1 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: Welcome back to it could happen here, the podcast that 2 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: is occasionally introduced competently as it sort of was today 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: because our guest today is someone who is very near 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: and dear uh to me and to like almost every 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: other person that I know and work with. Um, Moira 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: Meltzer Cohen. Moira, you are a lawyer, uh, focusing on 7 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: civil rights and movement kind of cases. Uh. And you 8 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: are the lawyer of yeah, like every everybody I respect 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: in the world. Yeah. Um, you're the person that I 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: text whenever I need to know, hey, was this a crime? Um? 11 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: Or it? And it never is. I'm with law abiding, 12 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: very law abiding um. And uh. Yeah, we wanted to 13 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: have you on both as you're always a breath of 14 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: sunshine and because um, there's some like lost stuff happening 15 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: these days. We just had our mutual friend Molly Conjure 16 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: on to talk about the Charlottesville case, which is quite 17 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: a thing. Today was the day. Yeah, Today Today had 18 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: some had some moments. Chris can't Well and Richard Spencer 19 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: representing themselves separately, each cross examining each other. I'd have 20 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: so many thoughts, but mostly my thoughts involved laughing. It's very, 21 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: very funny. It's it's it's the funniest of of an 22 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: incredibly tragic and infuriating situation. Something finely funny finally happened. Um, 23 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: So at least there's that often very funny in spite 24 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: of himself. Yeah, UM, I would love one day to 25 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: just get you on and duo, we can do a 26 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: reading of some of Chris can't Well's better legal filings. Um. 27 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: These guys quite the legal mind, Robert. I think I 28 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: maybe didn't ever tell you about the fact that we 29 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: um did a Poorams Feel, which is a performance of 30 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: the story of Esther Um, Oh my God, traditionally done 31 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: at Poor Ram, which is a Jewish holiday. Um, and 32 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: it was based on the complaint that he filed God. 33 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: Those Twitter the third was prominently featured in the role 34 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: of Hayman. For those of you who don't know, Chris Cantwell, 35 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: the crying Nazi from the Unite the Right rally, has 36 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: been incarcerated for a year or so now UM and 37 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: continues to put out his own legal motions, generally handwritten UM, 38 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: alleging all kinds of conspiracies from the people who did 39 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: not call the FBI and admit to committing several crimes. 40 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: We should we should absolutely absolutely do a crossover with 41 00:02:54,160 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: Dannel Harper um and to discuss Wells legal genius. But 42 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: but today more we wanted to have you on because 43 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: there is another case that, uh, a lot of folks 44 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: are rightly concerned about, because it has some pretty dire 45 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: implications depending on how it goes in a number of ways, 46 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: the trial of Kyle Rittenhouse. Um. For the I mean, 47 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: everyone knows Kyle written House took a gun illegally across 48 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,679 Speaker 1: state lines to a protest so he might have the 49 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: chance to shoot people. Um, and then shot people. This 50 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: is my opinion about what happened. Obviously, the legal case 51 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: is unfolding. Um, there's been a lot of talk online 52 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: on on Twitter and whatnot about how obviously unfair the 53 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: judges being. This is what the talk on Twitter is about. 54 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: And it's because of a couple of things. One is 55 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: that the judge and and again I'm before I cut, 56 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: I go to you, Moira. I'm just explaining kind of 57 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: the way the discourse has been. The discourse has stated like, well, 58 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: the judge said, you can't call Kyle, you can't call 59 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: the people that he killed victims, but you can call 60 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: the people that he killed looters and arsonists. UM. And 61 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: so people are saying, look at this very clear example 62 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: of how how bad the justice system is. UM. And 63 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: I wanted to bring you on for a number of reasons, 64 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: including the fact that, like there's a lot of stuff 65 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: that seems fucked up and in fact is fucked up, 66 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: you could argue, but it's also like like pretty normal 67 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: justice system stuff and some stuff that seems fucked up 68 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: but actually isn't. This is not I'm not necessarily talking 69 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: about the Rittenhouse case here, just in general, and we 70 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: talk about the law. So I guess I wanted to 71 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: have you on to explain to us what's happening in 72 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: your opinion and how normal, abnormal, good, bad are kind 73 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: of the things that we're seeing the decisions we're seeing 74 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: this judge make UM in this case so far. Yeah, sure, 75 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: absolutely so the trial, UM. I think when you asked 76 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: me to comment on this, UM, the trial had not started. 77 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: The trial has now started. It has been characterized by 78 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: the defense saying the N word be here this morning. 