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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones. Hey Kate, Hey Paul, how are you.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing good. I understand Season seven of tenfold More

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Speaker 2: Wicked is starting.

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Speaker 1: It's out. The first two episodes are out, and I

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Speaker 1: love it. I'm so excited. That show gives me such

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Speaker 1: life and I love being out just like you. You

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Speaker 1: and I talk all the time about wanting to be

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Speaker 1: out in the field. I love being in the field

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Speaker 1: of journalism, being out in the field and reporting on stuff.

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Speaker 1: And so I've got season seven, which I think you

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Speaker 1: and I are going to have to chat about because

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Speaker 1: it's about a family annihilator in the eighteen hundreds in Austin.

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Speaker 1: For people who don't know, what is the definition of

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Speaker 1: a family annihilator?

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Speaker 2: You know, actually that term is kind of a generic term.

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Speaker 2: It's just here it is. It's somebody who takes out

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Speaker 2: their entire family. It may be insidious or over time

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Speaker 2: the relationships degrade, but then you also have the mass

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Speaker 2: killing where the entire family has been eliminated.

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Speaker 1: I think it's interesting about the family annihilator in this case,

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Speaker 1: it's the father, which is kind of traditionally what has

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Speaker 1: happened in the past. It's usually a man, but not always,

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Speaker 1: And this was a man who in the eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: in Austin, when he was a teenager, he witnessed a

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Speaker 1: really gruesome crime scene that his father took him to.

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Speaker 1: And so the big question that I answer in season seven,

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Speaker 1: I try to answer is did being at this crime

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Speaker 1: scene trigger something in him? Because the crimes he committed

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Speaker 1: against his family, you know, fifteen to twenty years later,

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Speaker 1: were very similar to what he saw at the crime

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Speaker 1: scene when he was a teenager. Do you believe in that?

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Speaker 1: Do you believe that you know, young people witnessing something

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Speaker 1: terrible can influence them in a really bad way later

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Speaker 1: on in life.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think there's there's any question that, you know,

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Speaker 2: a level of trauma like that can have an impact

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Speaker 2: that resonates throughout somebody's life. I think what I would

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Speaker 2: be interested in hearing about are the details of what

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Speaker 2: he witnessed as a kid, and then what exactly he

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Speaker 2: did to his family. You know, part of what people

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Speaker 2: rely upon to commit crimes, it's what they have seen,

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Speaker 2: whether it's in the media, you know, on TV, or

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Speaker 2: at the movies or now you know, what they look

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Speaker 2: up online, and then they that's what they understand what

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Speaker 2: they have to do, you know. So maybe he thought, well,

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Speaker 2: I saw this that was successful back then, I will

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Speaker 2: do that again to my family.

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Speaker 1: I just don't understand how you can do that to

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Speaker 1: your family because it involves two little kids. Also, the

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Speaker 1: level of violence that you see sometimes with these cases,

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Speaker 1: to me is just unbelievable. I think there are people

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Speaker 1: who kill their families and then there are people who

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Speaker 1: just brutalize their bodies, And it's just always stunning in

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Speaker 1: to me to report on stories like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's obviously a horrific crime for a parent, a husband, spouse,

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Speaker 2: you know, to do something like that.

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Speaker 1: I think, though, what I like about this season, besides

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Speaker 1: the fact that's in my hometown of Austin, Texas and

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Speaker 1: I get to learn a lot about the history there,

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Speaker 1: what I really like about this season is learning about

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Speaker 1: that the psychology behind it. What happens to you when

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Speaker 1: you're young, we know affects you later on, but with

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Speaker 1: something so traumatizing, it must have been very traumatizing what

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Speaker 1: he saw. And I'm not going to tell you what

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Speaker 1: it was that it affected him so profoundly later on.

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Speaker 1: So you know, once we get further in, I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you a little bit more about the season. But I'm

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Speaker 1: just excited to share it to everybody. So I have

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Speaker 1: a tenfold more wicked high as what I call it

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Speaker 1: when I'm just as giddy as can be because I

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Speaker 1: know that this show is coming out. I love it.

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Speaker 1: I love the show.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's that's awesome. You must be getting bored of me,

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Speaker 2: So here's something else that's coming right.

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Speaker 1: I knew you were going to say that. Don't be threatened.

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Speaker 1: It's okay.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: You're still my favorite. Well, and you know, I can

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Speaker 1: bounce things off of experts at tenfold more wicked. Obviously

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Speaker 1: I do. That's part of the show. But to have

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Speaker 1: a relationship with someone, a friendship with someone consistently where

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Speaker 1: I know I've asked you things in the past, and

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Speaker 1: I'll ask you to repeat these things, and I remember

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Speaker 1: bits and pieces of information that's invaluable to me in

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Speaker 1: the little safety deposit box in my mind of forensics

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Speaker 1: that I don't understand. So the more I talk to you,

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Speaker 1: the easier it is for me to do my other

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Speaker 1: two shows.

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Speaker 2: That's nice to hear.

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Speaker 1: I'm grateful for you for that. So let's move on

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Speaker 1: to this next case, and let's set the scene. So

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Speaker 1: this case is set in the late eighteen hundreds in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever been to Pittsburgh. I've been

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Speaker 1: to Philadelphia, what about you, Pittsburgh.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've flown into Pittsburgh and drove I think

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Speaker 2: from the Pittsburgh airport out to West Virginia one time,

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Speaker 2: so I have a little bit of a sense of

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Speaker 2: the outskirts of that city, but just generally that part

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Speaker 2: of the country.

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Speaker 1: When I was reading about in the research that Maren

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Speaker 1: did and my own independent research about this story. Pittsburgh

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Speaker 1: by the late eighteen hundreds was already a steel powerhouse,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure it provided a lot of steel for

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Speaker 1: the railroads that were really popping up. And this is

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Speaker 1: also the start of what they called the Great Migration,

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Speaker 1: where millions of black people left the rural South for

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Speaker 1: larger cities in the north to get more industrial jobs.

