1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: and today we're talking about why time is greater than 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: money with Ben Miller. Actually, time it's easily our most 4 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: precious resource, but it's not often that we take the 5 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,639 Speaker 1: time to figure out how it is that we're going 6 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: to spend our minutes and our hours, which then inevitably 7 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: turn into weeks and years. And then if you completely 8 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: fail to do this like that is when you end 9 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: up as the proverbial careerist, right where you're looking back 10 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: at the wasted decades wishing that you would have done 11 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: something differently. And luckily, our guest today, Ben Miller, he 12 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: actually did shake things up. He traded a position on 13 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: Wall Street with golden sacks for a fulfilling. 14 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: Life out there in Colorado. 15 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 3: He chose meaning over money, and he's actually on a 16 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 3: quest to help others to discover what a fulfilling life 17 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 3: is for them with the software that he's developed, Chronify. 18 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 3: So we're gonna talk about that, and you know, I'm 19 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 3: excited for what I think will be a wide ranging 20 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 3: conversation all about personal finances, but specifically with time at 21 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 3: the center of pretty much everything that we talk about today. So, 22 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 3: Ben Miller, thank you so much for joining us today 23 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 3: on the podcast. 24 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,119 Speaker 4: Thanks a lot for having me. I'm excited to be. 25 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: Here, Ben, We're excited for this combo and Matt and 26 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: I we you know, you know, we like craft beer 27 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: and everyone knows that at this point, no secret. But 28 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: we spend I think the current beer is just one 29 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: single can of beer and it costs like seven dollars 30 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: and fifty cents, which a lot of people would say, 31 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: that's that's crazy. I need a twelve is at the 32 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: accurate price tag right there? I think so? Yeah, it 33 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: liters has seven dollars and twenty nine cents. It's not cheap. 34 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: That's ridiculous, right, So we spend too much, some would 35 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: say on craft beer, but we're also being intentional. We're 36 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: saving investing for the future while we spend exordinantly on 37 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: something that we care about. I'm curious, what's that for you? 38 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: What's your craft beer equivalent? 39 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 4: Hmm? My craft beer equivalent, I'd say, would definitely have 40 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 4: to be strategy board games. So I'm outing myself is 41 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 4: a huge door here. But those sometimes can go for 42 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 4: like a one hundred bucks a pop, but well worth it. 43 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 4: Hours of family fun. 44 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: Okay, which game? 45 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: Because I think when I share this love, Yes, we 46 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: also are nerdy, our lovers of nerdy board games. But 47 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: when we go on our beach vacation every night, every 48 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: night we're there, we're playing a nerdy board game game. 49 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: Carcassone Sellers of Catan, We're playing Puerto Rico acchoir a choir. 50 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 4: So what game you guys know, the whole gamut? Then 51 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 4: this is normally people's eyes glaze over when. 52 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they're like, wait, are you talking about Monopoly? 53 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 3: Like yeah, no, no, we're not like leave that for the 54 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 3: kids like in the nineties risks for children. 55 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: We're talking about the big ones. 56 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 4: Are you talking about Clue? 57 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 3: No? Okay, so what game are you dropping one hundred 58 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 3: one hundred plus dollars on especially level? 59 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like kickst harder stuff. So all these like 60 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 4: you know, big kind of space opera sort of games 61 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 4: or whatever, and so it'll be you know, sometimes one 62 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 4: or two hundred bucks and then you got to wait 63 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 4: a couple of years for them to actually make it. 64 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 4: But that's you know, my my wife and I are 65 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 4: idea of a great Saturday night is like sitting down 66 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 4: over the board game table and trying to prove to 67 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 4: each other who's smarter. 68 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 3: So that's kind of who is the most cutthroat. 69 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: She lets you win sometimes, right, Yeah. 70 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 4: Once, It's funny you mentioned Carcassone, Like we almost lost 71 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 4: our relationship over that because I just we were. 72 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 3: Playing Settlers that the folks are going after each other's 73 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 3: throats for. 74 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 4: We were we were like trading games, you know, kind 75 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 4: of evenly matched, and then she started just whipping me 76 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 4: on the regular, and I was like, what is going on? 77 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 4: And then I discovered she had the app on her 78 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 4: phone and so she was just getting all kinds of extracurriculum. 79 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 3: She was honing, honing her skills. Yes, dude, I love it. Okay, 80 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 3: So final question relatable games. What what game are you 81 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: currently playing a whole lot or with friends? 82 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd say one of our recent favorites has been 83 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 4: a game called ark Nova. It's like a zoo building game. 84 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: Of all, oh, I'm running down right now. 85 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, you kind of whatever building closures and put animals 86 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 4: in them, and I love it. Got to catch them 87 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 4: all type. 88 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 3: So nerdy, so dorky, but I love it. The last 89 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 3: one we cracked Open, uh for the first time was wingspan, 90 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 3: which yes, yeah, were one of the prettiest, prettiest, and 91 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 3: you get to learn because you're learning about these actual 92 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 3: species of birds and the eggs and how much they 93 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 3: typically lay and where they nest, and I mean it's 94 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 3: it's yeah, that's right, Okay, before we completely lose all 95 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 3: of our listeners and we gotta start talking about money 96 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 3: and for for you personally, I mean, like you said 97 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 3: that you were pursuing what you would call conventional. 98 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: Success for most of your life, Like you had good. 99 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 3: Grades, the right school, big time job, but you found 100 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 3: that it wasn't fulfilling. 101 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: So what did you find was missing? 102 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: And specifically, like what what caused you to have like 103 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 3: a come to Jesus moment? 104 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a it's a good question. I first of all, 105 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 4: I felt very strange and like almost ungrateful because I 106 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 4: was super, super lucky to have that position, you know, 107 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 4: to be in that role. It was kind of like 108 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 4: a pinch me sort of job that I felt like 109 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 4: a lot of people would kill for. And so I 110 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 4: was I was wondering what's wrong with me? Like why 111 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 4: can't I appreciate this? But what really kind of made 112 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 4: it come to a head. Was you know, I was 113 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 4: watching people, you know, either either retire or you know, 114 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 4: move on. And so I watched one guy in particular 115 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 4: retire at like forty five, and he was, you know, minted, 116 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 4: had a bunch of money and all that kind of stuff, 117 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 4: and so most people look at him and go, man, 118 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 4: nice job, you know, you win the game. And I 119 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 4: was looking at him and going like, geez, I hope 120 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 4: that's not me. I hope by the time I'm forty five, 121 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 4: you know, I've done more than just this. And that 122 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 4: was kind of a shot across the bow for me 123 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 4: where I knew, you know, I'd known for a while 124 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 4: that it wasn't what I wanted to do with my 125 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 4: with my entire life, but that that really kind of, 126 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 4: you know, set thing in motion where I realized, like, Okay, 127 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 4: how do I not become this? You know, how do 128 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 4: I not become this person who's only done this? How 129 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 4: do I how do I make something and help people 130 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 4: by the time I get there. 131 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: M So, your desire to go out there, strike it 132 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: on your own, start your own business, start chronify? Was 133 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: that more because you didn't think your Wall Street job 134 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: was doing good in the world and you wanted to 135 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: do good in the world, or was it more because 136 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: you wanted more control over your time? 137 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 4: Like? 138 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: Was it? Was it both? 139 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 4: How? Yeah? 140 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: What was the thought process there? 141 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, you're pointing out a little bit of circularity here. 142 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 4: I mean, because the very the very product that I'm 143 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 4: out there, you know, out there trying to trying to 144 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 4: put into the world now, is that is based on 145 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 4: the precursor to or it's based on the product that 146 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 4: I used to convince myself that it was time to 147 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 4: move on. And so the I would say, I would 148 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 4: say this, I realized early on that it that I 149 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 4: wasn't doing something that I always wanted to do, or 150 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 4: that I that I wasn't going to want to do forever. 151 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 4: And with that, I realized, Okay, okay, well I want 152 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 4: to make sure I don't get on this like slippery slope. 