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Speaker 1: This episode includes discussion about sexual abuse that some listeners

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Speaker 1: might find disturbing. You're listening to Modern Rules, a production

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Speaker 1: of MSNBC and I Heart Radio. True masculinity is being

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Speaker 1: in touch with your feelings and not suppressing or again

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Speaker 1: being performative. His father would have beat him up with

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Speaker 1: a baseball bat. My dad didn't. Every man in his life,

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Speaker 1: at one time or another, is a fool, a victim,

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Speaker 1: or king. I'm Sephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor and NBC News correspondent,

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Speaker 1: and this is Modern Rules. In this season of Modern Rules,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be spending time unpacking the harriest conversations

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Speaker 1: from privilege to political correctness, to try and figure out

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Speaker 1: how we can navigate this changing world and break through,

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Speaker 1: to actually talk with and learn from the people who

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Speaker 1: disagree with us and maybe just maybe learned something along

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Speaker 1: the way. Together on Modern Rules, We're gonna get into

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Speaker 1: masculinity and the changing rules for both men and women

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Speaker 1: with my guests Terry Crews, Shown Dherty, and Request Love.

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Speaker 1: That's coming up on Modern Rules. When you think super masculinity,

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Speaker 1: mega guy, you think big strong athlete, the rock or

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Speaker 1: maybe my first guest, Terry Cruz he is a portrait

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Speaker 1: of that, but he's also a lot more. Terry's a

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Speaker 1: comedian and he's an author. He's also a survivor of

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Speaker 1: sexual assault, and he's been very open about his addiction

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Speaker 1: to pornography that he overcame with the help of rehab,

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Speaker 1: and he used his celebrity platform, he put it at

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Speaker 1: risk to talk about all of these things and more.

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Speaker 1: So I decided to sit down with him that Terry, first,

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Speaker 1: I want to start. I want to thank you. I

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Speaker 1: want to thank you for everything you do, specifically around masculinity.

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Speaker 1: And so I want to go back in time as

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Speaker 1: of me as a mom. I have two young sons

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Speaker 1: and a daughter. But I want to know when you

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Speaker 1: were a kid growing up, what do you think masculinity was?

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Speaker 1: What do you want to be? Wow, that's a big question. Um.

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Speaker 1: For me, what I thought masculinity was what's muscle? I

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Speaker 1: thought you had to be the strongest, you had to

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Speaker 1: be the toughest. And I have to say I started

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Speaker 1: up it was pretty innocent, just in you know comic

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Speaker 1: book heroes, and you know the images of manliness that

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Speaker 1: you saw back in the day. I mean I remember

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Speaker 1: walking around and there was Marlboro Men posters, and it

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Speaker 1: was like, that's a man, you know, he's he just

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Speaker 1: got off a horse and he's alone. But as a kid,

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Speaker 1: you like, I will everyone be alone? So maybe when

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Speaker 1: I get to be a man, and maybe one day

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Speaker 1: I'll be able to not feel bad about being alone,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Because manliness was like I

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Speaker 1: walk alone, I do my thing. And I have to

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Speaker 1: say my father was the example. He had his own life.

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Speaker 1: He was separate from all of us. He was very abusive.

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Speaker 1: That was the image, and I was like, I wonder

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Speaker 1: if I'm gonna be like that. That was the big

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Speaker 1: I have to say. There's a difference between how men

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Speaker 1: take things and women. One thing I always say is

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Speaker 1: that men tend to be manipulated by pride. This is

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Speaker 1: the deal. Whereas a guy will look at another guy

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Speaker 1: and go, hey, man, I bet you can't jump off

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Speaker 1: that that rock over there, and I bet you I can,

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Speaker 1: And then a guy will jump off the right. Now

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Speaker 1: a woman will be in the center go hey, what

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Speaker 1: are you doing. Don't jump off that you can hurt yourself. Correct.

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Speaker 1: But if a woman walks into a party wearing the

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Speaker 1: same dress as another woman, she's crawling under a rock,

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Speaker 1: whereas two guys walk into a party wearing the same

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Speaker 1: thing and their chest bumping and don't we look good?

