WEBVTT - So Many Things Could Have Gone Wrong...

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<v Speaker 1>So our next guest started calling into the radio show,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was practically a child, and we called him

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<v Speaker 1>Tim the Lawyer, and he was a lawyer, and he

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<v Speaker 1>would call in and correct us when we were wrong,

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<v Speaker 1>or helping us out when we didn't understand something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>And he was a fan favorite. And that was many,

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<v Speaker 1>many years ago. And his more grown up name is

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<v Speaker 1>full name is Tim Sandifer. He's actually the vice president

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<v Speaker 1>of legal Affairs at the Goldwater Institute. He's an adjunct

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<v Speaker 1>scholar whatever that is, with the Cato Institute. And he

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<v Speaker 1>writes books, including this new book Proclaiming Liberty John Adams,

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<v Speaker 1>Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence by Timothy Sandefer.

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<v Speaker 1>I hold a signed copy in my hand. I started

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<v Speaker 1>listening to it last week. I got the audio version.

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<v Speaker 2>Tim. Welcome to the Armstrong and Getty Show.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks for having this old, worn out old man on

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<v Speaker 3>your show. Jack.

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<v Speaker 2>How old were you when you started calling in? You

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<v Speaker 2>had to be young.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, yeah, well it must have been twenty twenty five

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<v Speaker 3>years ago or something like that, so I was in

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<v Speaker 3>my mid to late twenties.

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<v Speaker 1>Cool, I'm listening to your book. Do you consider listening

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<v Speaker 1>to books counting as reading it.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, yes, definitely, Otherwise I would have to say that

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<v Speaker 3>I'd read half as many books as I actually have.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know some people don't count it that way.

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<v Speaker 1>I actually feel like I retain information better hearing it

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<v Speaker 1>than reading it. I know different people's brains are different

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<v Speaker 1>on that, but I started listening.

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<v Speaker 3>To different kinds of books too, you know, long, long

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<v Speaker 3>fiction books like the great classics like Victor Hugo or

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<v Speaker 3>Charles Dickens. I would probably never get through those on paper.

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<v Speaker 3>I much prefer and they were actually written with the

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<v Speaker 3>intention to be read out loud when they were originally

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<v Speaker 3>published in the nineteenth century, so I think there's nothing

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<v Speaker 3>wrong with that. However, if you listen to the audio

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<v Speaker 3>of my book, you're missing out on one hundred pages

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<v Speaker 3>of some of the finest footnotes.

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<v Speaker 1>Not to get distracted, but I'm halfway through Ulysses for

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<v Speaker 1>the second time.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh poor thing. It's awesome. It's my favorite thing I

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<v Speaker 2>ever read.

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<v Speaker 3>Why would you do that to yourself?

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<v Speaker 1>It took my whole life to get to where I

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<v Speaker 1>could read it, though I started it like ten times

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<v Speaker 1>throughout my life and gotten like a chapter in and thought,

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<v Speaker 1>this is the ridiculous and a wasted time. Somehow I

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<v Speaker 1>reached the point by like training my brain through harder

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<v Speaker 1>and harder literature that I now can fully enjoy it.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's the greatest thing ever. Anyway, I don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to get off on that.

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<v Speaker 1>So coming up on July the fourth, it will be

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<v Speaker 1>the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>signing of the Declaration.

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<v Speaker 2>No, not the we signed it on January.

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<v Speaker 1>We voted for it on July second, because I know

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<v Speaker 1>John Adams thought that would be the date that would

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<v Speaker 1>be remembered throughout history. They voted for independence on July

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<v Speaker 1>the second, seventeen seventy six. They signed it on the

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<v Speaker 1>fourth of July. You've got this book out this year,

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<v Speaker 1>in this year where we're all taking a look at

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<v Speaker 1>the founding proclaimed proclaiming liberty.

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<v Speaker 2>What's it all about? Tim?

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<v Speaker 3>I wanted to tell the story of the origins of

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<v Speaker 3>the Declaration of Independence, and that includes a lot includes

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of things that are frequently left out. For example,

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<v Speaker 3>in the seventeenth century in colonial America, there was a

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<v Speaker 3>rebellion against Great Britain that a lot of people don't

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<v Speaker 3>talk about. One hundred years before the Declaration of Independence,

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<v Speaker 3>Britain went through or England at the time went through

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<v Speaker 3>a civil war, and that civil war had effects in

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<v Speaker 3>colonial America, and in fact, the King of England created

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<v Speaker 3>a dictatorship in the New England States and put a

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<v Speaker 3>single dictator named Edward Andros in charge of what he

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<v Speaker 3>called the Dominion of New England, who imposed taxes without

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<v Speaker 3>legislative consent and all this sort of thing, and Massachusetts

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<v Speaker 3>settlers rose up and overthrew him, and people don't know

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<v Speaker 3>about that story. I also wanted to talk about.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know that story, and I've read a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of founding stuff, so that's really interesting.

