1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Col Zone Media. 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 2: In the summer of nineteen sixty four, a recent law 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 2: school graduate was sitting down for a meeting with one 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: of his former professors, Philip Hirshcopp had worked his way 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 2: through Georgetown Law as a patent examiner, but even before graduation, 6 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 2: he knew he was never going to be a patent attorney. 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 2: While he was still a student, he met civil rights 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 2: attorney Dean Rob at a party the summer before his 9 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 2: last year of law school, who traveled with Rob to Danville, 10 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 2: Virginia to help defend the civil rights demonstrators arrested in 11 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: the aftermath of Bloody Monday, a particularly brutal state response 12 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,599 Speaker 2: to protests for racial equality. By the time he graduated 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: law school, Hirshkopp was already working on a case that 14 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 2: would protect the right of public school teachers to engage 15 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 2: in civil rights protests in their personal time. And on 16 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: that afternoon in nineteen sixty four, as he was chatting 17 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 2: with his old professor, another of the professor's former students 18 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: stopped by. Bernie Cohen had been working on a civil 19 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: rights case in Virginia for more than a year already, 20 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: but he was looking for some help. It was a 21 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 2: perfect coincidence maybe that Philip Pershkopp was there that day, 22 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,919 Speaker 2: and the pair spent the next several years working together 23 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 2: on the case. In April of nineteen sixty seven, just 24 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 2: three years out of law school, Philip Phershkopp stood before 25 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court of the United States and argued on 26 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 2: behalf of his clients, Mildred and Richard Loving, you have 27 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 2: before us. 28 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 3: Today we consider the most odious of the segregations laws 29 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 3: and the slavery laws. 30 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 4: And our view of this law, and we hope could 31 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 4: clearly show is that this is slavery. 32 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 2: A few months after winning the right to interracial marriage 33 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 2: for not only the Lovings but all Americans, Philip Hirshkopp 34 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: took on a very different kind of client. He agreed 35 00:01:51,200 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 2: to represent the American Nazi Party. I'm Molly Conger, this 36 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 2: is weird little guys. Philip Hushcopp is not our weird 37 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: little guy. But the case he took on in the 38 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 2: fall of nineteen sixty seven concerns the corpse of George 39 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: Lincoln Rockwell. Hirshcop's career as a civil rights attorney spanned decades. 40 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 2: He won the case that forced the University of Virginia 41 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 2: to admit female students. He won a case that outlawed 42 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,119 Speaker 2: the common practice of placing pregnant teachers on unpaid leave. 43 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: He defended the right to teach evolution in schools. He 44 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: represented thousands of demonstrators arrested for protesting the Vietnam War, 45 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: including novelist Norman Mayler. He was an outspoken advocate for 46 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 2: prison reform. In his his later years, he worked on 47 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: cases for animal rights, representing PETA for many years. He 48 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: is listed as the council of record for Tillicum the 49 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 2: Whale in a twenty twelve lawsuit against SeaWorld. Taking on 50 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 2: the American Nazi Party as a client seems out of 51 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 2: step with the rest of his career. In a twenty 52 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 2: seventeen article in the American Bar Association Journal, he says 53 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 2: he turned the case down when it was first presented 54 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 2: to him, but his colleagues at the American Civil Liberties 55 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: Union pressured him. It was a matter of free speech, 56 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: was it not. It comes up every now and again 57 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: on this show that the ACLU has a long standing 58 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 2: habit of representing American fascists. They call it a principled 59 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: commitment to constitutional rights. Regardless of how odious the speaker 60 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 2: or how unpleasant the speech. Personally, I would call it 61 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 2: shortsighted at best, and more often than not, a dangerous, foolish, 62 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 2: and morally bankrupt course of action, And I'm sure they 63 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: would defend my right to say it. Real life doesn't 64 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: have the same clean rules as a hypothetical scenario in 65 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: a bar exam question. In theory, defending the rights of 66 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 2: everyone equally should result in more equal rights for everyone. 67 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: In practice, it would seem that the only reward you 68 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 2: get for honing your enemy's weapon is the blood on 69 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 2: your face the next time he strikes you. Here in Charlottesville, 70 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 2: none of us have forgotten how the acl use eleventh 71 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 2: hour defense of the organizers of the Unite the Right 72 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 2: rally led to the violence in our streets less than 73 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 2: a day later. They defended the rights of those neo 74 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,559 Speaker 2: Nazis to demonstrate in the heart of downtown, and in turn, 75 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 2: those Nazis used that right to violate the rights of 76 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: everyone they encountered. But I'm sure I'll have an opportunity 77 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: to talk more about the ACLU's history of defending the 78 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 2: indefensible some other time. In that article, in twenty seventeen. 79 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: Hirschkob says his own parents refused to speak to him 80 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: for two years after he represented the American Nazi Party. 