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Speaker 1: Film Spotting is presented by Regal Unlimited, the all you

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Speaker 1: code film spot twenty five. That's film Spot twenty five

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Speaker 1: to receive your discount. What kind of a show you

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Speaker 1: guys putting on here today?

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Speaker 2: You're not interested in art?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 2: No, Look, we're going to do this thing.

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Speaker 4: We're going to have a.

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Speaker 3: Conversation from Chicago. This is film Spotting. I'm Adam Kempenard.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Josh Larson.

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Speaker 5: My maker told his tale.

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Speaker 2: I'll turn you nine. Guermo del Toros. Frankenstein comes to

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Speaker 2: Netflix this weekend. It stars Oscar Isaac as the mad

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Speaker 2: doctor and Jacob Elordi as the creature they told their tales.

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Speaker 2: Now we have our.

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Speaker 1: Review, plus Nia Dacosta's Ibsen update, heada, Sidney Sweeney in

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Speaker 1: the boxing biopic Christi, and more.

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Speaker 3: It's all ahead on film Spotting now.

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Speaker 2: Run.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to film Spotting, Josh. I've learned that Mary Shelley

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Speaker 1: was living in Bath in the South of England when

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Speaker 1: she wrote Frankenstein. That's only a day's drive from your

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Speaker 1: current haunt in Saint Andrews, Scotland. I am sure this

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Speaker 1: informed your viewing of the new Guermo del Toro adaptation.

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Speaker 2: That's just the start of it, Adam. I have to

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Speaker 2: give you a little Scotland report here. I had forgotten

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Speaker 2: how much of Frankenstein is actually sat in Scotland until

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Speaker 2: just rereading the book a couple of months ago. Here's

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Speaker 2: how I viewed Frankenstein. Get this so, Dundee, a town

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Speaker 2: just a little further from me and in Scotland. Found

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Speaker 2: out just last week that is where Mary Shelley would

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Speaker 2: go to visit family when she was younger, and that

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Speaker 2: site on the River Tay actually inspired some of the

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Speaker 2: atmosphere in the landscape and the setting for Frankenstein. Guess

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Speaker 2: where Debbie and I along with listener Ben Page. Ben's

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Speaker 2: a filmmaker and puppeteer, I met here in St Andrews.

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Speaker 2: The three of us went to see Frankenstein Dundee. I'm

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Speaker 2: not kidding you, so yeah, I had the local infusion

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Speaker 2: in my blood while watching this movie.

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Speaker 1: Do you think Mary Shelley also saw movies at that theater?

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Speaker 1: I don't think it was around Okay, well, you were

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Speaker 1: walking in her footsteps. So that essence, that aura should

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Speaker 1: definitely contribute to our conversation about del Toros Frankenstein, which

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Speaker 1: is coming up in just a moment. Also Heda another

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century literary adaptation. Nia Dacosta's latest is an update

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Speaker 1: of Henrik Ibsen's eighteen ninety one play Headed Gabbler.

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Speaker 3: Now I didn't see it.

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Speaker 1: You're going to talk about that one, But of course

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Speaker 1: I've seen productions of a House. I'm pretty sure Peter

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Speaker 1: Gint even The Master Builder when I was a student

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Speaker 1: in London. Have I seen Head of Gabbler?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 3: Oh, so close, you are so close, so close?

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Speaker 1: Plus Christy starring Sydney Sweeney as boxer Christy Martin and

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Speaker 1: Peter Hujar's Day from director Iras Sachs, a two hander

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Speaker 1: with Ben Wishaw and Rebecca Hall. That'll be a one hander,

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Speaker 1: as I'm the only one who saw that film. A

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Speaker 1: quick reminder Film Spotting is now available as a video podcast.

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Speaker 1: If you're a Spotify listener, you can toggle between video

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Speaker 1: and audio. You can also watch the show on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: I believe, Josh, we are supposed to say like, share, subscribe,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that actually works or not, but

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Speaker 1: I said.

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Speaker 2: It, I mean we can, we can try it. I

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Speaker 2: don't know either or if it just annoys people and

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Speaker 2: away from doing that because they hear it so often.

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Speaker 2: Let's give it a try to see what happens. See

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Speaker 2: if we can get a few more likes in some comments.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go.

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Speaker 1: You can find the video episodes as well at film

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Speaker 1: spotting dot Net on the main page, or for past

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Speaker 1: episodes go to film spotting dot Net slash episodes.

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Speaker 2: But first, franken Stock.

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Speaker 1: In the spirit of Baron Victor Frankenstein confessing his twisted

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Speaker 1: tale to Captain Anderson. All profess that I struggled to

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Speaker 1: engineer an approach for this setup, something related to the

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Speaker 1: source material only one small issue. Inexplicably, I made it

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Speaker 1: through high school and college without an instructor ever assigning

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Speaker 1: Mary Shelley's eighteen eighteen Gothic novel Frankenstein or the modern Prometheus.

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Speaker 1: Nor did I ever assign it to myself. Okay, not

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Speaker 1: a big book guy. Apparently, maybe I could connect it

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Speaker 1: to some of the previous movie adaptations I thought, until

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Speaker 1: I visited the Frankenstein in popular culture and listen of

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Speaker 1: films featuring Frankenstein's monster pages on Wikipedia and several hours

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Speaker 1: of scrolling. Later decided I was way out of my depth.

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Speaker 1: My recollections of mel Brooks Young Frankenstein, the underwhelming Kenneth

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Speaker 1: Branna's Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, and Tim Burton's Frankenweeny probably weren't

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Speaker 1: going to cut it. Surely I could fall back on

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Speaker 1: the tried and true o tourist angle. After all, what

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Speaker 1: filmmaker has a more fervent relationship with monsters than Guillermo

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Speaker 1: Del Toro. Here again, I'm lacking some substance. Sure all

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Speaker 1: seven of his features released during the film spotting era,

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Speaker 1: from two thousand and six's Pans Labyrinth to his most

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Speaker 1: recent twenty twenty two's Pinocchio, were reviewed on the show,

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Speaker 1: and I was positive on all six that I considered.

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Speaker 1: But fantasy has never been my specialty, and four outstanding

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Speaker 1: Del Toro titles remain Cronos, Nmic Blade two and Crimson

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Speaker 1: Peak Before or I can call myself a completist. Even

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have to strain, though, to find the symmetry

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Speaker 1: between Pinocchio and Frankenstein, or more accurately Geppetto and doctor

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Speaker 1: Frankenstein and their respective creations. After the loss of his son,

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Speaker 1: aggrieving wood Carver fashions a new boy who comes to life.

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Speaker 1: I'm going back to Wikipedia here. Geppetto wakes up and

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Speaker 1: is frightened by Pinocchio. He becomes fed up with Pinocchio's

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Speaker 1: antics due to his newborn lack of self control. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, sound familiar, Josh. It wouldn't have challenged the

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Speaker 1: brilliant intellect of doctor Frankenstein, played with mono maniacal brio

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Speaker 1: by Oscar Isaac. But think of all the money Christoph

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Speaker 1: Waltz's Henrik Harlander, the arms merchant who backs Frankenstein's grand experiment,

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Speaker 1: could have saved had he simply gotten his hands on

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Speaker 1: a wood sprite to conjure Jacob Elordi's creature to life.

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Speaker 1: Then I realized you're the one who put Dizzyis Pinocchio

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Speaker 1: on your top ten Greatest Films of All Time list,

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Speaker 1: both the twenty twelve and twenty twenty two editions, which

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Speaker 1: led me to this lowercase e epiphany. Not only do

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Speaker 1: you love Pinocchio, it turns out that you've spent some

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Speaker 1: time considering del Toro's work and what his depiction of

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Speaker 1: monsters expresses about the human condition. And you've devoted even

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Speaker 1: more time to thinking about the creature and how he

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Speaker 1: functions as a monstrous mirror, reflecting an image of ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Quote doing not what we know we should do, but

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Speaker 1: what we know we should not end quote. Of course,

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Speaker 1: I'm quoting from your book where you were referring specifically

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Speaker 1: to James Wales's nineteen thirty one Frankenstein and other universal

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Speaker 1: horror films of the era. So, mister, fear not enlighten

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Speaker 1: me watching this Frankenstein? Did you learn anything new about

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Speaker 1: our capacity for sin? Or just bite what I understand

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Speaker 1: to be some fairly significant departures from both Wales's pre

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Speaker 1: code version and Shelley's text. Did del Toro's rendering offer

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Speaker 1: plenty of arresting visual flare but little revelation?

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Speaker 2: Well, I always love a book plug in a setup, atom,

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Speaker 2: So thank you first of all for that. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're quoting me, and I'm quoting the Apostle Paul and

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Speaker 2: Romans there. So I don't want to take too much

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Speaker 2: credit about we do what we wish we did not do.

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Speaker 2: I did have that in the back of my mind

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Speaker 2: surprisingly while I was watching Frankenstein and how it might

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Speaker 2: echo in this instance when it comes to the Shelley

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Speaker 2: novel and the movie versions, our capacity to play God. Right,

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Speaker 2: it's right there in her subtitle essentially, and traditionally. I

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Speaker 2: found Del Toro's version interesting on this front because it

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Speaker 2: does take to my mind a little bit of a

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Speaker 2: twist on this that I'm curious to get your opinion on. Traditionally,

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Speaker 2: it is that doctor Frankenstein has chosen to play God,

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Speaker 2: specifically by attempting to create life, right, So we're looking

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Speaker 2: at the very beginning Genesis here, trying to usurp that

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Speaker 2: power of actual life creation, and of course in every

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Speaker 2: version it goes disastrously wrong. Overall, I think this Frankenstein

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Speaker 2: del Toros Frankenstein on this front. It's not necessarily the

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Speaker 2: most interesting thing about the movie. I'll get to that later,

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Speaker 2: but on this front, I think this Frankenstein is less

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Speaker 2: about the creation of life that urge than it is

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Speaker 2: the prevention of death. And that's maybe a subtle nuance,

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Speaker 2: but I think a very compelling one for where we

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Speaker 2: are in this day and age. Think about the early

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Speaker 2: demonstration scene where Victor before his medical colleagues. At this point, right,

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Speaker 2: he hasn't really completely gone off the deep end, but

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Speaker 2: he's giving a demonstration to them trying to animate. This

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Speaker 2: is one of the best scenes in the movie. I

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Speaker 2: think these body parts, it's not even a full figure yet,

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Speaker 2: that he's kind of stitched together and animate that in

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Speaker 2: front of them. During this I think this is where

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Speaker 2: he says it. He boldly suggests that quote God is inept,

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Speaker 2: and the reasoning there is because he's allowed something like

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Speaker 2: death in his creation. So he sees that as a

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Speaker 2: flaw that he has the hubris to fix. We also

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Speaker 2: have a new figure compared to what we get in

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Speaker 2: the book. You mentioned him, Christoph Waltz as Harlan Durr.

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Speaker 2: This is the rich patron who is supporting Victor's experiments.

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Speaker 2: We learn he's doing this and I don't think this

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Speaker 2: counts as a real spoiler, but he's essentially doing this

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Speaker 2: because he's dying and he wants get out style Jordan

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Speaker 2: Peele's get out. He wants to have his intelligence placed

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Speaker 2: in the creature, the monster's bodies. So this was really

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Speaker 2: interesting to me. It was different from the book, again

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Speaker 2: but timely because think about all the discussion of things

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Speaker 2: like artificial intelligence and and the like. We're kind of

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Speaker 2: in this new era of transhumanism. We have these billionaires

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Speaker 2: who think that they can push science into eternity for

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Speaker 2: specifically themselves, not necessarily the rest of us, and so

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Speaker 2: we do. We're living with these modern day Harlander figures,

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Speaker 2: and so yeah, the capacity for us in here to

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Speaker 2: me is not trying to create life, trying to cheat

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Speaker 2: death rather than accept it as this condition for our

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Speaker 2: fallen humanity. I think Frankenstein del Toro's playing with that here,

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Speaker 2: which is, you know, for a property that's been made

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Speaker 2: countless times, to find even that little nuance to investigate

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Speaker 2: and include. I think it's to the movie's credit.

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Speaker 1: So you were a great co host there and film

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Speaker 1: critic in that you responded very thoroughly to my actual

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Speaker 1: setup question. But now I just really need to know

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Speaker 1: whether or not you like the movie, Josh, could you

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Speaker 1: do me that favorite?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Sorry, that is one of the many things I

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Speaker 2: liked about the movie, Beyond those things you hinted at,

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Speaker 2: the style, the production design, the filmmaking. Okay, we'll get

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Speaker 2: to that. And as I said, there's another thematic thing

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Speaker 2: that I found incredibly compelling, So yeah, thrown it back

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Speaker 2: to you. You know, what'd you make on this capacity

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Speaker 2: for sin question and the creation of life question? But overall,

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Speaker 2: I mean, here's the question, given your setup, did this

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Speaker 2: leap the fantasy hurdle for you? You know that you've kind

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Speaker 2: of said, is something like it? Maybe it takes something

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Speaker 2: a little extra for you to really embrace a movie

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Speaker 2: of this nature. Was Franksin able to do it?

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Speaker 1: I'm out of my depth again on the question I

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Speaker 1: posed to you, which is why I posed it to you.

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Speaker 1: I don't have a great answer on the capacity for

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Speaker 1: sin question, and I do think you covered it well.

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Speaker 1: You're right about the prevention of death element, and I

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Speaker 1: can't compare that really to other versions that I don't

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Speaker 1: remember very well or haven't seen, or the Shelley text.

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Speaker 3: Though I do feel like I remember feeling.

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Speaker 1: This as I watched it, and it has been now,

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Speaker 1: I think three weeks unfortunately, so I have my notes,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like the movie has started to dissipate

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Speaker 1: in my memory. I feel like the movie loses that

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Speaker 1: psychological bearing.

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Speaker 3: For the character.

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Speaker 1: And I think you could argue against what I just

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Speaker 1: said and say that that's part of the point is

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Speaker 1: that as that character loses his way a bit, we

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Speaker 1: lose that underpinning, which has to do with his mother

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Speaker 1: and how he really is pushed into this field and

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Speaker 1: wanting to play god because of not guilt, but really

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Speaker 1: because of a loss that he wants to never feel again.

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Speaker 1: I really do like what you said about Harland, or

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Speaker 1: real quick before I get into more detail, because there

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Speaker 1: was a little touch. I don't know if you caught

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Speaker 1: it or if I'm reading too much into it, but

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Speaker 1: he has an absolutely despicable father, and there is at

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Speaker 1: least one scene where del Toro seems to really dwell

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Speaker 1: on his father during one of their lessons, and I

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Speaker 1: think there's maybe even two instances of it, and his

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Speaker 1: father is handing him a glass of milk, and later

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Speaker 1: that's that's mirrored by Harlander in two scenes. And the

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Speaker 1: thing is Harlander at this point seems to be completely

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Speaker 1: on his side, a genuinely sympathetic benefactor. We don't know

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Speaker 1: what you said about him until until later in the film.

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Speaker 1: And while that's true, we also know that there has

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Speaker 1: to be a catch, and he alludes to that early

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Speaker 1: on when their deal is struck and the serving of

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Speaker 1: the Milk to me was a little bit of foreshadowing that,

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Speaker 1: like his father, this this relationship, this partnership, might be

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Speaker 1: part of his undoing at some point.

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Speaker 3: So I liked I like I like that touch.

