3: I'm really excited.

594
00:33:03,356 --> 00:33:05,756
Speaker 5: I love your show. I don't have my podcast anymore,

595
00:33:05,756 --> 00:33:07,916
Speaker 5: so every time I do it, I'm like, can I remember?

596
00:33:08,036 --> 00:33:09,596
Speaker 5: But it sounds like you can hear me.

597
00:33:09,676 --> 00:33:10,956
Speaker 3: Okay, So this.

598
00:33:10,836 --> 00:33:14,076
Speaker 1: Is Emma Gannon. Emma is a writer, podcaster, and the

599
00:33:14,116 --> 00:33:17,356
Speaker 1: author of a new book, A Creative Compass, Finding Your

600
00:33:17,396 --> 00:33:20,836
Speaker 1: Way to a creative life. She's written extensively about the

601
00:33:20,876 --> 00:33:24,636
Speaker 1: connection between loneliness and solitude, and that's in part because

602
00:33:24,676 --> 00:33:27,036
Speaker 1: Emma is a huge fan of a lot of time.

603
00:33:27,436 --> 00:33:33,676
Speaker 5: It's such a nuanced topic because loneliness and solitude are

604
00:33:33,716 --> 00:33:36,916
Speaker 5: so different. You can be lonely in a crowded room,

605
00:33:37,036 --> 00:33:39,316
Speaker 5: you can be lonely in a marriage, you can be

606
00:33:39,396 --> 00:33:43,556
Speaker 5: lonely at a party. When you're feeling lonely, I believe

607
00:33:43,556 --> 00:33:46,596
Speaker 5: it's because you're really disconnected from yourself. You feel lonely

608
00:33:46,636 --> 00:33:50,596
Speaker 5: inside yourself, like you feel lonely because no one understands

609
00:33:50,596 --> 00:33:53,796
Speaker 5: you and you don't even understand you. And so in

610
00:33:53,836 --> 00:33:57,196
Speaker 5: my solitude, I don't feel lonely. Have chosen it, and

611
00:33:57,236 --> 00:34:00,516
Speaker 5: I honestly think that some of my favorite memories are

612
00:34:01,316 --> 00:34:05,196
Speaker 5: of me being alone. And sometimes I feel like it's

613
00:34:05,276 --> 00:34:08,476
Speaker 5: controversial to say it because we're meant to be on

614
00:34:08,516 --> 00:34:11,556
Speaker 5: our deathbed and think that our best moments in life

615
00:34:11,636 --> 00:34:14,436
Speaker 5: are with our loved ones. And of course that is true.

616
00:34:14,476 --> 00:34:17,356
Speaker 5: I'm not saying it's not. But I think I'm also

617
00:34:17,396 --> 00:34:20,116
Speaker 5: going to be on my deathbed thinking that trip was

618
00:34:20,156 --> 00:34:22,756
Speaker 5: amazing that I had by myself, Like I went to

619
00:34:22,876 --> 00:34:25,716
Speaker 5: New York by myself for a month two years ago,

620
00:34:26,196 --> 00:34:27,916
Speaker 5: and I think about it all the time, and I

621
00:34:27,956 --> 00:34:29,156
Speaker 5: want to do something like that again.

622
00:34:29,916 --> 00:34:32,276
Speaker 1: When you think of an experience like traveling alone or

623
00:34:32,316 --> 00:34:35,436
Speaker 1: dining alone, how does that differ when you're with another person.

624
00:34:35,716 --> 00:34:37,996
Speaker 5: It's a totally different experience. So when I'm with a

625
00:34:38,036 --> 00:34:41,796
Speaker 5: friend and having dinner, I'm super focused on them. I'm

626
00:34:41,836 --> 00:34:44,516
Speaker 5: focused on the experience and I want to be present

627
00:34:45,076 --> 00:34:48,076
Speaker 5: and I want to be listening, and I want to

628
00:34:48,076 --> 00:34:50,956
Speaker 5: be conscious of it being kind of reciprocal.

629
00:34:51,036 --> 00:34:51,196
Speaker 3: You know.

630
00:34:51,276 --> 00:34:53,276
Speaker 5: It's a dance and it's enjoyable and I love it.

631
00:34:53,836 --> 00:34:56,076
Speaker 5: But when I'm in those environments, I'm not looking at

632
00:34:56,116 --> 00:34:58,596
Speaker 5: my surroundings as much. I'm not tasting the food as

633
00:34:58,676 --> 00:35:01,356
Speaker 5: much because I'm you know, my attentions on the other person.