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Speaker 1: But now I want to flip this and this is

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Speaker 1: through what I have observed. I'm not a woman, so

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Speaker 1: I won't speak for women, but this is what when

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Speaker 1: what I've observed and how men have manipulated women. Men

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Speaker 1: have manipulated women through fear. It's like, hey, you know what,

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Speaker 1: you're not looking as good as you used to, or hey, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know what, aren't you afraid that I'm gonna run off?

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Speaker 1: They kind of play the fears of a woman, and

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Speaker 1: what happens is that's the way people are manipulated. But

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Speaker 1: one thing I discovered is that I Terry Crews had

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Speaker 1: to fight pride because that was a thing that was

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Speaker 1: making me do so many stupid things. Why did you

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Speaker 1: choose to write You're the portrait of masculinity? Whatever self

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Speaker 1: doubt you've got, that could live inside your shower as

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Speaker 1: you scream or cry, and then you could walk out

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Speaker 1: of that shower and be the big buff Terry that

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Speaker 1: we always knew. What made you decide to go on

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Speaker 1: this journey? Yeah, every man in his life at one

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Speaker 1: time or another. It's a fool, a victim, or a king. Now,

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Speaker 1: every man has a foolish dage, right, You're just a fool.

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Speaker 1: You're like, I'm gonna try it as you do dumb, dumb,

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Speaker 1: dumb things. But what problem is by doing those dumb things,

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Speaker 1: you really mess up things. Okay, something's gonna get messed up,

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Speaker 1: and then you become a victim. You switch gears. Well,

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Speaker 1: it was because of this, It was because I had.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you, with victim hood, you never run

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Speaker 1: out of excuses. It was my mother, it was my father,

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Speaker 1: it was where I grew up. It was the teacher

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Speaker 1: I had, it was a wife, it was you never

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Speaker 1: run out. That table was always full. But then there's

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Speaker 1: the moment where you become the king. And the thing

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Speaker 1: is when you realize that you are responsible for everything

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Speaker 1: in your life, good and bad. If it's bad, you

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Speaker 1: did it. If it's good, you did that too. Everything

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Speaker 1: is your responsibility in your own life. And that it's like,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, I didn't like something I should have.

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Speaker 1: I can tell her to get out of my courtroom.

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Speaker 1: But Terry, you were the victim of assault. That wasn't

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Speaker 1: your fault. But no, I didn't say it was my fault.

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Speaker 1: But what I am saying is as a victim, that's

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Speaker 1: a whole another thing. When you've been wrong, there's a

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Speaker 1: choice to make. There's a choice of me. And the

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Speaker 1: big thing I had to make was was I going

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Speaker 1: to stay here? You've moved from victimhood to survivor to

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Speaker 1: different places. I decided I was going to be a survivor.

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Speaker 1: A survivor fights back, a survivor stands for other survivors.

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Speaker 1: You see what I mean. But victimhood can be like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know what, this is just the way it is.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you that there are so many men.

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Speaker 1: I just spoke to the military. I went to South

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Speaker 1: Korea and spoke to the military all day. Victimhood doesn't

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Speaker 1: tell on other people. It literally stays right where it

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Speaker 1: is because this is where we are. It's their fault,

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Speaker 1: and you give power to other people. At the time,

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Speaker 1: I remember literally spending a year knowing that this man

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Speaker 1: did this to me, and I didn't say anything because

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Speaker 1: I felt like a victim, and I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: what can I do? So you woke up and decided

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Speaker 1: to become a survivor. Inspired by the women of the

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Speaker 1: Me Too movement. When I heard their story and these

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Speaker 1: women came forward and we're straw and honest about what

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Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein did to them. I read that Ronan Faroal

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Speaker 1: story and I could not put it down. You know

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Speaker 1: what it was like, It's like I'm behind enemy lines

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Speaker 1: and I'm watching people escape through the fence, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, I think I can go through the fence.

