1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and 3 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,639 Speaker 1: welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin. 4 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: The interviews in these episodes, you'll hear me talk to 5 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences, 6 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: are drawn through the stories of Gin and draw lessons 7 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, 8 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss 9 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: how and why this series came about in a very 10 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy. 11 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: I am very excited to introduce my guest for you 12 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: this week and artists like no other that you have 13 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: ever known. Marchan Alari is an artist, activist, writer, and educator. 14 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: She was born and raised in Iran and moved to 15 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: the US in two thousand and seven, and her work 16 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: deals with the political and social and cultural contradictions that 17 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: we face every single day. She's an acclaimed artist, the 18 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: recipient of the Joan Mitchell Foundation Painters and Sculptors Grant, 19 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: the Sun Dance Institute, New Frontier International Fellowship, and Leading 20 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: Global Thinkers of two thousand and sixteen award by Foreign 21 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: Policy Magazine. Her work has been part of numerous exhibitions, festivals, 22 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: and workshops around the world, including the Whitney Museum of 23 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 1: American Art, Pompadou Center, Museum of Contemporary Art in Montreal, 24 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: the Tape Museum, the Queen's Museum, Powerhouse Museum, the Dallas 25 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: Museum of Art, and so many more. Now, I came 26 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: across Machine when I was researching female jams, and I 27 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: came across her incredible project called she Who Sees the Unknown. 28 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: And in this project more Sheen uses three D scanning, modeling, 29 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 1: and printing to recreate monstrous female and queer figures from 30 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: Middle Eastern origins. Believe me, this is a conversation you 31 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: don't want to miss. Thank you so much for joining us, 32 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: um Moha Shane. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. 33 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 1: I have been fascinated with your work ever since I 34 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: discovered it earlier this year. Hi, thanks so much for 35 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: having me Rabbia, It's it's an honor. So um you 36 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: know I as you know you know. This UH Conversation 37 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: series is a companion to the ongoing series which will 38 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: which will have air by the time this this air 39 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: is UM called the Hidden Gin Podcast, and I drew 40 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: on a lot of different sources, and one of those 41 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: sources actually was the exhibit that I've found, and that's 42 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 1: how I discovered you called She who Sees the Unknown. 43 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: But before we get into that, I want to talk 44 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: a little bit about you say on your website, UM 45 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: about this exhibit that the Iranian traditions jin are fearsome 46 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: and honored, and that your upbringing in Iran was full 47 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: of ancient mythical narratives involving supernatural beings, and your bedtime 48 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: stories told to you by your grandmother often included gin. 49 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: So I wanted to ask you if you can tell 50 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: it a little bit about your upbringing, about your background 51 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: in Iran, and about the gin lore that you grew 52 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: up with. Yes, um So, I started to kind of 53 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 1: become interested in general since like three and a half 54 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: years ago, uh in these figures of monstrous female slash 55 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: genderless career figures in mythical stories UH that would origin 56 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: in West Asia or basically Middle Eastern UM ancient stories 57 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: and UM to kind of um give you a little 58 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: bit of I guess more summary of also like my 59 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: practice in relationship to that I. You know, I also 60 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: have been very interested in this relationship between technology and 61 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: history in that sense. So when I was doing this research, UM, 62 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: I was going through a lot of resources and books 63 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: and and material UM that would you know include this 64 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: this also like figure of of Gin within Islamic tradition studies. 65 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: And so that's when I when I became interested in 66 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: researching more um into the figure of the Gin. And 67 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, it's a figure that I grew up 68 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: with in Iran. Whenever there were stories that kind of 69 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: were ghosts, these ghostly stories, et cetera, it would always 70 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: involve the figure of the Gin. And so a lot 71 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: of people who might have grown up in different countries 72 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: Islamic countries or Realistan countries probably also identify with this 73 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: that Jen is a figure that we grow up within 74 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: a lot of our our stories and time stories UM. 75 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: And at the same time that it's very feared as 76 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: a figu you're um, it's also very respected. So people 77 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: take certain kind of UM caution or like certain kind 78 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: of UH care in terms of the way they they 79 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: deal with the digen and the way that you shouldn't 80 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: interrupt certain spaces or you kind of can use different 81 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: methods as a way to not not be possessed by 82 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: by the gin. So, yeah, I'm gonna go on, please. 83 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: So for me, the figure of the Gin had this 84 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: personal relationship that I had with it, but at the 85 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: same time coming I was also like coming to it 86 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: from more of like a feminist perspective and feminism studies. 87 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: And that's something that I guess I can talk more 88 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: about later. Yeah, So, so I want to talk a 89 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: little bit about what your perspective on these stories were 90 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: as you grow up and maybe how that's changed, um 91 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: with adulthood. I also, you know, I grew up steep 92 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: kind of in this this this culture. Although my family 93 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: nobody totally told stories much, but you know, a couple 94 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: of Muslim kids get together and that's that was the 95 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: topic conversation often late at nights. Um, So, when when 96 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: you were being taught or told these stories where they 97 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: kind of like lessons that were being told to you, 98 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: or they told you to entertain or to maybe warn 99 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: you from certain behaviors, or was it taught to you 100 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: as something like this is real, Like you gotta take 101 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: this seriously. Um. I think it's a combination of a 102 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: couple of those things. You said, so most of it 103 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: as I as I. As you also mentioned, it was 104 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: told by my grandmother who lived with us, and you know, 105 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: I had a very close relationship too. And one of 106 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: the most vivid memories I have is um in a 107 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: in a summer and evening um almost like night, when 108 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: the stars were out, and it was me and two 109 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: of my my cousins who we all lived in the 110 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: same apartment building, and my grandmother was telling us about 111 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: her encounter with a gen um at a public bath 112 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: where she grew up, which is a village in Kurdistan 113 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: and west of Iran, and she was telling us, you 114 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: know how it was very common for women who would 115 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: go to these public bath houses to encounter gen And 116 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: one of the things that is also known or like 117 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: talked about about the gen is that they really like 118 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: spaces that are dark and humid. So basically, you know, 119 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: a place like a bath house is like a perfect 120 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: place for them to come and visit. So for me, 121 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: it was kind of like as a child, it was 122 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: a mixture of believing it and doubting it, like did 123 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: she really see it? Was it something else she saw that, 124 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: like she thought it's a gen um, But again like 125 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: because those stories get like repeated so much within different 126 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: people's experiences of encountering gen um. It's kind of like 127 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: becomes almost like an oral narrative of you know, a 128 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: relationship with this supernatural creature that is there and then 129 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: certain people encountered in certain or don't. And if you're 130 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: scared of it, then, as I mentioned earlier, you can 131 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: take certain actions um to to avoid it. Were you 132 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: ever aware and I wasn't aware until adulthood, and I did, 133 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: you know, my research kind of more deeply into into 134 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: this whole subject um that ginn or gendered um and 135 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: that there is a body of you know, folklore around 136 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: female gin in particular, or at least um people encounter 137 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: them as female gin. Was that something you were aware 138 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: of growing up or is that something you also learned 139 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: as you started doing your research into this project. Absolutely not. 140 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: My image of the gin as as this creature was 141 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: always male. And again this goes back to one of 142 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: the reasons I became really curious and also interested in 143 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 1: this this project that I worked on for for almost 144 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: four years. She was sees the unknown um which I 145 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: wanted to kind of find these female or almost genderless 146 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: uh stories and figures of of the Gin and also 147 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: like monstrous figures because UM also growing up in Iran 148 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: with a lot of mythical and you know, ancient stories 149 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: that are part of um our daily life but also 150 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: our you know school and like literature and education. Incredible 151 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: incredible stories. Yeah, and they're all always very you know, 152 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: all these figures are male. So I was wondering, like, 153 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: where are the female figures are mohere are the figures 154 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: that are perhaps like more and more queer, more like 155 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: a non binary in terms of like you know, gender 156 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: as like these things that you know in English were 157 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: like very specific about he and she, but in in 158 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: far Sea, actually there's no he or she for third person, right, 159 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: So I kind of like wanted to find also that 160 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: ambiguity within these these texts and material. And yeah, that's 161 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:55,839 Speaker 1: that's how I came across so many female or generalist 162 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 1: figures of of Gin that were illustrated in different books 163 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: and and resources and material that I had no idea about. 164 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: Can you tell us UM a little bit about the 165 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: the exhibit again, its titled She who Sees the Unknown? 166 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: About the kind of um like the medium that you 167 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: used for this exhibit, I mean it's and I wish 168 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: I could. I don't know where is it this being 169 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: displayed right now, by the way, So it's more of 170 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: like a project. I mean, it has been exhibited in 171 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: so many different places, but when you go up to 172 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: my website she posives you on that time. It's a 173 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: research based project that has many different components and elements, 174 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 1: from performance to these three D printed sculptures that I 175 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: recreate from illustrations I find in older material, books, etcetera. Um, 176 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: to these new texts and narratives that I write about 177 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: each of these figures that I choose to work with. 178 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: And then there's an archive aspect of it, and also 179 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: like a reading room that I have been also working 180 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: on as part of the project. So um yeah, the 181 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 1: project itself again has many many different components um. And 182 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: then the exhibition in time i've shown it, it has, 183 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: you know, taken many many different forms. But within the 184 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: research I've done, I've come across many many texts and 185 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: material and an illustrations, but I've chosen to focus on 186 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: five specific figures, which are Huma, who is a gin 187 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: who brings fever to human body. Yeah, Judge jug who 188 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: are these figures that are kind of like monsters gen 189 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: like that are spoken in the Qoran that represent chaos. 190 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: The Laughing Snake, which is uh known as you know, 191 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: a very like powerful kind of hybrid animal human female 192 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: human combination that is known as you know, this figure 193 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: that is very um strong and is going through all 194 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: these like towns and cities and killing people and eating 195 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: all the animals, and no one can win a war 196 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: with her until um someone comes and say the only 197 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: way to kill her is to hold a mirror in 198 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: front of her, and when she sees her reflection, she 199 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: starts laughing, and she laughs for days and nights until 200 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: she dies from the laughter um. And then Caboos, which 201 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: is a gen that is known as a gen that 202 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: brings nightmare and si proalysis to human body. Um, and 203 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: then I shap and Disha. She's actually originally a Moroccan 204 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: gen um that is known to possess men, creating a 205 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: crack on their body. And the only way to not 206 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: go insane when you're possessed by her is to participate 207 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: with her and listen to her. So I use all 208 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: these you know, really beautiful complex stories, and then I 209 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: write new stories about them, and I turned them around. 