Speaker 1: Hello, beauties. I'm very excited about today's episode and I
Speaker 1: want to get right into it. Season two is coming
Speaker 1: to a close with next week's episode. I hope you
Speaker 1: all will enjoy these next prolific trans trailblazers that I
Speaker 1: have lined up. Today's conversation is with Dallas Denny, a
Speaker 1: legend in the trans community that many young ones may
Speaker 1: not be aware of. She is the woman who created Aegis,
Speaker 1: Chrysalis magazine and Southern Comfort Conference, to name a few.
Speaker 1: Listen up for some hearts to read kids. Hello listeners,
Speaker 1: and welcome to another episode of Beauty Translated. This week,
Speaker 1: I have another legendary trans elder here with me. She's
Speaker 1: a woman who paved the way and building trans community
Speaker 1: before trans people were visible as they were today, before
Speaker 1: the Internet connected us instantly with our community. Today I'm
Speaker 1: speaking with the prolific columnist, writer, activist, and teacher. Her
Speaker 1: name is Dallas Dinny. Please welcome her. Hi, Dallas Hikram. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we have a legend with us today. I'm I'm thrilled.
Speaker 1: I'm thrilled. Thank you for being in.
Speaker 2: A very small way, maybe.
Speaker 1: In a very big significant way to me.
Speaker 2: I never wanted to be famous. I never wanted to
Speaker 2: be rich, but it is nice to have when people
Speaker 2: know who you are. And so I got what I wanted.
Speaker 1: Dallas, you have a prolific legacy of writing, you know,
Speaker 1: all throughout like the eighties and nineties going into today.
Speaker 1: But I want to make sure that the listeners who
Speaker 1: are not familiar with who you are, are not familiar
Speaker 1: with your work kind of have an idea of who
Speaker 1: you are. So could you starting with kind of maybe
Speaker 1: where you're from and where you're raised, tell the listeners
Speaker 1: kind of a brief introduction of who you are.
Speaker 2: Sure. I was born in Asheville, North Carolina, and lived
Speaker 2: there on and off growing up. My father was in
Speaker 2: the US Army, so we lived a lot of places.
Speaker 2: We lived in Orleans, France for four years, lived in
Speaker 2: Arizona twice, lived in Georgia, and when he would be
Speaker 2: stationed in Korea because it was the media post Korean
Speaker 2: conflict period, we would be in Nashville for a year
Speaker 2: or two. Wow. Yeah, so I bounced all around when
Speaker 2: I was The day I finished the eighth grade, my
Speaker 2: parents picked me up and instead of going home, we
Speaker 2: drove through Atlanta to Murphysboro, just south of Nashville. My
Speaker 2: father had taken a job with the Park Service. So
Speaker 2: from age fourteen until I transitioned at age thirty nine,
Speaker 2: I lived in Tennessee. And when I transitioned, rather than
Speaker 2: do it where I was known, and I moved to
Speaker 2: Atlanta where there was some support, first support I ever found.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm learning a little bit about that. You know,
Speaker 1: nowadays trans people are not as familiar with the concept
Speaker 1: of having to necessarily move away from home in order
Speaker 1: to be accepted you in your transition, because one of
Speaker 1: the benefits of moving away from home is that nobody
Speaker 1: knows who you are. You can kind of start over
Speaker 1: fresh where nobody has to dead name you or misgender
Speaker 1: you or things like that. And you can also, like
Speaker 1: you said, get more access to support, which was here
Speaker 1: in Atlanta. And I lived in Atlanta my entire life.
Speaker 1: I'm going to be thirty this year, and I have
Speaker 1: been researching and reading your writing, and I've been fascinated
Speaker 1: by the amount of history we have trans history we
Speaker 1: have in the city of Atlanta. To me, it seems
Speaker 1: like there was a lot going on in Atlanta at
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 2: There really was.
Speaker 1: So you ended up in Atlanta when you began your transition,
Speaker 1: and that was at the age of thirty nine.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I had been on hormones for ten years. Okay, wow,
Speaker 2: and my name was always Dallas. I didn't have to
Speaker 2: change my name, and I seemed to pass very easily,
Speaker 2: So I had hopes. I didn't want to be unemployed,
Speaker 2: and I worked before. I worked as a psychological examin
Speaker 2: or in Tennessee. But I didn't care. I was ready
Speaker 2: to transition. Was I needed to transition, And I didn't
Speaker 2: know if I'd ever work in a professional capacity again.
Speaker 2: But within two weeks I found a job that I
Speaker 2: worked until I retired with the Stage of Georgia, doing
Speaker 2: essentially the same thing I'd done in Tennessee, which gave
Speaker 2: me a stable base to do activism. I had a
Speaker 2: place to sleep at night, for instance.
Speaker 1: Right, and Atlanta really did become a stable base for
Speaker 1: a lot of the work that you were doing at
Speaker 1: the time. I want to talk more about that, but
Speaker 1: can you before we get into your w work with
Speaker 1: ages and the other several publications that you had, can
Speaker 1: you kind of paint a picture for us of what
Speaker 1: the Atlanta trans community was like at that time.
Speaker 2: Now, all my life, I'd been looking for the community
Speaker 2: and couldn't find it. I went to the Vanderbilt Gender
Speaker 2: Identity program in the late seventies, where they told me
Speaker 2: I was not dysfunctional enough to be transsexual. In other words,
Speaker 2: I had a job, I had to college degrees, so
Speaker 2: they weren't going to help me with transition. And I
Speaker 2: went and read the literature at the adjacent medical library there,
Speaker 2: which suggested they were right, and I realized they wrote
Speaker 2: it so they had this idea that if you weren't
Speaker 2: entirely dysfunctional in the male role or female role vice versa,
Speaker 2: then you weren't really trans And I had questioned myself
Speaker 2: about that, read the literature and decided they were full
Speaker 2: of bull. And I put myself on hormones at age
Speaker 2: twenty nine, so by age thirty nine, I was quite feminized.
Speaker 2: I got rid of my facial hair and moved to Atlanta,
Speaker 2: and having looked for community, the only thing I identified
Speaker 2: was the Society for the Second Self, which was the
Speaker 2: organization founded by Virginia Prince and Carol b Croft for
Speaker 2: heterosexual cross dressers. And I was not welcome as a member.