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Speaker 1: And so you're seeing Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania being a lot more

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Speaker 1: diverse than it had been in the past. By the

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Speaker 1: end of the nineteenth century, a lot of black Americans

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Speaker 1: had already relocated to western Pennsylvania because they were promised

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Speaker 1: all kinds of work. But of course then they would

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Speaker 1: arrive and they were mostly exploited and underpaid. So this

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Speaker 1: involves a man named Albert Davis, who's forty eight years old,

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Speaker 1: a black man who arrived in Pennsylvania. We don't know

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Speaker 1: where he came from, We don't know much about his background.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it really matters in this story, but

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Speaker 1: we'll see what you say. And in eighteen eighty nine,

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Speaker 1: he's living in a house in the city's East end,

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Speaker 1: and he'd been there for a few months and he's

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Speaker 1: sharing it with his wife of ten years, who was

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Speaker 1: a black woman named Caroline. In the newspaper, she's also

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Speaker 1: called Carrie, but predominantly it was Caroline. So we're gonna

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Speaker 1: stick with Caroline. And here's one of the first of

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Speaker 1: many discrepancies. We don't know if they were legally married.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it matters in this case, but that's

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Speaker 1: just one of the things that pops up for me

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Speaker 1: whenever I report on people of color throughout history is

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Speaker 1: lack of birth certificates, lack of immigration papers, lack of

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Speaker 1: any real official documents that would tell you any real

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Speaker 1: details government details about somebody who was living anywhere in America.

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Speaker 1: And I know that you and I have talked about

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Speaker 1: the unreliability when you can't find someone's birth certificate in history.

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Speaker 2: Right, No, obviously, you know, the birth certificate is a

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Speaker 2: huge thing because it not only substantiates, you know, the

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Speaker 2: day that somebody was born, it lists the parents, assuming

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Speaker 2: that the parents are listed correctly. And we know that

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Speaker 2: sometimes the mother is going to be the accurate listing,

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Speaker 2: but the father may or may not be accurate. But

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Speaker 2: that's just something that is taken into consideration as you

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Speaker 2: build a family tree, or utilizing the genealogy tool in

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Speaker 2: modern forensic technology.

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Speaker 1: I have a story a tenfold season that you'll hear

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Speaker 1: about eventually. I can't really talk about it much right now,

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Speaker 1: but it's from seventeen sixty six in Williamsburg, Virginia, and

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Speaker 1: I spoke to one woman there whose family had been

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Speaker 1: there for generations and generations into the seventeen hundreds earlier,

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Speaker 1: and she said she knew nothing because her relatives were

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Speaker 1: all black. She had no documentation versus her friends, who

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Speaker 1: you know, were white and had plenty of documentation from

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Speaker 1: their families. So it's interesting trying to piece together the

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Speaker 1: history of people who were involved in a crime in history.

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Speaker 1: It's just hard. It can be a struggle sometimes, but

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Speaker 1: I think we have a lot of good information, and

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Speaker 1: I have some great forensics to run past you that

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Speaker 1: are of course, I find that the more confusing the

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Speaker 1: forensics are to me, the more fun it is for

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Speaker 1: you because you get you get to explain it to

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Speaker 1: a lay person, which is great, and I am a

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Speaker 1: layperson with ballistics, which is really what we have to

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Speaker 1: get into.

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Speaker 2: Okay, But I actually have a question of you from

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Speaker 2: a historic standpoint, with these black families and the lack

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Speaker 2: of official documentation, and in these types of cases, you're

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Speaker 2: not getting the media reporting to the level that you

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Speaker 2: would see with other populations. Would these black families be

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Speaker 2: buried next to their family members?

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Speaker 1: Yes, and no. I just did a story that we

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Speaker 1: were talking about the grave site in Austin, the oldest

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Speaker 1: which is called oak Wood, and there were an awful

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Speaker 1: lot of family members, current family members who were buried

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Speaker 1: near their ancestors. The problem was was that there were

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Speaker 1: almost no markers in certain areas. They just didn't mark

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Speaker 1: the graves and so it was sort of a guest

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Speaker 1: So it's hard to even find in some circumstances graves

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Speaker 1: that are still there that were marked accurately at all.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it's difficult and that's part of it. And

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Speaker 1: so I can't imagine then trying to piece your own

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Speaker 1: family history together when you have ancestry and you just

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Speaker 1: can't locate these documents. It's just another piece of evidence

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Speaker 1: of lost history because of you know who you were

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Speaker 1: and who your ancestors were.

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Speaker 2: Because I would occasionally have to go to like find

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Speaker 2: agrave dot com, not only just to get information on

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Speaker 2: the person that I knew was buried there, but look

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Speaker 2: at the surrounding grave sites to see, Oh, here's the

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Speaker 2: person's wife that I have no documentation on, or children

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Speaker 2: or parents.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So with this story, there are inconsistencies that I

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Speaker 1: don't think are really going to impact the story. But

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Speaker 1: one of them, of course, as I said, is that

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Speaker 1: we're not sure if Caroline or Albert are legally married.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think it matters at this point. Albert

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Speaker 1: Davis is not like most black men in in Pittsburgh.

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Speaker 1: He's not a steel worker. He's a restaurant proprietor, which

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Speaker 1: is actually a great position for him to be in.

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Speaker 1: So Albert Davis will be our victim here. The death

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Speaker 1: happens in the early morning on Tuesday, January eighth of

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighty nine, around one o'clock in the morning. A

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Speaker 1: police officer is patrolling near Davis's house in Pittsburgh, and

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Speaker 1: he hears a gun shot from inside the residence. So

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Speaker 1: someone who's outside patrolling around, here's this gun shot, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's important later on, So just something to

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Speaker 1: lock away here. Before long, the police have forced through

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Speaker 1: Davis's front door and inside they find him in a

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Speaker 1: pool of blood at the bottom of his staircase, and

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Speaker 1: there is a revolver lying on a table nearby, as

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Speaker 1: well as several empty beer bottles, and it's very clear

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Speaker 1: he has a big hole in his chest. So he

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Speaker 1: has been shot in the chest.

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Speaker 2: Do we know how far away he's laying from this

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Speaker 2: table that has the revolver on it.

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Speaker 1: Here's the discrepancy. So the media had different opinions. They

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Speaker 1: were very vague, but a source that I like a

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Speaker 1: lot says it was on a table and it sounds

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Speaker 1: like pretty close by the table. So in my mind,

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Speaker 1: if this is murder he can be shot. Or if

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Speaker 1: it's not murder, if it's death by suicide, he would

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Speaker 1: have been able to stagger over the four feet to

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Speaker 1: the staircase. It doesn't seem to be a cross the room.

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Speaker 1: It's nearby, Okay, so beer bottles nearby?

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Speaker 2: To me?

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Speaker 1: Are we thinking just you're an investigator, you walk in,

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Speaker 1: this is the scene that you see. You're not jumping

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Speaker 1: to conclusions about anything, even though there are beer bottles

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Speaker 1: by and there's a guy dead on the ground from

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Speaker 1: a chest wound. You're not thinking immediately murder or suicide

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Speaker 1: or anything. You're trying to gather information, right, Well, that's.

