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Speaker 1: we're excited. What I want to do is a long
Speaker 1: distance grandparent podcast, because I grew up with grandparents in
Speaker 1: the home. Head A Shapan was a producer on Mr.
Speaker 1: Rogers Neighborhood. She has a story she likes to tell
Speaker 1: about her grandkids. When I babysit for my grandchildren in Chicago,
Speaker 1: when the phone rings, they both scream out, don't answer it,
Speaker 1: don't answer it. It might be a telemarketer. Don't answer,
Speaker 1: don't answer it might be a telemarketer. With this fervor
Speaker 1: and terror almost so, one day, the four and a
Speaker 1: half year old came to me and she said, Grandma,
Speaker 1: I never asked this question before, but I really want
Speaker 1: to know what happens if you do answer it and
Speaker 1: it's a telemarketer. She said, do the police come. This
Speaker 1: is a phenomenal world we live in, and it's very complicated.
Speaker 1: To a young child. There's so many things that kids
Speaker 1: just don't understand, and that's why they ask why all
Speaker 1: the time, why the street lights turn red, why water
Speaker 1: goes down the drain, where someone goes when they leave
Speaker 1: the room, or whether they will even come back. Kids
Speaker 1: fill that void with wonder, sometimes with magical ideas, and
Speaker 1: sometimes they fill that void with monsters and with fear.
Speaker 1: There's a quote from Mr rogers favorite book, The Little Prince.
Speaker 1: What is essential is invisible to the eye. Fred spent
Speaker 1: his whole life learning how to see the invisible insides
Speaker 1: of children in his audience, learning about that essential thing,
Speaker 1: how kids make sense of the world, how we all
Speaker 1: make sense of the world. Fred understood that childhood is
Speaker 1: the essence of who we become, and these things that
Speaker 1: we work on in our childhood and the way we
Speaker 1: resolve them stay with us through our lives. I'm Carvel
Speaker 1: Wallace and this is Finding Fred, a podcast about Fred
Speaker 1: Rogers from I Heart Media and Fatherly in partnership with
Speaker 1: Transmitter Media. For years, for centuries, maybe we didn't know
Speaker 1: much about children. They were assumed to be like tiny
Speaker 1: adults who just did some discipline, some training to grow
Speaker 1: up and be well mannered people. But after World War Two,
Speaker 1: a new field of research emerged, child development, and with
Speaker 1: it the revolutionary idea that kids aren't simply blank slates
Speaker 1: waiting to be stamped with ideas and personalities. People started
Speaker 1: to understand that kids are constantly sampling the world around
Speaker 1: them and assembling an identity a way of being in
Speaker 1: the world. Because the important question is not so much
Speaker 1: what can we give children onto them, what can we
Speaker 1: produce for them? The really important question is what are
Speaker 1: they bringing to us. For more than fifty years, Head
Speaker 1: to Sharepan has worked with the production company founded by
Speaker 1: Fred Rogers in Pittsburgh. What's fascinating is that Pittsburgh was
Speaker 1: such a hub for understanding early childhood as the beginning
Speaker 1: of the journey to adulthood. In the nineteen fifties, the
Speaker 1: University of Pittsburgh was home to pioneering work in field
Speaker 1: of child development. Eric Erickson, who coined the term identity crisis,
Speaker 1: was a professor there. He was among the first psychologists
Speaker 1: to take seriously the inner lives of children. Benjamin Spock
Speaker 1: was also there for much of the twentieth century. His
Speaker 1: book on Children was the second best selling work after
Speaker 1: the Bible. But then there was doctor Margaret McFarland, not
Speaker 1: as well known as the other two, but perhaps the
Speaker 1: most gifted of them all. Ericson himself once said that
Speaker 1: quote she knew more than anyone in this world about
Speaker 1: families with young children. It was Margaret McFarland that Fred
Speaker 1: Rogers chose as his mentor. I was a student of
Speaker 1: Margaret McFarlane's in grad school, and one thing she would
Speaker 1: do was tell stories. She would give us the context
Speaker 1: for things. She would talk about a child who was
Speaker 1: sad because his mother had to go out and he
Speaker 1: was left with the babysitter, and he sulked for a
Speaker 1: while and cried. But then what he did was he
Speaker 1: got up into her rocking chair and he took a
Speaker 1: magazine and sat there with it in his hands. It
Speaker 1: was even upside down, but that's what she would do.