Speaker 2: And I knew that because they were upfront stating that
Speaker 2: it was, and so the only identified community and people
Speaker 2: even remotely like myself I could find didn't want me.
Speaker 2: But I finally sort of held my breath and joined
Speaker 2: after ten years because my reasoning was they have to
Speaker 2: know people like me. And sure enough, after a few months,
Speaker 2: incomes a woman named Jessica Britton with a copy of
Speaker 2: Transgender Tapestry then it was TVTS Tapestry, and there in
Speaker 2: the back was a listing of support groups. I looked
Speaker 2: through it avidly, and there was a transsexual support group
Speaker 2: in Atlanta called the Montgomery Medical and Psychological Institute, and
Speaker 2: I call him every day for about two months before
Speaker 2: someone picked up the phone. We ranged for an interview.
Speaker 2: I came down and they almost immediately drafted me to
Speaker 2: run their group because both of the founders had health
Speaker 2: issues and they liked my credentials. All I was looking
Speaker 2: for was a little bit of just ability to be myself.
Speaker 2: I wasn't looking to be an activist necessarily, but I
Speaker 2: realized that all my training and all my skills really
Speaker 2: were a good fit. So Jerry Lynn Montgomery wore couple.
Speaker 2: Jerry was he died recently, was a transman. Lynn had
Speaker 2: worked in the gender Identity Clinic, which was co run
Speaker 2: by Emory University and Georgia Mental Health Institute. There was
Speaker 2: a when I got to Atlanta, there was a physical
Speaker 2: building about a half mile from the center of Emory
Speaker 2: and they were still doing gender reassignments there. I don't
Speaker 2: know if they didn't do the surgery because it was
Speaker 2: a big brew haha.
Speaker 1: They still do not in this state. We still do
Speaker 1: not have any gender affirming surgeries. Well, which is crazy.
Speaker 2: Back and must have been the seventies, they the Department
Speaker 2: of Vocational Rehabilitation funded one or two surgeries and it
Speaker 2: just the brown stuff hit the fan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you can see as you want by the way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the ship hit the fan. Everyone was outraged. The
Speaker 2: governor was deluged with letters, but the clinic was still open.
Speaker 2: They were not surgical. I learned there were surgeries done
Speaker 2: because immediately after my genital surgery, I went to Michael
Speaker 2: Seegers and Brussels and he told me that there's a
Speaker 2: chance that I would start that I would start having
Speaker 2: difficulty urinating after a couple of months because the scar
Speaker 2: tissue will form, and he says a simple dilation will
Speaker 2: fix it. And it did. But the first place I
Speaker 2: went was to a doc who other people had I
Speaker 2: knew had seen, and he said his partners had sort
Speaker 2: of forced him out into not treating transsexual people, so
Speaker 2: I couldn't see him. I went to another place and
Speaker 2: they sort of ran around waving their hands in the
Speaker 2: air and decided they were going to put me under
Speaker 2: into an exploratory procedure instead of fixing the problem. I
Speaker 2: remember being in the lobby. I don't usually cry, but
Speaker 2: I don't remember being in the lobby crying, and I
Speaker 2: decided again that this is bull. And the third place
Speaker 2: I went was a surgeon called Stephen Morgenstern who had
Speaker 2: an office on the North Side. He was known for
Speaker 2: like penal enhancements at that time. But I went to him.
Speaker 2: He fixed the problem immediately, and he told me that
Speaker 2: he had done surgery back in the day, you know,
Speaker 2: probably in the eighties. So I never found out, you know,
Speaker 2: exactly where he was based to do that, probably at
Speaker 2: Georgia Mental Health Institute, because they might have done some
Speaker 2: surger from people who were able to get it covered
Speaker 2: under private insurance, which only rarely happened then, or had
Speaker 2: the money not nearly as expensive then as it is now,
Speaker 2: but it was still quite.
Speaker 1: Expensive, right, And I mean just hearing that whole history
Speaker 1: of you trying to even seek out that treatment here
Speaker 1: in Georgia, it amazes me just because today not that
Speaker 1: much has changed unfortunately here in Georgia. And I mean
Speaker 1: even famously, I don't know if this was around the
Speaker 1: same time, but famously Robert Eves, who died of ovarian cancer,
Speaker 1: could not find any treatment in this state. Robert Eves
Speaker 1: was a transsexual man from Tacoa, Georgia, who died trying
Speaker 1: to find treatment for his advanced ovarian cancer. More than
Speaker 1: twenty doctors turned him away, many because they were practicing
Speaker 1: obgi ns and did not want to be associated with
Speaker 1: treating a man such as him. You can watch the
Speaker 1: documentary Southern Comfort, following the last four seasons of Robert
Speaker 1: Eves's life, for free on YouTube. It is an amazing
Speaker 1: film that I highly recommend, and a link will be
Speaker 1: in today's episode description. If you want to know what
Speaker 1: trans medical discrimination looks like, just a little bit of it,
Speaker 1: and what life for trans people was like in the
Speaker 1: South in the nineties, you must see the documentary Southern Comfort.
Speaker 2: I was running easiest at the time, I had compiled
Speaker 2: a list of places to go for help for treatment
Speaker 2: for support groups all over the country, and I knew
Speaker 2: Robert from Southern Comfort. Why was one of the many
Speaker 2: people who started that conference, and as was Robert. And
Speaker 2: Robert called me one day and he wanted to referral
Speaker 2: to a guynecologist. I gave him three names. One was
Speaker 2: the guynecologists I saw after my surgery after I'd been
Speaker 2: to Dr Morgenstern. The second had just done a HYS
Speaker 2: directory on another transman, and I forget the third. But
Speaker 2: I don't know what happened that he couldn't get treatment
Speaker 2: from someone, especially from the you know, although it could
Speaker 2: have been people's partners freaking out and saying, you know,
Speaker 2: we're not going to be appreciated with you if you
Speaker 2: do this again. But yeah, and then, and of course
Speaker 2: Robert developed ovarian cancer and died, and everyone loved him
Speaker 2: at Southern Comfort. He was such a Southern, classic Southern gentleman.
Speaker 2: He was always so polite to me.
Speaker 1: I've watched the documentary Southern Comfort, and that is a
Speaker 1: really awesome kind of glimpse into Southern trans life.
Speaker 2: At the time, I had never been to clubs because
Speaker 2: in Nashville they wouldn't let me in. Wow, you know,
Speaker 2: because I had a male id.
