WEBVTT - John Legend on broadening the Black experience and criminal justice reform 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:10.240 Hi, I'm Pete Bodh Jedge and this is the deciding decade. 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.720 The experience of music, playing music, listening, music sharing music 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.000 is a central part of life for so many of us. 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.840 Certainly for me, I played piano from an early age, 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.280 took up guitar as a teenager. I'm no professional, but 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:29.920 it's meant a lot to me as a different form 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:32.920 of expression, in a different way to respond to the world. 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:37.479 Music represents such a vital perspective with the potential to 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.839 cut across boundaries, habits and prejudice, and musicians have a 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.440 lot to offer, not just within but beyond the world 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.440 of entertainment. We live in a moment when we need 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:50.520 art and music more than ever. Yes, as a way 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:52.920 to stand apart from some of the pressures of the world, 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:56.240 but also as a way to better understand and deal 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:58.680 with those pressures. And that's why it shouldn't be so 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.720 surprising that some of the most powerful voices in our 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.080 political and social life today come from the world of music. 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:10.520 My guest today is a perfect example. John Legend needs 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:14.040 no introduction, but I'll introduce him anyways. John is a Grammy, 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:18.480 Tony Oscar and any award winning per former, artist, activist, husband, 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.280 and father, and all those awards make him only the 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:24.360 fifteen person ever to earn an EGOT, and the first 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.120 black man to do so. He has blessed our screens 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:31.800 and our ears with beautiful, powerful and important music, TV 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:34.760 shows and movies over the years, and he is working 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.240 passionately to restore rights and gain equality for so many 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.160 in this nation, including through his work with his organization 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.360 Free American, which aims to tackle mass incarceration. He has 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:47.920 been a leader in the struggle for racial justice, for 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.880 fair and quality education, and so much more. He is 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.080 a force for good in our country. John, really great 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:56.280 to have you. Thank you, Pete. It's great to be 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:58.720 here with you, and I'm excited to talk with you. 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.000 I want to start with what everyone has been talking about. 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:05.520 There's been a very important decision. The people have spoken, 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:10.000 the votes have been counted, and we now know who 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:14.279 the new winner is of the vote. Luckily, his predecessor 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:18.240 has been incredibly gracious and supportive. I'm speaking of horse 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.000 about the Sexiest Man Alive, Michael B. Jordan. How does 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:24.360 it feel to be a retired sexiest man Alive? Oh? 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.520 The pressure is off. I feel so relieved, like a 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:31.720 like a thousand pounds have been lifted off of my shoulders. 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:37.800 If only every transition was as graceful, I'll come to 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:40.160 I want to really excited to talk about and some 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.480 what's going on in our country right now with you, 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:45.000 because your perspectives have been so powerful. But but first 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:47.280 I wanted to go back in time a little bit, 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.919 because you are also a product of the Midwest. Grew 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:54.560 up in Springfield, Ohio. I believe a community where I 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.480 think your father worked in a factory, those communities that 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.079 that's something you understand very well. And I wonder how 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:05.400 do you explain a place like Springfield to people who 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:09.920 don't know much about the Midwest. Well, my area was 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.880 a very blue collar area. A lot of the people 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.920 in my town worked at the auto factory where my 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:20.840 father worked. He worked for a company called Navistar International, 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:25.120 who was formerly known as International Harvester. Uh. They employed 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:27.440 a lot of people in Indiana as well. In fact, 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.359 I remember when I was a kid, they were deciding 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:34.200 between putting some jobs in Fort Wayne or in Springfield 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.480 and uh and so uh it was. You know, it 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:41.760 was such an important topic of conversation in my community 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:46.520 where those auto jobs were going. And as you know, 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.360 that is a conversation that's had across the Midwest, particularly 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:56.040 in Michigan and Indiana, in various places throughout the country. Uh, 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.480 those jobs are very important. It was the reason that 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:04.360 my father had a stable career. He worked there until retirement, 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:08.360 got a pension, And I understand the value of u 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:13.200 a w job like he had. It was critical to 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:15.960 us living. Uh, you know, a decent life where they 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:19.240 could afford you know, food for us, shelter for us, 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.640 clothing for us, the basic needs that we we had 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.400 as kids. How do you think that shape coming out 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.599 of a community like that, in in a family like that, 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:32.480 especially somebody who's now so outspoken on on economic and 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.719 racial justice. Well, I think it makes it it clear 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:40.240 to you that policy decisions, that corporate decisions, have an 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:44.160 impact on real people. As my senator of my former 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.080 state talks about all the time, Sharrett Brown talks about 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.440 the dignity of work and how important it is that 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.719 we value workers. I think it's very important that we 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:55.720 do that in policy and in the way we talk 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.920 about these issues, that we value the honest work of 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.320 so many people throughout the country, so many of whom 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:07.000 aren't college educated. Some many of them are working um 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.680 in factories or in other jobs that are really important 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:14.840 to the lifeblood of this country's economy and our community, 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.920 but sometimes don't get a lot of glory or fanfare. Yeah. 