153 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 4: I want to make sure that I don't wind up, 154 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 4: you know, just one more year, one more year, one 155 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 4: more year. And then suddenly I wake up and I'm 156 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 4: fifty five, and I haven't, you know, gone out and 157 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 4: started a business, which is what I always wanted to do. 158 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 4: I developed an overweening interest in personal finance throughout the 159 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 4: first you know a few years that I was on 160 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 4: the job and it and it took a while for 161 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 4: it to kind of percolate. You know, I read a 162 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 4: book called Your Money or Your Life, and that kind 163 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 4: of planted the seed for me where I was just like, oh, okay, 164 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 4: now that I think of it in terms of time, 165 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 4: then all of a sudden, it's like, okay, the answers 166 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 4: just drop right out. And so for me, I remember 167 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 4: being literally at the Goldman Gym, like working out, googling 168 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 4: like your Money or Your Life app and there was nothing, 169 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 4: and so I decided to That was kind of what 170 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 4: planted the seed for me that I should maybe try 171 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 4: and build some very cool so real quick. 172 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 3: Then what age were you when you started having those 173 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 3: internal conversations where you were like, Okay, I don't want 174 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 3: to do the do the one more year thing. Do 175 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 3: you remember about when that was? Like how far along 176 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 3: into your career? 177 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: I guess were you? 178 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 4: Yeah? I would say I first realized about two years 179 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 4: into my career. I remember grabbing a friend of mine 180 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 4: from college and saying, like, dude, if I'm still doing 181 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 4: this at thirty two, grab me by the caller and 182 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 4: make sure that I justify myself because I can see 183 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 4: where this movie's going. Yeah, but you know, there's always 184 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 4: there's always insecurity, scarcity kind of mindset that makes you go, well, 185 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 4: maybe do I have enough? Can I move on? You know, 186 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 4: one more year? One more year? Well? 187 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, you also don't want to kind of toss away. 188 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: You've worked so hard for this for so long, and 189 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: you're like, I'm here. You don't want to be ungrateful, 190 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: And maybe that desire to kind of, I don't know, 191 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: continue down the path that you've set out for yourself 192 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: and not blaze a new trail. I think that can 193 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: be cause a lot of people to stay put to 194 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: And I guess I'm curious too when we're talking about 195 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: the book your money or your life, the main life 196 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: changing concept for a lot of people is thinking about 197 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 1: their money in terms of life hours, Like, Yeah, what 198 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: was that like for you reading that book? And how 199 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: did that specifically kind of change your trajectory and your 200 00:08:58,640 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: thought process. 201 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 4: I think the biggest thing was just simplicity. I'm a 202 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 4: stickler for simplicity. You know, there's just so much out there, 203 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 4: there's so much data, especially now that it's just like 204 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 4: you can be drowning in too much information, it's like, 205 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 4: you know, analysis paralysis type of thing. And for me, 206 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 4: what that book did was it kind of knocked things 207 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 4: into line in terms of realizing, look, you can really 208 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 4: distill everything down to one you know, kind of single 209 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 4: kernel of truth here. You know, here's how many years 210 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 4: you've got in the bank. And with that, it's just like, oh, okay, 211 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 4: all these all these numbers that often make people's eyes 212 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 4: glaze over, you know, net worth, expenses and stuff like that, 213 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 4: if you can distill it all down into one little 214 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 4: simple idea that actually has intuitive hooks. You know, people 215 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 4: can imagine what it's like to you know, relax for 216 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 4: seven years. Then if you've got seven years in the bank, 217 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 4: then that's what that says. And by the way, then 218 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 4: that factors in everything that it needs to factor in. 219 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 4: You know, if you're if your wealth goes up, great, 220 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 4: it's factored in. And if your expenses go down, awesome, 221 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 4: that's also factored in. And so for me, it was 222 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 4: just the beautiful, full simplicity of not having to track 223 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 4: nineteen different things but being able to distill it all 224 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 4: down to one. 225 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, So is that what you would tell folks like 226 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 3: I think there might be a lot of listeners tuning 227 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 3: in right now and they're thinking, Man, I would love 228 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 3: to quit my day job. I would love to maybe 229 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 3: take a more entrepreneurial path. Would you want them to 230 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 3: have a certain number of months or even years of 231 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 3: living expenses set aside? If I guess a what position 232 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: were you in? And then what do you think folks 233 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 3: should maybe have in the bank before they kind of 234 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 3: start going out on their own to pursue something that 235 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 3: is a little more life giving. 236 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's totally situational. You know. The conventional wisdom 237 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 4: for you know, what do you want to have is 238 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 4: call it like a whatever, a six month emergency fund 239 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 4: or something. If you're going to do something entrepreneurial, it's 240 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 4: it's way higher than that. You know, you're not going 241 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 4: to get a business off the ground and fully running 242 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 4: in only six months, and so you know, you might 243 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 4: want to have a year or two at least set 244 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 4: aside that you can that you can, you know, really 245 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 4: get it going. But there's no there's no hard and 246 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 4: fast rule, and so much of it is due to 247 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 4: you know, if you're starting a business on the side 248 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 4: and you've got an income and that provides you more flexibility. 249 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 4: If you are a risk taker and you're willing to 250 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 4: eat Ramen for three years or whatever, then then great. 251 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 4: You know, Like for me, I had to kind of 252 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 4: oversolve because you know, I had two little kids. Now 253 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 4: I've got three, and we were going to move across 254 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 4: the country and start a new lifestyle. So I had 255 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 4: to build in some buffer. I felt really lucky because 256 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 4: you know, I started my business in twenty twenty, like 257 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 4: January of twenty twenty, and so I was planning on, 258 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 4: you know, working from home and living off savings for 259 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 4: a couple of years, and then all of a sudden, 260 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 4: you know, COVID and kind of a lot of people 261 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 4: had to do something pretty similar to that, you know, 262 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 4: work from home and in some cases live off of savings. 263 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 4: And so I was fortunate, but I'm I'm kind of 264 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 4: a risk averse guy by default orientation, and so I 265 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 4: felt like I kind of had to had to oversolve. 266 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 4: But different people, you know, different strokes were different folks. 267 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, our understatement of the year, like, getting a startup 268 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: off the ground isn't easy, right, and so like you're 269 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 1: you're living that life, you're kind of in the middle 270 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: of it still, and it can take a lot of 271 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: time too, right too, and especially when it when it's 272 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: kind of your fourth baby. Really you're like, oh, man, 273 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: like you, you have a vested interest on multiple fronts 274 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: for seeing this for seeing this thing succeed. So be 275 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: honest with us. Have you been able to strike the 276 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: balance you were looking for now that you're out on 277 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: your own, You're like, I quit this job because I 278 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: was working too many hours. But are you working too 279 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: many hours doing the thing that you love now or 280 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: have you been able to find a good balance. 281 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 4: There's it's a continuous process to try and find that balance. 282 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 4: You know, there's there's good parts of what I'm doing 283 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,839 Speaker 4: now and there's bad parts of what I'm doing now. 284 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 4: When I think back to my time at Goldman, for example, 285 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 4: you know, Friday night, when I walked out of the office, poof, 286 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 4: I didn't think about work until Monday morning. And now 287 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 4: it's the exact opposite. You know, no matter what I'm doing, 288 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 4: there's always this background process running like, oh, how can 289 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 4: I tweak this, how can I make that better? How 290 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,239 Speaker 4: can I you know, increase the value of this product, 291 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 4: et cetera. Because it's it's you know, like you said, 292 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 4: it's my baby. And so there's this double edged sword 293 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 4: because on the one hand, you know, it's like it's 294 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 4: harder for me to be, you know, at home and 295 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 4: present with my kids then it would be if I 296 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 4: had a job that I didn't care about, that's for sure. 297 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 4: But on the other hand, it's like they get to 298 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 4: witness a father who's in love with his work, whereas 299 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 4: if I was just kind of work a day, humdrum, 300 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 4: you know, waddling to the office and coming back a 301 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 4: little bit mad, then you know, that wouldn't be That 302 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 4: wouldn't be sending the right message to them about the 303 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 4: role that work is supposed to occupy in their life either. 