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow.
Speaker 2: I think it was because they were afraid of the police.
Speaker 2: Nashville had and still has a history of LGBT places
Speaker 2: mysteriously burning.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: So it was it was to me. So I had
Speaker 2: no experience, So I got to go to the clubs
Speaker 2: when I transitioned and came to Atlanta. There were some
Speaker 2: fabulous entertainment at the clubs. But aside from that, and
Speaker 2: there were a lot of trans women that were drag
Speaker 2: queens at the time. There still are and I believe
Speaker 2: in the last season of RuPaul's Drag Race four people
Speaker 2: yes with trans and the cast of about twelve.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: So the clubs had a scene. You know. There was
Speaker 2: a nurse who used to go around doing silicon pumping
Speaker 2: in the back rooms of bars and hotel rooms.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Perhaps the most famous in all the South, hosted
Speaker 1: at Atlanta's very own Backstreet, Charlie Brown's Cabaret was the
Speaker 1: pinnacle of drag entertainment. Most of the cast members were
Speaker 1: sis came in. It even featured the Goddess Raven friend
Speaker 1: of the pod Beyunknn called Bowser's drag Mother, but the
Speaker 1: cast also featured several trans women such as Seanna Brooks,
Speaker 1: mother of the House of Brooks, and Heather Daniels, Pam Anderson,
Speaker 1: bombshell type.
Speaker 2: And I had some friends in that community. And then
Speaker 2: there was the Montgomery Institute, and you know, they had
Speaker 2: a monthly support group meeting which I said they drafted
Speaker 2: me to run and based upon sort of tapestries publishing.
Speaker 2: Of all these other organizations, there was a pretty lively
Speaker 2: national scene of people doing zines, you know, little newsletters
Speaker 2: and little magazines, and there was a lot of discussion.
Speaker 2: One of the things that was under discussion was why
Speaker 2: do we call ourselves? Because we have these medical names.
Speaker 2: You know. Anne Boleyn, an anthropologist I know, called them
Speaker 2: slave names or similar to slave names. You know. We've
Speaker 2: even names like transsexual and transvestite, you know, and those
Speaker 2: were not the names we chose for ourselves. You know,
Speaker 2: we were living with those names, but they weren't. So
Speaker 2: what do we want to call our And I believe
Speaker 2: it was out of that discussion that the term transgender arose.
Speaker 2: It was one of many terms tossed out. I remember
Speaker 2: Virginia Prince, who founded that, you know, homophobic, transphobic organization
Speaker 2: back in the seventies. I guess it was she suggested
Speaker 2: by genderist. She was always making up words, and someone
Speaker 2: moved the hyphen to make it big enderous, and that
Speaker 2: was sort of the end of that. About the time
Speaker 2: of the March on Washington, Philis Fry and a couple
Speaker 2: of other activists were really up in the face of
Speaker 2: the organizers, and suddenly all of the gay meteor were
Speaker 2: talking about transgender, which was functioning as an umbrella to
Speaker 2: describe everybody under the term. Although it was not yet
Speaker 2: an identity. It was a descriptor. If you were a
Speaker 2: drag queen, you could be under the umbrella, if you
Speaker 2: were a cross dresser, if you were transsexual, And of
Speaker 2: course it quickly became an identity, and a lot of
Speaker 2: people today who might have identified as either a cross
Speaker 2: stress or transsexual or today identifying as trans or non binary. Right,
Speaker 2: And in fact, those old labels are becoming antiquated.
Speaker 1: Well, I want to talk more about that in just
Speaker 1: a second, because they're actually coming back in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways. But I want to back up here just
Speaker 1: something that I've noticed, you know, like I said, eighties
Speaker 1: and nineties. From what I've read, Atlanta had a lot
Speaker 1: of conventions. It had a lot of publications, as you said,
Speaker 1: zines and magazines and things like that. It had a
Speaker 1: lot of transactivity going on compared to like, you know, say,
Speaker 1: the rest of the South. Why Atlanta? What was special
Speaker 1: about Atlanta?
Speaker 2: You think, Well, I think for the same reason San
Speaker 2: Francisco and New York or centers. It's a place where
Speaker 2: people can come from their rural towns. It's sort of amazing.
Speaker 2: On RuPaul's drag Race, I'm married to someone who's infatuated
Speaker 2: with RuPaul's drag Race.
Speaker 1: Really, I'm friends with somebody who one season seven, so
Speaker 1: you can tell her that, well, we.
Speaker 2: Want drag Race Sweden, and drag Race Belgium, and Dragwace Spain.
Speaker 1: I love Aspanya, that's my favorite one.
Speaker 2: She's a virtuoso with a VPN. So we lug in
Speaker 2: so that that scene was going on. You know, there
Speaker 2: was the Sweet Gumhead, which was famous. It it just closed,
Speaker 2: I believe before I came RuPaul worked in the clubs
Speaker 2: before he became famous.
Speaker 1: Back up for a second about the Sweet Gum Club,
Speaker 1: because there's a book actually about.
Speaker 2: I just bought that book.
Speaker 1: It's a fantastic book.
Speaker 2: I may have learned about it from you.
Speaker 1: In fact, Oh wow, tell me about Sweet Gum a
Speaker 1: little bit about it?
Speaker 2: Well, no, I did. I never went because close there
Speaker 2: was a place called, at various times Lipsticks and Levitas,
Speaker 2: next to the Terra Theater, and they had some fabulous
Speaker 2: shows there. Or they did, like the Phantom of the
Speaker 2: Opera that I might as well have been on Broadway,
Speaker 2: it was that good. Yeah, they had pageants, so I
Speaker 2: would go to the pageants sometimes and be there five
Speaker 2: in the morning while I was working my full time
Speaker 2: job and running the Montgomery group. But except for that scene,
Speaker 2: and of course you know, I'm liking on the name
Speaker 2: of the punk singer.
Speaker 1: That Jane County.
Speaker 2: Jane County, Yes, I'm sorry, I'm seventy three. That happened sometimes,
Speaker 2: no worries.
Speaker 1: Jane County is a living legend from Dallas, Georgia, and
Speaker 1: the first trans woman to front a punk rock band.
