WEBVTT - Bonus Episode: George Chryssides 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:04.880 Strange Arrivals is a production of iHeart Radio and Grin 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:07.360 and Mild from Aaron macke for. 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:18.040 The best experience listen with headphones. This is a bonus 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:22.840 episode of season three of Strange Arrivals. Bonus episodes feature 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.119 interviews that I conducted during my research, but that I 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:29.480 either didn't use or used sparingly in the main episodes. 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:33.080 There were great conversations that, for one reason or another, 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.040 didn't make the cut, but I think they add valuable 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:41.000 perspective to the ideas we explored this season. I had 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.199 originally planned to do a couple of episodes during season 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:47.840 three on the Heaven's Gate group that committed mass suicide 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.600 in nineteen ninety seven, but as my research continued and 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:55.000 the season took shape, I realized that Heaven's Gate didn't 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:59.200 quite fit into the larger narrative. In the meantime, though 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.360 I had conduct I did two interviews with leading Heaven's 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:07.199 Gate scholars, so this week and next we'll present those interviews. 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:11.039 There are plenty of podcasts and documentaries on Heaven's Gate, 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:13.640 so if you've seen or listened to one or more 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.360 of those, I think this will give you some great insight. 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.800 If you aren't familiar with Heaven's Gate, this will introduce 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.240 you to some of the issues surrounding the group and 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:27.240 what they believed. In this episode, I talked with George Crisidis, 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:32.119 who is an honorary Research Fellow in Contemporary Religion at 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:34.800 York Saint John University in England. 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:42.560 Okay, I'm George Crosidas and I'm currently an honorary research 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:47.440 fellow at Yorks and John University in England. I used 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:50.360 to be Head of Religious Studies at the University of 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:54.440 Wolverhampton until I've retired in two thousand and eight, and 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:57.600 since then I've been doing quite a bit of writing, 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:01.720 mainly on new religious movements, and I published quite a 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:06.000 bit on Heaven's Gate as well as other U four religions. 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.600 Can you talk a little bit about the formation of 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:14.600 Heaven's Gate and what the two founders sort of brought 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:15.640 to it at the beginning? 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.680 Yeah, Well, the two founders when a man and a woman, 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:27.120 Marshall Heath Applewhite, known variously as Door or as well. 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:31.919 They the two of them assumed various pseudonyms born Peak, 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.480 Guinea and Pig and finally Tea and the Door, which 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:41.080 would talk about Bonnie Nettles was the other half. The 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:45.919 relationship was a platonic one, not in any way an 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:50.640 amorus one. Bonnie Nettles was the older member of the pair. 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:57.960 She was a nurse, and she was interested in theosophical beliefs. 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:02.440 The Theosophical Society is perhaps not so well known today, 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:08.520 but it's an organization that deals mainly with giving lectures 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:15.160 on well, anything other than Christian ideas. Really, Nettles was 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:21.280 particularly interested in channeling, which is communication with spirits, some 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:27.559 of the spirits being extraterrestrials. She came from a Baptist 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:32.000 family evidently, but doesn't appear to be much interested in 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:36.640 mainstream Christian beliefs. The Theosophists were interested in pretty well 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:40.440 anything other than Christianity, so it was a way of 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:46.640 exploring other philosophies and points of view. Bonnielo Nettles met 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:52.400 Marshall apple White in a hospital. The circumstances of that 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.240 aren't clear. Some people say he was a patient, some 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:57.920 people say he was just visiting. We don't know for 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:04.680 sure that happened and in nineteen seventy two. Apple White 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:08.240 was a musician. He was a professor of music at 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:12.920 the University of Saint Thomas in Texas. His father was 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:18.080 a Christian minister, and he had studied or he had 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:22.680 attended theological seminary for a term, which is a bit 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.120 surprising given his interpretation at the Bible. But I was 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:28.960 at a seminary myself, and there were some people with 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:33.640 some strange views there. So anyway, when the two of 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.640 them met up, they decided that they had things in 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:41.120 