81 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: But what exactly did those Nazis need his help with. 82 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: The ACLU had gone to bat for the American Nazi 83 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 2: Party before they represented George Lincoln Rockwell when the New 84 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 2: York City Parks Commissioner denied him a permit to speak 85 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty and the ACLU came to Rockwell's aid 86 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: again when a group of Jewish war veterans sought an 87 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 2: injunction to prevent him from leading another Nazi march in 88 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: Chicago after the violent assault his stormtroopers unleashed in Marquette 89 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: Park in nineteen sixty six. But in the fall of 90 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven, the ACLU couldn't very well represent George 91 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 2: Lincoln Rockwell IVI. George Lincoln Rockwell was dead. This case 92 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 2: was about his dead body. You see, George Lincoln Rockwell 93 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: was a veteran. He was technically entitled to a military 94 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,799 Speaker 2: funeral and burial in a national cemetery. As the leader 95 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: of the American Nazi Party. He'd called himself Commander Rockwell, 96 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: and that wasn't just an affectation. He had reached the 97 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: rank of commander in the United States Navy. The man 98 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 2: who believed that he was America's hitler had technically served 99 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 2: honorably in World War II. Rockwell joined the Navy after 100 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: dropping out of Brown University in nineteen forty, and he 101 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 2: was commissioned as a naval aviator just days after the 102 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: attack on Pearl Harbor. He never flew any combat missions, 103 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 2: but he served in both the Battle of the Atlantic 104 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 2: and in the Pacific Theater. By the end of the war, 105 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: he was a lieutenant commander, a rank he held as 106 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 2: a reserve officer until he was recalled to active duty 107 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 2: during the Korean War. He returned to reserve status at 108 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: the rank of commander in nineteen fifty four. Before we 109 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 2: get into the battle to bury Rockwell with military honors, 110 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: I should answer a question you might be asking. I mean, 111 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 2: I was asking it. Could he possibly have been eligible 112 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 2: for this? He was discharged from the Navy in nineteen 113 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 2: sixty and that discharge was absolutely explicitly because he was 114 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 2: a Nazi. Parading around in a Nazi uniform is the 115 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: kind of thing that gets you a dishonorable discharge, surely 116 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:24,239 Speaker 2: right in this case. 117 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 5: No. 118 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: By the late nineteen fifties, Rockwell was making a name 119 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 2: for himself as an anti semit. In nineteen fifty nine, 120 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 2: he set up shop just outside of Washington, d c. 121 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 2: And he was holding frequent demonstrations in the nation's capital. 122 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: There he was declaring himself the head of the American 123 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 2: Nazi Party, wearing a swastika armband, passing out hateful literature 124 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 2: right outside the White House, and some of his fellow 125 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: veterans were understandably disgusted. In nineteen fifty nine, irritated by 126 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 2: a series of unflattering articles digging into his less public affairs, 127 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 2: Rockwell filed a libel lawsuit against columnist Drew Pearson. During 128 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 2: a deposition in that case, Rockwell said, quote, here in 129 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: this country, I have the right to pass out literature. 130 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: If anyone tries to stop me, the police protect me. 131 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: I was in the Navy once. When people complain to 132 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: the Navy about me, the Navy says, that's okay. He 133 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: has a right to belong to a political party, and 134 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: he wasn't wrong as a reservist. He wasn't really the 135 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 2: Navy's problem. It's not that they didn't know what he 136 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: was up to. They did. Even before those weekly rallies 137 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: in DC put him in the public spotlight, the government 138 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: had been keeping an eye on him. By the spring 139 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 2: of nineteen fifty nine, the FBI was monitoring his bank accounts, 140 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 2: surveilling his home, receiving photo copies of the exterior of 141 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 2: every piece of mail he sent or received, and for 142 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 2: several months that year they were intercepting all of his 143 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: household garbage. But Jay Edgar Hoover's neuroses didn't necessarily concern 144 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 2: the Navy. Rockwell hadn't been on active duty for years, 145 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 2: and according to a statement from a Navy spokesman, he 146 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: wasn't subject to the Uniform Code of Military Conduct while 147 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: on inactive status. But the stunts continued. And remember this 148 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 2: is nineteen sixty. World War II is not some distant past. 149 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 2: It's not a piece of history. If you stop by 150 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 2: your local VFW halt today, you might see a couple 151 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 2: of very old Vietnam veterans. But in nineteen sixty, the 152 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 2: men hanging out at the veterans of foreign war posts 153 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: had very fresh memories of fighting the Nazis in Europe, 154 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: and they were starting to make noise. In January of 155 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty, the Fairfax County Virginia VFW adopted a resolution 156 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: by unanimous vote to ask the Navy to strip Rockwell 157 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 2: of his rank. The ADL was complaining to the press 158 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 2: the Jewish Labor Committee was making public demands for an 159 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: investigation by the Attorney General. After their initial public statements 160 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: that as a reservist, Rockwell's political activities were the free 161 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 2: speech of a private citizen, the Navy changed their minds. 162 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: There's no clear public statement pointing to exactly what it 163 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 2: was that changed their minds, but it seems like all 164 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 2: the public attention had escalated the issue to the point 165 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 2: that it was now a problem in need of a solution. 166 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 2: The Navy sent Rockwell a letter notifying him that his 167 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 2: quote mobilization potential has been reduced to a point where 168 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 2: he is of no further value to the Navy, and 169 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 2: they called him to appear before a board of officers 170 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: in DC. In February of nineteen sixty, a Navy spokesman 171 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 2: told the press that proceedings to discharge reserve officers are 172 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 2: not of a public nature, so I don't have any 173 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 2: primary source documentation from their end As to what charges 174 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: Rockwell was defending himself against, But I do have the 175 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 2: statement he presented to the Navy in his own defense. 176 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 2: According to this bizarre eight page letter, the proceedings concerned 177 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: five primary allegations that he had been quote an active 178 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 2: participant and leader of various organizations styled along Nazi lines. 