Speaker 1: She was one of the trans women present at the
Speaker 1: Stonewall Riots of nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 2: You know, and Rue Paul was waiting in the clubs,
Speaker 2: waited on some friends of mine, you know, before he
Speaker 2: became famous. But except for that, it was just the
Speaker 2: Montgomery Institute and there was a gay center, and Lynn
Speaker 2: and Jerry had been working with the center to educate
Speaker 2: the lgb people, and b was at that time recently
Speaker 2: tacked on, so it was fairly new, and the tea
Speaker 2: wasn't yet associated. It was not LGBT in any measure
Speaker 2: at that time, because even the tea word was not there.
Speaker 2: And that was sort of it for the scene. But
Speaker 2: Sabrina Marcus was a trans woman from Florida, and she
Speaker 2: went to the headquarters of the International Foundation for Gender Education,
Speaker 2: which published Tapestry, and said, you know, there are these
Speaker 2: conventions in other places around the US. Why isn't there
Speaker 2: one in the South? Once, do one in Atlanta. It
Speaker 2: seems like a central location. That's another thing about Atlanta.
Speaker 2: It's a day's drive from the majority of the population
Speaker 2: of the United States. And if to E said, no,
Speaker 2: we won't put one on, but we'll show you how
Speaker 2: to do it, if you'll just get a bunch of
Speaker 2: people together. So using the resource list and I have
Speaker 2: to E had something called the Congress of Organizations, and
Speaker 2: you know, everyone was sort of at their conferences. Congress
Speaker 2: would meet and people will would meet one another and talk,
Speaker 2: and we were talking in all the newsletters, which is
Speaker 2: a slow way to go. Article comes out, you write
Speaker 2: it in two months later you see it your letter
Speaker 2: in the letter's column. But all of the organizations in
Speaker 2: the South met in Atlanta at Piedmont Boulevard. It was
Speaker 2: then a Lakina. I don't know what it is now.
Speaker 2: Hotels have a habit of changing through three years. And
Speaker 2: we met and we said, well, what are we going
Speaker 2: to call this conference? You know, what's the what's the function?
Speaker 2: What are we going to do? And out of that
Speaker 2: came Southern Comfort and that was just such impetus. Also
Speaker 2: at the time, the groups, a lot of the groups
Speaker 2: in Southern Comfort would kind of I'm sorry, a lot
Speaker 2: of the groups in Trias a society for the second self,
Speaker 2: the heterosexual cross dresser group, we'd go wild and just
Speaker 2: let anybody go and anybody participate who wanted. So they
Speaker 2: were having like weekend long mini conferences every week, and
Speaker 2: every trans person in town would sort of show up.
Speaker 2: It didn't cost any money, and you know, people would
Speaker 2: go shopping and they would go out to eat and
Speaker 2: sit around and shoot the bull and play music, So
Speaker 2: Southern Comfort was a huge drive. I think we had
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty people maybe the first year, and
Speaker 2: you know, they were up to nine hundred at the
Speaker 2: peak before it sort of imploded. And that just made
Speaker 2: for synergy, you know, and I within a year I
Speaker 2: had split from Linen Jerry. They were very old school
Speaker 2: about transsexualism. You know, our girls have a birthday fact
Speaker 2: and we fix them and then they're normal, and I
Speaker 2: was that was not where I was coming from. I
Speaker 2: was first I wanted to be inclusive. I didn't want
Speaker 2: anyone to be cut out, and I got a lot
Speaker 2: of sniping from the lines when I was running the group,
Speaker 2: So and so is not really a transsexual, They're just
Speaker 2: a cross dresser. And then someone else will say so
Speaker 2: and so is just really a drag queen, And I'm like,
Speaker 2: any one, you know that once treatment should be able
Speaker 2: to get it, and there's no reason to not have
Speaker 2: an open group. And open groups were sort of rare
Speaker 2: at the time, but so for about a year or two,
Speaker 2: the Triass group function as an open group, and Montgomery's
Speaker 2: weren't an open group. But eventually one of the founders
Speaker 2: was sort of organic. She had chronic fatigue syndrome and
Speaker 2: was having some brain issues and she got very paranoid,
Speaker 2: and so I moved out. And I continued to go
Speaker 2: to their meetings until they told me I couldn't come
Speaker 2: because I was a threat because I was writing. So
Speaker 2: I founded the Atlanta Gender Exploration Support Group, which ran
Speaker 2: until recently. It was an open group. And I founded
Speaker 2: the Atlanta Educational Gender Information Service when I chose that
Speaker 2: acronym because it could easily become America. And I launched
Speaker 2: Chrysalis Quarterly and it was It started is two sheets
Speaker 2: of paper, one for Chrystalis and one for AGIS, and
Speaker 2: I launched it, and a woman called a trans woman
Speaker 2: called Margot Schaeffer sort of did a design for us.
Speaker 2: She gave us like a font and a look for
Speaker 2: the magazine and a look for our letter head. And
Speaker 2: I guess because of my professional credentials, you know, I
Speaker 2: had masters in in psychology and had a license. I
Speaker 2: was licensed in Tennessee, which is one of the few
Speaker 2: states that would license master's level psychologists. I just had
Speaker 2: this instant credibility. It was just amazing, you know. So
Speaker 2: I had all these big professionals on the advisory board.
Speaker 2: Chrysalis was a theme based magazine, and it was glossy
Speaker 2: at a time when everybody some people were still mimeographing
Speaker 2: magazines in the early nineties. I just had this credibility,
Speaker 2: you know, when I was writing. I was writing stuff
Speaker 2: to go in Atlanta's gay papers that would help gay
Speaker 2: men and lesbians understand the trans experience, and it just
Speaker 2: sort of just sort of bloomed. Jamie Roberts came to
Speaker 2: the Atlanta Gender Explorations Group and she just flourished, and
Speaker 2: Aaron Swinson, who's a therapist, did and they all started
Speaker 2: creating things on their own. After a while, it was
Speaker 2: just fueling other organizations, and with the adoption of the transidentity,
Speaker 2: we just sort of exploded all over the country, all
Speaker 2: over the world.
Speaker 1: Really, hey, listeners, we're going to take one quick break
Speaker 1: here and we'll be right back with more from Dallas.
Speaker 1: Denny and we're back. Can you talk just a little
Speaker 1: bit more about what the purpose, just maybe define a
Speaker 1: little bit more of what the philosophy and the goal
Speaker 1: of Chrysalis and Aegis were at the time.