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<v Speaker 3>And I wanted to talk about what specific things Parliament

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<v Speaker 3>was doing to the Americans that take them off. I

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<v Speaker 3>wanted to go through the declaration claused by clause and

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<v Speaker 3>say what each of these grievances specifically refers to, because

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<v Speaker 3>I think a lot of people don't know when they

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<v Speaker 3>read the declaration what exactly is being discussed. When the

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<v Speaker 3>declaration says like he has refused his assent to laws

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<v Speaker 3>that are wholesome and necessary, what laws were they talk?

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<v Speaker 3>So I go through each of them and talk about

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<v Speaker 3>that and I want to put the whole story in

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<v Speaker 3>a narrative story, and in telling it not like facts

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<v Speaker 3>and dates, but telling like about Jefferson and Adams and

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<v Speaker 3>their friendship and how they grew together through the summer

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<v Speaker 3>of seventeen seventy six.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's fantastic.

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<v Speaker 1>I wish I said earlier on if you heard me

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<v Speaker 1>say this, I wish I'd have had you as my

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<v Speaker 1>eighth grade history teacher, or any migrates. It's amazing how

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<v Speaker 1>many teachers, you know, and I you know you're doing

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<v Speaker 1>your best, can take such an exciting story and make

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<v Speaker 1>it so dry. Yeah, because the whole founding story, it's

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<v Speaker 1>really a miracle that it turned out the way it did,

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<v Speaker 1>isn't it.

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<v Speaker 3>It really is. There are so many moments when things

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<v Speaker 3>could have all gone wrong, and just almost by accident

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<v Speaker 3>or by because you know, the slowness of communications back

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<v Speaker 3>then was a big factor. So for example, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>by the time the British finally got around to sending

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<v Speaker 3>a commission to negotiate with the American colonist, that commission

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<v Speaker 3>did not arrive until ten days after independence had already

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<v Speaker 3>been declared, And so all these little things that could

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<v Speaker 3>have changed the outcome that just didn't. It's really remarkable

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<v Speaker 3>when you go through that list. Yeah, it is unfortunate

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<v Speaker 3>that history teachers sometimes make the story boring, which is

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<v Speaker 3>really remarkable because it's such an exciting story. And I

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<v Speaker 3>was very lucky that my history teachers, for the most part,

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<v Speaker 3>really were good about talking about these things in a

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<v Speaker 3>way that really made you think, well, what I have

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<v Speaker 3>done if I had lived back then? And I think

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<v Speaker 3>that's really the key to understanding and appreciating this history.

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<v Speaker 1>Ah, that's a good way to look at it. Man,

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<v Speaker 1>there's so many different directions I could go with this.

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<v Speaker 1>I know you're such a big fan of the Declaration

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<v Speaker 1>of Independence. Where does it rank as our founding documents?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, that is one of the arguments I make in

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<v Speaker 3>the book. So if you ask most lawyers today, unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 3>most lawyers would say that the Declaration of Independence really

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<v Speaker 3>isn't a law.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, Justice.

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<v Speaker 3>Barrett, when she was going through a confirmation hearings, was

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<v Speaker 3>directly asked about this and she said, the Declaration of

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<v Speaker 3>Independence is not law, and that's completely wrong. Of course,

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<v Speaker 3>the Declaration of Independence's law. It's part of our constitutional documents.

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<v Speaker 3>There are four of what they call organic laws of

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<v Speaker 3>the United States. That's the Articles of Confederation, the Constitution,

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<v Speaker 3>the Northwest Ordinance, which organized the territories in the Northwest

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<v Speaker 3>United States, and the Declaration of Independence. And I think

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<v Speaker 3>it's important for lawyers particularly and judges to appreciate that

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<v Speaker 3>the Declaration isn't just a statement of rhetoric. It creates

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<v Speaker 3>a rule about how American government ought to operate, and

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<v Speaker 3>that is to respect the rights of life, liberty, and

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<v Speaker 3>the pursuit of happiness. And the classical liberal political philosophy

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<v Speaker 3>that informed the writing of the Constitution. And unfortunately, lots

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<v Speaker 3>of lawyers and judges today shrug at that, and they

