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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where Azy Fudd

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Speaker 1: and kk Arnold better start putting Gino in their tiktoks

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Speaker 1: old Man's got moves. It's Tuesday, March thirty, first Happy

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Speaker 1: trans Day of visibility. On today's show, we're joined by

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Speaker 1: a dynamic duo, Rio Eveleth, writer and creator of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Tested, and Sydney Bauer, a journalist who focuses on sports, health, culture,

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Speaker 1: and LGBTQ issues. We talk about the International Olympic Committee

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Speaker 1: reinstating genetic testing for female competitors, the history of gender

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Speaker 1: testing in sports, the effects of the IOC's policy on

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Speaker 1: trans athletes and athletes with differences of sex development, and more. Also,

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Speaker 1: we'll celebrate trans joy with former soccer player turned host

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Speaker 1: and speaker Phish.

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Speaker 2: Plus the Fleet are in, the Faves are down, Bad,

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Speaker 2: and two times twenty six point two.

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Speaker 1: It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices.

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Speaker 1: Here's what you need to know today. Starting with college hoops,

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Speaker 1: we're recording this before the buzzer sounds on the final

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Speaker 1: Elite Eight games, so we'll do our recap and look

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Speaker 1: ahead to the final four in tomorrow. Show to hockey

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Speaker 1: and a busy weekend in the PWHL, marked.

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Speaker 2: By the return of two superstars.

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Speaker 1: First, on Saturday, the Minnesota Frost welcomed back captain Kendall Coinschofield,

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Speaker 1: who had been out since the Milan Courtina Olympics on

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Speaker 1: long term injury reserve. She had two assists in her

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Speaker 1: return to the ice, but her Frost fell to the

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Speaker 1: visiting Boston Fleet four to three. Friend of the Show

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Speaker 1: Aaron Frankel had the day off, so Boston relied on

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Speaker 1: rookie goaltender Amanda Teey, who stopped twenty one of twenty

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Speaker 1: three shots in her PWHL debut, helping the team clinch

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Speaker 1: a spot in the playoffs. On Sunday, we saw the

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Speaker 1: return of Seattle Torrent captain Hillary Knight, who had also

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Speaker 1: been on long term injury reserves since the Olympics. Her

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Speaker 1: Torrent fell to the Ottawa Charge two to one. More

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Speaker 1: PWHL Saturday saw the league's first game broadcast in the

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Speaker 1: US on national television, a three to one Montreal Victoire

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Speaker 1: victory the New York Sirens in front of a takeover

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Speaker 1: tour crowd of just under sixteen thousand in Detroit. But

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Speaker 1: that won't be the last time you can catch the

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Speaker 1: PWHL on TV.

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Speaker 2: Here in the States.

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Speaker 1: The league has announced that the Walter Cup Finals will

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Speaker 1: be on national linear TV in the US for the

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Speaker 1: first time in PWHL history.

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Speaker 2: This year.

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Speaker 1: The agreement with Script Sports will put the best of

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Speaker 1: five series on Ion, making it accessible to one hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty six million American households. The finals are not

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Speaker 1: till May, but never too early to get those watch

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Speaker 1: party plans going to the NWSL, where a bunch of

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Speaker 1: heavy hitters are struggling to find their footing at the

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Speaker 1: start of the season, including the Kansas City Current. They

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Speaker 1: lost to the Portland Thorns on Saturday to nil, marking

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Speaker 1: their third loss in four matches this season.

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Speaker 2: The Thorns walked away not.

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Speaker 1: Only with the w but also a new record for

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Speaker 1: Olivia Moultrie, who scored in the fifty third minute and

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Speaker 1: at twenty years old, became the youngest player in NWSL

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Speaker 1: history to reach twenty career goals. Defending champions Gotham FC

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Speaker 1: are also sitting on just one win so far this season.

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Speaker 1: On Sunday, they played through a Lando Pride to a

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Speaker 1: draw on nil nil and most shocking, maybe championship runners

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Speaker 1: up the last two seasons. The Washington Spirit remain winless

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Speaker 1: after that nil nil draw on the Summits record breaking

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Speaker 1: home opener. Meantime, Angel CITYFC or at the top of

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Speaker 1: the NWSL table with the perfect three oh to o record,

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Speaker 1: just like we all drew it up.

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Speaker 2: Right to golf where he owed you.

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Speaker 1: Kim and Nelly Korda went one two for a second

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Speaker 1: straight week. Kim took a two shot victory in the

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Speaker 1: Ford Championship on Sunday, a week after taking the top

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Speaker 1: spot in the Founders Cup. Both players are off to

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Speaker 1: a hot start. It's the first set of back to

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Speaker 1: back wins in Kim's career, and in three starts this year,

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Speaker 1: Korda has won once and twice been runner up. To

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Speaker 1: The London Marathon, the world's largest race, may get even bigger.

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Speaker 1: London Marathon organizers are considering staging next year's event across

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Speaker 1: two days to enable more people to take part. According

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Speaker 1: to The Guardian, that could mean one hundred thousand runners

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Speaker 1: over the course of a weekend.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Marathons in general have seen a huge rise in popularity

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Speaker 1: since the pandemic, and the London Marathon is perhaps the

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Speaker 1: epicenter of that growth. There were a record breaking fifty six,

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Speaker 1: six hundred and forty finishers at the twenty twenty five race,

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Speaker 1: and a record one point one million people applied for

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Speaker 1: a chance to run in this year's edition. So I

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Speaker 1: mean I need to ask all these people, are y'all okay, Bianka,

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Speaker 1: you did this running for a very long time thing, right?

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Speaker 3: Is it worth the trouble? Running a marathon is definitely

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Speaker 3: worth the trouble. I recommend everybody at least try out

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Speaker 3: pushing their distance, but I am not for pushing the

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Speaker 3: London Marathon into two days. We should go and run

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Speaker 3: our local races and support the local organizing that's happening

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Speaker 3: at a city near you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you don't get into the final cut,

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Speaker 1: just go grab a pint instead, challenge your body in

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Speaker 1: other ways.

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Speaker 3: I'll meet you there, all right.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a break when we come back

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Speaker 1: a game of Olympic Whack a Mole, with Rio Evelett

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Speaker 1: and Sydney Bauer.

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Speaker 2: Joining us for a triumphant return visit.

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Speaker 1: They're a writer, producer and artist and the creator and

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Speaker 1: host of the fantastic audio documentary series Tested from CBC

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Speaker 1: and NPR. A Peabody Emmy and Eisder nominee co founder

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Speaker 1: of the Coyote Media Collective.

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Speaker 2: They lift weights and make sculptures. It's Rio Evelyth.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Rio, thanks for having me back. I wish I

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Speaker 4: was here to talk about something better.

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Speaker 1: I know sometime we'll just have you on to shoot

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Speaker 1: the shit one day. Yeah, yeah, also with us. She's

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Speaker 1: a journalist and communication strategist who's covered topics including sports, health, culture,

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Speaker 1: and LGBTQ plus issues for outlets including Reuter's, NBC News,

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Speaker 1: ABC News, HuffPost, Cosmopolitan, and more. An Emery grad Rower

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Speaker 1: and cursed forever due to our New York Mets fandom.

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Speaker 2: It's Sydney Bauer. Hi, Sydney.

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Speaker 5: Hey, it's almost April. It's the best time to be

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Speaker 5: a Mets fan.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I'm also a Mets fan. My gosh, you're like

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Speaker 4: riding high in Mets fandom right now, both of you.

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Speaker 5: I know.

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Speaker 4: I'm so sorry you're overwhelmed.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 1: One of the few teams I can lord my Cubs

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Speaker 1: fandom over and say it's.

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Speaker 2: Still better over here. Uh, very few.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you both for joining me for what's short

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Speaker 1: of bey not nearly enough time to dig into all

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Speaker 1: that's going on in the world of trans inclusion in sport,

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Speaker 1: Olympic sex testing, and just the general decay of humanity.