634
00:35:01,476 --> 00:35:05,516
Speaker 5: So when I'm on my own, I'm having a sensory experience.

635
00:35:05,756 --> 00:35:08,396
Speaker 5: I'm taking in everything and looking around and people watching,

636
00:35:08,436 --> 00:35:12,596
Speaker 5: and I absolutely see it as an essential thing for

637
00:35:12,636 --> 00:35:15,516
Speaker 5: my nervous system. I can like regulate myself back to

638
00:35:16,276 --> 00:35:19,396
Speaker 5: my default setting. I think, like I just went away

639
00:35:19,476 --> 00:35:22,116
Speaker 5: for three nights last week by myself to a little

640
00:35:22,156 --> 00:35:25,836
Speaker 5: town called Brye in England. It's an hour train from

641
00:35:25,916 --> 00:35:29,836
Speaker 5: my house, super easy to get to and within maybe

642
00:35:29,876 --> 00:35:32,316
Speaker 5: about half an hour of just getting off the train,

643
00:35:32,996 --> 00:35:36,036
Speaker 5: being by myself, putting my bag down in the hotel room,

644
00:35:36,476 --> 00:35:38,716
Speaker 5: lying on the bed, no one was going to get

645
00:35:38,716 --> 00:35:42,036
Speaker 5: me for three days, and I had this like joy

646
00:35:42,076 --> 00:35:44,116
Speaker 5: that went through my body. But more than that, I

647
00:35:44,196 --> 00:35:48,276
Speaker 5: had this just sense of taking the mask off and

648
00:35:48,356 --> 00:35:53,036
Speaker 5: like completely relaxing my whole entire body. And whenever I

649
00:35:53,076 --> 00:35:55,876
Speaker 5: come back from those trips, my husband is like, Wow,

650
00:35:56,476 --> 00:35:59,436
Speaker 5: it's like a medicine. It's not something that you should

651
00:35:59,436 --> 00:36:01,636
Speaker 5: think about as a luxury. You should think about it

652
00:36:01,636 --> 00:36:05,036
Speaker 5: as like a mental health toolkit. Once a month, I

653
00:36:05,076 --> 00:36:06,836
Speaker 5: need to do something, and it doesn't have to be

654
00:36:06,916 --> 00:36:09,196
Speaker 5: you know, it's expensive to go away. I'm not saying that,

655
00:36:09,516 --> 00:36:11,356
Speaker 5: but it needs to be at least like a long

656
00:36:11,396 --> 00:36:12,916
Speaker 5: walk in silence or something like that.

657
00:36:13,156 --> 00:36:15,876
Speaker 1: And it does admit, however, that spending time alone is

658
00:36:15,916 --> 00:36:19,676
Speaker 1: not always super easy in a society that's biased against owners.

659
00:36:20,276 --> 00:36:25,116
Speaker 5: Busy restaurants treat a solo diner as sort of less

660
00:36:25,116 --> 00:36:28,156
Speaker 5: important because they're not making as much money from you.

661
00:36:28,556 --> 00:36:30,156
Speaker 5: They'll sit you at the bar a lot. You know,

662
00:36:30,196 --> 00:36:32,036
Speaker 5: you're like shoved in the corner a little bit, or

663
00:36:32,076 --> 00:36:34,396
Speaker 5: you're ignored. I've had that a bit actually, where I

664
00:36:34,396 --> 00:36:36,396
Speaker 5: haven't really been sort of checked in on. You know,

665
00:36:36,436 --> 00:36:38,036
Speaker 5: you're sort of left and you're trying to get the

666
00:36:38,036 --> 00:36:40,116
Speaker 5: bill and you want another drink and then it's too late.

667
00:36:40,316 --> 00:36:41,956
Speaker 5: So I think it would be great for kind of

668
00:36:42,036 --> 00:36:45,396
Speaker 5: restaurants or whatever to understand that you're still having an

669
00:36:45,436 --> 00:36:47,476
Speaker 5: experience and you're still trying to have a lovely time.