179 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 2: That he had quote publicly and openly espoused race and 180 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 2: religious hatred. That he had used or permitted to be 181 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: used his rank and status in the Naval Reserve in 182 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 2: printed matter distributed to the public fostering rachel and religious hatred. 183 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 2: That he had left the United States without permission from 184 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 2: the Navy, and that as an officer, if he were 185 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 2: to be recalled to duty, he would be commanding members 186 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 2: of the races and religions at which his propaganda was aimed. 187 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 2: He admitted guilt on just one of the charges. He 188 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: had left the United States in late night teen fifty 189 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: nine to visit his estranged wife in Iceland. He promised 190 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 2: it would never happen again, which was probably true. That 191 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: was the last time he ever saw his second wife. 192 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 2: As for the rest of it, well, he felt like 193 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 2: they were being very unfair to him. Is it even 194 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 2: really hatred if the people you hate deserve it, He wrote, quote, 195 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 2: I have never promoted or advocated hate, except of traitors 196 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: or subverters and others deserving of the hate of all 197 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 2: decent moral people. After a few pages of rambling vitriol 198 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 2: about how Jewish people are responsible for the evils of 199 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 2: communism and really, isn't he actually more loyal to the 200 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 2: United States because he's so committed to rooting out their influence, 201 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: he caps things off by saying he's never promoted unfounded 202 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 2: hatred of any innocent person or group. He brought two 203 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 2: witnesses with him to the hearing, a member of the 204 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 2: American Nazi Party who testified that the group didn't support 205 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 2: hatred or violence, and a weird old Holocaust denier who 206 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 2: gave a forty minute speech accusing the Assistant Secretary of 207 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 2: Defense of being a communist. The board voted unanimously to 208 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 2: discharge Rockwell, but this was purely administrative. He wasn't court martialed, 209 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: wasn't punished or disciplined or demoted. He wasn't on active duty, 210 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 2: so again, technically, when he died in nineteen sixty seven, 211 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 2: George Lincoln Rockwell was a United States Navy veteran who 212 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 2: had been honorably discharged after nineteen years of service, and 213 00:13:50,080 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 2: apparently he wanted a full military funeral. George Lincoln Rockwell 214 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 2: died at noon on Friday, August twenty fifth, nineteen sixty seven. 215 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: His family had not shared his politics, and they'd mostly 216 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: fallen out of touch. His parents divorced when he was 217 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 2: a child, but at the time of his death they 218 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 2: were both still alive. His father told reporters that he'd 219 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: seen less and less of his son in the final 220 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 2: years of his life, saying, quote, He'd always have those 221 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: bloody stormtroopers around him, and we could never talk, so 222 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 2: the visit stopped. His brother had cut off contact nearly 223 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 2: a decade earlier, when newspapers reported a possible connection between 224 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 2: Rockwell and the bombing of a synagogue in Atlanta. His 225 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 2: mother and sister kept in touch by letter over the years, 226 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: but they saw each other infrequently. But now he was dead. 227 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 2: In family, his family, he'd been their son, their brother. 228 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 2: After the autopsy was performed, his body waited in the 229 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 2: hospital Morgue. His father got on a train from Maine 230 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: and headed south. Matius Cole, having assumed command of the 231 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 2: American Nazi party claimed to be in possession of a 232 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 2: last will and testament that entrusted him personally with Rockwell's remains. 233 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: Rockwell's brother Bobby said the family wished to have a 234 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 2: private service in the small town in Maine where they'd 235 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: spent their childhood. And just a quick interjection here in 236 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 2: case anyone was wondering about this, I've been saying, and 237 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 2: we'll continue to say Cole Matius Cole. His name is German, 238 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: and it's spelled k o e h L. In German, 239 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 2: it would be something closer to kerl, but English speakers 240 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: tend to read that as coal, so that's what I 241 00:15:53,680 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 2: settled on. But apparently he pronounced it kale. Here's Frank 242 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 2: Smith talking about it back in the sixties. 243 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 5: Matthias Kale. Now I don't know where he gets the 244 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 5: name Kale. I think the German pronunciation would be curl 245 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 5: and the little translation in English would be coal, and 246 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 5: I don't think that's acceptable to him. So somehow are 247 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 5: these get kale unless I'm wrong on a German pronunciation. 248 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 5: For any way, it's kale. That's how he goes using 249 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 5: his name. 250 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 2: Frank's close enough on the German pronunciation but it doesn't 251 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: mean coal. It's closest to the German word for cabbage, 252 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: but it's not a word at all. It's just a 253 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: last name that probably originated as an occupational name for 254 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: someone who grows crops. Anyway, Coal, Curl, Kale, whatever you 255 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 2: want to call him, He's the guy in charge of 256 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 2: the American Nazi Party. After Rockwell's death on Saturday, the 257 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 2: body was moved to the funeral home. Bobby Rockwell told 258 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 2: reporters that the family was probably going to have to 259 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 2: get a lawyer to fight Cole for custody of the remains. 