WEBVTT - She Who Sees The Unknown 0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:05.320 Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:31.040 Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.639 welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin. 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:38.400 The interviews in these episodes, you'll hear me talk to 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:41.720 people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences, 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.040 are drawn through the stories of Gin and draw lessons 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:49.680 from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:53.320 and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:56.080 how and why this series came about in a very 0:00:56.120 --> 0:01:01.480 personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy. 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.280 I am very excited to introduce my guest for you 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:07.880 this week and artists like no other that you have 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:12.520 ever known. Marchan Alari is an artist, activist, writer, and educator. 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:14.840 She was born and raised in Iran and moved to 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:17.440 the US in two thousand and seven, and her work 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.760 deals with the political and social and cultural contradictions that 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:24.200 we face every single day. She's an acclaimed artist, the 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.440 recipient of the Joan Mitchell Foundation Painters and Sculptors Grant, 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:31.720 the Sun Dance Institute, New Frontier International Fellowship, and Leading 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:34.319 Global Thinkers of two thousand and sixteen award by Foreign 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.880 Policy Magazine. Her work has been part of numerous exhibitions, festivals, 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:42.440 and workshops around the world, including the Whitney Museum of 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:46.479 American Art, Pompadou Center, Museum of Contemporary Art in Montreal, 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.320 the Tape Museum, the Queen's Museum, Powerhouse Museum, the Dallas 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.800 Museum of Art, and so many more. Now, I came 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:57.560 across Machine when I was researching female jams, and I 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:02.080 came across her incredible project called she Who Sees the Unknown. 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.560 And in this project more Sheen uses three D scanning, modeling, 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:11.359 and printing to recreate monstrous female and queer figures from 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:15.120 Middle Eastern origins. Believe me, this is a conversation you 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:19.840 don't want to miss. Thank you so much for joining us, 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:23.600 um Moha Shane. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:26.359 I have been fascinated with your work ever since I 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:29.960 discovered it earlier this year. Hi, thanks so much for 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:34.160 having me Rabbia, It's it's an honor. So um you 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.919 know I as you know you know. This UH Conversation 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.960 series is a companion to the ongoing series which will 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:43.800 which will have air by the time this this air 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:46.680 is UM called the Hidden Gin Podcast, and I drew 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:48.440 on a lot of different sources, and one of those 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.400 sources actually was the exhibit that I've found, and that's 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:53.920 how I discovered you called She who Sees the Unknown. 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.200 But before we get into that, I want to talk 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:58.720 a little bit about you say on your website, UM 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:02.200 about this exhibit that the Iranian traditions jin are fearsome 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:05.359 and honored, and that your upbringing in Iran was full 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:10.000 of ancient mythical narratives involving supernatural beings, and your bedtime 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:14.560 stories told to you by your grandmother often included gin. 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:16.920 So I wanted to ask you if you can tell 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:19.240 it a little bit about your upbringing, about your background 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:22.920 in Iran, and about the gin lore that you grew 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:28.280 up with. Yes, um So, I started to kind of 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.519 become interested in general since like three and a half 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:37.520 years ago, uh in these figures of monstrous female slash 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:41.720 genderless career figures in mythical stories UH that would origin 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:46.600 in West Asia or basically Middle Eastern UM ancient stories 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:51.480 and UM to kind of um give you a little 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.480 bit of I guess more summary of also like my 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:58.800 practice in relationship to that I. You know, I also 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.400 have been very interested in this relationship between technology and 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:06.400 history in that sense. So when I was doing this research, UM, 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.160 I was going through a lot of resources and books 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:13.600 and and material UM that would you know include this 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:18.640 this also like figure of of Gin within Islamic tradition studies. 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:23.080 And so that's when I when I became interested in 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:27.240 researching more um into the figure of the Gin. And 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:29.880 as you mentioned, it's a figure that I grew up 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:34.599 with in Iran. Whenever there were stories that kind of 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:38.360 were ghosts, these ghostly stories, et cetera, it would always 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.960 involve the figure of the Gin. And so a lot 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:44.760 of people who might have grown up in different countries 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:48.520 Islamic countries or Realistan countries probably also identify with this 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.880 that Jen is a figure that we grow up within 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:57.279 a lot of our our stories and time stories UM. 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.600 And at the same time that it's very feared as 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:03.680 a figu you're um, it's also very respected. So people 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:07.479 take certain kind of UM caution or like certain kind 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:11.760 of UH care in terms of the way they they 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.480 deal with the digen and the way that you shouldn't 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:20.600 interrupt certain spaces or you kind of can use different 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.440 methods as a way to not not be possessed by 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.360 by the gin. So, yeah, I'm gonna go on, please. 