304 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 4: And so it's a balance to be struck. I definitely 305 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 4: have not cracked that nut yet. And it's kind of 306 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 4: like raising a kid where it's just like even if 307 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 4: you even if you do figure out the perfect balance, 308 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 4: you're not necessarily it's not going to be an always 309 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 4: in forever thing. It's it's like two weeks from now, boom, 310 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 4: something happens and you've got to figure out a new one. 311 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 4: So it's it's a work in progress. 312 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: It's like a pendulum in a lot of ways. 313 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well, and then you've written about this as well, 314 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 3: but like the risk versus reward isn't quite There are 315 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 3: a lot of times when it comes to folks taking 316 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 3: the standard nine to five jobs. Yes, you kind of 317 00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 3: hints it at this, but like there's almost like an 318 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 3: obsession with safeness, like reducing a risk safety ism in 319 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 3: our country today. And you've kind of talked about how 320 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 3: you're kind of missing out on a lot that doesn't 321 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 3: necessarily have to come from entrepreneurship. But there is a 322 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 3: lot that you realize when you are starting your own business, 323 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 3: Like the highs are higher, maybe maybe the lows or 324 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 3: lower potentially as well, but you have the ability to 325 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 3: tap into something that gives you that truly gives you joy. 326 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 3: Is that something that you feel like you've seen as 327 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 3: opposed to folks who just are kind of going along 328 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 3: with a stock lifestyle and because of that, they're not 329 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 3: really questioning how it is that they're making money, and 330 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 3: they're also sometimes not questioning how they spend their money 331 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 3: as well. 332 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 4: Yes, I mean entrepreneurship is not for the faint of heart, 333 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 4: because for you know, it'll be six weeks of just 334 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 4: this is ridiculous. I got to get a real job. 335 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 4: You know, this is never going anywhere, followed by like 336 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 4: the best forty eight hours in company history, and so 337 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 4: it's like this you know, punctuated equilibrium of like you know, 338 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 4: you zoom out and look at how things have gone 339 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 4: over the last six to twelve months, Like, holy cow, 340 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 4: I've actually been doing this. It's working, but the lived experience, 341 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 4: week in week out is just exhausting. You know. It's 342 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 4: just this this constant string of it's it's kind of 343 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 4: like if you're whatever watching your investment accounts every day. 344 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 4: The way that we're wired as humans is that if 345 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 4: it's up fifty cents one day and down fifty cents 346 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 4: the next day, you come out feeling a little bit mad, 347 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 4: because like, bad's way more than goods psychologically speaking. But 348 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 4: when you zoom out and then you know, go back 349 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 4: and look at your at your brokerage account, you know 350 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 4: after six months or after six years, it's like, oh, wow, okay, good, 351 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 4: I made a good decision. 352 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: Yeah all right, so you brought up investing, So I'm 353 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: gonna go there now. We our friend Doc g He 354 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: talks about front loading the sacrifice, and it is, of 355 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: course true that a dollar invested when you're nineteen is 356 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: going to do more for you than a dollar invested 357 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: at age like forty nine. Right, So, and we've heard 358 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: more recently about something called consumption smoothing, where some economists 359 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: have said, hey, instead of investing early, maybe you kind 360 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: of you know, borrow a little more when you're younger, 361 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: don't invest quite as much, start investing in your forties. 362 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: How do you think about finding a happy medium though 363 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: in those early years when investing is important, But I 364 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: don't know, it's also possible to take it to the extreme. 365 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, i'd say one, do as I say, not as 366 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 4: I do. I screwed this up big time when I 367 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 4: was when I was in my initial career because I 368 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 4: part of it was because I really wasn't enjoying my 369 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 4: job as much as I should. And so I had 370 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 4: this you know, if I'm unhappy at work, then I 371 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 4: thought that the cure for that was like, Okay, sprint 372 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 4: for the finish line and like get out of here 373 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 4: as soon as possible. And so what that's a recipe 374 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 4: for is like, Okay, you're unhappy at work, so yeah, 375 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 4: let's go ahead and make ourselves unhappy at home too. 376 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 4: And that's gonna somehow unhappy at work plus unhappy at home. 377 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 4: That just makes you unhappy. And so you definitely don't 378 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 4: want to be like sprinting for the finish line and 379 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 4: just like is scrimping and saving and you know, investing 380 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 4: every single little penny and not being willing to you know, 381 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 4: experience your life. But at the same time, I I 382 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 4: kind of get queasy when I when I hear people advocating, 383 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 4: you know, that kind of economist dictum of consumptions moving 384 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 4: to like, oh, yeah, borrow, to borrow to the hilt, 385 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 4: you know, like when you're twenty two, and then don't worry, 386 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 4: it'll all work out when you're. 387 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're always going to make more and you'll be 388 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: able to overcome the borrowing that you did when you 389 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: were younger. 390 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 4: Right, And so I would say, I would say, you know, 391 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 4: live within your means first and foremost. You know, you 392 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 4: want the bank account to be going up, not down, 393 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 4: and so live within your means. And that means different 394 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 4: things for different people. But then I think it's just 395 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 4: as important, especially for people who are wired like I am, 396 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,479 Speaker 4: which is, you know, like a kind of caveman style 397 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 4: like saving spending bad. 398 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: Type when people ask me what's been like, I always say, caveman, that's. 399 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 2: Exactly in the old Gico commercial. 400 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, just like that right exactly it bingo, And so 401 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 4: that that's me. And so for people who are wired 402 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 4: like that, I think oftentimes you need some encouragement to 403 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 4: take some ownership of your spending it and do that 404 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 4: craft beer equivalent type of thing. Because honestly, for me, 405 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 4: when I kind of what made the lights come on 406 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 4: was I was realizing myself, like, dude, okay, you're afraid 407 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 4: to bust spend eighty dollars on this board game? What 408 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 4: are you? What are you teaching yourself? If you if 409 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 4: you like, if you defer this purchase, if you just 410 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 4: like don't do this thing that's going to make you happy, Well, one, 411 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 4: you're not going to be happy now because you're not 412 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 4: gonna be able to, like, you know, play this game 413 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 4: with your wife or whatever. And two, you're training yourself 414 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 4: to think that, you know, happiness is cheaper than it 415 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 4: is for you. The reality is if if happiness for 416 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 4: you guys is like craft beer every day, then you 417 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 4: don't want to lie to yourself about what that happiness costs. 418 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 4: You want to like pull the first Fruits of retirement 419 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 4: forward and experience them every day until retirement, in addition 420 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 4: to when you're you know, sipping them on the beach 421 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 4: or whatever. 422 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 3: It's just the head off the top of the beer. 423 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 3: We're not even pulling the full first foes forward, but 424 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 3: it's just it's just a little bit, just a little 425 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 3: bit of the taste. But what you're talking about here, 426 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 3: you know, I guess up until now, we've we've been 427 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 3: talking about earning money in career and finding fulfillment there. 428 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 3: But what a lot of what you're talking about here 429 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 3: has to do with how how it is that you 430 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 3: spend your money. And so we're actually going to spend 431 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 3: a lot more of our conversation with you talking about 432 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 3: just that. 433 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: We will get to more on. 434 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 3: Time and money with Ben Miller right after the break. 435 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: All right, let's keep talking about time and money such 436 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 1: an important relationship. And some people I might think, Matt, 437 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: that you and I think that money is the most 438 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: important thing. Heck, we've been doing a podcast about money 439 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: for almost going on six years now. We talk about 440 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: it three times a week, right, and yes, money is 441 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: clearly an important thing, but we always talk about it 442 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: as a tool, right, it's a tool that allows us 443 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: to pursue other things in our lives, some of which 444 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: are more important. And so we're talking with Ben Miller 445 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: about why time is actually more important with money than money, 446 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: and so, Ben, why is this connection between time and money? 