210 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: I kind of connect different aspects of you know that 211 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: their their their power UM into different uh contemporary issues 212 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: and topics and also kind of these like futuristic alternative 213 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: reimagination of it's possible and the world. You've coined this 214 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: term refiguring, which I read about and you said refiguring 215 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: is about activation and preservation. Can you talk a little 216 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: bit about refiguring and UM when you when you think 217 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: about refiguring, when you go about it is the content 218 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: because I know, I mean a lot of your work 219 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: is UM. It has a social political UM aspect to it. UM. 220 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 1: I know in this exhibit where to talk about specifically 221 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: have some I mean, you just turned the story of 222 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: yah Juj Madjuj on its head for me, UM, but 223 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 1: you know a lot of it visibly like um colonization 224 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: and imperialism. But also are you also doing refiguring within 225 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,599 Speaker 1: kind of your own cultural context? UM? Yeah, I mean absolutely. 226 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: I think the most important aspect of that is the 227 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: refiguration of UM. This this this figure of the female 228 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: monstrous female figure which is known usually as like negative 229 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 1: or or mean, which is kind of like you can 230 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: compare it to you know, the figure of the witch 231 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 1: um in in like Western literature and like kind of 232 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: like cultural productions which has been turned around through like 233 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: different feminist movements as something that instead of like being 234 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: considered you know, like this like figure off an old 235 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: ugly woman, uh, into you know, like a kind of 236 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: witchcraft movement, which is like empower empowerment for like women 237 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: to turn around that figure. So that's something I'm doing 238 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: within the cultural context of these um stories and also 239 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: the figures themselves, which is too you know, especially like 240 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I can give you like an example with 241 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: let's say, the laughing snake, which I am kind of 242 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: turning around this idea that her her death because of 243 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: her laughter is considered a weakness, um, and I'm saying 244 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: that actually that position that she's taking is a position 245 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: of um, you know, empowerment, because she's taking away her 246 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: reflection from the mirror that is held by these men, 247 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: as you see in this like old illustrations in two 248 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: different resources. Um. And kind of then I used that 249 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: to tell a more contemporary story of growing up in 250 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: Iran and dealing with sexual harassment and you know, like 251 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: trying to figure out my body as a woman and 252 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: thinking about sexual desire and so kind of again trying 253 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: to like to find ownership of my body as a woman. 254 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,239 Speaker 1: But also it's it's an experience that is very collective 255 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: in terms of like all when growing upment in in 256 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: Iran can can connect to these stories and these experiences 257 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: within spirit harassment, but also in a wider again um 258 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: connection to it. It's it's something that all women can 259 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: connect to and with in in different levels. So you 260 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: interpret the laughter, which actually when I first heard about 261 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: the story, I also kind of did as something that 262 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: was empowering. Yes, absolutely, because because you know, the way 263 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: it's I feel like sometimes it's told is more of 264 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: you know, she laughs and then she dies and that's 265 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: the end and they find a way to kill her. 266 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: But then again for me, she makes the decision had 267 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: laughter as a respond to what they're doing is like, um, 268 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, very conscious decision of how to respond to 269 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: to that reflection that that she's witnessing being held by 270 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: these men. Um. Yeah. So and I and again like 271 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: this idea of refiguration or turning around power structures is 272 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: something that I became really interested in within this project 273 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: and how I can't do that through specifically also storytelling 274 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: and a narrative. UM that has political cultural components to it. Um, 275 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: I want to talk about boots, I thought, and I've 276 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time on your website. I've watched 277 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: pretty which all the videos on there, and so the 278 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: boos are and they're also called al jathoom and they 279 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: are known to be kind of a race of gin, 280 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: kind of a category of gin that bring different um 281 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: sicknesses and trauma and nightmares. And the depiction is can 282 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: be quite frightening. Um, this gin is it looks like 283 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: there kind of this hovering above a human being in 284 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: in some of the illustrations I've seen as a person 285 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: sleeps um bringing nightmares to them. But your narration as 286 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: it relates to this figure was um just really I 287 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: mean it was kind of um, I don't know, I 288 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,239 Speaker 1: I it really did bring me to tears because your 289 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: narration is about the story of your birth and the 290 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: story of you waiting for your mother as a child 291 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: to land every time she flew. So could you tell 292 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: us about that story and how um, how this this 293 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: the gaboos um lore resonates with it. Um. Yeah, So 294 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: I called boost was one of the figures that I 295 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,479 Speaker 1: had come across with within my research and always kind 296 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: of like Helbert somewhere in my head to kind of 297 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: come back to. And actually she's the last figure from 298 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: this series that I worked on. Um So, as you mentioned, 299 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: car boost is known as a gen that brings um 300 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: nightmare but also specifically sleep proalysis to human body. Um so. 301 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 1: We also said in far seats also known as back deck, 302 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: which is kind of like known as this thing that 303 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 1: kind of you know, sits on your chest and one 304 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: that you move um and so you know, I kind 305 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: of started doing a lot of research first, like within 306 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 1: also like the scientific aspect of it, like what happens 307 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: when you experienced sleep paralysis. I don't know if you've 308 