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:20.359 I think one of the things that gets missed so 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.520 much in conversations about the economy is how much a 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.680 job can really meet right And when you're talking about 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.680 uh U a W workers or or people in professions, 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:32.680 or at the ways that you know, whether it's a 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.279 firm event for a lawyer or a union picnic for 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:37.320 U a W. That's where your spouses and kids get 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:39.240 to know each other. It's it's a lot more than 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:40.599 just a job. And it feels like a lot of 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.520 policies are designed to maybe make sure somebody still has 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:47.200 the income when their economic life is disrupted, but totally 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:51.159 overlooks how much else is at stake in the patterns 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.640 people grew up on where you could count on them 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:56.520 maybe a lifelong relationship with with one employer, or at 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.880 least a lifelong career in one industry, right right. And 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.320 I think it's okay to be nostalgic for the error, 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:04.320 but we also have to be realistic that a lot 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:07.880 of jobs aren't going to be lifelong. Uh. There, people 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.360 are going to change jobs, are gonna change careers. Sometimes 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.160 they're gonna have to go back and get retraining. And 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.919 uh we need to have I think policies uh that 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:21.400 are flexible for people and opportunities for them to take 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.760 some risks. Um. That's why I was always wary of, 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:28.520 you know, health insurance being tied to people's uh job, 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:33.240 because when it's tied to something that's not permanent, then, uh, 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.400 it's quite stressful when people lose their jobs. And um 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:40.080 to add the stress of having to figure out how 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:42.520 they're going to take care of their family if someone 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.680 gets sick. You know, we need to think about all 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.280 of that. I think we can be as nostalgic as 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:49.360 we want to be for an era when people kept 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:51.800 the same job like my dad did, but we have 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:53.680 to realize that that's not always going to be the case, 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.039 and it's more likely than not not going to be 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.360 the case. Uh, And uh we need to have policies 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:03.800 that may get so that, uh, there is flexibility, there's 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.680 a safety net, there are opportunities in place for people 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.560 who may have a more dynamic career path right, and 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:12.960 we can design for that right, whether we're talking about healthcare, 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.720 whether we're talking about sick leave. I mean, there's no 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:20.240 iron law that the unemployment insurance or you b I 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:25.280 even all these things that would give people some flexibility 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:29.000 and respond to the fact that the economy is pretty dynamic. 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:49.200 So I gotta say, you're known to be extremely talented, 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.160 but I'm not sure people who don't know about your 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:56.320 political side would have expected to hear you talking with 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.560 a lot of sophistication about policy. You're you're and You've 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:01.880 chosen weigh in on these things. And I'm wondering, do 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.320 you do you face pressure to stick to entertainment that 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:07.880 this kind of outside of politics, or is it just 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:09.520 the most natural thing the world for you to talk 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.760 policy and to be uh such a larger than my 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.400 figure in the entertainment world. At the same time, I 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:21.760 do face uh some criticism and backlash, particularly on Twitter. 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:26.480 Imagine that. But you know plenty of people telling me 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.600 to shut up and sing, or we don't care about 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:33.160 your political opinions. Obviously, I think about these things a lot. 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:35.040 I care about them, and I talked about them because 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:38.600 I'm interested in I care, and I genuinely want outcomes 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:40.560 that I think will be better for the country. And 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.840 I say it, but you shouldn't value my opinion just 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.439 because I'm famous and I have a lot of Twitter followers. 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:50.240 Assess it based on the merits of what I'm saying. 