WEBVTT - Time > Money w/ Ben Miller #719 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.400 Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:06.600 and today we're talking about why time is greater than 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:30.600 money with Ben Miller. Actually, time it's easily our most 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:33.640 precious resource, but it's not often that we take the 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:36.639 time to figure out how it is that we're going 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.880 to spend our minutes and our hours, which then inevitably 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:43.600 turn into weeks and years. And then if you completely 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:45.479 fail to do this like that is when you end 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:49.320 up as the proverbial careerist, right where you're looking back 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:51.720 at the wasted decades wishing that you would have done 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:55.200 something differently. And luckily, our guest today, Ben Miller, he 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.320 actually did shake things up. He traded a position on 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.640 Wall Street with golden sacks for a fulfilling. 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:02.360 Life out there in Colorado. 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:06.800 He chose meaning over money, and he's actually on a 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:10.160 quest to help others to discover what a fulfilling life 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.560 is for them with the software that he's developed, Chronify. 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.080 So we're gonna talk about that, and you know, I'm 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:18.280 excited for what I think will be a wide ranging 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.640 conversation all about personal finances, but specifically with time at 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.399 the center of pretty much everything that we talk about today. So, 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:27.600 Ben Miller, thank you so much for joining us today 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:28.240 on the podcast. 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:30.119 Thanks a lot for having me. I'm excited to be. 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.840 Here, Ben, We're excited for this combo and Matt and 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:35.280 I we you know, you know, we like craft beer 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.000 and everyone knows that at this point, no secret. But 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:40.320 we spend I think the current beer is just one 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:42.240 single can of beer and it costs like seven dollars 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:43.800 and fifty cents, which a lot of people would say, 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.000 that's that's crazy. I need a twelve is at the 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:48.120 accurate price tag right there? I think so? Yeah, it 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:51.360 liters has seven dollars and twenty nine cents. It's not cheap. 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:55.240 That's ridiculous, right, So we spend too much, some would 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:57.480 say on craft beer, but we're also being intentional. We're 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.160 saving investing for the future while we spend exordinantly on 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.920 something that we care about. I'm curious, what's that for you? 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:04.160 What's your craft beer equivalent? 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.120 Hmm? My craft beer equivalent, I'd say, would definitely have 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:11.160 to be strategy board games. So I'm outing myself is 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:13.960 a huge door here. But those sometimes can go for 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.240 like a one hundred bucks a pop, but well worth it. 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:18.320 Hours of family fun. 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:19.480 Okay, which game? 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.160 Because I think when I share this love, Yes, we 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:25.480 also are nerdy, our lovers of nerdy board games. But 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.280 when we go on our beach vacation every night, every 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:29.960 night we're there, we're playing a nerdy board game game. 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:35.200 Carcassone Sellers of Catan, We're playing Puerto Rico acchoir a choir. 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.560 So what game you guys know, the whole gamut? Then 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:41.760 this is normally people's eyes glaze over when. 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.359 Yeah, yeah, they're like, wait, are you talking about Monopoly? 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:46.880 Like yeah, no, no, we're not like leave that for the 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.040 kids like in the nineties risks for children. 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:51.000 We're talking about the big ones. 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:52.080 Are you talking about Clue? 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.720 No? Okay, so what game are you dropping one hundred 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.359 one hundred plus dollars on especially level? 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:02.080 Yeah, it's like kickst harder stuff. So all these like 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:04.720 you know, big kind of space opera sort of games 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:07.920 or whatever, and so it'll be you know, sometimes one 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:09.440 or two hundred bucks and then you got to wait 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:11.200 a couple of years for them to actually make it. 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:13.440 But that's you know, my my wife and I are 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:15.959 idea of a great Saturday night is like sitting down 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.000 over the board game table and trying to prove to 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:18.919 each other who's smarter. 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:23.080 So that's kind of who is the most cutthroat. 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:25.640 She lets you win sometimes, right, Yeah. 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:29.120 Once, It's funny you mentioned Carcassone, Like we almost lost 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:32.160 our relationship over that because I just we were. 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.760 Playing Settlers that the folks are going after each other's 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:36.200 throats for. 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.040 We were we were like trading games, you know, kind 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.320 of evenly matched, and then she started just whipping me 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:43.520 on the regular, and I was like, what is going on? 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.320 And then I discovered she had the app on her 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.480 phone and so she was just getting all kinds of extracurriculum. 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:54.000 She was honing, honing her skills. Yes, dude, I love it. Okay, 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.080 So final question relatable games. What what game are you 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:00.680 currently playing a whole lot or with friends? 