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<v Speaker 3>don't care about those principles, or they don't think that

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<v Speaker 3>they're binding, or they think that they're just matters of opinion.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not a matter of opinion. It is a fact

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<v Speaker 3>of the war. That all men are created equal, that

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<v Speaker 3>they are endowed with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

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<v Speaker 3>These are not just statements. These are as true as

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<v Speaker 3>the idea that two molecules of hydrogen and one molecule

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<v Speaker 3>of oxygen I mean atom makes a molecule of water

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<v Speaker 3>absolutely a verifiable fact about existence.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to get off on why some of

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<v Speaker 1>those scholars or teachers might want to downgrade the Declaration

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<v Speaker 1>of Independence because they want to because they're neo Marxist

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<v Speaker 1>who want to destroy the country. Won't get off on

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<v Speaker 1>that does. What did the Founders mean by pursuit of happiness?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, they meant a lot of different things, but the

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<v Speaker 3>most important thing that's often neglected today is economic freedom.

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<v Speaker 3>The Founders, by pursuit of happiness, they meant your right

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<v Speaker 3>to put your skills and knowledge to work, to provide

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<v Speaker 3>for yourself and your family, and to build up as

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<v Speaker 3>fortune if you want to, to care for your economic circumstances.

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<v Speaker 3>They understood that a lot of people came to America

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<v Speaker 3>with nothing to their name. A lot of colonists had

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<v Speaker 3>arrived here with nothing, and they had put their skills

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<v Speaker 3>to work and built up businesses to provide for themselves

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<v Speaker 3>and their families or farms or whatever. That's the foremost

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<v Speaker 3>thing that Thomas Jefferson means when he uses that phrase

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<v Speaker 3>pursuit of happiness. A month before the Declaration of in attendance,

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<v Speaker 3>the Virginia Declaration of Rights had been published, the very

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<v Speaker 3>first bill of rights in the world. And it says

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<v Speaker 3>every person has a right to pursue and obtain happiness

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<v Speaker 3>and safety to acquire property for that purpose, and that's

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<v Speaker 3>what they're referring to. Unfortunately, a lot of pseudo scholars say, well,

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<v Speaker 3>the Founders didn't believe in property, that's why they took

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<v Speaker 3>out the word property and said pursuit of happiness instead.

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<v Speaker 2>That's nonsense.

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<v Speaker 3>Of course, the Founders believed in the essential importance of

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<v Speaker 3>property rights. But the pursuit of happiness is how people

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<v Speaker 3>who don't have property acquire it, right, It's freedom of opportunity.

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<v Speaker 3>That's what they meant by pursuit of happiness.

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<v Speaker 1>That's I want to talk about that specifically. First, I

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<v Speaker 1>got to tell you about Simply Safe. We'll be back

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<v Speaker 1>And all those things need to happen for you to

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<v Speaker 1>safe like simply Safe. The whole pursuit of happiness thing

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<v Speaker 1>and uh equal opportunity? What where were the founders on

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<v Speaker 1>equal outcomes? Which seems to be such you know, a

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<v Speaker 1>big thing in modern America that there are if there

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<v Speaker 1>are people that have more than others, then clearly we've

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<v Speaker 1>got some sort of systemic problem.

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<v Speaker 3>They were very firmly against that idea. You know, it's

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<v Speaker 3>funny that this idea gets floated around today as if

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<v Speaker 3>it's some new modern idea that nobody's ever thought of before.

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<v Speaker 3>But the Founders are very familiar with this idea. Plato

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<v Speaker 3>had written about it thousands of your years before. And

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<v Speaker 3>the Founders Founding fathers sounded disgusting and the and they

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<v Speaker 3>and very dangerous. You know, if you if you redistribute

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<v Speaker 3>property rights because you think that you're going to make

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<v Speaker 3>everybody everybody else's friend, the result is actually going to

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<v Speaker 3>be disaster. Nobody's going to care for their property. People

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<v Speaker 3>are not going to put their efforts, their best efforts

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<v Speaker 3>into their work, and they're going to resort to politics,

0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:22.600
<v Speaker 3>which is to say, coercion instead of negotiation and bargaining

0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:26.600
<v Speaker 3>and exchange. So Jefferson it believed that there were certain

0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.600
<v Speaker 3>existing laws about private property at the time that were

0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:33.280
<v Speaker 3>obstructions to economic freedom, and he wanted to get rid

0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:35.960
<v Speaker 3>of those. And so sometimes you'll read things that they

0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:40.400
<v Speaker 3>write about how it's important to create better opportunity for

0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:42.280
<v Speaker 3>the poor and things, but that was how they wanted

0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.040
<v Speaker 3>to do it. They wanted to get the roadblocks out

0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:48.400
<v Speaker 3>of the way. But the idea of equal outcomes, they

0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:50.360
<v Speaker 3>were very familiar with it, and they rejected it as

0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.360
<v Speaker 3>contrary to the fundamental rights they were fighting for. The

0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:55.439
<v Speaker 3>right to pursue happiness means that if I go out

0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:58.240
<v Speaker 3>and I work hard and I develop a fortune, or

0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.520
<v Speaker 3>if my father goes out and works hard leaves me

0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.280
<v Speaker 3>a fortune, then I have the right to those things.