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Speaker 2: Correct, and it is so important to look at sort

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Speaker 2: of the information about normal living that occurred prior to

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Speaker 2: the homicide. And so those beer bottles would be something

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Speaker 2: that I would be paying attention to. Is there an

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Speaker 2: indication in the way that the beer bottles are distributed,

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Speaker 2: like he had several people that were sitting down or

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Speaker 2: standing in conversation. Are they more in a heap, like

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Speaker 2: you have one person who's just pounding down these bottles.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's something to note. And then of course

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Speaker 2: it's going to be is Albert one of the people

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Speaker 2: that's drinking the beer or drank all the beer? And

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Speaker 2: that's something that would be determined as the investigation proceeds.

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Speaker 1: We do interview witnesses later on, and I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: about the scene. Nothing abnormal, people there drinking, No one's drunk.

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Speaker 1: Albert had a drink, He's not drunk. Nobody seems drunk

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Speaker 1: at this point when this place closes down, because remember

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Speaker 1: it's a restaurant and he lives upstairs in the restaurant.

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Speaker 2: Normally, these beer bottles would be a great form of evidence.

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Speaker 2: You know, you have the fingerprints on them. Of course,

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Speaker 2: there's In this day and age, the DNA would probably

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Speaker 2: be able to determine, you know, which bottle was touched

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Speaker 2: by Albert or by a potential suspect. But in eighteen

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Speaker 2: eighty nine, you know, even fingerprints weren't being widely used.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, and the good thing, I guess not

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Speaker 1: the good thing for Albert Davis. But the good thing

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Speaker 1: about this case is that the police kind of quickly

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Speaker 1: determined that fingerprints are not going to be needed in

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Speaker 1: this particular case. But we'll see if you agree with

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Speaker 1: this moving forward, So beer bottles a revolver. You've got

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Speaker 1: this man on the floor in a pool of blood,

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Speaker 1: and they find two people there. Only anyone else who

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Speaker 1: had been there has left. But the people who had

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Speaker 1: left left at about eleven forty five pm shut the door,

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Speaker 1: the restaurant closed. And then you've got the three people

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Speaker 1: there who live there. There is Albert Davis, there is

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Speaker 1: the woman I mentioned, Caroline, who is his wife, and

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Speaker 1: then there is a young girl who was also black.

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Speaker 1: Her name is Nellie. So you're probably gonna have a

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Speaker 1: lot of questions about Nellie. The frustrating thing about Nellie

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Speaker 1: is that the papers can't even get her age right.

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Speaker 1: It's an age range from non to fourteen. I have

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Speaker 1: reasonab believe that she's closer to fourteen, but we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about that in a little bit. That's a pretty big

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Speaker 1: range when you're talking about some man at the bottom

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Speaker 1: of the stairs dead and the only two people who

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Speaker 1: were in the house that we know of are a

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Speaker 1: woman and someone who could be a nine year old,

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Speaker 1: all the way up to a fourteen year old.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, that is such a critical age in child development,

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Speaker 2: both mentally, emotionally and physically. So it's now assessing all

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Speaker 2: of those characteristics in this potential witness, right.

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Speaker 1: And so when the police take a look at these

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Speaker 1: two people, the woman and Nellie, they're both in their pajamas,

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Speaker 1: nobody has blood on them. And what Nellie says is

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Speaker 1: that she never heard a gunshot. She says that she

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Speaker 1: saw Albert fall down the stairs, so tumbled down the stairs,

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Speaker 1: but she hadn't seen anything amiss up until being in bed.

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Speaker 1: She went to bed, and then the next thing she

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Speaker 1: hears is something, and she goes and she sees Albert

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Speaker 1: falling down the stairs. She doesn't hear a gun shot,

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Speaker 1: she doesn't see the gun and that is it. Similarly,

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Speaker 1: Caroline gives very vague details to the police. Also, and

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Speaker 1: not surprisingly, the adult, the woman, Caroline, becomes the top suspect.

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Speaker 2: Now we have the first respond to that's entering into

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Speaker 2: the house. Does he see Caroline standing near Albert. Does

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Speaker 2: it appear that she's trying to take care of him,

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Speaker 2: as if she's distressed that he's been shot?

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Speaker 1: No reaction that was noted that I saw they were there.

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Speaker 1: They were in their pajamas. They look shocked, but also

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Speaker 1: shocked that you just had the police kick in the door,

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Speaker 1: so nobody's running to the door. I think this all

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Speaker 1: happened very fast. I think it was fortuitous that the

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Speaker 1: police were in the neighborhood and heard this shot happen.

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Speaker 1: I think it's weird that police outside heard the revolver

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Speaker 1: go off, but Nellie, who was asleep, didn't hear the

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Speaker 1: revolver go off. Does that in any way make sense

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Speaker 1: to you someone who is dead asleep, who's a young girl.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in fact, I've had cases witnesses that. In fact,

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Speaker 2: in one case which there was probably on the order

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Speaker 2: of about seventy shots fired and there is a man

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Speaker 2: sleeping in a just one of these little trailers on

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Speaker 2: a driveway, and he literally wakes up while I'm processing

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Speaker 2: part of this crime scene right by the trailer where

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Speaker 2: there was cartridge cases. And when he was interviewed, he

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Speaker 2: didn't hear any of those shots. You know, So in

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Speaker 2: that sleepy state with Nellie, it doesn't surprise me at

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Speaker 2: all that she's not processing that loud noise. But also

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Speaker 2: it's the configuration of the residents that they're in. Maybe

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Speaker 2: the acoustics were such that it would have been muffled

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Speaker 2: where she was at in her bedroom and allowed you know,

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Speaker 2: the sound more focused out towards the street where the

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Speaker 2: patrol officer was at.

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Speaker 1: Normally I would call bs on the seventy shots somebody

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Speaker 1: sleeping through it nearby, But probably about two weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: we had our burglar alarm go off because somebody didn't

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Speaker 1: close the door all the way and the wind blew

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Speaker 1: it open and it sounded horrific. Neither kid woke up,

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Speaker 1: thirteen years old slept right through. You guys, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: be useless if someone breaks into our house. But I

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Speaker 1: mean the dog didn't wake up right.

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Speaker 2: And you also have to pay attention to you know,

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Speaker 2: as a person under the influence of a substance.

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Speaker 1: Let's have another reminder of what the purposes of a

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Speaker 1: coroner's inquest.