common and that they had a special mission. And in particular, 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.520 they claimed that they were the two witnesses that I 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:48.680 mentioned in the Book of Revelation. So the Book of 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.839 Revelation is always a good book for inspiring all sorts 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:57.040 of different and novel ideas. They claimed that there were 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:01.479 the two witnesses. They started by trial traveling around the country, 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:06.159 leaving not saying to people sometimes they sick them in tupet, 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.400 saying the two witnesses are here. And they didn't make 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:14.800 terribly much headway that way. They did this traveling in 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:20.080 a higher car which they failed to return to the owners, 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:23.840 and both of them were in prison for fraud for 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:28.280 a short period. So it was evidently in that time 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:34.839 in prison that apple White developed his ideas about euphology. 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:40.279 And brought together the worldview that they're kind of famous 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:45.800 or notorious for. They got together again once they were freed, 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:51.520 and they started organizing public meetings, and the public meetings 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:56.880 said do you want to know about UFOs, they really 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:01.320 are here, or words to that effect. And then one 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:05.159 of the interesting things about their lecture series was that 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:10.240 they said, this is not a discussion about UFOs. And 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:14.600 that's a key thing I think about new religious leaders. 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.159 Things have never matters of discussion. The confident they know 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:23.760 and they are ours curiosity, And I think again curiosity 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:28.080 is a key factor in the development of Heaven's Gate 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:32.560 and indeed in quite a number of new religions. And 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.080 if you tell people that that's something is the case. 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:40.440 I guess it's the same in the advertising industry. Advertisers 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:44.560 evident they are better off saying could this be an 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:49.279 effective cure for arthritis or whatever, rather than saying, definitely 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:51.880 it is, And then people get hooked. They start want 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:56.160 being well Willner's work, and they joined to find out. 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:01.600 So I don't know exactly how many people attended these lectures. 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:06.440 I think the audience is vary depending on the venue, 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:12.040 but they attracted a following and they took them on 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:17.440 various locations where they camped and they became a community. 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.600 There were as many as two hundred at its peak. 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.600 Now that may sound a lot, but when you compare 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:32.040 it with other new religious movements, the Raelian movement, probably 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:37.000 listeners have heard of Ryl who does all sorts of 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:42.920 outrageous things and gets people going. They've got ninety nine 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:49.520 thousand followers at the last count, So by comparison, Heaven's 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:53.720 Gate was small. And the two hundred drops to thirty 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.520 nine who were the ones that finally committed suicide, So 0:07:57.600 --> 0:07:59.920 it was a very small group. It probably would have 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:05.800 they didn't do insignificance if that disaster hadn't happened. The 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:12.360 community dispersed. At one point they had organized their public meetings, 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.640 they had set up their camps, but then they were 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:20.000 told that the various members were to disperse and to 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:25.200 go and propagate the message whenever they could. And then 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:29.160 in nineteen seventy six they set up a remote camp 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:35.120 in Laramie and Wyoming, and that was when they recalled 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.920 the members of the group. They sent out words somehow 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:42.880 that they were reassembling, and people came back to this 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:47.240 camp and it was at that point that they were 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:52.160 given these rather strange names that people associate the group with. 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:58.160 They were called things like melody of They've got rather 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:03.160 strange spellings these names. There was a secord E. It 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.079 was the one that actually left the movement, Glinda d. 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:10.680 All The names ended in or d y for reasons 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:15.359 and are totally clear, maybe to sound kind of diminutive. 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:18.920 They were the kind of children with doors. They're kind 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.079 of parents that might have been it. It's also been 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:26.040 suggested that because the pair called themselves T and door 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:30.600 or D was a kind of contraction of door and 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:36.480 T T so ord why is kind of roughly sound 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:40.080 equivalent of the two names. We don't know for sure 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:42.560 what the explanation was, but they were all given these 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:47.160 special names, and then in the remote champ they would 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:52.920 organized into groups of two. Each one had a check partner. 