260 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 2: But just a day later, the same newspapers reported that 261 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 2: the funeral home in Virginia had received a telegram from 262 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 2: the family, and it read only the family no longer 263 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: wishes to contest the claim of Matt Cole concerning his 264 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 2: right to make funeral arrangements for g Lincoln Rockwell. Bobby 265 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 2: Rockwell told reporters that the family had made the difficult 266 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 2: decision for personal reasons and offered no further explanation. Years later, 267 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 2: Rockwell's biographer, Frederick Simonelli, interviewed one of Rockwell's cousins, and 268 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: the picture became a little bit clearer. The family gave 269 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 2: up the fight for Rockwall's body because they were afraid 270 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: Matias Cole had threatened to stage demonstrations outside Rockwell's mother's home. 271 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,239 Speaker 2: She was in her seventies and living alone in an 272 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 2: apartment in a predominantly Jewish Brooklyn neighborhood. Nothing good could 273 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 2: come from provoking the Nazis, so they relented. The Nazis 274 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 2: could have the body. On Monday, three days after the murder, 275 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 2: as John Patler was being reigned for that murder in 276 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 2: an Arlington courtroom, Matia's coal was busy making funeral arrangements. 277 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 2: The Pentagon granted the burial permit. They had no valid 278 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 2: reason to deny the application. Rockwell had served in two 279 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 2: wars and received an honorable discharge. He'd never been convicted 280 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 2: of a crime more serious than disorderly conduct, and he'd 281 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 2: never been formally linked to any group on the government's 282 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:41,959 Speaker 2: list of subversive organizations. For some reason, the American Nazi 283 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 2: Party was never on that list. Decorated veterans who'd been 284 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 2: dragged through the mud of McCarthyism were denied burial and 285 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 2: national cemeteries for being Communists, but the Nazi he was 286 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 2: good to go. They would allow George Lincoln Rockwell to 287 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 2: be interred in a national cemetery, but there would be conditions. 288 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 2: The letter Rockwell left coal with his final wishes requested 289 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 2: burial at Arlington National Cemetery. The government said they could 290 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 2: have any cemetery but Arlington, so they settled on nearby 291 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 2: Culpeper National Cemetery in central Virginia. The Navy did not 292 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 2: agree to the request that the military honor guard consists 293 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 2: only of white officers. They said they would get whoever 294 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 2: was available, and in the end no honor guard showed 295 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 2: up at all. And while they would allow Rockwell's corpse 296 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: to be dressed in a Nazi uniform inside the coffin, 297 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 2: they would not allow any visible display of Nazi iconography, 298 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 2: no Nazi flags, no Swastika armbands. The official statement from 299 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 2: the Department of Defense read, unseemly demonstrations such as the 300 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 2: wearing of the un insignia and emblems, or the display 301 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 2: of flags or banners of the American Nazi Party or 302 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 2: its members will not be permitted in ceremonies at a 303 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 2: national cemetery. A national cemetery is a permanent shrine in 304 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 2: honor of the dead of the armed Forces of this country. 305 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: Burial ceremonies must be conducted with dignity and with proper 306 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 2: concern for the sensibilities of those whose loved ones lie there. 307 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 2: The rules were relayed to Coal on Monday afternoon, and 308 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 2: the funeral was scheduled for eleven a m On Tuesday morning. 309 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: As long as the Nazis wore normal clothes and behaved 310 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 2: like normal mourners, they could have a perfectly normal funeral 311 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 2: at Culpeper National Cemetery On Monday evening. Cole told reporters 312 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 2: that they intended to give George Lincoln Rockwell the kind 313 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 2: of funeral he would have wanted, and the army was 314 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 2: ready for them. The funeral procession left Arlington at nine 315 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: am Tuesday morning, accompanied by a police escort from the 316 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 2: Arlington County Police. In a later issue of Stormtrooper magazine, 317 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 2: the Nazis claimed this procession was made up of sixty vehicles, 318 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 2: but most news accounts put the number of total mourners 319 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 2: at around fifty, so that can't be right. The line 320 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 2: of cars was led by a white Cadillac convertible full 321 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 2: of men in Nazi uniforms. Matius Cole rode in the 322 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: front seat of the hearse, which was decorated with a 323 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: giant red swastika wreath. I wonder if they assumed they 324 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 2: would be allowed to break the rules. Did they think 325 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 2: that there would be no one on scene to ensure 326 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: they were following the guidelines, Or did they think that 327 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 2: whoever was there to see them breaking the rules wouldn't 328 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 2: be willing or able to stop them, Or were they 329 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 2: hoping for a confrontation. Whatever it was they expected, I 330 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 2: don't think it was bus loads of military police with 331 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 2: helicopters full of even more soldiers landing in nearby fields. 332 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 2: When they arrived in Caper at ten thirty am, the 333 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 2: entrance to the cemetery was blocked by state and local police. 334 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 2: The poor funeral home employee who got stuck driving the 335 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 2: hearse that day must have been fairly rattled by the 336 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,239 Speaker 2: whole experience. He was so surprised at the line of 337 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 2: officers that he stopped the hearse directly over the train 338 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 2: tracks as a freight train was approaching. By all accounts, 339 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 2: there were mere seconds and inches between this near miss 340 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 2: and an accident that would have rendered the whole thing moot. 341 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 2: When the train passed Cole stepped out of the hearse. 342 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 2: He wasn't wearing a Nazi uniform, just a plain black suit, 343 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 2: and he was clutching Rockwell's personal copy of Mind Komf 344 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 2: in his hands. The cemetery superintendent explained to him that 345 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 2: if they would all agree to remove their Nazi armbands 346 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 2: and Swastika lapel pens and put away the giant swastika wreaths, 347 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 2: they would be free to enter the cemetery and conduct 348 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 2: the funeral. As the cemetery superintendent is trying to negotiate 349 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 2: with this crowd to get them to take off their 350 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 2: Nazi armbands, reinforcements were already on their way. The Army 351 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 2: Provost Marshal Major General Carl Turner arrived by helicopter along 352 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: with dozens of military policemen and US marshals. So this 353 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: small crowd of maybe fifty Nazis was surrounded by dozens 354 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 2: of reporters, one hundred police officer, hundreds of curious spectators 355 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 2: milling around the edges, and the standoff that followed would 356 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 2: last six hours. Shortly after General Turner arrived, the first 357 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 2: arrest was made. He noticed that one of the soldiers 358 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 2: in uniform outside the cemetery. Gates hadn't arrived with him. 359 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 2: This soldier wasn't standing in line with the others. He 360 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 2: was chatting casually with the Nazis standing around the hearse. 