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Speaker 2: The corners when they cannot conclude as to the manner

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Speaker 2: of death, is it homicide, was it accident, then they

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Speaker 2: will convene a jury and have a magistrate oversee this

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Speaker 2: hearing in which now witnesses, the pathologists, officers that would

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Speaker 2: have responded to the scene, other witnesses presenting the facts

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Speaker 2: to this jury, and then the jury, after hearing those facts,

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Speaker 2: will give a finding and sometimes it will come down

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Speaker 2: as being homicide, sometimes will be suicide.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: So you're really allowing this peer group make the decision

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Speaker 2: based on what they've heard. It's like a grand jury

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Speaker 2: when you are presenting a criminal case in order to

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Speaker 2: get the true bill to get somebody now having to

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Speaker 2: stand trial.

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Speaker 1: Right, So criminal charges can follow a coroner's inquest. Okay,

359
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Speaker 1: So now I've given you the clue that there is

360
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Speaker 1: some question about the manner of death. And I've told

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Speaker 1: you that Nellie said she heard no gun shot, but

362
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Speaker 1: she did see him fall down the stairs. Caroline is

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Speaker 1: equally as vague. She said the same thing. So the

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Speaker 1: coroner does an autopsy and I'm going to tell you

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Speaker 1: the results there in just a second, but I wanted

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Speaker 1: to remind you of what these women, what their story was,

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Speaker 1: which was pretty consistent, even though I do think it's vague.

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Speaker 1: Nobody heard a gunshot. These two people saw him roll

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Speaker 1: down the stairs. So here's what they found. Two physicians

370
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Speaker 1: examined him, and they both concluded that Albert was killed

371
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Speaker 1: by a s single gunshot wound which struck him in

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Speaker 1: the heart. And they also said, this to me is important.

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Speaker 1: They also said there were no other wounds on his body.

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Speaker 1: Can you fall down the steps and have no wounds

375
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Speaker 1: on your body?

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Speaker 2: I've seen it happen. Really, I had a roughly forty

377
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Speaker 2: five year old male who tumbled down carpeted steps, broke

378
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Speaker 2: his neck. He was dead. You'd expect all these abrasions

379
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Speaker 2: and everything else. Nothing. Wow.

380
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Speaker 1: Okay, So we're not saying Nellie's lying and Caroline's lying

381
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Speaker 1: at this point, because that could have been the case.

382
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Speaker 1: He could have fallen down the stairs. You know, we

383
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Speaker 1: don't know what happened. He fell down the stairs. Maybe

384
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Speaker 1: he shot himself at the top of the stairs. He

385
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Speaker 1: fell down the stairs, he put the gun down, he

386
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Speaker 1: stumbled over, and I guess there could be a lot

387
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Speaker 1: of things that could happen, But they are debating suicide

388
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Speaker 1: versus murder. Knowing the little that you know, and I

389
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Speaker 1: have some more details coming up, where just on the

390
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Speaker 1: onset would you fall on this.

391
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Speaker 2: Yet a lot of this comes down to the assessment,

392
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Speaker 2: particularly of Carolyn, in terms of her her statements, her

393
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Speaker 2: state of mind, information about where that relationship was at

394
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Speaker 2: that moment, as well as how would she benefit if

395
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Speaker 2: Albert had been killed. This is all assessing her as

396
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:19,399
Speaker 2: a potential suspect if she is telling the truth about

397
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 2: seeing Albert fall down these stairs. Now I start getting

398
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,919
Speaker 2: into questions of okay, you know, if he's not shooting

399
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,160
Speaker 2: himself and tumbling down the stairs, and whether he staggers

400
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 2: and puts a revolver, you know, over onto the table,

401
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 2: or does a revolver fleeing over you know, kind of

402
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 2: gets thrown as he's tumbling and just happens to coincidentally,

403
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 2: you know, land on the table. I'm now interested in

404
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 2: if there's any information about the distance of the gunshot,

405
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,360
Speaker 2: and that would tell me and be very informative as

406
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Speaker 2: to whether Albert could have physically shot himself, or do

407
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 2: I ask somebody, maybe an unseen offender by the two

408
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,120
Speaker 2: witnesses at the bottom of the stairs, shooting Outbert while

409
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 2: he was up on the stairs, and then that shooter

410
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Speaker 2: places the revolver on the table and runs out.

411
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Speaker 1: Those are good questions. I want to start with gunshot

412
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Speaker 1: residue because that's something that I've always found confusing and interesting.

413
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 1: And I gave you a little bit of a homework

414
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:21,360
Speaker 1: assignment because testing someone or something for gunshot residue, there

415
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 1: was no test until about nineteen thirty three for that,

416
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 1: so they weren't able to do that. They're going to

417
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 1: have to rely on a couple of other interesting techniques.

418
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 1: But tell me about I read about paraffin used for

419
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 1: gunshot residue and I did you get a chance to

420
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Speaker 1: look into that?

421
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 2: For me? Actually, I was very familiar with that particular test.

422
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 2: I had to reacquaint myself with it because we never

423
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 2: did it in my lab, but as part of my

424
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 2: forensic studies. That was a test that I learned about

425
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,959
Speaker 2: during the evolution of how we would examine for gunshot residue.

426
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Speaker 1: So tell me about the paraffin. Is that paraffin that

427
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 1: when I go get a manicure or pedicure that they

428
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 1: put on my legs. Kind of paraffine like waxy. Is

429
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 1: that what it is?

430
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 2: That's exactly what it is. Now. I can't say if

431
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 2: it's the same composition as what was used during the test,

432
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 2: But basically the paraffin is just a wax that can

433
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 2: melt at a reasonably low temperature and then it can

434
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 2: be applied to somebody's hands, allowed to harden, and then

435
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 2: that wax can be peeled off and then tested with

436
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 2: a chemical difenol amine that reacts with nitrates. And firearms

437
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 2: discharge evidence is chalk full of nitrate containing chemicals, and

438
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 2: so if somebody has this gunshot residue on their hands,

439
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 2: it's now embedded in this wax, and then the wax

440
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 2: when tested with a difenolamine will turn like into these

441
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 2: blue flecks. And so this is a presumptive test for nitrates.

442
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 2: It's a color test. The problem with the paraffin test

443
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,199
Speaker 2: is that where there's quite a few other types of

444
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 2: substances just in our environment that we interact with that

445
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 2: also have nitrates, such as fertilizer, it's so prone to

446
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 2: false positives. You know, that's really the primary concern about it.