Speaker 2: Well, one of my motives was, I mean, all I
Speaker 2: really wanted to do was transition and I find myself drafted,
Speaker 2: and I'm realizing, you know, I'm good at this. You know,
Speaker 2: I can type, I can write, I know computers. You
Speaker 2: know I have a background as a mental health professional.
Speaker 2: But I was really looking for was to transition. But
Speaker 2: I quickly realized, you know, all my life, I could
Speaker 2: find new information. You know, I was smart, I was
Speaker 2: well educated, I was I just couldn't. I just couldn't
Speaker 2: find it. And there are people there have to be
Speaker 2: people like me all around who I mean, I'd finally
Speaker 2: found my tribe, there have to be all those people
Speaker 2: who have not found that tribe yet. And I couldn't,
Speaker 2: in good conscious just walk away from that. And so
Speaker 2: when I founded as it was with the idea that
Speaker 2: you know, I found that the ordinary rules of comportment,
Speaker 2: even among medical professionals, sort of went by the wayside
Speaker 2: when it came to us, and that they would say
Speaker 2: things and do things that they would never do to
Speaker 2: any other marginalized group of people. And I wanted to
Speaker 2: stop that, and that was the mission statement of aegis.
Speaker 2: And I decided that Christlus would be theme based. So
Speaker 2: we had an issue on transsexual surgery. We had an
Speaker 2: issue on spirituality. I hated God growing up that my
Speaker 2: parents sent me to Baptist Bible School, and God was
Speaker 2: just this horrible person who had his own son killed
Speaker 2: and played head games with Adam and Eve and told
Speaker 2: Abraham to kill a son, just kidding Abraham. Who is this?
Speaker 2: You know? I was pretty hostile towards God until I realized,
Speaker 2: who are the Baptists to have any real idea about
Speaker 2: who God is exactly? You know? And I would reconnect
Speaker 2: with my spirituality and I felt there was a feminine
Speaker 2: or non binary nature that God wasn't some angry old
Speaker 2: white man. Imagine that that was good for my soul,
Speaker 2: I think. But the magazine just took off and I
Speaker 2: was able to do so much running you I had
Speaker 2: an influence on the It was then w Path was
Speaker 2: then the Harry Benjamin International Gendernice for Association. First, the
Speaker 2: director took offense at something I put in Chrystalis and
Speaker 2: would not process my application. What was a member?
Speaker 1: What was that that he took offense?
Speaker 2: Well? And the first issue of Chrystalis I had a
Speaker 2: dumb ass quotation of the month and the smart ass
Speaker 2: quotation of the month and the dumb ass quotation was
Speaker 2: by a really good man, Donald Lobb, and I think
Speaker 2: he wrote it to broach the subject to his fellow surgeons,
Speaker 2: who probably weren't positive to the idea of reconstructive surgery
Speaker 2: for trans people. But he opened an article in the
Speaker 2: Journal of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery with a sentence to
Speaker 2: change in individuals God given sex as a repugnant concept,
Speaker 2: which is an amazing thing to appear in a medical journal.
Speaker 2: And so I called, he got the dumbass quote. The
Speaker 2: director of HABIGDA was Judy van Masdam, who was the
Speaker 2: office manager for LOB and my smart ass quote was
Speaker 2: of Money, who said, you know, essentially money and Primrose
Speaker 2: is the paper he said. Now that transsexuals know that
Speaker 2: they have an interest in says just they'll all start
Speaker 2: presenting with this and this, because they read the literature
Speaker 2: as if that were something anybody else didn't do. I mean,
Speaker 2: I can you imagine having cancer and not reading up
Speaker 2: about it. We were at fault for reading up about
Speaker 2: our own condition. But Judy took offense at me taking
Speaker 2: potshots at two people. And I finally, I've sent ten applications,
Speaker 2: I wrote, I called, and finally I caught her live
Speaker 2: and she proceeds to tell me who am I? I'm
Speaker 2: you just a consumer, you know? And I'm well, you know,
Speaker 2: I have met I have my professional credentials too, and yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm a consumer. What's the problem with that? And she
Speaker 2: told me love and money were gods and said they're
Speaker 2: just people. Know they're gods, you know, and you will
Speaker 2: never be in a bigdom. So I'm like, well, we'll
Speaker 2: see about that. So Leah Schaeffer was the board chair.
Speaker 2: She was a very wonderful psychiatrist in New York City.
Speaker 2: And I wrote her a letter and I attached all
Speaker 2: my letters and a list of phone calls in a
Speaker 2: description of my phone call with Judy, and I said,
Speaker 2: you know, I've been trying to join this organization, and
Speaker 2: this is the response to my request. At this point,
Speaker 2: I don't even know if I want to join the organization,
Speaker 2: but I wanted you to be aware this is going on.
Speaker 2: So I get an application from Lee in the mail,
Speaker 2: and suddenly Judy is no longer the executive director. And
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was an oath to this day,
Speaker 2: if it wasn't over my dead body thing, or if
Speaker 2: it was just time for her to go. But then
Speaker 2: I got in wpath and from the inside I was
Speaker 2: able to say, you cannot make special requirements for people
Speaker 2: because they're transsexual that you do not require by the
Speaker 2: groups of people. You know, why should you. I mean
Speaker 2: they were making you have letters for breast surgery either
Speaker 2: augmentation or reduction, mammoplasty for the men, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: you have to have data to justify this, and that
Speaker 2: was an alien concept to them because they were Thus,
Speaker 2: those people were remnants of the old gender clinics with
Speaker 2: a you know, you're not screwed up to me transsexual mentality.
Speaker 1: Right, And that was at the time kind of there
Speaker 1: were a lot of gatekeeping measures like, for example, if
Speaker 1: you were a trans woman and you were attracted to women,
Speaker 1: that was considered a reason.
Speaker 2: Well, I have a list. I wrote about it somewhere
Speaker 2: and you know, if you were me, if you didn't pass.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, well, I have a couple of I
Speaker 1: have a couple of things that you've written that I
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you about. I have your Steps to
Speaker 1: the Transsexual Autobiography.
