1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of iHeart Radio and Grin 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron macke for. 3 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 2: The best experience listen with headphones. This is a bonus 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 2: episode of season three of Strange Arrivals. Bonus episodes feature 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 2: interviews that I conducted during my research, but that I 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 2: either didn't use or used sparingly in the main episodes. 7 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: There were great conversations that, for one reason or another, 8 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: didn't make the cut, but I think they add valuable 9 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 2: perspective to the ideas we explored this season. I had 10 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 2: originally planned to do a couple of episodes during season 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 2: three on the Heaven's Gate group that committed mass suicide 12 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety seven, but as my research continued and 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: the season took shape, I realized that Heaven's Gate didn't 14 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: quite fit into the larger narrative. In the meantime, though 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: I had conduct I did two interviews with leading Heaven's 16 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:07,199 Speaker 2: Gate scholars, so this week and next we'll present those interviews. 17 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 2: There are plenty of podcasts and documentaries on Heaven's Gate, 18 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 2: so if you've seen or listened to one or more 19 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 2: of those, I think this will give you some great insight. 20 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: If you aren't familiar with Heaven's Gate, this will introduce 21 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 2: you to some of the issues surrounding the group and 22 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 2: what they believed. In this episode, I talked with George Crisidis, 23 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 2: who is an honorary Research Fellow in Contemporary Religion at 24 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: York Saint John University in England. 25 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm George Crosidas and I'm currently an honorary research 26 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: fellow at Yorks and John University in England. I used 27 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: to be Head of Religious Studies at the University of 28 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: Wolverhampton until I've retired in two thousand and eight, and 29 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: since then I've been doing quite a bit of writing, 30 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: mainly on new religious movements, and I published quite a 31 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: bit on Heaven's Gate as well as other U four religions. 32 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about the formation of 33 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 2: Heaven's Gate and what the two founders sort of brought 34 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 2: to it at the beginning? 35 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, the two founders when a man and a woman, 36 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: Marshall Heath Applewhite, known variously as Door or as well. 37 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: They the two of them assumed various pseudonyms born Peak, 38 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: Guinea and Pig and finally Tea and the Door, which 39 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: would talk about Bonnie Nettles was the other half. The 40 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: relationship was a platonic one, not in any way an 41 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: amorus one. Bonnie Nettles was the older member of the pair. 42 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: She was a nurse, and she was interested in theosophical beliefs. 43 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: The Theosophical Society is perhaps not so well known today, 44 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: but it's an organization that deals mainly with giving lectures 45 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: on well, anything other than Christian ideas. Really, Nettles was 46 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: particularly interested in channeling, which is communication with spirits, some 47 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:27,559 Speaker 1: of the spirits being extraterrestrials. She came from a Baptist 48 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: family evidently, but doesn't appear to be much interested in 49 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: mainstream Christian beliefs. The Theosophists were interested in pretty well 50 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: anything other than Christianity, so it was a way of 51 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: exploring other philosophies and points of view. Bonnielo Nettles met 52 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: Marshall apple White in a hospital. The circumstances of that 53 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: aren't clear. Some people say he was a patient, some 54 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: people say he was just visiting. We don't know for 55 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: sure that happened and in nineteen seventy two. Apple White 56 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: was a musician. He was a professor of music at 57 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: the University of Saint Thomas in Texas. His father was 58 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: a Christian minister, and he had studied or he had 59 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: attended theological seminary for a term, which is a bit 60 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: surprising given his interpretation at the Bible. But I was 61 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: at a seminary myself, and there were some people with 62 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: some strange views there. So anyway, when the two of 63 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: them met up, they decided that they had things in 64 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: common and that they had a special mission. And in particular, 65 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: they claimed that they were the two witnesses that I 66 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: mentioned in the Book of Revelation. So the Book of 67 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: Revelation is always a good book for inspiring all sorts 68 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: of different and novel ideas. They claimed that there were 69 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: the two witnesses. They started by trial traveling around the country, 70 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: leaving not saying to people sometimes they sick them in tupet, 71 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: saying the two witnesses are here. And they didn't make 72 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: terribly much headway that way. They did this traveling in 73 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: a higher car which they failed to return to the owners, 74 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: and both of them were in prison for fraud for 75 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: a short period. So it was evidently in that time 76 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: in prison that apple White developed his ideas about euphology. 77 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: And brought together the worldview that they're kind of famous 78 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: or notorious for. They got together again once they were freed, 79 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: and they started organizing public meetings, and the public meetings 80 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: said do you want to know about UFOs, they really 81 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: are here, or words to that effect. And then one 82 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: of the interesting things about their lecture series was that 83 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: they said, this is not a discussion about UFOs. And 84 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: that's a key thing I think about new religious leaders. 