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Speaker 1: In terms of the fantasy question, that ACTU is a

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Speaker 1: nice transition into what I wanted to say about the film.

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Speaker 1: I am not as high on it as you, though

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Speaker 1: I was very high on it at the beginning, and

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Speaker 1: as I've now said a few times, I had no

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Speaker 1: real bearing and I didn't know what to expect from

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the movie. I remembered so little of

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Speaker 1: the brand now that I was a little shocked to

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Speaker 1: read on Wikipedia some of the plot details and that

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Speaker 1: it apparently did have some of that North Pole Danish

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Speaker 1: expedition in it and Frankenstein, doctor Frankenstein narrating his wild

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Speaker 1: tale to Captain and Anderson. It had some of that conceit,

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Speaker 1: though not to the extent that this movie does. And

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Speaker 1: watching it, I thought either del Toro made that up

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Speaker 1: or he was being more faithful to the text than

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Speaker 1: most adaptations have been, And it turns out the latter

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Speaker 1: is mostly true, at least when it comes to that

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Speaker 1: framing device and I can say that because I took

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Speaker 1: nine of my film criticism students to see this movie

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Speaker 1: at the Chicago Film Festival at the Music Box, and

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Speaker 1: the student who apparently drew the short straw and had

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Speaker 1: to ride home in my vehicle sitting in the passenger seat,

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Speaker 1: had read the book very recently, so had a lot

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Speaker 1: of thoughts on the movie and had a lot of

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Speaker 1: thoughts in relation to the book, and so was sharing

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Speaker 1: those thoughts. But I also got to bounce a few

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Speaker 1: questions off them, so I got I got a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a taste of that. But Josh, at the

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Speaker 1: very beginning I was I was hooked in part again

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Speaker 1: because of the unexpected for me expanse of the story

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Speaker 1: and the expanse I think this is two shows in

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Speaker 1: a row. Now we've used the phrase mees on sen.

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Speaker 1: I think we've upped our cinophile quotient tier our pretentious quotient.

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Speaker 1: But that giant ship trapped in the ice del Toro,

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Speaker 1: clearly establishing Captain Anderson's hubris that foreshadows Frankenstein's pushing his

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Speaker 1: men past their breaking points labor to release the ship

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Speaker 1: in service of his vision, his mission. The imagery of

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Speaker 1: the creature in the distance on the horizon. There's a

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Speaker 1: shot that is at dusk where you get the blue, yellow, orange,

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Speaker 1: black hues and just this tiny figure of the creature

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Speaker 1: on that horizon, and then that shot of the creature.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking of the shot when it's just covered in

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Speaker 1: ice and the ship is now in the distance and

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Speaker 1: the creatures in the foreground and there's just enough of

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Speaker 1: an angle. I think about the great advice that David

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Speaker 1: Lynch's John Ford gives the young Spielberg in the fable

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Speaker 1: mids about how you have to have the horizon somewhere

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Speaker 1: other than in the middle right, and it's just enough

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Speaker 1: of an angle that it gives that frame a real

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Speaker 1: dynamism and the color. In the week since I screened

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Speaker 1: this at the Chicago Film Festival, I did see a

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Speaker 1: social media video where del Toro goes into detail on

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Speaker 1: how he color coded. As you would expect, he color

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Speaker 1: coded all the sections of the film and all the

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Speaker 1: characters of the film. Of course, that provided depth that

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Speaker 1: I didn't catch on the first viewing, but the broad

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Speaker 1: strokes of those color choices were clear and so striking

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Speaker 1: on that first viewing. From how green is used and

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Speaker 1: matched to Frankenstein at certain points in places read to

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Speaker 1: me a Goths character as the mother and blue to

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Speaker 1: her Elizabeth, and in the Arctic those icy white blue

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Speaker 1: and gold hues. I found it so enveloping and immersive.

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Speaker 1: And I'll go to the red just for a second. Josh,

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Speaker 1: there's another shot that is stuck with me so clearly

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Speaker 1: from the film, when his mother dies, and even just

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Speaker 1: the production design of the casket, the way the white

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Speaker 1: almost ivory looking. It looks like a robe folded in

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Speaker 1: on her and you only see the outline almost of

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Speaker 1: her face and the red around her, almost like it's

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Speaker 1: a frozen pool of blood. And there are men standing

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Speaker 1: around her, four of them, and with their feet and

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Speaker 1: the black robes. It it is almost as if it

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Speaker 1: from a composition standpoint, it makes it looks like a swirl.

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Speaker 1: It looks kaleidoscopic, and it also draws your eyes downward

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Speaker 1: in the frame. It's an overhead shot. But it also

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Speaker 1: almost like the Kubrick technique that I'm forgetting the name of,

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Speaker 1: when it when it draws your your eye, you know,

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Speaker 1: to the end of the frame, except it's doing it

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Speaker 1: in a vertical way instead of instead of in a

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Speaker 1: in a in a in a way across the the shot.

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Speaker 1: It's filled with with frames like that, and exactly like

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Speaker 1: the captain before Frankenstein, I sat there before the screen,

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Speaker 1: just waiting to receive del Toro's story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the gorgeousness on display here is ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: And what I think about in terms of that coffin

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Speaker 2: is what you describe, but also the fact that it's

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Speaker 2: there of like this this stone essentially, and there's an

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Speaker 2: opening for her face laying in there, the corpse's face

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Speaker 2: that is then covered by a stone mask, which I

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Speaker 2: don't know if that's you know, drawing on a tradition

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Speaker 2: that exists, or if it's an invention of the production

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Speaker 2: designers and prop designers here, but it's one of the

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Speaker 2: things I'll remember most about this Frankenstein. And yeah, we

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Speaker 2: could probably go on and on about the costuming and

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Speaker 2: the production design, and especially Mia Goth's character being you know,

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Speaker 2: interested in insects, particularly butterflies, and every dress she wears

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Speaker 2: mimics the unfurling of a butterfly's wings in some way,

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Speaker 2: or even a little head piece she has that curves

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Speaker 2: around her face. It's just incredible on that artistic esthetic level.

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Speaker 2: Now I'm sensing that you're saying all that but to

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Speaker 2: set up an enormous butt and maybe maybe we'll just

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Speaker 2: go there and rather than me jump in with something

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Speaker 2: different that that I really liked about the movie.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, one point perspective, by the way, is the

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Speaker 1: Kubrick shot that I was I was thinking of, and

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Speaker 1: this mimics that, but but in a way that's a

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Speaker 1: high angle shot. In the back of my mind at

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Speaker 1: this point, there was this little asterisk and I and

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Speaker 1: I tucked it away, hoping it wouldn't be a concern,

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Speaker 1: but I couldn't completely overlook it. And the question was,

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Speaker 1: and again, not being familiar with the source material, how

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Speaker 1: are we going to get to the Arctic? What series

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Speaker 1: of circumstances will justify this journey emotionally, psychologically but also

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Speaker 1: physically maneuvering these characters from from Europe to the edge

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Speaker 1: of the world in the midi eighteen hundreds. I was

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Speaker 1: in and I stayed in for a good portion of

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Speaker 1: the movie. But I think I can pinpoint the exact

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Speaker 1: moment where del Toro lost me, and I mean the

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Speaker 1: narrative lost me. But I do think we may need

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Speaker 1: to get into spoilers to really to really make my point,

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Speaker 1: so I don't necessarily want to go there yet, but

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Speaker 1: there there was suffice it to say there was a

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Speaker 1: point where del Toro's narrative lost me, and it felt like,

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Speaker 1: I guess the way I could sum it up, Josh

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Speaker 1: is it. It felt like even though, of course the

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Speaker 1: movie is not made or I doubt the movie was

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Speaker 1: made in it was not shot in the order in

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Speaker 1: which the narrative unfolds, so it's not as if they

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Speaker 1: put all their effort into the beginning of the film,

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Speaker 1: though of course it was put together. However it was

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Speaker 1: put together even that was probably not put together in

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Speaker 1: the order in which the narrative unfolds. It was probably

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Speaker 1: put together in pieces. It felt to me like so

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Speaker 1: much care and effort and time was devoted to that

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Speaker 1: opening sequence which I loved, to the flashback to the

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Speaker 1: past which I loved, the one we're referring to with

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Speaker 1: mi A Goth as the mother, the backstory of that character,

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Speaker 1: to those scenes with Oscar Isaac as the younger doctor

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Speaker 1: with all of his brashness and he's trying to upend

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Speaker 1: the scientific community, and and even the part where he is.

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Speaker 1: He's really trying to create this creature, and the back

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Speaker 1: end felt so rushed to me that it undid a

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Speaker 1: lot of what I thought the front end was setting up.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's return to that when you can talk about

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Speaker 2: it a little more in detail. And yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: I know where you're going, and I think I might

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Speaker 2: partially agree, and maybe we if her on, you know,

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Speaker 2: the fatality of that, maybe instance of disappointment in terms

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Speaker 2: of the narrative. Here's the thing that I love most

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Speaker 2: about this movie, and it's actually connected, even though I

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Speaker 2: saw it about a week and a half ago now

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Speaker 2: and have had time to write a rough draft review

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Speaker 2: and so forth. But I love that producer Sam's newsletter,

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Speaker 2: which is out by now to Film Spotting family members

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Speaker 2: I just saw today myself, is touching on this idea

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Speaker 2: of the gothic and gothic films connected to Gothic literature.

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Speaker 2: He's talking about this in the newsletter in terms of

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Speaker 2: Del Toro's output and actually Tim Burton's output, and asking

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Speaker 2: you know, readers to choose between the two. If you're

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Speaker 2: not a Film Spotting Family member, by the way, you're

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Speaker 2: missing out on these newsletters. So you should really join

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Speaker 2: Filmspottingfamily dot com. That's how you can get this from

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Speaker 2: Sam every week. So I loved that he took this

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Speaker 2: tack because here's what I appreciated about Del Toro's Frankenstein, Adam,

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Speaker 2: And we're going to go into a little bit of

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Speaker 2: literature here, in literary history. But you are a book guy,

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Speaker 2: so I think you'll enjoy this, and I think you'll

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Speaker 2: have you'll have some thoughts on it. What the movie

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Speaker 2: clarified for me in terms of del Toro, who is

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Speaker 2: often and rightly thought of as a Gothic filmmaker, is

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Speaker 2: this is the instance where something else, another impulse in

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Speaker 2: his filmography, was allowed to flower into full bloom. And

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Speaker 2: that is Romanticism, the literary attrition tradition of Romanticism, which is,

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Speaker 2: you know, somewhat parallel to the Gothic tradition. And of

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Speaker 2: course that makes sense it would happen here because when

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Speaker 2: you look at how Shelley's novel was born, it was

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Speaker 2: born partly out of her time with two Romantic poets,

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Speaker 2: Percy Shelley and Lord Byron. And so this is a

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Speaker 2: novel that is absolutely Gothic, but swimming in those waters

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Speaker 2: and Del Toro is a filmmaker who's absolutely gothic but

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Speaker 2: has been swimming in romantic waters, I think probably throughout

431
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: his career. But the first instance I can think of

432
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 2: we really saw this was the Shape of Water, where

433
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 2: you have something that is gothic and look but reaching

434
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: for something more sublime, for something more transcendent, which is

435
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: what would be more ascribed to the Romantics. Right. And

436
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: here I'm watching Frankenstein and realizing I should have realized

437
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 2: this the instance it was announced that he was doing Frankenstein.

438
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 2: He has pushed Shelley's novel, to my mind, even further

439
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 2: into the romantic because he's the one you pointed this

440
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: out in your setup. He's the one who looks at

441
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 2: monsters as lovely creatures. Right. So this has gloomy settings,

442
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 2: it has macab dismemberments, it has this gothic stuff, but

443
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 2: it has in its creature, it has a heart that

444
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 2: yearns for an ecstatic life. And he ends this film

445
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 2: with a quote from Byron about a broken heart that

446
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 2: will quote brokenly live on. And so watching this movie

447
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 2: really actually thinking about it more afterwards, because it's such

448
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 2: a sumptuous aesthetic movie. I didn't have a lot of

449
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 2: these thematic considerations while I was experiencing it, but it

450
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 2: was more thinking about it afterwards that it is this

451
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 2: flowering of the romantic in his work, and the here's

452
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: maybe where we can move towards performances a little bit more,

453
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 2: because I think it's all rooted in Jacob Elordi's performance

454
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: as the Creature, which is this romantic expression of this figure.

455
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 2: I thought he was incredible in what is maybe one

456
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: of cinema's hardest roles to pull off, just because it's

457
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 2: so unbelievable, it can so easily be silly. There's a

458
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 2: reason we have spoofs of it. And man, I was

459
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: just kind of enraptured with what a LORDI did with this.

460
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 2: Following del Torell's lead, I think towards that romantic direction.

461
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: I agreed completely on both counts, and this will allow

462
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 1: me to transition into praising the film, but it will

463
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: also lead to another frustration. I was skeptical about pretty

464
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: boy Jacob Elordi playing the Creature?

465
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 3: Was that fair? No?

466
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: Not, I've seen him in exactly two things, Josh Priscilla

467
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: and Paul Schrader's Oh Canada. No, not even saltburn I

468
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: haven't seen it three things if you count his stint

469
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: hosting SNL, and I feel the same mixed to negative

470
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: way about all three of those things I've just mentioned.

471
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: I'll never be skeptical about Oscar Isaac in any role,

472
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: because I think he's one of our great screen actors.

473
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: Yet here I was walking out of the theater, and

474
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: here I am now proclaiming that the best performance in

475
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: this film by far as a Lordi's as the creature.

476
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: He he has his own active creation, he has to

477
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: create most just through movement, this being that is both

478
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: recognizably human and unlike any human we've ever seen. I

479
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: hate to evaluate acting so crudely, but it's so easy.

480
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: I think this is what you're getting at too. It's

481
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: so easy to imagine a performer trying to play the

482
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: creature just like a very overgrown child or Bambi on ice,

483
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: those long, thin legs barely wobbling along. And a Lord

484
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: he conveys all the necessary physical immaturity, but also carries

485
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: such a spiritual weight on those spinley legs. I was

486
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: surprised by the relative fluidity of his movement, whereas it

487
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: would have been more obvious to play it totally jagged

488
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: and choppy. Yeah, that element is still there, but the

489
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: performance isn't overwhelmed by it. And of course the longing

490
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: behind his eyes, his gentleness, You absolutely understand why Elizabeth

491
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: would be drawn to him, separating out any kind of

492
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: romantic attacher. You understand why she is drawn to him.

493
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: But also when he needs to let loose as the

494
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: monster a lord, he also summons the rage very effectively

495
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: as well. And so this praise for a LORDI I agree.

496
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: I think it's the strength of the film, along with

497
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: a lot of what del Toro is doing visually. And

498
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: this disappointment with Isaac, or disappointment with how Isaac is

499
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: directed maybe or conceived with just a bit too much

500
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: Gusto gets it another aspect of what frustrated me. And

501
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: you've said it, but I'm gonna I'm gonna quote you again.