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: ever experienced that. Have you ever experienced sleep paralysis? I 309 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: have not, but my husband has, and he has described 310 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: it um as a gin to me, that's what he 311 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: believes it was. It's yeah, it's a very I've experienced 312 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: it um three times in my life, and I think 313 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 1: like most of those three times I was really like 314 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: stressed for like different reasons. And they say kind of 315 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: like from the scientific aspect of its stress also like 316 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: has you know, very kind of direct relationship to how 317 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: you experience this and why you experience it? But that 318 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: the gin experience that your your husband is talking about 319 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: is actually also very present in a way that that 320 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: that you experienced the paralysis when you're sleeping. My first 321 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: time that I had experienced it, I I literally saw 322 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: someone opening the window, but I saw myself seeing them. 323 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: So that's another thing that happens again within what happens 324 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: in your brain if you study it within scientific research, 325 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: is that you you become an image and then you 326 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: will be standing outside of that image then watching yourself. 327 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: And I experienced it completely like that, and that's really 328 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: scary because you see yourself not being able to move 329 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: while you're awake. Um So, anyway, I've been always like 330 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: fascinated by that because I also had like this personal 331 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: experience and I asked people sometimes you know about like 332 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: have your experiences, What was your experience with sleep parallels 333 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: if you did? Um So thinking about that and thinking 334 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: about kind of like basically trauma, right, A lot of 335 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: papers written on SAP parallelsis, as I said, is connected 336 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: to stress and trauma. And so I was like thinking 337 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: about trauma and I was like doing like a lot 338 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: of research in this um recent scientific also like research 339 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: that is this idea of intergenerational trauma, which is that 340 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: UM trauma stays in your DNA basically UM, and it 341 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 1: can be passed on within generations. Some people also call 342 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: it like blood memory, you know, so like the experience 343 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: of enslaved people, let's say, to experience of war, to 344 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: like other experiences that has been experienced too, again differ 345 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: different generations. It can be passed on that even if 346 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: you don't experience it yourself as a new generation, it's 347 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: still kind of stays within your DNA and your blood memory. 348 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: So I was fascinated by those this this These are 349 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: again like newer research UM and scientific studies, and I 350 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 1: wanted to somehow connect this relationship between trauma into generational 351 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: trauma too. Also my ideas of you know, when we 352 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 1: experienced into inter general trauma, like as a as a 353 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 1: person you know who is like now, like thirty five, 354 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: I think about birthing a lot, and I think about 355 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: children a lot, but also not wanting to have my 356 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: own my own child UM. And so I connect to 357 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: the story to like four generations of women, so my grandmother, 358 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: my mother, and myself and and imagined monsters like gen 359 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: like daughter UM. And then we all in different parts 360 00:21:55,359 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: of this VR film, we tell different stories about motherhood 361 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: and war and different different trauma and different encounter with 362 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: gin So and all of this happens in a in 363 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: a bath house. As I said at the beginning of 364 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: this conversation, UM, my grandmother always talked about bath houses 365 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: and also public bath houses at a time were really 366 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: important social spaces for women and intimacy between ways that 367 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: women would go and spend hours, you know, at a 368 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: at a bath house to bath, but also to hang 369 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: out and sing and gossip. Um. So this space of 370 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: intimacy was something I wanted to bring together, this four 371 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: generation of women for us to talk about different relationship 372 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: we had we've had with um trauma and then war 373 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: being a big part of me growing up in Iran. 374 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: And like this diary that I my mom gave me 375 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: when I was around sixteen or seventeen that she wrote 376 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: during um Irani Rock War when she was pregnant with 377 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: my sister Um and somewhere in it she talks about 378 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: how she feels guilty for giving birth to my sister 379 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: and she doesn't know if it's a right decision and 380 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: if it's a cruel decision. UM. And so that always 381 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: stayed with me, you know, as a teenager. It always 382 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: stayed with me because I would also kind of um 383 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: as my my, my, my parents are like this is 384 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: um and saying that how could your generation give birth 385 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 1: to this many kids? Because the eight years of War 386 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 1: had actually the highest rate of birth um and you know, 387 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: again like connecting that to my own um experience stuff 388 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: thinking about motherhood, but like rethinking motherhood and thinking about 389 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: birthing as something that could be you know, birth justice 390 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: is a specific word that I use in that narrative 391 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: which you talk about that which is not just I 392 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: mean the definition of birth justice is having the choice 393 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: um of you know, as as a woman having a 394 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: choice of when with who and um let's see when 395 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: with who? And I'll say that again in a second. 