447
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 2: But gunshot residue is so prone to contamination, and that's

448
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 2: part of something that has to be assessed when evaluating

449
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 2: this evidence. Is there the possibility that somebody's hands are

450
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 2: contaminated as a result of being handled or other environmental

451
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 2: factors than a gunshot residue being deposited because they are

452
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 2: the shooter.

453
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 1: Well, this is our limitation. We can't test for gunshot residue.

454
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: And at the coroner's inquest, the prosecutor begins leaning pretty

455
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: heavily on witnesses, on Caroline and her disposition, and on

456
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: what people say about their relationship. So Caroline the wife

457
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: is a total wreck. At the inquest, she is upset.

458
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: There's a huge amount of people there. I'm sure it

459
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 1: was very uncomfortable for her, mostly from the black community.

460
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: She is distressed. People are comforting her, visibly anguished. She's

461
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 1: asked to take the stand. She declines, which is probably

462
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: a smart idea, and we put Nellie on the stand.

463
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: Nellie is the nine to fourteen year old, so Nellie says,

464
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: when they ask, tell us a little bit more about

465
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: what happened that night. Nellie had told the police. Initially

466
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: she didn't really see anything except she saw Albert fall

467
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 1: down the stairs and that was it. No gunshot. Her

468
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: story by the time the coroner's inquest comes along has

469
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: now changed, so she says everybody left, and the witnesses

470
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: corroborate that the people who were there hanging out and

471
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: drinking and having a couple beers took off at eleven

472
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: forty five ish. She said she went to bed shortly

473
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: after that, at eleven fifty and she saw Albert reading

474
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 1: a book in the corner of the room upstairs where

475
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: the three of them lived. So Nellie and Caroline shared

476
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: a room and Albert Davis was in a separate room.

477
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: And I know that sounds strange, but in the eighteen hundreds,

478
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: that wasn't particularly strange for people to have not only,

479
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: you know, separate beds, but separate bedrooms. Especially because there's

480
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: a young girl there. We don't know if she's related.

481
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like it was a child of theirs,

482
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: but but we don't know what the relationship was like.

483
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: So she says that Albert is reading in the corner.

484
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: She says she woke up a little bit later and

485
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 1: saw Caroline running out of the bedroom and Albert was

486
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: following her. She said nobody had a weapon, but seconds

487
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: later Albert had fallen down the stairway with blood pouring

488
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: from his mouth and his ears. And Nellie isn't reporting

489
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: a gunshot yet again, so blood mouth and ears with

490
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: a gunshot wound through the heart? Is she mistaken? Would

491
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: that have happened?

492
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely, okay, even though right now I'm only hearing

493
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 2: that the heart is what the bullet penetrated. In all likelihood,

494
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: you've also have damage to the lungs, and now you

495
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 2: have blood going into the lungs. Oftentimes it will come

496
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 2: up the trachia, will get into the oral cavity. If

497
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: the person is breathing, still alive after being shot, now

498
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 2: you can get these expiratory patterns of blood. It looks

499
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 2: like they've got a major injury to their mouth. And no,

500
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 2: it's all internal. Now the ears are a little bit

501
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 2: more difficult for me to be able to say, and

502
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: I would say Nellie's probably not seeing where that blood

503
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: is actually coming from. It's probably coming out of his

504
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 2: mouth and flowing down his face and pooling in the ears.

505
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 2: That is very, very typical.

506
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: And it's dark. If we are believing everything Nelly says

507
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: it's dark, she's in a slumber. She hasn't heard this

508
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: loud gunshot that the police outside had heard, so I

509
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: don't think she's a particularly reliable witness. I am curious

510
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: about why she has changed her story and now says

511
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: that she saw Caroline running down the steps and Albert

512
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: following her and then falling down the steps. Is it

513
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: possible to have that gap in a memory if you

514
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: witnessed a traumatizing event, including police knocking down your door

515
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: and coming in and arresting probably her mother. Figure.

516
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now she may not have given a complete statement,

517
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 2: you know, that morning of Albert's death. I am kind

518
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: of curious though about her statement, as her and Caroline

519
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: sleep in the same room and are in the same

520
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: room when she's asleep. Is she saying that Caroline runs

521
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 2: out of their room and Albert comes out of his room?

522
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: It sounds like it. It sounds like she is awoken

523
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: by Caroline running and she could see her running out

524
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: of the room and Albert following after. And then I'm

525
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: assuming Nellie must have stood at the top of the

526
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: staircase where she could see the blood. This all happened

527
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: so quickly all we know is when the police come in,

528
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: the two women are sort of in the vicinity of

529
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: the room, at the same area as where Albert was.

530
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: Another concern about Nelly's statement is here you have Caroline

531
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 2: who has very strong influence over Nelly. You know, so

532
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: that morning, let's say she's involved in Albert's death, it's

533
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 2: a homicide. She's telling Nelly, don't say anything.

534
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that the prosecutor is really trying

535
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: to figure out, with not that much evidence, whether or

536
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: not this was suicide. At the corner's end quest and

537
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: then eventually at the trial, they're asking a lot about

538
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: state of mind. I go back and forth saying, I

539
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: know jurors want a clear motive. We want to know

540
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: the story why somebody is capable of killing someone. Give

541
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: me your opinion on motive on any of these cases.

542
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: It's nine hundred percent necessary, is that right?

543
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: No, it's not necessary in order to be able to

544
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: convict somebody of homicide, because there are situations in which

545
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 2: you can never determine a motive, And there are many

546
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 2: situations in terms of all these investigations that suspects come up,

547
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: and the reason they become suspects is well, they have

548
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: a motive. Maybe it's a financial motive they had financially benefit,

549
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 2: but then you prove the case against somebody else, you know. So,

550
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: motive is something that can be very helpful when it's

551
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 2: strong and obvious that that's what caused or motivated somebody

552
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: to commit a homicide. But it also is misleading. It

553
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 2: is something that you just have to keep an open

554
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: mind about.

555
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: Well, here's some information that points us towards motive. There's

556
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: a man named Cable Nicholas, who was Albert's business partner

557
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: with a restaurant, and he says he was there that night.

558
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: Everything seemed fine, everybody left. There were four or five

559
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,239
Speaker 1: people who had a couple of beers, and then they

560
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: left at eleven thirty eleven forty five or so. But

561
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: when asked about the relationship between Albert and Caroline, Cable

562
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: says that they fought all the time and that many

563
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: times it escalated to a point where they would each

564
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: threaten the other person's life. This is a hard relationship.