361 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: Private first Class James de Witt told the general he'd 362 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 2: been granted emergency leave from his post at Fort Gordon 363 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 2: in Georgia to attend the funeral of a friend. General Turner, 364 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 2: who was also out of Fort Gordon, reactivated the soldier 365 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 2: on the spot, which is apparently a thing a general 366 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 2: can do, and had him taken into custody for violating 367 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: uniform regulations for the black armband he was wearing, and 368 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 2: for violating regulations prohibiting soldiers from participating in political demonstrations 369 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 2: in uniform. As military policeman dragged James de Witt away, 370 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: he shouted racial slurs at nearby black onlookers and threw 371 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 2: a Nazi salute for the news cameras. As he passed 372 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: a gaggle of reporters. He said, I'd like to take 373 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 2: this uniform off and throw it away. The military stinks 374 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 2: and I'm ashamed to be a part of it. It 375 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 2: turned out that de Witt had not been granted leave. 376 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 2: He was a wall from Fort Gordon. He'd enlisted in 377 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 2: the Army a yar year earlier, but he'd been a 378 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 2: member of the American Nazi Party for two years. For 379 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 2: another hour or so, everyone just stood there at the 380 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 2: cemetery gates, waiting for someone else to break The funeral 381 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 2: scheduled start time of eleven am came and went around noon. 382 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 2: The Nazis were getting antsy. I wonder if they forgot 383 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 2: to pack lunches. The exact sequence of events is different 384 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 2: in almost every single account I could find, even the 385 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 2: archival video footage I found this strange fifteen minutes of 386 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 2: TV news b roll looks like it was cut together 387 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 2: out of order. I wish I could have gotten my 388 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: hands on a copy of the Army's after action report, 389 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 2: because I think that would have helped pin down the specifics. 390 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 2: I know the report exists. It's referenced in a footnote 391 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 2: in a book about the use of the military and 392 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 2: domestic disorders in the twentieth century published by the Army's 393 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 2: Center for Military History, But I couldn't find any trace 394 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 2: of the actual report. So, in the absence of certainty, 395 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 2: here's my best guess at piecing together thirty different reporters recollections. 396 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 2: One thing I found in that compilation of TV news 397 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 2: footage that I didn't actually find written up in any 398 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 2: of the reporting is this odd exchange between General Turner 399 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: and a man I recognize in the footage as Douglas Niles. 400 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 5: Charge will react, I have no idea a federal arrest. 401 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 3: I'm a federal arrest marshall, And will. 402 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 2: The charge be threat batter? 403 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 3: I don't know what it will mean. 404 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 2: If you can make it out over the helicopter noise. 405 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 2: That's Nazi funeral attendee and American Nazi Party member Douglas Niles, 406 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 2: and he's asking General Turner what someone might be charged 407 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 2: with if they did choose to disobey the orders of 408 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 2: the military police and attempt to enter the cemetery without 409 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 2: removing their swastikas. He didn't get a straight answer, but 410 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: he must have felt reasonably assured that it would be 411 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 2: something minor like trespassing, because he then made the decision 412 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 2: to escalate the situation again. I'm doing my best to 413 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 2: put these pieces in order, and this isn't in the 414 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 2: video I found, But according to a write up in 415 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 2: the Washington Daily News, the crowd gets rowdy. They're screaming 416 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 2: taunts at the officers and at General Turner in particular, 417 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: and Niles jumps up onto the hood of the hearse 418 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 2: and he's shouting, you ain't gonna stop me, you two 419 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 2: star communists, swine, let's go. And as he's standing there 420 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 2: on the hood of the hearse screaming at the General, 421 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 2: the hearse starts to roll slowly forward and it bumps 422 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 2: gently into the General. I don't know what Douglas Niles 423 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 2: thought would happen, but as he's lunging forward into the 424 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: line of military police, they just grab him and drag 425 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 2: him away. Christopher Vignyevitch seemed emboldened by this shift in 426 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: the energy of the crowd, and he tried to keep 427 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 2: the momentum going. If you're not keeping careful track of 428 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 2: all the side characters. Bidnyevitch was the twenty three year 429 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 2: old head of the American Nazi Party's Chicago office. He 430 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 2: immigrated to the United States as a child after his 431 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 2: father was executed for war crimes. He committed as a 432 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 2: Nazi collaborator in Croatia. He joined the American Nazi Party 433 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 2: as a teenager. He testified against John Patler in the 434 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 2: murder trial, and his testimony that Patler had made threatening 435 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 2: comments about Rockwell in the months before the murder was 436 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 2: seen as particularly convincing evidence by an appeals court. At 437 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 2: Rockwell's funeral, Bidnyevitch was one of just six mourners who 438 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 2: arrived dressed in a full Nazi uniform. He was to 439 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 2: be one of the pallbearers, and so as Doug Niles 440 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 2: is being hauled off by the military policeman, Vidnyevitch now 441 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 2: jumps up onto the hearse and he's standing on the 442 