Speaker 1: It was as if he needed to recreate her and
Speaker 1: have her with him so that he wouldn't miss her
Speaker 1: so much. One of the beauties of Fred's work with
Speaker 1: Margaret is that, and with all of us, is that
Speaker 1: she would help us see the things that were beyond
Speaker 1: our eyes. Fred met Dr McFarland in the nineteen fifties,
Speaker 1: he took her graduate level child development classes at the
Speaker 1: University of Pittsburgh. Later, when he was making television, he
Speaker 1: encouraged had to Sherepin to do the same. They were
Speaker 1: taping at night, so it worked out with my schedule.
Speaker 1: In the daytime, I was learning this complex our development theory,
Speaker 1: and at night I would come into the control room
Speaker 1: and I would see Fred live out all the things
Speaker 1: I was learning about. How do you help children with aggression?
Speaker 1: What do you do with the mad that you feel?
Speaker 1: Ritual transitions? He says, we are going to go now
Speaker 1: into it's time for the neighbor to make but he
Speaker 1: led us to the next step, separation. Separation anxiety was
Speaker 1: a kind of recurring theme on Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. Fred
Speaker 1: found all sorts of ways to talk with kids about
Speaker 1: that scariest thing, being abandoned. Oh really, sorry, Daniel, are
Speaker 1: you I can see by your face that you really sad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it feels so awful to get forgotten. I know, why
Speaker 1: did you forget me? Yeah? I was hurrying around so much.
Speaker 1: I just wasn't thinking straight. Has that ever happened to you?
Speaker 1: What somebody forgetting you? Yes? It has. Oh, could you
Speaker 1: tell me about it. Well, it was my birthday party
Speaker 1: and my very best friend forgot to come to my party.
Speaker 1: She did. I waited and waited for her to come
Speaker 1: to the door with a present, and what happened. She
Speaker 1: was gone to her grandmother's house. I couldn't even get
Speaker 1: her on the telephone. Was she mad at you? No,
Speaker 1: she just forgot. Could you tell me again why you
Speaker 1: didn't come for me one more time? I forgot? I know.
Speaker 1: There are over nine hundred episodes of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood,
Speaker 1: and each week Fred would walk down the street script
Speaker 1: in hand to Dr McFarland's office. I can remember one
Speaker 1: time when I wrote something about bees and she said, well,
Speaker 1: do you know what bees mean to young children? Betsy
Speaker 1: Siemens worked on Fred's show in the nineteen seventies. She
Speaker 1: told me that Margaret McFarland helped them make a show
Speaker 1: that spoke right to kids experience. She's, well, you know,
Speaker 1: they if they sting you, you know, it has to
Speaker 1: do with body integrity, and they you know, it's a violation.
Speaker 1: And she wouldn't say don't use bees. She's just saying,
Speaker 1: if we're going to have bees, we have to deal
Speaker 1: with bees. You have to understand the implications. You have
Speaker 1: to understand what that's about from this magical world that
Speaker 1: we have hard time accessing, you know. But she had
Speaker 1: full access, She had a passport right into that world,
Speaker 1: and she could go there all the time. Margaret could
Speaker 1: go there all the time, and she opened the door
Speaker 1: for Fred, and Fred he held the door open for
Speaker 1: the rest of the neighborhood. And one of the things
Speaker 1: I always understood from Fred that um, until basically children
Speaker 1: lose their milk teeth as you you know, like surround six,
Speaker 1: they live in a magical world. And so I think
Speaker 1: his thing was to to listen so hard and to
Speaker 1: think so hard about how someone who lives in another world,
Speaker 1: literally in a magical world where where there's little men
Speaker 1: up in the street lights that are making them turn
Speaker 1: different colors, it's hard to access that child and hard
Speaker 1: to communicate with that child. What a special assignment that
Speaker 1: is to try to get access to that magical world.