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Speaker 1: But I was like, but I don't know. And then

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Speaker 1: I watched another one run out, and I watched another

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Speaker 1: person run out. But Terry, this goes back to toxic

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Speaker 1: masculinity or our expectations of men, because when you came out,

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Speaker 1: people were surprised. Lots of people were supportive, but some

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Speaker 1: people weren't. Some people mocked it. Some people are like,

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Speaker 1: what a man getting assaulted? I don't get it. First

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Speaker 1: of all, they were told I was told that it

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Speaker 1: was impossible. They were like, do you too big? Too big?

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Speaker 1: They've ever had that happen to you. That's like saying

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Speaker 1: a building is too big to get robbed, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean. It's literally like, so size has something

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Speaker 1: to do with that. No, it doesn't. Were you vulnerable

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Speaker 1: because you needed a job. M. Yeah, there was vulnerability

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Speaker 1: there simply because I wanted to work. So that wouldn't

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Speaker 1: happen to you today. Oh no, not. Now, Let's say

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Speaker 1: let's say you hadn't come out with your story, but

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Speaker 1: you were significantly more successful terry crews. Do you think

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Speaker 1: you would have been a target or a victim of

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Speaker 1: a fault if you were much more established? Yeah? Really?

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Speaker 1: Oh no. First of all, the man's all to me.

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Speaker 1: I didn't care, you know what I mean? He was

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Speaker 1: more powerful than you. Well, that's the thing. That's the

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Speaker 1: nature of assault. You don't assault people you think are

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Speaker 1: as powerful as you are. You always have a superiority

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Speaker 1: over whoever you go after. If I was to hit

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Speaker 1: somebody in the face, it's because I believe I'm better

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Speaker 1: than them, or bigger than them, or stronger than them.

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Speaker 1: That's the only criteria. If you felt someone was actually

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Speaker 1: equal to you, you would never put your hands on them.

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Speaker 1: It's about superiority. It's about I'm over you, and it

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Speaker 1: is is that if you felt you were even you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't do that. This guy always felt like he was

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Speaker 1: over me. Hold on a second, because we have so

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Speaker 1: much more to talk about. We'll be right back after

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Speaker 1: a quick break, Welcome back to modern rules. Were you

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Speaker 1: surprised that you got any pushback when you came out? Actually,

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Speaker 1: I knew there would be some because I know my community,

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Speaker 1: I know the culture, I know sports culture, I knew

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Speaker 1: African American culture, and I knew people would be like what.

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Speaker 1: But because it was so important, there was a moment

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Speaker 1: that I was I remember talking to my wife. I

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Speaker 1: was like, it's bigger than us. We have to come

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Speaker 1: forward simply because there's so many people getting away with

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Speaker 1: this that if we don't add our names to the story.

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Speaker 1: I felt like a forest. I felt like a fraud

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Speaker 1: for it to happen to me and for me that

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Speaker 1: it remained silent. And this is a personal thing, and

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Speaker 1: my deal is it's always always seek help for yourself first.

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Speaker 1: Now you have to understand too. Before I came forward,

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Speaker 1: I have been through years of counseling, years of self reflection.

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Speaker 1: I had already wrote Manhood. You understand what I mean.

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Speaker 1: I had been before America was ready to read it.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing. I've already been through this stuff. When

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Speaker 1: I went back to my wife, I was like, Rebecca,

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Speaker 1: this is the stuff I'm talking about. This is the

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Speaker 1: toxicity that we need to fight because this attitude is ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: And when you wrote Manhood, what did publishers say? What

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Speaker 1: did agents say? My publisher literally felt like you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean I remember going on the press Stewart at

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Speaker 1: Last was like three days and it was over. I

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Speaker 1: was like, are we going to do anymore? I actually

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Speaker 1: still wanted to do an audiobook, and it wouldn't let

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Speaker 1: me do it. I couldn't believe. I think they thought

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Speaker 1: they wanted a really funny anecdotal book and they ended

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Speaker 1: up with a very serious, you know, topical, like what

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Speaker 1: is he talking about? Kind of book. I think they

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Speaker 1: felt men would be turned off. And I feel validated