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 2: roof of the v vehicle shouting, you see what the 443 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 2: Jews are doing. They're keeping us out of here. It's 444 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: Jewish power. What we need is white power. And after 445 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 2: he whips the crowd into a frenzy with a couple 446 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 2: of sieguiles and a couple of Hyle Hitler's, vin Yevitch 447 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 2: jumped down from the hearse and charged directly into the 448 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 2: line of military policemen. I think he thought everyone was 449 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 2: behind him, but they weren't. As he was being taken 450 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 2: into custody, a single Nazi half heartedly broke ranks and 451 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 2: tried to follow him. Mike Stewart is listed in the 452 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 2: newspaper as being sixteen or seventeen years old, and it 453 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 2: says that he lives with a guardian in Spotslovania County, 454 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 2: although he'd been arrested at a Nazi Party rally in 455 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 2: Chicago a year earlier, and in nineteen sixty six he 456 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 2: told police he was eighteen. An issue of the party's 457 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 2: magazine says Stewart had been living at the party's printing 458 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 2: facility in Spotsylvania for six months, having transferred from the 459 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 2: Chicago office. How old he actually was at the time 460 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 2: of either arrest isn't clear, but it does seem likely 461 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 2: that he was a miner, and you have to wonder 462 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 2: if his parents knew where he was, if they knew 463 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: he was living in a converted hen house under the 464 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 2: supervision of a couple of middle aged Nazis. After that 465 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: flurry of arrests, the crowd quieted down again. Matias Cole, 466 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 2: who'd been sitting inside of the hearse for most of 467 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 2: the morning, got out and had a private meeting with 468 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 2: General Turner in a nearby maintenance shed. The Army's position 469 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 2: had not changed. They could hold the funeral if they 470 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 2: could follow the rules, if they took off the swastikas. 471 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: They would be allowed to enter the cemetery and bury 472 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 2: Rockwell in the open grave that was waiting for him. 473 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 2: If they were dead set on keeping the swastikas on, 474 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 2: they would not be allowed pass the gates. But they 475 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,479 Speaker 2: were running out of time to decide if they were 476 00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 2: willing to compromise. The grave diggers shift ended at fourth 477 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: thirty PM, and cemetery regulations don't allow a coffin to 478 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 2: sit in an open grave overnight. If they were going 479 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 2: to put him in the ground, they had to do 480 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 2: it before three point thirty to ensure there was enough 481 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,479 Speaker 2: time to fill the hole. When three point thirty rolled around, 482 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 2: nothing had changed. 483 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 4: Fifteen managed to comply with the instructions and the regulations 484 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 4: prescribed for burial at this ceremony. It is now fifteen 485 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 4: thirty hours. 486 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 2: In William Schmaltz's biography of Rockwell, the exchange that followed 487 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 2: is written to be much more dramatic than I think 488 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: it really was. General Turner reiterates the requirements for burial, 489 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 2: and Schmaltz includes Cole's reply in the form of a 490 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 2: direct quote, and the quote is verbatim correct, but in 491 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 2: the book he puts exclamation points in it, and he 492 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 2: wrote that Cole was shouting when he replied. The video, though, 493 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:08,479 Speaker 2: does not show a bombastic, defiant Nazi leader. It's a weary, 494 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 2: defeated man. 495 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: The body cannot be brought in under those circumstances. I 496 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: will have remained custodian of the body wherever it may 497 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: be with or cheered, but I cannot allow it to 498 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: be buried against the express wishes of matter Rockland. 499 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 2: At three thirty, General Turner gave them fifteen minutes, and 500 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 2: that deadline came and went. The Nazis did nothing with 501 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: their last fifteen minutes. 502 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 3: The Department of Army has withdrawn approval for the burial 503 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 3: of George Lincoln Rockwell in this cemetery. 504 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 2: At three forty five, the General announced that the Army 505 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 2: had withdrawn its approval for the burial. If they wanted 506 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 2: to bury Rockwell in a national cemetery, they couldn't do 507 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 2: it today and they would have to apply for a 508 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 2: new burial permit. For a funeral on another day, a 509 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 2: Culpeper County Justice of the Peace grabbed the bullhorn and 510 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: announced to the crowd that there would be no funeral 511 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 2: here today, and he told everyone to go home, and 512 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 2: remarkably they did. The whole day can really only be 513 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 2: described as weird. I'm not just saying that because that's 514 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 2: in the name of the show. It really was the 515 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 2: only word people could think of to describe what they 516 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 2: had seen that day. The Associated Press story about the 517 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 2: whole affair appeared in newspapers across the country, but with 518 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 2: slightly different headlines from paper to paper, headlines like Rockwell 519 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 2: unburied after end of weird day in Culpeper, Nazi unburied 520 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 2: after a weird day. Rockwell would have liked his weird 521 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 2: Nazi funeral weird performance rockwell burial delayed his unfinished funeral 522 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 2: weird scene. I think my favorite one of these headlines 523 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:27,320 Speaker 2: is Rockwell's non funeral weird event. Newspaper editors everywhere agreed 524 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 2: that shit was weird. Defeated, the Nazis drove the hour 525 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 2: and a half back to Arlington with the commander's corpse. 526 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 2: James DeWitt, the young soldier arrested while absent without leave, 527 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 2: was taken into military custody. After a hearing the following week, 528 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 2: he was demoted to private and given forty five days 529 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 2: of extra duty. Christopher Vidnyevitch, Douglas Niles, and Michael Stewart 530 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 2: were taken into federal custody after their arrests for disorderly conduct, 531 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 2: but Stuart's charges were dropped because he was a minor. 