Speaker 1: And Mr Rogers neighborhood. Fred brought kids magical worlds to life.
Speaker 1: The neighborhood of make Believe was a place where puppets
Speaker 1: were in charge, wars could be solved with balloons, where
Speaker 1: a striped tiger named Daniel lived in a clock. Are
Speaker 1: you ready for the Neighborhood of Make Belief? Okay, here's
Speaker 1: the trolley. Make the trolley come right around the castle.
Speaker 1: And think of the Neighborhood of Make Belie. I mean,
Speaker 1: and you tell you yea, yeah, really worried Mima Daniel?
Speaker 1: You know, I think Daniel has been coughing ever since yesterday.
Speaker 1: The trip to Make Believe could be playful and full
Speaker 1: of wonder, but it could also be a safe place
Speaker 1: where kids could encounter their fears and figure out how
Speaker 1: to deal with them. Betsy told me that the Land
Speaker 1: of Make Belief segments were the most carefully made parts
Speaker 1: of the show. I would go to Margaret before I
Speaker 1: ever wrote out dialogue for the neighbor to Make Believe,
Speaker 1: and then she would talk to me about the implications.
Speaker 1: There would be a through line in the Neighborhood of
Speaker 1: Make Believe, like a little soap opera. And on Monday
Speaker 1: something happens and then trouble. I mean, I'm thinking of
Speaker 1: a week where Daniel got left behind. Lady Everland forgot
Speaker 1: to take him somewhere, and and and he was left alone.
Speaker 1: Could you tell me again why you didn't come for
Speaker 1: me one more time? I forgot? I know. Does it
Speaker 1: make you feel like we aren't really friends? Kind of
Speaker 1: but I don't know why, but not really. No, we're friends, Daniel, Yes,
Speaker 1: it seems like we just are. I'm still so sorry.
Speaker 1: I'm not as sad as I was before before you
Speaker 1: came and talked to me. M oh good. The stories
Speaker 1: in the Land of Make Believe, we're reinforced by things
Speaker 1: that happened in the rest of the show. In Mr
Speaker 1: Rogers House, in the real life neighborhood, the opening reality
Speaker 1: of the program, we deal with the stuff that dreams
Speaker 1: are made of, and then in the Neighborhood of make Believe,
Speaker 1: we deal with it as if it were a dream.
Speaker 1: And then when it comes back to me, we deal
Speaker 1: with the simple interpretation of the dream. Anything can happen
Speaker 1: and make believe and we can talk about anything in reality.
Speaker 1: One of Fred's favorite sayings was if it is mentionable,
Speaker 1: it is manageable. The quote is from Margaret McFarland. She,
Speaker 1: like Fred, believed that this is the real value of
Speaker 1: TV for kids. Communication. It is less a show for
Speaker 1: children and more real communication with him and That's the
Speaker 1: only way I understand that is that to the child,
Speaker 1: the television program between you and the child is a
Speaker 1: real relationship, and that you were speaking to the child.
Speaker 1: As soon as the television artist becomes a child before
Speaker 1: the screen, then the adult child relationship is lost. Mr
Speaker 1: Rogers Neighborhood did more than entertained kids. Margaret and Fred
Speaker 1: listened carefully to children and then made a show that
Speaker 1: spoke to them, that helped them make sense of the world,
Speaker 1: that lovingly showed them how to be in the world.