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:52.720 If you think it would be terrible for the country, 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:55.040 disagree with me, but don't do it because I'm a 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:57.559 singer and I don't have the right to speak out 0:08:57.600 --> 0:08:59.439 about it. Do it because you think I'm wrong on 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.559 the merits. So I think we can all have these conversations, 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.280 and my assertion that I think all of us should 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:09.599 share is that all of us have a stake and 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:13.960 what's happening in the country. We're all citizens. We vote here, 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:18.880 we pay taxes here, and I always remember that government 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:24.080 isn't some other thing, it's us. We pull our money 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:28.360 together in the form of taxes, and then we elect 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:32.120 people that we expect to represent our best interests and 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.320 do what's best for the community. You mentioned Twitter. I 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:37.440 want to talk about that a little bit. What are 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:39.840 we gonna do about Twitter? What are we gonna do 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.440 about social media? I mean, it's it's such an important 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:45.120 part of how we communicate, and it's also obviously not 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.280 a space that's exactly bringing out the best of all 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.360 of us all the time. Where do you think we're headed? Well, 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.120 you know, I'm of two minds about it, because on 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.839 one hand, I really believe I've learned a lot by 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.640 being engaged on Twitter. I think there are really interesting 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:03.199 voice is who I would never have known about unless 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:07.640 I UH saw a retweet from them from another person 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.200 that I trusted on Twitter, and and I think my 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:15.360 circle of people I'm interested in and read articles from 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:19.760 and and and read Twitter threads from it has expanded, 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:21.600 and I think it's been a good thing for me. 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:24.200 There's so many issues I would have not known as 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.520 much about, and I think a lot of voices who 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:32.000 previously would have been marginalized by the corporate media structure 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:36.000 UH had an opportunity to be heard. And I think 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.280 that is a really good thing. Of course, with that 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:44.160 really good thing, there's also UH the opportunity to miss 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.360 INFORMIM to to use disinformation in social media, and we've 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:52.120 seen the President of take full advantage of that and 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:56.640 just repeat lie after lie after lie after lie, and 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:01.920 UM intentionally poisoned the conversation and in a way that 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:06.920 needs to be addressed. Um, when it's obvious that someone's 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:11.080 lying and it's having a really terrible effect on the 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.960 conversation and on people's lives, particularly when it comes to 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.280 COVID and other issues of life and death. I think 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:21.520 these social media organizations need to find ways to censor 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:25.280 that content. People can say it and not get arrested. 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:28.920 That's free speech, but they don't have the right to 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.960 say anything on any social platform that's privately owned or 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.640 incorporately owned, and they don't have the right to say 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:38.600 anything without consequence. They have the right to say it 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.280 without getting locked up, but they don't have the right 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.319 to just say it. It's also the case that, uh, 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:46.079 you know, for all the problems that have come our 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:49.840 way through things like social media and technology, it's also 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.040 helped shine a light on abuses that people would not 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:58.760 have known otherwise. I was researching a book I wrote 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:01.800 recently on trust, and I found some writings from the 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:03.840 ninety nineties when people were just trying to figure out 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:06.160 what the internet was gonna do, and some of them 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:08.880 they sound really utopian now, you know. One of was 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:11.559 about it gushing about how you know the future and 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:13.800 the digital era, everything is gonna be driven by fact 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:16.440 and then we know it didn't work out. But I 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:18.920 saw another piece and it was written by someone who 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.719 specialized in studying the former Soviet republics, and he was 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.200 a human rights expert, and he's writing about how, you know, 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:28.920 as digital communications proliferate, it's gonna become more and more 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.920 possible for human rights abuses to be documented and they 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.679 can't be denied by the regimes where they have now. 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.360 He was thinking about Central Asia when he was writing this. 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:40.320 But I found this quote and it happened to be 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:43.400 in the summer of this year, and I thought, you know, 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.920 what he's describing is also it's George Floyd, right, It's 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:48.719 it's things like the murder of George Floyd that we 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:51.680 saw with our own eyes and a human rights abuse 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:54.640 right here in the US. How do you think that 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:59.120 we can make sure that the empowering side of digital media, 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:03.199 for for true somehow can outweigh the misinformation that goes 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:04.800 on there? Is it just something that the social media 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:06.760 companies have to do? Do you think there are things 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:10.200 that we can do as as just ordinary consumers or 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.000 those of us who have bigger platforms on Twitter, what 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:15.400 can we do to make sure that that that part 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:17.520 of it right, that the shining light on what needs 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.400 to be seen outweighs all the noise and the misinformation 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:22.800 and the cruelty that's out there. Well, thank you for 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:25.840 bringing up George Floyd and the power of social media 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.960 in uh amplifying the message of Black Lives Matter and 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.320 so many activists who have spoken out for a long 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:38.280 time about what's been going on with police abuses, particularly 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:42.400 in the black community, brown community as well. Another example 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.040 of why social media is so important, being able to 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:47.960 tell these stories in a way that's not filtered by 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:51.280 the corporate media. Being able to tell these stories that 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:55.480 we've known we're real in our communities for a long time, 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.160 but we didn't have the proof because we didn't all 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:00.800 have you know, cameras on our phone owns. Back we 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.280 didn't even have phones back in the time with mobile 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:04.640 phones back in the time, and a lot of this 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.640 stuff was happening. But now we're able to document these things. 