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Speaker 2: But we're going to do our best.

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Speaker 1: I want to start with the new International Olympic Committee policy,

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Speaker 1: which requires that every single woman who competes in the

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Speaker 1: female category in every sport at the Games will have

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Speaker 1: to undergo a one time genetic test via saliva, cheek

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Speaker 1: swab or blood sample. The test is looking for what's

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Speaker 1: called the srygene, typically on the Y chromosome.

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Speaker 2: The IOC says that if an athlete has the.

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Speaker 1: Srygene, then they're considered to have experienced male sex development

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Speaker 1: and are therefore banned from the female category. So the

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Speaker 1: outcome of this new policy is that all trans women

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Speaker 1: will be banned from female categories, many athletes with differences

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Speaker 1: of sex development will be banned, and every single woman

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Speaker 1: who wants to compete will be subjected to a test

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Speaker 1: to determine if she is indeed, in the eyes of

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Speaker 1: the IOC, a real woman. Of course, according to medical

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Speaker 1: asperts and geneticis including the scientists who actually discovered the

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Speaker 1: sry gene, the existence of the gene proving that one

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Speaker 1: has experienced male sex development and enjoys its potential benefits.

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Speaker 1: Is far too simplistic of a take. So let's start there. Rio,

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Speaker 1: tell me what you know about this. Why do experts

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Speaker 1: say that.

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Speaker 2: This sry gene alone is not a reliable tool.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so the srygene lives on the Y chromosome. If

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Speaker 4: it is functioning normally and everything kind of goes as average, right,

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Speaker 4: it then stimulates this cascade of genes that turn on

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Speaker 4: that develop testes that then create testosterone.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 4: And so what the IOC is saying is that if

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Speaker 4: you have this gene, then therefore you definitely have all

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Speaker 4: the testosterone, and your body definitely receives it and does

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Speaker 4: stuff with it, and you become this incredibly potent potential

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Speaker 4: athlete biological male, as I like to say, which is

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Speaker 4: not really a term that experts in any other field

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Speaker 4: of medicine or science would use. It's sort of an

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Speaker 4: invented term for this conversation. The problem is that for

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Speaker 4: some people the srygene doesn't work. It does work, but

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Speaker 4: only kind of it works, But the testes that develop

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Speaker 4: don't develop properly. They do develop properly, but the body

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Speaker 4: can't receive or sort of process testosterone. Sometimes it can,

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Speaker 4: but only some tissues can use the testosterone and not others.

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Speaker 4: Biology is really messy. This idea that there are two categories, right,

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Speaker 4: male and female just does not hold up. And so

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Speaker 4: any test that tries to pin this sort of binary

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Speaker 4: down is just inherently going to fail. You just cannot

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Speaker 4: succeed at this task. And so they have moved towards

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Speaker 4: the gene thing away from testosterone, which is what we

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Speaker 4: had been talking about for the last ten to fifteen years,

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Speaker 4: in part because it feels, i think a little cleaner

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Speaker 4: for people and it feels a little more obvious in

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Speaker 4: terms of, oh, it's a genetic test, so it's got

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Speaker 4: to be right. But of course that's not unfortunately or

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Speaker 4: fortunately how biology works, depending on how you think about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it ignores literal decades of science that have disproved

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Speaker 1: the theory that it's a simple xxxy situation. So all

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Speaker 1: it tells you is if the gene is present, not

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Speaker 1: whether it's actually doing any of the things that the

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Speaker 1: gene would do that might cause you to consider. So

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Speaker 1: someone differently abled or potentially differently abled in sport as

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Speaker 1: a result of being quote unquote a man. You know, Sidney,

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Speaker 1: you've covered trans athletes and the intersection of LGBTQ rits

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Speaker 1: in sport for a very long time. How did it

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Speaker 1: hit you when this new IOC policy was announced?

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Speaker 6: It felt inevitable, like these are all political decisions, and

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Speaker 6: having covered the IOC since like London twenty twelve, you

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Speaker 6: kind of see the way political winds are going, the

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Speaker 6: way decisions are being queued up. The way that they

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Speaker 6: work essentially is there are committees that make decisions.

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Speaker 5: They have concentric rings of decisions.

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Speaker 6: If you know what the inner circle is doing or

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Speaker 6: what they're telegraphing, you can kind of see ahead of

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Speaker 6: time what's coming down the pipe. Yeah, and that's where

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Speaker 6: this came from.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're going to get to later how this

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Speaker 1: will create circles around both Olympic participation and then going

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Speaker 1: out from there all the way down to youth sports.

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Speaker 1: But before we get to that, I do want to

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Speaker 1: get to sort of like the specifics of how we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about who this affects and rio. A

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Speaker 1: lot of time when we have conversations like this, they

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Speaker 1: get muddied by a lack of.

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Speaker 2: Clarity around the words that we're using.

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Speaker 1: So let's ensure that everyone listening really is on the

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Speaker 1: same page, starting with an explanation of the differences between DSD,

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Speaker 1: intersex and trans.

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Speaker 2: Can you help with that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting. I've seen so much of the coverage

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Speaker 4: around this IOC band be like IOC bands trans athletes,

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Speaker 4: and that is accurate but sort of incomplete. So you

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Speaker 4: have trans women and specifically trans women, right. The IOC

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Speaker 4: is sort of uninterested in transmen as a category. They

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Speaker 4: just sort of don't really address that. Trans women, people

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Speaker 4: who are maybe assigned male at birth and now live

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Speaker 4: as women, are women. And then you have this other,

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Speaker 4: sort of more complicated category of what the IOC and

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Speaker 4: other sporting bodies called DSD athletes differences of sex development.

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Speaker 4: This is a very sort of contested term. Some athletes

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Speaker 4: are fine with it, some athletes hate it. It sort

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Speaker 4: of medicalizes something that doesn't necessarily need to be medicalized.

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Speaker 4: Some of these women have these sort of conditions and

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Speaker 4: they would never know. They've lived their whole lives. They're fine,

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Speaker 4: they don't need medical treatment or help. Some of those

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Speaker 4: athletes may identify as intersex, but some of them don't.

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Speaker 4: Many of them don't. Intersex is sort of more of

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Speaker 4: an identity term like queer, where you kind of opt

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Speaker 4: into it, do you kind of choose that for yourself

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Speaker 4: more and more now, And many of these athletes who

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Speaker 4: are impacted by this are like, No, I'm a sis woman,

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Speaker 4: I was designed female births. I live my whole life

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Speaker 4: as a woman. I am a woman. Like all of

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Speaker 4: these labels that are being applied to me kind of

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Speaker 4: are against my will, frankly, and have nothing to do

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Speaker 4: with my lived experience, except for when the IOC shows

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Speaker 4: up and says, surprise, you don't get to be in

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Speaker 4: this category anymore.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I want to talk about that rio because

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Speaker 1: per the IOC, a person can have a vagina, ovaries, breasts,

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Speaker 1: has lived their entire life as a female, but who

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Speaker 1: has discovered to have the SRY gene And then they say,

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Speaker 1: is not a biological female and is in fact a

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Speaker 1: man and would compete in the male category. So can

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Speaker 1: you help me understand how science categorizes the biology of

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Speaker 1: folks with differences of sex development.

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Speaker 4: Oh, it's hard to answer, because there science is this

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Speaker 4: like big morass, right, you know. One of the things

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Speaker 4: I think the IO and other governing bodies do actually

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Speaker 4: a sort of nefariously good job of is saying no, no, no,

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Speaker 4: we are listening to the science, right. We are the

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Speaker 4: ones who are you know, following the science. And the

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Speaker 4: science is very clear, right, Coventry says in her press conference,

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Speaker 4: the science is very clear. Science is not very clear.