502
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: In your book you said, if anything about the thirty

503
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: one version, you said, if anything, my sympathies lie with

504
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: the poor creature. Given the legendary Boris Karloff's dignified performance,

505
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: all sad eyes and limp limbs, I'm never really afraid

506
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: of Karloff's lost, lurching orphan. Rather it's doctor Frankenstein himself,

507
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: who survives the film, who serves as a haunting reminder

508
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: of my own tendency to think that I can do

509
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: God one better. Del Toro clearly reads the Frankenstein story

510
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: the same way you read that, which isn't surprising. His

511
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: work has always revealed that humans are the real monsters,

512
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: but his affection for this monster is so overwhelming that

513
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: it softens the edges of his vision, simplifying the complex,

514
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: volatile dynamic between creator and creation that should drive the

515
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: film's emotional and dramatic core. I think that's where it's

516
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: undone a little bit. Not only am I not sure

517
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: we need a Frankenstein, A movie Frankenstein where the creature

518
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: actually verbalizes to us, verbalizes to Frankenstein, and by extension us,

519
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: you're the monster. If and when he does say it,

520
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: and he does here, that needs to hit us as

521
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: viewers as as hard as it hits or should hit Frankenstein,

522
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: or at minimum, it has to intensify some existing strong tension.

523
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: And here Frankenstein, by this point, certainly, but even before,

524
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: is so obviously the monster whose moral compromises have ceased

525
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: being compromises that we as audience members, or speaking for

526
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: myself anyway, as an audience member, has been conflicted about

527
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: the creature is just a little bit too angelic, Frankenstein

528
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: is too demonic. There's not enough blurring of those extremes

529
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: to make it as compelling as I think it needs

530
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: to be. Definitely not enough, and this helps get it

531
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: my first point. Definitely not enough to launch the final

532
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: act and the emotional resolution between the two that del

533
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: Toro tries to offer us.

534
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 2: Okay, so a lot going on there. One thing that's

535
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: supports your point of view is and maybe this came

536
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 2: up with your student on the car ride back about

537
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 2: the book, but the creature slash monster in the book

538
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: is more monstrous, takes murderous acts that are far more

539
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 2: appalling than anything we see here. That supports your point.

540
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: It muddles things a little bit right in our relation

541
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: to him. So I can see that now that would

542
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: not have worked with what I think del Toro is

543
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 2: doing here in terms of moving this towards the romantic necessarily,

544
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 2: So personally it doesn't bother me. The Oscar Isaac performance

545
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 2: is a curiosity. It's entertaining. He's I don't understand the choice, though,

546
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 2: of making him this cocky heart throb. I mean half

547
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: of his experiments are done shirtless, which you know, fine,

548
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: no complaints there, But in terms of the envisioning of

549
00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 2: this character, I'm trying to understand what they are going for.

550
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: I found the relation to be a little more fruitful

551
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 2: the relationship between Creature and Frankenstein, however, because there is

552
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: a tenderness that is there from the very beginning, and

553
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 2: the push and pull for me is watching Victor Frankenstein

554
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 2: follow that instinct and then follow his instinct to move

555
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 2: away from the Creature and care for him in any way.

556
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,959
Speaker 2: There's a line in this where I believe he says

557
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: something like I never thought about what would happen after creation.

558
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: And maybe that's the key to this vision of Frankenstein,

559
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: because that is why he is the playboy. The playboy

560
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 2: doesn't think about being the dad. He just thinks about,

561
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 2: you know, what it takes to become a dad that act.

562
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 2: And similarly, this Victor franken Stein is only thinking about

563
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: the consummation the experiment and not necessarily having to wake

564
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: up with an infant in the middle of the night.

565
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: So I think there's some of that that's going on

566
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,479
Speaker 2: I will defend though the third act, and again, maybe

567
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 2: this will move us into spoilers, because there are some

568
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: exchanges there between Victor and the creature that I found

569
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 2: quite moving. But I agree with you they're not necessarily

570
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 2: entirely set up by what we've gotten before in a

571
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: previous section.

572
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 3: Well before we get to that.

573
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: It's amazing how I suppose after doing the show, as

574
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: long as we have together, we do not discuss any

575
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: of this ahead of time, and yet we seem to

576
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: set up each other with the points we want to make.

577
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: I wanted to say, Josh that where I certainly had

578
00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: sympathy for Victor, and where I also was really provoked

579
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: by the film in a way I didn't expect to be,

580
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: is in those first moments after this creation comes to

581
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 1: life that line that you said, but even without the

582
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: line Frankenstein appearing at the foot of his bed and

583
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: him having to process that range of emotions from fear

584
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: to elation slash pride to them Now what now, Tom

585
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: walking him downstairs, chaining him up? All that work. Think

586
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: about all that work, the emotional, intellectual, financial, the investment,

587
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,280
Speaker 1: your life's work, essentially, and really you can think about

588
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: it as your life's work from the moment you've been born,

589
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: all the training, your mother's passing, right, all of it's

590
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: led to this. All of it's led to you creating

591
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 1: this and you do it?

592
00:36:58,120 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 3: Now what?

593
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: And the thing is it mirrors on a on a

594
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: much grander level, but on that that expansive scale, it

595
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: mirrors what having a baby is like for parents, what

596
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: it is like for parents to have babies, and some

597
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: have a much more difficult time of it than others,

598
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: with a lot more financial investment, right, and and have

599
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: to go through a lot more of a struggle no

600
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: matter how equipped you are. And I've always been grateful

601
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: or felt felt fortunate that I had a wife who

602
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: was an ob nurse. I I couldn't. I couldn't have

603
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 1: felt more comfortable because I couldn't have had a wife

604
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: who was more comfortable and prepared to take care of

605
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: a baby.

606
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 3: Sure, so I had.

607
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: I had four younger sisters, so I grew up having

608
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: having babies around me and felt pretty comfortable already in

609
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: that way. But with all of that said, there's still

610
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: a moment where you get discharged the first time and

611
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 1: go wait now what, oh?

612
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 3: Now what do I do?

613
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 2: Oh?

614
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm responsible for this, this thing forever, and I

615
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: hadn't thought of it, as I said, going into the movie,

616
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: but sure enough, this is something the student told me

617
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,439
Speaker 1: when I brought this up on the way home. There

618
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: has been a lot of reading of Frankenstein as a

619
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: postpartum novels, as you would imagine, and Shelley apparently lost

620
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: an infant after childbirth and had multiple difficult pregnancies, So

621
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: that's an element that is there. It's certainly there for

622
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: the interpretation, and it was something that the movie made

623
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 1: me think about.

624
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's kind of a fascinating twist

625
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 2: on envisioning this Victor Frankenstein as as the parent, the

626
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 2: parent figure. I think this is part of the emotionality

627
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 2: that del Toro is bringing to an unexpected place, you know,

628
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: to a monster movie, which he's done many times before.

629
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: Do you have anything else you want to say or

630
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,399
Speaker 1: do you want to get into spoilers.

631
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 2: The other interesting thing maybe before we get into spoilers,

632
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 2: is Mi a Goth. As you mentioned how it wasn't

633
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 2: a romantic relationship right between her and the creature, and

634
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: I think that's important because me a Goth's Elizabeth in

635
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 2: some ways the text. Yeah, but it could be, it

636
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 2: could be the point of the relationship, and I don't

637
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: think it is here. I think she's more importantly a

638
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 2: foil to Victor, because you know he is. I talked

639
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: about him talking about God being inept, and how does

640
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: Elizabeth describe things? You know, she talks about God's design

641
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 2: when she starts to see some of Victor's early experiments,

642
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 2: or when she's talking about insects, right, And I think

643
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 2: what she shares with the creature is a capacity for wonder.

644
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 2: And this is what Victor doesn't have, because it's partly

645
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: why he lets go of the rope once the creature

646
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 2: is is born, is that's the moment for wonder to

647
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: look and stand in awe at this bean. But he's

648
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 2: just more invested in creating it, right, whereas Elizabeth shares

649
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 2: the sensibility of well, the sensibility of We see the

650
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: creature in that wonderfully designed basement. I guess it's a morgue,

651
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 2: but it's also like a butcher shop essentially, where he's chained,

652
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 2: and it has this gutter running down the middle of

653
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 2: the floor, mostly for blood, the blood to run out

654
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: of the castle, but occasionally water will stream through it,

655
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: and the creature has this instinct to drop a leaf

656
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: into the flow of water and be delighted by its path.

657
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 2: That's what he shares with Elizabeth, the fact that they

658
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 2: take joy and delight in such moments. These are romantic moments.

659
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: So I think her character, who is you know not

660
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 2: in the novel kind of a variation of a very

661
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 2: minor figure in the novel. I think her character is

662
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 2: is key as both the foil to Victor and the

663
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: partner in that way to the creature. So yeah, I

664
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 2: think I think Goth is instrumental and very.

665
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 3: Good in this The Great Victor Frankenstein and you made

666
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 3: a mistake.

667
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 2: I created something truly horrible, not something.

668
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 3: Someone with that. Let's get into some spoiler territory.

669
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: I feel like I need to do it anyway to

670
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: explain what ultimately held me back with this film, and

671
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: maybe that's the only reason why we need to get

672
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: into it. I don't know if there's things you feel

673
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: like you need to get off your chest, Josh, I

674
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: feel a little bit like I fear anyway that maybe

675
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 1: I've now set it up too much and I don't

676
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: know if I can deliver because you're you're expecting me

677
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: to make a case for why this film ultimately doesn't work.

678
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: And it's not like you're gonna agree with me anyway

679
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 1: on this point, because it sounds like you're all in

680
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: on this movie as a winner for you.

681
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 2: Are you negative? Are you? Are you going negative on this?

682
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: This is a movie, Josh, where based on the beginning

683
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: of the film and maybe even the first half, I was,

684
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: I was this is this is a movie.

685
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 3: I know.

686
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: I'm giving a very positive letterboxed rating too, and as

687
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: we sit at this moment, I am a two and

688
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: a half star rating.

689
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 2: All Right, I'm gonna get that. I'm gonna get that

690
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: half star from you, though though actually I'm probably not

691
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 2: because arguing with you is not the way to get

692
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,919
Speaker 2: the half star. It's if my cap up to this point,

693
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 2: you didn't make it, it's hopeless.

694
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 3: Sure, well here here it is.

695
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: And this is the thing about the movie going experience

696
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: is that we can even agree on things intellectually, but

697
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: if we saw the same movie and by the end

698
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: of it we didn't have the same emotional experience, if

699
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: narratively didn't deliver, That's what I'm left with, and that's

700
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 1: what I'm thinking about ultimately when I'm doing the superficial

701
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: work of giving it that star rating. And so my

702
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: big issue or the biggest thing holding me back, I said,

703
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,439
Speaker 1: I had that little astiss where I'm thinking and sure, maybe.

704
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 3: This is just me.

705
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,959
Speaker 1: Maybe I get too caught up a little bit on logistics,

706
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: where I'm I'm thinking early on, wait a second, how

707
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: does this Frankenstein story get all the way to the Arctic?

708
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: How are we even here? Okay, that's in the back

709
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: of my mind. And then as it's going along, I'm

710
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: thinking that it's simplifying this Frankenstein. I don't know at

711
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: this point about any of this stuff that's in the book,

712
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: and that it's way more complicated, and that Frankenstein is,

713
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 1: you know, murdering people left and right in the text.

714
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: I just know that on screen I felt like it

715
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: was it was too simple, and there wasn't enough of

716
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: that push pull for me to really feel like it

717
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: it delivered in a in a complicated way. Well, those

718
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: two things collide at the exact moment where the creature

719
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: tells Frankenstein, you're the monster, which follows This is a

720
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: point of departure I understand from the book where it's

721
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: doctor Frankenstein who kills Elizabeth and blames the monster. But

722
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 1: in the in the book, isn't it the creature who

723
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: actually does kill her out of an act of vengeance

724
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: because he's mad.

725
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 2: He's mad at doctor the figure that she's kind of Yeah,

726
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 2: the corollary for yeah.

727
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 1: So this, this in the movie initiates Frankenstein's chase of

728
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: the monster all the way to the Arctic. And even

729
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 1: if you can get past the suspension of disbelief stuff,

730
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: stop yourself from asking too many but wait, how questions

731
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: which may or may not include how the genius doctor

732
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:04,879
Speaker 1: frank Stein somehow hasn't fully processed that the creature can't die,

733
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: not from any gunshots anyway, Yet he keeps buying bullets

734
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: and guns and trying to shoot him. Even if you

735
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: can get past that. I only feel this goes back

736
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: to my point. I only feel complete allegiance to the creature,

737
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 1: and I have no investment in what's driving Frankenstein's pursuit,

738
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: and just purely from a narrative standpoint, my lack of

739
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: investment and those creeping, that creeping suspension of disbelief, those

740
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: issues they stem from how briskly the movie needs to

741
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: get us to the Arctic. And what I felt, Josh,

742
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: I felt like it was rushing to that resolution after

743
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: all that time. I know, I said this, but after

744
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: all that time, that great time has spent the patience

745
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: setting up the story within a story, framing all the

746
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: Danish men, the creature kills, all the time we spend

747
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: back in the past young Victor with his mother and

748
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: the trannical father.

749
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: All the world.

750
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: Building parts and the character building parts that I enjoyed

751
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: so much of the run time is spent there. And

752
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: then the conclusion.

753
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:04,959
Speaker 3: To put it.

754
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 1: In in Seinfeld terms, I think del toro YadA YadA

755
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: is the ending. I felt like a YadA YadA is

756
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 1: the ending. Finally we get these two stories, these two narratives,

757
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 1: the two perspectives colliding, and that moment on the deathbed

758
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: should be powerful. It should be it should be powerful,

759
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: and I didn't feel it. And I didn't feel it

760
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: for all these reasons I mentioned that just were we're

761
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: taking my investment in the story out of me. It

762
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: sucked all the narrative energy from me. The more the

763
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: film went on, I didn't buy any of the chase.

764
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: I didn't buy any of the chase or how it

765
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: tried to solve it in the end.

766
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm not going to be able to retroactively

767
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: insert that emotional investment in the finale for you. To

768
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 2: your point, I'll say something heretical too, is I think

769
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 2: Shelley's novel Is Not is not as expertly constructed in

770
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 2: this way as maybe the reputation has. It's It's a

771
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 2: difficult novel in terms of the change of perspectives, the

772
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 2: level of letters you're you're subsumed in. You know, it's

773
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 2: the moral question at its heart and the fantastic vision

774
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 2: at its heart that I think that has held it up,

775
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 2: held up its reputation, and rightly so. I think it's

776
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 2: brilliant for those things. But in terms of the plotting

777
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: you're talking about and the narrative makes it one of

778
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: the most difficult properties to adapt. And I don't know

779
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 2: if that's why it's continually adapted someone's waiting to crack it,

780
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 2: or if it's because my instinct is it's more that

781
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 2: vision is so alluring, right, the ideas she had, the

782
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 2: way she described it, the passion which with which she

783
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 2: gave the voices to her characters, all of that is

784
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 2: to the novel's credit, but in terms of this structure

785
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 2: and the narrative it has, it has always held me

786
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 2: up when I revisit the novel and given me pause.