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.920 The check partner, as they called him or her, was 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:01.280 of the opposite sex, but the relationship hadn't to be sexual. 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:05.440 They were a celibate community, and I mean some of 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:10.000 them had problems about celibacy. Some of them took drugs 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:14.400 to control their hormones. Some of them, a few of 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:20.079 them resorted to surgery, sometimes doing it themselves, whereby they 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:24.120 removed their testicles. I mean that must have involved quite 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.320 a lot of commitment to be willing to do that. 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:30.319 It would be extremely painful. I would guess they were 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:37.200 organized into these peers, and then there was a lot well, 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:41.280 I should say that in nineteen eighty five that was 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.719 the kind of turning point in the movement because in 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:50.240 that year Bonnie Nettles died of cancer. Now that's a 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.960 bit of a problem. If you've got the two, then 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:57.880 you'd left with just one, so what do you do 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:04.199 with that. The belief was that actually Nettles had gone 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:08.120 to this next level above human. That was one of 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:12.240 their key teachings. The next level above human the level 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:18.160 at which the extraterrestrials lived, and the idea was that 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.880 she had left the body, she was the first of 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.840 those who were about to do the same. They would 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:28.439 leave the body and be sent up to the next 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:34.400 level above human. And the belief system was that there 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:41.120 were the extraterrestrials occupied the level above human. There was 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:49.679 an adversarial community of fallen at extraterrestrials. They were the Luciferians, 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:55.520 and then there were the humans. Whose aim was to 0:11:56.080 --> 0:12:00.360 go above the human level, to this level above hum many, 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.040 but not everyone would do that. It was only those 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:08.800 who were tagged. They were especially chosen individuals that the 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:13.960 extraterrestrials had been brought together. So that was basically the 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:18.760 philosophy of the group, and that was the kind of 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:24.480 background against the mass suicide that happened in nineteen ninety seven. 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:30.200 What are the thoughts about why they decided to disperse 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:33.360 when they did and then come back. Is there a 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:35.000 theory about why that happened. 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:37.840 I don't think there is a theory about why that happened. 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:41.640 I think one of the things about some new religious 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:48.199 groups is that the leader can give orders simply to 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:52.000 test commitment. So there was a lot of that that 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.840 happened in Heaven's Gate. Apple White would tell them to 0:12:55.920 --> 0:13:00.960 do certain things that had no obvious justification, you know, 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:03.480 when they were in these camps, he would say to them, 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:07.280 the rule from now on is that no one must speak, 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:12.240 so they had to communicate in silence, and then that 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:15.160 wasn't working offly well. So apple White said, well, okay, 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.280 you can communicate, but only use one word for what 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:24.040 you want of your partner. So if you were cooking 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:27.880 eggs and wanted your partner to pass the eggs, you 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:32.240 would say eggs, and then that was supposed to be it. 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:35.920 The partner would know what he or she was meant 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:40.360 to do. So it's unreasonable behavior to expect the people, 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.720 but it's a kind of test of commitment. If you're 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.160 prepared to do that, then you've demonstrated that you're willing 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:51.160 to obey your leader. So if you tell the group 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.200 you're going to disperse, then you've kind of demonstrated that 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.800 you're in command. Maybe it was an attempt to kind 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.160 of spread the message there, again, we don't know for sure. 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:06.560 It seems like it's the opposite of so many of 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.959 the groups that feel the need to sort of sequester 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.439 people and have that kind of day to day control 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:19.680 and actually get fine people leaving to be traumatic. Did 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:23.240 you talk about or did they talk about why celibacy 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.800 was a part of their teachings? 