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:03.520 Yeah, I'd say one of our recent favorites has been 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:07.840 a game called ark Nova. It's like a zoo building game. 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.560 Of all, oh, I'm running down right now. 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.480 Yeah, you kind of whatever building closures and put animals 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:15.960 in them, and I love it. Got to catch them 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:16.520 all type. 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:21.480 So nerdy, so dorky, but I love it. The last 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:24.560 one we cracked Open, uh for the first time was wingspan, 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:29.120 which yes, yeah, were one of the prettiest, prettiest, and 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.200 you get to learn because you're learning about these actual 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.000 species of birds and the eggs and how much they 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:36.560 typically lay and where they nest, and I mean it's 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:40.800 it's yeah, that's right, Okay, before we completely lose all 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:44.160 of our listeners and we gotta start talking about money 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.040 and for for you personally, I mean, like you said 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.479 that you were pursuing what you would call conventional. 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:51.600 Success for most of your life, Like you had good. 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.719 Grades, the right school, big time job, but you found 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:56.520 that it wasn't fulfilling. 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:58.760 So what did you find was missing? 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.440 And specifically, like what what caused you to have like 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:03.000 a come to Jesus moment? 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.480 Yeah, it's a it's a good question. I first of all, 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.640 I felt very strange and like almost ungrateful because I 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.520 was super, super lucky to have that position, you know, 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:14.320 to be in that role. It was kind of like 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:16.680 a pinch me sort of job that I felt like 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:18.000 a lot of people would kill for. And so I 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:19.440 was I was wondering what's wrong with me? Like why 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.440 can't I appreciate this? But what really kind of made 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.359 it come to a head. Was you know, I was 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:28.760 watching people, you know, either either retire or you know, 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:31.719 move on. And so I watched one guy in particular 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:34.000 retire at like forty five, and he was, you know, minted, 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:36.200 had a bunch of money and all that kind of stuff, 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.159 and so most people look at him and go, man, 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.680 nice job, you know, you win the game. And I 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.960 was looking at him and going like, geez, I hope 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:46.120 that's not me. I hope by the time I'm forty five, 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:48.880 you know, I've done more than just this. And that 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:51.000 was kind of a shot across the bow for me 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.400 where I knew, you know, I'd known for a while 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:55.159 that it wasn't what I wanted to do with my 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.880 with my entire life, but that that really kind of, 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.680 you know, set thing in motion where I realized, like, Okay, 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.599 how do I not become this? You know, how do 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:06.840 I not become this person who's only done this? How 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.000 do I how do I make something and help people 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:09.880 by the time I get there. 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:13.360 M So, your desire to go out there, strike it 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.919 on your own, start your own business, start chronify? Was 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.000 that more because you didn't think your Wall Street job 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:19.640 was doing good in the world and you wanted to 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:21.640 do good in the world, or was it more because 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:23.360 you wanted more control over your time? 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:23.800 Like? 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:24.839 Was it? Was it both? 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:25.520 How? Yeah? 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:26.920 What was the thought process there? 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:29.520 Yeah, you're pointing out a little bit of circularity here. 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.160 I mean, because the very the very product that I'm 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.640 out there, you know, out there trying to trying to 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:36.520 put into the world now, is that is based on 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:40.920 the precursor to or it's based on the product that 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:42.560 I used to convince myself that it was time to 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.360 move on. And so the I would say, I would 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:49.039 say this, I realized early on that it that I 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:51.840 wasn't doing something that I always wanted to do, or 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:53.960 that I that I wasn't going to want to do forever. 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:57.240 And with that, I realized, Okay, okay, well I want 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.520 to make sure I don't get on this like slippery slope. 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:01.480 I want to make sure that I don't wind up, 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:03.280 you know, just one more year, one more year, one 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:04.920 more year. And then suddenly I wake up and I'm 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:06.600 fifty five, and I haven't, you know, gone out and 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:08.600 started a business, which is what I always wanted to do. 