79 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: I think was just missed for making a cruel and 80 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: nakedly racist joke. Uh. And apparently the judge had a 81 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: fit of peak about the media's response to his evidentiary rulings, 82 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: which are what you've asked me to come discuss, UM, 83 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: which is itself actually one of the more unusual things 84 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: about this how this trial is going. UM. It's always 85 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: a little bit hard for me to appine on a 86 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: case that is not my case. UM. I feel tentative 87 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: about it. UM. This would never be my case because 88 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: I would not represent a white supremacist, and I am 89 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: not a prosecutor and would never be a prosecutor. And 90 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: I was not able to look at the briefing because 91 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: although all of the briefing was ostensibly publicly filed, it 92 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: is not actually publicly available. UM. I had a very 93 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: interesting conversation with the Clerk of court and Nosha, who 94 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: told me that if I mailed her a request, she 95 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: would fax me the briefing at a dollar twenty five 96 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: a page. And I said, thank you very much, goodbye. UM. 97 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: So I'll do my best to speak to these rulings, UM, 98 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: and the sort of larger issues as I see them. UM. 99 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: As you noted, there's been a lot of kind of 100 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: salacious headlines about the evidence here in this case. UM, 101 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,119 Speaker 1: and I think those headlines are really they're less about 102 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 1: what's actually happening in the case, and they're more reflective 103 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: of the sort of pearl clutching um liberal impulse to 104 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: to notice the totally self evident hypocrisy of the legal system, uh, 105 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: and then to conclude that because certain groups are shown 106 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: more leniency, the way to resolve this hypocrisy is to 107 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: make sure everyone is pleased and prosecuted and punished as 108 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: viciously as the left is, which is not actually the 109 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: goal that I have. UM. And just to clarify when 110 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: I when I talk about liberals as I as I 111 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: will probably do a little bit, UM, I don't mean 112 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: like I mean liberal as opposed to radical um. People 113 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: who are more or less okay with the underlying big 114 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: systems uh, like capitalism and white dipremacy and hetero patriarchy 115 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: and like maybe are more concerned with the iterations of 116 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: those things that are particularly ghost but they don't actually 117 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: mind the systems themselves or the way that those systems 118 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: are reiterated and enforced by, for example, the American criminal 119 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: legal system. UM. So you know, I think the kind 120 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: of liberal read on these rulings is not only not 121 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: legally sound, UM, I think it's actually incredibly dangerous. And 122 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: it's watching this unfold and watching the liberal commentary on it, 123 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: I think is one of the things. It's one of 124 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: the ways that I can really see liberal liberals and 125 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: liberalism losing credibility. Um, because because they're sort of calling 126 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: out this hypocrisy and at the same time, there's a 127 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: little bit of a double standard that they want to um, 128 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: that they want to propose an enforce UM. So okay, 129 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: So I'll talk about the rulings that you discussed. UM. 130 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: The first one is that the judge UM said that 131 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: the prosecution is not allowed to refer to the people 132 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: at Rittenhouse killed as victims. UM. I will remind you, 133 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: as I remind all of my clients continuously, UM, that 134 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 1: the law is at best adjacent to common sense understandings 135 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: of justice and even frankly common sense understandings of reality. UM. Obviously, 136 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: the people that Kyle Rittenkow's killed were victims. UM. But 137 00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: as my beloved colleague Sandy reminded me, UH, the concept 138 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: of victimhood, the status of victimhood is among the things 139 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: that needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt at 140 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: this trial. Yeah, right, UM, And so in in fact, 141 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: this is a totally straightforward ruling. It is a ruling 142 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 1: that I would argue for as a defense attorney and 143 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 1: that I expect to win where I trying in murder case. 144 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: So you know, it's one of those things like you 145 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: have to overcome this, this you have to overcome when 146 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: you're thinking about a trial, like the fact that you 147 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: know he's guilty, because the point of a trial is 148 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: that everyone like there's a process, right, we don't just 149 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: do street justice because that's what written House did um 150 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,719 Speaker 1: like we're we're you have to like one of the 151 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: It is troubling to me the extent that people are like, 152 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: well he he should be presumed like we should be 153 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: referring to the people he shot as victims before where 154 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: he has been adjudicated as guilty, because like that's that's important, 155 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: Like the presumption of innocence matters, and it's it's it's 156 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: also something that's very unfair, Like there's a person in Portland, 157 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: Alexander Dial, who got in trouble for taking a hammer 158 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: out of a Nazi's hand during a rally um and 159 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: has been charged with several felonies, and because his trial 160 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: kept getting delight spent two and a half years under 161 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: pre trial conditions, So the presumption of innocence is hardly equal, 162 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: but it is important. Yeah, exactly, And I think that 163 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: you know, we'll talk about this, I think in a 164 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 1: little bit, but that's exactly the issue, right, is that, Um, 165 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: we need to be enforcing the equal application of the 166 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: presumption of innocence, not being you know, rapidly going after 167 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: the right in the same way that we are used 168 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: to uh, law enforcement and the judiciary going after the left. Um. 169 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: The other rule thing that the judge made, um, which 170 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: you mentioned, was that he said that the defense is 171 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: authorized to characterize the people that written house killed as 172 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: looters or rioters if there's evidence presented that they were 173 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: in fact looting and were rioting. I would, if I were, 174 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: you know, in this case, which of course I'm not, 175 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: I would object to this on the grounds that it 176 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: is prejudicial in bullshit, and it's sucked up in bullshit. Yeah, yes, 177 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: that said, I am not super surprised by that ruling. UM. 178 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: I would say, it's likely within the sound discretion of 179 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: the judge and if you know, and if the prosecution disagrees, 180 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: it's a matter for appeal. UM. You know, I think, UM, 181 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: one of the things the judge said about this actually 182 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: that I think is really important and correct, UM, is 183 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: that he has uh a tremendous amount of discretion making 184 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: evidentiary rulings rulings. UM. One of the rulings he made 185 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: was that he's admitting the testimony of an expert witness, UM, 186 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: which you know, I think a lot of people are 187 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,719 Speaker 1: also quite upset about. UM. But that said, again, this 188 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: is not that unusual, and it's very difficult for him 189 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: to deny that motion to have his evidence or his 190 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: testimony admitted, because the prosecution routinely uses use of force 191 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: experts in similar trials. UM. So now we're they're just 192 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: on the other side of the table. Yeah. So you know, 193 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: first of all, I get that these rulings don't make 194 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: us feel good, UM, but they aren't that strange. And 195 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: as I said, the judge has tremendous discretion in these matters. UM. 196 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: I was thinking about how to illustrate this, and it 197 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: occurred to me that I think the last time I 198 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: was on one of your podcasts, you asked me whether 199 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: cocaine was illegal. Yeah, what are we landing on that? 200 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: By the way. So I think the first time you 201 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: asked me, I was a total kill joy and was like, 202 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: of course, it's a legal probert um. But if I 203 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: had actually taken your question more seriously, I think a 204 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: better answer probably would have been nobody knows, um for 205 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: precisely this reason, because the real question is not what 206 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 1: the law says. The real question is how, or whether, 207 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: or against whom, or to what degree and under what 208 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: circumstances will that law be enforced. And these are always 209 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: open questions and arguments, and judges have a ton of power. 210 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: This case is no exception. So you know, again, not 211 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: only are these rulings pretty standard, but there I think 212 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: within the judge's discretion. Some of them I really dislike. 213 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: Some of them make total sense to me, um, And 214 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: I think that what is happening is is not necessarily 215 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: sound legal analysis. But liberals sort of trying to argue 216 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: that Writtenhouse should be more harshly prosecuted by saying that 217 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: these specific rulings are unfair or unusual. It's a little 218 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: bit like the liberals crying out now because people are 219 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: putting like, let's go Brandon on printing it on rifle 220 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: receivers and saying like, well, the Secret Service should investigate it. Well, 221 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: if they do that, then some then like thirty. If 222 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: they do that and like one company gets a fine, 223 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: forty people are going to go to prison for having 224 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: red flags on their body armor. Like that's the way 225 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: it works in this country. But the right Yeah, any 226 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: any anarchists for the three D printer is gonna immediately 227 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: go to jail. Yeah that's not like that is correct? Yeah. Yeah. 228 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: So I guess the thing that I want to point 229 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: out here is that what is actually unusual about this 230 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: case is not these rulings. It is that Written House 231 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: is going to trial at all. And the reason Rittenhouse 232 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: is going to trial is able to go to trial 233 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: is largely because this prosecution is fundamentally calculated not to 234 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: be repressive. Um So, I want to kind of zoom 235 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: out and get away from the weeds of the evidentiary rulings. 236 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: Um So, in its simplest expression, when we talk about 237 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: the difference between state and federal jurisdiction, we're saying, kind of, um, 238 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: jurisdiction for dummies, Uh, overly simplified is stuff that happens 239 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: inside or only impact a given state. Is typically prosecuted 240 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: by the state and if it impacts if your offense 241 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: conduct or alleged offense conduct impacts more than one state, UM, 242 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: then it is or can be prosecuted by the Federal 243 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: Department of Justice. So Kyle Rittenhouse cross state lines with 244 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: a pretty serious firearm and he shot three people. This 245 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: puts us immediately into federal jurisdiction land. UM. He did 246 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: this in the context of an uprising for racial justice 247 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: that has been characterized by the fact that those rising 248 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: up on the side of racial justice have been subject 249 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: to intense repression by the federal government. D o J 250 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: has shown themselves to be fire breathingly enthusiastic of opicizing 251 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: their jurisdiction over heady offenses based on totally tenuous grounds 252 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: um for people on the left or who are perceived 253 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: to be on the left. UM. D o J has 254 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: asserted jurisdiction in order to prosecute people for um absolutely 255 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: trivial but politically motivated offenses that would be left to 256 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: the state to prosecute absent the politics of the accused. UM. 257 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: They have assertained federal jurisdiction on really flim the bases, 258 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,959 Speaker 1: like that a local police building or vehicle UM. Belongs 259 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: to an apartment that has received federal funding, so property 260 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: damage against it becomes a federal offense. One thing they're 261 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: doing that is unusual is the federal government is as 262 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: certain concurrent jurisdiction to prosecute offenses. So I know, there's 263 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: someone in Courtland who is simultaneously being prosecuted