WEBVTT - S14, Ep10 | The Corruption of COP 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:06.720 Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. In 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.840 a little under a week the annual UN Climate Summit, 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.480 the Conference of the Parties. It's called that because these 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.920 are all of the people who are party to the 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:22.960 UN Framework Convention on Climate Change or the unf Triple C, 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:25.880 and they meet every year to talk about what their 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:28.319 governments are going to do about climate change. This is 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:33.040 year thirty and I think it's fair to say that 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:38.159 this process is facing a real crisis of legitimacy at 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:42.040 the moment. This year, the US government has barred any 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:46.120 of its officials from attending to negotiate, so that should 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:50.000 be interesting. For the last couple of years, the gloves 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:52.720 have been completely off when it comes to fossil fuel 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.400 executives being involved in this process. 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:58.160 We had first COP. 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:01.200 Twenty eight in Abu Dhabi, where the president of the 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.360 national oil company was also the President of the Climate Summit, 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:09.040 and then last year in Baku in Azerbaijan, where similarly, 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:11.959 loads of folks involved in the petroleum business were part 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:15.759 of the COP organizing committee and there were just blatant 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.960 oil deals happening all over the conference. This year's COP 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:23.880 is being held in the Brazilian Amazon, which is quite interesting, 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:28.600 and the Brazilian government and the conference organizing committee have 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:33.560 really made a commitment to information integrity around climate. They 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:37.240 want to highlight this issue. They would like to see 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:41.440 something around information integrity actually being adopted into the final 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:46.399 commitments coming out of this COP and they have made 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.560 a big commitment to keeping things like climate denial out 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:52.240 of this conference. However, as we know on this show, 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:55.400 there are lots of different ways that disinformation can make 0:01:55.440 --> 0:02:00.080 its way into climate conversations, and what we're going to 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.559 talk about today is the way that climate obstruction makes 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:07.520 its way into international negotiations. So not just the cop 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.560 but also the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.240 These are not, you know, super. 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:18.480 Objective, uncorrupted and uncorruptible processes, as much as they are 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.399 often described that way, and as much as we might 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:25.640 like for them to be. So today a very interesting 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:30.360 conversation with Kerrie Duprick from University of Geneva and Eduardo 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:35.519 Viola from the Institute of International Relations in Brazil about 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:40.760 how climate obstruction shows up in international negotiations. That conversation 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:47.400 is coming up after this quick break. 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.640 I'm going to start with the very very basics, which 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:03.520 is to have you guys define for people what is 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:08.040 the UN Framework conventioned on Climate Change and the Inner 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.520 Governmental Panel on Climate Change and. 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.320 Why are we looking at these bodies for climate instruction. 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:18.280 The United Nations Frame or Convention on Climate Change is 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:24.320 the basic document, the foundational document of the climate regime. 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:27.640 The most important thing. 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:35.000 Is it settled the goal that humanity should reduce emissions 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:41.600 for avoiding dangerous climate change. This was very important document 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:47.280 signed in nineteen ninety two, was a very important example 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:52.280 of multilateralms at the end of the Cold War and 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:57.800 with the optimistic spirit, let's say, of great potential of 0:03:58.440 --> 0:03:59.560 human collaboration. 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:05.120 Gay and we have the unit to policy because the IPCC, 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:10.080 the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, was established in nineteen 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:15.720 eighty eight before the unf T policy was established to 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:22.400 build the case scientifically for an international climate negotiations. And 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:28.599 since the nineties, the IPCC has been producing main assessment reports. 