396 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: But I'm trying to what is it like who? You know, 397 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: let's see, I believe you said where. I guess it 398 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: is where. Yeah, that makes sense, okay, so let me 399 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: let me say that again. UM. So this I came 400 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: across this you know, kind of very specific definition of 401 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: birth justice, which is that as a woman having the 402 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: option to choose when with home and where to give birth? Um. 403 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: And I added to that, what to give birth to 404 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: UM you know, as my own kind of imagined way 405 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: of thinking about how to break through this intergenerational trauma cycle, 406 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: right um and kind of like the only way in it, 407 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: I say, the only way to to to to break 408 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: through this cycle is to reimagine the possibilities of what 409 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: we give birth to UM. And in this you know, 410 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: fictional story that I'm kind of building within the VR film, 411 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: I'm ear thing kind of like a monstrous gen mix 412 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 1: of like you know, a child UM that is human 413 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: and non human at a time, but kind of again, uh, 414 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: within thinking about monstrosity as something that can be a 415 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 1: position of empowerment, like embracing that that that monstrosity or 416 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: the figure of the gin um this this child is 417 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: able to see the future for us and help us 418 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: to build an alternative kind of kind of future, you know. UM. 419 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: So it's again sits between like a real and real 420 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: fictional and nonfictional more like documentary style UM film. But 421 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: for me um as as you as you also like 422 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, it's kind of like finding these stories and 423 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: then connecting them to something that is very personal and 424 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: also at the same time UM you know again can 425 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: be expanded to other other people's experiences. Well, that film 426 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: and um that particular exactly. I think it was jarring 427 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: to me in many ways. Also um hearing the voice 428 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: that the childlike monster voice. Uh. You know, there's a 429 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: real frightening aspect of course. I mean, like you know, 430 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: Gin are supposed to be frightening. They inspire fear in us. Um, 431 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: but I I feel like you're using that fear in 432 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: a very different way. UM. Can you talk a little 433 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: bit about what you think whether there's instrumental whether you 434 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: you are instrumentalizing the fear uh in a specific way 435 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: to to mean something else that not necessarily like the 436 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: fear means that these monstrous beings um are evil necessary 437 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: because there's a strong connection between Gin evil, especially the 438 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: Gin that we are told if the Gin encounter human beings, um, 439 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: the lores and those are definitely evil Gin. Yes, Um, yes, 440 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: So I mean that's a really great question because the 441 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: way that I have tried to try to build this 442 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: project and kind of build build and refigure these these 443 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: stories and figures is to find perhaps like a balance 444 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: between um, this this hybrid aspect of what Jin are. 445 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: So they're both feared uh and honored, right, so they can. 446 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: They can. They can be your friend and at the 447 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: same time your enemy. Um, you can. You can befriend 448 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: them and use their power. Like that's what they're known as. 449 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: Right If if you know how to like befriend the 450 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: gin and use their power, you can use that power 451 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: to possess other other beings are like make some something 452 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: happen within the world, right, Um. But also you can 453 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: be possessed by them. So there's always this sort of 454 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: gray area with the figure of the Gin um and 455 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 1: even in the Koran when they're talked about. You know, 456 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: we have the figure of the angel that obeys and 457 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: then the double that disobeys and um. Like humans, Gin 458 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: have the will to obey or disobey um and that's 459 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: something that made them, made made working with the figure 460 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: of the Gin really interesting from my research and and 461 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 1: and this body of work. UM. So yeah, I try 462 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: to kind of build a space where they're feared, but 463 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: at the same time we're in we want to know them, 464 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: we want to get to know that, we want to 465 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: enter their world and within the as I mentioned earlier, 466 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: the kind of the feminist movements and the feminism refiguration 467 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: of them. UM. I try to like use use their 468 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: figures UM as a way to again like find a 469 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: space for the empowerment of women and not non binary 470 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: people UM, et cetera. So it's it's really a mix 471 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: of these worlds that I tried to bring together UM 472 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: and also channel this power of after gin um for 473 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: our empowerment. We'll be right back after the short break. 474 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,959 Speaker 1: One of the questions that I pose in there's one 475 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: specific episode that focuses on the female gin and one 476 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: of the one of those gin that's heavily focused on 477 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: a check and who was really rich? I mean, there's 478 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: so much tradition around that figure UM and but not 479 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: the other ones that you actually have included your exhibit. 480 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: But the question one of the questions I posed as 481 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: you know, as I was reading these stories, I wondered, 482 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: you know, I can see it playing both ways with 483 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: these stories UM, which in large part of these in 484 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: South Asian culture, you do not we don't. We don't 485 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: have access to stories of female gen anymore. These don't 486 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: exist anymore. I've never heard them anymore unless they are 487 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: like an unnamed which type of figure right UM or 488 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: something that's not as UM I guess, not not as 489 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: powerful as a second or a little bit or other 490 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: kinds of female figures. But I've always wondered, um, we're 491 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: were the were the perceptions around female gin? Do you 492 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: think a reflection of how society viewed viewed women? You don't. 493 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: We we have this. I mean, it's not uncommon to 494 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: hear in in a lot of Muslim cultures that, oh, yeah, 495 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: women are bent a little crooked, like the rib of 496 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: Adam because they come from the rib of atoms. So 497 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: there's something a little nefarious about women. Or I wondered, 498 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: are these stories of gin who, these female gin who 499 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: have so much power and can inspire so much fear? 500 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: Are these actually projections of the women at the time 501 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: themselves saying this is what we are capable of, and 502 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: you should hold a little fear and love and respect 503 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: all the same time. Yeah, I'd like to, you know, 504 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: I like to think that's why a big part of 505 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: it the the one that you just mentioned. But also 506 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it's a combination of two pretty much, 507 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: you know, within looking at a lot of these stories 508 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: and kind of like also again, like one thing I've 509 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: I've been doing and researching is um also apparel Um 510 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: World of Um Western like figures or methodologies and how 511 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: they've been used within different like feminist movements, right, like 512 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: as I mentioned that the figure of the witch or 513 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: um the you know, we have the figure of the zombies, 514 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: which can be male or female, but definitely I think 515 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: um something that I have been fascinated by is um 516 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: that kind of patriarchal you know, heaviness of like how 517 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: how these figures are like not just that women are 518 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: like you know from as you say, there's like that 519 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: that's saying that women actually within some Islamic cultures and 520 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: thinking that are like even a considered half of men 521 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: right there, that incomplete and actually, to be fair, look, 522 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: it's not just mean the all the Abrahamic I mean 523 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: you know original sin, right, I mean like Christianity and Judaism. 