Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
Speaker 2: And this is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you
Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
Speaker 1: in their lives.
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1: This week, a single woman deals with shame about getting
Speaker 1: a late start in dating and sex.
Speaker 3: I guess I'm afraid to get into a relationship in
Speaker 3: a sense because then people ask you about your history,
Speaker 3: and it's embarrassing one to be fifty three and single.
Speaker 3: You know, when you mentioned that to people, that are
Speaker 3: always like shocked, And I've had people say, oh gosh,
Speaker 3: what's wrong with you?
Speaker 2: First. A quick note therapist is going national purposes only,
Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not
Speaker 2: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always
Speaker 2: seek the advice of your physician mental health professional or
Speaker 2: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have
Speaker 2: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
Speaker 2: or in full, and we may edit it for length
Speaker 2: and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have
Speaker 2: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Speaker 1: Hey guy, Hi Laurie. So I think we have a
Speaker 1: really interesting letter today. It goes like this, Dear therapists.
Speaker 1: I'm fifty three years old and I have never been
Speaker 1: married and have no children. I didn't have a boyfriend
Speaker 1: until I was thirty two and lost my virginity with
Speaker 1: him when I was thirty two. We dated for four years.
Speaker 1: It was not a good relationship. Since then, I've had
Speaker 1: a few relationships, but nothing lasting. I feel a lot
Speaker 1: of shame and embarrassment over this, so much so that
Speaker 1: I think I avoid dating. I don't have to share
Speaker 1: this with anyone. I even feel embarrassed putting it and
Speaker 1: writing to you. It actually makes me WinCE and I
Speaker 1: feel like such a loser. Admitting that I didn't have
Speaker 1: a boyfriend until I was thirty two and was a
Speaker 1: virgin until then too. It just makes me want to
Speaker 1: run and hide. I feel like it's a dirty secret
Speaker 1: I carry around with me. I'm very lonely and feel
Speaker 1: this shame or secret is holding me back from entering
Speaker 1: into the loving adult intimate relationship. I crave Can you
Speaker 1: help me get over or work through this shame? I
Speaker 1: feel thank you, Lauren.
Speaker 2: Well, I feel really bad for Lauren, just because shame
Speaker 2: is such a toxic feeling. Shame means that we feel
Speaker 2: really bad about who we are as a person. You know,
Speaker 2: guilt is about an action, Shame is about who you are.
Speaker 2: And so to feel so bad fundamentally about who she
Speaker 2: is for decades, I'm glad, she wrote, And I really
Speaker 2: hope you can help them.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad, she wrote too, because shame prevents people
Speaker 1: from getting the things that they want in life. What
Speaker 1: it does is it makes them hide. They feel like
Speaker 1: they can't show the truth of who they are to anybody,
Speaker 1: that they are fundamentally unlovable. And so I think what
Speaker 1: she's got here is not just an issue around she
Speaker 1: didn't have sex until she was thirty two, and that's
Speaker 1: her big secret, But it's also this question of she
Speaker 1: didn't have love and what the shame does is it
Speaker 1: prevents her from finding the love that she wants, and.
Speaker 2: It's prevented her from doing that. Interestingly, even after she
Speaker 2: had sex and had a relationship, it didn't free her
Speaker 2: up enough. That shame was so deep that it continued
Speaker 2: even after. So I would really be interested in finding
Speaker 2: out why what happened that the shame is so deep.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go talk to her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're listening to deotherapists from iHeartRadio.
Speaker 4: We'll be back after a quick break. Gottlieb and I'm
Speaker 4: Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist.
Speaker 5: So Hi Lauren, Hi Laurie.
Speaker 2: Great to have you on the show.
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: So we would like to hear a little bit more
Speaker 2: of these feelings that you've had about not dating until
Speaker 2: a later age, or about being a virgin until a
Speaker 2: later age. Can you tell us a little bit of
Speaker 2: the dating history.
Speaker 3: I dated a little in my twenties, not very much.
Speaker 3: I think I dated more, but just very casual.
Speaker 5: Never a boyfriend.
Speaker 3: When I was in Spain, I studied abroad, maybe I
Speaker 3: think I started dating more. I probably felt more free
Speaker 3: there and I dated, but I never got involved with
Speaker 3: anyone seriously, just kissed and made out really nothing more
Speaker 3: than that. Then I dated like a few people, and
Speaker 3: then when I was thirty two, I met this guy
Speaker 3: and we started dating.
Speaker 5: And he was the first one that I had sex with, and.
Speaker 3: My first like real boyfriend, maybe second real boyfriend.
Speaker 2: Okay, who's the maybe first real boyfriend?
Speaker 5: A guy that I met through work.
Speaker 3: I think he was probably a little bit more into
Speaker 3: me than I wasn't to him, but because of his
Speaker 3: religious differences, he didn't want to continue dating me because
Speaker 3: it was a matter of a matter of like my
Speaker 3: converting to his way of thinking to religions.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering about this person that you met when you
Speaker 1: were thirty two. So you said you dated a little
Speaker 1: bit in Spain, and then you dated some other people,
Speaker 1: nothing really much went anywhere. What was it about this
Speaker 1: person that made you think I want to be in
Speaker 1: a relationship with him and I want to have sex
Speaker 1: with him.
Speaker 3: Well, I guess what or not I wanted to be
Speaker 3: in a relationship with him. I think maybe in part
Speaker 3: I was kind of desperate at that point, and he
Speaker 3: seemed like a decent guy, and we to do a
Speaker 3: lot of the same things. And as far as the sex,
Speaker 3: I made him wait for a while.
Speaker 2: Why I don't know.
Speaker 5: I guess some a friend of.
Speaker 3: Mine said, you can't quite trust him, and I don't know.
Speaker 3: I guess I just put it off. I don't really
Speaker 3: know that I was scared. I don't think I was scared. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm not really sure. I guess that's I think.
Speaker 5: I just maybe it was a matter of trust with
Speaker 5: him that I made him wait.
Speaker 1: You said you were desperate. You used that word. Do
Speaker 1: you mean desperate to be in a relationship or desperate
Speaker 1: to lose your virginity? What do you mean by that?
Speaker 5: Probably both. I really wanted a boyfriend.