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:10.600 And I don't like watching these videos. In fact, I 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:12.760 avoid a lot of the videos because I just don't 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:16.720 like seeing so much black death and pain m broadcast 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.320 in such a ubiquitous way, but the fact that these 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:25.360 videos exist is important and it has moved the conversation, 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.160 and social media has spread messages that I think are 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:34.240 really important and uplifted the voices of activists whose voices 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.200 we need to be hearing. You mentioned something I really 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.680 want to explore with you, which is the kind of 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.520 one dimensional nature of what is often seen in the 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:47.720 Black experience death, injustice, harm, suffering. I think you've mentioned 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.560 your your recent album Bigger Love, not knowing of course 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.040 the context it was going to arrive in, but how 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.520 important it was to you that a broader experience be 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.600 represented as a black artist with the huge black following 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.680 and a huge multiracial following. What do you think it 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.360 takes two? On one hand, you know, do the right 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.160 thing and make clear that you know what these experiences 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.120 of pain are, and at the same time also do 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:14.760 the right thing and make sure that the black experience 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.120 is not reduced to injustice and suffering and pain, but 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:20.520 it is kind of amplified in all of its richness 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:25.680 and um, we experience the full range of human emotion, 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.800 and we want to express that in our We experience love, 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:35.600 we romance, joy, questioning, inspiration Black people and I think 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:39.800 all people I want to see those images as well, 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.240 and not just images of us being in pain, us 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:46.000 being treated unfairly. I think it's important for us to 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.680 also show the range of our experience in this country 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:54.600 and around the world, UH, show the richness of our 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.480 culture and and put that on display for the whole 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.320 world to see. And not only is it the right 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.360 thing to do, but it's also been I think proven 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:07.080 to be commercially viable that we're showing the range of 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:11.960 our experiences and that UH and that representing UH these 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:16.640 underrepresented minority groups in this country, UM actually sells well 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:20.520 to Hollywood is I think learned that lesson recently in 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.840 the past few years, and it's been better for the 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.040 creative community, but also better for our audience that they're 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:31.360 seeing a wider range of images and stories and more 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.280 voices are being heard than ever before. Part of it, 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.000 I think is kind of a fortunate consequence of just 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:42.360 the sheer breadth of entertainment opportunities that you know, with 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:47.160 with Netflix and Apple TV and HBO, Max and Peacock, 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:51.000 there's so many outlets for entertainment, which means there's a 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:55.080 lot of demand for storytellers. As an audience member, is 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.960 cool to just be open open to the idea that 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:00.080 you can get a look into a different culture or 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.160 from your own, learn something, be entertained by it, connect 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.919 with it in some way that universal and very human, 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.840 and hopefully everyone opens themself up to that, because you'll 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.440 be richly entertained if you open yourself up to that. Uh. 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:15.960 I mean, you know, I've been watching The Queen's Gambit. 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:18.480 I have nothing in common with the girl from the 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:21.800 Queen's Gambit, but it's very entertaining and it's very like 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:26.879 interesting to see a subculture that I'm not a part of, 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.960 but the stakes are interesting, the humanity of the person 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:33.119 is interesting, and I can connect to the person on 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.320 an emotional level. So you mentioned something else a few times. 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.520 You mentioned the kind of business side of this, and 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.119 and you know the commercial structures around the media, what 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:43.920 it can pick up, what it suppresses. Sometimes, when I 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:46.360 was getting ready for our conversation, one thing I did 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.639 not know that we had in common was working for 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.679 two or three years in consulting before into something we 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.480 were more passionate about. Do you think your brief time 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.600 in consulting and in that that kind of corporate world 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.880 shape the way you think about how corporate forces now 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:07.120 influence what's going on in the creative space. Well, I mean, 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.040 I feel like I learned a lot when I was 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:12.560 at BCG. I worked at BCG. I know you worked 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:16.840 at mackenzie and Uh. I applied to McKenzie, got one interview, 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.119 but did not get the job there. I plied BCG 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.080 and didn't get a job there. So there we go. 