447 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: Why is it so important for us to make that connection? 448 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: And for instance, like a recurring one hundred dollars a 449 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: monthly expense, it might make us feel a certain way, 450 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: but then thinking about it in terms of how many 451 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: hours of our life that spending is cost us, that 452 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: it kind of hits us differently, doesn't it? 453 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 4: Absolutely? And I think I think ultimately all this stuff 454 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 4: hinges around the concept of enough. You know, that's like 455 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 4: a really tricky word when it comes to finance, and 456 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 4: so if you don't have a good framework, you're just 457 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 4: not able to really understand what enough even means. And 458 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 4: so ultimately what enough means is going to be different 459 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 4: for different people. That's going to be based, you know, 460 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 4: primarily upon their spending, and then you know they're going 461 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 4: to have to apply some kind of a multiple of Okay, 462 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,199 Speaker 4: here's how many years I think I'm going to live 463 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 4: during retirement or whatever it may be. But we don't 464 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 4: want to get complicated here. The idea here is that 465 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 4: like when you think about spending your money, you want 466 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 4: to make sure that it's a good deal. You don't 467 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 4: want to make sure you're not like frittering it away 468 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 4: on things that you don't actually care about. But likewise, 469 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 4: you don't want to make the other type of error either. 470 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 4: You don't want to refuse to spend money on things 471 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 4: that are actually good for you. So use that, you know, 472 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 4: one hundred dollars recurring expense, like I think about, for example, 473 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 4: date night with my wife. And so so I'm a 474 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 4: guy who like feels a little bit queasy every time 475 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 4: a dollar leaves his wallet. And so normally when I, like, 476 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 4: you know, pay for something, when I'm signing the check, 477 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 4: I'm just like kind of shaking my head, you know, 478 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 4: hopefully inside my head and not actually the people that 479 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 4: I'm at dinner with, but like I'm thinking, like, oh, gosh, Ben, 480 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 4: you really screwed this one up. Like there's more money leaving, 481 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 4: Like the money's going the wrong way. 482 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:22,479 Speaker 1: Shouldn't have got the appetizer. 483 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 4: Right exactly exactly. And so for me, that's the way 484 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 4: that I'm wired. But when I understand things in terms 485 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 4: of time. Then all of a sudden, I can have 486 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 4: ownership and permission because for example, that that you know, 487 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 4: one hundred dollars expense, I might look at that, run 488 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 4: the numbers and go like, okay, that is delaying my 489 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 4: retirement by three months. Just let's just say, then if 490 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 4: I look at that you know, date night with my 491 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 4: wife and go okay, this is delaying my retirement by 492 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 4: three months, then I go, okay, is that scary to me? Well, one, 493 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 4: I love my job and so like you know, delaying 494 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 4: my retirement is not really all that scary. And two, 495 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 4: I'm investing in the relationship that's the bedrock of my family, 496 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 4: and so if anything, I'll do it twice as much, 497 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 4: like this is a great deal for me. So now 498 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 4: when I sign that check, instead of just feeling like, 499 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 4: uh wrong, money's going the wrong way, I feel like, Okay, good, 500 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 4: this is approved, this is you know, kind of been 501 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 4: blessed by the system, and it's something that I that 502 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 4: I feel good about rather than bad about. 503 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, and kind of going back to what you're saying 504 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 3: about knowing what it is to have enough and as 505 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 3: far as delaying your retirement by a certain number of 506 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 3: months or even years, I guess for maybe a giant purchase. 507 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 3: But you write about too, how it's not even about 508 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 3: reaching some sort of golden date, right like and within 509 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 3: the fire community, it's like what's your number yea, and 510 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 3: it's you talk about how it's not often about that 511 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 3: and on how to money, Like when we talk about it, 512 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 3: we call it the basically how financial independence exists as 513 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 3: a spectrum, but you talk about it within the sort 514 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 3: of context of being able to curate problems? Can you 515 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 3: talk about some of the other benefits how even if 516 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 3: you're not necessarily focused on a hard retirement date sort 517 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 3: of like like you're not because you love the work 518 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 3: that you do, but it does provide some other benefits. 519 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,719 Speaker 4: I love that. I mean, curating problems is a concept 520 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 4: that's near and dear to my heart. Like I think 521 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 4: that one of the best things about you know, quote 522 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 4: unquote financial independence. And I don't want to creep people out, like, 523 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 4: you know, there's there's a lot of like there's a 524 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 4: lot of baggage that comes with this term of financial independence. 525 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 4: So what I'm talking about when I say that is 526 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 4: like basically having enough money to choose how you spend 527 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 4: your time, just to just to put it in broad strokes. 528 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 4: And so one of the best parts about that state 529 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 4: of the world is being able to determine, you know, 530 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 4: just based on your soul discretion, what's worth your time 531 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 4: and what's not worth your time. And so it's not 532 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 4: like this abject refusal to ever earn a dollar again, 533 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 4: is just the state of the world where you can determine, like, 534 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 4: this is a problem that I really want to spend 535 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 4: some time on, This is something that animates me and 536 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 4: makes me feel good, versus this is something that I 537 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 4: wish somebody else would do, you know, because that's that's 538 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 4: this kind of illusion people think that like work is 539 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 4: the enemy. And you know, I can tell by the 540 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 4: you know, the product that you guys create and how 541 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,239 Speaker 4: much joy that it's obvious that you take in creating it, 542 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 4: that this is not something that it's like, oh yeah, 543 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 4: if you'd you know, ten million dollars dropped out of 544 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 4: the sky tomorrow. It's not like Joel and Matt would 545 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 4: be like peace, you guys are we're out last episode, 546 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 4: it's coming out todays out forever exactly like you you 547 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 4: would probably kind of keep on going, you know, maybe 548 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 4: at a reduced pace or something. I don't know, but 549 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 4: like you'd you know, if you're creating something that you 550 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 4: actually like seeing in the world, then it doesn't have 551 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 4: to be all about money. So I hope that answers 552 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 4: your question. 553 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely talk to us about mindset. And I 554 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: don't want to get super fre frew here or anything 555 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: like that, but like it's it's true that we're humans. 556 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: We can't necessarily change how we think overnight, and even 557 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: if we did, right, it wouldn't make our our paycheck 558 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: fatter immediately. It doesn't solve everything, but our mindset plays 559 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: a role in the kind of progress that we make. 560 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: So so how do you think about the scarcity mindset 561 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: and how it can it can maybe stemy our journey 562 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: towards financial freedom, right, like if we're if we're too 563 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: focused on that, like, oh man, my dollars is gonna 564 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: run out, like you can almost create uh, like mental problems. 565 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: Are you ever on our path actually free? 566 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 4: Right? Yeah, exactly, And I think that's it's beautiful because 567 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 4: you're pointing at the fact that there's a ditch on 568 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 4: both sides of the road. You clearly don't want to 569 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 4: be like setting yourself up for a cat food retirement, 570 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 4: you know, just like completely blowing all your money on 571 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 4: stuff you don't care about, but likewise you don't want to, 572 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 4: you know, just wind up that guy who's got seven 573 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 4: million dollars in the bank and was you know, was 574 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 4: not spending any of it and and wasn't able to 575 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 4: enjoy any of it because like people, people missed that 576 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 4: second leg of the swap, that second leg of the transaction. 