787
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 2: So I don't think you're entirely wrong to react to

788
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 2: the film adaptation in this way, but I did have

789
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 2: a different experience with that emotional investment, And for me,

790
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 2: I did not mind so much that I wasn't as

791
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 2: invested in Victor Frankenstein, because this movie had gotten me

792
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 2: so invested in the creature, and so the question for

793
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 2: me was less about Frankenstein's end and how the creature

794
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 2: was going to respond to this life that had been

795
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 2: given to him, what he was, the choices he was

796
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 2: going to make, And in that sense, I found the

797
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 2: ending quite powerful. And there is a sense we're doing

798
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 2: spoilers here. The line for me was not so much

799
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 2: that you or the monster, but again, a different choice

800
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 2: del Toro makes Victor I forgive you. I mean, this

801
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:18,240
Speaker 2: is something that's bringing us in a totally new direction,

802
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 2: as is the choice for the creature to not leave

803
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 2: the scene as he does in the book and set

804
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 2: himself on fire. If my memory or at least say

805
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 2: he's going to do that, I think about My memory

806
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 2: is a little fuzzy on that, but we essentially are

807
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: to understand that, you know, he is no more at

808
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 2: the end here, what does he do? He pushes the

809
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 2: boat out of the ice, saves the remaining men's lives,

810
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 2: and the last thing he does, Adham, is a romantic gesture.

811
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 2: He looks up to the warmth of the sun. And

812
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 2: I guess that is where I found my emotion was

813
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 2: in that exce experience, that choice of the creature, that

814
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,760
Speaker 2: romantic expression. It's not a defense of how they handle

815
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 2: Victor Frankenstein necessarily. I can still see why that might

816
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 2: have left you wanting. But where I was and where

817
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:19,439
Speaker 2: my my own heart lay with this creature's experience, it was, Yeah,

818
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 2: it was pretty enrapturing, actually, yeah.

819
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: And I do love those final moments. I love the

820
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: touch of freeing the ship. I love that that final

821
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: glance and the warmth of the sun. Those really are nice. Obviously,

822
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: I still think the movie thinks it's very important that

823
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: that father and son have that moment together and that

824
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 1: moment of forgiveness, and the fact that it didn't it

825
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: didn't deliver because there wasn't enough of a complexity to

826
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 1: their relationship. Yeah, I it it left me wanting, but

827
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 1: I'm glad. I'm glad that it paid off for you.

828
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 2: Josh.

829
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: We agree certainly on a Lordie performance in this film,

830
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 1: and he will be in the running for me as

831
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: well when we talk about the best performances of the year.

832
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,919
Speaker 1: Frankenstein is currently out in limited release and available exclusively

833
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: on Netflix. If you've seen it and agree or disagree

834
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 1: with our takes, you can email us feedback at film

835
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: spotting dot net. We may share some of that feedback

836
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:20,240
Speaker 1: on a future show.

837
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 4: This episode is brought to you by Peloton break through

838
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Speaker 4: at one Peloton dot com.

845
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Speaker 2: Adam I mentioned the film Spotting Family and our discussion there.

846
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 2: How do you feel about thanking of film Spotting family

847
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 2: member here for a moment? Should we do that?

848
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: I love it especially when it's international. Those are always fun.

849
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is great to say. And this is not

850
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,240
Speaker 2: only a Film Spotting Family member, but Clara del Olmo

851
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 2: from Madrid, Spain is a Family Plus member, so that

852
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: highest tier you can join as part of the Film

853
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 2: Spotting Family. If you're on Letterboxed as Clara is, you

854
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 2: can find her at CLZ SPN. Now, we always have

855
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 2: a questionnaire that new members can fill out if they choose,

856
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 2: and Clara did that, so we're going to share a

857
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 2: little bit of that here. She wrote in saying I

858
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 2: needed something to keep me going through the endless treadmill

859
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 2: slogs at the gym, so I went on a quest

860
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 2: to find the Ultimate film podcast. After a deep dive online,

861
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 2: your show kept popping up like some kind of podcast,

862
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,839
Speaker 2: Holy Grail, figured why not give it a shot. Turns

863
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 2: out that was probably one of the best decisions I

864
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 2: made in a while. I've been hooked since episode six

865
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: eighty one Lord of the Rings fifteenth Anniversary slash Top

866
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 2: five Lord of the Ring scenes the real kicker finding

867
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 2: out Adam hadn't seen the last two movies. I mean,

868
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 2: what I had to see, what it was like to

869
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 2: experience the epicness of LOTR through the fresh eyes of

870
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 2: someone seeing them for the first time.

871
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 3: Spoiler.

872
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 2: It was hilarious and warm at the same time. I

873
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,839
Speaker 2: was laughing for a minute one and just knew I'd

874
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 2: found my perfect podcast match.

875
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 1: Now Clara just missed something here. She missed an opportunity

876
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: because she talked about finding some kind of podcast Holy

877
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: Grail that then talks about the Lord of the Rings.

878
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,479
Speaker 1: She could have gone with some kind of Sauron thing

879
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: the Ring that met Josh instead of the true yeah,

880
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: I like this.

881
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 2: People on their Lord of the Rings references that now

882
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 2: that you're a yeah.

883
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 1: Maybe my fantasy bona fides right, I've heard them exactly clearly.

884
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 1: Clearly Clara has empathy for me, or maybe it's just

885
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 1: sympathy for me, because when we asked a favorite review

886
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,479
Speaker 1: or segment, she says, I loved the eight twenty four

887
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:00,800
Speaker 1: draft so much as I felt the pain from Adam

888
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 1: when mean old Josh, those are her words. I see it.

889
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: I see it there, Old Josh took Ladybird. Since then

890
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: I was very into the draft structure.

891
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you might have been doing a little editorializing there

892
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 2: in Clarence Embellis, but you know what. This does remind

893
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 2: me that we just did another draft for our film,

894
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 2: spotting family bonus episode our Cruise. We did draft and yeah,

895
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 2: family members might have that in their feet already. I

896
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 2: think they did think I did you dirty? And I

897
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 2: did you dirty in that one too, didn't.

898
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: I yeah, I don't want to spoil it, but there

899
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: was a Tom Cruise pick that I thought I would

900
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: get in round four or five, and you did some

901
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: homework apparently, and you I mean, I'm glad you love

902
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: this movie now as much as I do. I did

903
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: not think you'd take it. It turns out, though, that

904
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: Zach in Chicago you could call him mean old Zach

905
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:57,320
Speaker 1: because he took gosh two of your choices that you wanted.

906
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 2: He was ridiculous. I think we're in process of maybe

907
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,720
Speaker 2: banning him from the family, right. Isn't he maybe considering

908
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 2: kicking him for his behavior?

909
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: Rescind Yeah, if he wasn't such a nice guy, we

910
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: should definitely do that, you know. And is his money's green,

911
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: so we will We'll still take it. But that was

912
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: that was fun. Zach in Chicago was a fantastic family

913
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: member to have that Tom Cruise draft with it was

914
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 1: the three of us, plus Sam van Halgrend. I think

915
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,919
Speaker 1: Sam is the one who is currently winning the poll

916
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,879
Speaker 1: because family members get to choose who won the draft. Josh,

917
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: do you have any idea who's in dead last in

918
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: that draft?

919
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 2: I wait a minute, Sam is winning the pole.

920
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: Sam's winning the poll. Yes, Sam is.

921
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 2: My memory was he torpedoed? Yeah?

922
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 1: I kind of thought that too, But the more I

923
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: looked at his picks, his first three are really solid.

924
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: His first three are really solid, and clearly they are

925
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:57,240
Speaker 1: carrying him to victory.

926
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 3: Wow.

927
00:55:57,920 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 2: So okay, I'm a star.

928
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: Faring as well. You were not fair my last Josh,

929
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: you were in last currently.

930
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 2: Okay, but that's fine.

931
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 3: Voting is early, so.

932
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 2: You know, as I say, in the draft, and I

933
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: took a particular approach me. It was a me first approach,

934
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 2: not a voter first approach. So I'm glad to see

935
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 2: that's panning out.

936
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 3: You go with that.

937
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: Yes, it was a fun draft, and if you're a

938
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 1: family member, you get that bonus content every month. We

939
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 1: love doing those drafts, so we hope you seek it out.

940
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: We thank Clara for being a family plus member and

941
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,920
Speaker 1: for listening all those years. In addition to keeping us

942
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 1: doing what we're doing. Your family membership comes with perks

943
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 1: like those bonus shows, but also you get to listen

944
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,280
Speaker 1: early in ad free and when we say listen early,

945
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 1: I mean we don't want to disrupt your routine if

946
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 1: you're a Friday morning person or maybe a Monday morning person.

947
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: But Sam and Joe, with some help from Joe, of course,

948
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: Sam's been knocking these shows out sometimes like Thursday morning,

949
00:56:57,960 --> 00:56:59,240
Speaker 1: we're dropping them in your feed.

950
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 2: I have notice that, no kidding, they have been putting

951
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 2: in the work and they're doing as we said at

952
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 2: the top of the show, there's video elements involved now,

953
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 2: yet they're still managing to get these things out quite

954
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 2: early for our family members. So that is that's like

955
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 2: a significant benefit for sure.

956
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 3: It is.

957
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, the weekly newsletter, which you talked about in our

958
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: review of Frankenstein. You also get to be part of

959
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 1: the Film Spotting Family discord, which is a blast. There's

960
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: over four hundred film spotting listeners, lots of channels there

961
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 1: devoted to all sorts of subjects. You can learn more

962
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: about joining the Film Spotting Family at Filmspottingfamily dot com.

963
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:39,919
Speaker 1: And we will remind you that another way you can

964
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: help a show like ours, which, yes, we've been around

965
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 1: a long time, but we are still an independently produced show.

966
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 1: We depend on your support via things like membership, but

967
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 1: also spreading the word, and you can do that by

968
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: taking a minute to give us a review or rating

969
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 1: us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It does help us

970
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 1: reach new listeners.

971
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 2: Heday, this is what you wanted? Isn't it? Money in

972
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 2: the House?

973
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 3: The Partty Tommy, I Love Your Saucy.

974
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: Director Nia DaCosta started her career with the indie thriller

975
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 1: Little Woods in twenty eighteen. It starred Tessa Thompson. You

976
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,479
Speaker 1: were a fan, Josh. Also, you were a relative fan

977
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: of her forays into franchise filmmaking twenty twenty one's Candy

978
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 1: Man and twenty twenty three's The Marvels. She's back with Heda,

979
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 1: which she wrote and directed, also back in the title

980
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 1: role Tessa Thompson. Heada is Dacosta's adaptation of Heada Gabbler,

981
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 1: the eighteen ninety one play by Norwegian playwright Henrik Gibson

982
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 1: about a bored newlywed whose former lover is competing with

983
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 1: her new husband for a prize academic position. DaCosta updates

984
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 1: the setting to nineteen fifties England and makes the former

985
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 1: lover a woman played by the great German actress Nina Hass,

986
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 1: who you may know from Tar and Christian Petsul's Phoenix.

987
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: I said you were a fan of Little Woods and

988
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 1: a relative fan of those other two films. If I'm

989
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: not mistaken, you can tell me if I am. I

990
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: look this up on your website and Josh, I saw

991
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 1: the exact same star rating for all three films, three stars.

992
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 3: Are you going to depart from that? On Heda?

993
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: Is this a film that is going to maybe go

994
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:37,720
Speaker 1: up to number one on your DaCosta ranking or is

995
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 1: it right there with the others?

996
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's right there in that universe. I mean, this

997
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 2: is just a good filmmaker doing interesting stuff reliably across

998
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 2: a range of genres, with a range of material. I

999
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 2: don't know that we've seen the best of Nia DaCosta yet.

1000
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to that Hedda. Is you know equally solid?

1001
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 2: I would say, I don't know. I think I did

1002
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 2: rank the her films on Letterbox. I think I might

1003
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 2: have still have Little Woods at the top. The performances

1004
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 2: there are just so good, and the imagery that DaCosta

1005
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 2: gives us in a familiar Indie narrative, I would say,

1006
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 2: are incredibly strong. Had yeah, another good one, Another good

1007
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 2: one from Nia DaCosta. Now you described already the way

1008
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 2: she scrambles, you know, race, gender, and sexuality. Very interesting,

1009
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 2: a lot of implications to that. But what I found

1010
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 2: most compelling about her take on this Adam and I

1011
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 2: have not seen a production of this play. Am not

1012
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 2: that familiar with the source material, so I don't know

1013
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 2: if this is in there at all, But Tessa Thompson's

1014
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 2: head to here is almost demon possessed in her depiction,

1015
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 2: if not downright demonic. Now we know that da Costa

1016
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 2: has delved in horror with her Candy Man remake, right,

1017
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 2: so maybe this shouldn't be shocking. But I noticed early

1018
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 2: on that the soundtrack has these drums that are almost

1019
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 2: like sacrificial type drums. There's this hissing or sign that

1020
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 2: that's very much used in horror films, These insinuating size,

1021
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 2: I would say, And then how does manipulations here of

1022
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 2: everyone around her? They're framed like a tempter so much.

1023
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 2: She's promising sexual favors at one point, another point, she's

1024
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 2: you know, encouraging someone to drink deeply from bourbon even

1025
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 2: though she knows it's going to be disastrous. There is

1026
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 2: an image, a great DaCosta image of a gun how

1027
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 2: offers to a character, and we see it in this

1028
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 2: this close up of their hands, the gun passing hands

1029
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 2: before a roaring fireplace. So all of this is just

1030
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 2: you know, adding to this idea of Heda as this

1031
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 2: almost possessed figure in the way she's manipulating people. Now,

1032
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 2: Thompson's performance, I'm sure it's going to get a ton

1033
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 2: of praise, maybe be considered one of the best of

1034
01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 2: the year. I think she's good here. I think it's

1035
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 2: pretty focused on the deliciousness of this evil and playing

1036
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 2: up that part you mentioned Nina Haas. That's the performance

1037
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 2: in this film for me, as in part of the

1038
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 2: gender swapping. As you said, this rival professor to head

1039
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 2: his husband heada former lover man. She arrives at the

1040
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 2: party at Heada's party like this goddess, and it's part

1041
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 2: of a musical moment. I'm not going to detail because

1042
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 2: it might be for our year end rap party where

1043
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 2: we do music moments of the year. It might be

1044
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 2: one of those. For me, but she arrives at the

1045
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 2: party with this air and then head of chips away

1046
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 2: at it as the night goes on, And part of

1047
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 2: the I guess evil deliciousness of this movie is watching

1048
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 2: that fight between them, the back and forth. So I'm

1049
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 2: curious now that I've sat with this had my impressions,

1050
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 2: to see what others think, especially those more familiar with

1051
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 2: both the Ibsen play and those who maybe have more

1052
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 2: nuanced thoughts about the race and sexuality and gender mixing

1053
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 2: that's going on here, Because yeah, I'm sure there's a

1054
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:09,720
Speaker 2: lot to dig into there as well, So how do

1055
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 2: yeah check it out? I think Tessa Thompson will probably

1056
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 2: be coming up, maybe not necessarily on my list the

1057
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 2: best performances of the year, but I bet a good

1058
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 2: number of other folks will have her.

1059
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 1: There is definitely one I will dig into. Before all

1060
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 1: of that end of year talk that is available exclusively

1061
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:32,760
Speaker 1: on Prime Video had a battled social Conventions Josh Boxer,

1062
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 1: Christy Martin literally battled in the ring. Let's get to Christy.

1063
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 2: You must be the lady I've been hearing so much about.

1064
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 3: Yes, sir Son, to meet you, mister King.

1065
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 2: Tell me about youse. Jesse here says that you fight

1066
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 2: an old pink.

1067
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 3: I'm from West Virginia.

1068
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 2: What's that guy to do with pink?

1069
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 3: Nothing, sir, I'm just telling you about myself.

