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Speaker 1: We've returned with another classic episode for you. You guys

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Speaker 1: like wildlife refuges.

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Speaker 2: It's fine concept, do I do? Actually very much.

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Speaker 3: I think it's an important concept and, as we know,

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Speaker 3: something that probably we wouldn't even have if it weren't

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Speaker 3: for certain forward thinking founding fathers.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, The National park system or wildlife conservation areas of

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Speaker 1: the United States are pretty fascinating. This classic episode looks

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Speaker 1: at a wildlife refuge that was created in nineteen o

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Speaker 1: eight to protect one of your favorite things, migratory water fowl.

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Speaker 1: You know me so well, Ben, Yeah, sure, Ed. This

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Speaker 1: is as we'll see, This is a spark that leads

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Speaker 1: to a fire of ridiculous controversy.

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Speaker 3: Let's jump right in.

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio Nowadays. Here in

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Speaker 1: the States, national parks are national perks, or at least

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Speaker 1: they're considered that way. Do you like how that rhyme?

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Speaker 2: Noel?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like perks like like they're good? Yes, p e

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Speaker 3: r k s that's the wordplay?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Is there a different perks? I'm sorry, I need some

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Speaker 3: coffee to get perked up because we go. I'm kind

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Speaker 3: of fading right now. Oh and your band by the way.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the rumors are true. Of fellow ridiculous historians, we

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Speaker 1: hope you have found the podcast you were looking for.

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Speaker 1: With our super producer, Casey Pegram and most importantly with you,

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Speaker 1: specifically you, we have formed Ridiculous History. Today's episode is

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Speaker 1: about something that I think the three of us were

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Speaker 1: all pretty big fans of national parks.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're cool, they're so cool. Natural splendor in the

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Speaker 3: grass or the mountain.

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Speaker 1: The stream, Purple Mountain's majesty.

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Speaker 3: All that stuff. Super magistical. Have you seen a Hunt

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Speaker 3: for the Wilder People? I still have not watched it,

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Speaker 3: he says, magistical a lot. The kid that was in

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Speaker 3: Deadpool too, he's a Kiwi and he is a delight.

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Speaker 3: Watch that movie if you haven't seen hi Yah unrelated

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Speaker 3: total non sexual.

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Speaker 1: Oh but worth it, worth it because that also has

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Speaker 1: a lot of natural beauty in the story, right, exciting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's about a family that lives out on the

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Speaker 3: in the bush of New Zealand. And yeah, I imagine

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Speaker 3: they have some sort of system over there to designate

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Speaker 3: land to keep people from you know, messing it up,

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Speaker 3: mucking it about.

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Speaker 1: Right, Sure, even if only because of the Lord of

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Speaker 1: the Rings and but I always loved about growing up

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Speaker 1: here in the States was this preponderance of land wherein

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Speaker 1: you can just go camp, you can just go adventuring.

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Speaker 1: I know it's one of our mutual dreams to write

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Speaker 1: a burrow into the Grand Canyon.

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Speaker 3: We have discussed that multiple times. Now that you mention it,

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Speaker 3: the thing is, though, and so I'm assuming that you

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Speaker 3: are saying you stand squarely in the four National Parks camp.

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, And are you a little more divided on

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Speaker 1: this one?

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Speaker 3: Well, after what I've read in today's story, I maybe

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Speaker 3: have to have one foot in, one foot out, because

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Speaker 3: it turns out that National parks could be a real

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Speaker 3: thorn in the side of working Americans throughout history and

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Speaker 3: well today.

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Speaker 1: Right because the National Park System was created way back

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixteen or August twenty fifth in this country,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to explore how how these became a

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Speaker 1: surprisingly controversial concept to a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: So our story.