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:29.480 But both of those firms, obviously, UM, they recruit from 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:33.680 top schools around the country, and they are places where 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:37.000 you interact with a lot of other smart people, UM 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:40.200 learn about things that you may have never even thought 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:44.000 about before, and have access to a lot of the 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.880 top boardrooms in the country, whether it's corporate or nonprofit. 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:51.280 And I did a little bit of both. I felt 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:53.840 like it was a valuable experience. UM. I didn't want 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:55.240 to do that for the rest of my life. I 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:57.640 knew that music was the most important thing for me 0:18:57.840 --> 0:18:59.760 and something I was really good at and wanted to 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:04.600 do professionally. But I felt like my time at BCG 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.320 taught me quite a bit about how the business world works, 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.640 and I think it made the transition to me interacting 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:14.159 with my record label and all the other business aspects 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.919 of the entertainment business. It made it easier for me 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.080 to make that transition and represent myself in a way 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.359 where I was able to advocate for myself in the 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:26.600 right way and understand what was going on outside of 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:44.600 the creative side of things. Now, you also have a 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:50.440 lot of organizational experience in building advocacy and nonprofit organizations 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:52.800 like Free America. Can you share a little bit about 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:55.560 how that came about and and what the future is 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:57.280 of the work that you've been doing around the criminal 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.760 legal system. Yeah, so we found did Free America a 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.720 few years ago. I don't know if people remember my 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:06.840 Oscar speech, but I went up on the stage when 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:10.359 we won uh An Oscar for writing Glory for the 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:12.720 film Selma. I went up on the stage. I talked 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.600 about us being the most incarcerated country in the world, 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.000 and that there were more black men under correctional control 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:23.320 now than who were in enslaved in the eighteen fifty 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:25.720 A lot of people were shocked when I said those 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:27.760 things because they didn't even know that that was true, 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:30.600 and it wasn't being talked about so much during that time. 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:33.800 But since then, obviously a lot more attention has been 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:38.280 paid to mass incarceration. We've seen a film by the 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:42.440 director of selma Aba du Vernet, a film called The Thirteen. 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.879 We've seen a lot of people on both sides of 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:51.399 the political spectrum advocating for changes in our prison system, 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.920 in our criminal justice system. We've seen people going as 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:57.600 far as saying we should abolish prisons, abolished the police, 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:01.359 uh two. On the other into the spectrum, at least 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:06.600 reform these institutions and and reduced our use of these institutions. 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.760 All of these conversations have been had, and I feel 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.359 like we at Free America were on the forefront of 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:18.320 making those conversations more amplified, more salient, more part of 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:23.320 the broader national conversation. And we did it because we 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:26.560 recognized that it was a major issue. I was inspired 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:30.960 personally by reading The New Gym, Crow and other books 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:34.440 about this issue. I was inspired by my own experiences 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:38.120 having family members who were in prison, in local jails, 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:40.440 caught up in the system in one way or the other, 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:43.280 and just growing up black in America. You just see 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:49.439 how much prisons, jails, policing effects our everyday existence. And 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.240 that's why we've been on the forefront of trying to 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:58.359 make really significant UM change in those institutions. And when 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:00.919 we started Free America, we started just by listening. We 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:03.520 went around the country, talked to stakeholders. We talked to 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:06.920 people who were still in prison, people who had been 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:11.439 incarcerated formally and had returned to society. We talked to 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:15.200 district attorneys, We talked to UH state legislators, We talked 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:19.119 to corrections officers, all kinds of people who had experience 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:23.080 in the system and understood what was going wrong and 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:25.399 and and had done some thinking about how to change it. 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:28.840 Once we had kind of done our rounds of really 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:32.480 listening and talking to folks, we started advocating for certain 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:38.200 policy changes. We we got with UH some Texas Justice advocates, 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:43.000 some California advocates, some Louisiana advocates, some Florida advocates, and 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:47.280 UH joined with them to advocate for changes that were 0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:51.600 enacted by legislatures, changes that were enacted by ballot propositions, 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:55.199 changes that were acted by governors when it came to 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:59.639 things like clemency and commutations. We've gotten involved in trying 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:05.400 to make tangible policy change around the country and We've 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:11.120 also gotten involved with educating the public around the role 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:13.720 of district attorneys. We got with the a c l 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:17.480 U to do a Know Your d a campaign where 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:21.560