by multnoma 264 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:31,360 Speaker 1: and also the federal government um for allegedly throwing some 265 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: accelerant on a police building. UM. Right, So it is 266 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: very curious that written House, who quite clearly did something 267 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 1: that would you know, fall under federal jurisdiction, is not 268 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: being federally charged. And it matters a lot for how 269 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: the case proceeds, UM, because the way that federal prosecutions 270 00:17:55,520 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: operate is that the Feds will typically stack these indictments 271 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: UM in a way that really puts tremendous pressure on 272 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: them to plead guilty um, which is not typically the 273 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: case or it doesn't happen in the same way in 274 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: a state prosecution. So UM, you have these stacked indictments 275 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: with multiple, multiple counts ranging you know, all all kinds 276 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: of conduct um, often involving you know, a conspiracy, which 277 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: can be very very easy to prove um, and a 278 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: guilty finding on any of those counts could be like 279 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: a mandatory minimum of five to ten years. And then 280 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: if you're looking at, um, you know, a guilty on 281 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: more than one or all of those counts, you're looking 282 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: at a sentence, potentially concurrent sentences that our tantamount to 283 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: dying in prison. Right, And so this creates tremendous pressure 284 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: on federal defendants to negotiate a pre trial disposition to 285 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 1: take a guilty plea um. So again, Kyle Rittenhouse crosses 286 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: state lines with this firearm which gets used in the 287 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: in the commission of an act of violence. And I 288 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: feel extremely confident that any federal prosecutor could come up 289 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: with a stack of counts against him within about ten 290 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: minutes without breaking a sweat um. But you know, so 291 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: you know, if you think about him being in that position, 292 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: you think through, Okay, if I go to trial, what 293 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: is what are likely outcomes? If Kyle Rittenhouse went to 294 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: trial federally, and even if he prevailed on a self 295 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: defense right, which which could happen if you were found 296 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: guilty on one or more of the lesser charges, he 297 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: would still be looking at really really serious time, right, Um, 298 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: but that's not where we are, right. Um. We are 299 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: in a really weird place where like in a federal context, 300 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: we wouldn't even be like talking about evidentiary rulings because uh, 301 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: he would almost certainly not be going to trial, right yeah, 302 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: or you know, if he had a reasonable lawyer, he 303 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: would probably be negotiating a plea. I'm curious what do 304 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: you think about because one argument I've heard, and I'm 305 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: certainly in no position to evaluate this personally, is that 306 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: if federal charges had been placed on him, you know 307 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: when the crime in Trump would have pardoned him. Um, 308 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah, Like I've heard people argue that 309 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: that like, well, at least with the state charges, he 310 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: can't be pardoned by President Trump. Like, I'm in no 311 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: position to really evaluate that, but I'm curious what you 312 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: think about that. Hey, honestly can't even yeah, speculate about 313 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: what might have happened. That is very interesting. I do 314 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: think that if if d O J wanted to charge 315 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: him at this point, I mean not he only, but 316 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: like there I think wasn't opening for that to happen 317 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 1: after Trump left. I see, fact, there is a very 318 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: interesting foy a request to be made to d o 319 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: j uh to see what kind of memo was circulated 320 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: about whether or not they were going to pick this 321 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: one up. They clearly declined to prosecute Um. I the 322 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: only thing that I could come up with, to be honest, 323 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: And I looked and did not really see any meaningful 324 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: discussion of this, of their decision not to prosecute Um. 325 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: The only thing that occurred to me is that they 326 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: might have been reluctant to a search jurisdiction over a minor. 327 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: But they can prosecute anyone over the age of fifteen 328 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: as an adult if they engage in violent crimes or 329 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: if they are alleged to have engaged in violent crimes. 330 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: So that's not it wouldn't entirely undermine their ability to 331 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: do so. UM. So, you know, for whatever, you know, 332 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 1: for whatever reason they didn't, I think it is worth noting. 333 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: I think it is, as I said, very curious UM. 334 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: And it's particularly curious in light of the intense federal 335 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 1: repression that has been faced by people perceived to be 336 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: on the left, you know. So, like again, I want 337 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: to be very clear, I don't I'm not suggesting that 338 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: I want him to be federally prosecuted. UM, I don't 339 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: particularly I'm not interested in arguing for more prosecutions or 340 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: for making the state the arbiter of political righteousness, or 341 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: um giving the state more enforcement power or more resources. UM. 342 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: You know, but you know, and look at no shade 343 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: to Kenosha, Wisconsin. All right, But UM. One of the 344 00:22:54,119 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 1: things that the UH federal prosecutors are really have a 345 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: lot of experience doing is digital forensic investigations, and UH 346 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: in this case, one of the sort of critical questions 347 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: is did he have specific intent to go across state 348 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: lines and engage in violence? And I suspect that if 349 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: you were to access all of his texts and metadata 350 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: and social media posts, that you could probably find evidence 351 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: of