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Speaker 4: Just to make sure that that's said out loud. But

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Speaker 4: if you sort of do this redefining of terms, inventing

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Speaker 4: terms like biological mail and sort of every policy you'll

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Speaker 4: see has this definition list at the very end where

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Speaker 4: they are creating their own set of definitions. That when

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Speaker 4: you talk to most medical experts, most people who study

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Speaker 4: this outside of the realm of sports, would look at

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Speaker 4: and be like, what, That's not a term we would

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Speaker 4: ever use. That's not a phrase we would ever use.

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Speaker 4: And I think you know, broadly, medical science recognizes that

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Speaker 4: there is a lot of variation between the sexes.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: I think more and more of the general public is

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Speaker 4: aware that gender is this spectrum. And in fact, even

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Speaker 4: the IOC says, of course, yes, we totally understand gender

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Speaker 4: is a spectrum. We would never ever tell somebody what

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Speaker 4: their gender is. However, we would tell someone what.

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Speaker 2: Their sex is because that is.

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Speaker 4: Very clear and simple and scientific, and of course it's

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Speaker 4: not right. Science has this broad spectrum. There's a lot

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Speaker 4: of really interesting medical research around this and sort of

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Speaker 4: biology research around this that just human bodies come in

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Speaker 4: all sorts of configurations, and this makes sense when you

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Speaker 4: think about your experience. I'm sure each person listening to

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Speaker 4: this knows somebody who has kind of a weird medical thing,

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Speaker 4: a body that does something kind of funky. Right now.

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Speaker 4: We know this in all other contexts, but for some reason,

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Speaker 4: we're so locked in on sex being simple when we

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Speaker 4: all know that that can't possibly be the case. But

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Speaker 4: it's really hard to unlearn that.

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Speaker 1: I think well, and I do think people are uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: with being told something that they thought they understood forever

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Speaker 1: is different than what it was, especially if that means

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Speaker 1: confusing gender along with sex, because we're so predisposed to

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Speaker 1: assign people to a spot in society so we can,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, paid them less or not elect them

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Speaker 1: for president for whatever reason. But I think Sidney like

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Speaker 1: this is a great point, Like if basic education around

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Speaker 1: these complexities and sex and gender were was a little

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Speaker 1: more common, we could move the needle. I mean It's

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Speaker 1: not simple, right, There's a lot of still new science

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Speaker 1: coming out, even this srygene was just discovered in nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like even just opening up conversation could

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Speaker 1: be really helpful, right.

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Speaker 5: I always like to say this is a political decision,

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Speaker 5: because the way they're defining new things is a political

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Speaker 5: definition for things. And ultimately you have sport, which existed

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Speaker 5: for so long as just men defined by the men

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Speaker 5: in charge can play sport that when people fought for

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Speaker 5: really hard earned rights to get the opportunity to play

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Speaker 5: alongside this, you know, it created this new category which

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Speaker 5: is a super important fight and one that keeps happening

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Speaker 5: and like should never be diminished. But at the end

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Speaker 5: of the day, like all it did was create two

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Speaker 5: categories for sport. And there's so many more categories of

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Speaker 5: human existing, so many more categories of just how people

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Speaker 5: fit in in life, and the IOC wants to thread

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Speaker 5: this needle between this is how we organize sports, This

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Speaker 5: is how people pay us a lot of money to

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Speaker 5: organize sports. This is how everyone on Earth tries to

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Speaker 5: tune in to watch how we organize sports. So we

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Speaker 5: need to fit everything into this definition because it works

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Speaker 5: because we've said it works, because you show up and

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Speaker 5: you watch and you agree it works. So we have

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Speaker 5: to make this work, which is why they continue to

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Speaker 5: do this the way that they are, which was when

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Speaker 5: they let trans women in two thousand and three come

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Speaker 5: to the Olympics, they said, great, you know, get your surgery,

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Speaker 5: do whatever the definition of a transsexuality was back then,

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Speaker 5: we will let you in. You fit into our rules.

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Speaker 5: You come to play, you play by our rules. Then

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Speaker 5: they realize their rules didn't work. So for thirteen years

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Speaker 5: they dealt with athletes asking for more rights. They dealt

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Speaker 5: with lots of it's happening behind the scenes, which is

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Speaker 5: why ahead of Rio twenty sixteen, they came up with

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Speaker 5: their new Consensus Statement, which was as it was a

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Speaker 5: consensus statement, this wasn't something that was hard fast defined

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Speaker 5: A versus b X versus Y, so on and so forth.

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Speaker 5: They said, this is the best we can do to

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Speaker 5: fit you guys in, and people said, great, I think

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Speaker 5: we can do a little bit better. And they try

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Speaker 5: and push that for another five years and got the

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Speaker 5: last frameworking Consensus Statement, which broadened the idea of fairness

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Speaker 5: and inclusion, which is a line created by pr officials

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Speaker 5: to fit into everything, and here we are. So it's

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Speaker 5: I don't even know if more education would work. It's

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Speaker 5: the IOC has a way they do things, and they

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Speaker 5: want to make everything fit into that box. Except reality

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Speaker 5: does not fit in that box.

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Speaker 1: Right, I mean we're ultimately bumping up against Sports are

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Speaker 1: usually binary and human biology is not. So how do

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Speaker 1: we do our best within the constraints of that reality?

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Speaker 2: So real?

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Speaker 1: We had you on back in twenty twenty four and

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Speaker 1: we talked about your fantastic show Tested. Everyone should go

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Speaker 1: listen to that episode and Torio's podcast in general. We'll

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Speaker 1: actually link both of those in the show, so people

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Speaker 1: want to check them out because I think they're both

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Speaker 1: worth listening too. So I don't want to rehash too

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Speaker 1: much of what we discussed last time, but I do

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Speaker 1: want you to explain why this so called gender testing

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Speaker 1: at the Olympics isn't new and is actually a recurring

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Speaker 1: sort of whack a mole nightmare that dates back a

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Speaker 1: whole century.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, like Sydney mentioned, right, like, as soon

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Speaker 4: as women saw the Olympics really kind of becoming a thing,

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Speaker 4: they said, I want to do that, right, I want

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Speaker 4: to compete. I want to run, I want to play,

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Speaker 4: And the men were like, oh no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 4: we did not account for this. This was not something

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Speaker 4: they counted for. And they worked really hard and they

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Speaker 4: succeeded right at getting into the Olympics. And as soon

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Speaker 4: as women start competing in the Olympics, and in particular,

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Speaker 4: as soon as women start competing in sports that are

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Speaker 4: seen as masculine and at the time, right that's really

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Speaker 4: track and feel the scene sort of interestingly as the

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Speaker 4: most masculine sport at the time. As soon as women

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Speaker 4: start running on the track, you start to hear all

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Speaker 4: of these questions, is that really a woman? It can't

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Speaker 4: possibly be women, because women, real women wouldn't want to

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Speaker 4: do this, Real women would not compete like this, Real

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Speaker 4: women wouldn't make these gruesome faces as they are like

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Speaker 4: pushing their bodies right to the brink. And so immediately

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Speaker 4: you have questions, is that a wo Is that a woman?

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Speaker 4: Is that a woman? They of course largely center around

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Speaker 4: women who are from certain parts of the world. Right,

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Speaker 4: you have a Japanese runner who is immediately challenged, you

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Speaker 4: have an Eastern European runner who's immediately challenged, and at

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Speaker 4: the time, there's no real policy at the very beginning,

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Speaker 4: because it's kind of just like a little bit of backdoor.

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Speaker 4: You know, there have been these rumors we took her

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Speaker 4: to back and checked, right, which is like, what is that?