Speaker 1: But needless to say, that is not how most of
Speaker 1: children's television turned out. More after the break. Teething can
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Speaker 1: When I was a parenting advice columnist for Slate, one
Speaker 1: question we always got from parents was about how to
Speaker 1: protect kids. From media and from all the bad things
Speaker 1: they might find on YouTube in the Internet. For a
Speaker 1: lot of us, this fear leads to a suspicion of
Speaker 1: maybe even an outright panic about media and technology, because
Speaker 1: it does feel next to impossible to figure out how
Speaker 1: to shield your kids when so much stuff is flying
Speaker 1: at them. But that feeling of threat is not new. Television,
Speaker 1: in terms of children's TV started nationally in with Howdy
Speaker 1: Dooty and it couldn't be more manic. David B. And
Speaker 1: Cooley is a long time TV critic. Some of the
Speaker 1: characters were more violent, were more rowdy. We can't play
Speaker 1: you any of the footage from those early days of
Speaker 1: TV because it is all astronomically expensive, even seventy plus
Speaker 1: years later. But the show's basically sounded like this, kids,
Speaker 1: tell your parents you want Oval Team, Tutsie Rolls, Twinkies, Coldgate, toothpaste,
Speaker 1: Wonder Brad, shoes and hats and toys and Whirlpool dryers.
Speaker 1: The children who were in the TV studio were called
Speaker 1: the Peanut Gallery, and they were all amped up on
Speaker 1: sugar products and it was a crazy place, and it
Speaker 1: was hugely promotional in terms of pushing products for the
Speaker 1: Kids to Buy a catalog had twenty four pages filled
Speaker 1: with products licensed by how to Duty alone. It included
Speaker 1: puppets and toys, clothing, cereals, and candies. There are those
Speaker 1: people who sometimes say the television doesn't affect us all
Speaker 1: that much, while all I can say is, then why
Speaker 1: would advertisers pay so much money to put their messages
Speaker 1: on a medium that doesn't affect us all that much?
Speaker 1: In Fred Rogers came home to the trope from his
Speaker 1: college in Florida. He discovered that his parents owned one
Speaker 1: of the roost TVs in town. His first reaction was curiosity.
Speaker 1: His next, as best we can tell, was discussed. It
Speaker 1: was a program where people were dressed up in some
Speaker 1: kinds of costumes or something and they were they literally
Speaker 1: were putting pious in each other's faces on it. I
Speaker 1: was astounded at that, and I thought this could be
Speaker 1: a wonderful tool for education. Why is it being used
Speaker 1: this way? And so I said to my parents, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think i'll go to seminary right away. I
Speaker 1: think maybe i'll go into television. And I said, but
Speaker 1: you've never even seen it, And I said, well, I've
Speaker 1: seen enough of it here I just thought, Hey, let's
Speaker 1: see what we can do with this. He was a
Speaker 1: music major who was getting up to go to theological seminary,
Speaker 1: and suddenly he was shipping off to NBC in New
Speaker 1: York to make TV. He starts making connections, climbing the ladder.
Speaker 1: He's making it in New York City, and then Pittsburgh calls.
Speaker 1: Not only was Pittsburgh a hub for studying child development
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, it was also one of the
Speaker 1: most innovative places in the country for technology, R and D.
Speaker 1: It was the home to Alcoa Westinghouse, the forerunner of
Speaker 1: what became Carnegie Mellon University, and early in the decade,
Speaker 1: the city's mayor had his own technological eureka moment. He
Speaker 1: dreamed up the idea of a community funded, non commercial,
Speaker 1: educational public television station. In that dream became a reality,
Speaker 1: w q e D, the first such public TV station
Speaker 1: in the country. I told some of my friends at
Speaker 1: NBC that I thought that I'd put my name in
Speaker 1: and apply for the station. They said, you are nuts.
Speaker 1: That place isn't even on the air yet, and you're
Speaker 1: in line to be a producer or a director or anything.
Speaker 1: You want to be here, and I said, now I
Speaker 1: have I have the feeling that educational television might might be,
Speaker 1: at least for me, the way of the future. And
Speaker 1: I applied and was one of the first I think
Speaker 1: one of the first six to be hired at w
Speaker 1: q e D, which true, it wasn't on the air yet.