524 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: It's exists, I was even not Abrahamic cultures, but certainly 525 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: absolutely exactly Like so that's my my research within like 526 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: other cultures and studies shows exactly what you're saying. That 527 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: like that that like patriarchal kind of like perspective towards 528 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: like women, their madness, they're like hysteria. Right, There's a 529 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: long history of hysteria and patriarchy within like women having 530 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,479 Speaker 1: this hysteria or madness for different reasons. When you're like, 531 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: there's a whole Wikipedia of asia and hysteria. Well, America 532 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: still thinks that a woman is not emotionally stable enough 533 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: to become presidents. So yeah, and we have that within 534 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: you know, any iron for example, you can be a 535 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: judge as a woman because you are too emotional to 536 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: be able to like judge with with logic basically. So yeah, 537 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: So I want to tell I have to say this. 538 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: You know, I am I'm always uh and you know, 539 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: I'm an observant Muslim um, and but I have had 540 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: to rediscover my faith um in the last fifteen twenty 541 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: years because I realized that the gatekeepers who were teaching 542 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: us things have a very specific perspective, have a you know, 543 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: it's just the male perspective, as a very patriarchal, misogynistic perspective, 544 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: and so retelling the stories in a way that actually 545 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: makes sense to the I would say the spirit of 546 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: what I believe is a lot of faith is about 547 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: has really opened up a lot of doors for me. 548 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: But this retelling of yeah Jewish magut, I cannot tell you. 549 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: I can't stop thinking about this and I'm going to 550 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: talk about this with every other person I meet, um, 551 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: but for our listeners, just uh, you might you might 552 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: not be familiar with your judge, but you might be 553 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: familiar with Gog and Magogue, which is found in the 554 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: Biblical telling and the Talmudic telling. To telling and Gog 555 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: and Magogue are a race of beings that, it is said, 556 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: at least um I guess to be more specifically in 557 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: the Islamic tradition, that they are basically hidden behind a wall. 558 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: They have they they cause chaos. They are these beings 559 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: that if they're unleashed into the world they'll destroy it. 560 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: So for centuries and millennia they have been buried behind 561 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: this wall. Every single day they chip away at this wall, 562 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: and at the end of the day they give up 563 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: and say, well, we can't, we just can't get through. 564 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,919 Speaker 1: But everythingle The next day they start over again, and 565 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: the as the story goes towards the end of time, um, 566 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: towards the day of judgment, at one point they're going 567 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: to breach the wall and completely be unleashed on this world. 568 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: But oh my gosh, you have to tell me how 569 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: you imagine the story in your own words. Absolutely, yeah, 570 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: so I came actually across UM this story sometime after 571 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: UH the Muslim band or travel band have happened in 572 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: the US, and I'm my stuff was also affected by it. 573 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: At a time, UM, I had left the US for 574 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 1: UM a week of exhibitions and conference that I was 575 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: part of in Berlin, in Germany, and then the band happened. 576 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: And at a time I had UM an Iranian passport 577 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: and a green card, and if some of you might remember, 578 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: at the beginning a green card holders were also like 579 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: included UH with the with the band and from if 580 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: you were from these six band countries. UM. So I 581 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: it was like such a strange, complicated moment where I 582 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,240 Speaker 1: just didn't know if I could come back to the US, 583 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: and you know I have. I have lived here for 584 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: like now around eleven twelve years, and so that was 585 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: like a really intense moment of realizing everything I've built 586 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: here could just go go to zero. But obviously I 587 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: was privileged enough to have the green card and be 588 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 1: able to come back. While this story up to today, 589 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: four years later, almost UH is very relevant to the 590 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: lives of many people who are trying to come to 591 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: this country for for different reasons, as immigrants, refugees, etcetera. Um, 592 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: And so I came across the story of yahujuj Um 593 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: and you know this, this image of the wall was 594 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: something that was just stuck in my head because it 595 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: talks about the wall as something that they get these 596 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 1: figure zolor Aarin. In some texts they say it's Um 597 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: Alexander the Great Um to build this wall. Um and 598 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: these the people of the city asked for this wall 599 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: to be built to keep yah jud majus out because 600 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: they present chaos, as you also mentioned, Um. And so 601 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: reading I started to do a lot of research around it, 602 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: like reading different interpretations of this story, not just within 603 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: you know, the Islamic text itself, but but different interpretations 604 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: of Um. Different you know uh I guess um Muslim 605 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,479 Speaker 1: scholars or just just people reading this story and coming 606 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: up with their own interpretation of what this means. And 607 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,479 Speaker 1: one thing that was really fascinating to me is kind 608 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: of these these these different time zones and timelines of 609 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: how yeah judge magic or who yeah judge major had 610 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: been interpreted at as so somewhere like oh they were um, 611 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, Turkish people or Mongolians who who attacked Iran 612 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: somewhere like you know, again saying that they represent Israel. 