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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, a single woman deals with shame about getting

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Speaker 1: a late start in dating and sex.

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Speaker 4: I guess I'm afraid to get into a relationship in

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Speaker 4: a sense because then people ask you about your history,

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Speaker 4: and it's embarrassing one to be fifty three and single.

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Speaker 4: Mentioned that to people that are always like shocked, and

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Speaker 4: I've had people say, oh gosh, what's wrong with you?

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Speaker 3: First A quick note, the therapist is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 3: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it is

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Speaker 3: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 3: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 3: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 3: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 3: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 3: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 3: and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 3: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey guy,

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Speaker 3: Hi Laurie.

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Speaker 1: So I think we have a really interesting letter today.

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Speaker 1: It goes like this, Dear therapists. I'm fifty three years

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Speaker 1: old and I have never been married and have no children.

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Speaker 1: I didn't have a boyfriend until I was thirty two

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Speaker 1: and lost my virginity with him when I was thirty two.

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Speaker 1: We dated for four years. It was not a good relateationship.

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Speaker 1: Since then, I've had a few relationships, but nothing lasting.

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Speaker 1: I feel a lot of shame and embarrassment over this,

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Speaker 1: so much so that I think I avoid dating so

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Speaker 1: I don't have to share this with anyone. I even

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Speaker 1: feel embarrassed putting it and writing to you. It actually

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Speaker 1: makes me WinCE and I feel like such a loser.

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Speaker 1: Admitting that I didn't have a boyfriend until I was

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Speaker 1: thirty two and was a virgin until then too. It

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Speaker 1: just makes me want to run and hide. I feel

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Speaker 1: like it's a dirty secret I carry around with me.

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Speaker 1: I'm very lonely and feel this shame or secret is

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Speaker 1: holding me back from entering into the loving adult intimate relationship.

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Speaker 1: I crave can you help me get over or work

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Speaker 1: through this shame? I feel thank you, Lauren.

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Speaker 3: Well, I feel really bad for Lauren, just because shame

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Speaker 3: is such a toxic feeling. Shame means that we feel

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Speaker 3: really bad about who we are as a person. You know,

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Speaker 3: guilt is about an action, Shame is about who you are,

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Speaker 3: and so to feel so bad fundamentally about who she

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Speaker 3: is for decades, I'm glad, she wrote, and I really

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Speaker 3: hope you can help.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad, she wrote too, because shame prevents people

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Speaker 1: from getting the things that they want in life. What

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Speaker 1: it does is it makes them hide. They feel like

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Speaker 1: they can't show the truth of who they are to anybody,

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Speaker 1: that they are fundamentally unlovable. And so I think what

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Speaker 1: she's got here is not just an issue around she

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Speaker 1: didn't have sex until she was thirty two, and that's

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Speaker 1: her big secret. But it's also this question of she

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Speaker 1: didn't have love, and what the shame does is it

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Speaker 1: prevents her from finding the love that she wants, and.

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Speaker 3: It's prevented her from doing that. Interestingly, even after she

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Speaker 3: had sex and had a relationship, it didn't free her

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Speaker 3: up enough. That shame was so deep that it continued

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Speaker 3: even after. So I would really be interested in finding

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Speaker 3: out why what happened that the shame is so deep.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go talk to her.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're listening to deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

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Speaker 3: after a quick break.

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Speaker 4: I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist.

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Speaker 4: So Hi Lauren, Hi Laurie.

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Speaker 3: Great to have you on the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: So we would like to hear a little bit more

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Speaker 3: of these feelings that you've had about not dating until

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Speaker 3: a later age, or about being a virgin until a

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Speaker 3: later age. Can you tell us a little bit of

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Speaker 3: the dating history.

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Speaker 4: I dated a little in my twenties, not very much.

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Speaker 4: I think I dated more, but just very casual. Never

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Speaker 4: a boyfriend. When I was in Spain, I studied abroad.

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Speaker 4: Maybe I think I started dating more. I probably felt

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Speaker 4: more free there, and I dated, but I never got

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Speaker 4: involved with anyone seriously, just kissed and made out really

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Speaker 4: nothing more than that. Then I dated like a few people.

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Speaker 4: And then when I was thirty two, I met this

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Speaker 4: guy and we started dating and he was the first

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Speaker 4: one that I had sex with, and my first like

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Speaker 4: real boyfriend, maybe second real boyfriend.

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Speaker 3: Okay, who's the maybe first real boyfriend?

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Speaker 4: A guy that I met through work. I think he

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Speaker 4: was probably a little bit more into me than I

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Speaker 4: wasn't too him, but because of his religious differences, he

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Speaker 4: didn't want to continue dating me, because it was a

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Speaker 4: matter of a matter of like my converting to his

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Speaker 4: way of thinking to religions.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering about this person that you met when you

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Speaker 1: were thirty two. So you said you dated a little

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Speaker 1: bit in Spain, and then you dated some other people,

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Speaker 1: nothing really much went anywhere. What was it about this

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Speaker 1: person that made you think I want to be in

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Speaker 1: a relationship with him and I want.

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Speaker 4: To have sex with him. Well, I guess what or

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Speaker 4: not I want to be in a relationship with him.

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Speaker 4: I think maybe in part I was kind of desperate

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Speaker 4: at that point, and he seemed like a decent guy,

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Speaker 4: and we like to do a lot of the same things.

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Speaker 4: And as far as the sex, I made him wait

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Speaker 4: for a while.

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Speaker 3: Why, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I guess some a friend of mine said, you can't

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Speaker 4: quite trust him, and I don't know. I guess I

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Speaker 4: just put it off. I don't really know that I

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Speaker 4: was scared. I don't think I was scared. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 4: not really sure. I guess that's I think I just

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Speaker 4: maybe it was a matter of trust with him that

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Speaker 4: I made him wait.

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Speaker 1: You said you were desperate. You used that word. Do

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Speaker 1: you mean desperate to be in a relationship or desperate

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Speaker 1: to lose your virginity? What do you mean by that?

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Speaker 4: Probably both. I really wanted a boyfriend, and obviously I

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Speaker 4: really wanted to have sex too, And I think, you know,

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Speaker 4: he came at a time and I was like, wow,

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Speaker 4: you know, I maybe I felt it's been a while now,

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Speaker 4: but maybe I felt like it was now or never,

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Speaker 4: and that he seemed like an okay guy. And also,

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Speaker 4: in thinking back, I wonder if, like I felt that

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Speaker 4: he wasn't going to demand a lot of me emotionally,

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Speaker 4: So maybe I kind of felt safe with him in

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Speaker 4: a sense, although I did tell him that he was

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Speaker 4: my first boyfriend and that I was a virgin until

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Speaker 4: that point.

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Speaker 1: How did he react to that information he shared with him.

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Speaker 4: I think he was a little surprised, but he didn't

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Speaker 4: really say, oh my god, why nothing. I don't really

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Speaker 4: think he had much of a reaction other than that you.

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Speaker 3: Said that you thought he wouldn't demand too much of

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Speaker 3: you emotionally. What do you mean when.

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Speaker 4: Laurie asked what was his reaction? I really didn't think

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Speaker 4: he would say, really, Lauren, why, Like why haven't you

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Speaker 4: been involved in relationships until now? Like what's going on?

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Speaker 4: So I think that he's not going to dig any

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Speaker 4: deeper into reasons why where I think somebody else might have,

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Speaker 4: you know, maybe questioned me on it.

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Speaker 1: So he was safe because you knew that he would

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Speaker 1: collude with you in not having to talk about something

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Speaker 1: that felt very shameful to you.

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Speaker 4: I think.

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Speaker 3: So I'm glave to hear a little bit about how

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Speaker 3: you were raised, Like what were the values around sex

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Speaker 3: and dating in your household when you were growing up

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Speaker 3: or a teenager? What was the messaging around sex and

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Speaker 3: especially you know, women and sex.

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Speaker 4: So well, I'll start off by saying, my dad died

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Speaker 4: when I was nine, and my mom never dated anyone

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Speaker 4: after that. I think one of the reasons my mom

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Speaker 4: never dated anybody after that is because she was overweight

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Speaker 4: and I think she was really ashamed of that and

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Speaker 4: just felt overwhelmed by it, and she had five kids

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Speaker 4: that she was left to raise on her own, and

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Speaker 4: you know, I just think she looked at that is

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Speaker 4: that this is what I'm going to do, and never

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Speaker 4: bothered to date. And my mom. As far as dating

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Speaker 4: and sex, I think it was almost like my mom

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Speaker 4: did not want me to date. I will say that

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Speaker 4: I think because I'm the baby. I was the baby

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Speaker 4: of the family. And my other two sisters they dated,

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Speaker 4: they had boyfriends young. My one sister got married when

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Speaker 4: she was eighteen. But with me, it was kind of

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Speaker 4: like a different story that she did not want me

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Speaker 4: to have boyfriends. She really didn't want me to have

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Speaker 4: a lot of friends either, but she definitely did not

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Speaker 4: want me to date. And as far as sex, she

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Speaker 4: really never said anything about sex. She was kind of

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Speaker 4: embarrassed of in talking about it with me when I

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Speaker 4: would ask her stuff. But I never got the idea

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Speaker 4: of like, oh, sex was dirty, nothing like that. She

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Speaker 4: just didn't talk about it. She didn't think it was appropriate.