Speaker 2: We had a narrative and it was based on Christine Jorgenson,
Speaker 2: and it was you had to follow that narrative to
Speaker 2: be accepted by the gender clinics. And I knew that,
Speaker 2: and I wasn't gonna fake my narrative to them because
Speaker 2: I was looking for authenticity and not wanting to tell
Speaker 2: lies about myself. So there were just hundreds and now
Speaker 2: there may be thousands of autobiographies that follow the wrong
Speaker 2: body narrative. Now, certainly the anguish we feel, the pain,
Speaker 2: the rejection is characteristic of us. But there's more to
Speaker 2: life than just that, you know, And we don't all
Speaker 2: decide to have the transition or have surgery at the
Speaker 2: end of a barrel of a gun or the point
Speaker 2: of the knife. And I, you know, I was a
Speaker 2: big champion of the healthy transgender model that arose I
Speaker 2: call it in the nineties. I don't want us to
Speaker 2: be mentally ill because we're not. I don't want us
Speaker 2: to have to pretend to be mentally ill to get
Speaker 2: the same sorts of treatments people with other conditions might have.
Speaker 1: Do you see that happening today in the arguments. It's
Speaker 1: a controversial topic, but there's arguments you know, in every state, well,
Speaker 1: especially in the South, lots of.
Speaker 2: Art it is so scary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and banning trans healthcare for first, it starts with
Speaker 1: children and then it ends up, you know, coming for adults.
Speaker 1: But I was going to ask you, do you think
Speaker 1: that there's kind of a parallel there in what we
Speaker 1: see today and back then.
Speaker 2: Also, well, you know, I wrote an article about sort
Speaker 2: of the openness of the Weimar Republic in Germany after
Speaker 2: World War One, and there was a flourishing scene with
Speaker 2: people publishing, you know, clubs, and people doing newsletters and
Speaker 2: people doing political activism. And then the Nazis came in
Speaker 2: and it changed like that, And that worries me about
Speaker 2: this country because we you know, suddenly you know, Franklin, Tennessee,
Speaker 2: where I drove through when I was on a trip
Speaker 2: to the South, that's not just baned pride, Yeah, because
Speaker 2: so many you know, misinformed, hateful minded people just playing
Speaker 2: to the city management.
Speaker 1: There's banned any public drag which can be applied to
Speaker 1: a trans woman that they.
Speaker 2: Exactly, you know, who are you to say, you know,
Speaker 2: you look like you were born male or born female
Speaker 2: to me, so cops aren't going to differentiate that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: It's very scary and I've not been I've not been
Speaker 2: scared for a long time. But this is This does
Speaker 2: not bode well. I mean, democracy itself is under an
Speaker 2: attack in this country and considerable portion of the population
Speaker 2: is swallowing the big lie.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, it's terrifying.
Speaker 2: The two focuses seemed to be well, first was kids. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, we're grooming kids.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, when I was a trans kid, I knew
Speaker 2: exactly who I was and what I wanted. Yeah, it
Speaker 2: was young. But we're grooming kids and we're ruining them
Speaker 2: and most of them desist, which is not true. And
Speaker 2: now it's on drag queens and they're indecent for some reason.
Speaker 2: They can't quite explain exactly.
Speaker 1: In some of your previous Poe or not post publishings,
Speaker 1: you used pseudonyms to talk about, you know, specific instances.
Speaker 1: One instance of like a woman having silicone injections that
Speaker 1: went wrong. Another instance of a woman named Sharon and
Speaker 1: her experience at a gender clinic, and I just find it,
Speaker 1: I found it really fascinating, this little tidbit. But it's
Speaker 1: about Sharon, who underwent post operative surgery as a male
Speaker 1: to female transsexual, and she went to the gender clinics
Speaker 1: to try and be treated, but they refused to treat her.
Speaker 1: Because once again they were saying the same thing. Tell
Speaker 1: me just about the use of the pseudonyms and your writing.
Speaker 2: At the time, there were people I did not want
Speaker 2: to identify by name because it might put them into
Speaker 2: danger or embarrassed them. And that's the only time I did.
Speaker 2: Most of the authors were in that contributed to the
Speaker 2: magazine were happy to use their names. And that's some time.
Speaker 2: A lot of people who were not transitioned had two
Speaker 2: names anyway, right, so they didn't risk a lot by
Speaker 2: using the they call them fem names, but by using
Speaker 2: their second name. And when I wrote about my own,
Speaker 2: my own experience, I went to Michael Segers and Brussels
Speaker 2: for my genital surgery. I wrote an article and etc.
Speaker 2: Magazine in Atlanta, I called my sex change in Brussels,
Speaker 2: and I used the pseudonym for myself because I was
Speaker 2: working and I did not want to kind of push
Speaker 2: that button too hard. No one where I worked had
Speaker 2: any idea about me. Yeah, until someone out in me.
Speaker 2: It was Montgomery's. They were mad at me.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's horrible.
Speaker 2: Well, I was competition and anyone who had ever crossed
Speaker 2: paths with them, they ran them out of town. And
Speaker 2: I was the first one that they couldn't run out
Speaker 2: of town. So I became an enemy.
Speaker 1: And he was a transsexual man, is that right?
Speaker 2: He was the transman. She was a woman that worked
Speaker 2: at the clinic. Yeah, okay, but you know, I became
Speaker 2: a threat because I challenged her model, really yeah.
Speaker 1: Which was a very medical model.
Speaker 2: It was a very medical model. And I was, I was,
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, we need medical treatment, but we don't
Speaker 2: have to. We shouldn't have to be pathologized to get it.
Speaker 1: So we're all not on the same track.
Speaker 2: Also, And yeah, I why should you know? And I
Speaker 2: wrote one piece about two very different approaches to women
Speaker 2: took towards their non traditional ways they approached their own transition.
Speaker 2: One just could not stand it any longer. And she
Speaker 2: worked at AT and T. And she walked into the office,
Speaker 2: and she had every sort of unfortunate male characteristic a
Speaker 2: transsexual woman could have. So she was really tall, and
Speaker 2: she had really big hands and feet. She'd lost her hair,
Speaker 2: she had a big, square jaw. And this is not
Speaker 2: anything that was her fault. We just get to genetics,
Speaker 2: we get she reached your bawling point. I think she
Speaker 2: had genderedice for you all a lot more than I did.
Speaker 2: She walks into AT and T and clocks in the
Speaker 2: Montgomerys had been working with her therapists to educate the
Speaker 2: management of AT and T and she sort of blew
Speaker 2: it by walking in the next taste, she walks in
Speaker 2: and three thousand people are lined up to watch her
Speaker 2: walk in and punch the card and they just stood
Speaker 2: there and said not word one. That was enough to
Speaker 2: put her in the mental hospital for a week, because
Speaker 2: you know, she was very vulnerable at that point, but
Speaker 2: she did what she needed to do. Another woman, she
Speaker 2: just she started hormones. She was working for the state.