Speaker 1: We didn't go on the air until April first of
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four. Fred was part of a new show
Speaker 1: called The Children's Corner. Fred wasn't the host, that was
Speaker 1: a local actor named Josie Ry, but it was present
Speaker 1: in every scene, composing and playing the music and performing
Speaker 1: with some very familiar puppets. I'd like everybody to meet
Speaker 1: a very very good friend of mine, a tame tiger
Speaker 1: is not wild? Was ready? Yes, stand up say, I'd
Speaker 1: like you to meet my friend, Daniel F Tiger. Do
Speaker 1: you do. One of my very earliest TV memories is
Speaker 1: I remember Children's Corner. It was just a local TV
Speaker 1: show in Pittsburgh, but it was captivating then because of
Speaker 1: how sweet it was and how different from everything else
Speaker 1: on TV. It was quiet, it was it was laid back,
Speaker 1: and it took its time. A few years and a
Speaker 1: few more puppets. Later, Fred was center stage on camera.
Speaker 1: From the very beginning, Fred stood apart from his on
Speaker 1: air peers, he wasn't pandering to kids. He wasn't selling
Speaker 1: them toys or candy. He was using his complex understanding
Speaker 1: of child psychology to create a real relationship with his audience.
Speaker 1: He understood the value of repetition for young viewers. He
Speaker 1: understood the value of structure to offer the same sort
Speaker 1: of elements over and over again. He understood slow pacing
Speaker 1: and which is not the same thing as being boring,
Speaker 1: but it's just taking your time. Television is an exceedingly
Speaker 1: personal medium. It reflects the story back to us whatever
Speaker 1: we happened to be watching. We bring our own story
Speaker 1: to the screen, and so consequently it's it's like a dialogue.
Speaker 1: I do feel that what we see and hear on
Speaker 1: the screen is part of who we become. After World
Speaker 1: War Two, a television boom hit the US. In a
Speaker 1: couple of years before Fred Rogers started making programs, fewer
Speaker 1: than a million households in the US had a TV.
Speaker 1: But two decades later, in nineteen sixty nine, when Fred
Speaker 1: rogers neighborhood was a year old, there were forty four
Speaker 1: millions such households. Advertisers got more aggressive. This flashy new
Speaker 1: medium could make people feel sweeping emotions and then sell
Speaker 1: them on toys and gadgets, maybe even on ideas. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: to attract new audiences to sell more stuff, shows got
Speaker 1: louder and faster and more violent. During the sixties, you
Speaker 1: see a wave of growing violence and unrest in the world,
Speaker 1: assassinations and uprisings, and people wanted to know whether TV
Speaker 1: was playing a role in this escalating mess. One such
Speaker 1: person was John pass Story. By nineteen sixty nine, he
Speaker 1: had served as the governor of Rhode Island and was
Speaker 1: now a sitting senator. President Nixon was leaning on Congress
Speaker 1: to shrink its funding to public broadcasting, and past Story
Speaker 1: was skeptical about whether there was anything worth salvaging in TV.