0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:04.920
<v Speaker 3>Nobody has the right to take them away. You know.

0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:08.400
<v Speaker 3>The other day, what's their name? That socialist congressman.

0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:08.400
<v Speaker 2>From New York?

0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:09.360
<v Speaker 3>His name, I can never remember.

0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:10.560
<v Speaker 2>Aoc she was saying.

0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, she was like, well, you can't earn a billion dollars,

0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:16.520
<v Speaker 3>and Tim popples to earn a billion dollars with Well,

0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:18.840
<v Speaker 3>I didn't earn my lungs and my liver and my

0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.760
<v Speaker 3>heart either, But they belong to me, and you're sure

0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:23.560
<v Speaker 3>as hell better not think that you have a right

0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.440
<v Speaker 3>to them because you need them or something. Absolutely not.

0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.840
<v Speaker 3>Of course, not their mine, because I didn't hurt anybody

0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.520
<v Speaker 3>to acquire them, and so that was the view of

0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:34.600
<v Speaker 3>the Founding Fathers. As long as you didn't commit a

0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.440
<v Speaker 3>crime or something, then that property is yours and nobody

0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:38.800
<v Speaker 3>has the right to take it from you, and if

0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:41.560
<v Speaker 3>they try to, you're setting the rules up for violent

0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:42.200
<v Speaker 3>civil war.

0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:44.439
<v Speaker 2>The book is Proclaiming Liberty.

0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:46.360
<v Speaker 1>If you want to learn more about this from Tim

0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:49.199
<v Speaker 1>sand for Tim can you stick around for a while, Yeah,

0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:51.240
<v Speaker 1>because I got a question I've been wanting to ask

0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.480
<v Speaker 1>you about this, all this kind of stuff and a

0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.560
<v Speaker 1>few other things that will fit in with the news

0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.360
<v Speaker 1>of the day around this issue and our Founding Fathers.

0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:01.359
<v Speaker 2>All on the way. Stay right here.

0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:12.080
<v Speaker 1>Hey, I downloaded the audio version of Proclaiming Liberty. Maybe

0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:13.920
<v Speaker 1>you want to get the paper version if that's what

0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:18.280
<v Speaker 1>you're into, uh, or you read done Ken Kindle or

0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.160
<v Speaker 1>whatever you do. Proclaiming Liberty by our friend Timothy sand

0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.520
<v Speaker 1>for John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence.

0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.720
<v Speaker 1>Tim is joining us today. So, Tim, I was talking

0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:30.800
<v Speaker 1>to a super smart friend of mine years ago and

0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:32.800
<v Speaker 1>all this sort of stuff like we are, and I

0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.960
<v Speaker 1>remember we were having the classic conversation of if the

0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.079
<v Speaker 1>founders were you know, if you dug them up and

0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:41.480
<v Speaker 1>could re animated Mursa and they were alive today, what

0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:45.720
<v Speaker 1>would they have to say? And his thought was he

0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:47.600
<v Speaker 1>thinks the first thing they would say, oh my god,

0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:48.319
<v Speaker 1>it worked.

0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.960
<v Speaker 2>What do you think. Yeah, well, that's not a bad answer.

0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:55.719
<v Speaker 3>Jefferson I don't think would have said that. Jefferson was

0:13:55.760 --> 0:14:00.000
<v Speaker 3>confident that it would work, and he believed in uh,

0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:03.440
<v Speaker 3>he had confidence in change. He thought people would go

0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.240
<v Speaker 3>wrong and make a lot of mistakes, but that eventually

0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.120
<v Speaker 3>they would realize their errors, and that there was really

0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.800
<v Speaker 3>no better option than to trust the people of the

0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:16.439
<v Speaker 3>country to run the country themselves, because you can't come

0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:18.520
<v Speaker 3>up with a system that is going to protect the

0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:22.240
<v Speaker 3>people from themselves. That's a futile undertaking. John Adams he