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:33.919 So now we are entering the seventh assessment cycle and 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:38.800 all those reports and assessments have been the scientific basis 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.839 of the negotiations. That's why the IPCC does play a 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.840 key role in how we understand the climate problems as 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:49.440 well as the solutions. It's being discussed a lot in 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:53.440 the negotiations and that's why we also wanted to include 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:58.000 it because it's quite related and we often see that 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:03.480 many of the x spirts, the government representatives, they actually 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.680 travel from IPCC to n f T COOCY meeting, so 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:10.760 there is a clear connection and links between those two institutions. 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:15.000 Great, okay, and you mentioned in the chapter that there's 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:18.159 only kind of recently been research that's laid out of 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:21.800 framework for looking at obstruction in the unf Triple C. 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:24.360 Can you say a little bit more about that. What 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.200 is that research and what is the framework for looking 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:27.960 at obstruction? 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:33.679 So there has been already quite some research on climate 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:38.760 obstruction in the unf tpolcy by Johanna Deeblett, for instance, 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:43.760 but they were focusing on some specific countries. And what 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:47.640 we've seen with the publication recently by Danie Lee Phelson 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:52.160 and her colleagues is these kind of first attempts at 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:57.680 having a comprehensive framework of what climate obstruction means in 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.400 the unf T policy and in their paper publishing Global 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:08.520 Environmental Politics, they do identify four different main ways to 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:14.640 do obstruction, one being limiting the scope of an issue, 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:19.279 whether it's being only discussed within a dialogue, whether it's 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:23.880 going to lead to some decisions that parties are supposed 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:27.359 to take into account. We have also the question of 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:31.600 reducing transparency in terms of how much data is available 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:36.039 to understand a specific problem. Knowing that the authors actually 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.640 use the case of loss and damage in their study. 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.480 We have also questions around manipulating language. How are we 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.680 going to define and speak about loss in damage? And 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:53.960 for instance, there is this interesting case in the negotiations 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:58.120 where the negotiations with use and speak of loss and 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:03.960 damage in the same and with capital letters, whereas in 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.520 the IPCC and in some of the technical discussions in 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:12.400 the UNFTY policy they well mentioned losses and damages, so 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:18.240 using the plural and lower cases. And the final element 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:24.040 is the question of promoting non transformative solutions, so solutions 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:30.400 that do not necessarily question the structural aspects and reasons 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:34.680 that are responsible for the climate crisis we're in. 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:39.960 Yeah, I would like to add the kind of more 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.400 structural dimension of the struct that is, what are the 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:50.040 basis of the behavior of states, And it's a lot 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:56.320 related to some strong structural dimasion, like for example, the 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:03.239 carbon intensity of their economists, the share of global carbon issues, 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:10.280 the capita emissions, the dependence of their economists of fossive fuels. 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:15.560 So those issues are not a matter of negotiation, but 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:21.600 they shape the behavior of most the states, not all 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:25.880 the states, but most the states. And so there is 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:30.760 is always present in the negotiation that the states don't 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:32.320 want to do. 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:37.040 For example, if they have high carbon. 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:40.880 Intensity in their economy, don't want to reduce the carbon intensity, 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:45.280 or if they have a trajectory of growing carbon emissions, 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:49.400 they don't want to diminish a growing trajectory of their 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:51.080 carbonymission and so on. 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.440 Right, and that comes up in the IPCC as well. 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:58.400 Right that they the higher well at least the fossil 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:02.360 fuel producers or the bigger agg producers tend to bring 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.840 those issues in at the IPCC level as well, Right, 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.839 not just at the cops for. 