Speaker 1: Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and
Speaker 1: welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin.
Speaker 1: The interviews in these episodes, you'll hear me talk to
Speaker 1: people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences,
Speaker 1: are drawn through the stories of Gin and draw lessons
Speaker 1: from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists,
Speaker 1: and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss
Speaker 1: how and why this series came about in a very
Speaker 1: personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy.
Speaker 1: I am very excited to introduce my guest for you
Speaker 1: this week and artists like no other that you have
Speaker 1: ever known. Marchan Alari is an artist, activist, writer, and educator.
Speaker 1: She was born and raised in Iran and moved to
Speaker 1: the US in two thousand and seven, and her work
Speaker 1: deals with the political and social and cultural contradictions that
Speaker 1: we face every single day. She's an acclaimed artist, the
Speaker 1: recipient of the Joan Mitchell Foundation Painters and Sculptors Grant,
Speaker 1: the Sun Dance Institute, New Frontier International Fellowship, and Leading
Speaker 1: Global Thinkers of two thousand and sixteen award by Foreign
Speaker 1: Policy Magazine. Her work has been part of numerous exhibitions, festivals,
Speaker 1: and workshops around the world, including the Whitney Museum of
Speaker 1: American Art, Pompadou Center, Museum of Contemporary Art in Montreal,
Speaker 1: the Tape Museum, the Queen's Museum, Powerhouse Museum, the Dallas
Speaker 1: Museum of Art, and so many more. Now, I came
Speaker 1: across Machine when I was researching female jams, and I
Speaker 1: came across her incredible project called she Who Sees the Unknown.
Speaker 1: And in this project more Sheen uses three D scanning, modeling,
Speaker 1: and printing to recreate monstrous female and queer figures from
Speaker 1: Middle Eastern origins. Believe me, this is a conversation you
Speaker 1: don't want to miss. Thank you so much for joining us,
Speaker 1: um Moha Shane. It's a real pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 1: I have been fascinated with your work ever since I
Speaker 1: discovered it earlier this year. Hi, thanks so much for
Speaker 1: having me Rabbia, It's it's an honor. So um you
Speaker 1: know I as you know you know. This UH Conversation
Speaker 1: series is a companion to the ongoing series which will
Speaker 1: which will have air by the time this this air
Speaker 1: is UM called the Hidden Gin Podcast, and I drew
Speaker 1: on a lot of different sources, and one of those
Speaker 1: sources actually was the exhibit that I've found, and that's
Speaker 1: how I discovered you called She who Sees the Unknown.
Speaker 1: But before we get into that, I want to talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about you say on your website, UM
Speaker 1: about this exhibit that the Iranian traditions jin are fearsome
Speaker 1: and honored, and that your upbringing in Iran was full
Speaker 1: of ancient mythical narratives involving supernatural beings, and your bedtime
Speaker 1: stories told to you by your grandmother often included gin.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to ask you if you can tell
Speaker 1: it a little bit about your upbringing, about your background
Speaker 1: in Iran, and about the gin lore that you grew
Speaker 1: up with. Yes, um So, I started to kind of
Speaker 1: become interested in general since like three and a half
Speaker 1: years ago, uh in these figures of monstrous female slash
Speaker 1: genderless career figures in mythical stories UH that would origin
Speaker 1: in West Asia or basically Middle Eastern UM ancient stories
Speaker 1: and UM to kind of um give you a little
Speaker 1: bit of I guess more summary of also like my
Speaker 1: practice in relationship to that I. You know, I also
Speaker 1: have been very interested in this relationship between technology and
Speaker 1: history in that sense. So when I was doing this research, UM,
Speaker 1: I was going through a lot of resources and books
Speaker 1: and and material UM that would you know include this
Speaker 1: this also like figure of of Gin within Islamic tradition studies.
Speaker 1: And so that's when I when I became interested in
Speaker 1: researching more um into the figure of the Gin. And
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, it's a figure that I grew up
Speaker 1: with in Iran. Whenever there were stories that kind of
Speaker 1: were ghosts, these ghostly stories, et cetera, it would always
Speaker 1: involve the figure of the Gin. And so a lot
Speaker 1: of people who might have grown up in different countries
Speaker 1: Islamic countries or Realistan countries probably also identify with this
Speaker 1: that Jen is a figure that we grow up within
Speaker 1: a lot of our our stories and time stories UM.
Speaker 1: And at the same time that it's very feared as
Speaker 1: a figu you're um, it's also very respected. So people
Speaker 1: take certain kind of UM caution or like certain kind
Speaker 1: of UH care in terms of the way they they
Speaker 1: deal with the digen and the way that you shouldn't
Speaker 1: interrupt certain spaces or you kind of can use different
Speaker 1: methods as a way to not not be possessed by
Speaker 1: by the gin. So, yeah, I'm gonna go on, please.
Speaker 1: So for me, the figure of the Gin had this
Speaker 1: personal relationship that I had with it, but at the
Speaker 1: same time coming I was also like coming to it
Speaker 1: from more of like a feminist perspective and feminism studies.