85 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: Things have never matters of discussion. The confident they know 86 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: and they are ours curiosity, And I think again curiosity 87 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: is a key factor in the development of Heaven's Gate 88 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: and indeed in quite a number of new religions. And 89 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: if you tell people that that's something is the case. 90 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: I guess it's the same in the advertising industry. Advertisers 91 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: evident they are better off saying could this be an 92 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: effective cure for arthritis or whatever, rather than saying, definitely 93 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: it is, And then people get hooked. They start want 94 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: being well Willner's work, and they joined to find out. 95 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: So I don't know exactly how many people attended these lectures. 96 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: I think the audience is vary depending on the venue, 97 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: but they attracted a following and they took them on 98 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: various locations where they camped and they became a community. 99 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: There were as many as two hundred at its peak. 100 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: Now that may sound a lot, but when you compare 101 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: it with other new religious movements, the Raelian movement, probably 102 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: listeners have heard of Ryl who does all sorts of 103 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: outrageous things and gets people going. They've got ninety nine 104 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: thousand followers at the last count, So by comparison, Heaven's 105 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: Gate was small. And the two hundred drops to thirty 106 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: nine who were the ones that finally committed suicide, So 107 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: it was a very small group. It probably would have 108 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: they didn't do insignificance if that disaster hadn't happened. The 109 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: community dispersed. At one point they had organized their public meetings, 110 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: they had set up their camps, but then they were 111 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: told that the various members were to disperse and to 112 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: go and propagate the message whenever they could. And then 113 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six they set up a remote camp 114 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: in Laramie and Wyoming, and that was when they recalled 115 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: the members of the group. They sent out words somehow 116 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: that they were reassembling, and people came back to this 117 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: camp and it was at that point that they were 118 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: given these rather strange names that people associate the group with. 119 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: They were called things like melody of They've got rather 120 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: strange spellings these names. There was a secord E. It 121 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 1: was the one that actually left the movement, Glinda d. 122 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: All The names ended in or d y for reasons 123 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:15,359 Speaker 1: and are totally clear, maybe to sound kind of diminutive. 124 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: They were the kind of children with doors. They're kind 125 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: of parents that might have been it. It's also been 126 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: suggested that because the pair called themselves T and door 127 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: or D was a kind of contraction of door and 128 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: T T so ord why is kind of roughly sound 129 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: equivalent of the two names. We don't know for sure 130 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: what the explanation was, but they were all given these 131 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: special names, and then in the remote champ they would 132 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: organized into groups of two. Each one had a check partner. 133 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: The check partner, as they called him or her, was 134 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: of the opposite sex, but the relationship hadn't to be sexual. 135 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: They were a celibate community, and I mean some of 136 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: them had problems about celibacy. Some of them took drugs 137 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: to control their hormones. Some of them, a few of 138 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 1: them resorted to surgery, sometimes doing it themselves, whereby they 139 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: removed their testicles. I mean that must have involved quite 140 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: a lot of commitment to be willing to do that. 141 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 1: It would be extremely painful. I would guess they were 142 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: organized into these peers, and then there was a lot well, 143 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: I should say that in nineteen eighty five that was 144 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 1: the kind of turning point in the movement because in 145 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: that year Bonnie Nettles died of cancer. Now that's a 146 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: bit of a problem. If you've got the two, then 147 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: you'd left with just one, so what do you do 148 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 1: with that. The belief was that actually Nettles had gone 149 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: to this next level above human. That was one of 150 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: their key teachings. The next level above human the level 151 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: at which the extraterrestrials lived, and the idea was that 152 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: she had left the body, she was the first of 153 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: those who were about to do the same. They would 154 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 1: leave the body and be sent up to the next 155 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: level above human. And the belief system was that there 156 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: were the extraterrestrials occupied the level above human. There was 157 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 1: an adversarial community of fallen at extraterrestrials. They were the Luciferians, 158 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: and then there were the humans. Whose aim was to 159 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: go above the human level, to this level above hum many, 160 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: but not everyone would do that. It was only those 161 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: who were tagged. They were especially chosen individuals that the 162 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: extraterrestrials had been brought together. So that was basically the 163 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: philosophy of the group, and that was the kind of 164 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: background against the mass suicide that happened in nineteen ninety seven. 165 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 2: What are the thoughts about why they decided to disperse 166 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: when they did and then come back. Is there a 167 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 2: theory about why that happened. 168 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: I don't think there is a theory about why that happened. 