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Speaker 3: What was your understanding of the different standards she had

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Speaker 3: for you, like you shouldn't date or even have that

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Speaker 3: many friends, versus as your sisters were clearly dating if

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Speaker 3: they were getting married so young.

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Speaker 4: I didn't understand it, especially when I was going through

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Speaker 4: it was really young. It just seemed very unfair to me.

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Speaker 4: She did not want me to go out and socialize.

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Speaker 4: There was a dance and junior high that I really

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Speaker 4: worked hard on and I it was expected to be

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Speaker 4: there by my teacher, and my mother would not let

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Speaker 4: me go.

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Speaker 1: Did your mom tell you when you said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I worked on this and I'm expected to be there.

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Speaker 1: What was your mom's explanation for why she didn't want

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Speaker 1: you to go?

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Speaker 4: I cannot remember. I just know she said no, I

226
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Speaker 4: just wasn't going to go. I don't really think she

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Speaker 4: gave much of an explanation, because I know I pessed

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Speaker 4: her her as to why. You know, she used to

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Speaker 4: say because I said so a lot, So I'm guessing

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Speaker 4: she probably said something like that.

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Speaker 3: You're saying she didn't want me to have that many

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Speaker 3: friends either. What was the reason for that?

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Speaker 4: I think, you know, I as an adult now and

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Speaker 4: looking back, I think that took away my time from her.

235
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Speaker 4: I think she kind of like used me as like

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Speaker 4: almost like a companion in a sense. When one of

237
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Speaker 4: my uncles actually commented that, like when I moved out finally,

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Speaker 4: finally in being what age thirty? Yeah, she didn't have

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Speaker 4: anybody and I wanted to help take care of her,

240
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Speaker 4: but I decided to move out.

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Speaker 3: So how much do you think it might be related

242
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Speaker 3: the fact that she was giving you these messages from

243
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Speaker 3: a very young age. Look, your dad's not around, it's

244
00:13:41,079 --> 00:13:44,599
Speaker 3: just me. I'm sacrificing everything for you five kids because

245
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Speaker 3: I'm not dating anymore. I'm just raising you and you,

246
00:13:48,119 --> 00:13:50,639
Speaker 3: Lauren the youngest, you should at least stay around and

247
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Speaker 3: keep me company as a thank you, or take care

248
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Speaker 3: of me a little bit. How much do you think

249
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Speaker 3: that played in to your feelings in your teens and

250
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Speaker 3: twenties about the fact that if you date and have sex,

251
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Speaker 3: it will take you away and you'll be betraying your

252
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Speaker 3: mom's wishes.

253
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Speaker 4: Really, I'm not sure. I mean, my mom never came

254
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Speaker 4: out and said, you know, you owe me this or

255
00:14:12,399 --> 00:14:13,919
Speaker 4: you know, you need to stay at home.

256
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Speaker 3: Have you felt it?

257
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Speaker 4: Yeah? I did feel it. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure

258
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Speaker 4: it played a role. Another thing that came into play

259
00:14:22,919 --> 00:14:26,279
Speaker 4: was my sister, who's two years older than me. She's

260
00:14:26,439 --> 00:14:31,319
Speaker 4: very pretty, and cousins and aunts and people at school

261
00:14:31,479 --> 00:14:34,359
Speaker 4: and people that knew us would always say, my gosh,

262
00:14:34,399 --> 00:14:37,999
Speaker 4: your sister is so much prettier than you. It must

263
00:14:38,079 --> 00:14:39,959
Speaker 4: be really hard to have for you to have a

264
00:14:39,999 --> 00:14:43,239
Speaker 4: sister that's so much prettier than you. So I heard

265
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Speaker 4: that a lot, and people wanting to fix her up

266
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Speaker 4: with people and not me. So I just kind of

267
00:14:48,999 --> 00:14:53,159
Speaker 4: got this message that, geez, I just there's something wrong

268
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Speaker 4: with me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we can hear that in your letter, that there's

270
00:14:57,039 --> 00:15:00,839
Speaker 1: a sense of feeling like you're unlovable. And what you're

271
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Speaker 1: describing are two things. One is you're describing what we

272
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Speaker 1: call a parentified child. So often this happens when a

273
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Speaker 1: dies and one of the children is expected to sort

274
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Speaker 1: of fulfill that role somehow for the remaining parent. Your

275
00:15:22,079 --> 00:15:27,439
Speaker 1: mom didn't date, so she didn't have companionship, but she

276
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Speaker 1: had you. She didn't want you to socialize, she didn't

277
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Speaker 1: want you to have friends. She didn't want you to

278
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Speaker 1: leave her, in whatever way that might have been, and

279
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Speaker 1: in fact, you stayed there until you were thirty. Even

280
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Speaker 1: if she didn't say I need you to do this,

281
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Speaker 1: you felt her need. You worried about her loneliness, You

282
00:15:49,119 --> 00:15:52,039
Speaker 1: worried about the fact that she didn't have anybody, but

283
00:15:52,079 --> 00:15:54,559
Speaker 1: you weren't focused on the fact that you were lonely

284
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Speaker 1: and you didn't have anybody. And then you got this

285
00:15:58,799 --> 00:16:02,839
Speaker 1: other message, Well, your sister's so pretty, and so it's

286
00:16:02,879 --> 00:16:06,959
Speaker 1: sort of like a perfect storm where it makes sense

287
00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:11,599
Speaker 1: that you would have all kinds of ca infusion around

288
00:16:11,799 --> 00:16:15,479
Speaker 1: your desires, your needs, and your loveability all at the

289
00:16:15,479 --> 00:16:19,759
Speaker 1: same time. And that's where shame comes in. It sounds

290
00:16:19,799 --> 00:16:24,159
Speaker 1: like you have so much shame around who you are,

291
00:16:25,199 --> 00:16:29,239
Speaker 1: what your past is. And what struck me so much

292
00:16:29,399 --> 00:16:30,999
Speaker 1: was when I asked you, why did you pick that

293
00:16:31,039 --> 00:16:34,119
Speaker 1: person at thirty two, and you describe yourself as well,

294
00:16:34,159 --> 00:16:37,479
Speaker 1: I was desperate, I wasn't really sure I trusted him,

295
00:16:37,519 --> 00:16:40,839
Speaker 1: I wasn't really sure I liked him that much. That

296
00:16:40,919 --> 00:16:43,679
Speaker 1: you were sort of just going for whoever would take you,

297
00:16:44,559 --> 00:16:47,639
Speaker 1: as opposed to going for who you truly wanted to

298
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Speaker 1: be with.

299
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're right, and I think I've done

300
00:16:52,039 --> 00:16:55,639
Speaker 4: that with almost everybody else that I've dated since then.

301
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Speaker 1: What made you move out at thirty? What happened at

302
00:16:59,439 --> 00:16:59,959
Speaker 1: that point?

303
00:17:00,559 --> 00:17:03,559
Speaker 4: There wasn't like some kind of defining event or anything.

304
00:17:03,599 --> 00:17:06,399
Speaker 4: It was just this is it. I have to move

305
00:17:06,439 --> 00:17:08,599
Speaker 4: out on my own. If I ever want to have

306
00:17:08,639 --> 00:17:12,319
Speaker 4: any kind of a life or a dot relationship, I

307
00:17:12,399 --> 00:17:14,879
Speaker 4: have to separate myself from my mom because she's not

308
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Speaker 4: doing me any favors.

309
00:17:16,879 --> 00:17:18,519
Speaker 1: How did your mom react when you told her that

310
00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:19,999
Speaker 1: you had made the decision to move out.

311
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Speaker 4: She was really pissed off for a few days, and

312
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Speaker 4: I think the day that I moved on the next

313
00:17:26,159 --> 00:17:30,399
Speaker 4: day she was fine fine. I think maybe my uncle

314
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Speaker 4: talked to her and said, you know, look, she deserves

315
00:17:32,319 --> 00:17:34,719
Speaker 4: to be on her own. And he's the one who

316
00:17:34,759 --> 00:17:36,959
Speaker 4: had commented before that you know she sees you as

317
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Speaker 4: a companion because she doesn't have anybody.