Speaker 3: And obviously I really wanted to have sex too, And
Speaker 3: I think, you know, he came at a time and
Speaker 3: I was like, wow, you know, I maybe I felt
Speaker 3: it's been a while now, but maybe I felt like
Speaker 3: it was now or never, and that he seemed like
Speaker 3: an okay guy. And also, in thinking back, I wonder if,
Speaker 3: like I felt that he wasn't going.
Speaker 5: To demand a lot of me emotionally.
Speaker 3: So maybe I kind of felt safe with him in
Speaker 3: a sense.
Speaker 5: Although I did tell.
Speaker 3: Him that he was my first boyfriend and that I
Speaker 3: was a virgin until that point.
Speaker 1: How did he react to that information he shared with him.
Speaker 3: I think he was a little surprised, but he didn't
Speaker 3: really say, oh my god, why nothing. I don't really
Speaker 3: think he had much of a reaction other than that
Speaker 3: you said.
Speaker 2: That you thought he wouldn't demand too much of you emotionally.
Speaker 2: What do you mean when.
Speaker 5: Laurie asked what was his reaction? I really didn't think.
Speaker 3: He would say, really, Lauren, why, Like why haven't you
Speaker 3: been involved in relationships until now?
Speaker 5: Like what's going on? So I think that he's not going.
Speaker 3: To dig any deeper into reasons why where I think
Speaker 3: somebody else might have, you know, maybe questioned me on it.
Speaker 1: So he was safe because you knew that he would
Speaker 1: collude with you in not having to talk about something
Speaker 1: that felt very shameful to you.
Speaker 5: I think.
Speaker 2: So I'm glave to hear a little bit about how
Speaker 2: you were raised, Like what were the values around sex
Speaker 2: and dating in your household when you were growing up
Speaker 2: or a teenager? What was the messaging around sex and
Speaker 2: especially you know, women and sex.
Speaker 3: So well, I'll start off by saying, my dad died
Speaker 3: when I was nine, and my mom never dated anyone
Speaker 3: after that.
Speaker 5: I think one of the reasons.
Speaker 3: My mom never dated anybody after that is because she
Speaker 3: was overweight and I think she was really ashamed of.
Speaker 5: That and just felt overwhelmed by it.
Speaker 3: And she had five kids that she was left to
Speaker 3: raise on her own, and you know, I just think
Speaker 3: she looked at that is that this is what I'm
Speaker 3: going to do, and never bothered to date.
Speaker 5: And my mom as far as dating and sex, I
Speaker 5: think was almost like my mom did not want me
Speaker 5: to date. I will say that I think because I'm
Speaker 5: the baby. I was the baby of the family.
Speaker 3: And my other two sisters they dated, they had boyfriends young.
Speaker 5: My one sister got married when she was eighteen. But
Speaker 5: with me, it was kind of.
Speaker 3: Like a different story that she did not want me
Speaker 3: to have boyfriends. She really didn't want me to have
Speaker 3: a lot of friends either, but she definitely did not
Speaker 3: want me to date.
Speaker 5: And as far as sex, she really never said anything
Speaker 5: about sex.
Speaker 3: She was kind of embarrassed of in talking about it
Speaker 3: with me when I would ask her stuff. But I
Speaker 3: never got the idea of like, oh, sex was dirty,
Speaker 3: nothing like that.
Speaker 5: She just didn't talk about it. She didn't think it
Speaker 5: was appropriate What was.
Speaker 2: Your understanding of the different standards she had for you,
Speaker 2: like you shouldn't date or even have that many friends,
Speaker 2: versus your sisters were clearly dating if they were getting
Speaker 2: married so young.
Speaker 5: I didn't understand it, especially when I was going through
Speaker 5: it was really young.
Speaker 3: It just seemed very unfair to me. She did not
Speaker 3: want me to go out and socialize. There was a
Speaker 3: dance in junior high that I really worked hard on,
Speaker 3: and I it was expected to be there by my teacher,
Speaker 3: and my mother would not let me go.
Speaker 1: Did your mom tell you when you said, you know,
Speaker 1: I worked on this and I'm expected to be there.
Speaker 1: What was your mom's explanation for why she didn't want
Speaker 1: you to go?
Speaker 3: I cannot remember. I just know she said no, I
Speaker 3: just wasn't going to go. I don't really think she
Speaker 3: gave much of an explanation, because I know I pestered
Speaker 3: her heir as to why. You know, she used to
Speaker 3: say because I said so a lot. So I'm guessing
Speaker 3: she probably said something like that.
Speaker 2: You're saying she didn't want me to have that many
Speaker 2: friends either. What was the reason for that?
Speaker 3: I think, you know, as an adult now and looking back,
Speaker 3: I think that took away.
Speaker 5: My time from her. I think she kind of like
Speaker 5: used me as like almost like a companion in a sense.
Speaker 3: When one of my uncles actually commented that, like when
Speaker 3: I moved out.
Speaker 2: Finally, finally in being what age.
Speaker 3: Thirty, Yeah, she didn't have anybody and I wanted to
Speaker 3: help take care of her, but I decided to move out.
Speaker 2: So how much do you think it might be related
Speaker 2: the fact that she was giving you these messages from
Speaker 2: a very young age. Look, your dad's not around, it's
Speaker 2: just me. I'm sacrificing everything for you five kids because
Speaker 2: I'm not dating anymore. I'm just raising you and you,
Speaker 2: Lauren the youngest, you should at least stay around and
Speaker 2: keep me company as a thank you or take care
Speaker 2: of me a little bit. How much do you think
Speaker 2: that played in to your feelings in your teens and
Speaker 2: twenties about the fact that if you date and have sex,
Speaker 2: it will take you away and you'll be betraying your
Speaker 2: mom's wishes.
Speaker 5: Really, I'm not sure.
Speaker 3: I mean, my mom never came out and said, you
Speaker 3: know you owe me this, or you know you.
Speaker 5: Need to stay at home.
Speaker 2: No, have you felt it that?