0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:24.560
<v Speaker 3>was a little bit more cynical about things, and he

0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:30.720
<v Speaker 3>was very worried that certain forces would undermine the American

0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:35.920
<v Speaker 3>constitutional system. And you know, it's so impossible to really

0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.920
<v Speaker 3>compare their vision with hours because there's been so much

0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.160
<v Speaker 3>change that it's like there's a old saying the past

0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.720
<v Speaker 3>is another country, and so that's really the way to

0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:48.960
<v Speaker 3>think about it. However, I do think they would be

0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:52.040
<v Speaker 3>The one thing that they feared most of all is

0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:57.240
<v Speaker 3>that Americans would get so rich and so comfortable that

0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:02.400
<v Speaker 3>they would care, oh, where you're going to seek to

0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:06.480
<v Speaker 3>care about the principles that that underlie the system, right,

0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:10.320
<v Speaker 3>And that they would care more about their next fried

0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:14.200
<v Speaker 3>chicken meal than about whether or not Iran gets a

0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.240
<v Speaker 3>nuclear weapon. That you know, that sort of thing was

0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:18.920
<v Speaker 3>really concerned them because that's what had destroyed Rome, right,

0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.040
<v Speaker 3>and they were afraid that something like that would happen here.

0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, that seems to ring true. Does it their next

0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:26.960
<v Speaker 1>next Netflix special or whatever? I was watching the President

0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:29.960
<v Speaker 1>meeting with Chi yesterday in Tianaman Square there in front

0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:31.280
<v Speaker 1>of the Great Hall, and they.

0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.400
<v Speaker 2>Got giant portrait of Mao up there.

0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:37.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean, the fact that the doesn't get more remarked

0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:43.040
<v Speaker 1>upon to me is amazing. If if our experiment doesn't

0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.840
<v Speaker 1>continue to work, the whole world could end up like

0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:47.480
<v Speaker 1>communist China so easily.

0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there's no there's nothing. We have been given, no

0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:55.880
<v Speaker 3>guarantees that the civilizations of Egypt and Rome were not

0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:56.640
<v Speaker 3>also given.

0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:57.440
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:15:57.640 --> 0:15:59.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's absolutely amazing, And that's why I think books

0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:04.480
<v Speaker 1>like yours proclaiming liberty are so important. I know, Fourth

0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:06.800
<v Speaker 1>of July is one of your favorite holidays. Are you

0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.200
<v Speaker 1>enjoying taking in and all the stuff leading up to it?

0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:10.040
<v Speaker 3>Oh?

0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Yes, absolutely so.

0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:13.360
<v Speaker 3>My wife and I have this little tradition where we

0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.920
<v Speaker 3>spend the July fourth in a different state every year,

0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:18.920
<v Speaker 3>and so this state, we're gonna spend the whole week

0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:23.520
<v Speaker 3>in Charlottesville, in Thomas cools hometown and hang out with

0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:24.680
<v Speaker 3>mister Jefferson himself.

0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:26.320
<v Speaker 2>Jefferson your favorite founding father.

0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.200
<v Speaker 3>Oh yes, Jefferson is, with all due respect to my wife,

0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:35.720
<v Speaker 3>my favorite person who has ever lived in history. And

0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:37.960
<v Speaker 3>told I said this in front of her a while back,

0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.080
<v Speaker 3>and she smiled and nodded and said me too.

0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.160
<v Speaker 2>So wow, well, and that's why you toured together.

0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.800
<v Speaker 1>Right of course to me too, I like him better

0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:51.760
<v Speaker 1>than you also, so we're even. That is fantastic. That

0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.360
<v Speaker 1>is a funny note and a great way to end.

0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:58.680
<v Speaker 1>That's really great, Tim Sanderfer. The book is proclaiming liberty.

0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:00.720
<v Speaker 1>You can listen to it, you can read it in paper,

0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.480
<v Speaker 1>you can read it on kindle, or however you do it.

0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:04.960
<v Speaker 1>Thanks Tim, appreciate your time today.

0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:07.880
<v Speaker 2>Thank you Jack. That is really funny.

0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:13.960
<v Speaker 1>You get two lawyers who are super into personal freedom

0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:16.879
<v Speaker 1>and property rights and all that sort of stuff, and

0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.760
<v Speaker 1>they each look at each other's eyes and say, my

0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.320
<v Speaker 1>favorite person who's ever lived is Thomas Jefferson.

0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.960
<v Speaker 2>Me too. That is great.

0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:29.439
<v Speaker 1>Armstrong and Getty