that specific intent. And I think that the federal 352 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: government is probably better positioned to do that than the 353 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: prosecutors UH in Kenosha. And they decided not to, right, so, 354 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: you know, and that is exactly the kind of investigation 355 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: that they mounted against Daniel Baker, who justs a the 356 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: yoga teacher in Tallahassee, who just got three and a 357 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: half years for posting vague sort of incoherent, mutually contradictory 358 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 1: I'm not at all frightening. Yeah, it's not that I 359 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: wouldn't threats, but I hesitate to to that. You know, 360 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: he posted some stuff on social media and and now 361 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: he's going to do. Yeah, my attitude on the nature 362 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: of what he posts that, Like if prior to his prosecution, 363 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: you had brought that post. But to me, I said, well, 364 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: probably not a great idea to post. But also literally 365 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 1: every week a right winger in the Portland area posts 366 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: something significantly more actual. Right now, Chandler pappas currently being 367 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: charged with assaulting six police officers in the state capital 368 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: and Salem, just announced that he's doing armed training as 369 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: a convicted felon outside of Portland's uh later this November. Um, 370 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: which if he's if he touches a firearm, he should 371 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: go away to like based on the letter of the law, 372 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: he should go to prison for years. Like that's the 373 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: way the law is written. Nothing's going to happen to him. 374 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: He's going to get to train people with guns and 375 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: continue to carry guns and it's it's fine for him. 376 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 1: Um anyway, whatever, I'm sorry, it's okay. I guess your 377 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: your listeners can't see that. I have my head. Yeah, 378 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: I mean, look what Daniel Baker did was certainly ill advised. 379 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: If advised, it would characterize I have clients who have 380 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: been visited by the Secret Service or have been visited 381 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: by the FBI for saying stuff that when they call 382 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: me and they're like, well, I just said this, and 383 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I know that you're not gonna actually 384 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: do that, but maybe don't you know, it's it's not 385 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: it's ill advised, but it's protected by the very First 386 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: Amendment more or less. And you know, I've said this before. 387 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: I don't think the solution to two um being surveilled 388 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: on social media is self censorship. I think it is courage. 389 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: But I also think that discretion is the better part 390 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: of ballotor. So yes, pick your battles and maybe, yeah, 391 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 1: understand that it's not fair, you know. Yeah, And also 392 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: like what do you gain by you know, being bump 393 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: stous on the internet. It's one of those things where, yeah, 394 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 1: if that guy had had a high dollar lawyer, Um, 395 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: if he if he'd been a rich person, yeah, maybe 396 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: he would have gotten away with it. Um, who knows, 397 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: but like he it's it's he certainly would have gotten No, 398 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: I can certainly say he would have gotten away with 399 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: it if he'd been a right winger, because a bunch 400 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: of them do every single day. UM. I can't make 401 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: any speculation about that particular ship case, but I can 402 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: say that the people who are being surveilled intensely and 403 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: targeted for that kind of repression are not the people 404 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: on the right. Um. The people on the right are 405 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: able to make those kinds of statements and not be 406 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: particularly taken seriously even when they should be, and people 407 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: on the left are presumed to be you know, Antifa 408 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: super soldiers. UM. So you know, I think the decision 409 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: not to assert federal jurisdiction in the written House case 410 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: is interesting. It is noteworthy, really curious about what was 411 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: going on there. Um, and it has had a sort 412 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: of cascade of effects, including UM, I doubt that the 413 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: forensic digital investigation was as good as it would have 414 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: been had it been federal Uh. And I doubt that 415 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: the I mean, he's facing multiple charges, but I don't 416 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: think that he would have been as likely to go 417 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: to trial had he been federally charged. UM. So again, 418 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: I don't you know, this is not an argument for 419 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: more federal prosecution, but like I think the breathless outrage 420 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 1: that we're seeing in you know, these headlines, UM, where 421 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: people are correctly identifying the hypocrisy of the criminal legal system. UM. 422 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: I think it's sort of an exercise in point missing. Um. 423 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: You know, this prosecution, UM, like many of the prosecutions 424 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: that we see, or the prosecutions that don't happen at all, UM, 425 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: that involve members of the dominant class or people who 426 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: uphold the values of the dominant classes. UM, is sort 427 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: of proof of concept that it's possible to effectively allocate 428 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: the burden of proof to the prosecution. It's possible not 429 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: to go super hard on people and punish them for 430 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: exercising their trial, right, Um. Right, I mean, it's it's 431 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: possible two treat all people accused of offenses in this way. UM. 432 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: And I wouldn't much for there. I mean, obviously my 433 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: ultimate goal is to uh dismantle the entire system, you know. 434 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: But but in the meantime, I don't think what we 435 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: need is more vicious prosecution of the right. I think 436 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: we need consistent and commensurate prosecution or lack of prosecution. 