Speaker 5: Yeah? I did feel it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I'm sure it played a role. Another
Speaker 3: thing that came into play was my sister, who's two
Speaker 3: years older than me. She's very pretty, and cousins and
Speaker 3: aunts and people at school and people that knew us
Speaker 3: would always say, my gosh, your sister is so much
Speaker 3: prettier than you. It must be really hard to have
Speaker 3: for you to have a sister that's so much prettier
Speaker 3: than you.
Speaker 5: So I heard that a.
Speaker 3: Lot, and people wanting to fix her up with people
Speaker 3: and not me. So I just kind of got this
Speaker 3: message that, geez, I just there's something wrong with me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we can hear that in your letter, that there's
Speaker 1: a sense of feeling like you're unlovable. And what you're
Speaker 1: describing are two things. One is you're describing what we
Speaker 1: call a parentified child. So often this happens when a
Speaker 1: parent dies and one of the children is expected to
Speaker 1: sort of fulfill that role somehow for the remaining parent.
Speaker 1: Your mom didn't date, so she didn't have companionship, but
Speaker 1: she had you. She didn't want you to socialize, she
Speaker 1: didn't want you to have friends. She didn't want you
Speaker 1: to leave her in whatever way that might have been,
Speaker 1: and in fact, you stayed there until you were thirty.
Speaker 1: Even if she didn't say I need you to do this,
Speaker 1: you felt her need. You worried about her loneliness, You
Speaker 1: worried about the fact that she didn't have anybody, but
Speaker 1: you weren't focused on the fact that you were lonely
Speaker 1: and you didn't have anybody. And then you got this
Speaker 1: other message, Well, your sister's so pretty, and so it's
Speaker 1: sort of like a perfect storm where it makes sense
Speaker 1: that you would have all kinds of confusion around your desires,
Speaker 1: your need, and your love ability all at the same time.
Speaker 1: And that's where shame comes in. It sounds like you
Speaker 1: have so much shame around who you are, what your
Speaker 1: past is. And what struck me so much was when
Speaker 1: I asked you, why did you pick that person at
Speaker 1: thirty two, and you describe yourself as well, I was desperate,
Speaker 1: I wasn't really sure I trusted him, I wasn't really
Speaker 1: sure I liked him that much. That you were sort
Speaker 1: of just going for whoever would take you, as opposed
Speaker 1: to going for who you truly wanted to be with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're right, and I think I've done
Speaker 3: that with almost everybody else that I've dated since then.
Speaker 1: What made you move out at thirty? What happened at
Speaker 1: that point?
Speaker 3: There wasn't like some kind of defining event or anything.
Speaker 5: It was just this is it. I have to move
Speaker 5: out on my own.
Speaker 3: If I ever want to have any kind of adult
Speaker 3: life or adult relationship, I have to separate myself from
Speaker 3: my mom because she's not doing me any favors.
Speaker 1: How did your mom react when you told her that
Speaker 1: you made the decision to move out.
Speaker 3: She was really pissed off for a few days, and
Speaker 3: I think the day that I moved on the next station,
Speaker 3: she was fine fine. I think maybe my uncle talked
Speaker 3: to her and said, you know, look, she deserves to
Speaker 3: be on her own. And he's the one who had
Speaker 3: commented before that you know she sees you as a
Speaker 3: companion because she doesn't have anybody.
Speaker 2: Lauren, when you say that you stayed with her till
Speaker 2: you were thirty, and that doing that really cost you
Speaker 2: in terms of your own independence, your ability to pursue
Speaker 2: in your own life and certainly your own relationships, and
Speaker 2: that at thirty you finally say to Hi, I need
Speaker 2: to move on with my own life and her response
Speaker 2: is to get pissed off. What that tells me is that,
Speaker 2: even if she didn't verbilize this to you directly, the
Speaker 2: edict of your role, Lauren is to be here with
Speaker 2: me and keep me company and be my companion and
Speaker 2: to prioritize my needs over yours. And I think that
Speaker 2: that edict is something that you took in so strongly
Speaker 2: that it really delayed your ability to start life until
Speaker 2: you were thirty years old instead of starting into taiteen
Speaker 2: or before or twenty or something like that. So there
Speaker 2: was a huge delay there. And what's interesting or unfortunate
Speaker 2: rather is that to me and I think to Laurie,
Speaker 2: that's so clear that you were staying out of loyalty,
Speaker 2: out of love for your mum. But what registered for
Speaker 2: you at the time was that you were staying because
Speaker 2: you're unlovable and because you know, you're not as pretty
Speaker 2: as your sister, and so you're going to have a
Speaker 2: hard time finding someone to love you and to want
Speaker 2: to have sex with you. That's what really got engraved
Speaker 2: almost into your own head, and not I'm staying out
Speaker 2: of loyalty. I'm staying for all these noble reasons in
Speaker 2: your head got interpreted into him staying because of shameful ones.
Speaker 5: If you're asking if that's correct.
Speaker 3: I think it probably probably is, although I didn't realize
Speaker 3: it at the time, And yeah, I must have been
Speaker 3: scared or like you said, probably ashamed.
Speaker 5: But also I was afraid of her reaction. It's like,
Speaker 5: oh my gosh, she's going to flip out.
Speaker 1: Why were you so afraid of her reaction? You were
Speaker 1: afraid that what would happen if she got upset with you.
Speaker 3: I guess that she wouldn't talk to me for maybe
Speaker 3: a week or so, not that she had ever done
Speaker 3: that before. My mom wasn't want to give the silent
Speaker 3: treatment or anything. I was afraid that she would get
Speaker 3: mad at me. And also my mom was like bad off,
Speaker 3: like physically, she had a lot of trouble getting around,
Speaker 3: so she depended on me to help her.
Speaker 5: So even after I moved out, like I would go
Speaker 5: over and fix.
Speaker 3: Dinner all the time for and she never once after
Speaker 3: that said anything about me moving out.
Speaker 2: How did she feel about you having the boyfriend?
Speaker 5: She liked him?
Speaker 3: Okay, when we first started dating, she get mad. She
Speaker 3: made comments to my sister that I might will just
Speaker 3: go ahead and marry this guy because I'm just spending
Speaker 3: all my time with him, and I assume she thought
Speaker 3: I was having sex, or assumed I was.
Speaker 5: She didn't like it.