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.599 So for me, the figure of the Gin had this 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.840 personal relationship that I had with it, but at the 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:38.719 same time coming I was also like coming to it 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:44.159 from more of like a feminist perspective and feminism studies. 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:46.440 And that's something that I guess I can talk more 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.320 about later. Yeah, So, so I want to talk a 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.640 little bit about what your perspective on these stories were 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.400 as you grow up and maybe how that's changed, um 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.599 with adulthood. I also, you know, I grew up steep 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:00.520 kind of in this this this culture. Although my family 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:03.200 nobody totally told stories much, but you know, a couple 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.160 of Muslim kids get together and that's that was the 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.760 topic conversation often late at nights. Um, So, when when 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:12.080 you were being taught or told these stories where they 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:14.279 kind of like lessons that were being told to you, 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.960 or they told you to entertain or to maybe warn 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.760 you from certain behaviors, or was it taught to you 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:22.880 as something like this is real, Like you gotta take 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.720 this seriously. Um. I think it's a combination of a 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:29.240 couple of those things. You said, so most of it 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.560 as I as I. As you also mentioned, it was 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.279 told by my grandmother who lived with us, and you know, 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.040 I had a very close relationship too. And one of 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:41.200 the most vivid memories I have is um in a 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:45.040 in a summer and evening um almost like night, when 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:47.760 the stars were out, and it was me and two 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.719 of my my cousins who we all lived in the 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.200 same apartment building, and my grandmother was telling us about 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.800 her encounter with a gen um at a public bath 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.160 where she grew up, which is a village in Kurdistan 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.680 and west of Iran, and she was telling us, you 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:10.560 know how it was very common for women who would 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:14.680 go to these public bath houses to encounter gen And 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:17.120 one of the things that is also known or like 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.600 talked about about the gen is that they really like 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:24.080 spaces that are dark and humid. So basically, you know, 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:26.600 a place like a bath house is like a perfect 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.480 place for them to come and visit. So for me, 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:32.040 it was kind of like as a child, it was 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:35.280 a mixture of believing it and doubting it, like did 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:37.760 she really see it? Was it something else she saw that, 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:41.200 like she thought it's a gen um, But again like 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:45.000 because those stories get like repeated so much within different 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.800 people's experiences of encountering gen um. It's kind of like 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:53.320 becomes almost like an oral narrative of you know, a 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:58.200 relationship with this supernatural creature that is there and then 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:01.120 certain people encountered in certain or don't. And if you're 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:03.920 scared of it, then, as I mentioned earlier, you can 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:09.480 take certain actions um to to avoid it. Were you 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.680 ever aware and I wasn't aware until adulthood, and I did, 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.360 you know, my research kind of more deeply into into 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:21.160 this whole subject um that ginn or gendered um and 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:25.800 that there is a body of you know, folklore around 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:30.320 female gin in particular, or at least um people encounter 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:32.600 them as female gin. Was that something you were aware 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:34.480 of growing up or is that something you also learned 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:37.559 as you started doing your research into this project. Absolutely not. 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:41.760 My image of the gin as as this creature was 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:45.240 always male. And again this goes back to one of 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:48.400 the reasons I became really curious and also interested in 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.559 this this project that I worked on for for almost 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:56.120 four years. She was sees the unknown um which I 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.960 wanted to kind of find these female or almost genderless 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.400 uh stories and figures of of the Gin and also 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:07.800 like monstrous figures because UM also growing up in Iran 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:11.600 with a lot of mythical and you know, ancient stories 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.480 that are part of um our daily life but also 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:18.680 our you know school and like literature and education. Incredible 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.480 incredible stories. Yeah, and they're all always very you know, 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.840 all these figures are male. So I was wondering, like, 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.080 where are the female figures are mohere are the figures 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:32.480 that are perhaps like more and more queer, more like 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.080 a non binary in terms of like you know, gender 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.840 as like these things that you know in English were 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.440 like very specific about he and she, but in in 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.880 far Sea, actually there's no he or she for third person, right, 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.520 So I kind of like wanted to find also that 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:51.120 ambiguity within these these texts and material. And yeah, that's 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:55.839 that's how I came across so many female or generalist 0:09:56.360 --> 0:10:00.040 figures of of Gin that were illustrated in different books 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.520 and and resources and material that I had no idea about. 