437 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: We need, you know, uh, I think that seeing the 438 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: way that the right is treated should be evidence for 439 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:34,479 Speaker 1: an argument for the possibility of um treating all people 440 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: with more leniency rather than you know, intense the intense 441 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: federal repression that we are facing and have been facing, 442 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: you know since the Palmer Rates. Um. So yeah yeah, 443 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: ah um, Well that uh is the stuff I wanted 444 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: to ask about. Is there anything else? Um that I mean, 445 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: I definitely go off on liberals smart please, um please. 446 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: I mean, Garrison is a huge fan of liberals. He's 447 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: got actually a full back tack two of Barack Obama 448 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: and Bill Clinton, but they're they're in the volleyball scene 449 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: from Top Gun. Um. It's an incredible tattoo. He did 450 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: it all freehand on his own back. Amazing. Um, this 451 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: is like the Garrison. I hope I don't receive any stones. 452 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: I hope I don't receive any awful fan art. Now, someone, 453 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: someone do it. Come on, come on, photoshop Garrison's head 454 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: onto onto Roger Stone's back and the photoshop Nixon's head 455 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: out and the volleyball scene from Top Gun with Bill 456 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: Clinton and Barack Obama. Do it. Do it. Someone's gonna 457 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: do it, is definitely going to do it. This is 458 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: you consume me for this, and you'd be right to 459 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: do so UM, but let's get back to and I 460 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: might represent you trial of the trial of the century. Yeah, 461 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: that sounds great. I think this is a trend that 462 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,479 Speaker 1: we see with people who are not necessarily focused on 463 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: looking at the ways that the law is always going 464 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: to be used first and worst against the already most vulnerable. Right. 465 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: So we've seen things like, UM, I think there's just 466 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: this very well documented liberal impulse and I think it's 467 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: very well intentioned, but it's very dangerous UM to do 468 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: things to like assume that the system somehow works UM 469 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: or should work, and that it just needs to be 470 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: like followed more closely, and that if we push for 471 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: things like um, if we like use the law to 472 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: constrain things that would agree are the most harmful UM, 473 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: excesses of bigotry. Right, UM, that the law would be 474 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: a good tool for UM for addressing violence and bigotry. 475 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: The law does not, But that is not what kind 476 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: of tool the law is. UM. When we push for 477 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,959 Speaker 1: things like laws regulating political speech, including so called hate speech, 478 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: laws regulating what are referred to as hate crimes, laws UM, 479 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: regulating who can carry a fighter arm and what they 480 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: might look like. UM, you know, pushes for limiting the 481 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: places or circumstances under which you could protest UM or 482 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: demonstrate right, um, which you know, which was done. Um. 483 00:32:54,720 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: There there was a real big UM pushed to forbid 484 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: UH anti choice activists from protesting outside of UM clinics, right, 485 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: which I understand, right, But what actually is the upshot 486 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: of doing that? When we see this kind of push 487 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: to use the law as a tool to enforce a 488 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: particular political agenda, it is not you know, it's it's 489 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: just a very ill conceived way to approach this because 490 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: the law is never going to protect the most vulnerable. 491 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: Um well, these structures of power that up all remain 492 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: in place, and so you know, it's just always going 493 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: to be leveraged against the people who have the least 494 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: amount of power, and and so you know, this this 495 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: sort of response to the written house stuff, to me 496 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: is just essentially a recuperation of that impulse. Yeah, I 497 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: mean it's it's a little like that old I think 498 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: the joke has attributed to Gandhi. I don't know if 499 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: Gandhi actually said it, but like he was asked, what 500 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: do you think of Christian civilization? And he said, I 501 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: think it would be a wonderful idea. What do you 502 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: think of the fair and equal rule of law? Sounds nice? Um, 503 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: but yeah, one of the two, Um yeah, maybe both, 504 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: maybe both. I don't know that we ever saw them together. 505 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: Um right, So I don't know, I I it's it's 506 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: obviously it's too early to It's one of those things 507 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: where all of the complaining about the unfairness of the 508 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: trial of Written House winds up getting um rammed into 509 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: a legal wall. Metaphorically, Uh may seem silly in content 510 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: or in in retrospect, or he may this may be 511 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: the thing that ignites a new wave of vigilante showing 512 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,839 Speaker 1: up at protests with guns, but it seems to be untouchable. 513 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 1: Like really, the big fears that they don't set a 514 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: precedent that will allow other people to use quote unquote 515 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: self defense claims an effort just to kill black activists, 516 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: to kill activists on the left, to kill people wearing 517 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: you know, black hoodies and bandanas, because that's the it's 518 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: the big fear out of this situation. Because my my 519 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: expectation is that if Written House gets off or even 520 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: just gets very minor, like if it's if he's if 521 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: he's out of jail quickly within about six months, he's 522 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: going to be a millionaire. Um. Absolutely, Yeah, that's the 523 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: way the wing works. I would gently ask you to 524 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: think about what happens if he doesn't, because if he's convicted, 525 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: we are going to see a deepening of the repression 526 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,439 Speaker 1: that is faced by everyone on the left as well. 527 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 1: We lose either way. Yeah, which place is on the table? 