1070
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:03,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, pink was my dear. Christy is director David Michaud's

1071
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 2: biopic about Martin, a professional boxer in the nineties and

1072
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 2: into the two thousands. Sidney Sweeney plays Martin, whose career

1073
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 2: was plagued by abuse and drug addiction. Adam, I know

1074
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 2: that you've been teaching a course on sport and films,

1075
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 2: so you've been immersed in this subgenre of recent months.

1076
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,840
Speaker 2: I guess that's where I'd like to start, is just

1077
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 2: to hear where Christy falls among, you know, among the

1078
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 2: stratosphere of these sports films.

1079
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 1: Well, not only just sports films broadly, but most recently.

1080
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 1: In the class, we talked about Million Dollar Baby, and

1081
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 1: we've been talking about the archetypes in sports films so

1082
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 1: very much thinking about female boxers on screens. And one

1083
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:56,360
Speaker 1: of the things we talked about is The Way, And

1084
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 1: there's a lot that's been written about this, but we've

1085
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:04,560
Speaker 1: talked about how well that film portends to be a

1086
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 1: fairly transgressive portrayal of a woman on screen because it's

1087
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 1: about a female boxer and it puts her at the forefront.

1088
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:16,440
Speaker 1: But I don't think this is necessarily controversial for anyone

1089
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 1: who's seen the movie. You can get into the finer

1090
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 1: details about how this is the case, and there's a

1091
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 1: lot to dig into, but it's really the Clint Eastwood

1092
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 1: characters movie, and that undoes a lot of the potential

1093
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 1: transgressiveness of.

1094
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 3: The film Million Dollar Baby.

1095
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 1: Here, it's Christie's movie, and you could say, well, does

1096
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 1: it ultimately in a way become a film that's just

1097
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 1: as much about her husband played by Ben Foster, or

1098
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 1: is her character defined just as much by him as

1099
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: the character and Million Dollar Baby Maggie is defined by

1100
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 1: Frankie Eastwood's case character And the answer might be, yeah,

1101
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 1: it's similar. The difference, though, is that Christy is the

1102
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: victim of abuse. She's the victim of domestic violence. This

1103
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 1: is a movie in which that's part of what the

1104
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: film is detailing. It's about a character who is dominated

1105
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 1: by her husband, and not only is Sweeney's performance very forcible,

1106
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 1: but Ben Foster as Jim is the type of character

1107
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 1: and he gives that type of performance the subtlety it needs,

1108
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 1: where the first time he says to her, just in

1109
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 1: the kitchen of their apartment at this point, before she's

1110
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 1: really hit the big time and made any money, when

1111
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 1: he says to her, if you leave me, I'll kill you.

1112
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:57,400
Speaker 1: He has enough sense as a performer and Mishad has

1113
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 1: enough subtlety as a director not to make that this

1114
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:08,360
Speaker 1: grotesque moment, not to underline it dramatically, because that's just

1115
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 1: another moment to that character. That's as matter of fact

1116
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 1: as him saying I'm gonna go wash the car. And

1117
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: that's how the movie treats it, and it becomes something

1118
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,440
Speaker 1: that's a refrain that you know, it's something he says

1119
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:27,960
Speaker 1: to her hundreds of times over the course of their

1120
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 1: lives the next decade or two decades that they spend together,

1121
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:34,240
Speaker 1: and we do hear him say it a few more times,

1122
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 1: and it becomes more pointed and more violent, but you

1123
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 1: understand that even though her character might be wrapped up

1124
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 1: in his character. That's the essence of this film, And

1125
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 1: like Christie herself, the movie's redemption comes in the second half,

1126
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 1: when the boxer's focus turns to reclaiming her identity rather

1127
01:07:58,040 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 1: than winning in the ring.

1128
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 4: My hat on.

1129
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 3: That's Mahaus.

1130
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 2: Well, thanks.

1131
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 1: I've seen a few comments here and there that say

1132
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:20,120
Speaker 1: the movie and some like the movie, Josh, But either way,

1133
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 1: some have commented on how much it does hit sports

1134
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:28,360
Speaker 1: movie or boxing cliches. I think it goes against some

1135
01:08:28,400 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 1: of those cliches in the way I just mentioned. But

1136
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:34,519
Speaker 1: I think what else is interesting about this film, and

1137
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 1: it goes back to the the quote you heard just

1138
01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 1: as we were coming out of the trailer, the idea

1139
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 1: that not only is Sidney Sweeney playing this this character,

1140
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 1: this real life character, Christy, but Christy. It turns out,

1141
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 1: as the movie Portrayser was always playing a character. She

1142
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:58,880
Speaker 1: was playing this character wearing pink. She was playing this

1143
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:04,080
Speaker 1: hetero normative character that she never was. She was portraying

1144
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 1: the character that America needed her to be, her husband

1145
01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 1: needed her to be, demanded her to be, that her

1146
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 1: mother demanded her to be.

1147
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 3: And when the.

1148
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:18,600
Speaker 1: Movie is focused on that, of course, the beginning of

1149
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:20,280
Speaker 1: the film is going to follow some of the sports

1150
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:23,759
Speaker 1: movie cliches because it's her pathway out of poverty. She's

1151
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:27,800
Speaker 1: going to have those fight scenes and that feels very familiar.

1152
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:30,680
Speaker 1: But especially in the second half of the film, some

1153
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:34,000
Speaker 1: of those scenes and that reclaiming of her identity, those

1154
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 1: moments are chilling, and that ultimately was what made this

1155
01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:42,479
Speaker 1: movie worthwhile for me. And I'll say about David Nishad,

1156
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 1: some of us seeing his name attached to it, not

1157
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 1: that he's a director who I necessarily have seen all

1158
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:53,519
Speaker 1: of his films and thought he's this tremendous oteur. But

1159
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 1: I remember quite liking Animal Kingdom, his debut film, and

1160
01:09:57,439 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 1: thinking why is he doing this sports biopic movie. This

1161
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like the kind of movie that he would do.

1162
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 1: And then of course, as I am, especially watching the

1163
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 1: second half of the film, I'm thinking, this is the

1164
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:13,320
Speaker 1: guy who made Animal Kingdom, This is the guy who

1165
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 1: made a film about families and family violence and treating

1166
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 1: family violence as if it's a matter of fact and

1167
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 1: an everyday occurrence, and also portrayed a mother character, Jackie

1168
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 1: Weaver in that movie, Yeah, who will do anything she

1169
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 1: has to do to protect her family. In this movie,

1170
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:43,799
Speaker 1: Merrit Weaver plays Christie's mom, and she's a very different character.

1171
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:46,479
Speaker 1: I don't think she's as interesting a character or giving

1172
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:51,759
Speaker 1: his interesting a performance necessarily, but in her mind, she's

1173
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:55,519
Speaker 1: doing everything she has to do to protect her family,

1174
01:10:55,960 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 1: the pain that she's inflicting on Christy is protecting her

1175
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:06,000
Speaker 1: and protecting her as well and her family projecting the

1176
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 1: image that she believes she has to project. So for me,

1177
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:13,400
Speaker 1: there was a very clear through line from Animal Kingdom

1178
01:11:13,479 --> 01:11:17,520
Speaker 1: and some of Mishad's other work through Christy. So ultimately,

1179
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 1: I do think Christy is worth seeing, especially as well

1180
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:24,479
Speaker 1: because you know, Sweeney's gonna come up in discussion of

1181
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 1: best performances of the year, and I understand, I understand why.

1182
01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:29,800
Speaker 1: I don't know that she's going to necessarily make the

1183
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:31,599
Speaker 1: cut for me, but it is a.

1184
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:32,560
Speaker 3: Very good performance.

1185
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:35,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask, because I'm despite

1186
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:39,559
Speaker 2: all the you know, publicity she gets. I actually haven't

1187
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:42,320
Speaker 2: seen a lot of her work on screen. I did

1188
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 2: watch I Have Anither. It was like a Netflix movie

1189
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 2: Echo Valley, very small, there was no attention given to it.

1190
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 2: She's opposite Julianne Moore there. I mean, not the greatest movie,

1191
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:56,200
Speaker 2: but she's incredibly good in it. So yeah, I was

1192
01:11:56,280 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 2: curious to hear how she wasn't something that, as you say,

1193
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:02,480
Speaker 2: is definitely being set up for awards consideration.

1194
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:08,080
Speaker 1: Christy currently playing in wide release next week, we are

1195
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:11,680
Speaker 1: going to get to the latest from your Goos Lanthemos

1196
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 1: and his his muse, his star Emma Stone. It is Bogonia.

1197
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:19,200
Speaker 1: We will also talk about Kelly Reichert's The Mastermind. That's

1198
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:21,479
Speaker 1: another one that I think I saw at least two

1199
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 1: weeks ago. But Josh, you're finally gonna get a chance

1200
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 1: to see it. That once starts Josh O'Connor, So we're

1201
01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:28,920
Speaker 1: gonna give it some time. I got a double excited

1202
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 1: that you're going to get to see it.

1203
01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:32,680
Speaker 2: Double feature plan for the week. I'm adam, I hope

1204
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:36,800
Speaker 2: I'm doing this right. I'm doing The Mastermind. First little

1205
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:41,040
Speaker 2: meal Break, then Bogonia. So it seemed like the later

1206
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:43,639
Speaker 2: night film to me, Bogonia, But I don't know, I'll

1207
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:44,080
Speaker 2: find out.

1208
01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:46,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, that might that might be fair.

1209
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:51,040
Speaker 1: Then there are other films opening that we hope to see,

1210
01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:54,639
Speaker 1: the new one from Jafar Panahi It was Just an Accident,

1211
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:57,439
Speaker 1: and Lynn Ramsey's new film with Jennifer Lawrence and Robert

1212
01:12:57,439 --> 01:13:00,360
Speaker 1: Pattins and that's Die My Love. So it very well

1213
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:03,400
Speaker 1: could be that you will hear talk about all four

1214
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:07,880
Speaker 1: of those films on next weeks show. We just don't

1215
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:10,439
Speaker 1: rest here on film Spotting. We will also have results

1216
01:13:10,439 --> 01:13:13,680
Speaker 1: from the current deeply flawed film Spotting poll asking you

1217
01:13:13,720 --> 01:13:17,920
Speaker 1: to choose the second best. Just a burning question. Everyone

1218
01:13:17,960 --> 01:13:19,839
Speaker 1: needed to know the answer to what is the second

1219
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:21,479
Speaker 1: best Robert Zemeckis movie?

1220
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:22,599
Speaker 2: We're going to decide?

1221
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:25,120
Speaker 1: I gave a sacred col review to the director's first best,

1222
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 1: Back to the Future, on last week's show. If you

1223
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:31,000
Speaker 1: haven't voted yet, and if you haven't left a comment yet,

1224
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 1: you can do that at film spotting dot net. And

1225
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:37,080
Speaker 1: if you would like to see what upcoming shows we

1226
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 1: have planned, you can go to film spotting dot net

1227
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 1: slash episodes.

1228
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:44,599
Speaker 2: Exciting news Adam, It's been a little while since we've

1229
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 2: had an official film Spotting meet up, and I've been

1230
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:51,840
Speaker 2: here in Scotland for a couple months. It's time I

1231
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 2: meet are UK friends. Not going to do the first

1232
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:56,559
Speaker 2: one here in Scotland. I hope to do maybe one

1233
01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:58,680
Speaker 2: at some point there, but instead I'm going to be

1234
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:03,519
Speaker 2: down in London in December. And I thought, well, one

1235
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:05,800
Speaker 2: thing I've got to do is put together a film

1236
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:09,200
Speaker 2: spotting meetup. I did one back in twenty seventeen and

1237
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:12,160
Speaker 2: I don't know we probably should never do this, Adam.

1238
01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:14,439
Speaker 2: I don't want to offend any of the meetups we've

1239
01:14:14,439 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 2: had over the years. But if I were to make

1240
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:20,080
Speaker 2: a top five meetups, we've been doing this long enough

1241
01:14:20,120 --> 01:14:24,720
Speaker 2: now London twenty seventeen, London would be on it. That

1242
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:29,080
Speaker 2: was such a blast, a great got a little crazy. Well, yeah,

1243
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:31,280
Speaker 2: I would not repeat it. I would not repeat it

1244
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:34,600
Speaker 2: at this age because we started at the BFI, you know,

1245
01:14:34,720 --> 01:14:39,600
Speaker 2: very respectable, nice table, everyone around the table talking somehow,

1246
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:41,720
Speaker 2: I mean, memory is hazy. At this point we ended

1247
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:44,160
Speaker 2: up at I believe it was a Puerto Rican bar

1248
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:48,440
Speaker 2: not too far away restaurant slash bar. Continued the conversation

1249
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:52,880
Speaker 2: there and somehow, somehow, I blame this on listeners, we

1250
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:55,280
Speaker 2: ended up at disco far into the night on the

1251
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:58,200
Speaker 2: other side of the city. Irresponsible parents Debbie and I

1252
01:14:58,240 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 2: had the kids back in the airbnb alone. We did

1253
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:04,559
Speaker 2: not plan to be out that late. Needless to say,

1254
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:07,280
Speaker 2: it was a lot of fun. So yeah, going back

1255
01:15:07,280 --> 01:15:11,680
Speaker 2: to London, not to recreate that, to be much more responsible,

1256
01:15:12,160 --> 01:15:14,960
Speaker 2: but still to hang out with film spotting listeners. Here's

1257
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:16,960
Speaker 2: the date I do have that now I can give

1258
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:21,679
Speaker 2: to everyone. It's going to be Thursday, December eleven. Location

1259
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:25,320
Speaker 2: is still to be determined. I do know earlier that

1260
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:28,639
Speaker 2: day I'll be checking out. We got our tickets the

1261
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:33,479
Speaker 2: Wes Anderson exhibit at the Design Museum, which I think

1262
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 2: is just opening here in the UK, So I'm going

1263
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:38,679
Speaker 2: to be checking that out earlier, and then that night Thursday,

1264
01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:42,639
Speaker 2: December eleven, hanging out with Film Spotting listeners stay tuned

1265
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:46,080
Speaker 2: for those location details. Will probably send them out via

1266
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:49,479
Speaker 2: the newsletter to Film Spotting family members will put in

1267
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 2: the show notes for everyone. And yeah, I'll let you

1268
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:54,000
Speaker 2: know as soon as that is nailed down.

1269
01:15:54,479 --> 01:15:57,240
Speaker 1: You know, the gauntlet has been thrown.

1270
01:15:57,720 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 3: Now.

1271
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:02,120
Speaker 1: I can't let it stand that you're obviously cooler host.

1272
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:05,080
Speaker 1: So the next meetup that I have, whenever that is,

1273
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:07,600
Speaker 1: it's it's gonna be an all timer. It's gonna be

1274
01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:10,719
Speaker 1: a rager. Yes, you might go on for days. Okay,

1275
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:14,519
Speaker 1: someone's gonna benefit from everything Josh just said and did.

1276
01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:19,960
Speaker 2: It's gonna be crazy, Adam, we want you to survive it.

1277
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:26,040
Speaker 2: So let's let's not get carried away. Who's up for it.

1278
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:27,200
Speaker 2: Let's see what happens.

1279
01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:31,639
Speaker 1: Okay, we do have another mention for our mastermind prize pack.