670
00:36:47,876 --> 00:36:50,076
Speaker 5: When I was in my twenties, I was more sort

671
00:36:50,076 --> 00:36:52,316
Speaker 5: of unsure of myself, and I think people would come

672
00:36:52,396 --> 00:36:54,916
Speaker 5: up to me more, or you know, you'd get men

673
00:36:55,076 --> 00:36:58,236
Speaker 5: being weird, or you would get people thinking you wanted

674
00:36:58,276 --> 00:37:02,076
Speaker 5: company when you didn't, and I felt self conscious. But

675
00:37:02,236 --> 00:37:04,156
Speaker 5: people don't come over to me as much. Like I'm

676
00:37:04,196 --> 00:37:06,996
Speaker 5: older now and I'm confident, and I'm like, don't come

677
00:37:06,996 --> 00:37:09,596
Speaker 5: near me, like I give that energy of like I'm

678
00:37:09,596 --> 00:37:10,436
Speaker 5: busy and I'm eating.

679
00:37:11,436 --> 00:37:13,916
Speaker 1: So we talked about traveling alone and dining alone. I'm

680
00:37:13,916 --> 00:37:16,676
Speaker 1: curious about some of the other activities you've done on

681
00:37:16,716 --> 00:37:20,116
Speaker 1: your own. Can you share some of those with me? Yeah?

682
00:37:20,156 --> 00:37:22,316
Speaker 5: So I do like going with my friends to things,

683
00:37:22,796 --> 00:37:25,956
Speaker 5: but I also actively choose moments to go alone. So

684
00:37:26,796 --> 00:37:29,396
Speaker 5: I love going to the cinema by myself, especially to

685
00:37:29,436 --> 00:37:33,836
Speaker 5: see something really moving. I saw a film called H's

686
00:37:33,876 --> 00:37:37,796
Speaker 5: for Hawk recently, which is about grief and relationships to

687
00:37:37,836 --> 00:37:40,756
Speaker 5: animals and had some deep themes, and I just knew

688
00:37:40,796 --> 00:37:42,676
Speaker 5: I wanted to watch it alone. I just wanted to

689
00:37:42,716 --> 00:37:45,516
Speaker 5: really immerse myself. I didn't want to talk to anyone afterwards.

690
00:37:45,796 --> 00:37:47,956
Speaker 5: I wanted to just go for a walk then really

691
00:37:47,996 --> 00:37:52,076
Speaker 5: digest the film. Like I really don't always want input.

692
00:37:52,516 --> 00:37:54,636
Speaker 5: I love sitting and like reflecting.

693
00:37:54,716 --> 00:37:56,516
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you brought up that example of going

694
00:37:56,516 --> 00:37:58,756
Speaker 1: to the film by yourself, because I don't do that often,

695
00:37:58,836 --> 00:38:00,636
Speaker 1: But there was this one period in grad school where

696
00:38:00,636 --> 00:38:02,356
Speaker 1: I did it a lot. I was over in the UK.

697
00:38:02,476 --> 00:38:04,596
Speaker 1: I was studying at the University of Bristol, and I

698
00:38:04,676 --> 00:38:07,276
Speaker 1: just like didn't know that many people. There's like great

699
00:38:07,276 --> 00:38:09,636
Speaker 1: indie cinema and Bristol at the time, and i'd walk

700
00:38:09,636 --> 00:38:12,516
Speaker 1: there by myself and I would watch the movies by myself,

701
00:38:12,876 --> 00:38:14,556
Speaker 1: and I did have that feeling of feeling like a

702
00:38:14,556 --> 00:38:16,316
Speaker 1: little bit of like a freak. If someone see me

703
00:38:16,356 --> 00:38:18,756
Speaker 1: by myself, they'd be like, who's that weird person? But

704
00:38:18,836 --> 00:38:21,356
Speaker 1: I remember walking home from those movies and having such

705
00:38:21,396 --> 00:38:24,396
Speaker 1: interesting thoughts about them of just kind of like sinking

706
00:38:24,396 --> 00:38:26,116
Speaker 1: into them in a different way. And even now when

707
00:38:26,116 --> 00:38:28,436
Speaker 1: I think about the specific films that I watched back then,

708
00:38:28,716 --> 00:38:30,756
Speaker 1: I remember them in a really different way than like

709
00:38:30,836 --> 00:38:32,636
Speaker 1: the last movie that I watched in the cinema with

710
00:38:32,716 --> 00:38:35,596
Speaker 1: my husband. Here you have a connection to the things

711
00:38:35,636 --> 00:38:39,036
Speaker 1: that you experience on your own, and that's kind of special.