528 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: There's no winning, I guess, I think, I mean part 529 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: of it, I guess depends on what he's convicted for. Um, 530 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 1: because some of the stuff has I would it seems 531 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: to me, some of the things he's charged with, if convicted, 532 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: there's more potential negative implications across the political aisle than 533 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: with others. Um, like if if it's ruled murder. I 534 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: don't know, that feels less worries. I mean, I have 535 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: some concerns about the crossing state line stuff. I don't know. 536 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 1: I mean, none of it's none of it's good. I 537 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: guess where I am is. I remember vividly how much 538 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,879 Speaker 1: the situation on the ground changed after Kenosha, just in 539 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: in Portland, even I mean, Garrison can can back we 540 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: up with that. They were there for that too, Like 541 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: it was a it was a significant shift in the 542 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,839 Speaker 1: feeling of deadliness, you know, whenever there was a right 543 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: wing left wing confrontation. Um and someone someone died a 544 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: few days later, someone died a few days later, and 545 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: in a fucking gunfight. Um And I I don't know. 546 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, Moira, Uh, I don't know. I I don't. 547 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: I don't want Rittenhouse to get off scott free for 548 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: shooting three people. You're absolutely right, there's no there's no 549 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: winning with the legal system. The only way to win 550 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: is not to play. The only way to win is 551 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:05,800 Speaker 1: not to play. So form your own breakaway civilization and 552 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: as Gandhi and Gandhi yeah, uh and Hubbard take to 553 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: the sea. Yes, yeah, always Look, I don't I don't think. Um, 554 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: I'm not looking for him to prevail on the self defense. 555 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: Not like none of this is going to make me 556 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: feel good. But I think that whether or not he 557 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: is punished, whether or not he is convicted, there will 558 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:40,879 Speaker 1: be negative recussions, and all of those negative consequences will 559 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: redound to the detriment of the people who are already 560 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 1: facing the most intense federal repression. Yeah, that is I mean, 561 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: in fairness, like this is the case of a child 562 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: who killed two people and is now we are determining 563 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 1: whether or not this child will spend the rest of 564 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: their life in a cell. None of this should make 565 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: anyone feel good, no matter what happens. It's a thoroughly 566 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: bleak story. Yeah. Yeah, it's because this kid is never 567 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: going to have a chance to grow up and be like, oh, 568 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: I was being like a horrible No, they'll never be 569 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 1: able to adjust to anything else rather than being this 570 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 1: person that like culturally has been created right there. They 571 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 1: are like a cultural thing. They're an item. They're not 572 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,479 Speaker 1: a person anymore, and they'll never be able to escape that. Yeah. 573 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 1: I was a piece of ship when I was seventeen, 574 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 1: and if I had had access to an a R 575 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: fifteen and a chance to feel like a hero, I 576 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: might have done something horrific too, And instead you were 577 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 1: just doing sloppy steaks And it's fine and now it's fine. 578 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: Um have you watched? I think you should leave Moira? 579 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, have you watched? I think you should leave Moira? No? 580 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: Oh it's good, it's good. Okay, alright, I'll check it out. Um, um, 581 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: I'll take a look. Yeah I don't know. Um, well, 582 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: thank you, Moira. Uh, this is always appreciated. UM, I 583 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: don't know, like, were you We've talked a bit about anarchism. 584 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: How many of how much? How much of like your 585 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: belief about the way the world ought to be and 586 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: is came as a result of getting into the guts 587 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: of the legal system. Do you mean did I become 588 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: more devoted to anarchism and I went to law school? Um, 589 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 1: I didn't become less devoted to it. I remember when 590 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: I was going to law school, people kept saying, Oh, 591 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: You're going to become really conservative, and I was like, 592 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: I don't think that's true. That seems seems fake. Uh. 593 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 1: And in fact, I remember, um being in my criminal 594 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: procedure class and just thinking, how in the world can 595 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: anyone at any law school read Miranda, which is a 596 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:16,439 Speaker 1: case where someone is, you know, just horrifically abused by 597 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: police in order to extract a statement. How could anybody 598 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,240 Speaker 1: read this case and not come out of law school 599 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,239 Speaker 1: with a deep contempt for law enforcement? You know, I 600 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:35,919 Speaker 1: know that it happens. I don't know how always uplifting, Yeah, 601 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 1: I mean it it is. It's important to know, you know. 602 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: I when I was, when I was younger, and poor 603 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: uh and dealing with things like taxes. I would often 604 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: go like years without paying them, and I would like 605 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: ignore debts and bills until like like my student loans, 606 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: until it became like a serious problem because I didn't 607 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: want to look at it. I didn't even want to 608 00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: like look at the scale of the issue and grab 609 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: with it. I just wanted to run away from it. 610 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 1: And when I actually like sat down and figured out 611 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: my situation and like really came to understand like what 612 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 1: what I needed to do in order to deal with 613 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: those problems, like, it was stressful and it sucked, and 614 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,319 Speaker 1: it was fucking days of work, but getting understanding the 615 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: scope of the problem I'd gotten myself into was a 616 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 1: necessary step to like fixing the situation. And I think 617 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 1: the same is true with like this kind of ship. 618 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,280 Speaker 1: It's not fun, nobody who is. I think a reasonable 619 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: person like wants to dig into the US justice system 620 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: and get into the guts of it because it's bleak 621 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: as hell. But you need to because it's it's you 622 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: can't escape it unless you flee the country and live 623 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: in a place with no extradition treaties, um or international waters. 