565
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: And now I'm assuming that maybe this is a tick

566
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: in the box under a potential motive for homicide.

567
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: It sounds like there is a level of domestic violence

568
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 2: going on here and possibly by both parties.

569
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: Yep.

570
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: So of course that becomes a characteristic that the investigators

571
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: have to really take a look at. The evidence still

572
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 2: needs to indicate that you are dealing with homicide. And

573
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: now I'm looking at this revolver? Whose revolver is this?

574
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 2: Did Albert have it? You know? Where? Was it kept

575
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 2: in the house? What is Carolyn saying to that? What

576
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: is Nelly saying about the revolver?

577
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: I believe it is Albert's revolver. This is something that

578
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,479
Speaker 1: he kept that would have been, of course, very normal.

579
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: I can't imagine there was any man in eighteen eighty

580
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: nine in a large city who didn't have a gun

581
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: of some sort laying around and certainly not locked up.

582
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: From what I saw on the rear, there was no

583
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: question that anybody brought this revolver, that it was there already.

584
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: This would have been maybe his personal weapon. So after

585
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: hearing all of this, the coroner's in quest ends up

586
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: saying the jury for the Corner's in quest went and deliberated,

587
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: came back to the courtroom and formally charged Caroline with

588
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: the murder of Albert, which, of course Caroline just had

589
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: a total meltdown, which is not surprising. Either she's guilty

590
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: and scared to death of jail, or she's not guilty

591
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: and scared to death of jail.

592
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: Sure, now, I know you said, hey, we don't have

593
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: gunshot residue testing available, right, mm hmm, But firearms discharge

594
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: evidence is something that could be very readily seen under

595
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: the right circumstances. If this revolver was close enough to Albert.

596
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 2: I'm assuming he had a shirt on.

597
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: Yep.

598
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 2: So now you get the gases at the time the

599
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: shot is fired that come out the end of the barrel.

600
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: It partially burned gunpowder particles as well as unburnt gunpowder particles.

601
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 2: This becomes critical and we use it all the time

602
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 2: to establish how close or distant the gun was from

603
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 2: the target from Albert at the time it was fired.

604
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: And another interesting thing with a revolver is there's a

605
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 2: cylinder gap. The reason a revolver is called revolvers. There's

606
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 2: a cylinder that holds the ammunition, and when you shoot

607
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 2: this revolver, the mechanism turns that cylinder to line up

608
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: the next live round with the barrel for the next shot.

609
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: But there's a gap between that cylinder and the rest

610
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 2: of the gun. We get what's a sideways discharge of

611
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: this firearm of the gases, and if you're next to

612
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 2: a wall, you can literally get sooting on the wall,

613
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: which tells me exactly where that gun was in space

614
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 2: at the time a shot was fired. All of this

615
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 2: has to be document but most certainly Albert's shirt or

616
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 2: his skin is becoming critical for me. If he's shooting

617
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: himself in the chest. Most certainly this is going to

618
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 2: be a close range shot and something that he could

619
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 2: physically do if there is no firearms discharge residue on

620
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: his clothing or his skin around the entry wound. Now

621
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,760
Speaker 2: it's doing a determination of how far away that revolver

622
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: with that type of ammunition would be, and if it

623
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: falls off far away where you can't see it at all,

624
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: let's say it's four feet away. That's pretty far. That

625
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 2: means somebody else likely shot him, he didn't shoot himself.

626
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: See, these are the times when I feel really badly

627
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: when I keep evidence from me. He made me feel

628
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 1: guilty Sometimes, Oh.

629
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 2: Have you been holding out on me?

630
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 1: I have, and I commit to you that in about

631
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: thirty seconds, i'll tell you the information that I have

632
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 1: because I'm still confused. Despite you explaining all of that,

633
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: I'm still confused, and you're going to have to tell

634
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: me because they had the same idea. Okay, the experts,

635
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: I had the same idea you did. So I'll give

636
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: you that information. But let's talk about the defense versus

637
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: the prosecutor. Prosecutor says Caroline did it. There's no getting

638
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: around it. Their stories are inconsistent. They had a terrible relationship.

639
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: He's at the bottom of the stairs. He did not

640
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: shoot himself. They feel pretty confident. The defense says it

641
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: was either suicide or da the Nelly girl did it right.

642
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: So I don't know if Caroline is in on this defense,

643
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: but that seems very cruel to share a bedroom in

644
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: a bed with a person in your life and then

645
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: turn on them and say, well, let's use her as

646
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: you know, potentially a scapegoat in this whole situation. And

647
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: it sounds like the defense just said, whichever one works, suicide,

648
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: which I'll give you evidence of in a second, or

649
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: Nelly did it well.

650
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: And I think Nelly. And we have this age range

651
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: of nine to fourteen, I'm kind of curious at age

652
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: nine if she is response for Albert's homicide. How would

653
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 2: the courts have treated her? I doubt she's getting locked

654
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: up in prison. So here, even though the defense is

655
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: I mean, this seems so cruel that throwing Nellie under

656
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 2: the bus, so to speak, to be responsible for this homicide,

657
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: Chances are Nellie's going to get off easy if she

658
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: is the one that is pulling the trigger on Albert

659
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 2: just because of her age. She's a child. So okay,

660
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: I'm kind of sitting on the edge of my seat

661
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 2: here wanting to hear more that you've been holding back.

662
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let me tell you this a little bit first.

663
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: So in the defense, they are bringing people, of course,

664
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: onto the stand, and they bring Albert's friend, who is

665
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 1: a man named JJ Brooks. He says that Albert was

666
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: normally a happy, go lucky guy generally, but that recently,

667
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: over the past couple of days, he seemed really grim,

668
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: really down trotten, and on the night of his death,

669
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: he had been wiping tears from his eyes that whole night.

670
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,040
Speaker 1: So this all goes to the suicide column until I

671
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: tell you what happens with the gunshots. So again, is

672
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: this evidence this goes to state of mind? Right? He

673
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: was really upset that night and had not been well

674
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: for a couple of days.

675
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,919
Speaker 2: Well, that's very important. My phrase that I say over

676
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: and over is victimology is huge. And so now getting

677
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,280
Speaker 2: some information about Albert's state of mind is a critical

678
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 2: part of assessing this case. Now it's not definitive, but

679
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 2: this is where in some of these situations a profiler

680
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: can be pulled in on the case in order to

681
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 2: do what is called basically a psychological autopsy. And now

682
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: you get an expert evaluating the behaviors of the deceased

683
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 2: prior to their death to determine is there a pattern

684
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: that has been seen in other people who have killed themselves.