1280
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:35,800
Speaker 1: We're partnering with movie on this. It features items from

1281
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:39,200
Speaker 1: the film's fictional framing Him Museum of Art. For a

1282
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:41,320
Speaker 1: chance to win, all you have to do is send

1283
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:43,960
Speaker 1: a note to feedback at film spotting dot Net. The

1284
01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:47,639
Speaker 1: subject line should be Mastermind Prize and in the body.

1285
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:49,479
Speaker 1: All you have to do you don't even need to

1286
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:51,840
Speaker 1: provide any explanation, but we don't mind if you do,

1287
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:54,720
Speaker 1: because we'll probably share it on next week's show when

1288
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:56,680
Speaker 1: we announce the winner. You just have to tell us

1289
01:16:56,720 --> 01:17:00,639
Speaker 1: your favorite Kelly Reiker character from any of Kelly Rye movies,

1290
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:04,160
Speaker 1: your favorite Kelly Reicher character. We've gotten some good responses,

1291
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:07,519
Speaker 1: Josh so far, like Kurt will Oldham and Old Joy,

1292
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:11,920
Speaker 1: Lily Gladstone, the Rancher in Certain Women, King Lou, We

1293
01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:15,519
Speaker 1: love King Lou from Yeah Kirst Caw as well. All

1294
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:18,360
Speaker 1: you gotta do send that email feedback at film spotting

1295
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:18,840
Speaker 1: dot Net.

1296
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:22,639
Speaker 2: No votes yet for my em in Meeks cut off.

1297
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:25,240
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, not yet, Josh, but that doesn't

1298
01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 1: mean they won't come in.

1299
01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:28,479
Speaker 3: We'll see.

1300
01:17:29,000 --> 01:17:32,280
Speaker 2: Quick note about our sister podcast, The Next Picture Show.

1301
01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 2: Looking at Cinema's present via its pass, they have a

1302
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:39,840
Speaker 2: new pairing very exciting. They are looking back at Fellini's

1303
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:42,400
Speaker 2: Eight and a Half in order to pair it with

1304
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:48,080
Speaker 2: raw Do Jude's new film Dracula and Adam. I would

1305
01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:51,719
Speaker 2: be over the moon about this. Dracula first of all

1306
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 2: horror related. You know, I'm in Jude, the director of

1307
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:57,960
Speaker 2: last year's Do not expect too much from the End

1308
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:00,439
Speaker 2: of the World, which we both I believe on our

1309
01:18:00,479 --> 01:18:01,760
Speaker 2: top ten lists. Is that right?

1310
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:02,559
Speaker 3: Yes, we did.

1311
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:04,479
Speaker 2: The only thing holding me back I've heard this is

1312
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:07,280
Speaker 2: like at least three hours. Have you heard similar?

1313
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:08,200
Speaker 3: That's the problem.

1314
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:11,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, I even I have a link for it,

1315
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 1: and I've had it for a few weeks. The problem

1316
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:16,960
Speaker 1: is I think it's two hours and fifty nine minutes long,

1317
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:19,400
Speaker 1: and as badly as I want to watch it, as

1318
01:18:19,439 --> 01:18:21,519
Speaker 1: badly as I need to see the new film from

1319
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:24,559
Speaker 1: Radu Judah, there is just no way right now I

1320
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 1: can see a three hour film. So I'm gonna have

1321
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:29,400
Speaker 1: to book the time soon. It's just not going to

1322
01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:29,920
Speaker 1: be right now.

1323
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:33,240
Speaker 2: Josh, Well, the next Picture show folks are better critics

1324
01:18:33,240 --> 01:18:35,080
Speaker 2: than we are, so they are on top of it.

1325
01:18:35,160 --> 01:18:38,280
Speaker 2: If you want to get some talk about Dracula, you

1326
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:42,240
Speaker 2: need to download these episodes, which you can do every Tuesday,

1327
01:18:42,240 --> 01:18:44,560
Speaker 2: and you can find them wherever you get your podcasts.

1328
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:47,960
Speaker 2: All right. Time now for Mascer Theater. More proof that

1329
01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:50,880
Speaker 2: we're not the best film critics or film actors. This

1330
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:52,880
Speaker 2: is where we perform a scene and you get a

1331
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:55,920
Speaker 2: chance to win a film spotting prize. Last time we

1332
01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:57,120
Speaker 2: massacred this.

1333
01:18:57,200 --> 01:19:01,160
Speaker 3: Scene you're doing here.

1334
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:04,120
Speaker 2: I just came to make sure that you were all right.

1335
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:04,920
Speaker 4: You did not.

1336
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:07,799
Speaker 5: You're trying to horn in on my source.

1337
01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:09,640
Speaker 3: How come you get to meet deep through I'm the

1338
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:14,360
Speaker 3: one who actually saw that movie. Hi, I'm Carl Bernstein.

1339
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:16,120
Speaker 2: You're supposed to be checking phone Wreck.

1340
01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:18,640
Speaker 1: I didn't give me a headache.

1341
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:20,280
Speaker 3: I'm not whining. I'm exclaining.

1342
01:19:20,439 --> 01:19:21,080
Speaker 4: You're whining.

1343
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:25,599
Speaker 2: I'm out talk about That was Will Ferrell and Bruce

1344
01:19:25,680 --> 01:19:29,679
Speaker 2: McCullough in nineteen ninety nine's Dick, written by Cheryl Longen

1345
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:34,200
Speaker 2: and Andrew Fleming. Fleming also directed that massacre was part

1346
01:19:34,280 --> 01:19:37,080
Speaker 2: of our top five Robert Redford movies. It was a

1347
01:19:37,080 --> 01:19:39,200
Speaker 2: show we did a couple of weeks ago. There is

1348
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 2: always a tie in, So why that scene from Dick?

1349
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:47,200
Speaker 1: Here is Glenn Eric Hamilton in Seattle Glenn's first time

1350
01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:49,880
Speaker 1: answering a massacre theater challenge. As you said during the show,

1351
01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:52,640
Speaker 1: one tie in is obvious Woodward and Bernstein, Redford and

1352
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:55,679
Speaker 1: Hoffman's characters and all the presidents men, or Will Ferrell

1353
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:59,639
Speaker 1: and Bruce McCullough, and Dick's bizarro recounting of Watergate. Beyond that,

1354
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:03,760
Speaker 1: they're contrasts. Maybe the comedy journalist lust for fame contrasted

1355
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:08,000
Speaker 1: with Redford's real life ambivalence about celebrity. Or Redford's willingness

1356
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,840
Speaker 1: to share the spotlight with co stars versus Ferrell and

1357
01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:14,160
Speaker 1: McCullough constantly trying to cut one another out of the scoop.

1358
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:17,280
Speaker 1: I'm really reaching. This movie is a favorite in our home.

1359
01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:21,759
Speaker 1: Everybody loves Dick like Looney Tunes. Educating me on movies

1360
01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:25,519
Speaker 1: from Hollywood's golden age. Dick is how our teenager understands Watergate.

1361
01:20:25,960 --> 01:20:29,160
Speaker 1: Thanks for such a fantastic tribute to Redford, and congratulations

1362
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:32,000
Speaker 1: on twenty years of excellence. Neither of you smell like

1363
01:20:32,040 --> 01:20:36,639
Speaker 1: cabbage writing into Salve Adam's wounded ego. Seriously, these segments

1364
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:38,200
Speaker 1: give me a lot of joy, and I don't write

1365
01:20:38,240 --> 01:20:40,920
Speaker 1: in more often only because I assume that everyone's saying

1366
01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:43,840
Speaker 1: that already, and I've assumed that the hat's been more

1367
01:20:44,240 --> 01:20:45,600
Speaker 1: full than advertised.

1368
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:46,280
Speaker 3: Thank you, Glenn.

1369
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:50,160
Speaker 2: See it's working, Adam, you can I call it a

1370
01:20:50,200 --> 01:20:55,320
Speaker 2: wine campaign? Is getting more can massacre theater entries? I

1371
01:20:55,400 --> 01:20:58,519
Speaker 2: also like Glenn's approach here have we seen this before?

1372
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:02,880
Speaker 2: We're rather than going with connections, he's going with contrasts.

1373
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:05,880
Speaker 2: I mean, this is opening up the entries are going

1374
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:08,160
Speaker 2: to come flooding in now. This is opening up a

1375
01:21:08,160 --> 01:21:10,640
Speaker 2: whole new avenue for massacre THEA sure, all right. We

1376
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:14,160
Speaker 2: also heard from Michael R. Hartman in Brooklyn, New York.

1377
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:17,160
Speaker 2: The scene was from nineteen ninety nine. It's hilarious, Dick.

1378
01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:19,920
Speaker 2: The most obvious tie in is it's a parody of

1379
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:22,719
Speaker 2: all the President's Men, which was discussed endlessly. The Robert

1380
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:25,759
Speaker 2: Redford Memorial is one of Redford's best movies, not named

1381
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:31,000
Speaker 2: Three Days of the Condor possible secondary connections stretching here.

1382
01:21:31,560 --> 01:21:35,440
Speaker 2: Redford famously played death in an episode of the original

1383
01:21:35,479 --> 01:21:38,880
Speaker 2: Twilight Zone, and a number of actors from Dick, Terry Gar,

1384
01:21:39,000 --> 01:21:41,960
Speaker 2: Harry Shear, and Dan Hadea appeared in the nineteen eighties

1385
01:21:42,479 --> 01:21:46,360
Speaker 2: Twilight Zone reboot. Don't remember this. Don't worry. No one

1386
01:21:46,360 --> 01:21:50,400
Speaker 2: else does either. Michael could be making all of this

1387
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:51,880
Speaker 2: up as far as I know.

1388
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:54,599
Speaker 1: No, he's not, because I think during our Top five

1389
01:21:54,680 --> 01:21:59,800
Speaker 1: I referenced the Fresh Air conversation with Redford that I

1390
01:22:00,280 --> 01:22:04,400
Speaker 1: parts of, and that was either his first TV appearance

1391
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:07,519
Speaker 1: or one of them, and they played a clip from it,

1392
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:12,479
Speaker 1: him playing death, please please open the door.

1393
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:14,240
Speaker 2: They need help.

1394
01:22:15,080 --> 01:22:16,200
Speaker 3: You're lying to me.

1395
01:22:17,360 --> 01:22:19,480
Speaker 2: I know you.

1396
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:24,080
Speaker 1: You can't flu me. The entire conceit of it, I

1397
01:22:24,120 --> 01:22:27,439
Speaker 1: believe is that a woman is so afraid of dying,

1398
01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:30,719
Speaker 1: she's afraid death is going to come for her whatever.

1399
01:22:30,760 --> 01:22:35,000
Speaker 1: She never opens her door or anything, and then somehow

1400
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:39,639
Speaker 1: he convinces her to let him in her house or something,

1401
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:42,040
Speaker 1: and of course he's actually the Grim Reaper.

1402
01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:48,559
Speaker 2: If isn't me you're afraid of, you understand me. What

1403
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:56,800
Speaker 2: you're afraid of is the unknown. Don't don't be afraid that.

1404
01:22:56,920 --> 01:22:57,919
Speaker 2: I am afraid.

1405
01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:01,800
Speaker 3: The runnings over and that's him.

1406
01:23:01,880 --> 01:23:04,920
Speaker 1: Redford's playing death and it's an early episode of the

1407
01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 1: Twilight Zone. It sounded fascinating, so I think it's available

1408
01:23:08,400 --> 01:23:10,720
Speaker 1: on YouTube. I could be wrong. Here's Sean Means from

1409
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:13,360
Speaker 1: the Salt Lake Tribune. I went looking for other connections

1410
01:23:13,360 --> 01:23:16,080
Speaker 1: between Redford and the Dick cast, but didn't find much.

1411
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:18,800
Speaker 1: Dan Hedea, who played Nixon and Dick, did appear in

1412
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 1: a civil action for which Redford was a producer, but

1413
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:24,519
Speaker 1: did not act. There is this though. In twenty fourteen,

1414
01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:27,080
Speaker 1: Redford and Ferrell collaborated on a humorous video as a

1415
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:29,360
Speaker 1: fundraiser for the Colorado River Project.

1416
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:32,559
Speaker 3: The Colorado River is one of the most loved and

1417
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:36,840
Speaker 3: hardest working rivers in the world, but we've over used it.

1418
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:37,800
Speaker 1: Most years.

1419
01:23:37,800 --> 01:23:40,200
Speaker 2: The river drives up even before it reaches the sea.

1420
01:23:40,840 --> 01:23:44,280
Speaker 1: Redford recorded a serious PSA encouraging an effort to raise

1421
01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:47,920
Speaker 1: the river by releasing more water into the Colorado than

1422
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:51,960
Speaker 1: Ferrell countered with his own PSA, urging instead that engineers

1423
01:23:52,160 --> 01:23:56,320
Speaker 1: move the ocean. It's a testament to Redford's environmental advocacy

1424
01:23:56,439 --> 01:23:58,320
Speaker 1: and his ability to laugh at himself.

1425
01:23:59,400 --> 01:24:04,559
Speaker 5: Hello there, Hello there, I'm William Farrell. Recently we've been

1426
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:07,440
Speaker 5: hearing some talk of a little problem in the Colorado

1427
01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:11,599
Speaker 5: River delta. We got a old sun dance riding around

1428
01:24:12,439 --> 01:24:14,599
Speaker 5: trying to raise the Colorado River.

1429
01:24:14,479 --> 01:24:15,559
Speaker 2: And restore its flow.

1430
01:24:16,080 --> 01:24:20,000
Speaker 5: And I say, do we really need more river. I mean, hell,

1431
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:24,400
Speaker 5: we got plenty of otion. Let's move it. Let's reconnect

1432
01:24:24,479 --> 01:24:27,679
Speaker 5: these things the old fashioned way, the American way.

1433
01:24:27,840 --> 01:24:31,240
Speaker 2: Wow, we listeners are doing some Woodward and Bernstein level

1434
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:36,960
Speaker 2: digging here, some journalistic investigation to make these connections. Let's

1435
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:41,639
Speaker 2: share one more email we got from Chad Sanders. When

1436
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:44,240
Speaker 2: Dick came out, I was baffled as to who this

1437
01:24:44,320 --> 01:24:47,760
Speaker 2: movie was made for besides me. Dunstan Williams might draw

1438
01:24:47,840 --> 01:24:50,120
Speaker 2: young crowd, but it's doubtful they'd be interested in a

1439
01:24:50,160 --> 01:24:53,759
Speaker 2: Watergate movie with serious, deep cut references to a twenty

1440
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:56,720
Speaker 2: plus year old movie they'd never seen. Likewise, I felt

1441
01:24:56,760 --> 01:24:59,160
Speaker 2: that folks who lived through the Vietnam era probably weren't

1442
01:24:59,200 --> 01:25:01,360
Speaker 2: lining up for what the radio box seems to promise

1443
01:25:01,479 --> 01:25:04,280
Speaker 2: is a teen comedy. It felt like I, a high

1444
01:25:04,320 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 2: school journalism teacher who screened all the presidents Men twice

1445
01:25:07,240 --> 01:25:10,000
Speaker 2: a year for my interro students, was the sweet spot

1446
01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:12,960
Speaker 2: for this movie's demographic. Not only did I catch every

1447
01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:15,760
Speaker 2: nod to all the President's men, they knew I'd go

1448
01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:18,200
Speaker 2: bananas every time another Kids in the Hall or snl

1449
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:20,719
Speaker 2: alum would show up, not to mention inga from young

1450
01:25:20,720 --> 01:25:24,800
Speaker 2: Frankenstein and Nick Tortully. I can't imagine there are many

1451
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:26,640
Speaker 2: people who've seen Dick as many times as I have,

1452
01:25:26,760 --> 01:25:29,160
Speaker 2: and the number of people who've seen all the President's

1453
01:25:29,200 --> 01:25:33,000
Speaker 2: Men and Dick as many times as I have got

1454
01:25:33,000 --> 01:25:35,599
Speaker 2: to be just one. I know the MESCA Theater answer

1455
01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:38,040
Speaker 2: probably twenty five percent of the time, but I usually

1456
01:25:38,040 --> 01:25:41,200
Speaker 2: don't email you. This felt like a requirement to take

1457
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:43,960
Speaker 2: the time to submit, even if it meant missing the

1458
01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:47,240
Speaker 2: field trip lunch to McDonald's to do it. This is

1459
01:25:47,280 --> 01:25:49,400
Speaker 2: a reference to the movie Dick, a scene which people

1460
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:53,479
Speaker 2: who've only seen it seven times or so may not remember. Wow.