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Speaker 1: Begins today in nineteen oh eight, when President Theodore Roosevelt

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Speaker 1: established something called the Lake Malheur Reservation in Oregon. And

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Speaker 1: I believe that our friend Casey Pegram has a little

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Speaker 1: more insight for us on Lake malheur.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so the word malur in French could be considered

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Speaker 4: like an antonym for bonar, which is happiness boner. So

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Speaker 4: maluur kind of means a lot of things depending on

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Speaker 4: the context, but they're all bad. You could say it's

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Speaker 4: a misfortune, a calamity, an ordeal, an accident. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: there you go, malir lake bad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's said, that's foreshadowing. Oh, also, Casey on

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Speaker 3: the case. Indeed, let's just get a few Let's deal

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Speaker 3: with some semantics up front right here. Okay, we talked

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Speaker 3: about national parks, like that's what we're talking about. And

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Speaker 3: while the system that created national parks is very much

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Speaker 3: the same system that created wilderness refuges and designates, you know,

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Speaker 3: wildlife reserves and things like that, they're not exactly the same.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, there's an important distinction to make because when

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Speaker 1: President Roosevelt established this reservation, it was the nineteenth of

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Speaker 1: fifty one wildlife refuges that were ultimately created by Roosevelt.

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Speaker 1: During his tenure, he was just making refuges left and right.

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Speaker 3: You know, he was a bit of an outdoorsman.

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Speaker 2: He was, indeed noll he was Indeed.

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Speaker 3: My question though, is can we can we spell it

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Speaker 3: out for the listeners and for my dumb ass exactly

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Speaker 3: what the difference is between a wildlife refuge, a national

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Speaker 3: park and a wildlife reserve.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we can, with a little help from Ali Berman

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Speaker 1: writing for mother Nature Network with the article parks versus

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Speaker 1: refuge what's the difference? So in this article, which is fantastic,

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Speaker 1: pretty comprehensive by the way, we learn that there are

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Speaker 1: several different manners in which government land can be set

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Speaker 1: aside for specific purposes. So first, there's the National park.

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Speaker 1: Everybody knows that idea think of Yellowstone, right, and Yellowstone

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Speaker 1: was established way back in eighteen seventy two, so it's

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Speaker 1: the predecessor to the early nineteen hundred's plans laid by

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Speaker 1: Woodrow Wilson with the National Park Service. Then there are

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Speaker 1: also state parks, which are like national parks, but they're

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Speaker 1: under the management of an individual state. Then there are

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Speaker 1: national forests, which are also different. And the difference here

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Speaker 1: comes in terms of the level of conservation. National parks

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Speaker 1: have preservation at the forefront of their priorities. National forest

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Speaker 1: have a larger array of activities like cutting down trees

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Speaker 1: for timber cattle, grazing, which will come into play later,

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Speaker 1: and mining. National preserves are open to the public and

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Speaker 1: the differences that preserves typically allow activities like hunting, trapping,

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Speaker 1: or mining. And then, of course there are national monuments,

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Speaker 1: things like Statue of Liberty, Mount Saint Helen's National Recreation areas.

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Speaker 1: State preserves state nature preserves make environmental preservation a top priority.

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Speaker 1: For instance, Indiana calls its state preserves living museums, so

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Speaker 1: these are protected for scientific research and educational resources. That

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Speaker 1: means that human activities are much more regulated.

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Speaker 3: But the reason that Teddy Roosevelt swooped Inn to designate

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Speaker 3: the Malleor Wildlife Reserve, it was because of ladies fancy hats. Yes,

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Speaker 3: did you know that?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's apps.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure sure it could be men's. I'm size any

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Speaker 3: fancy hats in general, because at the TIMEIMIM, which was

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Speaker 3: the nineteen early nineteen hundreds, they were quite in fashion,

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Speaker 3: these hats, these fancy hats of all shapes and sizes,

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Speaker 3: but an important feature was the plume.

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Speaker 1: Right, yes, you see milliners, which is our word for today.