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:32.600 Well, again, these things weren't matters of discussion. So when 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.680 you've got a u religious group, particularly one that's in 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:41.920 the community, then you kind of channel the command down. Certainly, 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.960 as far as we know, there weren't discussions about these things. 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.400 If apple White taught you to do something, then he 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:51.680 knew what he was doing. He was the kind of 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:56.960 messionic figure, so you don't question that. I mean, apple 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:01.640 White would say things like correct if I'd wore, but 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:06.160 he didn't really mean that. He really meant he was 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:10.920 right and he knew it. I think also these kind 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:16.640 of unreasonable commands, it wasn't something that was particularly Germane 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:21.200 to Heaven's gage. You get other leaders doing that. David 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.760 Koresh and Wakel would say things like you you mustn't 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:29.080 eat any chocolate today, and then that's what would happen. 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:33.480 And particularly if you're saying things that relate to people's diets, 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:38.560 that is quite an effective way of controlling people. So 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.320 you do tend to get this kind of control in 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.840 your religious groups, particularly when they're in community. 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:53.520 Interesting. See you had mentioned in our email exchange the 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:55.920 idea behind charismatic leadership. 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:01.400 Yeah, I don't think anyone really understands charismatic leadership, and 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:06.240 I'm not saying that I can understand it. The problem 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:10.640 about charisma is that charisma is not something that people 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:16.480 haven't got. Charisma has got to be recognized by others, right, 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.440 So it's no good me saying I've got charisma. It's 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:23.640 a pretty nobody notices that that doesn't make sense. Right, 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:31.160 So charisma, basically it's an ability to attract followers. But 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.920 that's sort of very helpful because it doesn't explain how 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.960 you can attract followers. So everyone has got to look 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:42.200 at the kind of ingredients that are in the charismatic leader. 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:47.120 And I mean, somebody's charisma might be a turn off 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:52.080 to other people. Certainly, the people that are held up 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:56.080 as charismatic leaders in new religious movements, as far as 0:16:56.120 --> 0:17:00.360 I'm personally concerned, they are turned off. I mean, we 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:04.840 all know people that we find really inspiring and others 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:09.879 are really not inspiring. Having listened to Apple white S lectures, 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.159 I would have to put him in the second category 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:16.399 from my point of view, the tedious, They're boring. He 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:22.400 gives a very strange interpretation of the Bible. Onward, he 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:28.280 knows very little. His teachings come from a combination of 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:32.800 this belief in UFOs, and then to that he adds 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:37.800 a kind of biblical justification that's derived from a few 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:44.000 accounts in the Gospels, some bits of revelation, a little 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:47.080 bit of Paul and I don't think he ever refers 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:50.919 to the Old Testament at all, so there's very little 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:56.080 biblical knowledge, but nonetheless his followers seem to have been 0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:01.800 impressed by that. Partly, I think to be charismatic, you've 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:06.880 got to have confidence. Psychologists have commented on a new 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:12.400 religious leaders have often said that they're narcissistic, that they 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:17.960 have a very firm belief in their own potential and 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:23.440 qualifications and status, and I think that's true of a lot. 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:28.760 I think, having looked at a number of charismatic leaders, 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.520 I think there are a few other ingredients that I 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:37.359 would add. You've got to arouse curiosity. As I said, 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.080 I think that's something that in the study of new 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:46.320 religions we don't talk about a lot. You've got to 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.359 kind of make people wonder if what you're saying is true, 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.600 but at the same time not question it. And then 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:56.520 if you can put that across to people, then that's 0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:02.119 part of being a charismatic leader. Controlling people, as I mentioned, 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:04.720 is another one. If you can give commands that they've 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:09.959 got to obey. I think also the scholar David Brombley 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:16.120 says that it's important for these leaders to maintain their 