712
00:38:39,676 --> 00:38:41,996
Speaker 5: It really is, and I think it kind of preserves

713
00:38:42,436 --> 00:38:44,956
Speaker 5: your individual experience. Like I remember once going through this

714
00:38:45,036 --> 00:38:47,596
Speaker 5: film and I loved it. I was crying at the end,

715
00:38:47,676 --> 00:38:49,956
Speaker 5: like I had such a relationship with it. And then

716
00:38:49,956 --> 00:38:51,756
Speaker 5: the person next to me who I went to watch

717
00:38:51,756 --> 00:38:53,636
Speaker 5: the film with, just turned to me and said that

718
00:38:53,756 --> 00:38:56,956
Speaker 5: was awful, wasn't it. They were like picking it apart

719
00:38:56,996 --> 00:39:00,116
Speaker 5: for certain reasons, and I was like, Oh, you've kind

720
00:39:00,156 --> 00:39:02,716
Speaker 5: of just burst the moment I was having with it.

721
00:39:02,796 --> 00:39:05,036
Speaker 5: So I think sometimes it's just nice to kind of

722
00:39:05,396 --> 00:39:07,596
Speaker 5: sink in. And I did go to a concept by

723
00:39:07,596 --> 00:39:11,036
Speaker 5: myself recently as well, which was a first I think, actually,

724
00:39:11,356 --> 00:39:13,156
Speaker 5: and I was like, Oh, this is going to be

725
00:39:13,196 --> 00:39:15,996
Speaker 5: a bit weird going by myself because you're really aware

726
00:39:16,036 --> 00:39:18,396
Speaker 5: of how alone you are when you're in those big stadiums.

727
00:39:18,796 --> 00:39:20,436
Speaker 5: And then I was wedged in the middle of two

728
00:39:20,476 --> 00:39:23,116
Speaker 5: couples and they were having like a date night and

729
00:39:23,196 --> 00:39:25,516
Speaker 5: I was like, Oh, this is really challenging, but I

730
00:39:25,596 --> 00:39:27,316
Speaker 5: had a good time. I got into it.

731
00:39:27,996 --> 00:39:30,556
Speaker 1: You've also written about something that you've called artist dates.

732
00:39:30,596 --> 00:39:32,636
Speaker 1: Where does this concept come from and how do artist

733
00:39:32,756 --> 00:39:33,276
Speaker 1: dates work?

734
00:39:34,076 --> 00:39:36,636
Speaker 5: Yes, so this is from Julia Cameron, the author of

735
00:39:36,676 --> 00:39:39,836
Speaker 5: The Artist's Way and many other books. And I love

736
00:39:39,836 --> 00:39:42,556
Speaker 5: it and it's something that I do every week actually,

737
00:39:42,836 --> 00:39:47,516
Speaker 5: and it's essentially a solo date that you go on

738
00:39:48,196 --> 00:39:50,836
Speaker 5: where you have to do something just for the joy

739
00:39:50,876 --> 00:39:53,996
Speaker 5: of it. So you know, her thinking is that it

740
00:39:54,036 --> 00:39:56,276
Speaker 5: really helps you come up with new ideas, but you're

741
00:39:56,276 --> 00:39:58,276
Speaker 5: not really hunting for them. You're just having a little

742
00:39:58,356 --> 00:40:01,356
Speaker 5: day out by yourself essentially. And she has a list

743
00:40:01,356 --> 00:40:03,916
Speaker 5: in The Artist's Way to sort of prompt you, and

744
00:40:03,956 --> 00:40:06,516
Speaker 5: there are things like go to a pet store, go

745
00:40:06,636 --> 00:40:09,596
Speaker 5: for a walk, go to an art gallery, go to

746
00:40:09,596 --> 00:40:12,276
Speaker 5: the cinema. It's so joyful coming up with ideas for

747
00:40:12,396 --> 00:40:16,156
Speaker 5: artists dates. And I think her thinking behind it is like,

748
00:40:16,516 --> 00:40:18,556
Speaker 5: you can't really be a creative person if you're not

749
00:40:18,596 --> 00:40:20,956
Speaker 5: refieling the well. You need to go and do things

750
00:40:20,956 --> 00:40:22,996
Speaker 5: and live out things for you to have ideas.

751
00:40:23,476 --> 00:40:25,476
Speaker 1: Any good artist states that you've been on recently.