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Speaker 1: People who make fancy hats, specifically for women, were always

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Speaker 1: searching for feathers to put in this headgear, and the

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Speaker 1: search for birds to supply these feathers was quite a

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Speaker 1: profitable industry, right. So, in the increasingly desperate efforts to

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Speaker 1: satisfy this wild demand for fancy hats, people had nearly

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Speaker 1: wiped out several species of birds that supplied these fetching,

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Speaker 1: colorful plumes, including birds like snowy egrets and rouseate spoon bills.

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Speaker 3: Ah, the spoon bill also the great egret, I believe,

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Speaker 3: was also very much in danger. And it was this

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Speaker 3: guy named William L. Finley, who was a conservationist of

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Speaker 3: the time, who had particularly hung out around that area

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Speaker 3: and taken a survey and he discovered only two egrets

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Speaker 3: in a month's time. And here's the thing. There's another

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Speaker 3: article I saw. Do you know who Audubon is of

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Speaker 3: the Audubon Society and.

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Speaker 2: Painter, right, John James Audubon, that's.

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Speaker 3: Right, Ben, the great American painter of birds who lived

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Speaker 3: from the late seventeen hundreds to the late eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 3: And he was quoting in his day, as you know,

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Speaker 3: he would go out and paint these birds from real life,

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Speaker 3: and he would say that he had no doubt in

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Speaker 3: his mind that any amount of progress that America could

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Speaker 3: possibly make, including building cities, increasing population, hunting, what have you,

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Speaker 3: that there were just so many of these damn birds

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Speaker 3: that there is never going to be any threat. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: he wasn't a scientist, and he was completely.

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Speaker 1: Wrong, right, because we know that the US civilization was

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Speaker 1: also incorrect about the passenger pigeon, which used to blacken

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Speaker 1: the skies as they flew overhead. And they don't do

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Speaker 1: it anymore because they are extinct. So back to Finley.

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Speaker 1: Here you can see how this is a splash of

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Speaker 1: cold water. So Audubon dies in eighteen fifty one, and

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Speaker 1: beforehand he makes this comment about the plenitude of these

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Speaker 1: beautiful birds. Finley in that search you mensioned, Finley is

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Speaker 1: searching in nineteen oh eight and only sees those two

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Speaker 1: egrets during a full month. But he also does something else.

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Speaker 1: He does a little bit of investigative journalism. He interviews

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Speaker 1: a plume hunter, one of the people who supplies these

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Speaker 1: feathers to milliners, and he learns that a good plume

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Speaker 1: hunter on a good day can make five hundred dollars

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Speaker 1: cash in nineteen oh eight dollars. Now, could you do

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Speaker 1: us a favorite whip? Out the inflation calculator for.

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Speaker 3: That I can. In fact, I don't even have to,

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Speaker 3: because the Pacific Standard dot Com did it for us

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Speaker 3: in the article the Odd History of Opposition to America's

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Speaker 3: National Parks, And according to them, five hundred dollars per

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Speaker 3: day in those days translates to more than twelve thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars in today's.

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Speaker 2: Cash, which means twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 3: That's insane. Yeah, twenty fifteen. Let's just be real obvious here.

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Speaker 3: He's not just going around plucking feathers. He's killing the birds,

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Speaker 3: and they're skinning them and taking their carcasses home right

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Speaker 3: and wiping out entire populations. And he boasted this guy

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Speaker 3: that he was going to take that all the way

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Speaker 3: to Mexico and just hunt them like a like a

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Speaker 3: murderous criminal across the west. So yeah, it was this

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Speaker 3: report when delivered to Roosevelt, it shocked Roosevelt into action,

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Speaker 3: and he wanted to help out these birds, these three

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Speaker 3: birds that were left. There were other species, I'm sure,

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Speaker 3: but sure.

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Speaker 1: And of course there were probably other birds that he

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Speaker 1: had not been able to find during that month of searching.

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Speaker 1: But still the problem is apparent. So Roosevelt sets the

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Speaker 1: land aside that same year, nineteen oh eight. He works fast, right,

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Speaker 1: And for a while this seemed to be a workable solution.