Speaker 2: She didn't like that you were having sex in your thirties.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, she didn't think it was appropriate because I
Speaker 3: wasn't married. And this came up with another guy after that,
Speaker 3: to which I responded, well, do you want me to
Speaker 3: be a virgin until I die?
Speaker 5: You know, like what if I never get married?
Speaker 1: And her response to that was.
Speaker 3: Yes, please, Okay, you know, it's just something like you know.
Speaker 1: The first thing that you said, though, was she commented, well,
Speaker 1: you're just spending all your time with him. She is
Speaker 1: very upset when you don't spend time with her, and
Speaker 1: you're kind of saying, well, no, she wouldn't do that. No,
Speaker 1: She's not a person who gets upset about these things.
Speaker 1: She is incredibly upset about any bid for independence that
Speaker 1: you make. And I'm wondering when you went to Spain,
Speaker 1: and I think it was in your twenties and that's
Speaker 1: when you started dating. What was her reaction to that.
Speaker 3: Well, she did not want me to go and to
Speaker 3: study abroad. As you can probably guess, we're shocked, shocked,
Speaker 3: but I was set on it. I'm like, I'm going,
Speaker 3: you know, too bad. So my aunt was like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is a great thing. You know, I'm really happy.
Speaker 3: You should be happy. Once it was determined that I
Speaker 3: was going, but she was very upset. She was crying.
Speaker 1: When you described that time in Spain earlier, you said,
Speaker 1: you know, you were in Spain, you started dating, you
Speaker 1: kiss some guys, and then you said, but it never
Speaker 1: went anywhere. I wonder if part of the reason it
Speaker 1: didn't go anywhere is because there you are in Spain
Speaker 1: and there's a part of you that says, I really
Speaker 1: want this, I need this. I am an adult and
Speaker 1: I am in my twenties and this is something I
Speaker 1: really enjoy. And there's another part of you that said,
Speaker 1: but you're betraying your mother. And I have a feeling
Speaker 1: that that's why nothing ever went anywhere. That the minute
Speaker 1: you started to experience joy, you also experienced guilt, and
Speaker 1: that the guilt won every single time, so you never
Speaker 1: got to see would this go anywhere? Do I want
Speaker 1: to be with this person? There was this voice of
Speaker 1: your mother and this thought about her being so upset
Speaker 1: with you and somehow betraying her, leaving her, abandoning her,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't until you actually moved out that you
Speaker 1: were able to say, I want to have a boyfriend.
Speaker 1: I'm going to go forward with this.
Speaker 3: I'm sure that you're right. I think it probably did
Speaker 3: have something to do with it.
Speaker 5: And also one of the things.
Speaker 3: I will say is I just felt very ashamed of
Speaker 3: like my body, like I have a complex with my
Speaker 3: legs being big. So maybe that and then the guilt too.
Speaker 3: I never thought or the fear of the reaction of
Speaker 3: my mom, of my mom's reaction.
Speaker 1: You know what, Lauren, It's so much easier to acknowledge
Speaker 1: the feelings of I'm not good enough, my legs are
Speaker 1: too big, than to go to the other place, which
Speaker 1: is I'm really hurting my mother.
Speaker 5: Oh, I never thought about that, Laurie.
Speaker 2: To Laurie and I, this seems very very clear how
Speaker 2: powerful the messaging of your mom was. Oh but really,
Speaker 2: from the age of ten on to you, your role
Speaker 2: is to be her companion, is to be there. That
Speaker 2: messaging was so clear to.
Speaker 3: You, and I knew it had something to do with
Speaker 3: my mom making me feel guilty, whether intentionally or not,
Speaker 3: but never so deeply that I, you know, I thought
Speaker 3: it was a lot of just self shame.
Speaker 5: So this is giving me a lot to think about.
Speaker 1: I'm curious about the relationship that lasted four years. Four
Speaker 1: years is a good chunk of time. What happened there
Speaker 1: that the relationship didn't work out?
Speaker 5: We argued a lot.
Speaker 3: He lied just about little stupid things, and that would
Speaker 3: just it would make me insane, you know, like silly
Speaker 3: stuff like oh I didn't put the tomato and the refrigerator, like, well,
Speaker 3: there was no one else here, of course you did,
Speaker 3: you like things like that would just drive me up
Speaker 3: a wall. So and then he lied about bigger things too,
Speaker 3: and he wasn't that smart.
Speaker 1: So at what point did you realize you actually did
Speaker 1: not want to be with him? It sounds like pretty
Speaker 1: early on.
Speaker 5: Pretty early on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember, like you like, when I was alone,
Speaker 3: we'd be like God, you like, give me a sign,
Speaker 3: you like, should I be with him?
Speaker 5: Or shouldn't?
Speaker 3: And now I look back and say, well, if you're
Speaker 3: asking God all the time, then there's your.
Speaker 5: Sign, you know.
Speaker 3: You know, if there's that much doubt, then it's not
Speaker 3: the right relationship for you.
Speaker 1: And you stayed because you felt like this is the
Speaker 1: best I can get.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, when you.
Speaker 1: Had sex with him. That was your first time. What
Speaker 1: was that experience like for you?
Speaker 2: It was good.
Speaker 3: I really enjoyed it, like I always enjoyed having sex
Speaker 3: with him. After the next guy that I had sex with,
Speaker 3: I realized that I was really just having sex with
Speaker 3: the first boyfriend and the next one it was you know,
Speaker 3: it was really good. It was making love then having
Speaker 3: sex at the same time. It was more emotional with
Speaker 3: the second person.
Speaker 1: Did some of the shame go away? Meaning you stopped
Speaker 1: worrying about how somebody was going to see your body?
Speaker 3: I mean I still felt a little embarrassed, but not
Speaker 3: to the point where I wasn't not going to not
Speaker 3: have sex.
Speaker 1: What happened to the guy that you felt emotionally connected to.
Speaker 5: I think I did something really stupid.
Speaker 3: We'd been dating a few weeks, and before I met him,
Speaker 3: a girl that I worked with wanted to set me
Speaker 3: up with a friend of hers.
Speaker 5: So it took a few weeks to get that rolling.
Speaker 3: So I had been dating this guy who I really liked,
Speaker 3: I would say, blake fell in love with him.