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.240 Can you tell us UM a little bit about the 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:09.760 the exhibit again, its titled She who Sees the Unknown? 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.160 About the kind of um like the medium that you 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:16.360 used for this exhibit, I mean it's and I wish 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:18.240 I could. I don't know where is it this being 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.680 displayed right now, by the way, So it's more of 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.960 like a project. I mean, it has been exhibited in 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:26.040 so many different places, but when you go up to 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.120 my website she posives you on that time. It's a 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:33.040 research based project that has many different components and elements, 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:37.439 from performance to these three D printed sculptures that I 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:43.400 recreate from illustrations I find in older material, books, etcetera. Um, 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.240 to these new texts and narratives that I write about 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:48.520 each of these figures that I choose to work with. 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.600 And then there's an archive aspect of it, and also 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:55.280 like a reading room that I have been also working 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.640 on as part of the project. So um yeah, the 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:03.079 project itself again has many many different components um. And 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.360 then the exhibition in time i've shown it, it has, 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.360 you know, taken many many different forms. But within the 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:13.160 research I've done, I've come across many many texts and 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.720 material and an illustrations, but I've chosen to focus on 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:21.880 five specific figures, which are Huma, who is a gin 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:26.440 who brings fever to human body. Yeah, Judge jug who 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.040 are these figures that are kind of like monsters gen 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:33.160 like that are spoken in the Qoran that represent chaos. 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:39.200 The Laughing Snake, which is uh known as you know, 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:45.600 a very like powerful kind of hybrid animal human female 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:50.400 human combination that is known as you know, this figure 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.880 that is very um strong and is going through all 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.560 these like towns and cities and killing people and eating 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:58.440 all the animals, and no one can win a war 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:02.320 with her until um someone comes and say the only 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:04.000 way to kill her is to hold a mirror in 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:06.760 front of her, and when she sees her reflection, she 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.360 starts laughing, and she laughs for days and nights until 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:14.680 she dies from the laughter um. And then Caboos, which 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.280 is a gen that is known as a gen that 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:22.000 brings nightmare and si proalysis to human body. Um, and 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:25.080 then I shap and Disha. She's actually originally a Moroccan 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:29.360 gen um that is known to possess men, creating a 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:31.880 crack on their body. And the only way to not 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:35.320 go insane when you're possessed by her is to participate 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.800 with her and listen to her. So I use all 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:41.719 these you know, really beautiful complex stories, and then I 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:44.319 write new stories about them, and I turned them around. 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.760 I kind of connect different aspects of you know that 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:54.880 their their their power UM into different uh contemporary issues 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:58.160 and topics and also kind of these like futuristic alternative 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:02.200 reimagination of it's possible and the world. You've coined this 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.960 term refiguring, which I read about and you said refiguring 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.360 is about activation and preservation. Can you talk a little 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:13.760 bit about refiguring and UM when you when you think 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.120 about refiguring, when you go about it is the content 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:18.720 because I know, I mean a lot of your work 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:24.440 is UM. It has a social political UM aspect to it. UM. 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.439 I know in this exhibit where to talk about specifically 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.760 have some I mean, you just turned the story of 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.320 yah Juj Madjuj on its head for me, UM, but 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:36.559 you know a lot of it visibly like um colonization 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:40.520 and imperialism. But also are you also doing refiguring within 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:45.599 kind of your own cultural context? UM? Yeah, I mean absolutely. 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:49.480 I think the most important aspect of that is the 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:56.240 refiguration of UM. This this this figure of the female 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:01.600 monstrous female figure which is known usually as like negative 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.199 or or mean, which is kind of like you can 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.360 compare it to you know, the figure of the witch 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:11.719 um in in like Western literature and like kind of 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:15.480 like cultural productions which has been turned around through like 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:19.200 different feminist movements as something that instead of like being 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.960 considered you know, like this like figure off an old 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:26.640 ugly woman, uh, into you know, like a kind of 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:30.840 witchcraft movement, which is like empower empowerment for like women 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.320 to turn around that figure. So that's something I'm doing 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:38.680 within the cultural context of these um stories and also 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:43.360 the figures themselves, which is too you know, especially like 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:45.000 I mean, I can give you like an example with 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.720 