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Speaker 1: The population was beginning to recover the population of birds,

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Speaker 1: that is. But by nineteen twenty things started to go

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Speaker 1: wrong because there were still agriculture happening around the area.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: They're taking resources that are in this area and they're

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Speaker 1: sucking them out the same way Daniel de lux Us

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Speaker 1: in there will be blood says, I drink your milkshake.

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Speaker 1: Farmers in nearby areas are draining water from the rivers

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Speaker 1: that feed into Lake Malure, the Sylvis and Blitzen rivers specifically,

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Speaker 1: And this means that the lake begins drying up. And

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Speaker 1: what happens as a result of.

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Speaker 3: That the lake goes well, yeah, it turns into a

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Speaker 3: dust bowl, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it becomes a terrible place for these birds. It

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Speaker 1: becomes alkaline.

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Speaker 3: Right And what does that mean exactly? That does that

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Speaker 3: have to do with like the balance of the nutrients

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Speaker 3: in the water. I mean, if it's dried up entirely,

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Speaker 3: that's one thing, But as an alkaline kind of that's

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Speaker 3: what happens before it dries up entirely. I believe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the pH scale goes off. So an alkaline lake,

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Speaker 1: also known as a soda lake, has a pH value

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Speaker 1: between nine and twelve. One extreme example of this, there's

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Speaker 1: an excellent Smithsonian article I found about an alkaline lake

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Speaker 1: in Africa. And this article is written in twenty thirteen

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Speaker 1: by a guy named Joseph Stromberg. It's got some scary pictures.

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Speaker 1: He's looking at Tanzania's Lake Natron and the title is

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Speaker 1: this alkaline African lake turns animals into stone.

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Speaker 3: And that's the article I've been looking for this whole time.

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Speaker 3: I actually thought that this Lake Malor was that one,

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Speaker 3: but no, you got to see these pictures, folks. They

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Speaker 3: are outraged, stuff of nightmares.

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Speaker 1: Hoorrif ie. We'll post them on ridiculous historians. So bad things,

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Speaker 1: bad things.

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Speaker 3: And that's, you know, per our previous casey on the

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Speaker 3: case foreshadowing the lake is basically called bad lake, and

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Speaker 3: bad things happen.

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Speaker 1: This group of people in Oregon starts thinking, why don't

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Speaker 1: we just get rid of this whole thing entirely?

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Speaker 3: Who needs a lake?

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Speaker 2: Just call it off.

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Speaker 3: It's just it's become a dirt hole. Let's make use

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Speaker 3: of it. Let's sell it to farmers. They're good at dirt. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: they need it, literally a prerequisitiever being a farmer, you

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Speaker 3: gotta have some dirt.

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Speaker 1: But they knew people might already be against this, you know,

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Speaker 1: early environmentalists and conservationists, so they did a little bit

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Speaker 1: of marketing, right to try to really sell the idea.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they really did. They agreed that the proceeds would

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Speaker 3: go to benefit oh, public works and schools. I want

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Speaker 3: to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So in this

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Speaker 3: article from PS mag, there's a fantastic ad from of

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Speaker 3: the day that's posted in a tweet from Danielle Brigida,

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Speaker 3: who works for the United States Fish and Wildlife Service,

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Speaker 3: And it's a picture of I'm assuming one of these

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Speaker 3: spoon bills because it has a very spoon like bill

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Speaker 3: and a baby, arms out stretched as though they were

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Speaker 3: both posed in front of like what looks like a

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Speaker 3: floppy gray cloth backdrop, and.

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Speaker 1: The birds in profile looking a bit threatening toward it looks.

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Speaker 3: Like it's gonna eat the child and is every bit

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Speaker 3: as big as the child. And the headline is which

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Speaker 3: is best of all, Oh I got and this baby,

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Speaker 3: all this bird. Oh that's tough, and then the bottom

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Speaker 3: says vote for the baby three seventeen times no. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: this bill was basically fighting against the people that were

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Speaker 3: trying to keep this thing going despite the bad conditions.