685
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 2: And so now I am very curious to hear more.

686
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: Here it comes. One of the doctors who testified for

687
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: the state says he did not believe that Albert Davis

688
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: could have shot himself through the heart with this revolver

689
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: because they bring out Albert's shirt and there are no

690
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: burns or gunpower residue. But the defense put multiple firearms

691
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 1: experts on the stand who said they tested by shooting

692
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: through a canvas bag three inches away and it didn't

693
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: set fire to the bag. There was no burning around

694
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: the hole around the entry So what do you think

695
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: about that? There didn't appear to be gunshot residue going

696
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: through the shirt, so.

697
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: You know, the lack of any sooting or gunpowder does

698
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 2: tell me, Okay, this revolver was at a distance in

699
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: which that type of firearms evidence discharge evidence is not

700
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,760
Speaker 2: coming in contact with Albert's shirt. What I'm not hearing

701
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: from these experts yet is, well, did they do a

702
00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: distance determination, that is, taking this revolver with the same

703
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 2: type of ammunition and shooting it at fabric for a

704
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 2: close contact near contact twelve inches away? This is how

705
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: we do this to see when this firearms discharge evidence

706
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 2: no longer lands around the entry hall on the fabric.

707
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: And now that is very informative the idea of this shirt,

708
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 2: Albert's shirt catching fire. When a gun is fired, there

709
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: is a muzzle flash. You know, there is something that

710
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 2: could ignite something. But I haven't seen that happen, you know,

711
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: with contact or near contact type of shots, and I've

712
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 2: seen that a lot. So I'm not sure why they're

713
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 2: putting so much weight on whether or not the fabric

714
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: itself had been caught on fire? Is that am I interpreting? What?

715
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 2: You said, right.

716
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: The defense is saying it's possible to shoot into a

717
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 1: shirt or anything from just three inches without leaving a mark,

718
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: meaning he could pull the gun out and shoot himself.

719
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: What it sounds like to me is a big disagreement

720
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,760
Speaker 1: on whether or not you had to be a certain

721
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: distance away in order to leave any kind of a

722
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: mark on the shirt. And what they're saying is they

723
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 1: did an experiment of three inches, which I mean, if

724
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: you think of him, he's probably an average height, average

725
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: wingspan on his arm. I don't know if he's trying

726
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: to shoot himself. How far away he put the gun,

727
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, just from this from marking,

728
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: do you feel like there is just no way he

729
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: could have done this himself without leaving some kind of

730
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 1: residue because it would have been close. It would have

731
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: been at least a half a foot, I would guess.

732
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 2: Well, it's dawning on me. So let's think of the

733
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 2: suicide theory. Right, When people kill themselves with a gun,

734
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 2: they typically put the muzzle in contact, whether it's their head,

735
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 2: their chest, and pull the trigger so the bullet and

736
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 2: these gases go into the wound itself. It's when the

737
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 2: gun is pulled back several inches. That's when he's start

738
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 2: to see the gases come out of the gun and

739
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 2: go around the wound and then becomes more disperse the

740
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 2: further back you are. So this is now we're going

741
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: back to. Autopsy is so critical in terms of what

742
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: was the wounding pattern on the entry wound. Was there,

743
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: let's say, stellate tearing of this skin. So when these

744
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 2: gases go into the body and these contact style shots,

745
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 2: those gases have to go somewhere, and those gases expand rapidly,

746
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 2: and there are times when you can get the tearing

747
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,720
Speaker 2: of the skin as the gases are escaping back out

748
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 2: this opening in the wound that was just created, not

749
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 2: all the time, and especially in the chest area. You

750
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 2: see it more with the scalp in the chest area.

751
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 2: But also the clothing. Is there evidence of tearing on

752
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 2: the clothing from these gases escaping back So that's part

753
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 2: of what I would be wanting to see to determine. Okay,

754
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,399
Speaker 2: this looks like it's a contact shot, and that would

755
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,720
Speaker 2: be entirely consistent with a suicide versus somebody a couple

756
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 2: of feet away or four feet away under the homicide scenario.

757
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 2: The other thing, men generally shoot themselves in the.

758
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: Head, right. I was thinking about that.

759
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 2: It is not definitive. You can't use it to eliminate

760
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 2: whether or not Albert could have killed himself, but it

761
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 2: is something that makes me go pause, going, well, yeah,

762
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: why the chest.

763
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: Is it possible that a bullet from a revolver in

764
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: eighteen eighty nine was constructed differently so that maybe it

765
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: was a little bit more like a shotgun kind of

766
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: pellet thing where it would have spread out a little

767
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: bit more than what we're used to, so that the

768
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 1: actual pattern would look different than what we're used to

769
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 1: with a revolver in twenty twenty two. Is that possible?

770
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 2: The primary characteristic of the revolver back then that I'm

771
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,959
Speaker 2: just now thinking about is this a black powder revolve.

772
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 2: We rarely see those. I've never had a homicide case

773
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 2: using black powder that I can recall. If that would

774
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 2: change anything about the firearms discharge evidence, maybe, but I'd

775
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 2: literally have to do some research on that.

776
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing that I'm wondering about. That comment

777
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: where the other multiple firearms experts said that a shot

778
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: could be fired into a canvas bag, which I'm assuming

779
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: they're saying is flammable and be the easiest way to

780
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: track gunpower residue or burns at a distance of three

781
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: inches without setting fire to the cloth, so clearly saying

782
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 1: it would be a clear shot. I'm just wondering if

783
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: there is a certain kind of residue that they were

784
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: looking for. It doesn't sound consistent to a suicide to me.

785
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: Still seems clean, very clean. You know, they passed around

786
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: the shirt. Nobody in the newspapers had anything odd to

787
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: say about it. It was just a shot through his shirt.

788
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, at least with how these experts are testifying and

789
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: getting so information about the lack of firearms discharge evidence

790
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 2: on the shirt absent that contact shot. So as I'm

791
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 2: hearing and kind of really mulling over everything about this case,

792
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 2: the evidence, the statements right now, I think I'm just

793
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 2: like they were back then in terms of are we

794
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: dealing with a homicide or suicide, I'm not hearing anything

795
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 2: that is definitive for me to say I can conclude

796
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 2: it's a homicide or I can conclude it's a suicide.

797
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 2: I go back to where Albert is in the house,

798
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 2: it's suicide. Why they're at the bottom of the stairs.