1461
01:25:55,320 --> 01:25:57,719
Speaker 1: So I don't mean to put you on the spot, Josh,

1462
01:25:57,760 --> 01:26:00,240
Speaker 1: but I find that often you don't get some of

1463
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:03,040
Speaker 1: the pop culture references that I make or Sam makes,

1464
01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:05,840
Speaker 1: because I don't know. I think I think your parents

1465
01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:10,160
Speaker 1: either had great taste and raised you properly, or you know,

1466
01:26:10,240 --> 01:26:12,320
Speaker 1: you were just sheltered as a child. You can look

1467
01:26:12,360 --> 01:26:15,599
Speaker 1: at it either way. But Nick Tortelli, do you get

1468
01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:17,519
Speaker 1: that reference when Chad wrote it?

1469
01:26:17,680 --> 01:26:21,320
Speaker 2: I'm picturing they get it, but maybe maybe that's just

1470
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:23,040
Speaker 2: he's already been mentioned.

1471
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:27,480
Speaker 1: Okay, cheers, cheers, Carlo's husband on Cheers.

1472
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:31,600
Speaker 2: The watch Cheers great svery week we watched.

1473
01:26:31,400 --> 01:26:33,679
Speaker 1: Check Well you were right, see it was in your brain,

1474
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:36,720
Speaker 1: it was it was back there in the subconscious. Okay,

1475
01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:39,479
Speaker 1: each into the film Spotting hat and pick out this

1476
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:40,120
Speaker 1: week's winner.

1477
01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:43,080
Speaker 2: Our winner is Matt Price from Pittsburgh.

1478
01:26:43,120 --> 01:26:44,160
Speaker 3: Congratulations Matt.

1479
01:26:44,200 --> 01:26:46,479
Speaker 1: Email feedback at Filmspotting dot net and we will set

1480
01:26:46,479 --> 01:26:48,599
Speaker 1: you up with your very own film Spotting t shirt,

1481
01:26:48,680 --> 01:26:53,160
Speaker 1: film Spotting tote, or trial membership to the film Spotting Family.

1482
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:58,080
Speaker 2: The sound goes through the cable to the box. A

1483
01:26:58,320 --> 01:27:01,960
Speaker 2: man records it on a bit recoed in wax, but

1484
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:04,520
Speaker 2: you have to talk into.

1485
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:05,480
Speaker 3: The mic first.

1486
01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:08,120
Speaker 2: In the bush.

1487
01:27:08,280 --> 01:27:11,000
Speaker 1: We move on now to this week's edition of Massacre

1488
01:27:11,120 --> 01:27:13,920
Speaker 1: Theater and Josh, we like to joke about all the

1489
01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:18,760
Speaker 1: preparation we put in to these little renditions that we do,

1490
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:22,960
Speaker 1: and this time you get to do even less than normal.

1491
01:27:23,439 --> 01:27:28,160
Speaker 2: Is that right? We have some technical difficulties, yes, a

1492
01:27:28,200 --> 01:27:31,679
Speaker 2: peak behind the curtain. Usually our preparation involves just before

1493
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:35,920
Speaker 2: performing Masacre Theater, watching the scene that Sam in most

1494
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:39,559
Speaker 2: cases has chosen for Mascar Theater. I'm as I've said

1495
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:42,640
Speaker 2: in Scotland, I normally don't have an issue with this,

1496
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:44,960
Speaker 2: but right now I'm being told that I can't watch

1497
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:47,240
Speaker 2: the scene because I'm in the wrong country. I'm a

1498
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:50,439
Speaker 2: certain streaming service. So I'm going and I'm going in

1499
01:27:50,479 --> 01:27:54,360
Speaker 2: pretty much blind. We do know there's one, let's just say,

1500
01:27:54,439 --> 01:27:58,880
Speaker 2: key performance to this scene, and because you've been able

1501
01:27:58,960 --> 01:28:02,479
Speaker 2: to watch it, it falls to you to carry the scene.

1502
01:28:02,600 --> 01:28:05,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to do my best in the secondary performance.

1503
01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:09,439
Speaker 1: And it is a secondary performance. There's definitely a straight

1504
01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:13,400
Speaker 1: man in this scene, and you're going to play that role,

1505
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:16,640
Speaker 1: and I am going to do my best.

1506
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:18,960
Speaker 3: With the other role.

1507
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:20,200
Speaker 2: Lord help you.

1508
01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 1: I guess I'm ready if you are. And I don't

1509
01:28:24,320 --> 01:28:25,839
Speaker 1: know what's going to come out of my mouth.

1510
01:28:25,760 --> 01:28:30,280
Speaker 2: Josh, hopefully at least the words on the script.

1511
01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:35,120
Speaker 3: Here we go and hopefully action. Did I do something wrong?

1512
01:28:36,280 --> 01:28:36,360
Speaker 2: No?

1513
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:38,600
Speaker 3: Then why'd you just go cold on me?

1514
01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:42,720
Speaker 2: I don't know what you mean? Would you see I

1515
01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:43,759
Speaker 2: didn't see anything?

1516
01:28:44,040 --> 01:28:44,599
Speaker 3: You're lying?

1517
01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:46,320
Speaker 2: No, I'm not.

1518
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:51,280
Speaker 3: Yes, you are, I know because I feel things very deeply.

1519
01:28:52,320 --> 01:28:55,000
Speaker 2: Look, I gotta get back to work, all right. I'll

1520
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:55,599
Speaker 2: see you later.

1521
01:28:56,080 --> 01:28:59,320
Speaker 3: When what When will I see you?

1522
01:29:00,840 --> 01:29:03,240
Speaker 2: I don't know. Ruby, It's just an expression.

1523
01:29:03,680 --> 01:29:05,759
Speaker 3: You're not going to take me to Europe? Are you

1524
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:07,920
Speaker 3: tell me the truth? What did I do wrong?

1525
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:12,960
Speaker 2: Nothing? Calm No, Why are you leaving me?

1526
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:15,320
Speaker 3: If I didn't do nothing wrong, I don't understand. I

1527
01:29:15,360 --> 01:29:16,240
Speaker 3: thought you liked me.

1528
01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:18,519
Speaker 2: I do like ya.

1529
01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:20,519
Speaker 3: I just tell me the truth.

1530
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:21,719
Speaker 2: Why are you leaving?

1531
01:29:21,960 --> 01:29:24,719
Speaker 3: Why are you leaving me? Would you see? Why'd you change?

1532
01:29:25,640 --> 01:29:33,439
Speaker 2: You're scaring me? Ruby and scene? Wow, I don't eat.

1533
01:29:33,439 --> 01:29:34,439
Speaker 3: That was intense enough.

1534
01:29:34,600 --> 01:29:39,880
Speaker 2: Fate was with us, Adam, the scene technical difficulties. It

1535
01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:43,080
Speaker 2: fell to you, and you gave one of your all

1536
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:46,640
Speaker 2: time uh huh Mascar theater performances. Congratulations.

1537
01:29:46,680 --> 01:29:49,040
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe maybe it's up there.

1538
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:52,240
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that people get to watch that too on

1539
01:29:52,280 --> 01:29:56,400
Speaker 1: the on the video, we did change. We did change

1540
01:29:56,400 --> 01:29:59,000
Speaker 1: the name to try to make it a little more difficult.

1541
01:29:59,160 --> 01:30:02,639
Speaker 1: So no, Ruby is not the character's name in the scene.

1542
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:06,960
Speaker 1: We look forward to reading all of the entries. Hopefully

1543
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:10,559
Speaker 1: we'll have a brimming hat. We think you can come

1544
01:30:10,640 --> 01:30:13,320
Speaker 1: up with the tie into this week's show. If you

1545
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:15,719
Speaker 1: know what film we just massacred, email the movie's title

1546
01:30:15,920 --> 01:30:18,400
Speaker 1: and your name and location to feedback at filmspotting dot net.

1547
01:30:18,479 --> 01:30:21,760
Speaker 1: The deadline is Monday, November seventeenth. We will select the

1548
01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:24,720
Speaker 1: winner randomly from all the correct entries and announce it

1549
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:25,759
Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks.

1550
01:30:26,479 --> 01:30:28,439
Speaker 2: I say, is Alan Ginsberg there?

1551
01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:30,200
Speaker 3: And he says who's calling?

1552
01:30:30,479 --> 01:30:33,400
Speaker 5: And I says, Peter Hoojar, I'm supposed to photograph here

1553
01:30:33,600 --> 01:30:39,280
Speaker 5: the Times.

1554
01:30:37,360 --> 01:30:41,440
Speaker 2: Peter Hoojar's Day is the latest from director Ira Sachs.

1555
01:30:41,600 --> 01:30:44,920
Speaker 2: He made twenty twenty three's Passages and twenty fourteen's Love

1556
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:48,679
Speaker 2: Is Strange. This is an adaptation of sorts. It's based

1557
01:30:48,720 --> 01:30:52,840
Speaker 2: on a nineteen seventy four audio taped interview between writer

1558
01:30:53,040 --> 01:30:57,600
Speaker 2: Linda rosen Krantz and photographer Peter Hujar. Rosen Krantz is

1559
01:30:57,640 --> 01:31:01,360
Speaker 2: played by Rebecca Hall in the movie Hoojar by Ben Wishaw.

1560
01:31:01,439 --> 01:31:04,760
Speaker 2: Those are two names, Adam, that I think makes both

1561
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:07,000
Speaker 2: of our ears perk up when we see they've been

1562
01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:10,840
Speaker 2: cast in a movie. So I'm assuming they make this

1563
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:16,519
Speaker 2: worth watching. Is there more to this than something that's

1564
01:31:16,840 --> 01:31:18,400
Speaker 2: centrally focused on the actors.

1565
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:21,040
Speaker 1: There's more, but there's certainly a big reason why you

1566
01:31:21,040 --> 01:31:24,599
Speaker 1: should see it. Calling it a two hander is a

1567
01:31:24,640 --> 01:31:27,840
Speaker 1: little bit of a misnomer because Hall's rosen Krantz is

1568
01:31:28,120 --> 01:31:32,400
Speaker 1: placed mostly into the role of listener, but very active

1569
01:31:32,439 --> 01:31:35,840
Speaker 1: listener who does sprinkle in questions. And I'll get into

1570
01:31:35,920 --> 01:31:39,240
Speaker 1: this more and more praise. I will have more praise

1571
01:31:39,320 --> 01:31:43,559
Speaker 1: for Hall and how her character is conceived. But I

1572
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:48,360
Speaker 1: will also note that Wishaw Hall's chemistry, but really who

1573
01:31:48,479 --> 01:31:53,400
Speaker 1: jar and rosen Krantz's chemistry is an essential element of

1574
01:31:53,439 --> 01:31:56,439
Speaker 1: the film. It is Wishaw, though, who carries the movie

1575
01:31:56,680 --> 01:32:00,360
Speaker 1: in terms of the dialogue and has such an interesting

1576
01:32:00,520 --> 01:32:04,960
Speaker 1: challenge because yes, it was audiotape conversations, but my understanding

1577
01:32:05,040 --> 01:32:09,840
Speaker 1: is that the audio tapes never actually surfaced. What was

1578
01:32:09,920 --> 01:32:15,800
Speaker 1: found were just transcripts of these conversations. So Wishaw and

1579
01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:21,240
Speaker 1: Sacks are recreating conversations just based on words on a page.

1580
01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:25,879
Speaker 1: So the level of naturalism that Wishaw has to convey

1581
01:32:26,640 --> 01:32:31,400
Speaker 1: is greater than your typical script, and he does it

1582
01:32:31,439 --> 01:32:33,840
Speaker 1: with such casual acuity.

1583
01:32:33,960 --> 01:32:35,120
Speaker 3: It really is.

1584
01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:38,200
Speaker 1: A wonderful performance. And you have to keep in mind

1585
01:32:38,200 --> 01:32:45,000
Speaker 1: that rosen Krantz's project was mundane by design. I equated

1586
01:32:45,080 --> 01:32:49,559
Speaker 1: to this. I teach a podcasting class most semesters, and

1587
01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:53,559
Speaker 1: the heart of the episode is having the students produce

1588
01:32:54,160 --> 01:32:57,400
Speaker 1: a pilot episode and they have to do an interview,

1589
01:32:57,560 --> 01:33:00,880
Speaker 1: and every semester never fails. I have one or two

1590
01:33:00,960 --> 01:33:06,000
Speaker 1: students who propose interviewing a student athlete, and the topic is,

1591
01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:08,519
Speaker 1: I want to talk to a student athlete about what

1592
01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:14,240
Speaker 1: their everyday routine is like. And when they're pitching those podcasts,

1593
01:33:14,520 --> 01:33:17,920
Speaker 1: I or when students are pitching, I always suggest to

1594
01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:21,200
Speaker 1: them that they have to know what their big question is.

1595
01:33:21,479 --> 01:33:26,439
Speaker 1: What's the underlying question that you're asking every guest. Imagine

1596
01:33:26,439 --> 01:33:29,200
Speaker 1: that you're doing this show for the next ten years,

1597
01:33:29,640 --> 01:33:33,040
Speaker 1: You're doing two hundred episodes, whatever it is every guest

1598
01:33:33,040 --> 01:33:34,960
Speaker 1: you'll ever have on the show. Whether you actually ever

1599
01:33:35,080 --> 01:33:39,080
Speaker 1: verbalize this question or not, it's the inexhaustible question that

1600
01:33:39,320 --> 01:33:40,400
Speaker 1: justifies your podcast.

1601
01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:41,719
Speaker 3: What is that big question?

1602
01:33:42,040 --> 01:33:44,160
Speaker 1: And the problem is, the first couple of times students

1603
01:33:44,200 --> 01:33:47,160
Speaker 1: did these interviews, as I feared, there wasn't really a

1604
01:33:47,160 --> 01:33:50,160
Speaker 1: big question to explore. The interviews were just like journal

1605
01:33:50,320 --> 01:33:53,800
Speaker 1: entries without any introspection. It was like I woke up

1606
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:57,760
Speaker 1: at six am, had breakfast, went to practice, I had

1607
01:33:57,840 --> 01:34:01,760
Speaker 1: class at eight thirty and so on, and that these

1608
01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:05,840
Speaker 1: athletes had lunch at Chipotle was just never compelling to

1609
01:34:05,880 --> 01:34:10,400
Speaker 1: me as a listener and rosen Krantz wants her subjects

1610
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:15,479
Speaker 1: to do exactly that, just reflect on, really just chronicle first,

1611
01:34:15,600 --> 01:34:18,880
Speaker 1: chronicle what they did that day and see where it

1612
01:34:18,920 --> 01:34:21,720
Speaker 1: takes them. So right away, as the movie's beginning and

1613
01:34:22,000 --> 01:34:26,200
Speaker 1: I begin to see that, I'm thinking, why, what's the

1614
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:30,600
Speaker 1: big question? What's the big question? Rosen Krantz wants to investigate?

1615
01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:34,040
Speaker 1: And by extension, then what is Sax investigating? Will one

1616
01:34:34,320 --> 01:34:39,600
Speaker 1: or more big questions emerge? And at one point the

1617
01:34:39,720 --> 01:34:45,960
Speaker 1: characters do Josh address it themselves When Hujar acknowledges that

1618
01:34:46,040 --> 01:34:50,160
Speaker 1: he shocked at how much he has talked about just

1619
01:34:50,800 --> 01:34:53,400
Speaker 1: the first few hours of his day since he woke up,

1620
01:34:53,880 --> 01:34:58,640
Speaker 1: he realizes that until he was actually forced to document it,

1621
01:34:59,320 --> 01:35:02,360
Speaker 1: he kind of just assumed that what he did every

1622
01:35:02,439 --> 01:35:06,360
Speaker 1: day was really innocuous and disposable, that nothing really happened.

1623
01:35:06,600 --> 01:35:09,559
Speaker 1: And he says, isn't that interesting? And she says it

1624
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:12,360
Speaker 1: really is. He says, because as soon as I started,

1625
01:35:12,439 --> 01:35:15,200
Speaker 1: it's like a whole novel already, and she says, that's

1626
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:18,440
Speaker 1: why I'm doing it. So it's almost like the aphorism,

1627
01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:21,800
Speaker 1: the unexamined life is not worth living. But what the

1628
01:35:21,880 --> 01:35:27,600
Speaker 1: movie proposes is it's more like life is worthy when examined.

1629
01:35:28,160 --> 01:35:31,000
Speaker 1: Is how I would sort of turn it around. And

1630
01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:36,479
Speaker 1: other interesting insights emerge. He talks about being disappointed with

1631
01:35:37,240 --> 01:35:40,439
Speaker 1: pictures he had taken that day of Alan Ginsberg for

1632
01:35:40,520 --> 01:35:43,400
Speaker 1: The New York Times. It's an assignment, a photoshoot, when

1633
01:35:43,439 --> 01:35:46,799
Speaker 1: he looked at them, and there's this meta layer because

1634
01:35:46,840 --> 01:35:49,720
Speaker 1: he discusses how that matches what the film is doing

1635
01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:53,720
Speaker 1: right where he talks about how you only see qualities

1636
01:35:53,960 --> 01:35:59,599
Speaker 1: in the photos, positive and negative. When the photo's actually

1637
01:35:59,600 --> 01:36:04,240
Speaker 1: printed and you're studying it, you see things then that

1638
01:36:04,320 --> 01:36:07,080
Speaker 1: you weren't aware of when you actually staged it and

1639
01:36:07,120 --> 01:36:12,040
Speaker 1: took the shot. And so then I started thinking about Rosenkrantz,

1640
01:36:12,280 --> 01:36:15,360
Speaker 1: and I started thinking about the way she's looking at him,

1641
01:36:15,800 --> 01:36:19,040
Speaker 1: and the way that she adores him, it seems, and

1642
01:36:19,439 --> 01:36:23,040
Speaker 1: the precision almost with which she's listening to him, and

1643
01:36:23,080 --> 01:36:25,840
Speaker 1: she does kind of become an equal to Ujar in

1644
01:36:25,880 --> 01:36:27,600
Speaker 1: terms of the way she fills the space and the

1645
01:36:27,600 --> 01:36:29,760
Speaker 1: way Sas has her fill the space even though she's

1646
01:36:29,800 --> 01:36:32,840
Speaker 1: not filling it with words, and the way sometimes there's

1647
01:36:32,880 --> 01:36:35,919
Speaker 1: a real tenderness between them and they will show affection

1648
01:36:36,240 --> 01:36:38,880
Speaker 1: for each other and they'll talk sometimes laying on a

1649
01:36:39,600 --> 01:36:43,080
Speaker 1: bed and have real intimacy with each other. And like

1650
01:36:43,120 --> 01:36:46,160
Speaker 1: with his pictures, he says at one point that he

1651
01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:50,040
Speaker 1: thinks women take better pictures than men do. And so

1652
01:36:50,120 --> 01:36:53,280
Speaker 1: then I'm thinking, is she getting better audio from him

1653
01:36:53,320 --> 01:36:58,120
Speaker 1: because she's a woman, or is it because they're already

1654
01:36:58,160 --> 01:37:01,080
Speaker 1: so comfortable with each other, or is it or is

1655
01:37:01,120 --> 01:37:03,639
Speaker 1: it both? So what you realize or what I realized

1656
01:37:03,680 --> 01:37:07,360
Speaker 1: any way watching it is that Peter Hujar's day doesn't

1657
01:37:07,400 --> 01:37:09,040
Speaker 1: ask big questions.

1658
01:37:09,280 --> 01:37:10,920
Speaker 3: It creates an.

1659
01:37:10,760 --> 01:37:17,040
Speaker 1: Ephemeral, meditative space that invites them. It turns the quiet

1660
01:37:17,080 --> 01:37:23,080
Speaker 1: observation into introspection, and it kind of reveals how meaning

1661
01:37:23,360 --> 01:37:27,600
Speaker 1: can emerge from memory and just paying attention to details

1662
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:31,880
Speaker 1: and also also art. I think I think it lies

1663
01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:36,479
Speaker 1: in Sachs's conception of this whole project as well, because

1664
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:42,519
Speaker 1: he makes you question everything that you're seeing. Sometimes Linda

1665
01:37:43,600 --> 01:37:47,800
Speaker 1: changes within a scene, Josh, It's really interesting, Like her

1666
01:37:47,920 --> 01:37:51,559
Speaker 1: costume will change within a conversation. Not only will they

1667
01:37:51,640 --> 01:37:56,880
Speaker 1: change positions, but her costume will change, her hair might change.

1668
01:37:56,680 --> 01:38:01,000
Speaker 1: The composition will go from something very naturalistic to something

1669
01:38:01,040 --> 01:38:05,479
Speaker 1: that is more artistically framed. The opening and the closing

1670
01:38:05,520 --> 01:38:09,040
Speaker 1: of the film draw attention to the mechanism of filming,

1671
01:38:09,800 --> 01:38:12,320
Speaker 1: like at the beginning, wish if I remember correctly, it's

1672
01:38:12,320 --> 01:38:15,080
Speaker 1: getting into an elevator. I think you see the sticks

1673
01:38:15,960 --> 01:38:19,240
Speaker 1: as if you know that filming on this project has begun.

1674
01:38:19,320 --> 01:38:22,759
Speaker 1: So it's asking these questions like how do we process

1675
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:24,559
Speaker 1: and create meaning out of our lives? How do we

1676
01:38:24,640 --> 01:38:27,080
Speaker 1: use art to create meaning? How do we use cameras?

1677
01:38:27,080 --> 01:38:30,439
Speaker 1: How do we use frames? That's the intersection of what

1678
01:38:30,680 --> 01:38:33,720
Speaker 1: Sax is doing and what Hujar was doing and what

1679
01:38:34,040 --> 01:38:39,280
Speaker 1: rosen Krantz was doing. So watching the film, I was

1680
01:38:39,360 --> 01:38:42,840
Speaker 1: left thinking about what I was Also here's the questions, right,

1681
01:38:42,920 --> 01:38:45,320
Speaker 1: I was thinking about what I tell my students, and

1682
01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:51,519
Speaker 1: either they're not Linda Rosenkrantz, or their interviewees aren't Peter Hujar,

1683
01:38:52,520 --> 01:38:56,400
Speaker 1: or athletes aren't as interesting as artists. Or maybe I'm

1684
01:38:56,520 --> 01:38:59,880
Speaker 1: just wrong and I should let my students engage in

1685
01:38:59,880 --> 01:39:01,040
Speaker 1: the process more often.

1686
01:39:01,120 --> 01:39:06,160
Speaker 2: Josh, well, we'll leave that to your teacher evaluations. Adam,

1687
01:39:06,520 --> 01:39:10,800
Speaker 2: I'm not going to answer that, but Peterhosar's Days sounds fascinating.

1688
01:39:10,840 --> 01:39:15,000
Speaker 2: A lot of layers at work. This one is currently

1689
01:39:15,120 --> 01:39:21,000
Speaker 2: playing in limited release and Adam. That means, after touching

1690
01:39:21,040 --> 01:39:25,559
Speaker 2: on for four movies, I think we are at the

1691
01:39:25,760 --> 01:39:29,920
Speaker 2: end of our show. If you'd like to connect with

1692
01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:32,920
Speaker 2: us on social media, you can find Adam and the

1693
01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:38,439
Speaker 2: show on Instagram, Facebook, letterboxed, YouTube. He's at film Spotting.

1694
01:39:38,640 --> 01:39:41,720
Speaker 2: I'm at all those places as well as Larsen on

1695
01:39:41,960 --> 01:39:46,880
Speaker 2: film Film Spotting is independently produced and listener supported. You

1696
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:49,400
Speaker 2: can support the show by joining the film Spotting Family

1697
01:39:49,400 --> 01:39:53,360
Speaker 2: at filmspottingfamily dot com. That way, you can listen early

1698
01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:56,519
Speaker 2: and ad free. You'll also get a weekly newsletter, monthly

1699
01:39:56,680 --> 01:40:01,320
Speaker 2: bonus episodes, and access to the entire show archive. For

1700
01:40:01,479 --> 01:40:04,719
Speaker 2: show t shirts and other merch go to film spotting

1701
01:40:04,760 --> 01:40:06,559
Speaker 2: dot net slash shop.

1702
01:40:06,920 --> 01:40:10,400
Speaker 1: In that film Spotting archive, you can find those seven

1703
01:40:10,960 --> 01:40:15,559
Speaker 1: Del Toro reviews that I referenced in R. Frankenstein Setup,

1704
01:40:15,840 --> 01:40:19,200
Speaker 1: Pinocchio episode nine oh one, Nightmare Alley eight fifty three,

1705
01:40:19,280 --> 01:40:23,000
Speaker 1: The Shape of Water six fifty nine, Crimson Peak five sixty.

1706
01:40:23,080 --> 01:40:27,280
Speaker 1: That's the one of the seven that you did solo, Josh,

1707
01:40:27,439 --> 01:40:29,280
Speaker 1: I still haven't seen it. One of my four blind

1708
01:40:29,280 --> 01:40:34,719
Speaker 1: spots Pacific Rim four fifty three, Hellboy two to eighteen,

1709
01:40:34,840 --> 01:40:38,760
Speaker 1: and Pan's Labyrinth one forty five. Hell Boy two is

1710
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:42,080
Speaker 1: funny because I had written my entire intro two or

1711
01:40:42,120 --> 01:40:45,360
Speaker 1: three days ago, and then I just saw this document

1712
01:40:45,400 --> 01:40:48,479
Speaker 1: the Sam put together with these notes in it earlier today,

1713
01:40:48,520 --> 01:40:51,160
Speaker 1: and I had to go and rewrite part of my

1714
01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:54,040
Speaker 1: intro because I thought I had five blind spots. I

1715
01:40:54,120 --> 01:40:56,639
Speaker 1: was sure I had five blind spots, and that Hellboy

1716
01:40:56,720 --> 01:40:59,760
Speaker 1: two had not been reviewed on the show. They're only

1717
01:40:59,760 --> 01:41:02,400
Speaker 1: six movies that had been reviewed on the show. And

1718
01:41:02,439 --> 01:41:05,720
Speaker 1: then I did a search of my Google files and

1719
01:41:06,280 --> 01:41:09,519
Speaker 1: guess what, I've seen hell Boy Too. We reviewed hell

1720
01:41:09,600 --> 01:41:13,320
Speaker 1: Boy too. I liked hell Boy Too. Sometimes you learn

1721
01:41:13,400 --> 01:41:14,840
Speaker 1: new things from your own show.

1722
01:41:15,400 --> 01:41:19,120
Speaker 2: It it didn't stick in your imagination though that much, huh.

1723
01:41:19,560 --> 01:41:19,960
Speaker 3: It did not?

1724
01:41:20,160 --> 01:41:23,479
Speaker 1: Apparently out wide, you can see Christy. You can also

1725
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:27,439
Speaker 1: see Lynn Ramsay's Die My Love, Russell Crowe as Hermann

1726
01:41:27,520 --> 01:41:30,160
Speaker 1: Goring in Nuremberg. We haven't talked about that. I don't

1727
01:41:30,200 --> 01:41:32,200
Speaker 1: know that we'll get to review it. I am curious.

1728
01:41:32,240 --> 01:41:34,000
Speaker 1: I want to see it. I'm a little bit curious

1729
01:41:34,000 --> 01:41:38,240
Speaker 1: about Dan Trachtenberg directing Predator bad Lands with el Fanning.

1730
01:41:38,560 --> 01:41:40,920
Speaker 1: But next week we do have other films that we

1731
01:41:40,960 --> 01:41:44,800
Speaker 1: are more curious about. Like Pogonia, Kelly Reichert's The Mastermind

1732
01:41:44,920 --> 01:41:49,320
Speaker 1: and Jafar Panahi's It Was Only an Accident. But Die

1733
01:41:49,360 --> 01:41:53,040
Speaker 1: My Love is also on the dockets, so hopefully four

1734
01:41:53,080 --> 01:41:55,040
Speaker 1: more movies to hear us discuss.

1735
01:41:55,320 --> 01:41:58,719
Speaker 2: Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Dessou and Sam

1736
01:41:58,800 --> 01:42:01,080
Speaker 2: Fan Halgrin. Without saying I'm a Golden Joe, this show

1737
01:42:01,120 --> 01:42:05,760
Speaker 2: wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Special thanks

1738
01:42:05,800 --> 01:42:09,880
Speaker 2: to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at

1739
01:42:09,960 --> 01:42:14,480
Speaker 2: wbez dot org. For film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson.

1740
01:42:14,200 --> 01:42:17,840
Speaker 3: And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening. This conversation can

1741
01:42:17,920 --> 01:42:19,560
Speaker 3: serve no purpose anymore.

1742
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:40,040
Speaker 1: Then film Spotting is listeners supported. Join the film Spotting

1743
01:42:40,080 --> 01:42:43,000
Speaker 1: Family at film spottingfamily dot com and get access to

1744
01:42:43,120 --> 01:42:46,680
Speaker 1: ad free episodes, monthly bonus shows, our weekly newsletter, and,

1745
01:42:46,720 --> 01:42:49,040
Speaker 1: for the first time, all in one place, the entire

1746
01:42:49,280 --> 01:42:51,720
Speaker 1: film Spotting archive going back to two thousand and five.

1747
01:42:52,040 --> 01:42:56,920
Speaker 1: That's a film Spotting Family dot com.

1748
01:42:56,920 --> 01:42:57,440
Speaker 5: Panically