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Speaker 1: And we should read a little bit of the copy

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Speaker 1: here just so you can see how ardently they were

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Speaker 1: endeavoring to phrase this as birds versus babies. Right under

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Speaker 1: the headlines that we read to you, there's another headline

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Speaker 1: that says the Malard Bird Reserve. Oh, I'll do, trans

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Speaker 1: Atlantic voice, what take fum oh again, forty seven thousand

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Speaker 1: acres of its most valuable school lands? So wait, forty

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Speaker 1: seven thousand acres of school lands.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's the hook. It's giving them a cause, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: Because who do you think it would win in a

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Speaker 3: fight between a bird and a baby?

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Speaker 2: A bird?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it depends on the size of the bird.

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Speaker 1: But looking at this bird and this baby, clearly the

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Speaker 1: bird has got.

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Speaker 3: No question about it, especially that giant spoon. Bill, You're

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Speaker 3: the size of the baby's entire head.

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Speaker 1: I would spoon the spoon the kid's head right off.

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Speaker 1: But the thing about this was that they also added

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Speaker 1: concerns about another naturally occurring life form in wetlands mosquitoes,

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Speaker 1: And in this complaint they talk about the dangers mosquitoes

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Speaker 1: might pose to Oregonians.

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Speaker 3: And not to mention the fact that these birds were

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Speaker 3: apparently actually stealing grain from the farmers who could potentially

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Speaker 3: benefit from the land. Right, And that's a big sticking

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Speaker 3: point in all of this kind of national park wildlife

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Speaker 3: refuge argument, at least when it comes to certain parts

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Speaker 3: of the country where folks could really benefit from those lands.

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Speaker 3: Right here in the city, we think about a national park,

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Speaker 3: we're like, cool, that's awesome, save the egrets or whatever.

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Speaker 3: But if you're a farmer and you need somewhere to

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Speaker 3: graze your cattle and Uncle Sam has swooped in and

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Speaker 3: taken a huge swath of land, might have a tune

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Speaker 3: to pay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to spend some more time on

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Speaker 1: this mosquito threat as well, because we again have the

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Speaker 1: benefit of being in the modern age. So it may

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Speaker 1: seem like an exploitative or manipulative point, but the truth

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Speaker 1: is that the complaints about mosquitoes are less about them

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Speaker 1: being annoying and more about incredibly dangerous diseases from the time,

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Speaker 1: like malaria. So I think that is also a valid point,

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Speaker 1: and that that's another aspect of this incredibly valid or

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Speaker 1: at least understandable argument, wherein somebody in a rural population

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Speaker 1: by a national park or by a reserve, or buy

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Speaker 1: some sort of refuge, maybe saying I feel as though

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Speaker 1: you are putting the lives of animals over the lives

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Speaker 1: of myself, my community, and my family.

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Speaker 3: That's right, because malaria was still kind of a problem.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah in that area. Apparently it had wiped out

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Speaker 3: a lot of the indigenous people early on in the

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Speaker 3: eighteen thirties, but yeah, it still had stuck around. And

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Speaker 3: if you've got a breeding ground for mosquitoes, malarial mosquitoes,

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Speaker 3: no less, that's a real problem and a pretty good

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Speaker 3: selling point for this campaign.

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Speaker 1: So what happened next? They did one of the most

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Speaker 1: American things you can do. They took it to court. Baby,

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Speaker 1: you defeated it. I mean it, it went away right.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Well, the state said that the Feds had stole it.

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Speaker 1: They said, more or less, Uncle Sam stole this land.

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Speaker 1: They didn't have President Roosevelt as commander in chief and

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Speaker 1: as the leader of the executive branch, never really had

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Speaker 1: the right to call the shots for this land in

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Speaker 1: the first place, and went all the way to the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court.