613 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 1: Um and you know, and again many many other interpretations 614 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 1: of them. But one thing that became very obvious to 615 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,800 Speaker 1: me is how through many many centuries of this story 616 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: being interpreted, it shows that we always have found this 617 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: figure of the other, right or the other as a 618 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: way to make a monster of So what basically someone 619 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: like Trump calls the bad people um and you know, 620 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: the ones that can put America in danger or like 621 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: we don't want to let them come in because of rapists, 622 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: that they're the worst ones, right, absolutely, yeah, So how 623 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: through this monstrosity of these people, right, like making a 624 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: monster of these people? Um, through so many years, including 625 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:19,919 Speaker 1: amoment we're living, these the other have been um justified 626 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: as those we need to keep out, those we need 627 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: to ban, those we need to reject and um. The 628 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 1: Islamic interpretation is that when the age come and break 629 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: through the wall, we're going to You also mentioned experienced 630 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: some kind of ending, and as you know, within Islamic studies, UM, 631 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: that ending is is both dystopian and in some ways utopian, 632 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: because the ending itself is dystopian, but it will it 633 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 1: will result to basically something, um, you know that we 634 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: want that is better, right, So, and and they use 635 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: this very specific term which is the end of time 636 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: that they doesn't say like and they kind of I 637 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: mean I read a lot about that specific frame, which 638 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: is the end of time. And yeah, that was just 639 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: really powerful for me because I was like, what would 640 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 1: the end of this time mean to us right now, 641 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: as you know, as Muslim, as people from you know, 642 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: even if you're not. I mean, it's about nationality at 643 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: this point, right if you're from Ivan, but whatever your 644 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,720 Speaker 1: religion is, and other other countries that are also bound 645 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: as well. Um, So it's like what, you know, what 646 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,959 Speaker 1: what would that end mean? And also for all these 647 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: other people you know, we are now. In the past 648 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: weeks there has been a lot of um conversations and 649 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: kind of protest etcetera, um about you know, um, black 650 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: people and and the struggle of black people in America 651 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,760 Speaker 1: and and the history of slavery, etcetera. So it doesn't 652 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: matter how your other within this context of history, but 653 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: the fact that the otherness it has is almost always 654 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: linked to this monstrosity was something that was you know, 655 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,839 Speaker 1: really fascinating to me. So I turned around again like 656 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 1: that that image and use the power of the chaos, 657 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: the monstrous, the one that is the other um as 658 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: a way to actually break through the wall and then 659 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: wish for some some other, some, some new beginning, another world, 660 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: an alternative reality that we can live in that is 661 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: not whatever it is that we're experiencing. Now, you're telling 662 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: us that the chaos that we fear, or that's feared 663 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: by certain powers, um, we ourselves have internalized fear of 664 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,799 Speaker 1: that chaos. When that chaos itself could bring the end 665 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 1: of a time that's terrible for those of us who 666 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 1: are mothered um and could could usher in, you know, 667 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: whatever comes after the end of this time. UM. And 668 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: it's just such a uh an eye opening. And I'm, 669 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,399 Speaker 1: like I said, I'm still I have to think about 670 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: this for a long time and talk about this for 671 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: a lot of people. But I also thought it was 672 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,240 Speaker 1: really wonderful that you collectively imagine yeah, jujih Ma Juja 673 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: as this female figure um and that and you said 674 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 1: that she felt the burden of her people's exhaustion upon 675 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: her shoulders, the exhaustion of constantly trying to break through 676 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: the wall, um and yet not giving up. Yeah. Absolutely, 677 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: I mean, when I was writing it, it was again 678 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: very personal, but I was like horrified and at the 679 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: same time I knew that I have the privileges that 680 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't have, so kind of like 681 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: thinking about yeah, us thinking about that story as a 682 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 1: story that becomes a poor doll in talking about and 683 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: um representing the pain of all these people who are 684 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: who are who are being other than being banned and 685 00:41:55,200 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: being rejected literally most times for no reason. So um, 686 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: that was something that became yeah, very heartbreaking and at 687 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,840 Speaker 1: the same time painful to think about and write about. 688 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,919 Speaker 1: It just really made me think about who we are, 689 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: what or who we are taught to fear um, and 690 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: to examine that a little more closely, And it really 691 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 1: brought to mind h and how you know, right right 692 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: post um, the post Civil War where there was like 693 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:32,399 Speaker 1: this explosion of UM fear around black men attacking white 694 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,959 Speaker 1: women and um, right like you know, with with birth 695 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: of a national movies, all kinds of media, newspapers, um, 696 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:44,399 Speaker 1: And how we are systematically taught to fear something unquestioning, 697 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,479 Speaker 1: without question And so this you have taught me to 698 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: question maybe what it is that we've been taught to 699 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 1: fear UM. And I think one of the one of 700 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,720 Speaker 1: the things I love about how you framed this entire 701 00:42:55,040 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 1: UM project is that, UM, the female jin not only 702 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 1: has seen the unknown and the known, but she's embraced 703 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: being the other absolutely and and that's that's something that 704 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,440 Speaker 1: I also try to use on my daily life and 705 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:18,319 Speaker 1: my practice of UM not shying away from, you know, 706 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: wanting to constantly justify myself that I'm worthy, I'm good, 707 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: and I you know, because of this reason or that reason, 708 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: I am worthy of either you know, UM living in 709 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,320 Speaker 1: this country or like having access to certain kind of resources, 710 