let's say, the laughing snake, which I am kind of 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:52.640 turning around this idea that her her death because of 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:56.400 her laughter is considered a weakness, um, and I'm saying 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:01.200 that actually that position that she's taking is a position 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:05.040 of um, you know, empowerment, because she's taking away her 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.880 reflection from the mirror that is held by these men, 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.000 as you see in this like old illustrations in two 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:15.600 different resources. Um. And kind of then I used that 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.920 to tell a more contemporary story of growing up in 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:22.800 Iran and dealing with sexual harassment and you know, like 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:24.680 trying to figure out my body as a woman and 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:29.040 thinking about sexual desire and so kind of again trying 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:33.160 to like to find ownership of my body as a woman. 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.239 But also it's it's an experience that is very collective 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.200 in terms of like all when growing upment in in 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.880 Iran can can connect to these stories and these experiences 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:47.440 within spirit harassment, but also in a wider again um 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:51.280 connection to it. It's it's something that all women can 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:55.760 connect to and with in in different levels. So you 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.240 interpret the laughter, which actually when I first heard about 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.440 the story, I also kind of did as something that 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:07.360 was empowering. Yes, absolutely, because because you know, the way 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:10.080 it's I feel like sometimes it's told is more of 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:12.360 you know, she laughs and then she dies and that's 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.360 the end and they find a way to kill her. 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:19.800 But then again for me, she makes the decision had 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:23.800 laughter as a respond to what they're doing is like, um, 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:28.240 you know, very conscious decision of how to respond to 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:31.920 to that reflection that that she's witnessing being held by 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.040 these men. Um. Yeah. So and I and again like 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.880 this idea of refiguration or turning around power structures is 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.720 something that I became really interested in within this project 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.120 and how I can't do that through specifically also storytelling 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:52.040 and a narrative. UM that has political cultural components to it. Um, 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:56.200 I want to talk about boots, I thought, and I've 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.120 spent a lot of time on your website. I've watched 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:00.680 pretty which all the videos on there, and so the 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.400 boos are and they're also called al jathoom and they 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:06.560 are known to be kind of a race of gin, 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.960 kind of a category of gin that bring different um 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:14.520 sicknesses and trauma and nightmares. And the depiction is can 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.879 be quite frightening. Um, this gin is it looks like 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:22.639 there kind of this hovering above a human being in 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.359 in some of the illustrations I've seen as a person 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:30.680 sleeps um bringing nightmares to them. But your narration as 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:36.399 it relates to this figure was um just really I 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.320 mean it was kind of um, I don't know, I 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:41.239 I it really did bring me to tears because your 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:43.720 narration is about the story of your birth and the 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.159 story of you waiting for your mother as a child 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.080 to land every time she flew. So could you tell 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:52.919 us about that story and how um, how this this 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:59.560 the gaboos um lore resonates with it. Um. Yeah, So 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.399 I called boost was one of the figures that I 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:05.479 had come across with within my research and always kind 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.080 of like Helbert somewhere in my head to kind of 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.720 come back to. And actually she's the last figure from 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:17.640 this series that I worked on. Um So, as you mentioned, 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.119 car boost is known as a gen that brings um 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:25.880 nightmare but also specifically sleep proalysis to human body. Um so. 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:28.880 We also said in far seats also known as back deck, 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:30.879 which is kind of like known as this thing that 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:32.880 kind of you know, sits on your chest and one 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.000 that you move um and so you know, I kind 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.880 of started doing a lot of research first, like within 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.719 also like the scientific aspect of it, like what happens 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.520 when you experienced sleep paralysis. I don't know if you've 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.679 ever experienced that. Have you ever experienced sleep paralysis? I 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.920 have not, but my husband has, and he has described 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:54.399 it um as a gin to me, that's what he 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:59.080 believes it was. It's yeah, it's a very I've experienced 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:03.080 it um three times in my life, and I think 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.199 like most of those three times I was really like 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:08.879 stressed for like different reasons. And they say kind of 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.399 like from the scientific aspect of its stress also like 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:15.600 has you know, very kind of direct relationship to how 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.840 you experience this and why you experience it? But that 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:21.600 the gin experience that your your husband is talking about 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:26.280 is actually also very present in a way that that 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:31.040 that you experienced the paralysis when you're sleeping. My first 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.560 time that I had experienced it, I I literally saw 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:38.560 someone opening the window, but I saw myself seeing them. 