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Speaker 3: It kind of reminds me of that story we talked

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Speaker 3: about with your pops about Franklin. Oh, there was just

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Speaker 3: like a bunch of land that they just kind of

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Speaker 3: took it upon themselves to do something with. There was

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Speaker 3: once a time where that was a thing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, this happens, not so not so far after it.

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Speaker 1: So by nineteen thre five, the Supreme Court, having considered

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Speaker 1: the issue air quotes the issue right, they juticated there

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Speaker 1: we go. Yes, they ruled in favor of the federal government,

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Speaker 1: and they said that this land does in fact belong

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Speaker 1: to the Feds. This refuge, this reserve is legitimate, and

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Speaker 1: Uncle Sam had the authority to protect the wetlands from people,

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Speaker 1: even if you know it endangered the livelihood of those

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Speaker 1: same people. So you may be wondering, friends and neighbors,

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Speaker 1: where this story goes. How does it end? It feels

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Speaker 1: like you might be thinking that Nolan and I did

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Speaker 1: a little bit of an abrupt cut. But we're not

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Speaker 1: ending the story. We're moving ahead because this argument that

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Speaker 1: occurred way back in nineteen twenty resonates today and remains

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Speaker 1: important today, we see many similar arguments as a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, happening as recently as what No. Twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. What are we talking about? The militant

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Speaker 3: takeover of the Malor National Wildlife Refuge. Is this what

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Speaker 3: we're talking about?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, all of one.

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Speaker 1: So could you tell us just a little bit about

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Speaker 1: this and how it transpired?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I mean there was a group of armed

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Speaker 3: militiamen and the Bundy family and their followers, headed up

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Speaker 3: by a guy named Aimon Bundy.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Aman Bundy, not to be confused with Solomon Grundy

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Speaker 1: though they just rhyme or Ted Bundy or Ted definitely

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Speaker 1: not to be confused with Ted Bundy.

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Speaker 3: Or Al Bundy.

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Speaker 2: You know what, I'll allow it, okay, all right?

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Speaker 1: So Aman Bundy participated in something in twenty fourteen called

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Speaker 1: the Bundy Standoff at his father's ranch in Nevada.

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Speaker 2: This was a very.

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Speaker 1: Controversial and sensitive topic because other members of his group,

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Speaker 1: the one that you had mentioned, this Bundy group, were

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Speaker 1: loosely affiliated with militias and something called the Sovereign Citizen Movement. So,

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Speaker 1: without getting too far into the Bundy Standoff, we wanted

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Speaker 1: to give you just some background on this guy. He

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Speaker 1: is an American car fleet manager and his father was

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Speaker 1: a rancher named Cliven Bundy, and his father was a

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Speaker 1: leader of this twenty fourteen Bundy standoff in which Aimon

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Speaker 1: took part. And their problem was that they were refusing

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Speaker 1: to pay grazing fees for taking their livestock on federally

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Speaker 1: owned public land. And they said, well it's public land.

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Speaker 1: We're just trying to make a living, right, why are

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Speaker 1: you putting this land over the livelihood of human beings?

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Speaker 3: And it's that same argument Uncle Sam stole it.

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Speaker 1: Right, This argument from nineteen twenty still thematically applied in

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Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. But before we get to twenty sixteen, there

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Speaker 1: are some things that led up to the twenty fourteen

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Speaker 1: Bundee standoff there in Nevada.

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Speaker 3: Right, Well, yeah, it was sort of a bit of

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Speaker 3: a domino effect situation. So a guy named Dwight Hammond

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Speaker 3: Junior and his son, Steven Hammond were actually sentenced to

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Speaker 3: pretty significant jail time. Believe they both were sentenced to

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Speaker 3: five years, and that is because they set wildfires on

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Speaker 3: this protected land. Well you don't set wildfires, I guess,

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Speaker 3: but they set fires on the printed land. To prevent

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Speaker 3: wildfires from damaging their you know, you burn things to

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Speaker 3: keep things from burning, which seems weird, but.