Speaker 1: And that's something that I guess I can talk more
Speaker 1: about later. Yeah, So, so I want to talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about what your perspective on these stories were
Speaker 1: as you grow up and maybe how that's changed, um
Speaker 1: with adulthood. I also, you know, I grew up steep
Speaker 1: kind of in this this this culture. Although my family
Speaker 1: nobody totally told stories much, but you know, a couple
Speaker 1: of Muslim kids get together and that's that was the
Speaker 1: topic conversation often late at nights. Um, So, when when
Speaker 1: you were being taught or told these stories where they
Speaker 1: kind of like lessons that were being told to you,
Speaker 1: or they told you to entertain or to maybe warn
Speaker 1: you from certain behaviors, or was it taught to you
Speaker 1: as something like this is real, Like you gotta take
Speaker 1: this seriously. Um. I think it's a combination of a
Speaker 1: couple of those things. You said, so most of it
Speaker 1: as I as I. As you also mentioned, it was
Speaker 1: told by my grandmother who lived with us, and you know,
Speaker 1: I had a very close relationship too. And one of
Speaker 1: the most vivid memories I have is um in a
Speaker 1: in a summer and evening um almost like night, when
Speaker 1: the stars were out, and it was me and two
Speaker 1: of my my cousins who we all lived in the
Speaker 1: same apartment building, and my grandmother was telling us about
Speaker 1: her encounter with a gen um at a public bath
Speaker 1: where she grew up, which is a village in Kurdistan
Speaker 1: and west of Iran, and she was telling us, you
Speaker 1: know how it was very common for women who would
Speaker 1: go to these public bath houses to encounter gen And
Speaker 1: one of the things that is also known or like
Speaker 1: talked about about the gen is that they really like
Speaker 1: spaces that are dark and humid. So basically, you know,
Speaker 1: a place like a bath house is like a perfect
Speaker 1: place for them to come and visit. So for me,
Speaker 1: it was kind of like as a child, it was
Speaker 1: a mixture of believing it and doubting it, like did
Speaker 1: she really see it? Was it something else she saw that,
Speaker 1: like she thought it's a gen um, But again like
Speaker 1: because those stories get like repeated so much within different
Speaker 1: people's experiences of encountering gen um. It's kind of like
Speaker 1: becomes almost like an oral narrative of you know, a
Speaker 1: relationship with this supernatural creature that is there and then
Speaker 1: certain people encountered in certain or don't. And if you're
Speaker 1: scared of it, then, as I mentioned earlier, you can
Speaker 1: take certain actions um to to avoid it. Were you
Speaker 1: ever aware and I wasn't aware until adulthood, and I did,
Speaker 1: you know, my research kind of more deeply into into
Speaker 1: this whole subject um that ginn or gendered um and
Speaker 1: that there is a body of you know, folklore around
Speaker 1: female gin in particular, or at least um people encounter
Speaker 1: them as female gin. Was that something you were aware
Speaker 1: of growing up or is that something you also learned
Speaker 1: as you started doing your research into this project. Absolutely not.
Speaker 1: My image of the gin as as this creature was
Speaker 1: always male. And again this goes back to one of
Speaker 1: the reasons I became really curious and also interested in
Speaker 1: this this project that I worked on for for almost
Speaker 1: four years. She was sees the unknown um which I
Speaker 1: wanted to kind of find these female or almost genderless
Speaker 1: uh stories and figures of of the Gin and also
Speaker 1: like monstrous figures because UM also growing up in Iran
Speaker 1: with a lot of mythical and you know, ancient stories
Speaker 1: that are part of um our daily life but also
Speaker 1: our you know school and like literature and education. Incredible
Speaker 1: incredible stories. Yeah, and they're all always very you know,
Speaker 1: all these figures are male. So I was wondering, like,
Speaker 1: where are the female figures are mohere are the figures
Speaker 1: that are perhaps like more and more queer, more like
Speaker 1: a non binary in terms of like you know, gender
Speaker 1: as like these things that you know in English were
Speaker 1: like very specific about he and she, but in in
Speaker 1: far Sea, actually there's no he or she for third person, right,
Speaker 1: So I kind of like wanted to find also that
Speaker 1: ambiguity within these these texts and material. And yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's how I came across so many female or generalist
Speaker 1: figures of of Gin that were illustrated in different books
Speaker 1: and and resources and material that I had no idea about.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us UM a little bit about the
Speaker 1: the exhibit again, its titled She who Sees the Unknown?
Speaker 1: About the kind of um like the medium that you
Speaker 1: used for this exhibit, I mean it's and I wish
Speaker 1: I could. I don't know where is it this being
Speaker 1: displayed right now, by the way, So it's more of
Speaker 1: like a project. I mean, it has been exhibited in
Speaker 1: so many different places, but when you go up to
Speaker 1: my website she posives you on that time. It's a
Speaker 1: research based project that has many different components and elements,
Speaker 1: from performance to these three D printed sculptures that I
Speaker 1: recreate from illustrations I find in older material, books, etcetera. Um,
Speaker 1: to these new texts and narratives that I write about
Speaker 1: each of these figures that I choose to work with.
Speaker 1: And then there's an archive aspect of it, and also
Speaker 1: like a reading room that I have been also working
Speaker 1: on as part of the project. So um yeah, the
Speaker 1: project itself again has many many different components um. And
Speaker 1: then the exhibition in time i've shown it, it has,
Speaker 1: you know, taken many many different forms. But within the
Speaker 1: research I've done, I've come across many many texts and
Speaker 1: material and an illustrations, but I've chosen to focus on
Speaker 1: five specific figures, which are Huma, who is a gin
Speaker 1: who brings fever to human body. Yeah, Judge jug who
Speaker 1: are these figures that are kind of like monsters gen
Speaker 1: like that are spoken in the Qoran that represent chaos.
Speaker 1: The Laughing Snake, which is uh known as you know,
Speaker 1: a very like powerful kind of hybrid animal human female
Speaker 1: human combination that is known as you know, this figure
Speaker 1: that is very um strong and is going through all
Speaker 1: these like towns and cities and killing people and eating
Speaker 1: all the animals, and no one can win a war
Speaker 1: with her until um someone comes and say the only
Speaker 1: way to kill her is to hold a mirror in
Speaker 1: front of her, and when she sees her reflection, she
Speaker 1: starts laughing, and she laughs for days and nights until
Speaker 1: she dies from the laughter um. And then Caboos, which
Speaker 1: is a gen that is known as a gen that
Speaker 1: brings nightmare and si proalysis to human body. Um, and
Speaker 1: then I shap and Disha. She's actually originally a Moroccan
Speaker 1: gen um that is known to possess men, creating a
Speaker 1: crack on their body. And the only way to not
Speaker 1: go insane when you're possessed by her is to participate
Speaker 1: with her and listen to her. So I use all
Speaker 1: these you know, really beautiful complex stories, and then I
Speaker 1: write new stories about them, and I turned them around.