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Speaker 1: right now. Who did you look up to when you're

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Speaker 1: a kid? Oh my god? I mean again, I watched

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Speaker 1: Bad Hour, I mean Bill Cosby. These are people who

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Speaker 1: were pivotal to me and then let me down, and

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Speaker 1: so it was really crushing. I have to say. When

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Speaker 1: the whole thing started to go down, because we had

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Speaker 1: heard rumors and this kind of thing, and even with

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Speaker 1: rappers and musicians and you start to see you like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, these people were monsters. It hurts. It

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Speaker 1: still hurts you know what I mean. And there were

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Speaker 1: a lot of people I looked up to that I

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Speaker 1: can't look up to anymore. But I also realized I

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Speaker 1: got to fill that space. You know, it's not good

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Speaker 1: enough to just talk about what's bad. You have to

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Speaker 1: put good things out, and I think it can counteract

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Speaker 1: just a little bit of good really counteracts a ton

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Speaker 1: of bad. It's like if you carry a candle into

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Speaker 1: a dark room, the room is lit. You know what

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Speaker 1: I mean. Runs, you know what I mean, You got understand.

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Speaker 1: And it was like when I grew up, if you

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Speaker 1: couldn't fix your car, you weren't even a man. You

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Speaker 1: weren't even a man. They will be like, okay, I

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Speaker 1: didn't know anything about cars, and so they were like, dude, okay,

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Speaker 1: you know what, Go learn about cars and you'll be

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Speaker 1: a guy. I play the flute. Okay, I played the flute.

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Speaker 1: You know how many times I was called, oh man,

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Speaker 1: look at this, sinsy man, what are you doing? And

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Speaker 1: do it? And then I go to football. Prety, let

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Speaker 1: me tell you something. The cheer fact that I played

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Speaker 1: football was actually to read to fight the stuff I

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Speaker 1: was called. I was oriented, I was painting, drawing, I

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Speaker 1: had interested in entertainment. I still to this day love fashion,

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Speaker 1: but I was looked at as like, oh man, look

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Speaker 1: he's weak. But now listen, I'm stronger than you can

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Speaker 1: you call me weak, And so I felt like to

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Speaker 1: compensate for that, I would go into the gym, which

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Speaker 1: is a lot of it was a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: Do let me tell you something. This is another thing.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people don't know. There are lots and

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Speaker 1: lots of men one in six who have been molested,

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Speaker 1: have been sexually assaulted and have never ever come out

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Speaker 1: about it or never talked about it, but have overcompensated beings,

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Speaker 1: taking steroids, being more supermanly. If so manly, they can't

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Speaker 1: get me. You understand you're talking about And this is

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Speaker 1: this is facts one and six, And it's such an

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Speaker 1: epidemic that you know, it's one of the things that

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Speaker 1: when people finally come forward, this is what blew everyone away.

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Speaker 1: Even after I talked to Congress, there were six wrestlers

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Speaker 1: from Ohio State that came forward about the team doctor

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Speaker 1: that molested them. Wrestlers people who you would think are

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Speaker 1: the manliest, super strongest guys, toughest. They finally felt like

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Speaker 1: it was safe to come outside, and that's what I

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Speaker 1: want to tell people. I'm like, hey, man, it's safe.

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Speaker 1: You know what, Nothing's gonna happen to you. I is

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Speaker 1: going to take anything from you. You're not weak. In fact,

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Speaker 1: you're strong by telling your truth. We see more and

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Speaker 1: more the ways in which we expect men to be

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Speaker 1: and behave are evolving. Men are now grappling with the

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Speaker 1: lessons of their parents, and they're choosing whether or not

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Speaker 1: they want to pass them on to their kids. That's

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Speaker 1: a big theme we discussed with my next guest. He's

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Speaker 1: a Navy veteran, a restaurateur, Shan Dharty. He's an advocate

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Speaker 1: for child sex abuse survivors, but he's also a survivor

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Speaker 1: of child sex abuse himself. When he was in the

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Speaker 1: fifth grade, his priest abused him. It was a secret