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:13.800 Both, yes, totally and maybe to name a few what 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.000 we have seen from different studies, I mean, we have 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:21.600 the usual suspects like Saudi Arabia offerens, and there has 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.200 been a lot of work on how the SODIA is 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:29.160 trying to obstruct the deliberations within the UNFT policy and 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:33.640 the IPCC. But we have also seen, notably around questions 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:38.120 of loss and damage equity issues, the United States as 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:42.200 well European countries also being more and more critical about 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:46.800 acknowledging what it means to take seriously, especially financially, what 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:51.080 it means to take loss and damage and compensation seriously. 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:55.120 But we have also seen global seuce countries as well 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.760 and Edward who probably knows better, but also countries like 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:05.520 China India also tend to try to put more emphasis 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:11.120 on their right to development, not acknowledging that today they 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:15.800 also are big economies and also put out far more 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:17.400 than they did ten years ago. 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:20.800 M yeah, Actually, I wanted to ask you to define 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:27.160 the principle of common but differentiated responsibility and respective capabilities. 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.080 Can you define what that means and how it gets 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:34.120 leveraged in these negotiations and IBCC. 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:40.400 I mean, this is a key thriller of the Rio Convention, 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:46.240 but it is vague, okay, and depart from dividing the 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.680 world in a very simplified world develop the countries and 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:55.800 developing countries okay, And so it doesn't caused that developing 0:10:55.840 --> 0:11:00.960 countries are extremely stratified. I mean in terms of capital income. 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:05.280 So this is one of the problems of the Rio 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:10.679 Convention that this has not used the classification of countries 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:15.520 of the World Bank that is much better, much sophistical, 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:20.600 and classify the countries in four levels high income, high 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:24.200 mid the Lincoln, low middle Lincoln, and low income. 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.520 Okay, So one problem with. 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:32.200 This principle is how high mid the Lincoln countries use 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:38.760 being in the category of developing countries for avoiding tanking 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:43.680 significant responsibilities. Okay, but the principle say that everybody is 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:50.120 responsible for climate change, but some countries are more responsible, 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.560 and some countries have the obligation. The countries that are 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:59.000 more responsible that have produced historically the idea historically is 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:03.319 the data well, a lot of things remained vague, so 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.080 the interpretation of the principle became. 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:11.160 A major role in the dynamic of the convege. 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:15.200 In my view, this is one of the weakest port 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:19.280 not the principle, but the fact that there was not 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:24.439 a more complex classification of developing countries. 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.480 What we can also add is that the signature of 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:32.640 the Various agreement in twenty fifteen kind of changed a bit. 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:39.800 How CIBI there is being interpreted and discussed because it 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:43.520 adds in the light of national circumstances. And that's kind 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:47.720 of supposed another of those very vague expressions that you 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:51.120 find in the Paris Agreement and in the unit people see, 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:56.280 But it is supposed to highlight the fact that some 0:12:56.559 --> 0:13:00.960 economies now in some countries do play a big role 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:05.840 in how much they emit, and especially emerging countries, and 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.400 that's supposed to be a sign to bring them on 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:13.319 board also to take ambitious actions. So it's an time 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:18.760 to try to add another layer of differentiation in the 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.880 unif people see. But knowing that it's still very contested 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:27.000 and still today being discussed a lot in the negotiations. 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:28.680 I wanted to ask you more about that as well, 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.040 because there was that change, and there were a few 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:36.040 other kind of key changes and the Pairents agreement that 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.040 shifted things a little bit. So I was hoping you 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:42.160 could talk about that. You mentioned like this difference around 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.720 developing countries, but I know there was also a hybrid 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:51.040 and multilateralism saying introduced and kind of bringing Nansen actors 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.320 in more So I wonder if you could talk a 0:13:53.320 --> 0:14:00.120 bit about how Paris changed the negotiations and also the 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:01.960 pathways to obstruction. 