577 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 4: You know, if you're good about money, then you're building 578 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 4: up your bank accounts, you're investing, you're doing all that 579 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 4: type of stuff. But like savings are always in everywhere 580 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,360 Speaker 4: just delayed consumption. Like that's all you're doing when you're 581 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 4: saving money is your deferring it to some future date. 582 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 4: And so that scarcity mindset type of thing. People people 583 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 4: kind of get lulled into this this you know, false 584 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 4: sense of things when they think that, you know, budgeting 585 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 4: is like a symptom of a scarcity mindset or something 586 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 4: like that. It's not you're you're by by budgeting or 587 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 4: by you know, saving money or by you know, considering 588 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 4: the future. I think it's actually evidence of an abundance 589 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 4: mindset because you're, you know, you're admitting to yourself that 590 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 4: there is a future worth saving for. And so I 591 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 4: think I think it's important for people to strike that 592 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 4: balance the right way, not spend too little, not spend 593 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 4: too much, you know, kind of try and find their 594 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 4: own goldilock zone of being able to you know, spend 595 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 4: in a way that is aligned with their goals is 596 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 4: going to get them where they want to be eventually, 597 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 4: but be able to enjoy, be enjoy think, be able 598 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 4: to enjoy their lives along. The way I did things backwards, 599 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 4: I was like financial independence. This was my mentality back 600 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 4: in the day. Was like, okay, financial independence asap and 601 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 4: then happiness eventually. And that was for me completely backwards. 602 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 4: You know, I wound up having to get off that 603 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 4: train and realizing that like, Okay, this is not sustainable, 604 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 4: Like I'm gonna burn myself out before I get to 605 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 4: you know, fire or whatever it is. So I need 606 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 4: to take a more measured path, you know, build a 607 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 4: machine that's actually gonna be able to sustain itself all 608 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 4: the way to conclusion. Yeah. 609 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 1: Man, I think some of the saddest things to me 610 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: when I read some posts in the fire reddit forums 611 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: and stuff of people who win. 612 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 4: Don't spend too much time there. 613 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right, No I don't. 614 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 2: But I'll see a case the cautionary tale. 615 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll see a cautionary tale of somebody who who says, listen, 616 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: I bought into this hook line at Sinkery, and I 617 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 1: missed a bunch of important time. I didn't go to 618 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: the family events that because I was too scared to 619 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: buy a plane ticket. My girlfriend dump me. That's the story, 620 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: because I mean there's all of these kinds of stories 621 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: out there that You're right, there's a ditch on both sides. 622 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: And so that is like what we're always talking about 623 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: here on the show is the balanced middle where yeah, 624 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: have a have a high savings rate, but don't forsake 625 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: the important stuff in the meantime on the road every day, 626 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: every minute, is it is worth saving? And if we're 627 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: if we're so heavily focused on the future, and I 628 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: think Matt and Now we've probably been there at different 629 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: times too, maybe not to as much of an extreme 630 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: as some of these fire adherents, but you're missing out 631 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: on a lot of the good and awesome things that 632 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: you can enjoy now too. 633 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 634 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 3: Okay, So what you talk about is how not only 635 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 3: do we need to own our saving and investing, but 636 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 3: we also need to own our spending right, And that's 637 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 3: just the language you give to being intentional with your spending, 638 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 3: because oftentimes folks are only focused on that acquiring side 639 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 3: of the equation as opposed to the spending side of it. 640 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 3: And so, do you have any thoughts or any advice 641 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 3: for folks on how it is that they can transition 642 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 3: to spending more money? Right as folks are starting to 643 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 3: make that switch, you do have to be a little 644 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 3: more intentional with how it is that you're spending money. 645 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 3: Hopefull you are, there are small ways that you are 646 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 3: spending even when you are young and you feel broke, 647 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 3: but there are these small, tiny little splurges. But it's yeah, 648 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 3: it exists on a spectrum. And as folks are achieving 649 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 3: varying degrees of financial freedom, how do you encourage folks 650 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 3: to think about spending more money than they're used to? 651 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 4: I mean, Step one is knowing what you value. Step 652 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 4: one is understanding you know, for you as an individual, 653 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 4: what are your priorities? What is it that you're actually 654 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 4: all about? You know? And so if that's time with 655 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,959 Speaker 4: your family or if that is you know, building some 656 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 4: building towards some fulfilling mission in the world, whatever it is. 657 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 4: If you're spending money along those lines, then there's a 658 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 4: good chance that there's a fair amount of alignment. You know, 659 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 4: when I look at my habits, when I look at 660 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 4: the types of things that I'm spending my money on, 661 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 4: it's it's again, it's a two edged sword, because I'm 662 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 4: trying to simultaneously identify things the places that I can 663 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 4: trim the fat, so to speak, places that I go, oh, 664 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 4: I didn't realize I'm spending so much money there. Okay, 665 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 4: then I should probably tone that down, you know, let's 666 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 4: be more intentional on that its own. But I'm also 667 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 4: looking for places that I can double down. I'm looking 668 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 4: for places that I can go, Okay, this looks like 669 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 4: an unusually good deal, you know, this whatever date night 670 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 4: with my wife or a gym membership or or whatever 671 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 4: it may be. These positive habits, how can I lean 672 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 4: into that, and and how can I find other things 673 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 4: like that that are aligned with my priorities and things 674 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 4: that I really want to to be more about. Because 675 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 4: you know, if you want to figure out what's important 676 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 4: to somebody, there's a good argument that you should just 677 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 4: go look at their you know, their credit card register 678 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 4: and see what they've been spending their money on. 679 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and their calendar whatever they've been spending their time. 680 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: To be exactly, we say something matters, Oh, time with 681 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,479 Speaker 1: my kids matters. Well, I don't know how much time 682 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: are spin it right exactly like did you did you 683 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: hop on the bike with them this over the weekend 684 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: or whatever? 685 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 4: I mean? 686 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I love that you focus so much on time, Ben, 687 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,479 Speaker 3: because you know, because you might look at somebody's bank 688 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 3: account and they may not actually be spending their money, right, 689 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 3: and so you have the ability to see from their 690 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 3: spending or a specific from their lack of spending. 691 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: That, man, what what is it that you actually do value? 692 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: Because there is a way to kind of choke that off. 693 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: Whereas the time that like our days, no matter what, 694 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: we are spending our time doing something we're forced to 695 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: no matter like, you can't stop time. It is taking 696 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,959 Speaker 1: along no matter what. And so even if your Netflix 697 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: and chilling literally the whole day, yes, or even if 698 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: you have a completely you're like, oh, I can't wait 699 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: for Saturday, the calendar is completely wide open. Well, you're 700 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: going to do something with that time is. So what 701 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: you actually do with that, I think does reflect on 702 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: what it is that that you truly do value. I 703 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: think if you were to sum it up like that, 704 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: we are kind of the sum of our habits, the 705 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: things that we spend our time doing. We kind of, 706 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, become in a sense formed by those habits. Right, 707 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: And and there are some habits that have negative financial consequences. 708 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: In your in the software that you developed Chronify, you 709 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: talk about the impact of habits on our lives. How 710 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: do you do that in the software? And and then 711 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,040 Speaker 1: how do you help people understand their habits and the 712 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: financial and time consequences of them? 713 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 4: Sure, I think, well, unsurprisingly, it's all about time. And 714 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 4: so when I think of when I think of a habit, 715 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 4: and you think about something as tricky as human behavior, 716 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 4: you know, changing a habit is not easy. And so 717 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 4: what we try and do is we try and you know, 718 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 4: marry together the left brain spreadsheety sort of numbers side 719 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 4: of the equation with the right brain, you know, holistic 720 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 4: emotional side of things. That's where you're going to make 721 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 4: all your decisions anyway, So let's work through like an example, 722 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 4: if you have a habit. Let's say you you know, 723 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 4: you're at the office. You you get like a fancy 724 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 4: sandwich at work for lunch or that type of thing, 725 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 4: and you're thinking about a habit change. You're going like, Okay, 726 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 4: my waistline and my budget are saying that maybe I 727 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 4: should maybe think about this habit. Then you might think 728 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 4: about packing lunch to work, for example. And if you 729 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 4: do that, then you may get to the end of 730 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 4: the month and you realize, like, Okay, I save two 731 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 4: hundred dollars by packing my lunch to work instead of 732 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 4: buying this fancy sandwich. And if you do that, then 733 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 4: if you've made some progress and you've already kind of 734 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 4: accumulated some investments and stuff, you might look at your 735 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 4: brokerage account at the end of the month and go 736 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 4: like it's up or down by five to ten grand, 737 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 4: and it's like, why did I do this to myself? 