318
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Speaker 3: Lauren, when you say that you stayed with her till

319
00:17:44,159 --> 00:17:48,599
Speaker 3: you were thirty, and that doing that really cost you

320
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Speaker 3: in terms of your own independence, your ability to pursue

321
00:17:51,639 --> 00:17:54,679
Speaker 3: in your own life, and certainly your own relationships, and

322
00:17:54,679 --> 00:17:58,479
Speaker 3: that at thirty you finally say to I need to

323
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Speaker 3: move on with my own life, and her response is

324
00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:04,359
Speaker 3: to get pissed off. What that tells me is that,

325
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Speaker 3: even if she didn't verbilize this to you directly, the

326
00:18:08,759 --> 00:18:12,479
Speaker 3: edict of your role, Lauren is to be here with

327
00:18:12,559 --> 00:18:15,559
Speaker 3: me and keep me company and be my companion and

328
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Speaker 3: to prioritize my needs over yours. And I think that

329
00:18:20,999 --> 00:18:26,959
Speaker 3: that edict is something that you took in so strongly

330
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Speaker 3: that it really delayed your ability to start life until

331
00:18:33,159 --> 00:18:36,279
Speaker 3: you were thirty years old instead of starting entertayteen before

332
00:18:36,399 --> 00:18:37,959
Speaker 3: or twenty or something like that. So there was a

333
00:18:38,079 --> 00:18:42,399
Speaker 3: huge delay there. And what's interesting or unfortunate rather is

334
00:18:42,439 --> 00:18:44,839
Speaker 3: that to me and I think to Laurie, that's so

335
00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:49,359
Speaker 3: clear that you were staying out of loyalty, out of

336
00:18:49,439 --> 00:18:53,199
Speaker 3: love for your mum. But what registered for you at

337
00:18:53,239 --> 00:18:57,559
Speaker 3: the time was that you were staying because you're unlovable

338
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Speaker 3: and because you know you're not as pretty as your

339
00:19:00,439 --> 00:19:02,839
Speaker 3: sister and so you're going to have a hard time

340
00:19:02,919 --> 00:19:04,799
Speaker 3: finding someone to love you and to want to have

341
00:19:04,919 --> 00:19:09,599
Speaker 3: sex with you. That's what really got engraved almost into

342
00:19:09,639 --> 00:19:14,119
Speaker 3: your own head, and not I'm staying out of loyalty.

343
00:19:14,239 --> 00:19:18,559
Speaker 3: I'm staying for all these noble reasons in your head

344
00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:21,639
Speaker 3: to got interpreted into him staying because of shameful ones.

345
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Speaker 4: If you're asking if that's correct, I think it probably

346
00:19:27,399 --> 00:19:30,399
Speaker 4: probably is, although I didn't realize it at the time.

347
00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:35,799
Speaker 4: And yeah, I must have been scared or like you said,

348
00:19:35,839 --> 00:19:39,199
Speaker 4: probably ashamed. But also I was afraid of her reaction.

349
00:19:39,839 --> 00:19:41,759
Speaker 4: It's like, oh my gosh, she's going to flip out.

350
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,079
Speaker 1: Why were you so afraid of her reaction? You were

351
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,359
Speaker 1: afraid that what would happen if she got upset with you.

352
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Speaker 4: I guess that she wouldn't talk to me for maybe

353
00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,599
Speaker 4: a week or so, not that she had ever done

354
00:19:52,639 --> 00:19:54,719
Speaker 4: that before. My mom wasn't one to give the silent

355
00:19:54,759 --> 00:19:57,719
Speaker 4: treatment or anything. I was afraid that she would get

356
00:19:57,719 --> 00:20:00,679
Speaker 4: mad at me. And also my mom was like bad off,

357
00:20:00,719 --> 00:20:03,599
Speaker 4: like physically, she had a lot of trouble getting around,

358
00:20:03,679 --> 00:20:05,999
Speaker 4: so she depended on me to help her. So even

359
00:20:06,039 --> 00:20:07,719
Speaker 4: after I moved out, like I would go over and

360
00:20:07,719 --> 00:20:10,439
Speaker 4: fix dinner all the time for and she never once

361
00:20:10,479 --> 00:20:12,639
Speaker 4: after that said anything about me moving out.

362
00:20:13,039 --> 00:20:15,039
Speaker 3: How did she feel about you having the boyfriend?

363
00:20:15,959 --> 00:20:19,679
Speaker 4: She liked him? Okay, when we first started dating, she

364
00:20:20,279 --> 00:20:23,399
Speaker 4: get mad. She made comments to my sister that I

365
00:20:23,479 --> 00:20:25,919
Speaker 4: might will just go ahead and marry this guy because

366
00:20:26,679 --> 00:20:28,679
Speaker 4: I'm just spending all my time with him. And I

367
00:20:28,719 --> 00:20:31,759
Speaker 4: assume she thought I was having sex, or assumed I was.

368
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Speaker 4: She didn't like it.

369
00:20:33,279 --> 00:20:35,719
Speaker 3: She didn't like that you were having sex in your thirties.

370
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,119
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, she didn't think it was appropriate because I

371
00:20:39,159 --> 00:20:43,079
Speaker 4: wasn't married. And this came up with another guy after that,

372
00:20:43,679 --> 00:20:45,359
Speaker 4: to which I responded, well, do you want me to

373
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,199
Speaker 4: be a virgin until I die? You know, like what

374
00:20:47,239 --> 00:20:48,199
Speaker 4: if I never get married?

375
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Speaker 1: And her response to that was.

376
00:20:51,319 --> 00:20:57,559
Speaker 4: Yes, please, Okay, you know it's just something like you know.

377
00:20:58,999 --> 00:21:02,679
Speaker 1: The first thing that you said, though, was she commented, well,

378
00:21:02,719 --> 00:21:06,679
Speaker 1: you're just spending all your time with him. She is

379
00:21:06,919 --> 00:21:09,999
Speaker 1: very upset when you don't spend time with her, and

380
00:21:10,039 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 1: you're kind of saying, well, no, she wouldn't do that. No,

381
00:21:14,159 --> 00:21:16,639
Speaker 1: she's not a person who gets upset about these things.

382
00:21:17,159 --> 00:21:22,679
Speaker 1: She is incredibly upset about any bid for independence that

383
00:21:22,759 --> 00:21:25,639
Speaker 1: you make. And I'm wondering when you went to Spain,

384
00:21:25,679 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 1: and I think it was in your twenties and that's

385
00:21:27,439 --> 00:21:30,239
Speaker 1: when you started dating, what was her reaction to that.

386
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,279
Speaker 4: Well, she did not want me to go and to

387
00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:39,199
Speaker 4: study abroad. As you can probably guess, we're shocked shocked,

388
00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:42,999
Speaker 4: but I was set on it. I'm like, I'm going,

389
00:21:43,159 --> 00:21:46,759
Speaker 4: you know, too bad. So my aunt was like, oh,

390
00:21:46,799 --> 00:21:48,959
Speaker 4: this is a great thing. You know, I'm really happy.

391
00:21:48,959 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 4: You should be happy. Once it was determined that I

392
00:21:51,479 --> 00:21:53,399
Speaker 4: was going, but she was very upset. She was crying.

393
00:21:54,399 --> 00:21:57,519
Speaker 1: When you described that time in Spain earlier, you said,

394
00:21:57,559 --> 00:21:59,719
Speaker 1: you know, you were in Spain, you started dating, you

395
00:22:00,159 --> 00:22:03,039
Speaker 1: kiss some guys, and then you said, but it never

396
00:22:03,079 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 1: went anywhere. I wonder if part of the reason it

397
00:22:07,159 --> 00:22:09,319
Speaker 1: didn't go anywhere is because there you are in Spain

398
00:22:09,959 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 1: and there's a part of you that says, I really

399
00:22:12,399 --> 00:22:16,079
Speaker 1: want this, I need this. I am an adult and

400
00:22:16,199 --> 00:22:19,839
Speaker 1: I am in my twenties and this is something I

401
00:22:19,959 --> 00:22:23,999
Speaker 1: really enjoy. And there's another part of you that said,

402
00:22:24,079 --> 00:22:28,199
Speaker 1: but you're betraying your mother. And I have a feeling

403
00:22:28,239 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 1: that that's why nothing ever went anywhere. That the minute

404
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 1: you started to experience joy, you also experienced guilt, and

405
00:22:37,439 --> 00:22:40,759
Speaker 1: that the guilt won every single time, so you never

406
00:22:40,839 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 1: got to see would this go anywhere? Do I want

407
00:22:43,639 --> 00:22:46,439
Speaker 1: to be with this person? There was this voice of

408
00:22:46,479 --> 00:22:50,479
Speaker 1: your mother and this thought about her being so upset

409
00:22:50,519 --> 00:22:54,679
Speaker 1: with you and somehow betraying her, leaving her, abandoning her.

410
00:22:55,559 --> 00:22:58,999
Speaker 1: And it wasn't until you actually moved out that you

411
00:22:59,039 --> 00:23:01,999
Speaker 1: were able to say, I want to have a boyfriend.

412
00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:03,599
Speaker 1: I'm going to go forward with this.

413
00:23:04,919 --> 00:23:07,839
Speaker 4: I'm sure that you're right. I think it probably did

414
00:23:07,879 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 4: have something to do with it. And also one of

415
00:23:12,959 --> 00:23:16,319
Speaker 4: the things I will say is I just felt very

416
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,319
Speaker 4: ashamed of like my body, like I have a complex

417
00:23:20,439 --> 00:23:23,839
Speaker 4: with my legs being big. So maybe that and then

418
00:23:23,919 --> 00:23:26,719
Speaker 4: the guilt too. I never thought or the fear of

419
00:23:26,719 --> 00:23:29,039
Speaker 4: the reaction of my mom, of my mom's reaction.

420
00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 1: You know what, Lauren, it's so much easier to acknowledge

421
00:23:35,239 --> 00:23:38,719
Speaker 1: the feelings of I'm not good enough, my legs are

422
00:23:38,759 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 1: too big, than to go to the other place, which

423
00:23:41,679 --> 00:23:44,239
Speaker 1: is I'm really hurting my mother.