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:07.840 Of the Paricis linion is a product of the failure 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:13.800 of the reform of the Kyoto Protocol. The Kyoto Protocol 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:19.360 settled a kind of mandatory goals of reduction emission for 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:25.000 developer countis okay, So the Kyoto Protocol was basing the 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:30.640 idea of precision in relation to the obligations of developer counts, 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:33.960 but not in relation to developing county of course. So 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.480 what happened is that at the time of the reform 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.640 of the Kyoto Protocol, there was an idea that the 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:46.680 principle of mandatory, the principle of having mandatory goals should 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.840 be extended to all kinds of course, very different kind 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:54.520 of mandator according to their capita income and kappabis, let's say. 0:14:54.920 --> 0:15:00.480 But this fail, okay for many reasons, and so the 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:05.400 party's agreement was the kind of second best in relation 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:11.040 to something a strong agreement. At the same time, it's 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:15.800 the principle that bought on up. Each country says what 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:20.240 I can't do, and I will implement, and there is 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.880 no idea of any punishment if you don't implement. 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.119 Significant punishment. Okay. 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:31.240 That it wasn't the Guiodo Protocol, but was for didn't 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:32.760 have enough teath anyway. 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:37.160 So from this point of view, this is a major change. 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:43.040 It's universal that any country had obligations, but the obligations 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:49.400 are defined by each country according to whatever criteria, okay, 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:54.960 and these obligations are not mandatory. There we are attempts 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:59.000 of saying, okay, these are the goals, should be mandatory, 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.960 should be legal eviding, okay, But there was the strong 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:07.680 opposition of the United States and the India to this 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:12.000 kind of Well, India is more complex, okay, but the 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:17.080 United States not because of the not necessarily the Obama 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:21.680 administration was agaged, but the Obama administration was saying and 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.720 we all knew that to pass in the American Senate, 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:31.400 any treaty that had legally binding goals of reduction emissions 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:34.960 would not pass that the Americans read that is very 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:39.640 difficult to pass any international treaty in the American Senate historically. 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:44.840 And on your point on the role of non state actors, 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.840 I think that's also an important shift that we saw 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:53.240 with the signature of the Paris Agreement, where we knew 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:59.800 why negotiating the treaty that adding up the voluntary commitments 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:05.760 by countries wouldn't lead us to limit the global warming 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:10.080 to two degree or one point five. That's what is 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:16.280 being called the emission gap. And the idea was that 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:22.640 this emission gap could be reduced by giving non stead actors, 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:26.360 and especially if you see the private sector a bigger 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:30.880 role in the transition. That that's why with the Paris Agreement, 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:36.040 we have these whole discussions around hybrid multilateralism, about orchestration 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:39.879 of the action of non state actors to try to 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:44.280 reduce this emission gap in a context in which in 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:48.159 the past the private sector was kind of more like 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:53.719 either opposed or in favor of a treaty of the 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:58.080 pure protocol notably. But then we so really changes around 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:01.760 the Paris Agreement, with the private sectors and the industry 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.119 wanting to play also a bigger role and also not 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.720 only at the national level but also internationally to bring 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.360 up and to have this kind of bigger dialogue and 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:16.280 initiatives being also discussed at the multilateral level. 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:19.600 So you mentioned in this chapter, and we talked a 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.880 little bit about it already, but the sort of operations 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:25.440 of the unf tripleC. 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:30.760 And the IPCC and how those enable or empower obstruction 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.200 and I was hoping you could talk about that a 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.560 little bit. Just what are some of the ways that 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:42.000 these organizations are set up to allow obstruction. 