738 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 4: Why did I deprive myself of this you know, midday 739 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 4: treat or whatever. But you're kind of missing the missing 740 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 4: the point because you're you're looking at You're going two 741 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 4: hundred dollars versus ten grand, This is out of my control? 742 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 4: Why do I care? But the reality is the power 743 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 4: of habit, especially as it relates to time, is that 744 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 4: that you know, two hundred dollars a month is two 745 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 4: hundred dollars a month, and so that's twenty four hundred 746 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,479 Speaker 4: dollars a year, which if you're going to invest money 747 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 4: and try and live off your money forever, then that requires, 748 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 4: you know, assume the four percent rule four percent real 749 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 4: return after taxes or whatever. Then you need sixty thousand 750 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 4: dollars to fund that habit in perpetuity. And so it's 751 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 4: no longer comparing this two hundred dollars savings with you 752 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,239 Speaker 4: know this ten grand that your brokerage account went up 753 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 4: or down. You're comparing you know this, this ten grand 754 00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 4: that your brokerage account went up or down with a 755 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 4: six sixty thousand dollars impact of this habit. And so 756 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 4: what we kind of do by looking at things in 757 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 4: terms of time is right, size all of this and 758 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 4: adjust for the fact that, look, if you if you 759 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 4: decrease your expenses, then yes, you know you're running faster 760 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 4: toward the finish line. But the beautiful thing is when 761 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 4: you metric it in terms of time, you also see 762 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 4: that the finish line is running towards you because if 763 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 4: your expenses go lower, then enough is lower, and if 764 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 4: enough is lower, it takes less time to get there. 765 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: Well that sounds like, I don't know, it make you 766 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: feel better knowing that not only are you e dining closer, 767 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: but like the finish line is inching further in your 768 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: direction too. Yes, then we got a couple more questions 769 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: for you, including curious to hear your take on paying 770 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: for convenience you're essentially buying time back. I would love 771 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on that. We'll get to a 772 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: couple questions on that front right after this. 773 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 3: All right, back to our conversation with Ben Miller and 774 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 3: uh been right before the brake, Joel, you know we 775 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 3: were talking about your app Chronify. Personally, I was secretly 776 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 3: hoping that your one of your craft bre equivalents was 777 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 3: going to be watches, like like like because I don't 778 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:11,879 Speaker 3: think we've ever had anybody on the show where they 779 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 3: were like, oh I like to collect vintage Rolex's, Like 780 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 3: oh yeah, I've got a bunch of pocket watches Omega 781 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 3: Speedmasters or something like that. I only say this because 782 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 3: there's a brief period of time where I really got 783 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 3: into them, and I thought, is this something? 784 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:27,320 Speaker 2: Am I going to be like a watch guy? And 785 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 2: I was like, no way, these things are way too expensive. 786 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: It would be a fitting hobby for you, though, Ben, 787 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: it would I would be. 788 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 4: I'm ashamed to say I've just got a fit bit. 789 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 4: That's that's what I'm right. 790 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 3: Hey, I've got a bracelet that my daughter made on 791 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 3: my rest. But been like different optimization gurus out there, 792 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 3: like they've kind of created a cult around productivity, and 793 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 3: oftentimes you can kind of enter that space when you're 794 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 3: talking about time and it's our belief that I think 795 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 3: oftentimes this goes overboard and it leads many folks to 796 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 3: just like a nose to the grindstone mentality where you 797 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 3: are foregoing any pleasures in the here now. So you know, 798 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 3: some optimization is helpful, but do you think it can 799 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 3: be overdone? 800 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,359 Speaker 4: Optimization is something that can absolutely be overdone. I think 801 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 4: people who are wired like I think you guys are 802 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 4: and like I am, you know, there's a there's a 803 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 4: temptation to really to really go ham on optimization. But 804 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 4: you gotta you gotta make sure that you're you know, 805 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 4: accounting for your humanity here, like you're not a robot 806 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 4: it's not a it's not a it's not a matter 807 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 4: of putting in the right code and then just executing 808 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 4: until you die. It's it's about finding something that's not 809 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,439 Speaker 4: only you know, going to get you where you're going 810 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 4: and do it on time, but also you know in 811 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 4: being able to enjoy and savor it all along the way, 812 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 4: because ultimately, like you get to the end of the 813 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 4: end of your life on your deathbed, all that matters 814 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 4: is human connection anyways. And so if you're if you're 815 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 4: optimizing for anything other than that, you're kind of messing 816 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 4: it up. 817 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: Hmm. I love that. Okay, let's talk about paying for 818 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: convenience because it's saving you time, right, which is, as 819 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: we said, kind of the most critical resource here. But 820 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: Americans are also spending a lot of money on convenience 821 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: that they might not be able to afford. I'm thinking, like, 822 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: some kinds of paying for convenience makes sense to me, 823 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: but then other kinds make a whole lot less sense. 824 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: Grub Hub, for example, I don't get it, like I'm 825 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: not going to do it, But then there are other 826 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 1: things where I do pay someone to let's say, mow 827 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: my lawn so that Saturdays I can spend on the 828 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: hiking trails or with kids doing activity stuff like that. 829 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on paying for comedians and where 830 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:26,879 Speaker 1: do you draw the line? 831 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 4: Oh, man, I'm kind of an Aweschuck's midwesterner, and so 832 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 4: like I was feeling incriminated because like I still mow 833 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,800 Speaker 4: my lawn and it's probably a horrible use of my time. 834 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 4: It's like I, I it's different for different people, you know. 835 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 4: For me, it's like I kind of look for those 836 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 4: two firs or three firs in life where it's just like, Okay, 837 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 4: well it might be it might take me less time 838 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 4: to drive to the gym, but maybe it's you know, 839 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 4: I'm going there anyways to exercise, and so maybe I 840 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 4: should walk. For me, I look at mowing my lawn 841 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 4: and they're kind of like a similar rubric where it's 842 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 4: just like, Okay, well I was going to get some 843 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 4: physical activity, I might as well, you know, do something, 844 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 4: do something productive with it. But in terms of paying 845 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 4: for convenience, I think it's all about your values. It's 846 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,359 Speaker 4: all about you know, one, live within your means. That's 847 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 4: rule number one. If you're breaking that one, like, sort 848 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 4: that out before we get into this stuff. But if 849 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,280 Speaker 4: you're able to live within your means, then it's about 850 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 4: figuring out what your what your values actually are. And so, 851 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:21,800 Speaker 4: like I think of one of the habits that always 852 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 4: kind of comes up on the top of my charts. 853 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 4: It's a fast casual restaurant called Kava. It's kind of 854 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 4: like a Mediterranean interpotal. Actually they just ipot and so 855 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 4: maybe more people think about them, and then I'm aware 856 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 4: of anyways, I think of that and I go, Okay, 857 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 4: well should I feel ashamed of this? You know, like 858 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 4: what are what are we doing here? And really what 859 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 4: it is is it's a way for us to put 860 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 4: food on the table that's you know, clean, healthy and 861 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 4: convenient without the cooking and cleaning and just be able 862 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 4: to kind of sit down with all five of us 863 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 4: as a family and enjoy ourselves. And so I look 864 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 4: at that and it's like, yes, we're paying more for convenience, 865 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,959 Speaker 4: but for us, it's mission aligned and so it's it's 866 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 4: those convenience things. Is that's how I That's the rubric 867 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 4: that I evaluated under is does it align with my mission? 868 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 4: And can I afford it? And if both of those 869 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 4: come back yes, then go for it. 870 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: But do you get it delivered or do you go 871 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: pick it up? 872 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 3: Oh? 873 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 4: No, we pick it up. 874 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: We're not okay, we're not rights. 875 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 2: That's what I like to hear. It doesn't have that 876 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:18,720 Speaker 2: delivery money. 