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Speaker 1: he struggled with for many, many years of his childhood

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Speaker 1: as he grew up with seven siblings in Pennsylvania. When

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Speaker 1: you were growing up, the way we raised our children,

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Speaker 1: specifically are boys. They weren't emotional. They put their heads down,

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Speaker 1: they kept their mouth shut, and they forged ahead. And

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Speaker 1: now we're trying to give our boys the license to

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Speaker 1: open up to express themselves more. And it doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: that they can't be masculine, but it almost seems like

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Speaker 1: we're redefining what masculinity is. Do you think that's a

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Speaker 1: good thing, because some people don't. Whether people think it's

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Speaker 1: a good thing or it's not a good thing, that's

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Speaker 1: what's happening. But somebody with your dad's upbringing might say

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Speaker 1: this is wrong that we're letting our boys do this.

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Speaker 1: It's not wrong. And you know my dad, over the

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Speaker 1: course of my lifetime, that hard making still maker. I

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Speaker 1: have a homosexual brother, I have people of color in

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Speaker 1: my family. Now to where the father of old the

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Speaker 1: archie Bunker never go for that. But he was forced

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Speaker 1: with you know, what's he gonna do Is he gonna

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Speaker 1: throw a son out? So what did he do? Embraced him,

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Speaker 1: lived with it, drank. You know, I never really understood it,

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Speaker 1: but you know, didn't stop loving. My dad was a

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Speaker 1: very good guy, but he was brought up very hard.

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Speaker 1: But look, his father would have beat him up with

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Speaker 1: a baseball bat. My dad didn't. This generation were trans

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Speaker 1: sexuals in the military. You know, I'm a military veteran.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people don't like what I say about

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Speaker 1: the military. But you know, we weren't allowed, you know,

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Speaker 1: black people weren't allowed to serve in the military before.

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Speaker 1: They said that that was going to disrupt the unit.

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Speaker 1: Well it did disrupt the unit, didn't it. But so

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Speaker 1: all the divisions that we talk about all the time,

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Speaker 1: you see them as smaller and smaller, like you see progress.

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Speaker 1: That Western Pennsylvania home is changed today, very changed today.

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Speaker 1: But you know, some things for the better, some things

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Speaker 1: for the worst. You know, opioids. My town is being

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Speaker 1: crushed by opioids. But you know what, now we're at

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Speaker 1: least talking about why Before when I was a kid, Hey,

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Speaker 1: there's a bar in a church on every corner and town.

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Speaker 1: Why is it? Oh? Now, as an adult, I know

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Speaker 1: there's a bar in every corner because there's a church

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Speaker 1: on the opposite corner. You need it, you know, you're

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Speaker 1: you're yourself medicating. Well, at least now we're talking about

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Speaker 1: it the masculine. They're saying, I need help. We're going

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Speaker 1: to be right back after a quick break, Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to modern rules. My friend Amir is a polly math,

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Speaker 1: a musician, a composer, and entertainer. You might know him

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Speaker 1: as a quest love He's been in the music industry

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Speaker 1: for a long time as a member of the Roots,

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Speaker 1: as a band leader for Jimmy Fallon, and as a

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Speaker 1: producer of Hamilton's as a man who has spoken out

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Speaker 1: on gender, race, celebrity, inequality, and many other seminal discussions

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Speaker 1: for as long as I've known him. In our wide

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Speaker 1: ranging interview, we get right to the heart of what

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Speaker 1: makes masculinity so tricky, and somehow we managed to work

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Speaker 1: in Beyonce and Prince along the way. I want to

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Speaker 1: talk to you about masculinity because right now there's this

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Speaker 1: toxic masculinity and and and people are saying we're going

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Speaker 1: after you know what represents being a man, and and

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Speaker 1: and we have phrases like man up. But when I

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Speaker 1: look at all of the loneliness, when I look at

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Speaker 1: the school shooters and the boxes that young boys are

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Speaker 1: put in because they've got to be so tough and

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Speaker 1: they can't show emotion, I see a positive that we're

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Speaker 1: now giving license to say you don't just have to

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Speaker 1: shut up and be tough. You can be more than that.