424
00:23:46,639 --> 00:23:48,799
Speaker 4: Oh, I never thought about that, Laurie.

425
00:23:50,319 --> 00:23:53,839
Speaker 3: To Laurie and I, this seems very very clear how

426
00:23:53,999 --> 00:23:56,719
Speaker 3: powerful the messaging of your mom was.

427
00:23:56,799 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 4: Oh.

428
00:23:56,959 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 3: But really, from the age of ten on to you,

429
00:24:00,399 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 3: your role is to be her companion, is to be there.

430
00:24:03,999 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 3: That messaging was so clear to you.

431
00:24:07,559 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 4: And I knew it had something to do with my

432
00:24:09,759 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 4: mom making me feel guilty, whether intentionally or not, but

433
00:24:14,799 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 4: never so deeply that I you know, I thought it

434
00:24:17,719 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 4: was a lot of just self shame. So this is

435
00:24:21,559 --> 00:24:23,559
Speaker 4: giving me a lot to think about.

436
00:24:24,319 --> 00:24:27,279
Speaker 1: I'm curious about the relationship that lasted four years.

437
00:24:27,279 --> 00:24:28,279
Speaker 4: Four years is a good.

438
00:24:28,239 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: Chunk of time. What happened there that the relationship didn't

439
00:24:33,159 --> 00:24:34,079
Speaker 1: work out?

440
00:24:34,959 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 4: We argued a lot. He lied just about little stupid things,

441
00:24:39,959 --> 00:24:44,719
Speaker 4: and that would just it would make me insane, you know,

442
00:24:44,839 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 4: like silly stuff like oh I didn't put the tomato

443
00:24:47,959 --> 00:24:50,719
Speaker 4: and the refrigerator, like well, there was no one else here,

444
00:24:50,759 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 4: of course you did, you Like, things like that would

445
00:24:52,919 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 4: just drive me up a wall. So and then he

446
00:24:56,239 --> 00:24:58,839
Speaker 4: lied about bigger things too, and he wasn't that smart.

447
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,599
Speaker 1: So at what point did you realize you actually did

448
00:25:02,639 --> 00:25:04,279
Speaker 1: not want to be with him? It sounds like pretty

449
00:25:04,279 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: early on.

450
00:25:05,399 --> 00:25:08,559
Speaker 4: Pretty early on. Yeah, I remember, like, you know, like

451
00:25:08,599 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 4: when I was alone, be like, God, you like give

452
00:25:10,399 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 4: me a sign, you like, should I be with him

453
00:25:12,199 --> 00:25:14,239
Speaker 4: or shouldn't? And now I look back and say, well,

454
00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 4: if you're asking God all the time, then there's your sign,

455
00:25:16,999 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 4: you know. You know, if there's that much doubt, then

456
00:25:20,279 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 4: it's not the right relationship.

457
00:25:22,159 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: For you, and you stayed because you felt like this

458
00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:28,079
Speaker 1: is the best I can get.

459
00:25:28,959 --> 00:25:29,279
Speaker 4: Yeah.

460
00:25:29,919 --> 00:25:33,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you had sex with him, that was your

461
00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:35,999
Speaker 1: first time. What was that experience like for you?

462
00:25:37,239 --> 00:25:39,719
Speaker 4: It was good. I really enjoyed it, like I always

463
00:25:39,839 --> 00:25:43,519
Speaker 4: enjoyed having sex with him. After the next guy that

464
00:25:43,559 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 4: I had sex with, I realized that I was really

465
00:25:46,679 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 4: just having sex with the first boyfriend, and the next

466
00:25:49,879 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 4: one it was you know, it was really good. It

467
00:25:51,959 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 4: was making love then having sex at the same time.

468
00:25:55,959 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 4: It was more emotional with the second person.

469
00:25:58,679 --> 00:26:01,839
Speaker 1: Did some of the shame go away? Meaning you stopped

470
00:26:01,879 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: worrying about how somebody was going to see your body?

471
00:26:06,959 --> 00:26:12,959
Speaker 4: I mean I still felt a little embarrassed, but not

472
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,839
Speaker 4: to the point where I wasn't not going to not

473
00:26:16,039 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 4: have sex.

474
00:26:17,879 --> 00:26:20,759
Speaker 1: What happened to the guy that you felt emotionally connected to.

475
00:26:22,239 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 4: I think I did something really stupid. We'd been dating

476
00:26:26,399 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 4: a few weeks, and before I met him, a girl

477
00:26:30,919 --> 00:26:33,319
Speaker 4: that I worked with wanted to set me up with

478
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,319
Speaker 4: a friend of hers, so it took a few weeks

479
00:26:37,319 --> 00:26:41,039
Speaker 4: to get that rolling. So I had been dating this

480
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,239
Speaker 4: guy who I really liked, I would say fell in

481
00:26:45,239 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 4: love with him. I think he had something to do

482
00:26:47,759 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 4: that weekend or something. I went out with the guy

483
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:53,799
Speaker 4: who the girl that I worked with set me up

484
00:26:53,839 --> 00:26:56,999
Speaker 4: on and I told him about it and I probably

485
00:26:57,039 --> 00:27:02,239
Speaker 4: shouldn't have and I think it probably hurt him. And

486
00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:05,039
Speaker 4: we hung out once or twice after that, but it

487
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,479
Speaker 4: was very clear that you was not going to date

488
00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 4: me after that.

489
00:27:09,799 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 3: These days, are you on any dating apps? Are you

490
00:27:13,959 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 3: open to dating? Where are you at these days in

491
00:27:16,519 --> 00:27:17,039
Speaker 3: terms of that?

492
00:27:17,999 --> 00:27:20,999
Speaker 4: Well, I'm open to dating. I am on Tender right now,

493
00:27:21,879 --> 00:27:23,959
Speaker 4: but I don't think it's the best website. It's a

494
00:27:23,999 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 4: lot of people just looking for sex. And I've talked

495
00:27:27,159 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 4: to a few people, but with these dating websites, you'll

496
00:27:30,679 --> 00:27:33,999
Speaker 4: talk a few times and then the conversation ends. So

497
00:27:34,039 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 4: I haven't been too serious about it.

498
00:27:37,159 --> 00:27:39,599
Speaker 3: Do you feel you're holding back from really giving this

499
00:27:39,679 --> 00:27:39,799
Speaker 3: a go?

500
00:27:41,239 --> 00:27:45,839
Speaker 4: Maybe maybe I could be. I guess I'm afraid to

501
00:27:45,919 --> 00:27:49,079
Speaker 4: get into a relationship in a sense because then people

502
00:27:49,199 --> 00:27:54,279
Speaker 4: ask you like about your history, and it's embarrassing one

503
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,079
Speaker 4: to be fifty three and single. I know children, and

504
00:27:59,159 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 4: you know, when you mentioned that to people, male or female,

505
00:28:02,199 --> 00:28:06,559
Speaker 4: they're always like shocked. And I've had people say, oh gosh,

506
00:28:06,639 --> 00:28:09,799
Speaker 4: what's wrong with you. This man's I had this too

507
00:28:10,079 --> 00:28:12,839
Speaker 4: this one day, and I started to tear up and

508
00:28:12,879 --> 00:28:15,039
Speaker 4: I walked away, and he came back a few weeks

509
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 4: later and you know apologized, you know, said he was sorry.

510
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,759
Speaker 4: And then another man just said, well, you must be

511
00:28:21,759 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 4: a real pain in the ass if you're still single.

512
00:28:27,599 --> 00:28:29,759
Speaker 1: That's a little bit like the people who said to you, oh,

513
00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:32,799
Speaker 1: your sister's so pretty, how do you feel in her shadow?

514
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,239
Speaker 1: It's really unfortunate that those things were said to you.

515
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 1: And when I think about when you say, well, I'm

516
00:28:38,999 --> 00:28:42,439
Speaker 1: just on Tinder, which is sort of are more of

517
00:28:42,479 --> 00:28:45,599
Speaker 1: a hookup site. Sure people find relationships on it, but

518
00:28:46,119 --> 00:28:48,279
Speaker 1: as guys that it doesn't sound like you're trying that hard,

519
00:28:48,439 --> 00:28:50,479
Speaker 1: and that when you did find that guy that you

520
00:28:50,519 --> 00:28:52,919
Speaker 1: say you were falling in love with, you went on

521
00:28:52,959 --> 00:28:55,439
Speaker 1: that other date anyway and then told him about it,

522
00:28:56,519 --> 00:28:59,759
Speaker 1: knowing that it probably wouldn't go over well. So there's

523
00:28:59,799 --> 00:29:03,119
Speaker 1: this element of even though you want this very badly,

524
00:29:03,959 --> 00:29:07,479
Speaker 1: you find ways to sabotage it. And I think that

525
00:29:08,119 --> 00:29:10,279
Speaker 1: if you and your mom are both love you have

526
00:29:10,359 --> 00:29:13,359
Speaker 1: that in common, that there's a connection between you. Even

527
00:29:13,359 --> 00:29:16,679
Speaker 1: if you're living separately, you're both these women who are

528
00:29:16,719 --> 00:29:22,599
Speaker 1: lonely and unpartnered. But if you become less lonely, then

529
00:29:22,959 --> 00:29:25,159
Speaker 1: she really is alone in her loneliness.