Speaker 1: I kind of connect different aspects of you know that
Speaker 1: their their their power UM into different uh contemporary issues
Speaker 1: and topics and also kind of these like futuristic alternative
Speaker 1: reimagination of it's possible and the world. You've coined this
Speaker 1: term refiguring, which I read about and you said refiguring
Speaker 1: is about activation and preservation. Can you talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about refiguring and UM when you when you think
Speaker 1: about refiguring, when you go about it is the content
Speaker 1: because I know, I mean a lot of your work
Speaker 1: is UM. It has a social political UM aspect to it. UM.
Speaker 1: I know in this exhibit where to talk about specifically
Speaker 1: have some I mean, you just turned the story of
Speaker 1: yah Juj Madjuj on its head for me, UM, but
Speaker 1: you know a lot of it visibly like um colonization
Speaker 1: and imperialism. But also are you also doing refiguring within
Speaker 1: kind of your own cultural context? UM? Yeah, I mean absolutely.
Speaker 1: I think the most important aspect of that is the
Speaker 1: refiguration of UM. This this this figure of the female
Speaker 1: monstrous female figure which is known usually as like negative
Speaker 1: or or mean, which is kind of like you can
Speaker 1: compare it to you know, the figure of the witch
Speaker 1: um in in like Western literature and like kind of
Speaker 1: like cultural productions which has been turned around through like
Speaker 1: different feminist movements as something that instead of like being
Speaker 1: considered you know, like this like figure off an old
Speaker 1: ugly woman, uh, into you know, like a kind of
Speaker 1: witchcraft movement, which is like empower empowerment for like women
Speaker 1: to turn around that figure. So that's something I'm doing
Speaker 1: within the cultural context of these um stories and also
Speaker 1: the figures themselves, which is too you know, especially like
Speaker 1: I mean, I can give you like an example with
Speaker 1: let's say, the laughing snake, which I am kind of
Speaker 1: turning around this idea that her her death because of
Speaker 1: her laughter is considered a weakness, um, and I'm saying
Speaker 1: that actually that position that she's taking is a position
Speaker 1: of um, you know, empowerment, because she's taking away her
Speaker 1: reflection from the mirror that is held by these men,
Speaker 1: as you see in this like old illustrations in two
Speaker 1: different resources. Um. And kind of then I used that
Speaker 1: to tell a more contemporary story of growing up in
Speaker 1: Iran and dealing with sexual harassment and you know, like
Speaker 1: trying to figure out my body as a woman and
Speaker 1: thinking about sexual desire and so kind of again trying
Speaker 1: to like to find ownership of my body as a woman.
Speaker 1: But also it's it's an experience that is very collective
Speaker 1: in terms of like all when growing upment in in
Speaker 1: Iran can can connect to these stories and these experiences
Speaker 1: within spirit harassment, but also in a wider again um
Speaker 1: connection to it. It's it's something that all women can
Speaker 1: connect to and with in in different levels. So you
Speaker 1: interpret the laughter, which actually when I first heard about
Speaker 1: the story, I also kind of did as something that
Speaker 1: was empowering. Yes, absolutely, because because you know, the way
Speaker 1: it's I feel like sometimes it's told is more of
Speaker 1: you know, she laughs and then she dies and that's
Speaker 1: the end and they find a way to kill her.
Speaker 1: But then again for me, she makes the decision had
Speaker 1: laughter as a respond to what they're doing is like, um,
Speaker 1: you know, very conscious decision of how to respond to
Speaker 1: to that reflection that that she's witnessing being held by
Speaker 1: these men. Um. Yeah. So and I and again like
Speaker 1: this idea of refiguration or turning around power structures is
Speaker 1: something that I became really interested in within this project
Speaker 1: and how I can't do that through specifically also storytelling
Speaker 1: and a narrative. UM that has political cultural components to it. Um,
Speaker 1: I want to talk about boots, I thought, and I've
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time on your website. I've watched
Speaker 1: pretty which all the videos on there, and so the
Speaker 1: boos are and they're also called al jathoom and they
Speaker 1: are known to be kind of a race of gin,
Speaker 1: kind of a category of gin that bring different um
Speaker 1: sicknesses and trauma and nightmares. And the depiction is can
Speaker 1: be quite frightening. Um, this gin is it looks like
Speaker 1: there kind of this hovering above a human being in
Speaker 1: in some of the illustrations I've seen as a person
Speaker 1: sleeps um bringing nightmares to them. But your narration as
Speaker 1: it relates to this figure was um just really I
Speaker 1: mean it was kind of um, I don't know, I
Speaker 1: I it really did bring me to tears because your
Speaker 1: narration is about the story of your birth and the
Speaker 1: story of you waiting for your mother as a child
Speaker 1: to land every time she flew. So could you tell
Speaker 1: us about that story and how um, how this this
Speaker 1: the gaboos um lore resonates with it. Um. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I called boost was one of the figures that I
Speaker 1: had come across with within my research and always kind
Speaker 1: of like Helbert somewhere in my head to kind of
Speaker 1: come back to. And actually she's the last figure from
Speaker 1: this series that I worked on. Um So, as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: car boost is known as a gen that brings um
Speaker 1: nightmare but also specifically sleep proalysis to human body. Um so.