Speaker 5: I think he had something to do that weekend or something.
Speaker 3: I went out with the guy who the girl that
Speaker 3: I worked with set me up on and I told
Speaker 3: him about it, and I probably shouldn't have and I
Speaker 3: think it probably hurt him. And we hung out once
Speaker 3: or twice after that, but it was very clear that
Speaker 3: you was not going to date me after that.
Speaker 2: These days, are you on any dating apps? Are you
Speaker 2: open to dating? Where are you at these days in
Speaker 2: terms of that?
Speaker 5: Well, I'm open dating.
Speaker 3: I am on Tender right now, but I don't think
Speaker 3: it's the best website. It's a lot of people just
Speaker 3: looking for sex. And I've talked to a few people,
Speaker 3: but with these dating websites, you'll talk a few times
Speaker 3: and then the conversation ends, so I haven't been too
Speaker 3: serious about it.
Speaker 2: Do you feel you holding back from really giving this
Speaker 2: a go?
Speaker 5: Maybe maybe I could be. I guess I'm afraid to.
Speaker 3: Get into a relationship in a sense because then people
Speaker 3: ask you, like about your history, and it's embarrassing one
Speaker 3: to be fifty three and single. I know children, and
Speaker 3: you know when you mentioned that to people, male or female,
Speaker 3: they're always like shocked. And I've had people say, oh gosh,
Speaker 3: what's wrong with you? This man said this to me
Speaker 3: this one day and I started to tear up and
Speaker 3: I walked away, and he came back a few weeks
Speaker 3: later and you know apologized, you know, said he was sorry.
Speaker 5: And then another man just said, well, you must be
Speaker 5: a real pain in the ass if you're still single.
Speaker 1: That's a little bit like the people who said to you, Oh,
Speaker 1: your sister's so pretty, how do you feel in her shadow?
Speaker 1: It's really unfortunate that those things were said to you.
Speaker 1: And when I think about when you say, well, I'm
Speaker 1: just on Tinder, which is sort of a more of
Speaker 1: a hookup site. Sure people find relationships on it, but
Speaker 1: as guys, that it doesn't sound like you're trying that hard,
Speaker 1: and that when you did find that guy that you
Speaker 1: say you were falling in love with, you went on
Speaker 1: that other date anyway and then told him about it,
Speaker 1: knowing that it probably wouldn't go over well. So there's
Speaker 1: this element of even though you want this very badly,
Speaker 1: you find ways to sabotage it. And I think that
Speaker 1: if you and your mom are both lonely, you have
Speaker 1: that in common, that there's a connection between you. Even
Speaker 1: if you're living separately, you're both these women who are
Speaker 1: lonely and unpartnered. But if you become less lonely, then
Speaker 1: she really is alone in her loneliness.
Speaker 5: So, Laurie, Actually, my mom passed away like ten years.
Speaker 1: Ago, okay, but I think that there might have been
Speaker 1: a time and maybe even you're still carrying this around
Speaker 1: that there's still some sort of betrayal of her. If
Speaker 1: you become less lonely, you lose that connection with her.
Speaker 1: But that was something the two of you both had together,
Speaker 1: was that loneliness. Nobody talked about it, but it was there.
Speaker 1: You didn't have a parent who said, I really want
Speaker 1: you to find connection. I really want you to have
Speaker 1: a full life. I want you to have friends and
Speaker 1: family and relationships and all of those things that you desire.
Speaker 1: Sounded like your mother was really not supportive of you
Speaker 1: branching out and having a social life. Who are your
Speaker 1: friends now, in terms of do you have close friends?
Speaker 1: Do you have friends who know your quote unquote secret?
Speaker 1: Do you have friends who you talk to about wanting
Speaker 1: to find a partner? Do your friends who really know you?
Speaker 5: I have two good friends.
Speaker 3: I have more friends than that, but two, I guess
Speaker 3: pretty close friends as far as I'm knowing my secret,
Speaker 3: not completely.
Speaker 5: No, they don't know.
Speaker 3: Like I didn't date until I was very old, and
Speaker 3: that I didn't lose my virginity until I was old.
Speaker 3: I've just kind of like, oh, yeah, I was older
Speaker 3: when I lost it, and no one's pressed me.
Speaker 2: I do want to point out, Lauren, that this very
Speaker 2: strong link in your head between if I only lost
Speaker 2: my virginity at thirty two, it's a shameful thing. Period.
Speaker 2: They're no extenuating circumstances is in your head, but you have.
Speaker 2: I grew up in a household in which the messaging
Speaker 2: I got was that sex was not something you did
Speaker 2: before you got married, and I really internalized that strongly.
Speaker 2: And my mom had some health issues and she needed
Speaker 2: a lot of assistance and companionship, and so I stayed
Speaker 2: with her until I was thirty out of loyalty and
Speaker 2: the really desired to care for her because she was
Speaker 2: really in need. Both of those stories are a true
Speaker 2: and be paint you in a very positive light relationship wise. Right,
Speaker 2: This is somebody who's loyal, This is somebody who's kind,
Speaker 2: this is somebody who's compassionate. And those stories are truer
Speaker 2: than the one you've had in your head all these
Speaker 2: years of there was something wrong with me. I wasn't lovable, enough,
Speaker 2: or I wasn't as pretty as my sister, and therefore
Speaker 2: that's why I wasn't dating, because that wasn't the issue.
Speaker 2: And I think that you really need to think strongly
Speaker 2: about changing the story in your head to one that's
Speaker 2: more accurate and that's much less self damaging and self
Speaker 2: flagellating and self demeaning, and there is no shame in
Speaker 2: the real story.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're right. I think if I keep
Speaker 3: telling myself I'm not good enough or pretty or pretty enough,
Speaker 3: that I'm just going to keep living my life based
Speaker 3: on those thoughts. Some things that you guys were saying today,
Speaker 3: I really never really really considered.
Speaker 5: Them very much.
Speaker 3: I didn't really relate it so much to my mom
Speaker 3: as strongly as you guys think that it is related
Speaker 3: to her.
Speaker 5: In our relationship, we've.