532 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,479 Speaker 2: Niles and Vignevitch were both eventually convicted, but the court 533 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 2: declined to impose any jail sentence because quote, they were 534 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 2: emotionally upset and had not intended to cause any trouble. 535 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 2: After the standoff in Culpemper, Rockwell's brother made another attempt 536 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 2: to gain custody of the remains, but he told reporters, quote, 537 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 2: Unfortunately they beat us to it. The Nazi Party had 538 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 2: already cremated him. George Lincoln Rockwell was cremated the morning 539 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,439 Speaker 2: after the failed burial, but the fight didn't end there. 540 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 2: By the end of the day Wednesday, the American Nazi 541 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 2: Party had retained council from the American Civil Liberties Union, 542 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,959 Speaker 2: and the ACLU said they planned to seek a court 543 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 2: injunction to force the Army to allow the Nazis to 544 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 2: interur Rockwell's ashes at the National Cemetery, accompanied by a 545 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 2: service that included their Nazi paraphernalia. Their attorney Philippershkopp sent 546 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 2: a letter to the Secretary of the Army in early September. 547 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 2: He offered his personal assurances that the ceremony would be 548 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 2: no more than forty five minutes and any music played 549 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,839 Speaker 2: would be at a volume low enough that it would 550 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 2: only be audible to those at the gravesite. But they 551 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 2: wanted to wear their outfits. Secretary Stanley Rezor replied weeks 552 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: later the Army's position had not changed. No Nazi uniforms, 553 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 2: no Nazi flags, no Nazi banners, no swastik la pel pins. 554 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 2: If they're willing to follow the rules, they can apply 555 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 2: for a new burial permit and that's it. So the 556 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 2: Nazis filed a lawsuit in federal court. They wouldn't settle 557 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,959 Speaker 2: for anything less than a spectacle. It was, I think, 558 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,280 Speaker 2: in a way, a genuine attempt to give George Lincoln 559 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 2: Rockwell what he would have wanted, But not in the 560 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 2: way you might think. I don't mean that. I think 561 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 2: he cared really about the specifics of how his body 562 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 2: ended up in the ground, about what his funeral would 563 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 2: look like, Not really, But I think he would have 564 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,839 Speaker 2: loved to know that, even in death, he could still 565 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 2: cause a riot. He'd lived for wasting people's time and 566 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 2: subjecting people to spectacle and getting headlines and newspapers for 567 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 2: some silly stunt or another. It's what he lived for. 568 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 2: Why shouldn't he have a little more in death. The 569 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 2: lawsuit argued that not only was the decision to bar 570 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 2: the funeral attendees from displaying certain symbols blatantly unconstitutional prior 571 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,439 Speaker 2: restraint of their free speech, it was a clear case 572 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 2: of discrimination against Nazi specifically, as other types of symbols 573 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 2: half been or probably would be allowed. The order dismissing 574 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,879 Speaker 2: the suit ruled that it wasn't discriminatory and they had 575 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 2: no constitutional right to espouse a political philosophy as part 576 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 2: of a burial in a national cemetery. Now, obviously, this 577 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 2: case was filed in nineteen sixty and decided in nineteen 578 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 2: sixty nine, so any cases that came after it aren't 579 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 2: really relevant when we're talking about the context of the 580 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 2: original decision. But I did a little poking around anyway, 581 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 2: and the majority of the cases involving free speech and 582 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 2: cemeteries are about people protesting and picketing at or near funerals, 583 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 2: not so much about the speech of the people organizing 584 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,240 Speaker 2: the funeral, But either way, generally courts tend to hold 585 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 2: the cemetery is not a public forum. The government can 586 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 2: impose content neutral restrictions on free expression in a non 587 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 2: public forum as compared to a public forum places like 588 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 2: the sidewalk or designated or limited public forums like city 589 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 2: hall or a meeting room at a public university. You 590 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 2: cannot to this day hold a political demonstration of any 591 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 2: kind in places like Arlington National Cemetery. That would be 592 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 2: an outrage and a scandal, and it was for a 593 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 2: few weeks in the news when Donald Trump made a 594 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 2: partisan speech at a ceremony at Arlington. The current version 595 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 2: of the Code of Federal Regulations and the United States 596 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 2: Code contain explicit prohibitions on demonstrations and disruptions at national 597 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 2: military cemeteries. But again, most of these rules are aimed 598 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 2: at people protesting a funeral. It's hard to apply those 599 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 2: guidelines to people using the funeral itself as a political demonstration. 600 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 2: But that same Code of Federal Regulations also explicitly prohibits 601 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 2: the display of banners, placards, and flags other than the 602 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 2: American flag. I spent an inordinate amount of time cracking 603 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 2: down every quarterly issue of the Federal Register from the 604 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 2: late nineteen sixties. And I can tell you it does 605 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 2: appear that they added this section to the Code of 606 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 2: Federal res Regulations in nineteen sixty nine, which means it 607 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 2: was almost certainly specifically because of this incident. Obviously, you 608 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 2: can't apply rules that were written after the fact, But 609 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 2: just because the rules weren't in the Code of Federal 610 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 2: Regulations doesn't mean there weren't rules. There were rules in 611 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,320 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven. According to the court order dismissing the lawsuit, 612 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 2: the approved rules governing the operation, maintenance and burials in 613 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 2: National cemeteries are found in the Army Technical Manual. A 614 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 2: portion of that manual is included in some of the 615 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 2: court records. And the rules are very specific about flags. 