Speaker 1: We also said in far seats also known as back deck,
Speaker 1: which is kind of like known as this thing that
Speaker 1: kind of you know, sits on your chest and one
Speaker 1: that you move um and so you know, I kind
Speaker 1: of started doing a lot of research first, like within
Speaker 1: also like the scientific aspect of it, like what happens
Speaker 1: when you experienced sleep paralysis. I don't know if you've
Speaker 1: ever experienced that. Have you ever experienced sleep paralysis? I
Speaker 1: have not, but my husband has, and he has described
Speaker 1: it um as a gin to me, that's what he
Speaker 1: believes it was. It's yeah, it's a very I've experienced
Speaker 1: it um three times in my life, and I think
Speaker 1: like most of those three times I was really like
Speaker 1: stressed for like different reasons. And they say kind of
Speaker 1: like from the scientific aspect of its stress also like
Speaker 1: has you know, very kind of direct relationship to how
Speaker 1: you experience this and why you experience it? But that
Speaker 1: the gin experience that your your husband is talking about
Speaker 1: is actually also very present in a way that that
Speaker 1: that you experienced the paralysis when you're sleeping. My first
Speaker 1: time that I had experienced it, I I literally saw
Speaker 1: someone opening the window, but I saw myself seeing them.
Speaker 1: So that's another thing that happens again within what happens
Speaker 1: in your brain if you study it within scientific research,
Speaker 1: is that you you become an image and then you
Speaker 1: will be standing outside of that image then watching yourself.
Speaker 1: And I experienced it completely like that, and that's really
Speaker 1: scary because you see yourself not being able to move
Speaker 1: while you're awake. Um So, anyway, I've been always like
Speaker 1: fascinated by that because I also had like this personal
Speaker 1: experience and I asked people sometimes you know about like
Speaker 1: have your experiences, What was your experience with sleep parallels
Speaker 1: if you did? Um So thinking about that and thinking
Speaker 1: about kind of like basically trauma, right, A lot of
Speaker 1: papers written on SAP parallelsis, as I said, is connected
Speaker 1: to stress and trauma. And so I was like thinking
Speaker 1: about trauma and I was like doing like a lot
Speaker 1: of research in this um recent scientific also like research
Speaker 1: that is this idea of intergenerational trauma, which is that
Speaker 1: UM trauma stays in your DNA basically UM, and it
Speaker 1: can be passed on within generations. Some people also call
Speaker 1: it like blood memory, you know, so like the experience
Speaker 1: of enslaved people, let's say, to experience of war, to
Speaker 1: like other experiences that has been experienced too, again differ
Speaker 1: different generations. It can be passed on that even if
Speaker 1: you don't experience it yourself as a new generation, it's
Speaker 1: still kind of stays within your DNA and your blood memory.
Speaker 1: So I was fascinated by those this this These are
Speaker 1: again like newer research UM and scientific studies, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to somehow connect this relationship between trauma into generational
Speaker 1: trauma too. Also my ideas of you know, when we
Speaker 1: experienced into inter general trauma, like as a as a
Speaker 1: person you know who is like now, like thirty five,
Speaker 1: I think about birthing a lot, and I think about
Speaker 1: children a lot, but also not wanting to have my
Speaker 1: own my own child UM. And so I connect to
Speaker 1: the story to like four generations of women, so my grandmother,
Speaker 1: my mother, and myself and and imagined monsters like gen
Speaker 1: like daughter UM. And then we all in different parts
Speaker 1: of this VR film, we tell different stories about motherhood
Speaker 1: and war and different different trauma and different encounter with
Speaker 1: gin So and all of this happens in a in
Speaker 1: a bath house. As I said at the beginning of
Speaker 1: this conversation, UM, my grandmother always talked about bath houses
Speaker 1: and also public bath houses at a time were really
Speaker 1: important social spaces for women and intimacy between ways that
Speaker 1: women would go and spend hours, you know, at a
Speaker 1: at a bath house to bath, but also to hang
Speaker 1: out and sing and gossip. Um. So this space of
Speaker 1: intimacy was something I wanted to bring together, this four
Speaker 1: generation of women for us to talk about different relationship
Speaker 1: we had we've had with um trauma and then war
Speaker 1: being a big part of me growing up in Iran.
Speaker 1: And like this diary that I my mom gave me
Speaker 1: when I was around sixteen or seventeen that she wrote
Speaker 1: during um Irani Rock War when she was pregnant with
Speaker 1: my sister Um and somewhere in it she talks about
Speaker 1: how she feels guilty for giving birth to my sister
Speaker 1: and she doesn't know if it's a right decision and
Speaker 1: if it's a cruel decision. UM. And so that always
Speaker 1: stayed with me, you know, as a teenager. It always
Speaker 1: stayed with me because I would also kind of um
Speaker 1: as my my, my, my parents are like this is
Speaker 1: um and saying that how could your generation give birth
Speaker 1: to this many kids? Because the eight years of War
Speaker 1: had actually the highest rate of birth um and you know,
Speaker 1: again like connecting that to my own um experience stuff
Speaker 1: thinking about motherhood, but like rethinking motherhood and thinking about
Speaker 1: birthing as something that could be you know, birth justice
Speaker 1: is a specific word that I use in that narrative
Speaker 1: which you talk about that which is not just I
Speaker 1: mean the definition of birth justice is having the choice
Speaker 1: um of you know, as as a woman having a
Speaker 1: choice of when with who and um let's see when
Speaker 1: with who? And I'll say that again in a second.
Speaker 1: But I'm trying to what is it like who? You know,
Speaker 1: let's see, I believe you said where. I guess it
Speaker 1: is where. Yeah, that makes sense, okay, so let me
Speaker 1: let me say that again. UM. So this I came
Speaker 1: across this you know, kind of very specific definition of
Speaker 1: birth justice, which is that as a woman having the
Speaker 1: option to choose when with home and where to give birth? Um.