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Speaker 1: But there's a lot of pushback against it. And now

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Speaker 1: we're insulting a man's masculine identity. It's where now I'll

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Speaker 1: joke and say like, yeah, you know, my dad was

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Speaker 1: Joe Jackson drill sergeant type. But I mean he definitely

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Speaker 1: was from the school of like, well, your mom can

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Speaker 1: do the nurturing. I'm the tough love sheriff. But as

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Speaker 1: a result, we really didn't have a tender relationship that

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Speaker 1: until really like the last year of his life. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's on his deathbed and we finally, you know, shed

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Speaker 1: and it was weird, like, wow, dad knows how to cry.

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Speaker 1: I never knew that. And it's weird because even now

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Speaker 1: my band members, I'm the only route without a kid.

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Speaker 1: It's one thing when they're newborns, but now they are

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Speaker 1: twelve and fourteen going through the same problems that you're

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Speaker 1: going through. And often the discussion is I want to

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Speaker 1: be the progressive parent that talks and explains to my child,

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Speaker 1: or how should I handle this particular situation. And it's

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Speaker 1: everyday situations from acting up in school, who's this friend

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Speaker 1: you're hanging out with, what's this girl doing here? That

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Speaker 1: sort of thing, And now the debate is whether or

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Speaker 1: not to repeat the cycle of what our fathers taught us,

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Speaker 1: or do we just talk. Most black fathers and black

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Speaker 1: families look at white people crazy when it's like, go

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Speaker 1: to time out. I wish I knew a timeout was.

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Speaker 1: I did not know a time out. Trust me, I

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Speaker 1: was a white girl that got spanked many a time. Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: so you know what's up. That's what I'm dealing with now,

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Speaker 1: Like what is what is the proper answer is talking

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Speaker 1: and explaining and having faith that your child will make

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Speaker 1: the right decision. Will that be effective or will you

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Speaker 1: be like me? You know, twenty years into therapy, dealing

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Speaker 1: with the undoing of everything that I was taught in,

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Speaker 1: learning a new process. Not everyone as fortunate as I

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Speaker 1: am to afford the best therapist and to get these lessons. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we do live in a toxic masculine culture right now.

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Speaker 1: But then do we need to not abandon what masculinity

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Speaker 1: is but look at it in a different way? Right

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Speaker 1: I think we need to redefine it. And I think

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Speaker 1: that real masculinity is Prince is a great example. Chris

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Speaker 1: Rocks said that what's more confident masculine than knowing that

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Speaker 1: a guy in high heeled boots can steal your woman?

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Speaker 1: I mean that, to me, is is the definition of

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Speaker 1: true masculinity is being in touch with your feelings and

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Speaker 1: not suppressing or again being performative, because there's also performative

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Speaker 1: masculinity behind closed doors. I've seen the toughest of the

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Speaker 1: tough cry like babies over my dog died today, but

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Speaker 1: then going you know what's up, motherfucker? You know that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. So it's the ideal performative is again

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Speaker 1: putting uh facade or a mask on so that you

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Speaker 1: can get through everyday life. Then quest what do we do.

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Speaker 1: When my second son was five years old and we

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Speaker 1: were looking at schools, I want to go see a

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Speaker 1: co ed school. And when they gave me a tour,

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Speaker 1: they said, and this is the field where the boys

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Speaker 1: play lacrosse, and this is where the girls have chorus practice,

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Speaker 1: and this is where the girls yeah, and this is

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Speaker 1: where the girls do are this is the wrestling room

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Speaker 1: for the boys. And that son, for me, loves music,

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Speaker 1: he loves writing, he loves acting. And in the end

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Speaker 1: I made the decision to send him to an all

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Speaker 1: boys school. And it was because if he's in an

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Speaker 1: all boys environment, there's no boy activity or girl activity.

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Speaker 1: Everybody just does everything. And for me, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: protect him from those labels until he was, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the eighth grade, and by then he was confident

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Speaker 1: and he knew what lane he would want to be in.