Speaker 2: She was actually doing working in a state garage, but
Speaker 2: she and she looked almost exactly like Reba McIntyre. So
Speaker 2: all the after a while on hormones, everyone thinks she's
Speaker 2: a female. Anyway, she's wearing coveralls, so dresses in an
Speaker 2: issue and so it was never even addressed at work.
Speaker 2: And I knew a trans man who did the same
Speaker 2: thing at work. And who's to say when her real
Speaker 2: life experience.
Speaker 1: Began, right, because it's kind of bleming.
Speaker 2: I was just always questioning artificial limits upon us, arbitrarily
Speaker 2: placed upon us by professionals At the same time, I
Speaker 2: really believe you need to be educated before you make
Speaker 2: permanent changes to your body. You need to understand any
Speaker 2: risks that you take.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because that's the important part of informed consent is Yeah.
Speaker 2: It is, and you know, and so you need to
Speaker 2: think about stuff beyond just signing an informed consent agreement.
Speaker 1: One of the agous advertisements of the day, the PSA
Speaker 1: of the day was don't be sorry, be sure test
Speaker 1: drive your new equipment before you, you know, purchase.
Speaker 2: Yeah. We did medical advisories about hormones, about smoking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, about silicone injections, the dangerous curves ahead and silicone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Margo designed that, and she made me aware of
Speaker 2: the problem with silicone.
Speaker 1: But well even today, not even just injectable silicone. But
Speaker 1: I've been more. I know three trans women now who
Speaker 1: have had breast and plants removed from breast and plant illness,
Speaker 1: which is not really recognized. Still, so we're on the
Speaker 1: still on the cutting edge of this kind of stuff
Speaker 1: in a way, Hey, listeners, we're going to take our
Speaker 1: last break of the episode here. Stay tuned as we
Speaker 1: wrap up our conversation with Dallas. Denny, welcome back. Just
Speaker 1: before we kind of wrap up. I want to talk
Speaker 1: about some of the highlights of your career, because you
Speaker 1: have some, I mean two very significant. I mean everything
Speaker 1: we've talked about so far is significant. But you, of
Speaker 1: course founded the first Southern Comfort conference, but you also
Speaker 1: found one of many, yeah, one of and you also
Speaker 1: started the first ever FtM Conference of the Americas.
Speaker 2: I did a challenge grant and then I called jameson
Speaker 2: Green of FtM International you might not even done international
Speaker 2: at the time in San Francisco, and gave him a
Speaker 2: heads up because I said we would. He just would
Speaker 2: pay five hundred bucks, which I didn't have to any
Speaker 2: nonprofit that would match it for putting on a national
Speaker 2: conference for trans man and Jamison left the room that
Speaker 2: night with five hundred dollars in pledges. Wow, I got
Speaker 2: the I had to send the money into installments a
Speaker 2: couple of sports.
Speaker 1: You had to hold up her end of the bargain.
Speaker 2: I mean the trans with the exception of the of IFGE.
Speaker 2: None of the trans organizations had a budget over twenty
Speaker 2: five thousand dollars and most of that was going into
Speaker 2: printing and equipment right supplies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you also wrote the first scientific literature on transsexualism
Speaker 1: ever written by a transsexual.
Speaker 2: Once I started finding material, I just started accumulating this
Speaker 2: big database. And Vern Bullow, who was a sexologist in California,
Speaker 2: I was giving it away with subscriptions to Chrysalist and
Speaker 2: he said you should if you thought about publishing this,
Speaker 2: and I said, I'd love to publish it, and in
Speaker 2: the mail I get a contract from Garland and I
Speaker 2: did a second book for them, which was an edited
Speaker 2: textbook with chapters by all kinds of people that sort
Speaker 2: of looked at the state of things. Richard Green and
Speaker 2: John Monny's book nineteen sixty nine book Transsexualism and Sex
Speaker 2: or Assignment sort of laid out a multidisciplinary approach to
Speaker 2: treating trans people and so I want to really revisited
Speaker 2: that a little bit and how things had changed. And
Speaker 2: so I'm very proud of those two books. And for
Speaker 2: a long time I didn't have a second book because
Speaker 2: I sold a couple of copies and the Lesbian Herstory
Speaker 2: Archives in Brooklyn contacted me and said, well, we didn't
Speaker 2: get ours, So I got lost in the mail and
Speaker 2: I sent them my last copy, and then buying copy
Speaker 2: of the book was, you know, was like one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty dollars, so I didn't have a copy of
Speaker 2: my own book for nearly two hours. Now it's a
Speaker 2: text fortunately expensive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, textbooks are not cheap. Well, that is fantastic. And
Speaker 1: as we've established, you know, and everything we've talked about already,
Speaker 1: all of the understanding of trans people up to that
Speaker 1: point really was shaped by CIS individuals and the medical
Speaker 1: profession and kind of those gatekeeping models. So fantastic work
Speaker 1: and kind of opening up the access to care and stuff,
Speaker 1: I think for future generations of trans people. But I
Speaker 1: want to talk to you about something that comes up
Speaker 1: in modern day in the trans community. You know, how
Speaker 1: we have As you said, back in the day, it
Speaker 1: would take months for the things you're writing to show
Speaker 1: up in print and stuff. But now we have discourse
Speaker 1: you know, online in chat rooms things like that, and
Speaker 1: people are often say that gender dysphoria is not real,
Speaker 1: gender dysphoia does not exist. Just what are your thoughts
Speaker 1: on that? Because you wrote a book about gender justice,
Speaker 1: that was the term at the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think it works as a descriptive
Speaker 2: term for the anguish and pain we feel when we
Speaker 2: can't live authentically Yeah, in terms of it being a
Speaker 2: male illness, no, I don't think so, although it can
Speaker 2: be debilitating depending on how strongly you feel it. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was enough from the woman I talked about who
Speaker 2: went into AT and T for her to make a
Speaker 2: sort of a rash personal decision. But people do that
Speaker 2: all the time anyway, right, So yeah, we need to
Speaker 2: move beyond it. There's a lot of history with that
Speaker 2: term too. You know, it's evolved over the years from
Speaker 2: the seventies.