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Speaker 1: To make a break where there's no combustible material, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or relatively little.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: They set one fire in two thousand and one and

397
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Speaker 1: one in two thousand and six, and then in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 1: They were both charged in relation to these fires.

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Speaker 3: And I believe, you know, the way they said it

400
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Speaker 3: was that one of them got out of hand. But

401
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Speaker 3: according to an article on CNN, Bundy who did the standoff?

402
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Speaker 3: Who was you know, one of the guys who was

403
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Speaker 3: the leader of the of the militia group that you know,

404
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 3: overtook the refuge headquart which apparently, by all accounts was

405
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Speaker 3: completely uninhabited and the doors were open, and this standoff

406
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Speaker 3: was like not really much of a standoff at all,

407
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Speaker 3: and he never really led on to exactly how many

408
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Speaker 3: people he had there, and it was kind of a

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Speaker 3: whole lot of sound and fury signifying not a whole lot.

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Speaker 3: But their arguments were that the government should give up

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Speaker 3: control of this refuge so that hardworking you know, ranchers

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Speaker 3: and farmers can do what they need to do, whether

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Speaker 3: it be grazed, their cattle or you know, mitigate these

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Speaker 3: wildfires in order to make a living. So it's that

415
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Speaker 3: same argument of like this is more of a problem

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Speaker 3: than it is a benefit.

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Speaker 1: So concurrently, while they're going through the legal issues with this,

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Speaker 1: the Hammonds the Bundies are having their twenty fourteen standoff.

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Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen, US courts vacate the charges against Stephen

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Speaker 1: and Dwight Hammond, and this has already attracted the Bundy

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Speaker 1: family to their cause. And the idea is that when

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Speaker 1: the court vacated these sentences, they didn't just let them out.

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Speaker 1: They re sentenced them pretty much immediately to a mandatory

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Speaker 1: minimum of five years in prison.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 1: And the Bundy said, you know what, we're going to

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Speaker 1: protest this, and the Hammond said, apparently, guys, we don't

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Speaker 1: really need your help.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of people apparently said that. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it kind of had the look of that the Bundies

431
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Speaker 3: were overreaching a little bit and kind of doing something

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Speaker 3: that maybe no one quite asked them to do. Because

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Speaker 3: there's this great Vice documentary where they go to a

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Speaker 3: town hall and a lot of the folks, the ranchers,

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Speaker 3: the community is like, these guys are jerks, like they're

436
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Speaker 3: making us look bad, and they're making us look like

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Speaker 3: a bunch of militant whack jobs, and that's not cool.

438
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 3: It's not a good look. So it did seem like

439
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 3: their gesture was not appreciated by all.

440
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: Let's say that absolutely.

441
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 3: So we know that the Bundies were big fans of

442
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 3: arms standoffs.

443
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: Right right, and they were they saw themselves on the

444
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: right side of history.

445
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 3: Isn't standoff though if you do it at your own ranch.

446
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 3: Who was after them at their own ranch? I'm confused

447
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 3: about that one.

448
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: Yeah as well. Right.

449
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: But in twenty sixteen, this group of armed militants, seeking

450
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: to I guess, bring more attention to the Hammond case,

451
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 1: they seize the headquarters of the Malor National Wildlife Refuge

452
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: there in Harney County, Oregon, and they occupy it until

453
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: law enforcement finally arrests everbody on February eleventh, twenty sixteen.

454
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 1: Their leader aim in Bundy not to be confused with

455
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: anyone but out, and their motivation for this was again

456
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: to bring more attention to that same old argument from

457
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties. They wanted to persuade the public to

458
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: side with them in the idea that the United States

459
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 1: Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management and other

460
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: similar organizations are constitutionally required to turn over federal public

461
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: land to individual states. So no federal parks, no federal reserves,

462
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: only state level stuff.