877 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 3: That's a demarcation on the financial independent spectrum is how 878 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 3: readily are you ordering food. 879 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 2: To be literally dropped? 880 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: Are delivery? 881 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 3: Five? 882 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 4: Yeah? Right? 883 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: Yes, I don't know that I've ever got enough money 884 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: in my bank account to overcome like the what's like 885 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 1: what's built inside of me? 886 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:35,799 Speaker 4: Right? 887 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 3: Those extra dollars in particular, because if that doesn't align 888 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 3: with your mission. So like, I like how you said that, Ben, 889 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 3: because that kind of goes back to you know, when 890 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 3: it comes to how we should think about spending more money, 891 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 3: it's like, do I value this? It comes down to intention? Yes, 892 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 3: because it makes me think about For a while there, 893 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 3: I was cutting my own grass because not because I 894 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,280 Speaker 3: was afraid of spending the money, but because I wanted 895 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 3: my kids to see me cutting the grass. There is 896 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 3: a lesson there and seeing and for them, and I 897 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 3: literally made them made them watch it the whole time. 898 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 3: Sit here on this deep I'll watch it, watch that crass. 899 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 3: But it's just I don't know there's there's a lesson 900 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 3: to be to be taught there, and we're like, we're 901 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,840 Speaker 3: doing something similar right now when it comes to cleaning, 902 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 3: cleaning the house, and because I'm like, we are in 903 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 3: a financial position to where we could clean the house, 904 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 3: but I want my kids to know what it is like, 905 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,799 Speaker 3: what it's like to clean the house, for them to 906 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 3: pick up all their things, to dust their their blinds, 907 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 3: Like literally, we did that this past Saturday, and I 908 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 3: kind of I try to brainwash them a little bit. 909 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,359 Speaker 3: We call it super Saturday, but it's where we it's 910 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 3: good branding and in the morning we go hog wild 911 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 3: and we go to town on the cleaning. Because I 912 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 3: we may not always do that, but at least for 913 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 3: a period of time and maybe and definitely who knows, 914 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 3: because maybe they'll get so good at it that I 915 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 3: don't know, they're able to like knock it out faster 916 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 3: and faster. But I think, like you said, man, if 917 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 3: you are able to align the mission of what it 918 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 3: is that you are doing with how it is that 919 00:40:58,080 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 3: you're spending money or not spending the money, I think 920 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 3: think that can lead to the justification to be parted 921 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 3: with your dollars. Whether again whether or not you're saving 922 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 3: money or whether you are actually spending that money. But 923 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, I think that's what's 924 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 3: at the core of this conversation. 925 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 4: I absolutely and to me it comes back to curating 926 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 4: your problems. Because you know, you might opt into cleaning 927 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 4: the house while you opt out at mowing the lawn. 928 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,240 Speaker 4: That's just fine, you know. Like there it's different strokes 929 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 4: for different folks, and it's something that everybody kind of 930 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,240 Speaker 4: has to figure out for themselves. What's important to remember 931 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 4: is that it is this balance that needs to be 932 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 4: struck because you don't want to be, you know, just 933 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 4: completely diying everything and shooting yourself in the foot. You 934 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,760 Speaker 4: know by doing so. You don't want to be whatever, 935 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 4: stitching your own shoes and weaving your own clothes, you know, 936 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 4: at least for most people. But at the same time, 937 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,279 Speaker 4: you don't want to be outsourcing everything either, because if 938 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 4: you outsource every problem in your life, you've just gone 939 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 4: and outsourced your life. You need to participate in solving 940 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 4: some problems because otherwise, like frankly, there's nothing left to 941 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 4: life once you subtract you know, all the problems. What 942 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 4: are you just gonna lay there blissed out and like 943 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,760 Speaker 4: looking at the sky, like there's there's. 944 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: Like Peter from office space. 945 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 4: Right. 946 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 1: I think some people that's like kind of their goal is. 947 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna eventually get to that. But what 948 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,720 Speaker 1: you're alluding to is our lives never run out of problems, 949 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: they just look different. 950 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, And so it's it's about choosing which problems 951 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 4: you opt into and being able to choose that is 952 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:26,399 Speaker 4: a wonderful thing. 953 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, Ben, this has been a great conversation. Man, 954 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. How can our 955 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 1: listeners find out more about about you, about your podcast 956 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: and about the chronified software that you've created. 957 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, so we've got a podcast, the Quantify Podcast, aptly named, 958 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,239 Speaker 4: and the main way is you can come and check 959 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 4: out Chronify. In fact, if you go to chronified dot 960 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 4: com slash how to Money, there's a twenty five percent 961 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,879 Speaker 4: discount waiting for you. And that's that's good as long 962 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 4: as we're as long as we're alive and kicking. So 963 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,840 Speaker 4: that that's the first month, it's it's good forever. So 964 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,080 Speaker 4: I would love to I love what you guys are doing. 965 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 4: I love the podcast, I love you know, the awareness 966 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 4: that you guys are creating about the right way to 967 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 4: think about this stuff. And so I really want to say, 968 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 4: I appreciate you having me on. 969 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: Oh Man, No, we're glad. I'm glad to do it. 970 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 1: We're just too idiots learning on the fly. Honestly, as 971 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: we're having these conversations, we're and we're learning alongside our audience. 972 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 1: We're not here from some perch up above trying to 973 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: tell people how to live. And so that's why these 974 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,840 Speaker 1: conversations are so informative couple for Matt and I and 975 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: hopefully for the audience too. So Ben, we appreciate you 976 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,320 Speaker 1: coming on, man, Thank you, Thank. 977 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 2: You nice joel Man. 978 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 3: It's always fun to talk with somebody who is like 979 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 3: missionally aligned, right, like Ben is thinking about his money 980 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:40,719 Speaker 3: and his time in a similar way. 981 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: That we try to that we strive to at least. 982 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 3: And I just said missionally aligned. And so I'm gonna 983 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 3: go actually gonna go ahead and give my big takeaway. 984 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 1: Because stealing Ben's phrases now it. 985 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 3: Is well, one of the things that Ben said, like 986 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 3: when it comes to like that was the advice he 987 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 3: had for trying to determine what it is that you're 988 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 3: going to spend money on, He said, like what is. 989 00:43:58,920 --> 00:43:59,720 Speaker 4: It that you value? 990 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,240 Speaker 3: And similarly, what is it like what is your mission 991 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,799 Speaker 3: going to be? And this is a quick plug for 992 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,879 Speaker 3: the how to money mission statement. It takes some time. 993 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 3: It takes a little bit of introspection, asking yourself the 994 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 3: right questions in order to figure out what it is 995 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,360 Speaker 3: that your mission is going to be, in order to 996 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,799 Speaker 3: figure out subsequently then what it is that you're going 997 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 3: to spend your money on. And so that was my big, 998 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 3: big takeaway, And that's not necessarily anything new, and so 999 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 3: I'm gonna I've got a new thought because when it 1000 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 3: comes to a lot of times, folks come to us 1001 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,680 Speaker 3: with questions and they're like, Okay, should I pay off 1002 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 3: this debt or should I do something else with it? 1003 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 3: And oftentimes what we say is that it depends and 1004 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 3: specifically it depends on what you're doing without money. If 1005 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 3: you don't pay down that debt. Right, It's like, sure, 1006 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 3: you could eliminate some student loans where you're paying seven percent, 1007 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 3: but are you then going to take that money and 1008 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,279 Speaker 3: invest it where you're based on historic returns, you're going 1009 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,400 Speaker 3: to earn at least seven percent? Because if not, it 1010 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,839 Speaker 3: might be a waste of money. Right, And so let's 1011 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 3: take that same principle and apply it to time. I 1012 00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,320 Speaker 3: think that's another way that I'm going to start using 1013 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 3: to deter and whether or not something is worth me 1014 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,280 Speaker 3: spending the money on. Okay, I have now gained time 1015 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 3: in my life. I have essentially made time. Now what 1016 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 3: am I gonna do with that time? Am I going 1017 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 3: to use that time and funnel it towards things that 1018 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 3: are that I place a high value on, towards things 1019 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,840 Speaker 3: that are missionally aligned with what I say are important? 