624 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 1: I feel like you're talking about a lot of the 625 00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 1: people you've profiled. Yeah, I mean, Couador does sound nice. 626 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,880 Speaker 1: I'm sure it's loveliest time of here. Um. Yeah, I 627 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: think you're right. You need to be able to have 628 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: a sort of clear eyed assessment so that we can 629 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: accurately identify and effectively address the problems. Unfortunately, I think 630 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 1: the problems are so um all encompassing that I don't 631 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: know that there's I would venture to say that there 632 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: is not a real totalizing solution that doesn't involve total abolition. Yeah, 633 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,799 Speaker 1: I agree with you. But in the meantime, I mean, 634 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,919 Speaker 1: I think there are there are things that we can 635 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 1: do to to advocate for our clients, or as an individual, 636 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: you can do to protect yourself. And that's why it 637 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: is important to have some sort of working understanding, because 638 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: you can keep yourself and the people around you at 639 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 1: least somewhat safer if you do understand the beast um 640 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,319 Speaker 1: even though your goal is to is to destroy it. Uh, 641 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 1: And that's I think the only reasonable goal when you 642 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: really understand it, it's still behooves you to to understand it. 643 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 1: I mean, it's the same with like, it's the same 644 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: with what what Garrison and I do with the fucking 645 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,400 Speaker 1: Nazi spending all this time in weird telegram channels like 646 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,239 Speaker 1: reading what they're trying to understand them, because you do 647 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: need to understand them to effectively combat them. Well it's 648 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: not for the faint of her, no, no, yeah, neither 649 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,879 Speaker 1: is what you do. Um. The messages is that we're 650 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 1: all well adjusted and we're all great. That boats secondary trauma, 651 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 1: there's no secondary trauma and international waters Moira, I have 652 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 1: that that that my my old friend l R. H 653 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 1: told me that just you and the open sea and 654 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,800 Speaker 1: a bunch of twenty year old sir arching for gold 655 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 1: that I buried in a past life, live in the dream. Yeah, 656 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 1: he is both fascinating and terrified. Yeah. Um, just just 657 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,280 Speaker 1: like just like our legal system system. And that wraps 658 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: up this episode that brings us around. Um, anything you 659 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: want to plug any any place, Maybe our listeners could 660 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:30,720 Speaker 1: could send donations that would help somebody who's themselves against 661 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 1: a wall at the moment. Would certainly suggest that people 662 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,919 Speaker 1: look into whatever bail funds are local to them. There's 663 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: one I know in New York called COVID Bailout NYC 664 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,360 Speaker 1: that's um doing incredible work right now. To get people 665 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: off Rikers Island, which is having a humanitarian crisis of 666 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: just unbelievable scope. UM. It sounds to me like the 667 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 1: conditions on Rikers right now are at least as bad 668 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:04,759 Speaker 1: as the conditions that led to the Attica uprising. UM. 669 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,799 Speaker 1: So I would always, always, UM direct people to give 670 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 1: money to local bail funds. I also want to plug 671 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:17,320 Speaker 1: the National Lawyers Guild UH Anti Federal Repression or Federal 672 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,880 Speaker 1: Defense hotline, which is to one two six seven nine 673 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 1: to eight one one two one to six seven nine 674 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 1: to eight one one if you call that number, or 675 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 1: you can call that number if you are having unwanted 676 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,319 Speaker 1: contact with federal agents, and you can be advised by 677 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: an attorney who is me about your rights and responsibilities 678 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,319 Speaker 1: with respect to federal agents, and I will try to 679 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,560 Speaker 1: connect you with appropriate resources in your area. UM. This 680 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,720 Speaker 1: is not the hotline to call if you've been injured 681 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 1: by a police officer. UM. This is the hotline to 682 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 1: call if you have been visited by the FBI. UM, 683 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,960 Speaker 1: don't talk to cops. If few are contacted by law enforcement, 684 00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: say I am represented by counsel. Please leave your name 685 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,799 Speaker 1: and number and my lawyer will call you uh, and 686 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,280 Speaker 1: remember that you cannot talk your way out of and arrest, 687 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,839 Speaker 1: but you can talk your way into a conviction. All 688 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,240 Speaker 1: great points, all great things to be aware of. Um, 689 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,760 Speaker 1: speaking of great things to be aware of. Be aware 690 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 1: that we'll be back tomorrow, unless this is a Friday, 691 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,839 Speaker 1: in which case we'll be back next week. From now 692 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: until the heat death of the universe. Thank you so much, Laura, 693 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:36,720 Speaker 1: You're so welcome. It Could Happen Here is a production 694 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,800 Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 695 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,359 Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 696 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,680 Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 697 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,800 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 698 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,359 Speaker 1: for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone 699 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 1: media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.