616 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 2: There's a flag in the cemetery, but there aren't any 617 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 2: other flags. There are no flags allowed on graves. There 618 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 2: are no flags at grave sites. With a singular exception. 619 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 2: A small American flag is placed on each grave on 620 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 2: the business day before Memorial Day and removed on the 621 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 2: business day following Memorial Day, unless it is wet, in 622 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 2: which case it is left in place until it is 623 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 2: dry Confederate flags may be placed in the same location 624 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 2: during the same time periods at private expense. That's it. 625 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 2: There's no other flags. And according to that court opinion, 626 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 2: that same Army manual already prohibited political demonstrations at national cemeteries, 627 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 2: and it prohibited the use of any foreign flag except 628 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 2: during specially permitted flag ceremonies. The judge didn't specifically use 629 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 2: the language of a public first non public forum, but 630 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 2: I think it's pretty well implied in the opinion quote. 631 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 2: The record here made conclusively discloses that it was the 632 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,720 Speaker 2: intent of the American Nazi Party to dramatize their political 633 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,320 Speaker 2: philosophy by wearing their Nazi style uniforms together with combat 634 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 2: boots and displaying their banners and flags during the burial 635 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 2: of their former leader. Cemetery is a public place so 636 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 2: clearly committed to other purposes that their use for the 637 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 2: airing of grievances is anomalous. The Secretary of the Army 638 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 2: was plainly right in refusing to permit the American Nazi 639 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,280 Speaker 2: Party to use the Culpeper National Cemetery as a base 640 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:20,479 Speaker 2: for the symbolic dissemination of their political philosophy. No one's 641 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 2: saying they can't wear Nazi armbands. They do it all 642 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 2: the time. They've marched in cities across the country. They've 643 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 2: fought this battle and they've won it. They can march 644 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,720 Speaker 2: around this way if they want to, but they can't 645 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 2: do it in an army national cemetery. And it's not 646 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 2: just Nazis. No one can demonstrate in those spaces because 647 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 2: they are not a public forum for the airing of 648 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:48,479 Speaker 2: free expression. The ACLU appealed the decision to the Fourth 649 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,919 Speaker 2: Circuit Court of Appeals. The appeals court affirmed the lower 650 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 2: court opinion without writing an opinion of their own, and 651 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,839 Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy the Supreme Court declined to hear the 652 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 2: case after losing the legal battle to inter Rockwell's ashes 653 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 2: at the National Cemetery. They never interred them anywhere at all. 654 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 2: They didn't give him back to his family or to 655 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 2: either of his ex wives who were raising his children. 656 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 2: They didn't bury him somewhere meaningful to him or scatter 657 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,279 Speaker 2: him to the winds. Mattias Cole packed him up into 658 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 2: a little white urn and put it on display. When 659 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,760 Speaker 2: the Nazis left Virginia for the Midwest and the nineteen eighties, 660 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 2: Rockwall's ashes went with them. Mattius Cole died in twenty fourteen. 661 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 2: The New Order, the name he'd picked when he rebranded 662 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 2: the party again in the eighties, was left to the 663 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 2: leadership of Martin Kerr, that old man who held a 664 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 2: memorial for Rockwell next to a trash can in twenty seventeen. 665 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 2: He was asked at the time whatever became of Rockwell's remains, 666 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:55,839 Speaker 2: but he declined to say any more than that they 667 00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 2: were in an urn in a secure location. He's trying 668 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,359 Speaker 2: to be mysterious, maybe to let you imagine that maybe 669 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 2: the ashes were somewhere in a place of great honor. 670 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 2: But the urn is almost certainly at his house in 671 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:16,160 Speaker 2: New Berlin, a suburb outside of Milwaukee. Earlier this year, 672 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,720 Speaker 2: an admirer posted a video he took of the shrine 673 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,880 Speaker 2: when he made a pilgrimage to Wisconsin to visit Rockwell's remains. 674 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 2: It's just a little white box sitting in the center 675 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 2: of a slightly rumpled Nazi flag arranged in a semi 676 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,920 Speaker 2: circle around the ashes. There are two little tea light 677 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:38,440 Speaker 2: candles and what I can only call the Nazi equivalent 678 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 2: of holy relics. Rockwell's corn cob pipe, the wedding rings 679 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:50,720 Speaker 2: from his failed marriages, his aviator, sunglasses, and his watch. 680 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,439 Speaker 2: In the video, this visitor picks up Rockwell's corn cob 681 00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 2: pipe and he handles it with a religious rever rents. 682 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,760 Speaker 2: He lifts it up towards his face, which you never see, 683 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:11,800 Speaker 2: and inhales deeply trying to smell the Commander. George Lincoln 684 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 2: Rockwell died alone in a parking lot, murdered by his 685 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 2: closest friend. His loyal followers stole his body from his 686 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,760 Speaker 2: family and turned his funeral into a side show. Now 687 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,320 Speaker 2: decades later, his urn collects dust on a shabby little altar, 688 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 2: mostly forgotten. Weird Little Guys is a production of Cool 689 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,680 Speaker 2: Zoe Media and iHeartRadio. It's research, written and recorded by 690 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,800 Speaker 2: me while I hunger. Our executive producers are Sophie Lieutterman 691 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 2: and Robert Evans. This show is edited by the wildly 692 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,879 Speaker 2: talented Rory Gagan, although I think this week it may 693 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,319 Speaker 2: be the equally talented Ian Johnson. The theme music was 694 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 2: composed by Brad Dickert. You can email me at Weird 695 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 2: Little Guys podcast at gmail dot com. I will definitely 696 00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 2: read it, but I probably won't answer. It's nothing personal. 697 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 2: You can exchange conspiracy theories about the show with other 698 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 2: listeners on the Weird Little Guys subreddit. Just please don't 699 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 2: post anything that's going to make you one of my 700 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 2: Weird Little Guys.