799
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 2: And again it's not definitive, but why not sitting in

800
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 2: a chair? Why not in the bedroom? That starts to

801
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: make me go, you know what? That seems I could

802
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,240
Speaker 2: be more consistent under the homicide theory than suicide.

803
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: I agree with that. And I also think that they

804
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: were equally confused at this criminal I think that they

805
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 1: heard the inconsistencies in Nelly's story in Caroline's story Caroline

806
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 1: said he didn't even come upstairs that night. I don't

807
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 1: know what happened to him. Now, the inconsistency of those

808
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,439
Speaker 1: stories could be trauma, it could be asleep, it could

809
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: be Caroline drank more than she admitted to. I don't

810
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:22,839
Speaker 1: know if that's something that can definitively point to homicide.

811
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,280
Speaker 1: But I do think that death threats in a terrible

812
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: marriage maybe check off a little bit on the murder side. Also,

813
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like there's a lot more

814
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 1: leaning towards murder than towards suicide at this point.

815
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 2: And there's no information that Caroline had any injuries on her.

816
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: Nope, not a one, okay, And I will tell you

817
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: most women would have known how to use a revolver

818
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds, and I think a lot of

819
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: women would have carried a revolver too, So with a

820
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 1: revolver in a small area, you don't have to be

821
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 1: a great shot to hit the heart, right.

822
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, none of that is anything that I would

823
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 2: ever be weighing. I'm just kind of wondering. There are

824
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 2: these homicide cases where the woman has just had enough

825
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: abuse and has decided I'm taking him out right, This

826
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 2: sounds like that could be the circumstances.

827
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: I think you're having another epic fight and she picks

828
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: up a gun that was probably lying nearby, like they

829
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: usually were.

830
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:20,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that would explain why Albert is at the bottom

831
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:25,320
Speaker 2: of the stairs under a homicide theory, and why Caroline's

832
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 2: very vague about what happened.

833
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 1: And I will say this because someone listening might say, well,

834
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: why doesn't she just say if this is self defense,

835
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: which is probably what it is, why doesn't she just

836
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: say that, because in eighteen eighty nine, a black woman

837
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,439
Speaker 1: saying it was self defense doesn't matter. Yeah, they would

838
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: throw her in jail no matter what. And what's interesting

839
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: is the jury was just as confused as you and

840
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 1: I are. She was convicted even though the defense said,

841
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: there's no definitive evidence of this. You guys don't have

842
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: any forensics. There's just nothing that you can say. You're

843
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 1: speculating three inches versus you know, shooting from far away.

844
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 1: It's all speculation. They still convicted her, but they convicted

845
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: her of second degree murder, and the defense attorney said,

846
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: please give her leniency. You all haven't proved anything. I know,

847
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: you're convicting her, and the judge said, okay, and he

848
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: gave her ten years.

849
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 2: Okay. Now, I'm not sure in Pennsylvania how the statutes

850
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 2: differentiate second from first, right, but generally that second degree

851
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 2: murder lines up with the jury the judge determining this

852
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 2: was in a heat of the moment scenario, right versus

853
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 2: a planned homicide, and the crime scene itself tends to

854
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 2: suggest that type of case.

855
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: So crime of passion. And I'm going to read the

856
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 1: exact quote because I thought it was actually really interesting

857
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: because I'm sure this is a white judge. The attorney

858
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: reportedly asked the judge for leniency, and the judge replied

859
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: that he would be as merciful as the law provides,

860
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: and that's why he gave her tenures. So obviously, what

861
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 1: they heard in that courtroom was a case that was

862
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: compelling for act of passion, self defense, something that was

863
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,240
Speaker 1: not planned. This was not a cold hearted murder. According

864
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: to everybody in that courtroom. It sounds like.

865
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if it really was a homicide, I would

866
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 2: agree based on the circumstances that, you know, the relationship

867
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 2: issues that tends to suggest this just blew up that night.

868
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 2: Something caused an argument. Now, maybe they were both going

869
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:31,919
Speaker 2: for the gun. Maybe he had the gun and she's

870
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 2: you know, taking it away. But under the homicide scenario

871
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: that makes sense. You know Albert's state of mind though,

872
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 2: kind of that bothers me a little bit. Leading up,

873
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 2: I know, the friend is saying, you know, he's crying.

874
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 2: He seems really depressed.

875
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: Maybe she's breaking up with him and he knows it.

876
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 1: Maybe she's cheating on him and he knows it. Maybe

877
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,760
Speaker 1: he knows she's getting ready to walk out and he's upset,

878
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: and then it turns into this who knows. What I

879
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: do think is interesting, though, is if this is self defense,

880
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: wouldn't it be easier for her to shoot him in

881
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:07,839
Speaker 1: the back, Like, is there an opportunity where his back's

882
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,240
Speaker 1: turn to shoot him? Rather than shooting him in the chest.

883
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 2: Okay, so when I consider a scenario which would be

884
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 2: classically deemed self defense, that would indicate that Caroline actively

885
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 2: being threatened at that moment versus the domestic violence that

886
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 2: has been occurring, and she decides while he's asleep, I'm

887
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: going to put one in the back of his head.

888
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 2: That for me, is not a self defense in the moment. Obviously,

889
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 2: the reason for it is kind of this potentially life

890
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: preserving act to take out your abuser. But even today

891
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 2: you will see if it's that scenario, even though he's

892
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 2: abusing her, she is committing a homicide without being threatened herself.

893
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: Right, So she apparently served ten years and then vanished,

894
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: which is not surprising. She might not have vanished at all.

895
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,879
Speaker 1: She was never tracked down. Again, every time we do

896
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: a story on someone of color, either a perpetrator or

897
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: a victim, we know so little. I think that you

898
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: did a great job trying to sort out the different

899
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: details that we have. I don't always have the information

900
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: that you need, but I do think that no matter

901
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 1: what happened, this was a terrible relationship that just ended

902
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 1: in tragedy. Absolutely well, I'm excited to bring you the

903
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 1: next case, which I think will be very difficult to untangle,

904
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: but we'll have a good ending, as good as we

905
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: can have in these crime cases. I think this will

906
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: be one of the more interesting ones for you.

907
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm looking forward to it.

908
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

909
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactly rightmedia

910
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 2: dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

911
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

912
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

913
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: Are mixing in. Engineer is Ryo Baum.

914
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

915
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

916
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hart Stark and Daniel Kramer.

917
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

918
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:15,760
Speaker 1: Bared Bones pod.

919
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,760
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

920
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

921
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

922
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,439
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923
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Speaker 1: Cases is also available now