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.040 I can start and mentioned two and then Eduardo can 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.840 jump in any time. I think first, there is the 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:56.040 question of access and participation to both the IPCC and 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:01.960 UNF tripleC. In the sense that even so everyone like 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:06.080 every representative of a country is welcome to participate and 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.920 be part of those institutions, it does require quite a 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:15.080 lot of resources human resources but also financial resources. For 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:19.320 the IPCC, it also means quite a lot of epistemic 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.080 resources being able to understand the very technical discussions that 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.800 go on in the IPCC. And that does mean because 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:32.560 they are huge a symmetries and structural asim trees between countries, 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:36.399 that does mean that often those who have the most 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:41.000 capacities are also the most represented in those institutions because 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:45.399 they can send more delegates, they can also stay overnight, 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:49.280 they can stay longer if the negotiations do not finish 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.919 on time, and so abcy that makes them have bigger 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:58.119 influence on what's going on in those institutions. And the 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:02.080 second I think is and that's also similar, and it's 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.200 a practice and procedure in both institutions. The fact that 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:10.320 decisions are taken by consensus, which means that every country 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.359 has a say and a voice and can at any 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:17.480 time oppose a decision, pose an agreement, which means that 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.639 everything has to be made to try to find a 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:25.000 compromise to get them on board. And that gives some countries, 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:28.280 and especially those countries who wants to do obstruction also 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:33.119 a big leeway and a big way to kind of 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:36.800 really try to slow down the debate or have their 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:40.119 views reflected in some of those documents negotiated. 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:45.600 Yeah, this is actually the idea of the consensus is 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:50.119 one of the major vulnerabilities of the convention and the 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:53.560 whole history of the trilogy. Okay, so that it is 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.960 just one country, and particular is it is a country 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:02.400 with some power, even doesn't mean to be strong. 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:09.920 This power you can diminish. What is the agreement. So 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:14.639 this is the idea that the consensus give the negotiation to. 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:19.879 The final decision of minimal common common de nominate, meaning 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:24.720 the minimal ambition for fighting global war. 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:28.560 When I was reading this chapter, especially this part about 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:34.960 how access and resources really come to play in the IPCC, 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:38.240 and the unittriblecy. It also made me think about the 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:41.320 academic research and the funding of it, and how much 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:45.680 more industry funding there is for that research in some 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:50.080 countries than others, and I wonder how much that comes 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:54.080 into play as an obstruction tactic as well. 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:59.280 Yeah, that's a difficult question because the IPCC is not 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:04.960 being funded by the private sector, is being funded by 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:09.520 the governments on a voluntary basis. But it's true that 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:14.000 in the selection of the authors, it's possible because it's 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:17.400 being done based on the list provided by governments, it's 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:23.199 possible to have authors who have been working for fossil 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.960 fuel companies. We know, for instance, of authors from Excellent 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:32.879 Mobile or Saudi Aramco. We been authors in some of 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:39.080 the IPCC assessments, and I wouldn't say it's necessarily because 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:42.840 of them that we have this kind of openness to 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:49.120 carbon capturing storage or carbon dioxide removal, which has been 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:54.480 documented in the last reports. I think in general, the 0:22:54.600 --> 0:23:00.439 IPCC also wants to work very closely with the private 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:03.320 sector and also once and it's part of a bigger 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:07.240 narrative in which nonstate actors and the private sector does 0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:10.720 play a big role in providing the solution. So it's 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:14.359 it's really part of a bigger change, and that's what 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:17.679 the I think the interesting point the IPCC was kind 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:20.879 of said, Okay, let's let's have closer links. And we 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:24.520 know from the previous president Hosson Lee for instance, was 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:30.040 really open to having greater dialogues and input from from 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:34.960 the big business industry, and so that might be one 0:23:35.040 --> 0:23:38.840 of the reasons, through the leadership of the IPCC, through 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:43.560 the authors who are being part of the report, that 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:50.840 we tend to give those technologies big roles in the transition. 