530
00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:29,639
Speaker 4: So, Laurie, actually, my mom passed away like ten years.

531
00:29:29,399 --> 00:29:33,919
Speaker 1: Ago, okay, but I think that there might have been

532
00:29:34,879 --> 00:29:37,839
Speaker 1: a time and maybe even you're still carrying this around

533
00:29:39,239 --> 00:29:43,639
Speaker 1: that there's still some sort of betrayal of her. If

534
00:29:43,679 --> 00:29:46,799
Speaker 1: you become less lonely, you lose that connection with her.

535
00:29:48,199 --> 00:29:50,559
Speaker 1: But that was something the two of you both had together,

536
00:29:51,719 --> 00:29:55,199
Speaker 1: was that loneliness. Nobody talked about it, but it was there.

537
00:29:56,119 --> 00:29:58,759
Speaker 1: You didn't have a parent who said I really want

538
00:29:58,919 --> 00:30:02,479
Speaker 1: you to find connection. I really want you to have

539
00:30:02,519 --> 00:30:04,759
Speaker 1: a full life. I want you to have friends and

540
00:30:04,879 --> 00:30:09,839
Speaker 1: family and relationships and all of those things that you desire.

541
00:30:11,519 --> 00:30:15,439
Speaker 1: Sounded like your mother was really not supportive of you

542
00:30:15,559 --> 00:30:19,319
Speaker 1: branching out and having a social life. Who are your

543
00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:21,839
Speaker 1: friends now, in terms of do you have close friends,

544
00:30:21,879 --> 00:30:24,119
Speaker 1: do you have friends who know your quote unquote secret?

545
00:30:24,719 --> 00:30:28,799
Speaker 1: Do you have friends who you talk to about wanting

546
00:30:28,839 --> 00:30:31,839
Speaker 1: to find a partner? Do your friends who really know you?

547
00:30:32,959 --> 00:30:37,679
Speaker 4: I have two good friends. I have more friends than that,

548
00:30:37,759 --> 00:30:41,599
Speaker 4: but two, I guess pretty close friends. As far as

549
00:30:41,679 --> 00:30:45,559
Speaker 4: I'm knowing my secret, not completely. No, they don't know

550
00:30:45,719 --> 00:30:49,119
Speaker 4: like I didn't date until I was very old, and

551
00:30:49,159 --> 00:30:51,799
Speaker 4: that I didn't lose my virginity until I was old.

552
00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:55,199
Speaker 4: I'm just kind of like, oh, yeah, I was older

553
00:30:55,359 --> 00:30:57,799
Speaker 4: when I lost it, and no one's pressed me.

554
00:30:58,799 --> 00:31:01,999
Speaker 3: I do want to point out, Lauren, that this very

555
00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:05,639
Speaker 3: strong link in your head between if I only lost

556
00:31:05,679 --> 00:31:08,799
Speaker 3: my virginity at thirty two, it's a shameful thing. Period.

557
00:31:08,879 --> 00:31:17,279
Speaker 3: They're no extenuating circumstances is in your head. But I

558
00:31:17,319 --> 00:31:19,239
Speaker 3: grew up in a household in which the messaging I

559
00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:22,959
Speaker 3: got was that sex was not something you did before

560
00:31:22,999 --> 00:31:26,719
Speaker 3: you got married. And I really internalized that strongly. And

561
00:31:27,039 --> 00:31:30,879
Speaker 3: my mum had some health issues and she needed a

562
00:31:30,919 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 3: lot of assistance and companionship, and so I stayed with

563
00:31:34,999 --> 00:31:38,519
Speaker 3: her until I was thirty out of loyalty and the

564
00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:40,759
Speaker 3: really desired to care for her because she was really

565
00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:43,679
Speaker 3: in need. Both of those stories are a true and

566
00:31:43,839 --> 00:31:48,759
Speaker 3: be paint you in a very positive light relationship wise. Right,

567
00:31:48,799 --> 00:31:51,479
Speaker 3: this is somebody who's loyal, This is somebody who's kind,

568
00:31:51,559 --> 00:31:56,519
Speaker 3: this is somebody who's compassionate, And those stories are truer

569
00:31:57,319 --> 00:31:59,399
Speaker 3: than the one you've had in your head all these

570
00:31:59,479 --> 00:32:02,719
Speaker 3: years of there was something wrong with me. I wasn't

571
00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:06,399
Speaker 3: lovable enough, or I wasn't as pretty as my sister,

572
00:32:06,559 --> 00:32:10,479
Speaker 3: and therefore that's why I wasn't dating, because that wasn't

573
00:32:10,959 --> 00:32:14,879
Speaker 3: the issue. And I think that you really need to

574
00:32:15,439 --> 00:32:19,319
Speaker 3: think strongly about changing the story in your head to

575
00:32:19,479 --> 00:32:23,999
Speaker 3: one that's more accurate and that's much less self damaging

576
00:32:24,239 --> 00:32:28,199
Speaker 3: and self flagellating and self demeaning, and there is no

577
00:32:28,319 --> 00:32:30,399
Speaker 3: shame in the real story.

578
00:32:31,999 --> 00:32:33,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're right. I think if I keep

579
00:32:33,919 --> 00:32:38,639
Speaker 4: telling myself I'm not good enough or pretty or pretty enough,

580
00:32:38,799 --> 00:32:42,879
Speaker 4: that I'm just going to keep living my life based

581
00:32:42,959 --> 00:32:47,159
Speaker 4: on those thoughts. Some things that you guys were saying today,

582
00:32:47,279 --> 00:32:52,119
Speaker 4: I really never really really considered them very much. I

583
00:32:52,159 --> 00:32:56,039
Speaker 4: didn't really relate it so much to my mom as

584
00:32:56,039 --> 00:32:59,399
Speaker 4: strongly as you guys think that it is related to her.

585
00:32:59,879 --> 00:33:03,319
Speaker 4: In our relationship, we've.

586
00:33:03,159 --> 00:33:06,519
Speaker 1: Talked a lot about your mom. I'm curious to know

587
00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:09,519
Speaker 1: what you remember about your dad. You said you were

588
00:33:09,679 --> 00:33:13,319
Speaker 1: nine when he died. What was your relationship like with

589
00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:17,239
Speaker 1: your dad, and what do you remember about him?

590
00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:20,999
Speaker 4: It wasn't like a real close relationship. One thing I

591
00:33:21,039 --> 00:33:23,319
Speaker 4: remember is my dad was angry a lot, and my

592
00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:27,359
Speaker 4: mom and dad argued a lot then when I was

593
00:33:27,639 --> 00:33:30,839
Speaker 4: when I was seven, they went to see a marriage counselor.

594
00:33:31,639 --> 00:33:33,559
Speaker 1: And how do you know that.

595
00:33:35,079 --> 00:33:37,759
Speaker 4: I think maybe my grandmom told me. I'm not really

596
00:33:37,799 --> 00:33:41,719
Speaker 4: sure because my mom really my mom did not talk

597
00:33:41,759 --> 00:33:43,479
Speaker 4: about this kind of stuff, but I know that's what

598
00:33:43,519 --> 00:33:46,999
Speaker 4: they did because I remember one time. I think as kids,

599
00:33:46,999 --> 00:33:49,399
Speaker 4: we waited in the car for them, So I guess

600
00:33:49,439 --> 00:33:51,319
Speaker 4: maybe one of my brothers or sisters said it was

601
00:33:51,359 --> 00:33:54,599
Speaker 4: like some kind of counseling or something. So after they

602
00:33:54,599 --> 00:33:57,959
Speaker 4: went to counseling, their relationship was so much better, Like

603
00:33:57,999 --> 00:34:01,559
Speaker 4: they held hands, they told each other they loved the

604
00:34:01,639 --> 00:34:04,079
Speaker 4: other in front of us, and they went out on

605
00:34:04,239 --> 00:34:08,599
Speaker 4: dates and we started doing more things as a family,

606
00:34:09,319 --> 00:34:11,119
Speaker 4: and then I didn't think of my dad as being

607
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 4: so angry. But that didn't last very long because then

608
00:34:13,879 --> 00:34:14,599
Speaker 4: he got sick.

609
00:34:16,119 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: So your mom must have been especially devastated that they

610
00:34:20,759 --> 00:34:23,039
Speaker 1: had just gotten their marriage on track. They were much

611
00:34:23,079 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 1: closer and then your dad got sick.

612
00:34:27,119 --> 00:34:31,439
Speaker 4: I'm sure she was devastated. But my mom just really

613
00:34:31,519 --> 00:34:35,559
Speaker 4: didn't talk about her feelings, you know, never talked about

614
00:34:35,599 --> 00:34:38,399
Speaker 4: missing him. My mom was really closed emotionally.

615
00:34:39,799 --> 00:34:42,479
Speaker 1: How did your family handle it when he died?

616
00:34:44,079 --> 00:34:47,919
Speaker 4: We were all really devastated. We were all very upset,

617
00:34:47,959 --> 00:34:52,439
Speaker 4: and I was very scared for years, Like as a teenager,

618
00:34:52,479 --> 00:34:55,079
Speaker 4: I was just so scared that my mom or grandmam

619
00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:57,199
Speaker 4: was going to die because my grandmother lived with us.