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Speaker 4: I mean, when you think about that for more than

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Speaker 4: a second, you're like, what does that even mean? In

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Speaker 4: nineteen thirty six is the first sex testing policy. And

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Speaker 4: so this has been this ongoing question of, oh, these

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Speaker 4: women are so masculine, they don't look right, they don't

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Speaker 4: seem right. So even as you know, we celebrate women

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Speaker 4: in sports and women's sports history and look how these

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Speaker 4: great trailblazers and now right, the IOC looks back and

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Speaker 4: celebrates these women even though at the time they were

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Speaker 4: policing them and they continue to police them to this day. Right,

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Speaker 4: And so it's just this ongoing question of trying to

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Speaker 4: find the thing that divides those two categories, and the

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Speaker 4: sort of target is always slightly moving, But the underlying

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Speaker 4: question is the same as you say, we have organized

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Speaker 4: sports in a binary way. Human bodies do not fit that.

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Speaker 4: There's always going to be somebody stuck in the middle,

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Speaker 4: and those people always suffer.

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Speaker 1: And we've seen plenty of examples of people who do

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Speaker 1: fit in the binary and are still accused of not

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Speaker 1: fitting because of societal expectations for women what they should

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Speaker 1: look like, how they should behave, and how they should perform.

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Speaker 1: And we are constantly capping female excellence while marveling at

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Speaker 1: male excellence as we continue to expand the record books

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Speaker 1: for them, which is obviously always a part of this

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Speaker 1: conversation too. So after thirty years of folks in science

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Speaker 1: and medicine pushing back, pushing back, pushing back, finally, in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, sex testing ends at the Olympics, we

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Speaker 1: get about a decade of peace. Ish, it wasn't perfect,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't this bad. Along comes Castor Samanya, South

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Speaker 1: African middle distance runner who wins the two thousand and

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Speaker 1: nine World Championships and reignites these conversations about regulating women's

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Speaker 1: bodies and pointing and saying that's not a woman. This

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Speaker 1: time it comes about in the form of testosterone testing.

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Speaker 1: So rio, this new sex testing is intended to ensure that,

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Speaker 1: as the policy says, quote, eligibility for any female category

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Speaker 1: is limited to biological females.

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Speaker 2: They used to say that was based on testosterone.

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Speaker 1: Now they're telling us it's the sry gene. Goodness, how

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Speaker 1: did we get back to this after years of deciding

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Speaker 1: this wasn't it?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I mean I think there's a couple of things. One,

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Speaker 4: testosterone was always going to be a really difficult moving target, Right,

437
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,320
Speaker 4: what is the upper cap? How much testosterone is someone

438
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 4: allowed to have?

439
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 5: Right?

440
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,320
Speaker 4: You have these women like Christine Boma, like you know

441
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,240
Speaker 4: Caster Semenya, who have naturally higher levels of testosterone. But

442
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,920
Speaker 4: then you end up backing yourself into a corner if

443
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,920
Speaker 4: you are the IOC or World Athletics or any of

444
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,120
Speaker 4: these governing bodies where you have to define like how

445
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,360
Speaker 4: much testosterone a woman is allowed to have, And that's

446
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,919
Speaker 4: just like a really tricky position to put yourself in.

447
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,359
Speaker 4: And it also means that if you do that, which

448
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,639
Speaker 4: some places did, like World Athletics, you then say to athletes, Okay,

449
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 4: if you want to compete in the women's category, you

450
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 4: have to take medication to change your biology, right and

451
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 4: to suppress the testosterone. And some athletes did, right, Christine

452
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,479
Speaker 4: Bouma did that. There are other athletes who did that.

453
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 4: They said, look, I want to compete if this is

454
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 4: what I have to do to compete. I will take

455
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 4: these drugs, I will suffer the side effects, I will

456
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 4: do it. And so that opens I think up a

457
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 4: real big question around medical ethics and asking these women

458
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,679
Speaker 4: to medicate themselves, take medicine they do not need, and

459
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 4: that it's medically dangerous for them just because they need

460
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 4: want to compete in the Olympics, not because they have

461
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 4: gender dysphoria, not because they have any medical reason to

462
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,880
Speaker 4: do so, purely to compete, and that is a legally

463
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,439
Speaker 4: precarious and ethically precarious place to be. And so I

464
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,120
Speaker 4: think that one of the reasons they've moved to genetic

465
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 4: screening is that it takes away some of that murkiness. Again,

466
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 4: it just feels clean to people. Yes, xx x Y,

467
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 4: I learned that in high school biology. Bang bang boom,

468
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 4: We're done here. I don't have to think more about it.

469
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 4: Let's move on.

470
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you've been in contact with the athletes that

471
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,880
Speaker 1: you talked about for tested several DSD athletes in particular,

472
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,440
Speaker 1: who not only had life altering and health altering hormone

473
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 1: therapies but also invasive surgeries, one of whom didn't know

474
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 1: when she said yes that she would be getting actual

475
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 1: surgery in order to comply with those testosterone tests. Now

476
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: all for naught, right, none of them will be able

477
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 1: to compete.

478
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's over for them.

479
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 1: This is it after all that saving up the money

480
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 1: for it, going through the physical and mental challenges of

481
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: doing that, and then now they've just changed the rule

482
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 1: and they're not able to compete because they have a

483
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 1: gene that, according to the guy who discovered it, doesn't

484
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 1: necessarily mean anything about how they're competing. And what's fascinating

485
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: is how many other athletes, as to this point, might

486
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 1: have also had that gene but just been an average competitor,

487
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 1: not good enough for anyone to point to or notice.

488
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 1: Who might now test with this new policy and discover

489
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,199
Speaker 1: and be eliminated? And won't that be interesting when they

490
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,719
Speaker 1: discover that it's not the very very best who are

491
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,119
Speaker 1: getting an advantage, it's just everyone across all parts of sport,

492
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,920
Speaker 1: just like women can be good and not so good.

493
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: And ah, it's so messy.

494
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 4: And we know this happens, right, We know this happens

495
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 4: because from the sixties through the nineties they did a

496
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 4: test like this and every Olympic Games about eight ish

497
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 4: six to ten women would show up to the Games,

498
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 4: get tested and be told surprised, you have Y chromosomal

499
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 4: material in yourselves. You have to leave, you cannot compete.

500
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 4: I mean, we don't know all of them. A lot

501
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 4: of the time it was quiet. They were told to

502
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 4: fake an injury. Some of them literally put on a

503
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 4: fake cast to try to like not make it clear,

504
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,199
Speaker 4: because otherwise, why else are you leaving? Right, So we

505
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 4: don't know all of them, but we do know some

506
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 4: of their names, and we know that they were not

507
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 4: dominant in their field like they I mean, they made

508
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 4: it to the Olympics, right, they are incredible athletes, but

509
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 4: these are not people who are sweeping the podium, right.

510
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 4: It is not always the case. And even in the

511
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 4: case of Castor and others, there is no woman in

512
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 4: this sort of DSD category right now who holds a

513
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 4: world record at all. Castor does not have the world record.

514
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 4: People speak about her as if she's this like credible,

515
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 4: unbeatable athlete. She doesn't even have the world record for

516
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 4: distances like you know, I don't know. It makes me insane.

517
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: We got to take a quick break more with Sydney

518
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: and Rio after this, speaking of Castor, you know, Castor

519
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: took medication for years.

520
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:21,880
Speaker 2: And one thing that she.

521
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: Writes about in her book, The Race to Be Myself,

522
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 1: is that she learned that she was born with DSD

523
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: in the media at the same time as the public did,

524
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 1: and critics of raceed privacy concerns about the IOC's new policy.

525
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 1: You know, I just said there are plenty of women

526
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: across plenty of sports who have spent their entire lives

527
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 1: and will take this test and be told something that

528
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: is life altering, not just for their participation, but also

529
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: publicly socially in terms of many countries where it's actually

530
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: dangerous to be told this, Sidney, What could the consequences

531
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: and the impacts be if an athlete finds out about

532
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: personal information via this test and if it then becomes public.

533
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 6: The idea that none of this is going to get

534
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 6: leaked is it's absolutely a farce and terrifying. I mean,

535
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 6: if you think about the type of presses that do

536
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 6: investigate reporting into this type of stuff, like the one

537
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 6: that comes to mind is the British press to me,

538
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 6: and they are ruthless with what they will dig up,

539
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 6: and they are ruthless in they have very strict libel laws,

540
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 6: so if they get things through into print, they are

541
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,360
Speaker 6: sure they're not going to get any legal backlash. Athletes

542
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 6: who have been talking about this forever had their personal

543
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 6: information leaked to the media reporters who they're covering this

544
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 6: in the mindset of, well, there's rule breaking going on,

545
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 6: you know, ethically, it's newsworthy. Sometimes I wonder, like what

546
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 6: I would have done if someone handed me a Manila

547
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 6: folder and said, the biggest eight hundred meter runner in

548
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 6: the world is going to be caught up in legal

549
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 6: drama over her status. Like, I don't know what I

550
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 6: would do now. I think I would handle it very

551
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 6: differently than I would in twenty eleven when I was

552
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 6: twenty years old. It's horrifying to think about, you know,

553
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 6: like that is the scoop of a lifetime for a journalist.

554
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 6: But also these are people's livelihoods, and it's going to

555
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 6: extend beyond sports.

556
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 5: You google someone that's going to.

557
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 6: Be in their headline they look for employment after they're

558
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 6: an athlete. Who knows what any employment officer is going

559
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 6: to do with this information, being like, oh, you know,

560
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 6: they're a woman in name only, But also I know

561
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 6: way too much about their medical information now, like that

562
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 6: is something that just scares the daylights out of me

563
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 6: because of it. Another thing that the IOC said in

564
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 6: its information was it wants to encourage national Olympic committees

565
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 6: and federations to test younger and younger people so that

566
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 6: they know early in life so they don't get put

567
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 6: into embarrassing, compromising situations later and on. So when I

568
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 6: read that, the headline I immediately saw was Britain leads

569
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,479
Speaker 6: out fifty young imposter girls from youth sports, never mentioning

570
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 6: any of them. But if you're one of those people

571
00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 6: that knew it, like that's in the back of your

572
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 6: mind the rest of your life.

573
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: Also, it's the problem with us prioritizing competition over humanity

574
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 1: at every level of sport. And there are a lot

575
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: of people whose parents have decided and whose doctors have

576
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: advised at a very young age it is not necessary.

577
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: To mention this.

578
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: This will never impact them in any meaningful way in life,

579
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 1: and the stigmas of it will be much more deleterious

580
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: to them than having this conversation. So this is their gender.

581
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: This is how they're going to live their lives, and

582
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,199
Speaker 1: that's great. There is no reason to test for that

583
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: on the off chance that that kid someday becomes an Olympian, right,

584
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: I mean the mess that that could cause. And we've

585
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 1: talked about this on our show before, but the idea

586
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: that we're placing faith in, particularly male coaches or administrators

587
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: at the youth level to properly handle quote unquote gender

588
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: investigations is insane to me. And it also encourages what

589
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: we're already seeing far too much across sport, which is

590
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: the pointing and the I don't think that kid's a girl,

591
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: that girl's too fast like Rio. The IOC's policy says, quote,

592
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: unless there is reason to believe that a negative reading

593
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: is an error, this will be a once in.

594
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: A lifetime test end quote.

595
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: Which, by the way, once in a lifetime sounds like,

596
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: you know, a trip to Disneyland with no one else there.

597
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: That's not my personal high but like that's the way

598
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: you'd hear that language. Not you get to take a

599
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: gender test. But I'm really focused on the unless there's

600
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 1: a reason to believe part because throughout history, so many

601
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: athletes have had their gender and appearance scrutinized by the

602
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: media and the public, and some of the earliest recorded

603
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: gender tests at the Olympics were due to people just saying, hey,

604
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: that's a man.

605
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 2: Go look at them.

606
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 1: Are you concerned that that clause could open up women

607
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: to further testing? Anytime someone says they quote have a

608
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: reason to believe the first one was inaccurate.

609
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 4: I think it's in both directions, right, So yes, as

610
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 4: you say, but also, let's say that you are an

611
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 4: athlete and you suddenly learn this via this test, you

612
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 4: might say, well, wait a minute, I don't have an

613
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 4: advantage because they open up for okay, if they have

614
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 4: one of the quote unquote rare DSDs right where you

615
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 4: are conferred no advantage, right, they kind of open it up.

616
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 7: Right.

617
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: It's androgen insensitive, is that right? Where basically it rejects

618
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: the ability for the end androgen. The test is the

619
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: testosterone everything to react in your body the way it

620
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: would and demand. So you have the gene, it doesn't

621
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: do anything. They can tell that by the specific kind

622
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: of DSD, and they are allowing those people to compete, yes,

623
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: sort of.

624
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 4: Right, so they say, you know, okay, if the athlete

625
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 4: has complete energen insensitivity, right, or in the words of

626
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,479
Speaker 4: what they say is quote another rare xy DSD that

627
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 4: precludes testosterones, anabolic and our performance enhancing effects. They do

628
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 4: not give a list of what those DSDs are. DSD

629
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 4: is a very broad category of lots of different things.

630
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 4: And so basically what this means is that if you

631
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:36,959
Speaker 4: are an athlete and you think, well, I don't think

632
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 4: I have an advantage, it is on you to find doctors,

633
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 4: pay for tests, go through this whole invasive process. It's

634
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 4: very hard to prove that you have complete androgen insensitivity.

635
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 4: But then where's the line. Okay, ten percent of my

636
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 4: cells can respond to testosterone? Is that actually an advantage

637
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 4: that we are going to really talk about and care about.

638
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 4: How do we tell? It's really hard actually to pin

639
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 4: these kinds of things down. And there will be athletes

640
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 4: who chase that because this is their dream, this is

641
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 4: what they've worked their whole lives for, and they're going

642
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 4: to spend a ton of money on experts and doctors

643
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 4: that they probably cannot afford with no support. I'm going

644
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 4: to guess from their you know, national Olympic committees and

645
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 4: sort of teams and stuff to try and chase this

646
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 4: impossible sort of always moving target around. No, No, I

647
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 4: should be allowed to compete.

648
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: Which is just what happened with so many of the

649
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: folks in your tested podcast who spent time and money

650
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,959
Speaker 1: to chase something that has now been changed. You know,

651
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: we know that the IOC will have sensitive medical data

652
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: about every single woman that wants to compete.

653
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 2: That feels very scary.

654
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 4: Not just the IOC International Federation, right, every little international

655
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 4: federation that has a podunk budget and two guys working

656
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 4: there now is going to have this information.

657
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: In certain countries where they literally will be unsafe because

658
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: there are some countries that associate being DSD with your sexuality,

659
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: even though they're unrelated with being trans.

660
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 2: Which is a completely different thing.

661
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: We saw what happened to a mon Khalif in boxing

662
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: at the Olympic, people falsely accusing her of being trands

663
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: because they don't understand the difference between gender testing and

664
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: identity and everything else. Like Also worth noting the guy

665
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,479
Speaker 1: who discovered srygene, Professor Sinclair said that these tests are

666
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: really sensitive, so a man lab technician could conduct the test,

667
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: accidentally contaminate it with just one skin cell, produce a

668
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: false positive SROY and if that's your one and done,

669
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: don't worry. It's a once in a lifetime that's it.

670
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: Congress again to your point, Now you're spending money to

671
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: fight it and to argue against it. And you know, Sidney,

672
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: there are countries that do not allow this type of testing,

673
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: so the IOC has to put in their policy. Don't worry,

674
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: We'll bring these athletes to another country where they are

675
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: allowed to do this, ignoring the fact that the country

676
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: that they lived and probably had a ban on this

677
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: for a very good reason. What do you make of

678
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: just all the complications to the cost of it, and

679
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: how they're regulating who's running the tests and how accurate

680
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: they are.

681
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 6: I mean, it really just goes to show that they

682
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 6: are trying to fit this like round peg in a

683
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 6: square hole, because they really do believe the Olympics or

684
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 6: this autonomous system completely on its own and deserves to

685
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 6: be policed by themselves without governments overseeing it. Essentially, it

686
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,479
Speaker 6: needs to be completely separate for it to work, and

687
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 6: like you said, there needs to be legal clauses to

688
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 6: protect themselves to do this.

689
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 5: At some point you have to go is this even

690
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 5: worth it? Yeah?

691
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: Well, I want to get back to why folks might

692
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: think it's worth it, But really quickly.

693
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 4: Rio.

694
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: I know we talked last time about the Court of

695
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: Arbitration for Sport actually demanded that the IOC do a

696
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: study into DSD versus CIS women athletes. And now they

697
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: have plenty of samples, maybe not a giant study, but enough,

698
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: and they haven't done it. How have they evaded that command?

699
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: And why do you think instead of being able to

700
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: provide proof that being DSD is inherently a benefit, they

701
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: instead are just creating rules to ban it.

702
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 4: This sounds going to sound terrible, but it's like almost

703
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 4: impressive the way they've managed to kind of twist this

704
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 4: idea of evidence around because I know, no, we have evidence, right,

705
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 4: because you know, I come from a science background, and

706
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 4: if you look at this from just totally science brain

707
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 4: blinders on for everything else, it's actually a fairly simple study. Right.

708
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 4: You take all your athletes who you say have this

709
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 4: sroygene and you know that, as the case of World

710
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 4: athletics for example, in general, that's a unknown question.

711
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 2: Because they started last year with this testing.

712
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, And then you compare their performance with those

713
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 4: who don't, and if your supposition here that they have

714
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 4: this advantage holds, you should be able to see that

715
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 4: very clearly, and World Athletics has the data to do this.

716
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 4: They've had the data to do this for a while,

717
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 4: they have never produced that study. And so that raises

718
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 4: questions for me. Now when you ask them about this,

719
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 4: if you say, hey, like, why have you not done this?

720
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 4: Why again, this is a fairly trivial, frankly study to do,

721
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 4: they will say, oh, athlete privacy, which I suddenly care about.

722
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 4: She hasn't been the case of the past. But then

723
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 4: they also say, and this is the bit of Nefario

724
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 4: sort of redefining the terms and kind of constantly twisting,

725
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 4: which is they say, oh, no, no, no, we don't need

726
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 4: to do that study. We have plenty of evidence already

727
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 4: because all of these women who have the sroygene are

728
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 4: functionally equivalent to CIS men. And all we have to

729
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 4: do is look at the data on CIS men compared

730
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 4: to SIS women and say, tatah thirteen ish percent, we

731
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 4: don't need to do the study because we are basically

732
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 4: redefining what these words mean. Now, if you ask anybody

733
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 4: who is an expert in the fields of intersex conditions, DSD,

734
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 4: et cetera, they would tell you that of course these

735
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 4: are not These bodies are not the same. We know

736
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 4: that if they were, they would just be sis. Me like,

737
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 4: this doesn't make any sense, but it is the way

738
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 4: they're doing it. And so they're saying, look at this

739
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 4: giant citation list. We have all of these sources that

740
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 4: show that the science says there is this unfair advantage,

741
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 4: but they're not actually comparing the populations that they are

742
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 4: then regulating.

743
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: Right, And the same goes for trans participation, because what

744
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: they do is they take elite CIS men and they

745
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: compare them to trans women who are not the same.

746
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: And in fact, so many studies are revealing that the

747
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 1: hormones and measures taken en route to becoming a transwoman

748
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: actually sometimes are a disadvantage by the time it's all

749
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: said and done. And yet again we're doing studies that

750
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: are not comparing the actual thing we're regulating, which is

751
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: so problematic. You know, Sidney, you mentioned whether it's worth it,

752
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: and I wonder do you think this policy from the

753
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: IOC is at its core, whether subconsciously or consciously, about

754
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: preventing trans women from participating and it just happens to

755
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: impact all women, or do you think this is with

756
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: intention a larger aim to police all women.

757
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 6: It's tough to say. I don't know if I could say,

758
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 6: because I'm not in the IOC. I think there are

759
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 6: people with vastly different politics at different levels of this.

760
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 6: I think there are a large people that day to

761
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 6: day really do believe in the mission of what they're doing,

762
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 6: and that's the mindset in which they approach this. I

763
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 6: think the IOC at the highest levels is about protecting

764
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 6: its brand and it wants there to be no challenge

765
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 6: to the idea that the Olympic Games are the greatest

766
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 6: sporting event in the world with the best athletes from

767
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 6: all over the world. Now it's not just the best athletes.

768
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 6: They truly believe that sports should be happening in every

769
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 6: single country at every single level, and they want to

770
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 6: pour money into that, redistribute what they get to allow

771
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 6: that to happen. That's why you have continental allocation spots

772
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 6: at the Olympics. It's like the World Cup. It's not

773
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 6: the best forty eight teams in soccer going there. It's

774
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 6: the best forty eight teams waited by continent that are

775
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 6: going to be there.

776
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 5: So that's their mission.

777
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 6: That's what they want to uphold, and I think on

778
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 6: some level they do believe this is probably the way

779
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 6: to politically approach this, which is how do we distribute

780
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 6: these resources in the most effective way and get the

781
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 6: people that we want to be there?

782
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: Well, So that's what I want to ask you, because

783
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 1: you mentioned political and the people we want to be there,

784
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: And that's the difference here, right, Like what does it

785
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: say about the general state of the world. The IOC

786
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: is introducing these policies now going back in time, reintroducing

787
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: policies that were already deemed dangerous, and doing it at

788
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: a time when persecution of trans people is a political

789
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: cudgel as opposed to because of a problem that is

790
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: emerging that they're trying to have an answer to. It feels,

791
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: as with most trans policy, a solution looking for a problem.

792
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: So that's why I ask, is the intention policing trans

793
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 1: people because that's the conversation that is drawing attention and

794
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: messing with their pr or are we back to probably

795
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: what was happening one hundred years ago when that was

796
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: just about like we don't want women to be manly.

797
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 5: I think it's a mix of both.

798
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 6: You look at the athletes that were most vocal against

799
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 6: castor Semena. Where were they all from? If you think

800
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 6: about it for a few seconds, you don't want to say,

801
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 6: all global North athletes, we're launching this crusade. But it's

802
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 6: curious that most of the people that were upset with

803
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 6: the RIO twenty sixteen final were from certain areas of

804
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 6: the world where the metal podiums were women who worked

805
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 6: really hard from a different area of the world, you know.

806
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,760
Speaker 6: I mean, I think this is something that the IOC

807
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 6: is an incredibly reactive body. I don't think they're being

808
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 6: proactive on this. I think that's not controversial to say

809
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 6: in any regard. I think it was not controversial to

810
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 6: say they were being reactive in twenty fifteen when they

811
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 6: came up with their consensive statement, because they were being

812
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 6: sued in Human rights court at the time, and I

813
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 6: think there was a government body that said, hey, you

814
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 6: don't have the autonomy you think you do, and your

815
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 6: own quasi legal setup is we have some jurisdiction over

816
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 6: it turns out, and that led to a lot of changes,

817
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,919
Speaker 6: and then that led to a lot of people mad

818
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 6: about those changes, which then led to a lot of

819
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,760
Speaker 6: crusading and people working to get into positions in different

820
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 6: bodies to come up with new policy, which is how

821
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 6: politics work. Like this is just politics. It's people trying

822
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 6: to control who gets to go to the starting line

823
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 6: because they want the opportunities to do so.

824
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: I want to dig down that because it will affect

825
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 1: policy going down to collejia high school youth probably turkey trots.

826
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 2: And fun runs.

827
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it affects me.

828
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just everyday folks who just want to participate.

829
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: And we had Chris Mosron to talk about the new

830
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: book Fair Game. According to that book, there are thirteen

831
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 1: times more proposed anti trans bills than out trans athletes.

832
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: That number goes up to eighty five times as many

833
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 1: bills when you're just talking about trans girls and women.

834
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 1: This is such a tiny percentage of the population that

835
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: is being targeted. And when you look at this policy

836
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: and how it will get down to the way that

837
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: it informs both what you mentioned earlier. Let's start testing

838
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: young girls at a younger age because they may one

839
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: day want to go at the Olympics to even who

840
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: gets to play. I want to know where we are

841
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 1: right now, Sydney in America when it comes to trans participation,

842
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: in sport because we've done this topic on our show

843
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: many times. But with Trump's executive order, with multiple recent

844
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: laws being passed, the landscape has changed significantly. So can

845
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: you give us sort of a broad view of what opportunity,

846
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: if there is any, looks like for trans athletes right now.

847
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 6: Depends on two things. It depends where you go to school,

848
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 6: and it depends are you an adult or are you

849
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 6: a child. Honestly, like in some Blue states, young trans

850
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 6: athletes have no barriers to playing, whether it be on

851
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 6: club teams or in their school teams. They can go

852
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 6: after school and join their local track team, which was

853
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 6: something that helped me so much in high school and

854
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 6: helped me so much in college when I got the

855
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 6: opportunity to keep pursuing sports and you know, help me

856
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 6: as an adult. But now I row like I get

857
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 6: up at five o'clock in the morning and I go

858
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 6: out on a lake when I have a chance to, Like,

859
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 6: I don't just coach it. I go out and I race.

860
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 6: It's fun because it gives me something to do and

861
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 6: keeps me motivated just in life and keeps going. I

862
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 6: told my local club, I don't know what the hell

863
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 6: I'm going to do this summer because the new policy

864
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 6: from the USOPC basically says I have to race in

865
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 6: what's known as an open division or in the men's division.

866
00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 6: And I have raced with seven other women and eight

867
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 6: the last two summers, and I can't in good conscience

868
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 6: tell them, Hey, we have to switch divisions because of me. Yeah,

869
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 6: doesn't matter how good I am, doesn't matter how many

870
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 6: times I show up to practice.

871
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: What is the level of this competition that they have

872
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: now trickled down to regulate.

873
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 6: Any Masters competition. I go to regatta's all the time.

874
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 6: I go to like five or six a year.

875
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 2: You know.

876
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 5: I race against people who like me, raced in college.

877
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:27,839
Speaker 5: Are keeping to do this? You know?

878
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 6: Are you know some of them don't have many opportunities,

879
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 6: so this is when they race with their club for fun.

880
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 6: And there are others who are like me where I

881
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 6: track my you know, six k times in my two

882
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 6: k times, trying to regain some past glory and you know,

883
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 6: feel like as close as I was when I was

884
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 6: like at club nationals. But it's fun because there are

885
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 6: people that take it very seriously at lower levels in

886
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 6: the United States as ospors. Yes, you can show up

887
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 6: and everyone's drinking beers in the parking lot after. But

888
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 6: at the same time, like I could race at a

889
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 6: level against people still training to be at the national

890
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 6: time level if I wanted to.

891
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 1: That's the point of sport is to find the part

892
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: of it that brings you joy, that keeps you moving,

893
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: that makes you healthy mentally and physically, that gives you

894
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: a community, that gives you goals that you can reach

895
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: for and try to compete at. And this, unfortunately, is

896
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: going to impact folks at every single level, whether they

897
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: want to show up and drink beer. We know somebody

898
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: who can't play in a beer league hockey because once

899
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: USA Hockey became the regulator of all hockey and that

900
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: allowed them some nice funding, they then also get to

901
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: regulate who gets to participate. And I think, unfortunately, this

902
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: policy is going to have way more wide reaching impacts

903
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: than anybody even knows yet.

904
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I mean, like the US is a case

905
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 6: that is kind of worse off than other countries.

906
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 1: Es because Trump congratulated Kirsty Coventry on her fine job

907
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 1: of leading the IOC.

908
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 5: And he basically pressured the USOPC to do it. They

909
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 5: didn't have to do this. This isn't a law.

910
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 6: It's not the law of the land, and it's not

911
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,720
Speaker 6: like the USOPC takes government money. We are the one

912
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 6: national Olympic committee that is much more disentangled from our

913
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 6: government than any other place on earth.

914
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting too that the last policy from the

915
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 1: IOC said we can't tell any federations exactly what to do,

916
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: and then this policy is like, we will tell them,

917
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,479
Speaker 1: and we are telling them. So somehow in the span

918
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: of the last policy and this one, they've changed their

919
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: mind about what they're capable and allowed to do when

920
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: it comes to regulating the federations of other countries.

921
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 2: It's such a mess.

922
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: We're so grateful that y'all came on to help us

923
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 1: try to sort of unpack a little bit off. I'm

924
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: sure there will be so many more conversations about this,

925
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: But the goal is to keep finding trans non binary

926
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: DSD athletes of every single kind and type coming together

927
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: to play sports, finding joy and taking up the space

928
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: they deserve as often and as many places as they can.

929
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: And the fight is just to continue allowing for that.

930
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: And it's a fight at the highest level now with

931
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: the IOC. Thank you both so much.

932
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 2: We could keep talking, but unfortunately I have kept you

933
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 2: far too long already.

934
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you. I want to just one I

935
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 4: may Yeah, I just feel like it is worth reading

936
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 4: a little bit of Castor's statement about this. There's a

937
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 4: longer statement that I encourage everybody to go read because

938
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 4: I think it's actually incredibly good and very cutting, especially

939
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 4: in regards to Coventry being a woman from Africa and

940
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 4: Caster being a one from Africa. So go see that out.

941
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 4: I just would like to potentially read the bit she said,

942
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 4: I have carried this weight, so have other women of

943
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 4: color who deserved better from sport. Reintroducing genetic screening is

944
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 4: not progress. It is walking backwards. This is just exclusion

945
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 4: with a new name. And I think that's like just

946
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 4: really spot on, and I wanted to give that context.

947
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right. It's just exclusion with the new name.

948
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: It was testosterone. Now it saysrhy and next time we'll

949
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: find something else as soon as we fight our way

950
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: back to the science and the medicine telling them this

951
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: ain't it. Well, thank you for that. I appreciate it.

952
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: Thanks again to Rio and Sydney for the smart conversation.

953
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: We have to take another break. When we return a

954
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: moment of joy and a triathlon team for the Ages.

955
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 2: Welcome back slices.

956
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 1: On this trans day of visibility, we of course want

957
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: to talk about policy and inclusion, but also how necessary

958
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: it is to shine a spotlight on the joy of

959
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: the trans experience and in the trans community.

960
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,240
Speaker 2: So I reached out to my friend to Uncle Fish.

961
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 2: What's up, friends?

962
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 7: This is Uncle Fish, a former professional footballer, current storyteller,

963
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 7: community coach and organizer. And also I'm trans and right now,

964
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,240
Speaker 7: when people talk about trans people in sports, it almost

965
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 7: always centers conflict, policy, debate, fear, and other people's opinions

966
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 7: about who should and shouldn't belong. But when I think

967
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 7: about my experience of being trans and women's sports, that's

968
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 7: not where my mind goes. I think about joy, trans

969
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 7: joy not as an idea, not as a headline, but

970
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,240
Speaker 7: as something I get to live, and I keep returning

971
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 7: to something. Adrian Murray Brown, one of my favorite visionaries,

972
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 7: writes about that we are in an imagination battle. I

973
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 7: feel that deeply because so much of how people I

974
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 7: talk to see bodies as shaped by fear, fear of difference,

975
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,879
Speaker 7: fear of what doesn't fit. Neatly into a box fear

976
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 7: of losing power, certainty, or control, and women's sports has

977
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 7: been one of the loudest places where that fear gets projected.

978
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 7: But what I've experienced in women's sports is something else Entirely.

979
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 7: I've experienced a different imagination, one rooted in love and

980
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 7: for me, transjoy looks like going out to coach every

981
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 7: Friday night with football for her, and knowing that her

982
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 7: is expansive, that it holds all girls, welcoming all gender

983
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 7: expansive youth.

984
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 2: It's looking out at.

985
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 7: A field full of youth ballers and realizing I get

986
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 7: to be someone who believes in them. I get to

987
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 7: be a part of what shapes their idea of what

988
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 7: the world can be. Transjoy feels like stepping onto fields

989
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 7: and into community multiple nights a week as I am

990
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 7: a pickup soccer attic and I play in inclusive communities

991
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 7: that welcome all bodies, all genders, all backgrounds, and yes

992
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 7: that includes his dudes. And when I change into whatever

993
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 7: jersey I'm repping that night, the scars across my chest

994
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 7: are not the focal point. No one's questioning me, no

995
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 7: one's dissecting me. I'm just a baller who gets high

996
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,439
Speaker 7: fives because my team is stoked that I'm playing with them.

997
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 7: I experienced trans joy every time I'm watching an individu

998
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 7: Cell game and see those big, beautiful, trans people belonged

999
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 7: banners held up by the supporter groups. I feel the

1000
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 7: love in them, and I always found myself wondering who

1001
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,720
Speaker 7: else is feeling that with me? What kid is watching

1002
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 7: and all of a sudden doesn't feel so alone? What

1003
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 7: adult is experiencing that same quiet exhale, that same soul

1004
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 7: hug and this transjoy that I experience as a part

1005
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 7: of women's sports is why I'm so passionate about growing

1006
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 7: and protecting it. Women's sports at its best has always

1007
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 7: been about more than a game. It's been about creating

1008
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 7: space where there wasn't any, building culture, where there was

1009
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 7: an infrastructure, making room for fuller expression, fuller humanity.

1010
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 2: It's been about love.

1011
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 7: Even when it wasn't always named that way. That's that's

1012
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 7: why I keep coming back to another line from Adrian

1013
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 7: Mariy Brown, who writes, pleasure activism is the work we

1014
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 7: do to reclaim our whole, happy, and satisfiable selves from

1015
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 7: the impacts, delusions, and limitations of oppression and or supremacy.

1016
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:16,760
Speaker 7: To me, that's what women's sports can be at its best,

1017
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 7: a reclamation and when trans people get to experience joy,

1018
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 7: belonging in a liveness in sport that doesn't just impact

1019
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 7: trans people, it expands what all of us believe is

1020
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 7: possible in our bodies, in our communities, and in the

1021
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 7: world we're imagining and building together. So if you're listening

1022
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 7: to this, my invitation isn't just to hear about my

1023
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 7: experience of transjoy.

1024
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 2: It's to feel it within yourself.

1025
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 7: To notice where joy shows up in your body, to

1026
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 7: notice where you feel most like yourself, To notice where

1027
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 7: love is already present, even in the small ways, because

1028
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 7: that's where it all starts. Transjoy is a part of

1029
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 7: the blueprint, and it's something I hope all of us

1030
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 7: get to feel.

1031
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: That was absolutely beautiful. Fish. Thank you. Go get fish to.

1032
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: Follow at True Underscore fish Tails on Instagram.

1033
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 2: We love that you're.

1034
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:08,879
Speaker 1: Listening, but we want you to get in the game

1035
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: every day too, So here's our good game play of

1036
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: the day. Send us a note. We love when you

1037
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: reach out, just like super Slice and good game. Chief

1038
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: Accessibility Officer Amanda Vaalo Amanda went to the record breaking

1039
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: Denver Summitt FC home opener and sent us her report,

1040
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: writing in part quote, the guest Services stadium staff was

1041
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 1: uber competent and pulled off a flawless limited mobility to

1042
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 1: wheelchair accessible with companion seat seat exchange.

1043
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 2: Good news.

1044
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: The accessibility seating was elevated high enough to allow for

1045
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: mostly unobstructed views.

1046
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 2: Bad news. This was not always reflected in my camera work.

1047
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: Good Game, Gary from Guest Services Good Game Supporter section

1048
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:50,479
Speaker 1: FU wheelchair accessibility allowing only one companion seat. What if,

1049
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: like Sarah, I had twenty friends end quote. You know

1050
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: I don't always travel in packs of twenty, but I

1051
00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 1: often do.

1052
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 2: Spain gang is deep, y'all.

1053
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: Thanks for the report, Amanda, can't wait to get out

1054
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 1: to Denver. We always love to hear from you, so

1055
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,240
Speaker 1: hit us up on email. Good Game at wondermediaetwork dot com,

1056
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,439
Speaker 1: or you can leave us a voicemail at eight seven two,

1057
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: two oh four, fifty seventy and slices. Don't forget to subscribe,

1058
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 1: rate and review. It's so easy. Watch Bianca do it.

1059
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 3: Team Iron trans Mask rating three out of three people

1060
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 3: who belong in Sports Review over the weekend. Three of

1061
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,399
Speaker 3: your favorite trans guys swam, biked, and ran their way

1062
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 3: through an iconic triathlon. The tri team was made of

1063
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 3: Skyler Baylor, the first trans men's athlete in NCAA D

1064
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 3: one sports, multidisciplinary artists, Cellaman, and marathon or Calikalamia. Skyler,

1065
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 3: who swam in college, took on the swimming leg. Cella

1066
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 3: was on the bike after getting seriously into cycling in

1067
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,720
Speaker 3: the past couple of years, and non binary marathon champion

1068
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,399
Speaker 3: Cal finished it out with the run. And the race

1069
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 3: was technically a half iron Man seventy point three miles

1070
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 3: in total in Oceanside, California, but instead of iron Man,

1071
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 3: they called their team Iron trans Mask, which is absolute perfection.

1072
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 3: In a group caption on Instagram, the three of them wrote,

1073
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 3: in part quote, when it dawned on us that each

1074
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 3: of us specialize in one of the three sports of

1075
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 3: the triathlon, we knew it to do. In a world

1076
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 3: that's increasingly hostile toward trans people with an undue emphasis

1077
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 3: on athletics, we came together to showcase trans excellence, trans collaboration,

1078
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 3: and trans joy. Surrounded by queer and deaf community. We

1079
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 3: earned our spot on the men's podium. We hope this

1080
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 3: moment will make more space for non binary athletes like

1081
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 3: Cella and Cal to compete beyond binary categories, and just

1082
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 3: as importantly, we grew closer to ourselves and each other.

1083
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:46,280
Speaker 2: End quote.

1084
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 3: We'll put a link to the Instagram post in the

1085
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 3: show notes. The photos are full of joy and all

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Speaker 3: three of those athletes are well worth a follow.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Bianca. All right, Slice is now It's your turn,

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Speaker 2: rate and review.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening Tomorrow, Good Game, Rio, Good Game, Sydney.

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Speaker 1: You orgs making policies that are directly in opposition to

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Speaker 1: the guidance of science and medicine. Good Game with Sarah

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Speaker 1: Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with

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Speaker 1: Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on

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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzi

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Speaker 1: and Bianca Hillier. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,

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Speaker 1: Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutterer,

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Speaker 1: Lucy Jones, Britney Martinez, and Gianna Palmer. Production assistants from

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Speaker 1: Avery Loftus and I'm your host, Sarah Spain