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:14.040 I developed an overweening interest in personal finance throughout the 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:16.320 first you know a few years that I was on 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:18.320 the job and it and it took a while for 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:20.040 it to kind of percolate. You know, I read a 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.960 book called Your Money or Your Life, and that kind 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:26.000 of planted the seed for me where I was just like, oh, okay, 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:27.720 now that I think of it in terms of time, 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:30.520 then all of a sudden, it's like, okay, the answers 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:32.520 just drop right out. And so for me, I remember 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:36.520 being literally at the Goldman Gym, like working out, googling 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.440 like your Money or Your Life app and there was nothing, 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:42.120 and so I decided to That was kind of what 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:43.720 planted the seed for me that I should maybe try 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:45.560 and build some very cool so real quick. 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:49.160 Then what age were you when you started having those 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.240 internal conversations where you were like, Okay, I don't want 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:54.080 to do the do the one more year thing. Do 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:56.240 you remember about when that was? Like how far along 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:56.880 into your career? 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:57.480 I guess were you? 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.600 Yeah? I would say I first realized about two years 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:03.320 into my career. I remember grabbing a friend of mine 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:05.840 from college and saying, like, dude, if I'm still doing 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.320 this at thirty two, grab me by the caller and 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.080 make sure that I justify myself because I can see 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:14.840 where this movie's going. Yeah, but you know, there's always 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.640 there's always insecurity, scarcity kind of mindset that makes you go, well, 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:20.520 maybe do I have enough? Can I move on? You know, 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:22.040 one more year? One more year? Well? 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:23.960 Yeah, you also don't want to kind of toss away. 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:25.880 You've worked so hard for this for so long, and 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.160 you're like, I'm here. You don't want to be ungrateful, 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:33.240 And maybe that desire to kind of, I don't know, 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.800 continue down the path that you've set out for yourself 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.360 and not blaze a new trail. I think that can 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:40.480 be cause a lot of people to stay put to 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:42.920 And I guess I'm curious too when we're talking about 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:46.880 the book your money or your life, the main life 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.400 changing concept for a lot of people is thinking about 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:53.199 their money in terms of life hours, Like, Yeah, what 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.720 was that like for you reading that book? And how 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:58.640 did that specifically kind of change your trajectory and your 0:08:58.640 --> 0:08:59.360 thought process. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.120 I think the biggest thing was just simplicity. I'm a 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.600 stickler for simplicity. You know, there's just so much out there, 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.080 there's so much data, especially now that it's just like 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:11.240 you can be drowning in too much information, it's like, 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:15.040 you know, analysis paralysis type of thing. And for me, 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:16.839 what that book did was it kind of knocked things 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:19.960 into line in terms of realizing, look, you can really 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:23.880 distill everything down to one you know, kind of single 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.400 kernel of truth here. You know, here's how many years 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.680 you've got in the bank. And with that, it's just like, oh, okay, 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.160 all these all these numbers that often make people's eyes 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:34.760 glaze over, you know, net worth, expenses and stuff like that, 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.240 if you can distill it all down into one little 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:42.160 simple idea that actually has intuitive hooks. You know, people 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.840 can imagine what it's like to you know, relax for 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.200 seven years. Then if you've got seven years in the bank, 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.480 then that's what that says. And by the way, then 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.040 that factors in everything that it needs to factor in. 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:54.160 You know, if you're if your wealth goes up, great, 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.320 it's factored in. And if your expenses go down, awesome, 0:09:57.320 --> 0:09:59.400 that's also factored in. And so for me, it was 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:01.560 just the beautiful, full simplicity of not having to track 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.319 nineteen different things but being able to distill it all 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:04.840 down to one. 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.080 Yeah, So is that what you would tell folks like 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:09.880 I think there might be a lot of listeners tuning 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:11.560 in right now and they're thinking, Man, I would love 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:13.400 to quit my day job. I would love to maybe 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.920 take a more entrepreneurial path. Would you want them to 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.120 have a certain number of months or even years of 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:24.760 living expenses set aside? If I guess a what position 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:26.880 were you in? And then what do you think folks 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.120 should maybe have in the bank before they kind of 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:31.440 start going out on their own to pursue something that 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:32.959 is a little more life giving. 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:36.720 Yeah, it's it's totally situational. You know. The conventional wisdom 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:38.559 for you know, what do you want to have is 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:41.120 call it like a whatever, a six month emergency fund 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:43.000 or something. If you're going to do something entrepreneurial, it's 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:44.600 it's way higher than that. You know, you're not going 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:46.839 to get a business off the ground and fully running 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.280 in only six months, and so you know, you might 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:50.840 want to have a year or two at least set 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.880 aside that you can that you can, you know, really 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.560 get it going. But there's no there's no hard and 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.560 fast rule, and so much of it is due to 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:00.760 you know, if you're starting a business on the side 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.360 and you've got an income and that provides you more flexibility. 