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: et cetera. UM. But kind of again like rather UM 711 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 1: embracing the otherness and using it UM as a way 712 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:48,759 Speaker 1: to to to criticize that that very very thing that 713 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: that has been UM, you know again mothering us. Okay, 714 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna end with one last question for you, UM, 715 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: but before that, I just to say thank you for 716 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 1: this incredibly illuminating conversation for your work. I'm going to 717 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,799 Speaker 1: continue to follow it. I'm so excited to have discovered it. UH, 718 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,239 Speaker 1: And we will point all our listeners and in that 719 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,360 Speaker 1: direction too, so they can continue to follow you. And 720 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,800 Speaker 1: my last question for you is this. Do you believe 721 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:19,800 Speaker 1: you have ever personally had an experience with jin Um? 722 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,360 Speaker 1: I think that the ones however you might think of 723 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 1: jin I mean, it doesn't have to it can be 724 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,799 Speaker 1: whatever you jin is in your imagination, let me clear, right, Yeah, 725 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:29,839 Speaker 1: I mean, so there are two things I can say. 726 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 1: One is that the actual experiences of that I was 727 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 1: telling you of this kind of nightmare sleep paralysis which 728 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 1: you literally feel like there is it's not just like 729 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: a nightmare, that there is another third person with you 730 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,759 Speaker 1: in that space, right, So it's like you and the 731 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: GIN and also something else you know with with the GIN. 732 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: So it's that experience of the sleep paralysis has been 733 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: really intense and has stayed with me always. Um, and 734 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,959 Speaker 1: when since I also start working on this project. You know, again, 735 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: I grew up anyone with a lot of these gen 736 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 1: related stories, etcetera. But um, it was not until when 737 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: I started to do this body of work. She was 738 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 1: just the unknown that I like really had to, you know, 739 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: spend a lot of hours researching. And also that that 740 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:25,399 Speaker 1: caused like very real relationships that I had built with 741 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,680 Speaker 1: each of each of these figures, right, like I can 742 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,080 Speaker 1: I sometimes call them like my children. These like five 743 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: figures that that I you know, mentioned their names earlier 744 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,319 Speaker 1: that I have worked on because to work on each 745 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,799 Speaker 1: of them, I had to spend like hours not just 746 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 1: researching their history and the stories told about them, but 747 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,359 Speaker 1: also like writing about them and really trying to like 748 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: imagine this thing as something that I'm like using its 749 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: power to to to to do something else with. Right, 750 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,360 Speaker 1: and this like really became yeah, like a like a 751 00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,680 Speaker 1: connection that I never thought I would I would find 752 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:06,759 Speaker 1: with something that I'm creating this intensely. Um but um, 753 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,279 Speaker 1: this is this is all like in that sense very 754 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: like new to me. Um. So yeah, I I kind 755 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,799 Speaker 1: of see them not just as you say, like I'm 756 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:21,239 Speaker 1: able to imagine them also in many other forms and 757 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 1: like many many many other ways of their their presence 758 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: within like my personal life as well as what they 759 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 1: can do for the world and with the world. And 760 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 1: kind of last thing I want to mention is that 761 00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,800 Speaker 1: we really need a figure like the gen I I think, 762 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:43,600 Speaker 1: especially within like these kind of um feminist movements and 763 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,480 Speaker 1: thinking about women and uh kind of saying kind of 764 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,640 Speaker 1: trying to like find something away or like different from 765 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:57,200 Speaker 1: the dominant perhaps like Western white feminism movements for me, 766 00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: the image of the gin is something that you know, 767 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 1: I I have found it so powerful because also it's 768 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: something that is for us. But one thing I say 769 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:08,960 Speaker 1: that you know, to build this future for us but 770 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: by us, right um, And that's something that I think 771 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,080 Speaker 1: they can do. And so that means that their their presence. 772 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,280 Speaker 1: When this project is almost done, she will since unknown, 773 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 1: but I think their presence in my in my life 774 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,839 Speaker 1: will um stay in many serious ways because I will 775 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,160 Speaker 1: always think about them again as portals, as channels, as 776 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 1: as as friends and allies and allies that can help 777 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 1: us get through whatever it is that we're trying to 778 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,480 Speaker 1: get through as as we struggle this this fair moment. 779 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for checking out this week's episode and conversation. If 780 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,560 Speaker 1: you want to learn more about more Machine and her work, 781 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,399 Speaker 1: you can find her on Twitter at the handle at 782 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,800 Speaker 1: Mo Machine. It is spelled m o r e h 783 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,279 Speaker 1: A s h i en her website as m O 784 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,160 Speaker 1: r e h s h I n dot com, watching 785 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,960 Speaker 1: dot com. And the exhibit that we talked so extensively 786 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,480 Speaker 1: about is called She Who Sees the Unknown, and you 787 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,120 Speaker 1: can find her the whole website about the entire project 788 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,920 Speaker 1: at She Who sees the Unknown dot com. Absolutely check 789 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,400 Speaker 1: it out. UM, read the reading room, watch the videos. 790 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:25,680 Speaker 1: It's amazing. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much 791 00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:28,560 Speaker 1: as I did. Now there are as many people in 792 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,839 Speaker 1: the world with jin stories as there are gin, so 793 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 1: if you have one you'd like to share, make sure 794 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 1: to email it to me at the Hidden Gin at 795 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,760 Speaker 1: gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H E 796 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: H I D d N d J I n N 797 00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. And until next time, remember we 798 00:48:48,920 --> 00:49:03,480 Speaker 1: are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a production of 799 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,759 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. 800 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,600 Speaker 1: The podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah Chaudry and 801 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:15,000 Speaker 1: produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with executive producers 802 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:19,560 Speaker 1: Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our theme song 803 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,360 Speaker 1: was created by Patrick Quartets. For more podcasts from I 804 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,600 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 805 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.