Speaker 1: So when you say, like, move beyond it, like just well,
Speaker 1: people I think are replacing it more with like the
Speaker 1: term like gender euphoria. What do you feel about that
Speaker 1: instead of gener That.
Speaker 2: Was the name of a newsletter in the nineties. Oh really,
Speaker 2: And when you find resolution for those feelings and are
Speaker 2: able to express them, there's absolutely a feeling of euphoria.
Speaker 2: I'm involved with a transconference called Fantasia Fair, which is
Speaker 2: now Transgender Week, which has been happening on the tip
Speaker 2: of Cape cod since nineteen seventy five, and it's a
Speaker 2: week long and many people who go it's their first
Speaker 2: chance to express themselves authentically and they can for an
Speaker 2: entire week in the entire town because no one looks
Speaker 2: twice at anybody in that town, Profitstown, And so we
Speaker 2: actually have a workshop which we urge them to kind
Speaker 2: of let things simmer down for a couple of weeks
Speaker 2: before they make life altering decisions, because they're going to
Speaker 2: be euphoric when they get home. They're so wow. You know,
Speaker 2: this is wonderful. I don't want it to.
Speaker 1: Stop, right, But you can't let that euphoria lead you,
Speaker 1: as you know, as much as you can't let the
Speaker 1: dysphoria lead you either. You kind of have to find
Speaker 1: the balance between the two.
Speaker 2: Term euphoria. I think it's mostly transitory. It's just sort
Speaker 2: of like you can get that kind of euphor you
Speaker 2: if you get any pony, you know. Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: it's similar to that, but it's certainly not a harmful
Speaker 2: term in any way. I think it's a useful term.
Speaker 1: I agree. Yeah, I want to ask more on language here,
Speaker 1: because language is ever evolving and the euphemism treadmill and
Speaker 1: all of that. But we talked, we hinted at it
Speaker 1: the word transsexual how in the nineties, and you can
Speaker 1: actually read and kind of watch the progression of from
Speaker 1: reading the publications Christlis and all of that. You can
Speaker 1: watch the progression of the word transsexual too, transgender. What
Speaker 1: do you think of the erasure of the word transsexual
Speaker 1: and then the current rebirth that we are experiencing of
Speaker 1: the word transsexual. People are reidentifying with that term to
Speaker 1: state that they are a trans person, who is someone
Speaker 1: who is transitioning.
Speaker 2: I think think there is utility in differentiating people who
Speaker 2: transition and change their bodies medically from other gender variant
Speaker 2: people because they have different medical needs, they have different
Speaker 2: psychological needs. So I identify both as transsexual and transgender
Speaker 2: and probably always will maintain a transsexual identity because I
Speaker 2: think it has I think it has utility.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I agree with that too. So did you feel
Speaker 1: like when like there was a period of time when
Speaker 1: the word transsexual was almost considered like canceled.
Speaker 2: I guess you would go, has word sex in it,
Speaker 2: you know, and it was bestowed upon us. I remember
Speaker 2: I have a transsexual menace T shirt in my collap two.
Speaker 2: Actually we spelled it with one s, just as a
Speaker 2: fuck you to the medical community.
Speaker 1: Gotcha. Yeah, I love that. I just want to wrap
Speaker 1: up with this last little thought here. What are your
Speaker 1: thoughts on the current state of transactivism and what are
Speaker 1: your Do you have any advice for the future of transactivism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we all do what we can. Sometimes
Speaker 2: people don't feel safe doing certain things. Well, if you
Speaker 2: don't feel safe getting your name out there, fund someone
Speaker 2: who does. I think our primary need at this point
Speaker 2: in time is to have a cohesive national strategy to
Speaker 2: combat all this hysteria about drag queens and trans kids,
Speaker 2: because if we just go about it piecemeal, we're gonna
Speaker 2: sort of fizzle out. I think, so ACLS doing some
Speaker 2: legendary work in that Transgender Legal Defense Fund, you know,
Speaker 2: support those organizations, and we need to probably have a
Speaker 2: national conference to plots of people in leadership positions to
Speaker 2: plot strategy because there's certainly scheming on the other side
Speaker 2: what to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we don't really see that happening, you know
Speaker 1: people or.
Speaker 2: Jamison Green was that creating change last year and he
Speaker 2: said just what I just said, and everyone's laughing because
Speaker 2: they couldn't kind of conceive it. But I mean, this
Speaker 2: is a very real threat. It's liable to get worse,
Speaker 2: and it can get dangerous for us, not that it's
Speaker 2: not already dangerous, but it can get far more dangerous us.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, and we want to protect our future. Well, Dallas,
Speaker 1: thank you for spending the time with us today. I
Speaker 1: really appreciate you sharing your words and thoughts and everything
Speaker 1: with us.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much. I had a good time.
Speaker 1: Can I don't know if you have social media, but
Speaker 1: can you tell us where listeners can find you and
Speaker 1: engage with your work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on Facebook, okay, And I have a website
Speaker 2: where all my work or almost all my work is archived,
Speaker 2: and that's just my name dot com Dallas Danny dot com.
Speaker 1: Yes, fabulous and also the Transgender Digital Transgender Archive, wonderful
Speaker 1: wealth of knowledge.
Speaker 2: If you google my name there a lot of stuff
Speaker 2: will come on.
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, a lot. It's fun to read. Well, thank
Speaker 1: you Dallas. It was wonderful talking with you today.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Carn.
Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for tuning into this week's episode.
Speaker 1: I was so thrilled to be able to sit down
Speaker 1: with the Dallas Denny to talk to her about her
Speaker 1: life's work and all of the contributions she's made to
Speaker 1: the community, especially here in the South. I hope you
Speaker 1: all have a fabulous week. I will see you on
Speaker 1: Monday for another Beauty Translated minisode and please, if you
Speaker 1: haven't already, leave us a rating and review over on
Speaker 1: Apple podcast. It means the world to me. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much and have a fabulous week. Beauty Translated is
Speaker 1: hosted by me Carmen Laurent and produced by Kurt Garen
Speaker 1: and Jessica Crinchicch, with production assistance from Jennifer Bassett. Special
Speaker 1: thanks to Ali Perry and Alie Canter for their support.
Speaker 1: Our theme song is composed by Aaron Kaufman. Beauty Translated
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