1020 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 3: Or am I just gonna like sit around like like 1021 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:23,920 Speaker 3: you know, I thought, like you were saying, am I 1022 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,960 Speaker 3: going to end up on the couch browsing Netflix or 1023 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,280 Speaker 3: something like that, looking for you know, just ways to 1024 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 3: pass the time? Well, if that were to be the case, 1025 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 3: and that would be a poor use of spending that money, right, 1026 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 3: Like if I pay somebody to cut the yard and 1027 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:37,920 Speaker 3: instead I'm using that time. 1028 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 2: To watch more TV. 1029 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 3: Well, you know what, if you're if you want to 1030 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 3: be like a movie critic or like, okay, then it 1031 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,239 Speaker 3: could be missionally aligned. But for the vast majority of folk, 1032 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,360 Speaker 3: that's it's just a default thing because Oh the sofa 1033 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 3: in the couch, it's comfortable. 1034 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:52,759 Speaker 2: I'm gonna sit there. 1035 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 3: Oh the remote is just right here, and it's just 1036 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 3: something you kind of fall into. Folks are like, we're 1037 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 3: so tempted to just hit the easy button and we 1038 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 3: haven't thought through some of these more value driven ways 1039 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,560 Speaker 3: that we could spend not only our money, but our time. 1040 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:09,280 Speaker 3: And so that I just want to take that principle 1041 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 3: from money and I want us to also apply it 1042 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 3: to time. What are you then going to take the 1043 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 3: time that you've made or the time that you've saved. 1044 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:17,880 Speaker 3: Is that going to something that you actually value? 1045 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my big take I think my bigg takeaway 1046 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 1: was when he said, thinking in terms of time, it 1047 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,799 Speaker 1: grants you ownership and permission, right, And so he gave 1048 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 1: the example of going out to eat, going on date 1049 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,359 Speaker 1: night with his wife and how when he thought when 1050 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,400 Speaker 1: he thinks of it as just dollars floating out, he 1051 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: gets nervous. Right, He's a reluctant spender, which I can 1052 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 1: identify with. But when he thinks about it in terms 1053 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 1: of oh, yeah, it's going to cost me some time 1054 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: off for retirement, off my future ability to not have 1055 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 1: to work. Well, actually, it's not as big of a 1056 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,120 Speaker 1: deal because this is a really important thing and I 1057 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 1: like my work. And so when it gave him actually 1058 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: the permission to spend money in a way that he 1059 00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,799 Speaker 1: was reticent to do, and I thought of that as 1060 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: being really empowering. And I think when we think about 1061 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: what something costs us, not just in terms of dollars 1062 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,560 Speaker 1: and cents, but also in terms of hours of the day, 1063 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: it can really help us to reframe whether or not 1064 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,399 Speaker 1: that thing is worth it or not. And so, yeah, 1065 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,040 Speaker 1: it does it make sense to spend the money on 1066 00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,759 Speaker 1: a convenience or on a new item for your wardrobe. 1067 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, think about your hourly rate, Maybe figure 1068 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 1: that out. We've talked about how to do that on 1069 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: a previous podcast, and think about it in terms of that. 1070 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:31,799 Speaker 1: Wait a second, is that new dress or that new 1071 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: sport code worth four point eight hours of my life? 1072 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe that reframes the purchase 1073 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 1: a little bit, and it either helps empower you to 1074 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,080 Speaker 1: spend in ways that you do value or kind of 1075 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,719 Speaker 1: puts the kaibash on spending in a way that you're like, eh, eh, 1076 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: I don't think it's worth it. 1077 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:47,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I love it man. 1078 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, not surprisingly, our takeaways are related, like whereas I 1079 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,600 Speaker 3: mean you're specifically, I think what you're kind of getting 1080 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,400 Speaker 3: at are the emotions that can surround purchases, like feelings 1081 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 3: of freedom or empowerment, or feelings of regrets or reluctance 1082 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,400 Speaker 3: when it comes to spending your money. But if you 1083 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,959 Speaker 3: are able to identify the things that you value in life, 1084 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,800 Speaker 3: it makes not only saving but also spending your money 1085 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 3: so much easier. And I appreciate that Ben focuses on 1086 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 3: that side of the equation as much as hopefully we do. 1087 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 3: I think we spend a decent amount of time talking 1088 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:20,960 Speaker 3: about That's why we talk about the craft beer equivalent, right, 1089 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,120 Speaker 3: because we're looking for things from our guests that they value. 1090 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,160 Speaker 3: You know, we want to frame the conversation around that. 1091 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 3: It's not just about saving and investing as much as 1092 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:31,120 Speaker 3: humanly plants. 1093 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,000 Speaker 1: I feel like in recent years I've been able to 1094 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,640 Speaker 1: find more joy in spending in the ways that I 1095 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: care about, the ways that I say that I care about, 1096 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,919 Speaker 1: instead of feeling reluctant to do those things, largely through 1097 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,919 Speaker 1: kind of changing my framework. But it's important to do. Yeah, 1098 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: you mentioned beer. Let's get back to the beer we 1099 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,279 Speaker 1: had on the show. This is called aproguav Tasty. It's 1100 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,280 Speaker 1: by the Veil and Veil. Of course, we like spending 1101 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,359 Speaker 1: ridiculous amounts of money on good craft beer from time 1102 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,200 Speaker 1: to time, this one being no exception. Or your thoughts 1103 00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:57,919 Speaker 1: on the spear map. 1104 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, well I like it in the label. It's not 1105 00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,560 Speaker 3: like an ice cream cone. It looks like like the graphic. 1106 00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,400 Speaker 3: It's like a rad ice cream cone. Guy, But it 1107 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,560 Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily taste like sugart or anything like that. But 1108 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,839 Speaker 3: this is one percent like a smoothie style sour lots 1109 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:16,520 Speaker 3: of fruit going on. 1110 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:18,319 Speaker 2: Man, This thing poured quite. 1111 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,440 Speaker 3: Thick, and I was expecting it to be a bit sweeter, 1112 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,239 Speaker 3: but it was not. It had like, I don't know, 1113 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,920 Speaker 3: the kind of sweetness that you would get from real fruit, 1114 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:32,480 Speaker 3: which oftentimes isn't super sugary, not artificial, but really tasted 1115 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,600 Speaker 3: like fruit and beer form. Yeah exactly, Yeah, yeah, there's 1116 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 3: no high fruit corn syrup sugars in here. 1117 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:38,439 Speaker 1: This. 1118 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,719 Speaker 3: This feels like all true fruit sugar sugariness that the 1119 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 3: guy going on here, but super good. I'm not normally 1120 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,040 Speaker 3: a do you like apricots? 1121 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,960 Speaker 1: Oh, I was just about to say apricots are underutilizing 1122 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,840 Speaker 1: in beer. I think they're one of the best fruits 1123 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:53,640 Speaker 1: to stick in a beer, and for some reason, very 1124 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:54,360 Speaker 1: few people use them. 1125 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,200 Speaker 2: I'm not a Yeah, I'm not a huge one. How 1126 00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 2: do you eat apricots? You get them like dried out 1127 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:00,800 Speaker 2: where they're like they're like giho. 1128 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,840 Speaker 1: I always get him in beer form. Oh yeah, like peaches. 1129 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 1: I feel like peaches are more normal, right, Like that's 1130 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 1: a I love peach. I don't know the last time 1131 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:10,800 Speaker 1: I had an actual apricot. That was probably when I 1132 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:11,640 Speaker 1: was a kid. Oh is it? 1133 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,640 Speaker 2: I don't even know how to say it, tomatow, But 1134 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 2: I don't know. 1135 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:15,239 Speaker 4: Man. 1136 00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not my favorite, but I definitely enjoyed it 1137 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:19,880 Speaker 3: in beer for I'm glad you and I got to 1138 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,320 Speaker 3: enjoy and you did taste some of those tropical guava 1139 00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,200 Speaker 3: notes going on there a little bit as well. 1140 00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 1: But uh, and definitely like an interesting body inconsistency too. 1141 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,480 Speaker 1: Talking about the thickness, Yeah, it truly is like it 1142 00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,200 Speaker 1: it's like we're again, is like we cracked open an 1143 00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,080 Speaker 1: odwala and we're pouring one of those out or this 1144 00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:37,879 Speaker 1: or naked juice. 1145 00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:39,400 Speaker 3: I don't even know if they make out Walla anymore. 1146 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,440 Speaker 3: I don't know anyway. That's gonna be it for this episode. 1147 00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,719 Speaker 3: Enough about our beer. You can find the links that 1148 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:47,840 Speaker 3: we mentioned up in our show notes at how tomoney 1149 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,480 Speaker 3: dot com, including the link to the special offer that 1150 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:52,960 Speaker 3: that Ben's got out there for our listeners. 1151 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,919 Speaker 1: It never expires for the rest of time, which makes sense. 1152 00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,520 Speaker 3: It all fits together. Yea, what do you do? You 1153 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,239 Speaker 3: also wish that he would have said watches. Yeah, I 1154 00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,720 Speaker 3: feel like that would have been to like batman villain 1155 00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,800 Speaker 3: ish if he was just like if he's like obsess 1156 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,520 Speaker 3: with time, like flavor, flavor each one on his neck. Yeah, 1157 00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,480 Speaker 3: but that's gonna be it for this episode, buddy. Until 1158 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,200 Speaker 3: next time, best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,