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.760 So that's another thing that happens again within what happens 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:45.880 in your brain if you study it within scientific research, 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:50.560 is that you you become an image and then you 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.720 will be standing outside of that image then watching yourself. 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:57.359 And I experienced it completely like that, and that's really 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.800 scary because you see yourself not being able to move 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:05.040 while you're awake. Um So, anyway, I've been always like 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.399 fascinated by that because I also had like this personal 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:10.000 experience and I asked people sometimes you know about like 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:12.760 have your experiences, What was your experience with sleep parallels 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:16.720 if you did? Um So thinking about that and thinking 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:19.960 about kind of like basically trauma, right, A lot of 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.200 papers written on SAP parallelsis, as I said, is connected 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:25.919 to stress and trauma. And so I was like thinking 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:28.080 about trauma and I was like doing like a lot 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:33.520 of research in this um recent scientific also like research 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:38.000 that is this idea of intergenerational trauma, which is that 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:44.280 UM trauma stays in your DNA basically UM, and it 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:48.199 can be passed on within generations. Some people also call 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:52.760 it like blood memory, you know, so like the experience 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:56.040 of enslaved people, let's say, to experience of war, to 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:59.960 like other experiences that has been experienced too, again differ 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:03.840 different generations. It can be passed on that even if 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.320 you don't experience it yourself as a new generation, it's 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.520 still kind of stays within your DNA and your blood memory. 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:14.000 So I was fascinated by those this this These are 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:18.280 again like newer research UM and scientific studies, and I 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:22.360 wanted to somehow connect this relationship between trauma into generational 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:27.399 trauma too. Also my ideas of you know, when we 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:31.199 experienced into inter general trauma, like as a as a 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:34.400 person you know who is like now, like thirty five, 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:37.280 I think about birthing a lot, and I think about 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:40.520 children a lot, but also not wanting to have my 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:44.240 own my own child UM. And so I connect to 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:47.359 the story to like four generations of women, so my grandmother, 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:51.320 my mother, and myself and and imagined monsters like gen 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:55.320 like daughter UM. And then we all in different parts 0:21:55.359 --> 0:22:01.320 of this VR film, we tell different stories about motherhood 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.560 and war and different different trauma and different encounter with 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:08.520 gin So and all of this happens in a in 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:11.600 a bath house. As I said at the beginning of 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:16.800 this conversation, UM, my grandmother always talked about bath houses 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:20.359 and also public bath houses at a time were really 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:23.960 important social spaces for women and intimacy between ways that 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:26.760 women would go and spend hours, you know, at a 0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:29.720 at a bath house to bath, but also to hang 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:34.680 out and sing and gossip. Um. So this space of 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:37.640 intimacy was something I wanted to bring together, this four 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:42.000 generation of women for us to talk about different relationship 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:46.160 we had we've had with um trauma and then war 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:48.320 being a big part of me growing up in Iran. 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:51.919 And like this diary that I my mom gave me 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.280 when I was around sixteen or seventeen that she wrote 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:59.119 during um Irani Rock War when she was pregnant with 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:03.200 my sister Um and somewhere in it she talks about 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:07.160 how she feels guilty for giving birth to my sister 0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:09.280 and she doesn't know if it's a right decision and 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:13.280 if it's a cruel decision. UM. And so that always 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:15.280 stayed with me, you know, as a teenager. It always 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:18.919 stayed with me because I would also kind of um 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:21.520 as my my, my, my parents are like this is 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:24.360 um and saying that how could your generation give birth 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:28.120 to this many kids? Because the eight years of War 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:32.679 had actually the highest rate of birth um and you know, 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:37.480 again like connecting that to my own um experience stuff 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:42.320 thinking about motherhood, but like rethinking motherhood and thinking about 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:47.240 birthing as something that could be you know, birth justice 0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:49.800 is a specific word that I use in that narrative 0:23:50.600 --> 0:23:53.280 which you talk about that which is not just I 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:56.120 mean the definition of birth justice is having the choice 0:23:56.800 --> 0:24:01.159 um of you know, as as a woman having a 0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:07.280 choice of when with who and um let's see when 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:10.679 with who? And I'll say that again in a second. 0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:12.480 But I'm trying to what is it like who? You know, 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:16.520 let's see, I believe you said where. I guess it 0:24:16.640 --> 0:24:18.720 is where. Yeah, that makes sense, okay, so let me 0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:23.760 let me say that again. UM. So this I came 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:28.000 across this you know, kind of very specific definition of 0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:31.840