Speaker 1: Talked a lot about your mom. I'm curious to know
Speaker 1: what you remember about your dad. You said you were
Speaker 1: nine when he died. What was your relationship like with
Speaker 1: your dad, and what do you remember about him?
Speaker 5: It wasn't like a real close relationship.
Speaker 3: One thing I remember is my dad was angry a lot,
Speaker 3: and my mom and dad argued a lot. Then when
Speaker 3: I was when I was seven, they went to see
Speaker 3: a marriage counselor.
Speaker 1: And how do you know that?
Speaker 5: I think maybe my grandmom told me.
Speaker 3: I'm not really sure because my mom really my mom
Speaker 3: did not talk about this kind of stuff, but I
Speaker 3: know that's what they did because I remember one time.
Speaker 5: I think as kids, we waited in the car for them.
Speaker 3: So I guess maybe one of my brothers or sisters
Speaker 3: said it was like some kind of counseling or something.
Speaker 3: So after they went to counseling, their relationship was so
Speaker 3: much better, Like they held hands, they told each other
Speaker 3: they loved the other in front of us, and they
Speaker 3: went out on dates and we started doing more things
Speaker 3: as a family. So then I didn't think of my
Speaker 3: dad as being so angry. But that didn't last very
Speaker 3: long because then he got sick.
Speaker 1: So your mom must have been especially devastated that they
Speaker 1: had just gotten their marriage on track. They were much closer,
Speaker 1: and then your dad got sick.
Speaker 3: I'm sure she was devastated, But my mom just really
Speaker 3: didn't talk about her feelings, you know, never talked about
Speaker 3: missing him. My mom was really closed emotionally.
Speaker 1: How did your family handle it when he died?
Speaker 5: We were all really devastated.
Speaker 3: We were all very upset, and I was very scared
Speaker 3: for years, Like as a teenager, I was just so
Speaker 3: scared that my mom or grandmam was going to die
Speaker 3: because my grandmother lived with us.
Speaker 1: Did she live with you when your dad was alive
Speaker 1: or did she move in afterward?
Speaker 5: She lived with us ever since I could remember.
Speaker 3: I think she probably moved in maybe when maybe before
Speaker 3: I was born. She lived with us. I mean my grandmother.
Speaker 3: She was a deer. She was the sweetest thing. They
Speaker 3: broke them a little on her.
Speaker 2: How old were you when your grandmother died?
Speaker 3: I was thirty, so it was so right around the
Speaker 3: time that I moved out.
Speaker 2: But Lauren, do you live with your mom? Because you
Speaker 2: didn't want it to be alone and she needed the companionship.
Speaker 2: She had the companionship she had her mom. Why did
Speaker 2: she need you to be another third companion.
Speaker 5: She might not have, I guess.
Speaker 3: And I wanted to be there, to just be there
Speaker 3: for my grandmom. And she, by the way, wanted me
Speaker 3: to date and have friends. And my grandmother would say, oh, Lauren,
Speaker 3: I hope you find someone.
Speaker 5: You know, I want you to be happy. You know,
Speaker 5: get out, you need to get out and date.
Speaker 3: If you go out with friends, you know you'll end
Speaker 3: up meeting someone. So after my grandmother was in a
Speaker 3: nursing home, then it was just me and my mom,
Speaker 3: and I.
Speaker 6: Guess I felt guilty and leaving her alone, Yeah, because
Speaker 6: now she didn't have the companionship of her mom, and
Speaker 6: then she'd be losing you too.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: One of the things that happened sometimes in families is
Speaker 1: that we look at our parents and we say, well,
Speaker 1: I want something different from myself, and yet there are
Speaker 1: so many reasons that we're not aware of that we
Speaker 1: end up creating exactly the same thing. And I think
Speaker 1: what you've done out of some kind of connection loyalty
Speaker 1: is created something very similar, which is you are alone
Speaker 1: and you are lonely.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, I am alone. I've lived alone for twenty
Speaker 5: three years. Now, I am lonely.
Speaker 2: Lourene, we have some advice for you.
Speaker 1: What we were thinking about was this very famous quote
Speaker 1: by Carl Jung, and it goes like this, nothing has
Speaker 1: a stronger influenced psychologically on their environment and especially on
Speaker 1: their children than the unlived life of the parent. And
Speaker 1: we were thinking about that in terms of your relationship
Speaker 1: with your mother, and what a profound effect that has
Speaker 1: had on you and your life, whether you were aware
Speaker 1: of it or not. That again, the narrative that you
Speaker 1: had for yourself was I'm not attractive enough, I'm unlovable,
Speaker 1: something's wrong with me. But there was a whole other
Speaker 1: narrative which had to do with your mother's concern about
Speaker 1: not having you as your companion. And we want to
Speaker 1: free you from those shackles because your mother's not here anymore.
Speaker 1: You're fifty three years old, you're lonely, and you know
Speaker 1: what you want and really nothing is holding you back
Speaker 1: at this point but you and the faulty narrative that
Speaker 1: you're caring around.
Speaker 2: So with that in mind, we have two tasks for you.
Speaker 2: We would like you to write a letter that you
Speaker 2: think your grandmother would write to you, because she is
Speaker 2: the one that saw what was going on. She's the
Speaker 2: one that said, no, I want you to get out there,
Speaker 2: I want you to date, I want you to have
Speaker 2: a life. We would like you to write a letter
Speaker 2: from her to you in which she acknowledges the deep
Speaker 2: sacrifice you made by being loyal to your mom, by
Speaker 2: being her companion. And we would like that letter to
Speaker 2: be one in which she described to you how amazing
Speaker 2: she thought that was that you were taking such great
Speaker 2: care of her daughter that she could die knowing that
Speaker 2: her daughter was well taken care of. But what she
Speaker 2: wants for you now, most of all, is for you
Speaker 2: to start taking care of you.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 2: I don't want you to spare how amazing your grand
Speaker 2: mother thinks and thought what you did was, how amazing
Speaker 2: the sacrifice was, how loyal, how wonderful, how caring, how kind,
Speaker 2: and how noble. All right, So that's the first task, okay.
Speaker 1: And then we have sort of a two part second task.