Speaker 1: A small delegation of public broadcasters was called to Washington
Speaker 1: to advocate for and defend the medium in front of
Speaker 1: Senator pas Story. Fred Rogers was among them. Head A
Speaker 1: Sheapan was working with Fred by this time and recalls
Speaker 1: how invested he was in reaching past Story with his
Speaker 1: finely crafted message. Fred worked long and hard on his speeches,
Speaker 1: revision and revision revision. So when I heard the Senator
Speaker 1: past Story, who was the head of the Communications Committee,
Speaker 1: said I don't want anyone to read their speeches any
Speaker 1: I'm tired of hearing people read. Just tell me what
Speaker 1: you want, I thought, Oh, good luck. Fred past Story
Speaker 1: had sat through two days worth of testimony, mostly people
Speaker 1: reading prepared statements focused on the dollars and cents involved
Speaker 1: in cutting public TV's budget. He barks that he's not
Speaker 1: interested in anymore reading Senator past Story, this is a
Speaker 1: philosophical statement and would take about ten minutes to read,
Speaker 1: so I'll not do that. My first children. Make you
Speaker 1: happy if you read it, I'd just like to talk
Speaker 1: about it if I'm very much concerned, as I know
Speaker 1: you are, about what's being delivered to our children in
Speaker 1: this country. I read an article about Senator past Story
Speaker 1: that he was really troubled by the violence on television,
Speaker 1: and I have a sense that Fred did his homework
Speaker 1: and understood that that was something important to him. Because
Speaker 1: Fred was like that, he wanted to know who his
Speaker 1: audience was. He wanted to know who you are so
Speaker 1: that he could relate in most meaningful, relevant kind of way.
Speaker 1: I give an expression of care every day to each
Speaker 1: child to help him realize that he is unique. I
Speaker 1: am the program by saying, you've made this day a
Speaker 1: special day by just your being you. There's no person
Speaker 1: in the whole world like you, and I like you
Speaker 1: just the way you are. Well, I'm supposed to be
Speaker 1: a pretty tough guy, and this is the first time
Speaker 1: I've had goose bumps for the last two days. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm grateful not only for your goose bumps, but for
Speaker 1: your interest in in our kind of communication. Fred spoke
Speaker 1: from the heart, with passion, with clarity. It's not just
Speaker 1: to influence someone, it's to help them feel something. That's
Speaker 1: what will help you take it in. I think it's
Speaker 1: wonderful that if it evokes something in you, I think
Speaker 1: it's wonderful. It looks like you're just doing the twenty
Speaker 1: million dollars. Fred always quoted the Little Prince, what is
Speaker 1: essential is invisible to the eye. The full quote from
Speaker 1: the book, however, is it is only with the heart
Speaker 1: that one can see rightly what is essential is invisible
Speaker 1: to the eye. Sometimes the most important feelings we have,
Speaker 1: the most essential ones, are the quiet, nearly invisible ones,
Speaker 1: the tiny feeling of regret that nags at us when
Speaker 1: we think we might be hurting someone, the small tingle
Speaker 1: we feel when we see something that we love, and
Speaker 1: maybe when we are children, these feelings are louder in us,
Speaker 1: more intense. But the thing is, as children, we don't
Speaker 1: yet know which feelings are to be ignored, like the
Speaker 1: fear that the police will come if the telemarketers call,
Speaker 1: and which ones are important, like the feeling that someone
Speaker 1: trust maybe trying to hurt you. We count on the
Speaker 1: adults in our lives to help us sort that out
Speaker 1: as we grow. So what happens when the adults who
Speaker 1: are teaching us are themselves unable to listen with the heart,
Speaker 1: when they don't pay attention to how we're feeling or
Speaker 1: what we need. What happens when adults can't help us
Speaker 1: because their lives are too busy or too loud, or
Speaker 1: too full of fear. When we're left alone with feelings
Speaker 1: we don't understand or know what to do with. What
Speaker 1: kind of world does that make for all of us?
Speaker 1: And what kind of world could we have if we
Speaker 1: were better at listening to those quiet cues from children,
Speaker 1: especially the kids that still live somewhere inside us. Next time,
Speaker 1: if you're vulnerable on camera, and if you let people
Speaker 1: know when you don't know, or if you let people
Speaker 1: see you break, or if you let people see you
Speaker 1: like sweat like, then they connect with you on a
Speaker 1: human level. Finding Fred is produced by Transmitter Media. The
Speaker 1: team is Dan O'donnald, Jordan Bailey, and Maddie Foley. Our
Speaker 1: editor is Sarah Nicks. The executive producer for Transmitter Media
Speaker 1: is Greta Cohn. Executive producers at Fatherly are Simon Isaacs
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