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.080 If you are a risk taker and you're willing to 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:09.720 eat Ramen for three years or whatever, then then great. 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:11.320 You know, Like for me, I had to kind of 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:14.320 oversolve because you know, I had two little kids. Now 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:16.320 I've got three, and we were going to move across 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:18.439 the country and start a new lifestyle. So I had 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:20.800 to build in some buffer. I felt really lucky because 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.480 you know, I started my business in twenty twenty, like 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.280 January of twenty twenty, and so I was planning on, 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.080 you know, working from home and living off savings for 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:31.800 a couple of years, and then all of a sudden, 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:33.480 you know, COVID and kind of a lot of people 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:35.520 had to do something pretty similar to that, you know, 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.480 work from home and in some cases live off of savings. 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:40.800 And so I was fortunate, but I'm I'm kind of 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.320 a risk averse guy by default orientation, and so I 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:45.439 felt like I kind of had to had to oversolve. 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:47.880 But different people, you know, different strokes were different folks. 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.040 Yeah, our understatement of the year, like, getting a startup 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:53.559 off the ground isn't easy, right, and so like you're 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:55.559 you're living that life, you're kind of in the middle 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:57.240 of it still, and it can take a lot of 0:11:57.280 --> 0:11:59.520 time too, right too, and especially when it when it's 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.640 kind of your fourth baby. Really you're like, oh, man, 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.400 like you, you have a vested interest on multiple fronts 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.480 for seeing this for seeing this thing succeed. So be 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:11.600 honest with us. Have you been able to strike the 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:13.640 balance you were looking for now that you're out on 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:15.040 your own, You're like, I quit this job because I 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.000 was working too many hours. But are you working too 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:19.400 many hours doing the thing that you love now or 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.160 have you been able to find a good balance. 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:26.560 There's it's a continuous process to try and find that balance. 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:29.000 You know, there's there's good parts of what I'm doing 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:30.839 now and there's bad parts of what I'm doing now. 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.480 When I think back to my time at Goldman, for example, 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.319 you know, Friday night, when I walked out of the office, poof, 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.200 I didn't think about work until Monday morning. And now 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.040 it's the exact opposite. You know, no matter what I'm doing, 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:44.839 there's always this background process running like, oh, how can 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.000 I tweak this, how can I make that better? How 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.239 can I you know, increase the value of this product, 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.360 et cetera. Because it's it's you know, like you said, 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:53.800 it's my baby. And so there's this double edged sword 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.840 because on the one hand, you know, it's like it's 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:59.400 harder for me to be, you know, at home and 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.120 present with my kids then it would be if I 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.360 had a job that I didn't care about, that's for sure. 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:06.920 But on the other hand, it's like they get to 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:11.440 witness a father who's in love with his work, whereas 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:13.920 if I was just kind of work a day, humdrum, 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:16.200 you know, waddling to the office and coming back a 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.880 little bit mad, then you know, that wouldn't be That 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:21.840 wouldn't be sending the right message to them about the 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.240 role that work is supposed to occupy in their life either. 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.000 And so it's a balance to be struck. I definitely 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.319 have not cracked that nut yet. And it's kind of 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:31.440 like raising a kid where it's just like even if 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.600 you even if you do figure out the perfect balance, 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:36.720 you're not necessarily it's not going to be an always 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.280 in forever thing. It's it's like two weeks from now, boom, 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.400 something happens and you've got to figure out a new one. 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:43.000 So it's it's a work in progress. 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:44.560 It's like a pendulum in a lot of ways. 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:48.920 Yeah, yeah, well, and then you've written about this as well, 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.520 but like the risk versus reward isn't quite There are 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:54.720 a lot of times when it comes to folks taking 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.800 the standard nine to five jobs. Yes, you kind of 0:13:57.840 --> 0:13:59.480 hints it at this, but like there's almost like an 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.440 obsession with safeness, like reducing a risk safety ism in 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.880 our country today. And you've kind of talked about how 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:09.319 you're kind of missing out on a lot that doesn't 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:11.880 necessarily have to come from entrepreneurship. But there is a 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.200 lot that you realize when you are starting your own business, 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:17.199 Like the highs are higher, maybe maybe the lows or 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.400 lower potentially as well, but you have the ability to 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:23.360 tap into something that gives you that truly gives you joy. 