0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:55.360 Even though it's been criticized a lot. IPCC is aware 0:23:55.480 --> 0:23:58.880 of that. There have been discussions about how to also 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:03.639 show some of the negative impacts two technologies can have, 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:09.119 notably on biodiversity for instance, or water security. 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:11.160 Yeah. 0:24:11.560 --> 0:24:16.960 Interesting, Okay, can we talk about which countries are the 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:21.040 biggest problem, which countries are the big instructors? We know 0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:24.360 the United States, so we can talk about the United 0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:27.520 States more for sure, But what are the big instructors? 0:24:27.640 --> 0:24:30.280 You mentioned them in this chapter, and I'd like to 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:33.760 have you kind of list them and then give some 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:36.639 examples of the kinds of things that they do to 0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:40.160 obstruct at the international level. 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:46.880 Yeah, So I guess the most obvious one, the most 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:50.280 that has been discussed a lot in the literature also 0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:54.680 in media reporting is Saudi Arabia, because Soudia Arabia is 0:24:54.960 --> 0:25:00.840 very open and in a way and very like not 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:06.359 deranged or not posing Saudi Arabia or problem of being 0:25:06.800 --> 0:25:11.320 finger pointed as obstructing the negotiations and putting it it's veto. 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:13.920 I think it's even part of the DNA. It's part 0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:17.159 of the identity of the SODI delegation to have this 0:25:17.520 --> 0:25:24.600 very kind of aggressive, very forthcoming position and in the negotiations. 0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:28.240 So that's the kind of obvious one, I would say, 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:32.960 but in a way extremely well done. I mean, it's 0:25:33.040 --> 0:25:36.760 it's impressive to see the sod navigate the different rooms 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:40.160 and have their point of view being presented and listed 0:25:40.359 --> 0:25:43.120 in the discussion. So it's it's very effective and it's 0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:47.000 it's not something they are really thinking, I think, very 0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:52.080 clearly about how to organize themselves and how to influence 0:25:52.160 --> 0:25:57.240 the negotiations. The second one probably the biggest in a way, 0:25:57.400 --> 0:26:01.040 but it's the United States United States. I think the 0:26:01.119 --> 0:26:04.440 difference with the sodius that the United cares about it's 0:26:04.640 --> 0:26:09.359 about the public opinion. It cares about what people are 0:26:09.440 --> 0:26:13.080 going to say and see of the United States within 0:26:13.160 --> 0:26:16.720 the negotiations but also outside as wanting to have this 0:26:16.960 --> 0:26:21.080 kind of leadership role in the negotiation, even though in 0:26:21.240 --> 0:26:27.320 practice we know the United States has left and withdrew 0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:30.960 from the Kudo Protocol, from the Paris Agreement. Is a 0:26:31.119 --> 0:26:37.959 big opposer of historical responsibilities, which I think is obviously 0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:40.960 a very big problem given that we need to have 0:26:41.080 --> 0:26:46.560 ambitious but also just action. The United States also has 0:26:46.680 --> 0:26:50.040 been really opposing a lot of loss and damage discussions 0:26:50.080 --> 0:26:54.280 in the negotiations, really opposing any discussions in terms of 0:26:54.400 --> 0:26:58.240 reparation and compensation, and that's why it took so many 0:26:58.400 --> 0:27:02.560 decades to have the Lost Damage Fund established at COP 0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:03.200 twenty seven. 0:27:04.200 --> 0:27:09.120 There is a significantly difference between Republican and democratic administration, 0:27:09.600 --> 0:27:13.160 so in general speaking is in a country that produced 0:27:13.160 --> 0:27:17.159 a lot of obstruction even in democratic administration. But I 0:27:17.240 --> 0:27:23.680 mean the particularly Di Biden administration was the first time 0:27:23.760 --> 0:27:28.359 that the United State has really a climate police, because 0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:33.680 Obama didn't have it. Was take some measures by executive order, 0:27:33.800 --> 0:27:36.440 but didn't have a climate police. So we have a 0:27:36.480 --> 0:27:38.560 climate police in United sedy for the first time that 0:27:38.680 --> 0:27:44.000 is based in promoting renewable energy and energy, not in 0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:49.720 reducing emission, because this wouldn't have support in Congress. But anyway, 0:27:50.760 --> 0:27:54.040 the difference between the bide And administration and the second 0:27:54.080 --> 0:27:58.120 Tramp administration in terms of the impact in the global 0:27:58.240 --> 0:28:03.000 climate police is giant, I mean the impact of And 0:28:03.119 --> 0:28:05.560 this is one problem that is very important. We are 0:28:05.680 --> 0:28:11.280 now living in a world that's extremely conflicting, extremely based 0:28:11.440 --> 0:28:17.840 in the priority of art geopolitics considerations. Okay, in a 0:28:17.960 --> 0:28:21.720 well in which the military spending is growing a lot 0:28:22.280 --> 0:28:23.360 in most countries. 0:28:24.440 --> 0:28:28.919 And so the will in which we are now is somehow. 0:28:28.640 --> 0:28:31.720 The opposite of the world of ninety two when the 0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:35.560 Tridment regime was born, and even the world of twenty 0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:40.800 to fifteen when the Party's agreement was signed. So negotiations 0:28:40.880 --> 0:28:44.320 were always difficult for the reasons we have mentioned and 0:28:44.560 --> 0:28:50.400 are in the chapter. And now the negotiations have much 0:28:50.520 --> 0:28:55.960 more obstacles because of this new geopolitical and particularly now 0:28:56.120 --> 0:28:59.920 with the Trump administration that is not being in the agree. 0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:05.080 Women is impacting she's impact in a lot many countries. Okay, 0:29:05.640 --> 0:29:10.160 so openly or not so this is a consideration by 0:29:10.240 --> 0:29:13.400 the United States and I would say that another old 0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:17.560 stackle that has been that this has been important is 0:29:18.120 --> 0:29:19.719 the position of China. 0:29:20.000 --> 0:29:22.920 Until twenty fourteen, previous. 0:29:22.560 --> 0:29:28.240