463
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 3: Got it? So does that did it really accomplish anything?

464
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 3: Was that a positive step? Because, I mean, the guys

465
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 3: that set the fires originally were pardoned by President t

466
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 3: Rump recently too, So does that mean that the current

467
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 3: administration is more sympathetic to the need of these farmers

468
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 3: and more likely to maybe get rid of some of

469
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 3: these refuges. It's kind of seem that way.

470
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: That's an that's an interesting question to know. I mean,

471
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: there's always been some degree of tension between the federal

472
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: level of governance and the state level of governance, you

473
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: know what I mean. For instance, well, we've already done

474
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: several episodes wherein we learned that a handful of states

475
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: we're completely okay being their own countries.

476
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 2: For a while.

477
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 3: Yep.

478
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 2: Right, So, as.

479
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 1: Of today, this argument continues, and we have to ask

480
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: ourselves what is the solution, if indeed a solution exists?

481
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: You know, are we are we to put ourselves in

482
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: a situation where the quality of life for human beings

483
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: is sacrificed for the sake of biodiversity. Are we to

484
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: put ourselves in a situation where we sacrifice biodiversity and

485
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: wildlife or natural ecosystems for people's livelihoods?

486
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 3: And then obviously it's got to be somewhere perfectly in

487
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 3: the middle, right right right, You got any ideas.

488
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: If so, we would like to hear them, so right

489
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: to us directly. We are ridiculous at HowStuffWorks dot com and.

490
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 3: We know this was kind of a circuitous, weird one,

491
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 3: but I thought it was fun do a little backstory,

492
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 3: bring a full circle to the now.

493
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: And I think you did a really good job man,

494
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: by the way, especially considering your bird thing.

495
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 3: Oh god, I didn't even think about that.

496
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 2: Well, I had to. I had to hold it to

497
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 2: the very end.

498
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 1: But if you would like to learn more about this,

499
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: if you would like to see some of those insane

500
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: pictures of animals from the Alkaline Lake.

501
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 3: I almost looked at those, dude. It's like I shed

502
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 3: my bird fear just for this episode, and then you

503
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 3: reminded me and it all came flooding back and like

504
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 3: a like a murder of crows.

505
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 2: Flapping back, flying back.

506
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 3: I'm gonna need you to finish that one.

507
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, you can see those pictures on our community page,

508
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. You can find us on Instagram, you can

509
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter, and you can check out our

510
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: website for every single show we have ever done. You

511
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: don't tweet, Dewey, we're you and I spend more time

512
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: on the Instagram and.

513
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: The Facebook page.

514
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 3: That's true. We need we need to get a little

515
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,479
Speaker 3: more personal with that Instagram though. I looked at the

516
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,719
Speaker 3: other day and it was kind of a sad site.

517
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: Let us know what you would like to see on

518
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: the Instagram and we will. We will pop in there ourselves,

519
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: well watch and get a little bit ridiculous with it.

520
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, our website is Ridiculous historyshow dot com.

521
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:40,239
Speaker 3: That's right.

522
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: And we'd also like to say, you know what, listen

523
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: not a positive note, nol. What's your favorite national park?

524
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: If you're not in the States, what does your country have?

525
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 2: In equivalent?

526
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, let us know, and we'd also, of course I

527
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 3: have to thank super producer Casey Pegram Alex Williams, who

528
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 3: composed our theme. I like to thank you, Ben, and

529
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 3: thank you NOL for waiting till the end to mention

530
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 3: the fact of this episode was about.

531
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 2: Birds, cacaw, bro cuckaw, and yeah it.

532
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 3: Most importantly, thank you guys for listening and tuning in

533
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 3: and join us next time when we talk about something else.

534
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: That's right, and we'll tune in for our next episode

535
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: when we explore these surprising origins of Oregon.

536
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 3: See you then, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit

537
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 3: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

538
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:29,719
Speaker 3: your favorite shows