Speaker 1: And the first part of it is that you have
Speaker 1: this narrative that something is damaged about you, something is
Speaker 1: wrong with you, because you started dating and having sex
Speaker 1: later in life. I mean want you to just entertain
Speaker 1: the idea that you started your adulthood at thirty one.
Speaker 1: That was when you left the house. You left the
Speaker 1: house at thirty one with unprocessed grief about your father's death,
Speaker 1: with feelings of devotion towards your mom that took precedence
Speaker 1: over fidelity to your own needs, and also a very
Speaker 1: clear sense of knowing inside of yourself that you wanted
Speaker 1: an adult life and indeed, within a year of leaving
Speaker 1: the house, you got a boyfriend, you started having sex,
Speaker 1: you were in a relationship, it wasn't the right relationship.
Speaker 1: Some of these myths that you were carrying around, like
Speaker 1: you're not attractive enough, or you're not good enough, or
Speaker 1: you're damaged goods because you were starting so late, were
Speaker 1: really shown not to be true. But every time you
Speaker 1: would confront that, you would sabotage something like there was
Speaker 1: that guy that you really liked and you went on
Speaker 1: that other date and then you told him about it.
Speaker 1: It seems like there was still that story that was
Speaker 1: holding you back, and we don't want that to happen anymore.
Speaker 1: So we want you to manage your dating life in
Speaker 1: a way that is not self sabotaging. Right now, you're
Speaker 1: on a dating app called Tinder, which tends to be
Speaker 1: more hookup oriented and maybe excuse a little bit younger,
Speaker 1: but it's not enough, and you don't seem to be
Speaker 1: getting very farther. So what we want you to do
Speaker 1: is we want you to get on many dating apps
Speaker 1: knowing what you know now, which is, oh, actually I
Speaker 1: had a pretty typical course of things. If you think
Speaker 1: about my beginning being at thirty one when I moved up,
Speaker 1: things were pretty typical. I had some low self esteem issues,
Speaker 1: I had some unprocessed grief, I had some blurred boundaries
Speaker 1: with my mother, so to a lot of people, and
Speaker 1: so instead of thinking of yourself as like this odd person,
Speaker 1: we want you to really embrace how typical you are
Speaker 1: if you look at it from a more accurate place.
Speaker 1: And then we want you to go on these dating apps.
Speaker 1: We want you to talk to your friends about how
Speaker 1: you really want to be set up and how you
Speaker 1: really want to meet someone, and we want you to
Speaker 1: not have these long back and forth with people, because
Speaker 1: we want you to get on a zoom date. And
Speaker 1: you're going to do that by asking someone out. And
Speaker 1: you're not going to ask out someone that you well, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe that's the best I can get. You're going to
Speaker 1: ask out the person that you are most excited about,
Speaker 1: and we want you not to ask yourself the question
Speaker 1: will he like me? But the question is I want
Speaker 1: to see whether I'm going to like him. He's the
Speaker 1: one who's auditioning, because you forget that there's another side
Speaker 1: to this equation, which is anybody who goes on a
Speaker 1: date with you is going to really wonder is she
Speaker 1: going to like me? How do I look? Am I
Speaker 1: going to be interesting enough? Just like that guy who
Speaker 1: really liked you, he was so hurt that you went
Speaker 1: out with someone else, and it didn't occur to you
Speaker 1: that someone could feel that way about you.
Speaker 2: We want you to be the one that texts the initiative.
Speaker 1: Right, because really this is about you embracing your freedom.
Speaker 1: You have absolutely nothing to lose here and you have
Speaker 1: so much to gain, and so we want you to
Speaker 1: commit to going on a zoom date with someone that
Speaker 1: is interesting to you every two weeks, giving you two
Speaker 1: weeks between dates, because we don't just want you to
Speaker 1: pick someone because you have this deadline.
Speaker 2: So we want to hear your assessment of him, like
Speaker 2: here's what I liked about him, Here's what I didn't.
Speaker 2: Here's where I think you know we're a good fit.
Speaker 2: Is where I think we're not. That's your focus. He's
Speaker 2: applying for the job. You're the one doing the hiring.
Speaker 3: So show up with the attitude that basically I'm looking
Speaker 3: to see if I like.
Speaker 1: You yes, And if the end of that one the
Speaker 1: answers are yes, then you say, hey, let's do this again, okay, And.
Speaker 2: To get in touch with the fact that you're showing
Speaker 2: up to that date, not as somebody who doesn't have kids,
Speaker 2: as somebody who's child free, not as somebody who was
Speaker 2: never married, as somebody who never had to go through
Speaker 2: a bit of divorce that made her resentful to it
Speaker 2: or man. In other words, you really need to understand
Speaker 2: that you are an amazing catch.
Speaker 5: Okay, sounds good.
Speaker 2: Lauren unleashed.
Speaker 1: Great, all right, So we look forward to hearing how
Speaker 1: it goes.
Speaker 5: Thank you both so much.
Speaker 3: I appreciate your time and your advice and your insight.
Speaker 2: You're very welcome.
Speaker 1: Lauric well off she goes.
Speaker 2: Into the wild, I think she's going to do it.
Speaker 2: I think she's going to write the letter. I think
Speaker 2: she's going to sign up for some websites. But the
Speaker 2: thing I'm most interested in is that if she does
Speaker 2: go on a date, can she go with that attitude
Speaker 2: of I'm interviewing you, of I'm checking out to see
Speaker 2: if you're for me, not vice versa. That to me,
Speaker 2: if she can do that, that would be the most
Speaker 2: promising thing.
Speaker 1: I just keep thinking about the unlived life of the
Speaker 1: parent and how much that has affected her life, and
Speaker 1: I think it's going to take her some time to
Speaker 1: unshackle herself. One thing I noticed when we were talking
Speaker 1: to her was that she's very much in her head.