Speaker 1: And I added to that, what to give birth to
Speaker 1: UM you know, as my own kind of imagined way
Speaker 1: of thinking about how to break through this intergenerational trauma cycle,
Speaker 1: right um and kind of like the only way in it,
Speaker 1: I say, the only way to to to to break
Speaker 1: through this cycle is to reimagine the possibilities of what
Speaker 1: we give birth to UM. And in this you know,
Speaker 1: fictional story that I'm kind of building within the VR film,
Speaker 1: I'm ear thing kind of like a monstrous gen mix
Speaker 1: of like you know, a child UM that is human
Speaker 1: and non human at a time, but kind of again, uh,
Speaker 1: within thinking about monstrosity as something that can be a
Speaker 1: position of empowerment, like embracing that that that monstrosity or
Speaker 1: the figure of the gin um this this child is
Speaker 1: able to see the future for us and help us
Speaker 1: to build an alternative kind of kind of future, you know. UM.
Speaker 1: So it's again sits between like a real and real
Speaker 1: fictional and nonfictional more like documentary style UM film. But
Speaker 1: for me um as as you as you also like
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, it's kind of like finding these stories and
Speaker 1: then connecting them to something that is very personal and
Speaker 1: also at the same time UM you know again can
Speaker 1: be expanded to other other people's experiences. Well, that film
Speaker 1: and um that particular exactly. I think it was jarring
Speaker 1: to me in many ways. Also um hearing the voice
Speaker 1: that the childlike monster voice. Uh. You know, there's a
Speaker 1: real frightening aspect of course. I mean, like you know,
Speaker 1: Gin are supposed to be frightening. They inspire fear in us. Um,
Speaker 1: but I I feel like you're using that fear in
Speaker 1: a very different way. UM. Can you talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about what you think whether there's instrumental whether you
Speaker 1: you are instrumentalizing the fear uh in a specific way
Speaker 1: to to mean something else that not necessarily like the
Speaker 1: fear means that these monstrous beings um are evil necessary
Speaker 1: because there's a strong connection between Gin evil, especially the
Speaker 1: Gin that we are told if the Gin encounter human beings, um,
Speaker 1: the lores and those are definitely evil Gin. Yes, Um, yes,
Speaker 1: So I mean that's a really great question because the
Speaker 1: way that I have tried to try to build this
Speaker 1: project and kind of build build and refigure these these
Speaker 1: stories and figures is to find perhaps like a balance
Speaker 1: between um, this this hybrid aspect of what Jin are.
Speaker 1: So they're both feared uh and honored, right, so they can.
Speaker 1: They can. They can be your friend and at the
Speaker 1: same time your enemy. Um, you can. You can befriend
Speaker 1: them and use their power. Like that's what they're known as.
Speaker 1: Right If if you know how to like befriend the
Speaker 1: gin and use their power, you can use that power
Speaker 1: to possess other other beings are like make some something
Speaker 1: happen within the world, right, Um. But also you can
Speaker 1: be possessed by them. So there's always this sort of
Speaker 1: gray area with the figure of the Gin um and
Speaker 1: even in the Koran when they're talked about. You know,
Speaker 1: we have the figure of the angel that obeys and
Speaker 1: then the double that disobeys and um. Like humans, Gin
Speaker 1: have the will to obey or disobey um and that's
Speaker 1: something that made them, made made working with the figure
Speaker 1: of the Gin really interesting from my research and and
Speaker 1: and this body of work. UM. So yeah, I try
Speaker 1: to kind of build a space where they're feared, but
Speaker 1: at the same time we're in we want to know them,
Speaker 1: we want to get to know that, we want to
Speaker 1: enter their world and within the as I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: the kind of the feminist movements and the feminism refiguration
Speaker 1: of them. UM. I try to like use use their
Speaker 1: figures UM as a way to again like find a
Speaker 1: space for the empowerment of women and not non binary
Speaker 1: people UM, et cetera. So it's it's really a mix
Speaker 1: of these worlds that I tried to bring together UM
Speaker 1: and also channel this power of after gin um for
Speaker 1: our empowerment. We'll be right back after the short break.
Speaker 1: One of the questions that I pose in there's one
Speaker 1: specific episode that focuses on the female gin and one
Speaker 1: of the one of those gin that's heavily focused on
Speaker 1: a check and who was really rich? I mean, there's
Speaker 1: so much tradition around that figure UM and but not
Speaker 1: the other ones that you actually have included your exhibit.
Speaker 1: But the question one of the questions I posed as
Speaker 1: you know, as I was reading these stories, I wondered,
Speaker 1: you know, I can see it playing both ways with
Speaker 1: these stories UM, which in large part of these in
Speaker 1: South Asian culture, you do not we don't. We don't
Speaker 1: have access to stories of female gen anymore. These don't
Speaker 1: exist anymore. I've never heard them anymore unless they are
Speaker 1: like an unnamed which type of figure right UM or
Speaker 1: something that's not as UM I guess, not not as
Speaker 1: powerful as a second or a little bit or other
Speaker 1: kinds of female figures. But I've always wondered, um, we're
Speaker 1: were the were the perceptions around female gin? Do you
Speaker 1: think a reflection of how society viewed viewed women? You don't.
Speaker 1: We we have this. I mean, it's not uncommon to
Speaker 1: hear in in a lot of Muslim cultures that, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: women are bent a little crooked, like the rib of
Speaker 1: Adam because they come from the rib of atoms. So
Speaker 1: there's something a little nefarious about women. Or I wondered,
Speaker 1: are these stories of gin who, these female gin who
Speaker 1: have so much power and can inspire so much fear?