752
00:40:25,996 --> 00:40:27,636
Speaker 5: I mean something that I do do is I go

753
00:40:27,676 --> 00:40:31,076
Speaker 5: on Google Maps and I'll type in independent bookstore and

754
00:40:31,116 --> 00:40:34,756
Speaker 5: I'll just see what ones I haven't been to within

755
00:40:34,836 --> 00:40:37,876
Speaker 5: like an hour's walk or whatever. And there's a little

756
00:40:37,956 --> 00:40:42,076
Speaker 5: bookstore in London which is on a canal boat, and

757
00:40:42,436 --> 00:40:44,916
Speaker 5: I just thought, I'm going to walk to the canal boat.

758
00:40:45,036 --> 00:40:47,916
Speaker 5: I'm going to see what's going on in this part

759
00:40:47,916 --> 00:40:49,596
Speaker 5: of London, and I'm going to go to the bookstore,

760
00:40:49,836 --> 00:40:51,476
Speaker 5: and then I'm going to walk home again. And that

761
00:40:51,676 --> 00:40:53,316
Speaker 5: was my artist date for that day.

762
00:40:53,956 --> 00:40:56,396
Speaker 1: I'm curious, do you still ever feel lonely when you're

763
00:40:56,436 --> 00:40:57,196
Speaker 1: on your own?

764
00:40:57,476 --> 00:40:59,436
Speaker 5: Well, when I was in New York for a month,

765
00:40:59,476 --> 00:41:02,916
Speaker 5: I had moments of feeling a bit lonely. There is

766
00:41:02,956 --> 00:41:06,476
Speaker 5: a tipping point of too much alone time. A month

767
00:41:06,636 --> 00:41:08,876
Speaker 5: was long. My husband did come and visit me right

768
00:41:08,916 --> 00:41:11,276
Speaker 5: in the middle for a few days, so it broke

769
00:41:11,276 --> 00:41:12,676
Speaker 5: it up a little bit. But there were just a

770
00:41:12,716 --> 00:41:15,396
Speaker 5: few nights where I was like walking down the Hudson

771
00:41:15,516 --> 00:41:18,076
Speaker 5: River path or whatever, and I would see like a

772
00:41:18,076 --> 00:41:20,796
Speaker 5: group of four girlfriends laughing their heads off, and I

773
00:41:20,836 --> 00:41:23,316
Speaker 5: would be like, Okay, I really miss my friends right now.

774
00:41:23,916 --> 00:41:27,276
Speaker 5: Or I would see them like a romantic sunset and

775
00:41:27,396 --> 00:41:29,836
Speaker 5: someone taking like a selfie with their boyfriend, and I'd

776
00:41:29,836 --> 00:41:32,556
Speaker 5: be like, oh, actually, you know, I really miss my partner.

777
00:41:32,596 --> 00:41:34,836
Speaker 5: But I think that's just normal. And then those feelings

778
00:41:34,836 --> 00:41:37,596
Speaker 5: would come and then they would go again. So it's

779
00:41:37,636 --> 00:41:41,436
Speaker 5: such a normal human emotion and so I just let

780
00:41:41,436 --> 00:41:42,476
Speaker 5: myself feel it, I think.

781
00:41:42,716 --> 00:41:44,516
Speaker 1: And so you mentioned this idea of the New York

782
00:41:44,516 --> 00:41:47,596
Speaker 1: trip was starting to feel long, right, Any advice on

783
00:41:47,716 --> 00:41:50,356
Speaker 1: getting the balance right between the kind of effective alone

784
00:41:50,356 --> 00:41:52,196
Speaker 1: time but not too much alone time.

785
00:41:52,836 --> 00:41:57,316
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's about really understanding your own self

786
00:41:57,436 --> 00:42:00,996
Speaker 5: and your own mind and knowing when, and this is

787
00:42:00,996 --> 00:42:02,636
Speaker 5: a huge one that I'm still trying to work out,

788
00:42:02,836 --> 00:42:05,996
Speaker 5: is like sometimes what I need is a night in

789
00:42:06,076 --> 00:42:09,316
Speaker 5: by myself, and sometimes I need to put my shoo

790
00:42:09,396 --> 00:42:11,276
Speaker 5: on and I need to go out and see a friend.

791
00:42:12,076 --> 00:42:15,756
Speaker 5: So yeah, I think it's about thinking about what you

792
00:42:15,796 --> 00:42:16,156
Speaker 5: need in.

793
00:42:16,076 --> 00:42:18,876
Speaker 1: That moment anyways, that you've got an insight into what

794
00:42:18,916 --> 00:42:19,996
Speaker 1: that looks like over time.

795
00:42:20,956 --> 00:42:24,316
Speaker 5: I think over time it's like making a note of

796
00:42:24,356 --> 00:42:28,796
Speaker 5: how you feel. For example, recently, I just got over

797
00:42:29,116 --> 00:42:32,076
Speaker 5: an illness and I kept being like, no, no, no, I

798
00:42:32,076 --> 00:42:34,356
Speaker 5: should stay in again, I should stay in again. And

799
00:42:34,436 --> 00:42:36,516
Speaker 5: I was like, no, I know what I need. I

800
00:42:36,556 --> 00:42:38,196
Speaker 5: need to go out with someone who makes me laugh,

801
00:42:38,276 --> 00:42:41,076
Speaker 5: like one of my funniest friends. And that's what I did,

802
00:42:41,236 --> 00:42:43,836
Speaker 5: and I felt a million times better, Like it kind

803
00:42:43,876 --> 00:42:48,276
Speaker 5: of was like helping me heal my illness. And so yeah,

804
00:42:48,396 --> 00:42:51,476
Speaker 5: it's like being very intentional with what you need. And

805
00:42:51,516 --> 00:42:53,236
Speaker 5: we go in and out of being a caterpillar and

806
00:42:53,276 --> 00:42:55,676
Speaker 5: being a butterfly, don't we you know. But at the

807
00:42:55,716 --> 00:42:57,036
Speaker 5: heart of all of this, I've got to say, I

808
00:42:57,076 --> 00:42:58,756
Speaker 5: always need a bit of solitude.

809
00:42:59,876 --> 00:43:02,076
Speaker 1: And so for someone who's listening right now, who might

810
00:43:02,116 --> 00:43:04,396
Speaker 1: be really afraid to spend more time alone, what do

811
00:43:04,436 --> 00:43:05,836
Speaker 1: you think that fear is really about.

812
00:43:06,916 --> 00:43:11,796
Speaker 5: It's the same reason why maybe we're scared to put

813
00:43:11,836 --> 00:43:14,876
Speaker 5: down the alcohol in the evenings, or I don't know,

814
00:43:15,196 --> 00:43:17,796
Speaker 5: sit in a room and think about something. I think

815
00:43:17,796 --> 00:43:22,436
Speaker 5: there's a quote that's like every person's problem stems from

816
00:43:22,476 --> 00:43:24,396
Speaker 5: being unable to sit alone in a room.

817
00:43:24,836 --> 00:43:28,036
Speaker 1: The quote is actually from the French philosopher Blaze Pascal

818
00:43:28,516 --> 00:43:31,836
Speaker 1: All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit

819
00:43:31,916 --> 00:43:33,396
Speaker 1: quietly in a room alone.

820
00:43:33,556 --> 00:43:35,716
Speaker 5: So if it's like, for all the reasons we're on

821
00:43:35,716 --> 00:43:37,916
Speaker 5: our phones for like fourteen hours the day, it's the

822
00:43:37,996 --> 00:43:40,356
Speaker 5: same thing, Like we don't want to be alone with

823
00:43:40,436 --> 00:43:45,236
Speaker 5: our thoughts, I would assume it's because there's something that's

824
00:43:45,236 --> 00:43:47,356
Speaker 5: not quite right, and if we stop, we have to

825
00:43:47,436 --> 00:43:50,876
Speaker 5: confront what that thing is, whether that's that your marriage

826
00:43:50,956 --> 00:43:54,676
Speaker 5: is falling apart, or that you hate your job or

827
00:43:55,556 --> 00:43:58,156
Speaker 5: you don't like your life. I mean, it's easier to

828
00:43:58,156 --> 00:44:00,956
Speaker 5: plug the gap, isn't it than go and sit by

829
00:44:00,956 --> 00:44:03,636
Speaker 5: yourself and figure out what's going on. And I don't

830
00:44:03,636 --> 00:44:04,716
Speaker 5: blame anyone for that.