Speaker 1: There wasn't a lot of emotion there. And also these
Speaker 1: were things that she was considering for the very first
Speaker 1: time that nobody had ever talked to her about the
Speaker 1: connection between what went on with her relationship with her
Speaker 1: mother and what goes on in her relationships with men,
Speaker 1: and so hearing it for the first time, I think
Speaker 1: she could hear it on an intellectual level, but I
Speaker 1: don't know that it was really sinking in on an
Speaker 1: emotional level. And so I think that writing the letter
Speaker 1: from her grandmother maybe will help her to integrate some
Speaker 1: of that on a deeper level and hopefully prepare her
Speaker 1: a bit better for the dates that she goes on
Speaker 1: so that she stops sabotaging herself. One thing we see
Speaker 1: so often is people, no matter what age they are,
Speaker 1: if they haven't worked through something, they end up sabotaging
Speaker 1: themselves so that they create a situation where it makes
Speaker 1: it impossible to get the very thing that they want
Speaker 1: the most. You're listening to dear therapists for my Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: We'll be back after a short break.
Speaker 2: So we heard back from Lauren. We gave her a
Speaker 2: lot of dating related assignments. Let's see how she did.
Speaker 2: This is Lauren.
Speaker 5: So I did the I guess the homework. We can say.
Speaker 7: I wrote the letter to myself from my grandmother's point
Speaker 7: of view, and I guess I was kind of expecting
Speaker 7: to have I don't know, I had some kind of reaction,
Speaker 7: and I really didn't have much of a reaction, but
Speaker 7: I think it kind of prompted me to start thinking
Speaker 7: about my uncle, who was at my mom's house a
Speaker 7: lot and I'm close to and I remember he commented
Speaker 7: a lot on you know, saying that it was kind
Speaker 7: of unfair that my mom used me as a like
Speaker 7: her companion is the term that he used, and that
Speaker 7: you know, he understood why I wanted to move out,
Speaker 7: and he was happy that I did it and comforted
Speaker 7: me when I did, and my mom got mad at me.
Speaker 7: And then I remembered something that after my mom had
Speaker 7: passed away, he actually he did thank me, and I guy,
Speaker 7: it's funny that you said to write a letter from
Speaker 7: my grandmother thanking me. I do remember him thanking me
Speaker 7: for taking care of his sister. He said, even though
Speaker 7: it's your mom, you know, I really you know, it
Speaker 7: was nice that that she had you. She was lucky
Speaker 7: to have you to to take care of her, and
Speaker 7: that he appreciated it. Then, as far as the dating,
Speaker 7: so I did sign up for two other dating websites.
Speaker 3: I've been talking to a number of guys. So right
Speaker 3: now I'm talking to someone and he seems like a
Speaker 3: really nice guy. We have similar interest in music. We
Speaker 3: get excited about the same music.
Speaker 7: But that's about as far as we've gone. I think
Speaker 7: we've had maybe three or four email exchanges, so I
Speaker 7: haven't spoken with him yet over the phone or video,
Speaker 7: but I imagine that's going to come very soon. I think
Speaker 7: it was a good idea that you told me to
Speaker 7: get on more serious websites so that I can kind
Speaker 7: of push myself and start dating. So anyway, I wanted
Speaker 7: to thank you guys for talking to me. It gave
Speaker 7: me a lot to think about the first week after
Speaker 7: I spoke with you, it was pretty emotional for me.
Speaker 7: I was just thinking about a lot of things, and
Speaker 7: I've decided to go into therapy.
Speaker 5: I start this week. I think Tuesday is my first appointment.
Speaker 3: Hopefully it will help me with a number of the
Speaker 3: issues that I have, so again, thank you.
Speaker 1: I think when people first hear Lauren's response, they might
Speaker 1: think that grandmother thing didn't really work. But as therapists,
Speaker 1: we see so often that what people do with a
Speaker 1: conversation often leads them to some kind of growth or change,
Speaker 1: even if it's not exactly as we anticipate, and I
Speaker 1: think that's exactly what happened here. So she wrote the
Speaker 1: letter to her grandmother, and she didn't have what felt
Speaker 1: to her like an emotional experience, but I think she
Speaker 1: did have an emotional experience because it brought to mind
Speaker 1: an emotional connection with her uncle and how her uncle
Speaker 1: was so supportive of her having a life and so
Speaker 1: appreciative of what she had done for his sister, her mother.
Speaker 1: And I think that's exactly what her grandmother did and
Speaker 1: said when she was alive too.
Speaker 2: It's funny because we chose the grandmother because we wanted
Speaker 2: her to see something through the eyes of a benevolent
Speaker 2: figure in her childhood. And she was like, oh, you
Speaker 2: know what, maybe that's not the right benevolent figure. I'm
Speaker 2: just gonna think of my uncle who was another benevolent figure.
Speaker 2: So she did actually the assignment, she just did it
Speaker 2: through the different eyes than we suggested. But I think
Speaker 2: she was actually really on point with the assignment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And I like that she did what we
Speaker 1: asked about, finding dating sites or apps that were more
Speaker 1: oriented toward what she's looking for, which is a serious relationship.
Speaker 1: And she did start conversing with people, and I hope
Speaker 1: that she will move it more quickly to let's have
Speaker 1: a video chat. But I think that she sounded really
Speaker 1: excited about the fact that there was this one guy
Speaker 1: with whom she had this potential connection with and no
Speaker 1: matter what happens with him, I think it will give
Speaker 1: her more confidence moving forward to really embrace herself as
Speaker 1: this independent adult who is entitled to have a loving,
Speaker 1: reciprocal relationship. And I think that even though her letter
Speaker 1: was about shame, ultimately, when you really examine the old
Speaker 1: story and you help to revise it with a more
Speaker 1: accurate current story, you free yourself from the shame and
Speaker 1: you can see yourself more clearly, and you can see
Speaker 1: your situation more clearly, and that liberates you so that
Speaker 1: you can move forward.
Speaker 2: And therapy should really help her with that, and so
Speaker 2: it's a really good move that she not only decided
Speaker 2: to go into therapy within a week, but actually scheduled
Speaker 2: depployment and is beginning the process. Very glad to hear that.
Speaker 1: Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to
Speaker 1: find out how our advice worked out a year.
Speaker 8: Later, and Guy had said that he didn't think I
Speaker 8: understood how bad it had been, and then Laurie actually
Speaker 8: later on said that oftentimes people are hesitant to confront
Speaker 8: those painful experiences because of what it might say about them,
Speaker 8: and I'll be honest, that was a really hard one.
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Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Speaker 2: Big Go Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia
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