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.520 Is that something that you feel like you've seen as 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.160 opposed to folks who just are kind of going along 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.600 with a stock lifestyle and because of that, they're not 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:34.240 really questioning how it is that they're making money, and 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:37.280 they're also sometimes not questioning how they spend their money 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:37.640 as well. 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:41.280 Yes, I mean entrepreneurship is not for the faint of heart, 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:45.160 because for you know, it'll be six weeks of just 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.520 this is ridiculous. I got to get a real job. 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:49.920 You know, this is never going anywhere, followed by like 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.720 the best forty eight hours in company history, and so 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:56.520 it's like this you know, punctuated equilibrium of like you know, 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:58.560 you zoom out and look at how things have gone 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:00.840 over the last six to twelve months, Like, holy cow, 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:05.120 I've actually been doing this. It's working, but the lived experience, 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.400 week in week out is just exhausting. You know. It's 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:10.880 just this this constant string of it's it's kind of 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.520 like if you're whatever watching your investment accounts every day. 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:15.840 The way that we're wired as humans is that if 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:18.200 it's up fifty cents one day and down fifty cents 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:20.400 the next day, you come out feeling a little bit mad, 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:25.160 because like, bad's way more than goods psychologically speaking. But 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:27.080 when you zoom out and then you know, go back 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.080 and look at your at your brokerage account, you know 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.960 after six months or after six years, it's like, oh, wow, okay, good, 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:33.880 I made a good decision. 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:36.160 Yeah all right, so you brought up investing, So I'm 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.680 gonna go there now. We our friend Doc g He 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.800 talks about front loading the sacrifice, and it is, of 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.520 course true that a dollar invested when you're nineteen is 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:46.360 going to do more for you than a dollar invested 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:50.000 at age like forty nine. Right, So, and we've heard 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:53.680 more recently about something called consumption smoothing, where some economists 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:57.800 have said, hey, instead of investing early, maybe you kind 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:00.720 of you know, borrow a little more when you're younger, 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:03.880 don't invest quite as much, start investing in your forties. 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.280 How do you think about finding a happy medium though 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:10.440 in those early years when investing is important, But I 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:12.480 don't know, it's also possible to take it to the extreme. 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.600 Yeah, i'd say one, do as I say, not as 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.880 I do. I screwed this up big time when I 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.920 was when I was in my initial career because I 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:25.640 part of it was because I really wasn't enjoying my 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:27.440 job as much as I should. And so I had 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:31.120 this you know, if I'm unhappy at work, then I 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.280 thought that the cure for that was like, Okay, sprint 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:35.440 for the finish line and like get out of here 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.720 as soon as possible. And so what that's a recipe 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:40.600 for is like, Okay, you're unhappy at work, so yeah, 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:42.880 let's go ahead and make ourselves unhappy at home too. 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:46.320 And that's gonna somehow unhappy at work plus unhappy at home. 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:48.760 That just makes you unhappy. And so you definitely don't 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.240 want to be like sprinting for the finish line and 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.280 just like is scrimping and saving and you know, investing 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:57.360 every single little penny and not being willing to you know, 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:00.120 experience your life. But at the same time, I I 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:03.760 kind of get queasy when I when I hear people advocating, 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.920 you know, that kind of economist dictum of consumptions moving 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.040 to like, oh, yeah, borrow, to borrow to the hilt, 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:12.640 you know, like when you're twenty two, and then don't worry, 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:13.800 it'll all work out when you're. 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:15.679 Yeah, you're always going to make more and you'll be 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:17.760 able to overcome the borrowing that you did when you 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:18.480 were younger. 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:20.280 Right, And so I would say, I would say, you know, 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:22.840 live within your means first and foremost. You know, you 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:24.960 want the bank account to be going up, not down, 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.320 and so live within your means. And that means different 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.199 things for different people. But then I think it's just 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.120 as important, especially for people who are wired like I am, 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:36.479 which is, you know, like a kind of caveman style 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:38.520 like saving spending bad. 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.200 Type when people ask me what's been like, I always say, caveman, that's. 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:43.560 Exactly in the old Gico commercial. 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.800 Yeah, just like that right exactly it bingo, And so 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:48.919