Speaker 1: Are these actually projections of the women at the time
Speaker 1: themselves saying this is what we are capable of, and
Speaker 1: you should hold a little fear and love and respect
Speaker 1: all the same time. Yeah, I'd like to, you know,
Speaker 1: I like to think that's why a big part of
Speaker 1: it the the one that you just mentioned. But also
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it's a combination of two pretty much,
Speaker 1: you know, within looking at a lot of these stories
Speaker 1: and kind of like also again, like one thing I've
Speaker 1: I've been doing and researching is um also apparel Um
Speaker 1: World of Um Western like figures or methodologies and how
Speaker 1: they've been used within different like feminist movements, right, like
Speaker 1: as I mentioned that the figure of the witch or
Speaker 1: um the you know, we have the figure of the zombies,
Speaker 1: which can be male or female, but definitely I think
Speaker 1: um something that I have been fascinated by is um
Speaker 1: that kind of patriarchal you know, heaviness of like how
Speaker 1: how these figures are like not just that women are
Speaker 1: like you know from as you say, there's like that
Speaker 1: that's saying that women actually within some Islamic cultures and
Speaker 1: thinking that are like even a considered half of men
Speaker 1: right there, that incomplete and actually, to be fair, look,
Speaker 1: it's not just mean the all the Abrahamic I mean
Speaker 1: you know original sin, right, I mean like Christianity and Judaism.
Speaker 1: It's exists, I was even not Abrahamic cultures, but certainly
Speaker 1: absolutely exactly Like so that's my my research within like
Speaker 1: other cultures and studies shows exactly what you're saying. That
Speaker 1: like that that like patriarchal kind of like perspective towards
Speaker 1: like women, their madness, they're like hysteria. Right, There's a
Speaker 1: long history of hysteria and patriarchy within like women having
Speaker 1: this hysteria or madness for different reasons. When you're like,
Speaker 1: there's a whole Wikipedia of asia and hysteria. Well, America
Speaker 1: still thinks that a woman is not emotionally stable enough
Speaker 1: to become presidents. So yeah, and we have that within
Speaker 1: you know, any iron for example, you can be a
Speaker 1: judge as a woman because you are too emotional to
Speaker 1: be able to like judge with with logic basically. So yeah,
Speaker 1: So I want to tell I have to say this.
Speaker 1: You know, I am I'm always uh and you know,
Speaker 1: I'm an observant Muslim um, and but I have had
Speaker 1: to rediscover my faith um in the last fifteen twenty
Speaker 1: years because I realized that the gatekeepers who were teaching
Speaker 1: us things have a very specific perspective, have a you know,
Speaker 1: it's just the male perspective, as a very patriarchal, misogynistic perspective,
Speaker 1: and so retelling the stories in a way that actually
Speaker 1: makes sense to the I would say the spirit of
Speaker 1: what I believe is a lot of faith is about
Speaker 1: has really opened up a lot of doors for me.
Speaker 1: But this retelling of yeah Jewish magut, I cannot tell you.
Speaker 1: I can't stop thinking about this and I'm going to
Speaker 1: talk about this with every other person I meet, um,
Speaker 1: but for our listeners, just uh, you might you might
Speaker 1: not be familiar with your judge, but you might be
Speaker 1: familiar with Gog and Magogue, which is found in the
Speaker 1: Biblical telling and the Talmudic telling. To telling and Gog
Speaker 1: and Magogue are a race of beings that, it is said,
Speaker 1: at least um I guess to be more specifically in
Speaker 1: the Islamic tradition, that they are basically hidden behind a wall.
Speaker 1: They have they they cause chaos. They are these beings
Speaker 1: that if they're unleashed into the world they'll destroy it.
Speaker 1: So for centuries and millennia they have been buried behind
Speaker 1: this wall. Every single day they chip away at this wall,
Speaker 1: and at the end of the day they give up
Speaker 1: and say, well, we can't, we just can't get through.
Speaker 1: But everythingle The next day they start over again, and
Speaker 1: the as the story goes towards the end of time, um,
Speaker 1: towards the day of judgment, at one point they're going
Speaker 1: to breach the wall and completely be unleashed on this world.
Speaker 1: But oh my gosh, you have to tell me how
Speaker 1: you imagine the story in your own words. Absolutely, yeah,
Speaker 1: so I came actually across UM this story sometime after
Speaker 1: UH the Muslim band or travel band have happened in
Speaker 1: the US, and I'm my stuff was also affected by it.
Speaker 1: At a time, UM, I had left the US for
Speaker 1: UM a week of exhibitions and conference that I was
Speaker 1: part of in Berlin, in Germany, and then the band happened.
Speaker 1: And at a time I had UM an Iranian passport
Speaker 1: and a green card, and if some of you might remember,
Speaker 1: at the beginning a green card holders were also like
Speaker 1: included UH with the with the band and from if
Speaker 1: you were from these six band countries. UM. So I
Speaker 1: it was like such a strange, complicated moment where I
Speaker 1: just didn't know if I could come back to the US,
Speaker 1: and you know I have. I have lived here for
Speaker 1: like now around eleven twelve years, and so that was
Speaker 1: like a really intense moment of realizing everything I've built
Speaker 1: here could just go go to zero. But obviously I
Speaker 1: was privileged enough to have the green card and be
Speaker 1: able to come back. While this story up to today,
Speaker 1: four years later, almost UH is very relevant to the
Speaker 1: lives of many people who are trying to come to
Speaker 1: this country for for different reasons, as immigrants, refugees, etcetera. Um,
Speaker 1: And so I came across the story of yahujuj Um
Speaker 1: and you know this, this image of the wall was
Speaker 1: something that was just stuck in my head because it
Speaker 1: talks about the wall as something that they get these
Speaker 1: figure zolor Aarin. In some texts they say it's Um
Speaker 1: Alexander the Great Um to build this wall. Um and
Speaker 1: these the people of the city asked for this wall
Speaker 1: to be built to keep yah jud majus out because
Speaker 1: they present chaos, as you also mentioned, Um. And so
Speaker 1: reading I started to do a lot of research around it,
Speaker 1: like reading different interpretations of this story, not just within
Speaker 1: you know, the Islamic text itself, but but different interpretations
Speaker 1: of Um. Different you know uh I guess um Muslim
Speaker 1: scholars or just just people reading this story and coming
Speaker 1: up with their own interpretation of what this means. And
Speaker 1: one thing that was really fascinating to me is kind
Speaker 1: of these these these different time zones and timelines of
Speaker 1: how yeah judge magic or who yeah judge major had
Speaker 1: been interpreted at as so somewhere like oh they were um,
Speaker 1: you know, Turkish people or Mongolians who who attacked Iran
Speaker 1: somewhere like you know, again saying that they represent Israel.
Speaker 1: Um and you know, and again many many other interpretations
Speaker 1: of them. But one thing that became very obvious to
Speaker 1: me is how through many many centuries of this story
Speaker 1: being interpreted, it shows that we always have found this
Speaker 1: figure of the other, right or the other as a
Speaker 1: way to make a monster of So what basically someone
Speaker 1: like Trump calls the bad people um and you know,
Speaker 1: the ones that can put America in danger or like
Speaker 1: we don't want to let them come in because of rapists,
Speaker 1: that they're the worst ones, right, absolutely, yeah, So how
Speaker 1: through this monstrosity of these people, right, like making a
Speaker 1: monster of these people? Um, through so many years, including
Speaker 1: amoment we're living, these the other have been um justified
Speaker 1: as those we need to keep out, those we need
Speaker 1: to ban, those we need to reject and um. The
Speaker 1: Islamic interpretation is that when the age come and break
Speaker 1: through the wall, we're going to You also mentioned experienced
Speaker 1: some kind of ending, and as you know, within Islamic studies, UM,
Speaker 1: that ending is is both dystopian and in some ways utopian,
Speaker 1: because the ending itself is dystopian, but it will it
Speaker 1: will result to basically something, um, you know that we
Speaker 1: want that is better, right, So, and and they use
Speaker 1: this very specific term which is the end of time
Speaker 1: that they doesn't say like and they kind of I
Speaker 1: mean I read a lot about that specific frame, which
Speaker 1: is the end of time. And yeah, that was just
Speaker 1: really powerful for me because I was like, what would
Speaker 1: the end of this time mean to us right now,
Speaker 1: as you know, as Muslim, as people from you know,
Speaker 1: even if you're not. I mean, it's about nationality at
Speaker 1: this point, right if you're from Ivan, but whatever your
Speaker 1: religion is, and other other countries that are also bound
Speaker 1: as well. Um, So it's like what, you know, what
Speaker 1: what would that end mean? And also for all these
Speaker 1: other people you know, we are now. In the past
Speaker 1: weeks there has been a lot of um conversations and
Speaker 1: kind of protest etcetera, um about you know, um, black
Speaker 1: people and and the struggle of black people in America
Speaker 1: and and the history of slavery, etcetera. So it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter how your other within this context of history, but
Speaker 1: the fact that the otherness it has is almost always
Speaker 1: linked to this monstrosity was something that was you know,
Speaker 1: really fascinating to me. So I turned around again like
Speaker 1: that that image and use the power of the chaos,
Speaker 1: the monstrous, the one that is the other um as
Speaker 1: a way to actually break through the wall and then
Speaker 1: wish for some some other, some, some new beginning, another world,
Speaker 1: an alternative reality that we can live in that is
Speaker 1: not whatever it is that we're experiencing. Now, you're telling
Speaker 1: us that the chaos that we fear, or that's feared
Speaker 1: by certain powers, um, we ourselves have internalized fear of
Speaker 1: that chaos. When that chaos itself could bring the end
Speaker 1: of a time that's terrible for those of us who
Speaker 1: are mothered um and could could usher in, you know,
Speaker 1: whatever comes after the end of this time. UM. And
Speaker 1: it's just such a uh an eye opening. And I'm,
Speaker 1: like I said, I'm still I have to think about
Speaker 1: this for a long time and talk about this for
Speaker 1: a lot of people. But I also thought it was
Speaker 1: really wonderful that you collectively imagine yeah, jujih Ma Juja
Speaker 1: as this female figure um and that and you said
Speaker 1: that she felt the burden of her people's exhaustion upon
Speaker 1: her shoulders, the exhaustion of constantly trying to break through
Speaker 1: the wall, um and yet not giving up. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean, when I was writing it, it was again
Speaker 1: very personal, but I was like horrified and at the
Speaker 1: same time I knew that I have the privileges that
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't have, so kind of like
Speaker 1: thinking about yeah, us thinking about that story as a
Speaker 1: story that becomes a poor doll in talking about and
Speaker 1: um representing the pain of all these people who are
Speaker 1: who are who are being other than being banned and
Speaker 1: being rejected literally most times for no reason. So um,
Speaker 1: that was something that became yeah, very heartbreaking and at
Speaker 1: the same time painful to think about and write about.
Speaker 1: It just really made me think about who we are,
Speaker 1: what or who we are taught to fear um, and
Speaker 1: to examine that a little more closely, And it really
Speaker 1: brought to mind h and how you know, right right
Speaker 1: post um, the post Civil War where there was like
Speaker 1: this explosion of UM fear around black men attacking white
Speaker 1: women and um, right like you know, with with birth
Speaker 1: of a national movies, all kinds of media, newspapers, um,
Speaker 1: And how we are systematically taught to fear something unquestioning,
Speaker 1: without question And so this you have taught me to
Speaker 1: question maybe what it is that we've been taught to
Speaker 1: fear UM. And I think one of the one of
Speaker 1: the things I love about how you framed this entire
Speaker 1: UM project is that, UM, the female jin not only
Speaker 1: has seen the unknown and the known, but she's embraced
Speaker 1: being the other absolutely and and that's that's something that
Speaker 1: I also try to use on my daily life and
Speaker 1: my practice of UM not shying away from, you know,
Speaker 1: wanting to constantly justify myself that I'm worthy, I'm good,
Speaker 1: and I you know, because of this reason or that reason,
Speaker 1: I am worthy of either you know, UM living in
Speaker 1: this country or like having access to certain kind of resources,
Speaker 1: et cetera. UM. But kind of again like rather UM
Speaker 1: embracing the otherness and using it UM as a way
Speaker 1: to to to criticize that that very very thing that
Speaker 1: that has been UM, you know again mothering us. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna end with one last question for you, UM,
Speaker 1: but before that, I just to say thank you for
Speaker 1: this incredibly illuminating conversation for your work. I'm going to
Speaker 1: continue to follow it. I'm so excited to have discovered it. UH,
Speaker 1: And we will point all our listeners and in that
Speaker 1: direction too, so they can continue to follow you. And
Speaker 1: my last question for you is this. Do you believe
Speaker 1: you have ever personally had an experience with jin Um?
Speaker 1: I think that the ones however you might think of
Speaker 1: jin I mean, it doesn't have to it can be
Speaker 1: whatever you jin is in your imagination, let me clear, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, so there are two things I can say.
Speaker 1: One is that the actual experiences of that I was
Speaker 1: telling you of this kind of nightmare sleep paralysis which
Speaker 1: you literally feel like there is it's not just like
Speaker 1: a nightmare, that there is another third person with you
Speaker 1: in that space, right, So it's like you and the
Speaker 1: GIN and also something else you know with with the GIN.
Speaker 1: So it's that experience of the sleep paralysis has been
Speaker 1: really intense and has stayed with me always. Um, and
Speaker 1: when since I also start working on this project. You know, again,
Speaker 1: I grew up anyone with a lot of these gen
Speaker 1: related stories, etcetera. But um, it was not until when
Speaker 1: I started to do this body of work. She was
Speaker 1: just the unknown that I like really had to, you know,
Speaker 1: spend a lot of hours researching. And also that that
Speaker 1: caused like very real relationships that I had built with
Speaker 1: each of each of these figures, right, like I can
Speaker 1: I sometimes call them like my children. These like five
Speaker 1: figures that that I you know, mentioned their names earlier
Speaker 1: that I have worked on because to work on each
Speaker 1: of them, I had to spend like hours not just
Speaker 1: researching their history and the stories told about them, but
Speaker 1: also like writing about them and really trying to like
Speaker 1: imagine this thing as something that I'm like using its
Speaker 1: power to to to to do something else with. Right,
Speaker 1: and this like really became yeah, like a like a
Speaker 1: connection that I never thought I would I would find
Speaker 1: with something that I'm creating this intensely. Um but um,
Speaker 1: this is this is all like in that sense very
Speaker 1: like new to me. Um. So yeah, I I kind
Speaker 1: of see them not just as you say, like I'm
Speaker 1: able to imagine them also in many other forms and
Speaker 1: like many many many other ways of their their presence
Speaker 1: within like my personal life as well as what they
Speaker 1: can do for the world and with the world. And
Speaker 1: kind of last thing I want to mention is that
Speaker 1: we really need a figure like the gen I I think,
Speaker 1: especially within like these kind of um feminist movements and
Speaker 1: thinking about women and uh kind of saying kind of
Speaker 1: trying to like find something away or like different from
Speaker 1: the dominant perhaps like Western white feminism movements for me,
Speaker 1: the image of the gin is something that you know,
Speaker 1: I I have found it so powerful because also it's
Speaker 1: something that is for us. But one thing I say
Speaker 1: that you know, to build this future for us but
Speaker 1: by us, right um, And that's something that I think
Speaker 1: they can do. And so that means that their their presence.
Speaker 1: When this project is almost done, she will since unknown,
Speaker 1: but I think their presence in my in my life
Speaker 1: will um stay in many serious ways because I will
Speaker 1: always think about them again as portals, as channels, as
Speaker 1: as as friends and allies and allies that can help
Speaker 1: us get through whatever it is that we're trying to
Speaker 1: get through as as we struggle this this fair moment.
Speaker 1: Thanks for checking out this week's episode and conversation. If
Speaker 1: you want to learn more about more Machine and her work,
Speaker 1: you can find her on Twitter at the handle at
Speaker 1: Mo Machine. It is spelled m o r e h
Speaker 1: A s h i en her website as m O
Speaker 1: r e h s h I n dot com, watching
Speaker 1: dot com. And the exhibit that we talked so extensively
Speaker 1: about is called She Who Sees the Unknown, and you
Speaker 1: can find her the whole website about the entire project
Speaker 1: at She Who sees the Unknown dot com. Absolutely check
Speaker 1: it out. UM, read the reading room, watch the videos.
Speaker 1: It's amazing. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much
Speaker 1: as I did. Now there are as many people in
Speaker 1: the world with jin stories as there are gin, so
Speaker 1: if you have one you'd like to share, make sure
Speaker 1: to email it to me at the Hidden Gin at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H E
Speaker 1: H I D d N d J I n N
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. And until next time, remember we
Speaker 1: are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a production of
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey.
Speaker 1: The podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah Chaudry and
Speaker 1: produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with executive producers
Speaker 1: Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our theme song
Speaker 1: was created by Patrick Quartets. For more podcasts from I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.