620
00:34:57,759 --> 00:35:00,199
Speaker 1: Did she live with you when your dad was alive

621
00:35:00,279 --> 00:35:02,199
Speaker 1: or did she move in afterward?

622
00:35:03,679 --> 00:35:05,959
Speaker 4: She lived with us ever since I could remember. I

623
00:35:05,959 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 4: think she probably moved in maybe when maybe before I

624
00:35:09,599 --> 00:35:12,439
Speaker 4: was born. She lived with us. I mean my grandmother.

625
00:35:12,559 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 4: She was a dear She was the sweetest thing. They

626
00:35:17,399 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 4: broke them old on her.

627
00:35:18,999 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 3: How old were you when your grandmother died?

628
00:35:22,639 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 4: I was thirty, so it was right around the time

629
00:35:26,799 --> 00:35:27,559
Speaker 4: that I moved out.

630
00:35:27,999 --> 00:35:31,959
Speaker 3: But Lauren, do you live with your mom? Because you

631
00:35:31,999 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 3: didn't want it to be alone? And she needed the

632
00:35:34,399 --> 00:35:40,119
Speaker 3: companionship she had the companionship she had her mom. Why

633
00:35:40,159 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 3: did she need you to be another third companion.

634
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 4: She might not have, I guess. And I wanted to

635
00:35:48,439 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 4: be there to just be there for my grandmom. And she,

636
00:35:51,999 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 4: by the way, wanted me to date and have friends.

637
00:35:54,359 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 4: And my grandmother would say, oh, Lauren, I hope you

638
00:35:56,759 --> 00:35:59,039
Speaker 4: find someone. You know, I want you to be happy.

639
00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:02,079
Speaker 4: You know, get out, you need to get out and date.

640
00:36:02,439 --> 00:36:04,199
Speaker 4: If you go out with friends, you know you'll end

641
00:36:04,279 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 4: up meeting someone. So after my grandmother was in a

642
00:36:07,839 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 4: nursing home, then it was just me and my mom,

643
00:36:10,119 --> 00:36:15,599
Speaker 4: and I guess I felt guilty and leaving her alone.

644
00:36:15,839 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, because now she didn't have the companionship of her mom,

645
00:36:19,959 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: and then she'd be losing you too.

646
00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:22,599
Speaker 4: Yeah.

647
00:36:23,519 --> 00:36:25,919
Speaker 1: One of the things that happened sometimes in families is

648
00:36:25,959 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 1: that we look at our parents and we say, well,

649
00:36:29,919 --> 00:36:34,599
Speaker 1: I want something different from myself, and yet there are

650
00:36:34,639 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: so many reasons that we're not aware of that we

651
00:36:37,319 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 1: end up creating exactly the same thing. And I think

652
00:36:41,359 --> 00:36:45,959
Speaker 1: what you've done out of some kind of connection loyalty

653
00:36:47,399 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 1: is created something very similar, which is you are alone

654
00:36:54,119 --> 00:36:54,999
Speaker 1: and you are lonely.

655
00:36:57,119 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I am alone. I've lived alone for twenty

656
00:37:01,359 --> 00:37:03,999
Speaker 4: three years. Now I am lonely.

657
00:37:09,319 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 3: I have some advice for you.

658
00:37:10,839 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: What we were thinking about was this very famous quote

659
00:37:14,799 --> 00:37:18,199
Speaker 1: by Carl Jung, and it goes like this, nothing has

660
00:37:18,199 --> 00:37:22,039
Speaker 1: a stronger influence psychologically on their environment and especially on

661
00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 1: their children than the unlived life of the parent, and

662
00:37:26,919 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 1: we were thinking about that in terms of your relationship

663
00:37:31,399 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 1: with your mother and what a profound effect that has

664
00:37:35,439 --> 00:37:39,079
Speaker 1: had on you and your life, whether you were aware

665
00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:42,119
Speaker 1: of it or not. That again, the narrative that you

666
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: had for yourself was I'm not attractive enough, I'm unlovable,

667
00:37:46,039 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: something's wrong with me. But there was a whole other

668
00:37:49,359 --> 00:37:54,599
Speaker 1: narrative which had to do with your mother's concern about

669
00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: not having you as her companion. And we want to

670
00:37:59,879 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 1: free you from those shackles because your mother's not here anymore.

671
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 1: You're fifty three years old, you're lonely, and you know

672
00:38:08,879 --> 00:38:12,679
Speaker 1: what you want and really nothing is holding you back

673
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:18,199
Speaker 1: at this point but you and the faulty narrative that

674
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:19,119
Speaker 1: you're carrying around.

675
00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:23,119
Speaker 3: So with that in mind, we have two tasks for you.

676
00:38:23,599 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 3: We would like you to write a letter that you

677
00:38:26,839 --> 00:38:31,159
Speaker 3: think your grandmother would write to you, because she is

678
00:38:31,199 --> 00:38:34,159
Speaker 3: the one that saw what was going on. She's the

679
00:38:34,199 --> 00:38:36,079
Speaker 3: one that said, no, I want you to get out there,

680
00:38:36,279 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 3: I want you to date, I want you to have

681
00:38:37,919 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 3: a life. We would like you to write a letter

682
00:38:41,479 --> 00:38:46,079
Speaker 3: from her to you in which she acknowledges the deep

683
00:38:46,119 --> 00:38:50,519
Speaker 3: sacrifice you made by being loyal to your mom by

684
00:38:50,599 --> 00:38:53,639
Speaker 3: being her companion, and we would like that letter to

685
00:38:53,679 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 3: be one in which she describes to you how amazing

686
00:38:58,119 --> 00:39:00,639
Speaker 3: she thought that was, that you were taking such great

687
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:05,679
Speaker 3: care of her daughter that she could die knowing that

688
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,919
Speaker 3: her daughter was well taken care of. But what she

689
00:39:08,959 --> 00:39:13,079
Speaker 3: wants for you now, most of all, is for you

690
00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:14,999
Speaker 3: to start taking care of you.

691
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 4: Now.

692
00:39:15,359 --> 00:39:18,999
Speaker 3: I don't want you to spare how amazing your grandmother

693
00:39:19,079 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 3: thinks and thought what you did was, how amazing the

694
00:39:22,279 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 3: sacrifice was, how loyal, how wonderful, how caring, how kind,

695
00:39:26,799 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 3: and how noble. All right, So that's the first task, okay.

696
00:39:32,959 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: And then we have sort of a two part second task.

697
00:39:36,599 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: And the first part of it is that you have

698
00:39:39,879 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 1: this narrative that something is damaged about you, something is

699
00:39:43,319 --> 00:39:47,479
Speaker 1: wrong with you because you started dating and having sex

700
00:39:47,559 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: later in life. And we want you to just entertain

701
00:39:51,399 --> 00:39:56,519
Speaker 1: the idea that you started your adulthood at thirty one,

702
00:39:57,279 --> 00:40:00,639
Speaker 1: that was when you left the house. You left the

703
00:40:00,639 --> 00:40:05,639
Speaker 1: house at thirty one with unprocessed grief about your father's death,

704
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:13,559
Speaker 1: with feelings of devotion toward your mom that took precedence

705
00:40:14,159 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 1: over fidelity to your own needs. And also a very

706
00:40:19,639 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: clear sense of knowing inside of yourself that you wanted

707
00:40:23,799 --> 00:40:26,919
Speaker 1: an adult life. And indeed, within a year of leaving

708
00:40:26,959 --> 00:40:29,919
Speaker 1: the house, you got a boyfriend, you started having sex,

709
00:40:29,959 --> 00:40:32,439
Speaker 1: you were in a relationship. It wasn't the right relationship.

710
00:40:33,319 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 1: Some of these myths that you were carrying around, like

711
00:40:35,399 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 1: you're not attractive enough, or you're not good enough, or

712
00:40:37,439 --> 00:40:41,079
Speaker 1: you're damaged goods because you were starting so late, were

713
00:40:41,119 --> 00:40:45,599
Speaker 1: really shown not to be true. But every time you

714
00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: would confront that, you would sabotage something like there was

715
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 1: that guy that you really liked and you went on

716
00:40:52,439 --> 00:40:55,199
Speaker 1: that other date and then you told him about it.

717
00:40:55,199 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: It seems like there was still that story that was

718
00:40:58,399 --> 00:41:02,159
Speaker 1: holding you back, and we don't want that to happen anymore.

719
00:41:02,199 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: So we want you to manage your dating life in

720
00:41:05,839 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: a way that is not self sabotaging. Right now, you

721
00:41:08,799 --> 00:41:12,679
Speaker 1: are on a dating app called Tinder, which tends to

722
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,199
Speaker 1: be more hookup oriented and maybe excuse a little bit younger,

723
00:41:17,439 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 1: but it's not enough, and you don't seem to be

724
00:41:20,359 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: getting very farther. So what we want you to do

725
00:41:23,479 --> 00:41:26,079
Speaker 1: is we want you to get on many dating apps

726
00:41:27,159 --> 00:41:30,439
Speaker 1: knowing what you know now, which is oh, actually, I

727
00:41:30,479 --> 00:41:32,999
Speaker 1: had a pretty typical course of things. If you think

728
00:41:32,999 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 1: about my beginning being at thirty one when I moved up,

729
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,119
Speaker 1: things were pretty typical. I had some low self esteem issues,

730
00:41:40,639 --> 00:41:44,639
Speaker 1: I had some unprocessed grief, I had some blurred boundaries

731
00:41:44,639 --> 00:41:44,999
Speaker 1: with my.