831
00:44:05,396 --> 00:44:07,876
Speaker 1: The first time you do it, in part because taking

832
00:44:07,916 --> 00:44:09,756
Speaker 1: this time to be alone can cars of you to

833
00:44:09,796 --> 00:44:12,036
Speaker 1: notice all the stuff that you've been avoiding. It can

834
00:44:12,076 --> 00:44:14,756
Speaker 1: be very uncomfortable, and so any advice for kind of

835
00:44:14,756 --> 00:44:16,636
Speaker 1: getting over that hump so that you can get to

836
00:44:16,836 --> 00:44:17,596
Speaker 1: enjoying it more.

837
00:44:18,636 --> 00:44:22,116
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't think it needs to be this

838
00:44:22,236 --> 00:44:25,676
Speaker 5: whole like I'm going to be a Buddhist monk for

839
00:44:25,756 --> 00:44:29,116
Speaker 5: the weekend and only be with myself and my thoughts. No,

840
00:44:29,356 --> 00:44:32,316
Speaker 5: I don't want to do that, that's too much. I

841
00:44:32,436 --> 00:44:34,516
Speaker 5: start the day with my morning pages, which is like

842
00:44:34,556 --> 00:44:38,996
Speaker 5: the Julia Cameron thing of journaling, writing three pages out

843
00:44:39,396 --> 00:44:41,516
Speaker 5: and honestly, if I do that in the morning, I'm

844
00:44:41,596 --> 00:44:43,916
Speaker 5: kind of done with the introspection. I don't need to

845
00:44:43,916 --> 00:44:47,156
Speaker 5: spend all day kind of you know, meditating or whatever.

846
00:44:47,276 --> 00:44:49,636
Speaker 5: It's not an exam that you need to pass. And

847
00:44:50,116 --> 00:44:53,116
Speaker 5: I think it's too daunting sometimes to have to be

848
00:44:53,156 --> 00:44:55,476
Speaker 5: with our thoughts all the time. Solitude for me is

849
00:44:55,516 --> 00:44:59,996
Speaker 5: about pleasure and enjoyment and enjoy enjoy it and celebrate

850
00:45:00,036 --> 00:45:02,236
Speaker 5: it and take up space even if you're on your own.

851
00:45:03,236 --> 00:45:06,836
Speaker 1: Loneliness can be painful, especially when it's chronic and leaves

852
00:45:06,876 --> 00:45:10,396
Speaker 1: us feeling disconnected well from other people and from ourselves.

853
00:45:10,876 --> 00:45:14,196
Speaker 1: But loneliness can also be a totally normal and totally

854
00:45:14,276 --> 00:45:18,116
Speaker 1: temporary feeling, one that signals the need for change or

855
00:45:18,196 --> 00:45:21,716
Speaker 1: an opportunity for growth. And that is the logic behind

856
00:45:21,716 --> 00:45:24,716
Speaker 1: this week's Happiness hot take. We need to rethink how

857
00:45:24,716 --> 00:45:27,236
Speaker 1: we talk about loneliness, and we need to fight our

858
00:45:27,356 --> 00:45:30,956
Speaker 1: urge to treat solitude as something suspicious. That way, we

859
00:45:30,956 --> 00:45:33,956
Speaker 1: can enjoy the benefits of social connection while also making

860
00:45:34,076 --> 00:45:37,156
Speaker 1: room for time alone, a skill that many of us

861
00:45:37,236 --> 00:45:39,796
Speaker 1: never learn to practice, but one that can help us

862
00:45:39,836 --> 00:45:44,316
Speaker 1: regulate our emotions, reconnect with ourselves, spark creativity, and even

863
00:45:44,476 --> 00:45:48,276
Speaker 1: strengthen our relationships. Next week, we'll wrap up our Happiness

864
00:45:48,316 --> 00:45:51,716
Speaker 1: Hot Take series with one final ever so hot Happiness

865
00:45:51,756 --> 00:45:54,596
Speaker 1: hot take. We should all bother each other a little

866
00:45:54,596 --> 00:45:57,276
Speaker 1: more often. I'm going to try to borrow one hundred

867
00:45:57,356 --> 00:46:00,036
Speaker 1: dollars from a strengder Excuse.

868
00:45:59,676 --> 00:46:01,636
Speaker 3: Me, we think I'll borrow a hundred dollars from you.

869
00:46:02,716 --> 00:46:05,476
Speaker 1: That's next week on a Happiness Lab with me, Doctor

870
00:46:05,556 --> 00:46:06,356
Speaker 1: Laurie Santos