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:20.320 charisma so in other words, you've got to make sure 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:25.719 that there's nobody that assurps your authority. So in the 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:29.359 case of Apple White and Metals, they were the only 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:35.800 ones that had communication with the extraterrestrials. So that was 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.440 one of the reasons why they made it clear this 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:43.040 is not a UFO spotting group, because once you do that, 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.720 then other members are going to say, well, I've had 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:50.480 messages from the extraterrestrials. And once you do that, once 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:55.240 you democratize the channel of communication with the ETS, then 0:19:55.280 --> 0:20:01.720 you've lost control. In fact, Rile they leader of the Aralians, 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:06.400 he did have somebody that cleaned rivalship. At one point, 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.080 this particular student of his had said that she had 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:15.479 been in touch with the Elohim, the extraterrestrials, and Rail's 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:18.280 way of dealing with that was simply to say, you're out. 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:22.040 You're not part of the organization. So it's important to 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.920 maintain this chartismatic position that you've established. 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:28.879 So another thing that you mentioned was that you talked 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:32.520 to you know, quote unquote survivors, but people who did 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:36.560 not engage in the in the suicide and were sort 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:41.720 of interested in how they kind of framed what happened 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:44.359 and their relationship to it. You can you talk about 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:45.879 that a little bit, certainly, I. 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.840 Think gave you or I had had a group that 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:52.960 we belonged to had committed suicide and we haven't been 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:56.360 around at the time, we'd be thinking, gosh, I had 0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:01.280 a lucky escape there. But funnily enough, the three survivors 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.600 I've spoken to have said quite the opposite. They've not 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:08.800 said so we wish we were there. That they've not 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:11.840 said we had a lucky escape. What they have said 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:15.359 was that we actually left the group before the suicide, 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:19.800 and we did it voluntarily because we weren't ready for about 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:25.520 sort of thing. So they're still expecting that there will 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:30.680 be a further opportunity that they'll have. Now, the extraterrestrials 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:36.160 only arrive every two thousand years, evidently, so they're going 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:39.920 to have to wait a long time. So their belief 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.720 is that they will die and reincarnate, and their hope 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:47.280 is that they will reincarnate at a time when there 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:52.640 is the opportunity for the extraterrestrials to have tagged them 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:56.920 and to take them up to the level above humanly. 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:00.119 So it's a kind of hope they're saying, well, we 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:01.320 just went ready for it. 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.000 So they weren't spiritually ready, Like they didn't feel as 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:09.040 though they were committed enough or didn't feel like they 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:11.480 had the willpower that was going to be necessary when 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:14.440 it happened. What was their sense of what it took 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:15.119 to be ready? 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:19.960 Yeah, I think they again, I think they felt that 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:24.040 probably they didn't have the willpower to do it. Yeah, 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:28.240 that they liked the idea. I mean, perhaps they just 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:33.440 didn't want to commit suicide at that particular point, but 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.440 they're still very enthusiastic about Marshall Appelwhite. 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:41.639 Was the concept of sort of mass suicide and that 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:46.440 being necessary. Was that in sort of their theology from 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:49.040 the beginning or was that something that happened later. 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:52.840 It was something that happened later. I think they had 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:57.879 various expectations over time, because the Bible says that the 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:02.320 two witnesses are going to die, They're going to be killed, 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:08.640 but they will rise again after three and a half days, right, 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:13.800 So I mean that was roughly the period that Jesus 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:18.400 took from death to resurrection. So three and a half 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:22.440 days was the time scale that the Book of Revelation said, 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:26.560 Apple White had suggested at one point that they would 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:29.520 attract opposition, that there were people that would be able 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:34.040 to kill them, but that's what would happen. Now that 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:37.760 didn't take place. So what you have to do if 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:41.760 you're a religious leader is to say, well, not exactly 0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:43.919 that we were wrong, but it's going to happen in 0:23:43.960 --> 0:23:48.360 some other way. And eventually, when they were part of 0:23:48.400 --> 0:23:51.800 this community in the very large mansion that they bought, 0:23:52.320 --> 0:23:57.080 then they were progressively taught that they're dying and rising 0:23:57.119 --> 0:24:02.199 again would be the suicide. And then that wouldn't be 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:05.399 the end for them because although their bodies would be dead, 0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:09.320 then their spirits, so their minds, of ours alls would 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:13.080 be taken up and they would be given you bodies 0:24:13.119 --> 0:24:18.240 appropriate to the level above human. So that was the idea. Yeah, 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:20.160 if you tell people that you want them to commit 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:24.520 suicide at first acquaintance, that doesn't work. 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:25.080 Now. 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:29.119 I used to begin my lectures on this saying to students, actually, 0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:31.880 I'd like you to know something. I'm the Messiah. I've 0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:35.200 got a suicide plan for tomorrow at lunchtime. Who's coming. 0:24:36.320 --> 0:24:39.640 Of course, if you say that to people, nobody's going 0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:44.320 to come. And unless they're taking the nick and so 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:48.880 it takes a while to persuade people. And I think 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:52.400 the puzzle that I have is, how do you go 0:24:52.600 --> 0:24:57.920 from my situation where no one will follow me. I 0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:03.200 know thirty nine disciples, let alone persuade them to commit suicide. 0:25:03.600 --> 0:25:06.840 How would I move from where I am now to 0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:11.520 where apple White got himself and actually successfully persuaded thirty 0:25:11.600 --> 0:25:14.560 nine people. I mean, that's a puzzle. I've got one 0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:19.119 of two ideas about that. Part of the problem with 0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:23.080 suicide groups is that they tend to be groups that 0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:28.240 are closed. They're kind of isolated. I've actually visited the 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:33.640 Heaven's Gate site and it's fairly remote, well by British 0:25:33.720 --> 0:25:37.960 standards anyway. It's got a lot of acurage. I couldn't 0:25:37.960 --> 0:25:40.320 see exactly how much, but when you look at the 0:25:41.280 --> 0:25:44.600 pictures that were taken, it looks a very busy place, 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:47.679 but that's only because of a lots of ambulances and 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:51.480 emergency vehicles there. It's not on the main road. It's 0:25:52.359 --> 0:25:55.840 to our thinking. It's in the middle of nowhere. That 0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:59.720 are properties nearby, but they're very large properties with very 0:25:59.760 --> 0:26:02.840 large so if you wanted to see your next door 0:26:02.880 --> 0:26:06.640 neighbor you'd have quite a walk. So from our point 0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:10.600 of view, it's remote. I've actually been to Waco as well, 0:26:10.640 --> 0:26:15.199 and it's twelve miles outside the town of Waco. So 0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:19.040 again you've got a community that is fairly closed. The 0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:24.119 contact with them kind of every day at normal human 0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:28.680 beings is fairly limited. In addition, when you think of 0:26:28.760 --> 0:26:33.119 the amount of time some of them spent with Apple Wide, 0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:38.720 they weren't allowed to read newspapers, watch television, kind of 0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:41.199 find out in any detail what was happening in the 0:26:41.200 --> 0:26:45.960 outside world. Some of his followers spent a whole twenty 0:26:46.040 --> 0:26:52.679 two years without normal human contact, simply listening to Apple 0:26:52.680 --> 0:26:56.480 White all the time. Now, if that's your own resource 0:26:56.560 --> 0:27:01.880 of information, then you're going to observe it, you're going 0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:04.800 to take it in Probably you're not going to be 0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:07.480 in a position to argue with him, even if the 0:27:07.560 --> 0:27:10.959 argument is allowed to say, well, I don't accept your 0:27:11.040 --> 0:27:16.159 understanding of the Bible because religious literacy is not very high. 0:27:16.920 --> 0:27:21.440 Fewer than half Americans can't name the four Gospels. Now, 0:27:21.440 --> 0:27:24.440 from my point of view, that's pretty basic. I don't 0:27:24.520 --> 0:27:28.960 remember not knowing what the four Gospels were. But if 0:27:29.000 --> 0:27:32.640 you're in that country where you don't get religious education 0:27:32.800 --> 0:27:35.720 in school, so you only get it if you've been 0:27:35.760 --> 0:27:40.800 to church, and maybe you don't go to church. Then 0:27:41.200 --> 0:27:45.320 twenty years, twenty two years of healing Apple White, you'll 0:27:45.320 --> 0:27:48.200 think that that is the true interpretation of the Bible. 0:27:49.200 --> 0:27:52.720 There was one member that actually went on record as saying, Wow, 0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:58.760 I'm really impressed by T and DAW's knowledge of scripture. Well, 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:02.520 I mean obvious, she couldn't have known very much about 0:28:02.520 --> 0:28:06.640 the Bible to say that, because apart from anything else, 0:28:06.640 --> 0:28:11.040 he only refers to very veitue Bible passages, which in 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:15.800 chair pres in this rather strange way. So they get 0:28:15.920 --> 0:28:20.880 kind of combination of being in community, being almost isolated 0:28:20.920 --> 0:28:24.440 from the outside world, being there for a very long 0:28:24.520 --> 0:28:30.280 time with no kind of touchstone of reality outside the organization, 0:28:31.000 --> 0:28:35.880 and then that's going to make for a situation where 0:28:35.920 --> 0:28:40.080 you think, well, maybe this is right. The apple bouts 0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:44.840 the leader. So some people would say that's brainwashing. And 0:28:45.080 --> 0:28:47.760 I don't like the chair. We try to avoid using 0:28:47.800 --> 0:28:50.960 it because it's not what it means, but it's certainly 0:28:51.480 --> 0:28:54.760 psychological conditioning that you're subjected to. 0:28:57.880 --> 0:29:00.000