732
00:41:44,999 --> 00:41:46,679
Speaker 4: Mother, so to a lot of people.

733
00:41:47,199 --> 00:41:50,199
Speaker 1: And so instead of thinking of yourself as like this

734
00:41:50,639 --> 00:41:55,439
Speaker 1: odd person, we want you to really embrace how typical

735
00:41:55,479 --> 00:41:57,159
Speaker 1: you are if you look at it from a more

736
00:41:57,159 --> 00:42:00,079
Speaker 1: accurate place. And then we want you to go on

737
00:42:00,119 --> 00:42:02,639
Speaker 1: these dating apps. We want you to talk to your

738
00:42:02,679 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: friends about how you really want to be set up

739
00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:08,919
Speaker 1: and how you really want to meet someone, and we

740
00:42:08,959 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 1: want you to not have these long back and forth

741
00:42:10,919 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: with people, because we want you to get on a

742
00:42:12,839 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 1: zoom date. And you're going to do that by asking

743
00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: someone out. And you're not going to ask out someone

744
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,199
Speaker 1: that you think, well, yeah, maybe that's the best I

745
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,079
Speaker 1: can get. You're going to ask out the person that

746
00:42:25,319 --> 00:42:27,959
Speaker 1: you are most excited about. And we want you not

747
00:42:28,039 --> 00:42:31,079
Speaker 1: to ask yourself the question will he like me? But

748
00:42:31,159 --> 00:42:33,479
Speaker 1: the question is I want to see whether I'm going

749
00:42:33,519 --> 00:42:37,679
Speaker 1: to like him. He's the one who's auditioning. Because you

750
00:42:37,759 --> 00:42:39,959
Speaker 1: forget that There's another side to this equation, which is

751
00:42:39,999 --> 00:42:42,479
Speaker 1: anybody who goes on a date with you is going

752
00:42:42,519 --> 00:42:46,079
Speaker 1: to really wonder is she going to like me? How

753
00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 1: do I look? Am I going to be interesting enough?

754
00:42:48,639 --> 00:42:50,559
Speaker 1: Just like that guy who really liked you, he was

755
00:42:50,679 --> 00:42:54,959
Speaker 1: so hurt that you went out with someone else and

756
00:42:54,999 --> 00:42:57,679
Speaker 1: it didn't occur to you that someone could feel that

757
00:42:57,679 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: way about you.

758
00:42:58,799 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 3: We want you to be the one that takes the initiative.

759
00:43:01,679 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: Right because really this is about you embracing your freedom.

760
00:43:06,399 --> 00:43:09,599
Speaker 1: You have absolutely nothing to lose here and have so

761
00:43:09,799 --> 00:43:12,519
Speaker 1: much to gain, and so we want you to commit

762
00:43:13,359 --> 00:43:16,999
Speaker 1: to going on a zoom date with someone that is

763
00:43:17,039 --> 00:43:19,039
Speaker 1: interesting to you every two weeks. And we're giving you

764
00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:21,439
Speaker 1: two weeks between dates because we don't just want you

765
00:43:21,479 --> 00:43:23,559
Speaker 1: to pick someone because you have this deadline.

766
00:43:24,319 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 3: So we want to hear your assessment of him, like

767
00:43:29,079 --> 00:43:30,999
Speaker 3: here's what I liked about him, Here's what I did,

768
00:43:30,999 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 3: and here's where I think you know we're a good fit.

769
00:43:33,439 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 3: Is where I think we're not. That's your focus. He's

770
00:43:36,839 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 3: applying for the job.

771
00:43:38,359 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 4: You're the one doing the hiring, So show up with

772
00:43:41,399 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 4: the attitude that basically I'm looking to see if I.

773
00:43:45,319 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 1: Like you yes, and if the end of that one

774
00:43:49,919 --> 00:43:53,999
Speaker 1: the answers are yes, then you say, hey, let's do

775
00:43:54,079 --> 00:43:54,519
Speaker 1: this again.

776
00:43:54,919 --> 00:43:57,999
Speaker 3: Okay, And to get in touch with the fact that

777
00:43:58,039 --> 00:44:00,599
Speaker 3: you're showing up to that date, not as somebody who

778
00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 3: doesn't have kids, as somebody who's child free, not as

779
00:44:03,919 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 3: somebody who was never married, as somebody who never had

780
00:44:06,319 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 3: to go through a bit of divorce that made her

781
00:44:07,919 --> 00:44:10,399
Speaker 3: resentful to a doorman. In other words, you really need

782
00:44:10,399 --> 00:44:13,199
Speaker 3: to understand that you are an amazing catch.

783
00:44:14,439 --> 00:44:16,919
Speaker 4: Okay, sounds good.

784
00:44:17,679 --> 00:44:18,639
Speaker 3: Lauren unleashed.

785
00:44:20,799 --> 00:44:23,479
Speaker 1: Great, all right, so we look forward to hearing how

786
00:44:23,479 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 1: it goes.

787
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,519
Speaker 4: Thank you both so much. I appreciate your time and

788
00:44:27,679 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 4: your advice and your insight.

789
00:44:30,479 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 3: You're very welcome.

790
00:44:31,319 --> 00:44:40,999
Speaker 1: Lauren well off she goes.

791
00:44:42,919 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 3: Into the wild, I think she's going to do it.

792
00:44:46,639 --> 00:44:47,959
Speaker 3: I think she's going to write the letter. I think

793
00:44:47,959 --> 00:44:50,639
Speaker 3: she's going to sign up for some websites. But the

794
00:44:50,679 --> 00:44:53,479
Speaker 3: thing I'm most interested in is that if she does

795
00:44:53,519 --> 00:44:56,439
Speaker 3: go on a date, can she go with that attitude

796
00:44:56,599 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 3: of I'm interviewing you, of I'm checking out to see

797
00:44:59,879 --> 00:45:02,159
Speaker 3: if you're for me, not vice versa. That to me,

798
00:45:02,199 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 3: if she can do that, that would be the most

799
00:45:03,879 --> 00:45:04,519
Speaker 3: promising thing.

800
00:45:05,279 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: I just keep thinking about the unlived life of the

801
00:45:08,839 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 1: parent and how much that has affected her life, and

802
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: I think it's going to take her some time to

803
00:45:17,879 --> 00:45:21,119
Speaker 1: unshackle herself. One thing I noticed when we were talking

804
00:45:21,159 --> 00:45:23,159
Speaker 1: to her was that she's very much in her head.

805
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 1: There wasn't a lot of emotion there. And also these

806
00:45:26,759 --> 00:45:29,639
Speaker 1: were things that she was considering for the very first

807
00:45:29,679 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 1: time that nobody had ever talked to her about the

808
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:37,199
Speaker 1: connection between what went on with her relationship with her

809
00:45:37,199 --> 00:45:39,519
Speaker 1: mother and what goes on in her relationships with men,

810
00:45:41,199 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 1: and so hearing it for the first time, I think

811
00:45:43,879 --> 00:45:48,599
Speaker 1: she could hear it on an intellectual level, but I

812
00:45:48,799 --> 00:45:51,079
Speaker 1: don't know that it was really sinking in on an

813
00:45:51,079 --> 00:45:55,039
Speaker 1: emotional level. And so I think that writing the letter

814
00:45:55,079 --> 00:45:59,559
Speaker 1: from her grandmother maybe will help her to integrate some

815
00:45:59,679 --> 00:46:03,839
Speaker 1: of that on a deeper level and hopefully prepare her

816
00:46:03,879 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 1: a bit better for the dates that she goes on

817
00:46:06,879 --> 00:46:09,479
Speaker 1: so that she stops sabotaging herself. One thing we see

818
00:46:09,639 --> 00:46:13,999
Speaker 1: so often is people, no matter what age they are,

819
00:46:14,599 --> 00:46:17,959
Speaker 1: if they haven't worked through something, they end up sabotaging

820
00:46:17,999 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: themselves so that they create a situation where it makes

821
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,999
Speaker 1: it impossible to get the very thing that they want

822
00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:33,399
Speaker 1: the most. You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio.

823
00:46:33,759 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: We'll be back after a short break.

824
00:46:47,879 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 3: So we heard back from Lauren. We gave her a

825
00:46:49,799 --> 00:46:54,039
Speaker 3: lot of dating related assignments. Let's see how she did.

826
00:46:54,879 --> 00:47:00,439
Speaker 4: This is Lauren. So I did the I guess the homework.

827
00:47:00,559 --> 00:47:01,159
Speaker 4: We can say.