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Speaker 1: Do we need to change? I'm seeing slow change. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's weird. And I joked it this all the time

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Speaker 1: whenever I played Beyonce song it's a call to all

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Speaker 1: women to come to the dance floor, and most men

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Speaker 1: start looking at their invisible watches like, um, gonna go

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Speaker 1: over there, Like I never see a guy dances single

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Speaker 1: ladies or the intro to Crazy and Love, Like I

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Speaker 1: never see a guy like strut that her music is

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Speaker 1: so ubiquitous. But it's almost like I struggled to find

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Speaker 1: one guy that was like, oh my god, drunken love

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Speaker 1: is you know that sort of thing? Who areun the world?

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Speaker 1: Girls who don't know any guys who can't wait to

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Speaker 1: get out there when I want to see a sea

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Speaker 1: change on the floor and to see all women dance.

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Speaker 1: Beyonce's that person. But yet if all women are dancing,

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Speaker 1: then guys are like, Okay, I gotta figure out my

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Speaker 1: way back onto the dance. So she holds that power now,

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Speaker 1: So here's what I'm hearing about masculinity. It is shifting.

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Speaker 1: Something that men and women thought they understood is changing.

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Speaker 1: And I get it that confusion is unsettling for a

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Speaker 1: lot of guys out there. It's confusing for women too.

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Speaker 1: These changes can offend people, not on purpose, but especially

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Speaker 1: when you think about identities that we inherit from our parents,

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Speaker 1: and now we've decided to change those rules. That's hard

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Speaker 1: for other generations. And if we want to make these changes,

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Speaker 1: we need to think about it sooner. We need to

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Speaker 1: think about it from our kids first memories when we

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Speaker 1: divide them in school and sports and the games that

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Speaker 1: they play. And it doesn't mean that games are wrong.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that conduct should be forbidden. What I'm

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Speaker 1: learning is it can be more. Men can be all

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Speaker 1: of these traditional things and more. Something that I disagree

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Speaker 1: with is saying disbehavior is wrong and there shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: a man of the household and a man shouldn't do that.

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Speaker 1: Why does there have to be I shouldn't. Why do

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Speaker 1: we have to devolve into this? While a man can't

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Speaker 1: open a door and a man can't pay a bill,

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Speaker 1: stop what it can't. So here's what I'm going to

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Speaker 1: do in my own life and on the platforms that

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Speaker 1: I have, I'm going to be aware of these labels.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to think about who's the boss and commercials

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Speaker 1: and who's carrying the laundry basket. I'm going to think

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Speaker 1: about those word choices to my kids. It doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: my daughter can't be a princess. It doesn't mean my

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Speaker 1: son can't be the star of the cabaret show. It

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Speaker 1: just means we've got to offer more opportunities. So I,

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Speaker 1: for one, what I'm gonna do is judge less and

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Speaker 1: do more. This has been our conversation on masculinity. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for listening and bringing an open mind and helping

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Speaker 1: me create Modern Rules. I want more of this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Go deeper and read this week's Modern Rules feature only

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Speaker 1: on NBC news dot com slash Better. That's it for

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Speaker 1: today's episode. I'm your host, Stephanie Rule. A very very

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Speaker 1: special thanks to the extraordinary people who made this happen.

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Speaker 1: My producers Julie Brown, Samantha Ullen, and Anne Bark, Audio

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Speaker 1: Michael Byett for booking and wrangling the amazing guests who

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Speaker 1: joined us, Julian Weller for editing and bill plaques. Michael

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Speaker 1: Azar and Jacobo Penzo for their recording expertise. Special thanks

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Speaker 1: to Steve lick Tide, Barbara Rab, Jonathan Wald, Marie Dugo,

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Speaker 1: Holly traz Nikki Etre, and Christina it. Our executive producers

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Speaker 1: are Conald Byrne and Mangesh Hatiga Door and of course

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Speaker 1: the men who brought us all together, Chairman and CEO

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Media Bob Pittman and Chairman of NBC

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00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: News Andy Lack. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio,

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Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever

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Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows,