1 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: Diversion audio. 2 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 2: A note this episode contains mature content and descriptions of 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 2: violence that may be disturbing for some listeners. Please take 4 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 2: care and listening. Holly Dunn had been asking for a 5 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 2: mirror for days, and no one would give her one. 6 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 2: The last time she'd looked at herself, she was home 7 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: at the Kappa Sorority house, brushing her long blonde hair 8 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 2: and putting in her little silver hoops that felt like 9 00:00:52,920 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: a lifetime ago. She needed to see her face. Sister 10 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 2: Heather finally caved. She gave Holly a tiny, compact mirror, 11 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: the kind meant for applying blush or powder, the kind 12 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 2: that only lets you see one part of your face 13 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: at a time. Holly stared into the little piece of glass. 14 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 2: There was a girl looking back at her, but all 15 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 2: she could think was, how is that my face? Her 16 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 2: skin was bruised and scratched, etched with lines of dried blood. 17 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 2: Everything looked misshapen and strange, especially around the left eye socket, 18 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 2: which was so swollen she couldn't open her eye. It 19 00:01:54,040 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: wasn't her face, except it was. Someone had done this 20 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: to her, attacked her, violated her, He tried to kill her, 21 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 2: but Holly was still alive, and she wasn't going to 22 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 2: let him win. Welcome to the greatest true crime stories 23 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 2: ever told. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer. I'm a writer of 24 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 2: true crime. I'm constantly reading about crime, but I'm not 25 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 2: necessarily interested in the parts of the stories that make headlines. 26 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: Those tend to be bloody, dramatic moments. I'm more interested 27 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 2: in the people behind these moments and what we can 28 00:02:54,760 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 2: learn about society by looking at their experiences. That's what 29 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 2: I explore here. Every week. I dig into crimes where 30 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: a woman is not just a victim. She might be 31 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 2: the detective, the lawyer, the witness, the coroner, the criminal, or, 32 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 2: in the case of Holly, done a combination of those roles. 33 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 2: As you probably already know, women can do anything. Today's 34 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 2: episode we're calling I Survived a Serial Killer. It's about 35 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: a woman named Holly Dunn, who is the only known 36 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: survivor of the brutal, bloody crimes of the so called 37 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 2: Railroad Killer. You'll get to hear my conversation with Holly 38 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: herself at the end of this episode, but Holly's story 39 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: is also about what she did when she survived, how 40 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: she found strength, power, and how she showed up for 41 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: the showdown. Part of my college orientation was on how 42 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 2: to avoid predators. I'm not even joking. Upperclassmen put on 43 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: a skit of how to make sure no one slips 44 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 2: roofies in your solo cup, how to know if someone 45 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: was actually using a condom, what to do if you 46 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: wake up somewhere you've never seen before, where the emergency 47 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: outposts were on campus just in case. I remember thinking 48 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 2: at the time, Yes, this is good advice. I'm so 49 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 2: glad they told me, or I'd never have known any 50 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: of this. And then a few hours after the meeting, 51 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: I remember asking myself, why is it my job to 52 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 2: avoid horrible people? How is that fair? The answer is 53 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: it's not fair. The answer is sometimes you can't avoid predators, 54 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 2: and frankly, no one should have to, but we do 55 00:05:24,400 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 2: have to. Holly Dunn was from an affluent Indiana family, 56 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: but she wasn't from the kind of blue blooded privilege 57 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 2: that was dissociated from reality. The Duns had faced more 58 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 2: than their fair share of tragedy. Two of Holly's half siblings, 59 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 2: children from her father's first marriage, died young, one from 60 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 2: childhood pneumonia, the other Holly's adored big brother, Michael, died 61 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: in a car crash at age twenty three, but the 62 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 2: Duns were resilient. They leaned on one another and on 63 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: their church for support. Holly and her sister Heather were 64 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: extremely close. It was bittersweet for Holly to pack up 65 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 2: for college at the University of Kentucky in the autumn 66 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety five, but she knew she wouldn't be 67 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 2: gone for long. After her studies, she planned to come 68 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: right back into the fold and join her father's hotel business. 69 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 2: As it turned out, Holly loved college. She loved her 70 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 2: Kappa Kappa Gamma sisters, and as an outgoing, fun loving kid, 71 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 2: she appreciated the social intensity of the college experience. The 72 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 2: summer after her junior year, she decided to stay in 73 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: Lexington and take a couple of extra courses. I don't 74 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: know about y'all, but when I took summer courses, well, 75 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: they were the best. Typically, you had one class for 76 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 2: three hours, five days a week for a month, and 77 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: the rest of your time was just yours. During that 78 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: summer chill time is when Holly met a tall, sweet 79 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 2: kid named Christopher Meyer. It was a hot summer night 80 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 2: she was at a neighborhood bar with her girlfriend, celebrating 81 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: her friend's twenty first birthday and wearing silvernl polish. Years later, 82 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: she'd remember the line Christopher used when he walked up 83 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: to her. She recorded it in her memoir Sole Survivor 84 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 2: out his own sandaled foot and said, I have on 85 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: Silvertonel polish too. He was the kind of hippie dude 86 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: who did things like that, wear an ale polish, a 87 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: hemp necklace, the works, and Holly dug it. They spent 88 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: the whole night talking. She invited him and his friends 89 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: to the birthday party her girlfriends were throwing the next night, 90 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: and he showed up. Remember that feeling when you're young 91 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 2: and you have a crush and the crush likes you back. 92 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 2: You feel like you're the first people in the world 93 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 2: to ever have so much in common and everything they 94 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 2: say is interesting. That's how it was for Holly and Chris. 95 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: His family was Catholic like hers, He was in Greek 96 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: life just like her fi cap of Psi. They both 97 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: had beloved older sisters, but there was that sense of 98 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: newness too. That's such a special part of a crush. 99 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 2: Chris introduced Holly to his hippie leaning interest like sketching, camping, 100 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 2: and jam bands, and that was all new to Holly. 101 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,479 Speaker 2: He even liked to walk around barefoot. She was completely 102 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: charmed when he gave her a glittery purple daisy ring. 103 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 2: It was a perfect summer and then it was ending 104 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 2: time for real school time for senior year. Holly was excited. 105 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 2: Classes started Wednesday, August twenty seventh, nineteen ninety seven. On Thursday, 106 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 2: August twenty eighth, she had a date with Chris to 107 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: attend an off campus five SI party. She felt happy 108 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 2: anticipation as she put on her favorite new brown corduroy 109 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: pants in her room at the sorority house, slipped into 110 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 2: her favorite Birkenstock clogs, and adjusted that silly daisy ring 111 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 2: on her hand. It stood out among her usual silver 112 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 2: a pair of little hoop earrings with a finishing touch. 113 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 2: Chris pulled up in his issue as a trooper Hello 114 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven, popped out of the top of the 115 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: car with a microphone and shouted for all the sorority 116 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 2: sisters to hear. Holly done, come out, It's time to go. 117 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 2: Holly laughed out loud, feeling special. This boy was pronouncing 118 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: for all the world, literally on a loud speaker, that 119 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 2: he wanted her with him, that he liked her just 120 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: as much as she liked him. She ran downstairs, and 121 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 2: then the night began. The party was a little bit boring. 122 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: There was a keg and plenty of people, but the 123 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: energy was low. I'm guessing everyone was wasted and full 124 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: on too much beer. After a couple hours, Holly, Chris, 125 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 2: and two of Chris's buddies left. They headed down the 126 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: street suburban corps to the nearby train tracks. They had 127 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 2: a few beers with them. They were talking, joking around, 128 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: but all Holly and Chris really wanted to do was 129 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: talk to each other. Chris's buddies felt it after a 130 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 2: while they they'd better leave the couple alone. To their 131 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 2: lovey devy whispers. They were off to find some more beer. 132 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: Chris and Holly stayed, settling in for another of their 133 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: endless chats atop a grassy mound next to the tracks. 134 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 2: It was dark and quiet. Trains didn't seem to be 135 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 2: passing tonight, but they barely noticed where they were they 136 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 2: were so wrapped up in each other. Chris talked about music, 137 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 2: about his recent trip out to Maine for a big 138 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 2: Fish concert. Typical college student rhapsodies, but Holly never forgot 139 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 2: this conversation. Holly felt present with Chris, right there, right 140 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 2: where they were. But eventually they came out of the trance, 141 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 2: glancing around and remembering that it was late. It was 142 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 2: really dark now, the kind that's all inky shadows. They 143 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 2: should head back. They walked down the train tracks, hand 144 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 2: in hand, arms swinging back towards suburban court, back towards 145 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: the party, their friends and Chris's carr but they didn't 146 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: get far. A man stepped out of the bushes in 147 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: front of them, inches in front of them. Even that 148 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: close in the dark, it was hard to see his 149 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 2: features clearly, but Hollywood never forget anything about this night. 150 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 2: She could see he was sure much shorter than six 151 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 2: foot five Chris, and probably a couple inches shorter than Holly, 152 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: who was five foot eight. He had a medium, wiry build, 153 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 2: tan skin, wavy dark hair, dark square framed glasses. She 154 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: and Chris stepped back in surprise, and he asked them 155 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 2: where their friends went. Immediately, Holly felt nervous. If this 156 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: guy knew they'd been with friends, he'd been watching them 157 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: for a long time. He muttered, give me your money. 158 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 2: Chris stepped in front of her, saying calmly that they 159 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: didn't have any. Holly cracked a nervous joke about being 160 00:13:53,000 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 2: broke college kids, but the man barely seemed to hear them. 161 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 2: He just told them to get on their knees. Before 162 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 2: I jump back into what happened that night at the 163 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 2: railroad tracks, I'm gonna pause for a minute and give 164 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,479 Speaker 2: you the chance to skip ahead if you need to 165 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 2: to be frank. This next part is the part the 166 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 2: content warning warns you about, but it is important, so 167 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 2: walk through it with me if you can. Back to 168 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 2: the railroad tracks on August twenty eighth, nineteen ninety seven, 169 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 2: just blocks from the Phi Kapa PSI party, the stranger 170 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 2: in front of Holly and Chris ordered them to their knees. 171 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 2: They stood frozen. Then he was yanking Chris down by 172 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: the arm. Chris was larger, He could have fought back, 173 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 2: but he was a gentle kid. He wasn't going to 174 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 2: escalate the situation. You were never supposed to escalate a mugging. 175 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 2: That was how it got dangerous. Chris knelt on the 176 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 2: rocky tracks, letting the man pull off his backpack. Holly 177 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 2: did what he did, kneeling beside him. But that's when 178 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 2: Holly noticed something something in this stranger's hand. It was sharp, 179 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: maybe an ice pick or a screwdriver. Chris and Holly 180 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: both seemed to realize the intensity of the situation at 181 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: the same time. They started talking fast. They told the 182 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: man to take their ATM cards, credit cards, Chris's car keys, 183 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 2: whatever he wanted, but once again he didn't really seem 184 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: to be listening. Instead, without taking anything out of the backpack, 185 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 2: he walked behind Chris. He tied the straps around Chris's arms, 186 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 2: minding them in a web of nylon. Then he walked 187 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 2: towards Holly. He reached toward her waist. Chris started pleading 188 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: with him, begging him not to hurt her. The man 189 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 2: snarled back, commanding him to shut up and stop looking 190 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: at him. Then he grabbed Holly's belt, unbuckled it, pulled 191 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 2: it out of her belt loops, and used it to 192 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: tie up her arms. Holly and Chris kept talking, kept pleading, 193 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 2: but by now they knew this was not a mugging. 194 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: The man dragged Chris across rocks and glass into the 195 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 2: ditch beside the tracks. Holly scrambled after them on her knees. 196 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: She didn't want to be dragged. Next, he told them 197 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 2: he had a gun and his friend was nearby. He left. Briefly, 198 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 2: they heard the sound of ripping cloth. Holly was trying 199 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 2: to get the leather binding off her arms. She whispered 200 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: with Chris. Then the man was back, tying their legs 201 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 2: with new bindings, gagging them. Holly stuck out her tongue 202 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: as he did so, so it would be loose enough 203 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 2: to fall off. It did. After that, she finally got 204 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 2: her arms out of the belt. She kept them behind 205 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 2: her back so he wouldn't see. The man left again 206 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 2: and again he seemed jittery pacing. He only walked away 207 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 2: for a few moments at a time, but Holly used 208 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 2: the moments he turned his back, she moved closer to Chris. 209 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 2: She pulled off his gag. She tried to untie his 210 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 2: arms from their effective bindings. He urged her to run. 211 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 2: She said she wouldn't and put her arms behind her 212 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 2: back again. As the man turned towards them once more, 213 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 2: he didn't seem to notice them getting closer, or Holly's 214 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 2: loose arms every time he approached them, he just talked. 215 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: He demanded that they stop looking at him, kept saying 216 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: he had a gun, repeated that his friend was waiting nearby, 217 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 2: and then paced. He couldn't keep still, like he was 218 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 2: trying to decide what was next. Chris begged him not 219 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 2: to hurt Holly told him do whatever you want to me, 220 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 2: but please just let her go. Holly thought to herself, 221 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 2: I'm gonna remember your face, your scars, your tattoos, and 222 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 2: I'm not going to forget because if I live through this, 223 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 2: I will get you. The man walked away. Chris said 224 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 2: to Holly, stay calm, everything is going to be okay. 225 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 2: She'd think about those words many many times, because when 226 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 2: the man came back next, he moved more slowly. He 227 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 2: was carrying something large and heavy, clearly struggling under the weight. 228 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 2: He held it over Chris, who was lying face down 229 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 2: in the underbrush, and then he dropped it. The sound 230 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 2: it made it seemed to never stop in Holly's mind. 231 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: The man dropped that massive object again and again and again. 232 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 2: Later she learned he actually only dropped it once. That 233 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 2: was all it took. The repetition was in her own 234 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 2: mind repeating that horrible sound. Chris was gone. Holly started 235 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 2: to pray like she might die. Instead of killing her, 236 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: the man grabbed her and untied her legs, not seeming 237 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 2: to care that her arms were already untied. He had 238 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 2: the weapons, after all, that sharp pick, and as far 239 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 2: as Holly knew, a gun, he had the power. He 240 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 2: raped her. She tried to dissociate. Still, she dug her 241 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 2: hands into the dirt, ripping off her fingernails. She would 242 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 2: leave as much DNA as she could for the police. 243 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 2: She knew even then that whatever happened to her, he 244 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 2: couldn't get away with it. For now. That meant doing 245 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 2: what she could to make him see her as human, 246 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 2: so that maybe he'd let her live. Marvel with me 247 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 2: for a second at Holly's presence of mind. Amazing really. 248 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 2: She told him her name was Megan. She asked his name. 249 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 2: He said James Whitford, Whitby something like that. She said, 250 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 2: please don't kill me. He said he wouldn't. When he finished, 251 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 2: she asked if he would please pull up her pants. 252 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 2: He did. Maybe he was telling the truth, Maybe he 253 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 2: wouldn't kill her. She told him she'd never breathe a 254 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 2: word of this to anyone if you let her go. 255 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 2: He reached down to tug at her earring. It wouldn't 256 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 2: come out. She told him how to undo the latch. 257 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 2: He took a ring from her hand too, not the 258 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 2: daisy ring that she'd realize later was gone forever, somewhere 259 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 2: in the rocks and dirt of those train tracks. Then 260 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 2: he covered her and Chris with leaves and twigs, and 261 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 2: then she couldn't remember anything else. Holly had no idea 262 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 2: how long had passed. When she regained consciousness, she was 263 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: covered in blood. Everything felt like it was coming apart. 264 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 2: She would eventually learn she had a broken eye socket 265 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 2: and a crackjaw and skull. Her body was black and blue. 266 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 2: He thought he'd killed her somehow. She stumbled down the 267 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 2: tracks toward a house, knocked on the door. The college 268 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 2: kid inside laid her on his couch, called an ambulance. 269 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 2: Thought she wouldn't make it, tried to keep her awake 270 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: until the paramedics arrived so she might survive. She kept repeating, 271 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 2: my friend is out there. If she was alive, maybe 272 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 2: Chris was alive too. At the hospital, a nurse asked 273 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 2: her if she wanted to take emergency contraception, Yes she did. 274 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 2: They did the rape kit, which is a term you 275 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 2: hear a lot but maybe can't visualize exactly what it means. 276 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 2: It's a medical exam, but it's focused on collecting DNA 277 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 2: that might identify a sexual attacker. So it involves swabs 278 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 2: of the mouth, vagina, under the fingernails, anywhere there might 279 00:23:54,960 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 2: be DNA evidence. It also involves collecting guards that might 280 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 2: have that kind of evidence too, like underwear, and sometimes 281 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 2: the medical professionals take photos to document injuries. It'll look 282 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 2: a little different depending on what the assault looked like, 283 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: but it's never fun. Holly knew she needed to get 284 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 2: through it because this man's DNA was all over her, 285 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: and a rape kit would be the first step in 286 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 2: identifying him and bringing him to justice. She was still 287 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: thinking about that promise she'd made to herself out on 288 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 2: the tracks. He wouldn't get away with this. As the 289 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: hospital staff wrapped up the exam, they assured Holly they'd 290 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 2: gotten what they needed. They also told her that she 291 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 2: had no fatal injuries. There was a lot of blood 292 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 2: and a lot of pain. The man had beaten her 293 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 2: unconscious after he raped her, and her body showed the marks, 294 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 2: but she would live again. The presence of mind she had. 295 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 2: I mean, I follow true crime, and I know some 296 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 2: of the things you're supposed to do, But knowing you 297 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 2: should do it and actually doing it in the moment 298 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 2: are two different things, and she did both. A quick 299 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 2: reminder that I get the chance to talk to Holly 300 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 2: at the end of this episode, so stay tuned for that. 301 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 2: But first, back to nineteen ninety seven. The months of 302 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 2: physical recovery were obviously extremely difficult. There were so many 303 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: physical marks of what had happened. Holly's mouth was wired 304 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 2: shut for weeks while her jaw healed. Thank God, she 305 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 2: had incredible support from her family. Her sister and parents 306 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 2: flew out to Lexington the second they got the news. 307 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: Her sororities were at the hospital every day too. At 308 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: one point, sixteen of them packed into the little space, 309 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 2: crowded around the bed and told Holly the kind of light, 310 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 2: fun stories of college life that made her feel like 311 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 2: her old self for a little while at least. And 312 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 2: the detective on the case, Detective Craig Currel, was as 313 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 2: gentle as he could be when it came to taking 314 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 2: her statement. He told her they could stop at any 315 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 2: time that he could walk down the hall, come back later, 316 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 2: give her whatever space she needed. But Holly wanted to 317 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 2: answer Crell's questions. She wanted to give him every detail 318 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 2: she possibly could, even if that meant reliving that unfathomably 319 00:26:50,760 --> 00:27:00,479 Speaker 2: horrible night. More than anything, she wanted justice. Thing is, 320 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 2: as the weeks dragged into months, despite the dedication of 321 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 2: the Lexington Police Department, in especially Detective Surrell, there was 322 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: no progress on finding the attacker, not before he killed again. 323 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 2: It was May of nineteen ninety nine, close to two 324 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 2: years after the attack on Holly done. Holly had started 325 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 2: the long, hard process of rebuilding her life after unimaginable trauma. 326 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 2: She left school and then come back. She joined a 327 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,719 Speaker 2: support group for rape survivors and spent time exploring and 328 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: deepening her faith. But she still slept with the biggest 329 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: kitchen knife under her pillow because he was still out there. 330 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: That's when Detective Craig Serel knocked on Holly's Lexington apartment door. 331 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 2: They'd built up a close relationship by now. He'd take 332 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 2: her out for lunch and a chat and keep her 333 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 2: apprised of the work he was doing on the case. 334 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 2: But still the unannounced visit was a surprise, especially considering 335 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 2: there hadn't been much by way of updates on the 336 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 2: case for a long time, and especially considering the unusual 337 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 2: look on his normally kind, serious face. Today he looked excited, 338 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 2: and then he told her they finally had a suspect. 339 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 2: Sorel got the call on May twenty seventh. It was 340 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 2: from an FBI agent down in Houston who'd been combing 341 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 2: through a national database on violent criminals, one in which 342 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 2: Currel had logged the details of Holly and Chris's case. 343 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: This agent explained that he wasn't sure if this meant anything, 344 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 2: but he was investigating three murders in Texas and they 345 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: all happened right near the railroad tracks. Now, railroad tracks 346 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: are a pretty unusual way to connect cases. Normally, investigators 347 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 2: will link cases based on a similar victim profile, a 348 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 2: similar weapon, or that kind of thing. But in this 349 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 2: Texas case, investigators were coming up dry on those counts. 350 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 2: These murders involved different weapons, and they involved apparently random targets, 351 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 2: but the cases shared something, a certain vicious brutality and 352 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 2: a location near train tracks, which had police suspecting that 353 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 2: they were connected. It had them suspecting they had a 354 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 2: serial killer on their hands. December sixteenth, nineteen ninety eight, 355 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 2: doctor Claudia Benton, a pediatric neurological researcher, was beaten to death, 356 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 2: stabbed with a kitchen knife, and sexually assaulted in her 357 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 2: home in a small affluent suburb in Houston. Her husband 358 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 2: and twin daughters were out of town at the time. 359 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 2: They came home to find her face down on the floor, 360 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 2: head in a plastic bag and her upper body covered 361 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 2: in blankets. Evidence showed that after doctor Benton's murder and rape, 362 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 2: her killer went into the kitchen and made himself a snack, 363 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 2: and then he drove away in her jeep. May second, 364 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine, a pastor named Norman skip Cernic and 365 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 2: his wife Karen were found dead in their home in Wimer, 366 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: a rural community halfway between Houston and San Antonio. They 367 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 2: were both in bed, their heads bashed in with a 368 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 2: sledgehammer taken from their tool shed. Karen had been raped again. 369 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 2: Their attacker drove away in their car. There were fingerprints 370 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 2: and DNA evidence at both scenes. The evidence matched. Both 371 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 2: scenes were also close to railroad tracks. Now the FBI 372 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 2: wanted to see if there might be other victims linked 373 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 2: by those same railroad tracks, that same brutality. They wanted 374 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 2: to check the DNA from Holly's rape kit. Sirell had 375 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 2: said yes, that process was in motion. They were waiting 376 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 2: for results, but for now, Cerel had something for Holly 377 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 2: to look at. Photos. There were photos of the man 378 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 2: who the police suspected committed the murders down in Texas 379 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 2: based on the fingerprints at the Texas crime scenes. He 380 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 2: was a longtime criminal with decades of mugshots. He'd been 381 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 2: in and out of prison for crimes including destroying private property, 382 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 2: grand theft, auto burglary, and aggravated assault. One of his 383 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 2: convicted crimes was beating an eighty year old man nearly 384 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 2: to death during a robbery down in Florida. The elderly 385 00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 2: man died a few months later, but investigators couldn't definitively 386 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 2: tie his death to the assault, so they couldn't go 387 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 2: after the perpetrator for murder. Sorel pulled out the pictures 388 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 2: for Holly. Immediately, she knew it was him. She'd never 389 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 2: let herself forget that face, the man who killed Chris, 390 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: the man who left her for dead. They knew who 391 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 2: he was. Finally, now they just had to catch him. 392 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 2: That was easier said than done, despite the photos, despite 393 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 2: the fingerprints and the DNA evidence, which ended up definitively 394 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 2: tying Holly's case to the ones down in Texas, by 395 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 2: the way, despite the fact that investigators were starting to 396 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 2: connect more and more cases to this man. He went 397 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 2: by the alias Raphi Resindez Ramirez, and he'd been in 398 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 2: and out of the US since the nineteen seventies, but 399 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 2: his citizenship was Mexican. He'd been deported at least four times, 400 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 2: and he hopped freight trains to get around the country, 401 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 2: which explained the railroad connection between cases. That also meant 402 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 2: he was moving constantly without a license plate or even 403 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 2: a bus ticket purchase to identify him. He was a 404 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 2: hard man to pin down. He could be anywhere in 405 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 2: two countries, anywhere the trains went. Investigators went to the 406 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 2: news to try to get his face out there. He 407 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 2: was featured on the TV program America's Most Wanted. Holly 408 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 2: did an interview for the show, reliving her experience at 409 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 2: the railroad. Once again, she might not be an investigator herself, 410 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 2: but she was part of this fight to find him. 411 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 2: She needed to be. The tips came in, the public 412 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 2: was enraged someone breaking into people's homes, attacking people so 413 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 2: brutally and seemingly randomly. It was both terrifying and heartbreaking. 414 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 2: Holly's personal story helped put a face to all those 415 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 2: victims pain, since none of the rest were around to 416 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 2: speak for themselves, no one else had survived, and then 417 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 2: there were more of them, more victims. June fourth, nineteen 418 00:35:55,160 --> 00:36:02,720 Speaker 2: ninety nine, Noemi Dominguez, six year old Houston elementary school teacher, 419 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 2: was sexually assaulted and bludgeoned to death in her apartment. 420 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 2: Her attacker stole her car and drove it about ninety 421 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:17,760 Speaker 2: miles to Schulenberg, a small town not far from Weimar, 422 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 2: where the pastor and his wife were murdered. In Schulenberg, 423 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 2: seventy three year old widow and grandmother of six, Josephine Convica, 424 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 2: was murdered with the same pickaxe used to kill Noemi Dominguez. 425 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 2: The axe was found lodged in Josephine's forehead. Both Noemi 426 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 2: and Josephine lived right near railroad tracks. The DNA from 427 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 2: both their murder scenes matched the DNA from the other attacks, 428 00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 2: including Holly's. It seemed that as the nationwide search for 429 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 2: Raphael Rassindez Ramirez accelerated, so did his murder spray. On 430 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 2: June twelfth, investigators got another tip, but this one was 431 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 2: in a suspected sighting. It was a call from someone 432 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 2: who claimed to be the cousin of the killer. He 433 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 2: gave them the address of the killer's sister, Manuela Mattorino Kharkowitz. 434 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 2: Investigators spoke with her on June fourteenth. She said she 435 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 2: would help them find her brother. Now, I'm not sure 436 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 2: what these relatives said to the police on the phone, 437 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 2: but I know that later Racindez Ramirez's relatives would say 438 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,720 Speaker 2: they couldn't believe that a member of their family would 439 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 2: perpetuate these crimes when they first saw his name on 440 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 2: the news. Maybe at this point they thought that with 441 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 2: his face all over TV, his best bet for clearing 442 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 2: his name would be to turn himself in. Or maybe 443 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: some of them had seen something in him, something they 444 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 2: maybe couldn't have named, but made them suspect maybe he 445 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 2: had committed these crimes, and maybe they were afraid he'd 446 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 2: commit more of them. On June fifteenth, he killed two 447 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 2: more people, this time in Illinois, George Morber, an eighty 448 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 2: year old retired prison guard, and Carolyn Frederick, his adult daughter. 449 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 2: Once again, the killer made himself a snack in his 450 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 2: victim's kitchen, then he drove away in their car. On 451 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 2: June twenty first, the FBI added Raphael Risindez Ramirez to 452 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 2: the ten most Wanted Fugitives list. They posted a one 453 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty five thousand dollars reward for information leading 454 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 2: to his arrest and conviction. Holly prayed that he didn't 455 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 2: come looking for her, his one living victim. Then on 456 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 2: July eleventh, investigators got a call from Manuela, the railroad 457 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 2: killer's sister. She said she'd communicated with her brother through 458 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 2: another relative. He was in Mexico, and he admitted to 459 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 2: it to the whole family, the newspapers, the TV specials. 460 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:06,280 Speaker 2: It was all true. He'd committed these crimes. But Manuela 461 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 2: had more for the police. Her brother was ready to 462 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:15,720 Speaker 2: turn himself in. I'm not sure where that decision came from. 463 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 2: Maybe it was the pressure of the aggressive manhunt and 464 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,399 Speaker 2: constant news coverage. Maybe he thought it was inevitable he'd 465 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,879 Speaker 2: get caught and he was ready to get it over with. 466 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 2: Or maybe his family convinced him that he had to stop. 467 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:38,320 Speaker 2: Maybe they convinced him to turn himself in. Either way, 468 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 2: it happened on Tuesday, July thirteenth, nineteen ninety nine. It 469 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 2: was morning around nine am. A Texas ranger, a US Marshall, 470 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 2: and an FBI agent stood on the isleta Zaragoza International 471 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 2: Bridge in El Paso, Texas. With them were my Willa 472 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 2: Matarino Kharkowitz and her pastor. Walking towards them from the 473 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 2: other side of the border was a petite man in glasses. 474 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:21,240 Speaker 2: His real name was Anhel Maturino Lucindy's. The Texas ranger, 475 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 2: Drew Carter later told the reporters he stuck out his 476 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 2: hand and I stuck out my hand and we shook hands, 477 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 2: and then I handcuffed him and he was in custody. 478 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 2: Holly watched this unfold on TV, along with the rest 479 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 2: of America and much of the world. This was an 480 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:51,360 Speaker 2: international story. By now. There was relief, there was joy, 481 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 2: but for Holly there was also that pending question of justice. 482 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 2: I want to take a moment in reat rate the 483 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 2: mission of our show again. We want to tell the 484 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,720 Speaker 2: greatest true crime stories of all time, and it's important 485 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 2: to us that women not be depicted as only victims, 486 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:17,839 Speaker 2: not because they're not victims, but because they're never just victims. 487 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 2: Holly was a victim here, but she was about to 488 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 2: become a key witness as well, and it wasn't long 489 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 2: before she was on the ground in person, helping the 490 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 2: case once again in Houston, Texas. At the trial, a 491 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 2: reporter asked the prosecutor on Recindis's case to describe Recindi's 492 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 2: Devin Anderson replied this way. I don't understand what makes 493 00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,879 Speaker 2: somebody do that to people, and I don't really care. 494 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,319 Speaker 2: If he's guilty, then I'm going to do everything I 495 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 2: can to prosecute him to the fullest extent that the 496 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 2: law will allow me. The case was a strong one, 497 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 2: particularly considering the large amount of fingerprints and DNA evidence 498 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 2: found in all the crime scenes that DNA concretely connected 499 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:30,760 Speaker 2: Rascindi's to all the murders and Holly's rape. Devin didn't 500 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 2: really need Holly's eyewitness account to bring her man to justice, 501 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 2: but she asked her to come testify anyway. Like any 502 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 2: good prosecutor, Devin knew that part of her job was 503 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,280 Speaker 2: to weave the facts of the case into the story 504 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 2: of the case, and Holly Dunn, as the only surviving 505 00:43:54,680 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 2: victim of Reracindis's crimes, could help tell that story. Could 506 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 2: give the story a face and a heart. Just like 507 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 2: she had on national television helping find the killer, now 508 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 2: she would help bring him to justice. The trial started 509 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 2: in early May two thousand, the same time Holly was 510 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 2: walking across the stage in Lexington to receive her diploma 511 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:38,920 Speaker 2: from the University of Kentucky. She wasn't called to testify 512 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,360 Speaker 2: until the twenty second near the end of the trial. 513 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,920 Speaker 2: She'd chosen her outfit carefully, a black skirt and suit jacket. 514 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,360 Speaker 2: Her family was there with her. Devin Anderson asked her 515 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 2: if she was okay, if she was ready. She could 516 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,240 Speaker 2: see the terror in Holly's eyes as holl nodded silently. 517 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 2: Years later, Holly would explain her fear in an interview 518 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,840 Speaker 2: with the CBS news show Forty eight Hours. 519 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,400 Speaker 1: I talk about the trial as the hardest day of 520 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,919 Speaker 1: my life. What I was most worried about, I think 521 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,240 Speaker 1: when I testified, was seeing him again. 522 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 2: Devin looked at Holly intently that morning, and she understood. 523 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 2: She told Holly to stay calm, and then she told 524 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 2: her not to look at Rscindy's in the courtroom, not 525 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:38,840 Speaker 2: until she told her to once again. Holly nodded. She'd 526 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 2: promised herself lying in the dirt, that he will not 527 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,960 Speaker 2: get away with this, and she stood by that promise. 528 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:54,720 Speaker 2: She would not let him get away with this. Devin 529 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 2: was gentle with Holly on the witness stand. Holly remembers 530 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 2: her first question clearly in that same interview with CBS News. 531 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 1: The first question was what'd you do last weekend? And 532 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 1: so I was, like, I graduated from college. It felt 533 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:11,799 Speaker 1: good for me to be able to say, you know, 534 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,560 Speaker 1: I graduated from college in front of the guy who 535 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,920 Speaker 1: basically could have ruined my life and destroyed it, and 536 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:19,879 Speaker 1: not that he cared, because I don't think he did. 537 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 1: For me to be able to say, you didn't destroy me. 538 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 3: I'm still here, I'm still strong, I'm still the. 539 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,319 Speaker 1: Same person I was, it felt good. It felt, you know, 540 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: like I finally had my chance. 541 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:40,240 Speaker 2: From there, answering the questions got harder. Devin asked Holly 542 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,799 Speaker 2: about the night at the railroad track. As Holly went 543 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,840 Speaker 2: through harrowing detail after detail, she began to cry. The 544 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:56,080 Speaker 2: jurors cried. Even Devon's eyes were listening. Holly kept going, 545 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:04,720 Speaker 2: and then the moment Devon had warned her about. Devon 546 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,000 Speaker 2: asked Holly if the man who attacked her was in 547 00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:12,640 Speaker 2: the courtroom. She asked Holly to say, for the record 548 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:20,120 Speaker 2: what he was wearing today. Holly finally turned her head. 549 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,880 Speaker 2: She pointed at him. By now she was sobbing, but 550 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 2: she gasped out her answer. The white shirt. That was it. 551 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,879 Speaker 2: The defense tried to plead not guilty by reason of insanity. 552 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:45,440 Speaker 2: The jurors didn't buy it, an hell. Maturino Rescindi's was guilty, 553 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:58,400 Speaker 2: they said, and he deserved the death penalty. Rescindi's actually 554 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,759 Speaker 2: welcomed that punishment over life in prison, and although his 555 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,840 Speaker 2: lawyers still fought it with appeals, in the end, on 556 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,760 Speaker 2: June twenty seventh, two thousand and six, he was killed 557 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 2: by lethal injection. Holly was invited to be there. She 558 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:22,480 Speaker 2: chose not to attend. She was happy with the punishment, 559 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,320 Speaker 2: happy to know that she'd never have to fear Recindis again. 560 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,080 Speaker 2: But it was time to put anger, to put violent 561 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:37,839 Speaker 2: death in her past. She had a life to focus on. 562 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:44,319 Speaker 2: Holly married. She has two children now, and even though 563 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:49,120 Speaker 2: justice has been served, Holly done didn't stop at just witnessing. 564 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,400 Speaker 2: She turned her trauma into something that would help others. 565 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,040 Speaker 2: She speaks about her experience to groups around the country, 566 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 2: sharing information about safety, healing, dealing with trauma, and her 567 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:09,600 Speaker 2: own journey. Devin Anderson, the prosecutor in the Rascindi's case, 568 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,439 Speaker 2: said the following to CBS News about Holly's work. 569 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,680 Speaker 4: Holly is a hero because she did not let what 570 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 4: happened to her destroy her. She decided to make it 571 00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,360 Speaker 4: her reason to live, for her reason to help people. 572 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,719 Speaker 2: Beautifully stated, and I can't wait to share my conversation 573 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:57,480 Speaker 2: with Holly with you right after the break. Holly, thank 574 00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,120 Speaker 2: you so much for coming to talk to us. It 575 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:03,279 Speaker 2: is so nice to meet you. I'm really excited that 576 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,279 Speaker 2: I get to take your ryan a little bit about 577 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:07,359 Speaker 2: all the things you've been doing. 578 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:09,520 Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. 579 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely so, I wanted to start by how did you 580 00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,399 Speaker 2: go from you know, recovering and then now you are 581 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,759 Speaker 2: the advocate? What was that journey like? 582 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 1: So? 583 00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:25,080 Speaker 3: I was speaking to everybody I could right because I 584 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,239 Speaker 3: realized how much talking was part of my healing. So 585 00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,279 Speaker 3: I mean, I was doing it to anybody that would listen. 586 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,479 Speaker 3: I was like, I what groups let me? Who wants 587 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:35,239 Speaker 3: to hear me? You know, like, because I knew I 588 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,520 Speaker 3: got power from it. It was like my you know, 589 00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:41,719 Speaker 3: I felt healed by doing it. So I was doing 590 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,240 Speaker 3: it very often and speaking to anybody that would listen. 591 00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:46,480 Speaker 3: And then I had people start say to me, how 592 00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,120 Speaker 3: can we help you? And I was like, I don't know, 593 00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:50,839 Speaker 3: what do you mean? 594 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:51,400 Speaker 1: You know? 595 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,880 Speaker 3: Like, and then I'm like, in my mind, I'm thinking, 596 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,439 Speaker 3: do I need to start a foundation? Should I help 597 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,919 Speaker 3: a community organization that already exists? I'm thinking about this right, 598 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,000 Speaker 3: It's in my head. And then I get a phone call. 599 00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:05,560 Speaker 3: I'm at work one day and I get a phone 600 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,359 Speaker 3: call and a guy says, hey, we want to open 601 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,960 Speaker 3: an advocacy center and we want to name it after you. 602 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 3: What do you think about that? And of course I'm like, 603 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,399 Speaker 3: what's an advocacy center? I had to google it because 604 00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,880 Speaker 3: I didn't know what it was. And then I was like, 605 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,560 Speaker 3: oh my gosh, Like yes, I was like, I'm gonna 606 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:23,600 Speaker 3: have to be more involved if it has my name 607 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,160 Speaker 3: on it. But I mean, yes, I'm game and let's 608 00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:30,640 Speaker 3: get this going in our city. So we partnered together 609 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,480 Speaker 3: to create Holly's House. And I mean it couldn't have 610 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,959 Speaker 3: become at a better time because I was seeking out 611 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:38,719 Speaker 3: something to be a part of. 612 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,080 Speaker 2: That's perfect. I love to hear when things actually come 613 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:46,799 Speaker 2: together and you know, people with similar visions and motivations 614 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,880 Speaker 2: and goals can can make it work. I love that. 615 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,560 Speaker 2: Will you tell our listeners what Holly's House actually is 616 00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:55,960 Speaker 2: and does? Sure? 617 00:51:56,080 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 3: So, Holly's House is an adult child Advocacy center Evansville, Indiana. 618 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:05,200 Speaker 3: So that's my hometown. And it is a location where 619 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,880 Speaker 3: victims of intimate crimes can come to be interviewed. So 620 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:13,360 Speaker 3: they can be interviewed through a multidisciplinary approach where the 621 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,120 Speaker 3: victim feels supported and they can tell the story of 622 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,640 Speaker 3: the worst thing that ever happened to them and tell 623 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:23,760 Speaker 3: it one time and it's not so traumatizing on them. 624 00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,600 Speaker 3: But then we also help people get mental health services. 625 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,239 Speaker 3: We don't provide those, but we help them get to 626 00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:33,040 Speaker 3: the mental health services or support groups or you know, 627 00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,040 Speaker 3: an advocate, whatever they might need. We can become that 628 00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:40,600 Speaker 3: location that we help them find those those healing processes 629 00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,040 Speaker 3: possibly and then we also do prevention education, so we 630 00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,640 Speaker 3: teach in the local schools prevention education and we've taught 631 00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:52,280 Speaker 3: to over ninety thousand kids. I mean, it is about 632 00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:54,680 Speaker 3: prevention as well as helping the victim. 633 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,359 Speaker 2: That's beautiful and I love that you said, like, even 634 00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:01,200 Speaker 2: though it doesn't necessarily provide resources, you know how to 635 00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:05,000 Speaker 2: get to them, which from what I have heard secondhand 636 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,520 Speaker 2: and even like firsthand, right like the it's hard to 637 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,000 Speaker 2: find what you need, especially if you don't know what 638 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:15,800 Speaker 2: you need, so it's really that's super helpful. 639 00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,239 Speaker 3: Really become overwhelming. I mean, it can be overwhelming to 640 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,400 Speaker 3: try to find that for yourself. 641 00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,840 Speaker 2: Totally like and immediately too, because you're not just seeking 642 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,480 Speaker 2: it like in a totally level state of mind either, 643 00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:32,360 Speaker 2: you know, So any small setback is like well done trying, 644 00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:32,960 Speaker 2: you know. 645 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,319 Speaker 3: So I always tell the loved ones of people and 646 00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,319 Speaker 3: anybody that's gone through an experience like I did, or 647 00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:42,560 Speaker 3: through sexual assault that kind of thing. I always tell 648 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:44,319 Speaker 3: people that the one thing they can do, because you 649 00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,520 Speaker 3: have no control over their healing, but the one thing 650 00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:51,160 Speaker 3: that a loved one can do is inform yourself about 651 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,920 Speaker 3: the resources that are in your community. So know about 652 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,799 Speaker 3: the resources that might be available to that loved one 653 00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:58,640 Speaker 3: in the community, and then when they do come to 654 00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,319 Speaker 3: you and say I really need help, You're like, I 655 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:02,080 Speaker 3: know where to call. 656 00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:04,359 Speaker 2: That's actually like part of the next thing I wanted 657 00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:05,480 Speaker 2: to ask you about, was. 658 00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:07,200 Speaker 3: It? 659 00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:10,040 Speaker 2: You know, I was really struck by how central family 660 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,960 Speaker 2: and your personal support system were to you on your journey, 661 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,880 Speaker 2: and so for people struggling through tough experiences on their own, 662 00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:19,960 Speaker 2: like what's a good place to start? 663 00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:25,080 Speaker 3: Right? So the truly like that support system that you need, 664 00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,239 Speaker 3: because you do need someone in your corner, you have 665 00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,040 Speaker 3: to think sometimes outside the box on who that can be. 666 00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,279 Speaker 3: So it doesn't have to and it only has to 667 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,319 Speaker 3: be one person. It does not have to be a 668 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,960 Speaker 3: large support system. If you have one person that believes you, 669 00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,360 Speaker 3: that listens to you, that lets you talk, and that's 670 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,120 Speaker 3: your support system. So it could be you know, a teacher, 671 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,359 Speaker 3: a family member, a friend, a pastor, a therapist, it 672 00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,840 Speaker 3: could be so many different people. That is that person 673 00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:54,279 Speaker 3: for you? 674 00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:59,279 Speaker 2: And has there been any surprise person where you're like, 675 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,040 Speaker 2: I didn't think that the person who was going to 676 00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:02,279 Speaker 2: come through for me. 677 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:04,839 Speaker 3: It's amazing the people that I've kept in touch with. 678 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,360 Speaker 3: I mean, I've kept in touch with the EMT that 679 00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,200 Speaker 3: rode in the ambulance with me. I've kept in touch 680 00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,680 Speaker 3: with nurses that took care of me in the hospital. 681 00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:13,680 Speaker 3: I've kept in touch with the guy who called nine 682 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,719 Speaker 3: one one for me. I mean, those people are all 683 00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:21,360 Speaker 3: part of my you know, experience, my attack that happened. 684 00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,759 Speaker 3: They're all like the aftermath of it, and they were 685 00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:27,640 Speaker 3: like my first support system, you know. They were like 686 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:29,560 Speaker 3: the person that called what nine one one for me 687 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,279 Speaker 3: was like the first person that did something for me 688 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,279 Speaker 3: after this happened. So I mean, those are all still 689 00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,520 Speaker 3: people that I keep in touch with that those are 690 00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:40,719 Speaker 3: all people that I would have never known had this 691 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,759 Speaker 3: not happened. And I'm really thankful that they helped me 692 00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:44,600 Speaker 3: when I needed it. 693 00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,880 Speaker 2: That's awesome. I never I mean I didn't think of 694 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,359 Speaker 2: it like that. But so the part too of that 695 00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,839 Speaker 2: question was let's say, you know, I know someone who 696 00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,000 Speaker 2: has gone through some kind of trauma and I want 697 00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,840 Speaker 2: to be helpful, but I don't really know where to start. 698 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:05,759 Speaker 3: Sometimes not doing anything and like staying away because that's 699 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:07,680 Speaker 3: what we do because we're afraid we're going to say 700 00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,200 Speaker 3: something wrong. Is the wrong thing to do, right, I 701 00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,040 Speaker 3: mean the one like I mean, I've had I've gone 702 00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:15,719 Speaker 3: through other hard times in my life. And I even 703 00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:17,160 Speaker 3: had a friend come to me one time when I 704 00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:18,960 Speaker 3: went through something hard and she said, you know, I 705 00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,480 Speaker 3: have no idea what to say to you, but just 706 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:23,319 Speaker 3: know I'm going to sit here and you can do 707 00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,640 Speaker 3: whatever you need to do. You can cry, you can laugh. 708 00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:30,560 Speaker 3: I'm non judgmental sitting here for you, right, So just 709 00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:32,839 Speaker 3: show up a lot of times, that's all you have 710 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:35,200 Speaker 3: to do. Probably the best thing you can do, because 711 00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:38,000 Speaker 3: the person probably is going to tell you how you 712 00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:40,239 Speaker 3: can help them, or if not at all, you're just 713 00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,720 Speaker 3: that person that could be their support system that's sitting 714 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:44,000 Speaker 3: there supporting them. 715 00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:46,279 Speaker 2: Is there anything that you want to talk about or 716 00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,040 Speaker 2: that you want to make sure that people know about. 717 00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:50,919 Speaker 3: I mean, we covered a lot, you know, I work 718 00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:55,440 Speaker 3: so much now with victims and with survivors that you know, 719 00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:58,040 Speaker 3: I feel like my message is kind of morphed into 720 00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,560 Speaker 3: just that you can get through anything. I mean that 721 00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,440 Speaker 3: life is hard, and I mean we all have hard 722 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:06,640 Speaker 3: times in our lives and people come to me all 723 00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:08,799 Speaker 3: the time and say, what happened to me isn't like 724 00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:10,720 Speaker 3: what happened to you, and I'm like, but it happened 725 00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:12,919 Speaker 3: to you and to you this is a big deal, 726 00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:16,360 Speaker 3: right and so, I mean we all have stories, we 727 00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:20,280 Speaker 3: all have bad things that happen, but we find strength 728 00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:24,760 Speaker 3: in each other. We find strength in ourselves when we 729 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,280 Speaker 3: think that we have no strength. And I think people 730 00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,960 Speaker 3: can get through anything. We're resilient. Good things are going 731 00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,920 Speaker 3: to come. I mean, it always has. That's what's amazing 732 00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,080 Speaker 3: is that you know, from this horrible day has come 733 00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:42,040 Speaker 3: all this good And like, my whole life's mission is 734 00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:46,840 Speaker 3: because of this horrible day that happened. But you can't 735 00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,000 Speaker 3: focus on the bad. You focus on the good and 736 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,560 Speaker 3: it I mean, it's just amazing. Once that mindset changes 737 00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,040 Speaker 3: of you can that you can actually see the good, 738 00:57:57,280 --> 00:57:58,720 Speaker 3: it can change your life. 739 00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:03,120 Speaker 2: Wise words from Holly Done, I'm afraid I have a 740 00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:07,240 Speaker 2: less inspiring, more terrifying woman coming up for you on 741 00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:11,800 Speaker 2: our next episode. Join me next week on the Greatest 742 00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:15,240 Speaker 2: true crime Stories Ever told for a story set in 743 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:19,240 Speaker 2: the early days of American crime, when the system for 744 00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:24,120 Speaker 2: bringing murderers to justice was in its infancy, but when 745 00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:28,800 Speaker 2: your crimes were as flagrant as Amy Archer Gilligan's someone 746 00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:33,080 Speaker 2: was bound to catch on eventually. I'd also like to 747 00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:36,200 Speaker 2: shout out the source which made it possible to tell 748 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:42,320 Speaker 2: this story, Holly Dunn's memoir Sole Survivor. I highly recommend 749 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,080 Speaker 2: you check it out, as there are so many parts 750 00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,320 Speaker 2: of Holly's incredible story that I just didn't have time 751 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,960 Speaker 2: to get into. I'd also like to shout out the 752 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:56,640 Speaker 2: CBS News forty eight Hours episode on Holly's story, on 753 00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:00,440 Speaker 2: which Holly and others involved in the case given credible 754 00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:04,400 Speaker 2: interviews as well. For more information about this case and 755 00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:08,160 Speaker 2: other cases we cover on the show, visit Diversion Audio 756 00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:11,960 Speaker 2: dot com. Sign up for Diversion's newsletter and be among 757 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,360 Speaker 2: the first to hear about our special behind the scenes 758 00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:18,440 Speaker 2: features with the hosts and actors from Diversion's podcasts, more 759 00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,640 Speaker 2: shows you'll love from Diversion and our partners, and other 760 00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:27,280 Speaker 2: exclusive tidbits you can't get anywhere else. That's Diversionaudio dot 761 00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,880 Speaker 2: Com to sign up for the newsletter. The Greatest True 762 00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,480 Speaker 2: Crime Stories Ever Told is a production of Diversion Audio. 763 00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:40,480 Speaker 2: Your host is me Mary Kay mcbraer. This episode was 764 00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:44,960 Speaker 2: written by our editorial director, Nora Battel. Our show is 765 00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:49,840 Speaker 2: produced and directed by Mark Francis. Our development team is 766 00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:54,960 Speaker 2: Emma Dmouth and Jacob Bronstein. Theme music by Tyler Cash. 767 00:59:55,800 --> 01:00:00,840 Speaker 2: Executive producers Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman. 768 01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:10,920 Speaker 1: Diversion Audio 769 01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:14,560 Speaker 2: M HM