828
00:47:01,759 --> 00:47:05,599
Speaker 5: I wrote the letter to myself from my grandmother's point

829
00:47:05,639 --> 00:47:08,479
Speaker 5: of view, and I guess I was kind of expecting

830
00:47:08,519 --> 00:47:11,199
Speaker 5: to have I don't know, I had some kind of reaction,

831
00:47:11,799 --> 00:47:14,119
Speaker 5: and I really didn't have much of a reaction, but

832
00:47:14,959 --> 00:47:18,039
Speaker 5: I think it kind of prompted me to start thinking

833
00:47:18,079 --> 00:47:22,639
Speaker 5: about my uncle, who was at my mom's house a

834
00:47:22,639 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 5: lot and I'm close to and I remember he commented

835
00:47:26,879 --> 00:47:30,199
Speaker 5: a lot on you know, saying that it was kind

836
00:47:30,199 --> 00:47:33,679
Speaker 5: of unfair that my mom used me as a like

837
00:47:34,799 --> 00:47:39,039
Speaker 5: her companion is the term that he used, and that

838
00:47:39,519 --> 00:47:42,079
Speaker 5: you know, he understood why I wanted to move out,

839
00:47:42,119 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 5: and he was happy that I did it and comforted

840
00:47:45,799 --> 00:47:48,679
Speaker 5: me when I did and my mom got mad at me,

841
00:47:49,479 --> 00:47:52,039
Speaker 5: And then I remembered something that after my mom had

842
00:47:52,079 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 5: passed away, he actually he did thank me, and I guy,

843
00:47:56,839 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 5: it's funny that you said to write a letter from

844
00:47:59,799 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 5: my grandmother thanking me. I do remember him thanking me

845
00:48:02,759 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 5: for taking care of his sister. He said, even though

846
00:48:04,839 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 5: it's your mom, you know, I really you know, it

847
00:48:08,479 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 5: was nice that that she had you, She was lucky

848
00:48:11,439 --> 00:48:14,919
Speaker 5: to have you to take care of her, and that.

849
00:48:14,879 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 4: He appreciated it. Then, as far as the dating, so

850
00:48:21,319 --> 00:48:26,439
Speaker 4: I did sign up for two other dating websites. I've

851
00:48:26,439 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 4: been talking to a number of guys. So right now

852
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 4: I'm talking to someone and he seems like a really

853
00:48:32,839 --> 00:48:36,679
Speaker 4: nice guy. We have similar interest in music. We get

854
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,599
Speaker 4: excited about the same music. But that's about as far

855
00:48:40,639 --> 00:48:43,439
Speaker 4: as we've gone. I think we've had maybe three or

856
00:48:43,479 --> 00:48:48,439
Speaker 4: four email exchanges, so I haven't spoken with him yet

857
00:48:48,519 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 4: over the phone or video, but I imagine that's going to

858
00:48:52,399 --> 00:48:55,039
Speaker 4: come very soon. I think it was a good idea

859
00:48:55,199 --> 00:48:59,039
Speaker 4: that you told me to get on more serious websites

860
00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:03,159
Speaker 4: so that I can kind of push myself and start dating.

861
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:10,079
Speaker 4: So anyway, I wanted to thank you guys for talking

862
00:49:10,119 --> 00:49:12,879
Speaker 4: to me. It gave me a lot to think about

863
00:49:13,079 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 4: the first week after I spoke with you, it was

864
00:49:14,879 --> 00:49:18,039
Speaker 4: pretty emotional for me. I was just thinking about a

865
00:49:18,079 --> 00:49:21,919
Speaker 4: lot of things, and I've decided to go into therapy.

866
00:49:22,119 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 4: I start this week. I think Tuesday is my first appointment.

867
00:49:28,079 --> 00:49:32,199
Speaker 4: Hopefully it will help me with a number of the

868
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,879
Speaker 4: issues that I have. So again, thank you.

869
00:49:41,359 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 1: I think when people first hear Lauren's response, they might

870
00:49:45,759 --> 00:49:49,519
Speaker 1: think that grandmother thing didn't really work. But as therapists,

871
00:49:50,039 --> 00:49:54,399
Speaker 1: we see so often that what people do with a

872
00:49:54,479 --> 00:49:59,399
Speaker 1: conversation often leads them to some kind of growth or change,

873
00:50:00,279 --> 00:50:04,039
Speaker 1: even if it's not exactly as we anticipate. And I

874
00:50:04,039 --> 00:50:06,999
Speaker 1: think that's exactly what happened here. So she wrote the

875
00:50:07,039 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 1: letter to her grandmother, and she didn't have what felt

876
00:50:10,319 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: to her like an emotional experience, but I think she

877
00:50:13,399 --> 00:50:16,919
Speaker 1: did have an emotional experience because it brought to mind

878
00:50:17,519 --> 00:50:22,479
Speaker 1: an emotional connection with her uncle and how her uncle

879
00:50:22,599 --> 00:50:26,399
Speaker 1: was so supportive of her having a life and so

880
00:50:26,599 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: appreciative of what she had done for his sister, her mother.

881
00:50:31,759 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 1: And I think that's exactly what her grandmother did and

882
00:50:37,559 --> 00:50:39,479
Speaker 1: said when she was alive too.

883
00:50:40,119 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 3: It's funny because we chose the grandmother because we wanted

884
00:50:43,839 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 3: her to see something through the eyes of a benevolent

885
00:50:46,279 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 3: figure in her childhood, and she was like, oh, you know, what,

886
00:50:49,999 --> 00:50:53,119
Speaker 3: maybe that's not the right benevolent figure. I'm just gonna

887
00:50:53,639 --> 00:50:56,039
Speaker 3: think of my uncle, who was another benevolent figure. So

888
00:50:56,679 --> 00:50:59,679
Speaker 3: she did actually the assignment, she just did it through

889
00:50:59,759 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 3: the different eyes than we suggested. But I think she

890
00:51:01,959 --> 00:51:04,039
Speaker 3: was actually really on point with the assignment.

891
00:51:04,199 --> 00:51:06,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And I like that she did what we

892
00:51:06,999 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 1: asked about, finding dating sites or apps that were more

893
00:51:13,439 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 1: oriented toward what she's looking for, which is a serious relationship.

894
00:51:17,159 --> 00:51:20,279
Speaker 1: And she did start conversing with people, and I hope

895
00:51:20,279 --> 00:51:22,919
Speaker 1: that she will move it more quickly to let's have

896
00:51:22,959 --> 00:51:25,599
Speaker 1: a video chat. But I think that she sounded really

897
00:51:25,679 --> 00:51:27,679
Speaker 1: excited about the fact that there was this one guy

898
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,839
Speaker 1: with whom she had this potential connection with and no

899
00:51:30,839 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 1: matter what happens with him, I think it will give

900
00:51:32,879 --> 00:51:36,519
Speaker 1: her more confidence moving forward to really embrace herself as

901
00:51:36,799 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: this independent adult who is entitled to have a loving,

902
00:51:41,839 --> 00:51:45,439
Speaker 1: reciprocal relationship. And I think that even though her letter

903
00:51:46,279 --> 00:51:50,959
Speaker 1: was about shame, ultimately, when you really examine the old

904
00:51:51,039 --> 00:51:55,359
Speaker 1: story and you help to revise it with a more

905
00:51:55,519 --> 00:52:00,559
Speaker 1: accurate current story, you free yourself from the shame, and

906
00:52:00,599 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: you can see yourself more clearly, and you can see

907
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 1: your situation more clearly, and that liberates you so that

908
00:52:06,919 --> 00:52:08,439
Speaker 1: you can move forward.

909
00:52:08,519 --> 00:52:11,479
Speaker 3: And THERAPYI really help her with that, and so it's

910
00:52:11,519 --> 00:52:14,399
Speaker 3: a really good move that she not only decided to

911
00:52:14,399 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 3: go into therapy within a week, but actually scheduled the

912
00:52:16,799 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 3: apployment and is beginning the process. Very glad to hear that.

913
00:52:23,999 --> 00:52:27,039
Speaker 1: Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to

914
00:52:27,079 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 1: find out how our advice worked out a year later,

915
00:52:29,999 --> 00:52:30,519
Speaker 1: and Guy.

916
00:52:30,359 --> 00:52:32,519
Speaker 6: Had said that he didn't think I understood how bad

917
00:52:32,559 --> 00:52:35,999
Speaker 6: it had been, and then Laurie actually later on said

918
00:52:36,119 --> 00:52:41,679
Speaker 6: that oftentimes people are hesitant to confront those painful experiences

919
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,199
Speaker 6: because of what it might say about them, and I'll

920
00:52:44,199 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 6: be honest, that was a really hard one.

921
00:52:46,679 --> 00:52:50,079
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

922
00:52:50,319 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

923
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

924
00:52:56,359 --> 00:52:58,559
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

925
00:52:58,599 --> 00:53:02,079
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

926
00:53:02,679 --> 00:53:04,879
Speaker 3: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

927
00:53:04,919 --> 00:53:10,159
Speaker 3: Big Go Smooth, email Us at LORII and Guy at iHeartMedia.

928
00:53:10,359 --> 00:53:13,959
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

929
00:53:13,999 --> 00:53:18,159
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

930
00:53:18,199 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

931
00:53:21,759 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

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00:53:25,959 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 3: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

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00:53:28,479 --> 00:53:31,399
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.