169 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: I think one of the things about some new religious 170 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 1: groups is that the leader can give orders simply to 171 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: test commitment. So there was a lot of that that 172 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: happened in Heaven's Gate. Apple White would tell them to 173 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: do certain things that had no obvious justification, you know, 174 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: when they were in these camps, he would say to them, 175 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: the rule from now on is that no one must speak, 176 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: so they had to communicate in silence, and then that 177 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: wasn't working offly well. So apple White said, well, okay, 178 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: you can communicate, but only use one word for what 179 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: you want of your partner. So if you were cooking 180 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: eggs and wanted your partner to pass the eggs, you 181 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: would say eggs, and then that was supposed to be it. 182 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: The partner would know what he or she was meant 183 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: to do. So it's unreasonable behavior to expect the people, 184 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: but it's a kind of test of commitment. If you're 185 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: prepared to do that, then you've demonstrated that you're willing 186 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: to obey your leader. So if you tell the group 187 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: you're going to disperse, then you've kind of demonstrated that 188 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: you're in command. Maybe it was an attempt to kind 189 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: of spread the message there, again, we don't know for sure. 190 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 2: It seems like it's the opposite of so many of 191 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 2: the groups that feel the need to sort of sequester 192 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 2: people and have that kind of day to day control 193 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: and actually get fine people leaving to be traumatic. Did 194 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 2: you talk about or did they talk about why celibacy 195 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: was a part of their teachings? 196 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: Well, again, these things weren't matters of discussion. So when 197 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: you've got a u religious group, particularly one that's in 198 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: the community, then you kind of channel the command down. Certainly, 199 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: as far as we know, there weren't discussions about these things. 200 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: If apple White taught you to do something, then he 201 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: knew what he was doing. He was the kind of 202 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: messionic figure, so you don't question that. I mean, apple 203 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: White would say things like correct if I'd wore, but 204 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: he didn't really mean that. He really meant he was 205 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: right and he knew it. I think also these kind 206 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: of unreasonable commands, it wasn't something that was particularly Germane 207 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: to Heaven's gage. You get other leaders doing that. David 208 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: Koresh and Wakel would say things like you you mustn't 209 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: eat any chocolate today, and then that's what would happen. 210 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: And particularly if you're saying things that relate to people's diets, 211 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: that is quite an effective way of controlling people. So 212 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: you do tend to get this kind of control in 213 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: your religious groups, particularly when they're in community. 214 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 2: Interesting. See you had mentioned in our email exchange the 215 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 2: idea behind charismatic leadership. 216 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think anyone really understands charismatic leadership, and 217 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I can understand it. The problem 218 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: about charisma is that charisma is not something that people 219 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: haven't got. Charisma has got to be recognized by others, right, 220 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: So it's no good me saying I've got charisma. It's 221 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: a pretty nobody notices that that doesn't make sense. Right, 222 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: So charisma, basically it's an ability to attract followers. But 223 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: that's sort of very helpful because it doesn't explain how 224 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: you can attract followers. So everyone has got to look 225 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: at the kind of ingredients that are in the charismatic leader. 226 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: And I mean, somebody's charisma might be a turn off 227 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: to other people. Certainly, the people that are held up 228 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: as charismatic leaders in new religious movements, as far as 229 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: I'm personally concerned, they are turned off. I mean, we 230 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: all know people that we find really inspiring and others 231 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: are really not inspiring. Having listened to Apple white S lectures, 232 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 1: I would have to put him in the second category 233 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: from my point of view, the tedious, They're boring. He 234 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: gives a very strange interpretation of the Bible. Onward, he 235 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: knows very little. His teachings come from a combination of 236 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: this belief in UFOs, and then to that he adds 237 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: a kind of biblical justification that's derived from a few 238 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: accounts in the Gospels, some bits of revelation, a little 239 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: bit of Paul and I don't think he ever refers 240 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: to the Old Testament at all, so there's very little 241 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: biblical knowledge, but nonetheless his followers seem to have been 242 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: impressed by that. Partly, I think to be charismatic, you've 243 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: got to have confidence. Psychologists have commented on a new 244 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: religious leaders have often said that they're narcissistic, that they 245 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: have a very firm belief in their own potential and 246 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: qualifications and status, and I think that's true of a lot. 247 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: I think, having looked at a number of charismatic leaders, 248 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: I think there are a few other ingredients that I 249 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: would add. You've got to arouse curiosity. As I said, 250 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: I think that's something that in the study of new 251 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: religions we don't talk about a lot. You've got to 252 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: kind of make people wonder if what you're saying is true, 253 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: but at the same time not question it. And then 254 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: if you can put that across to people, then that's 255 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: part of being a charismatic leader. Controlling people, as I mentioned, 256 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: is another one. If you can give commands that they've 257 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 1: got to obey. I think also the scholar David Brombley 258 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: says that it's important for these leaders to maintain their 259 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: charisma so in other words, you've got to make sure 260 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:25,719 Speaker 1: that there's nobody that assurps your authority. So in the 261 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: case of Apple White and Metals, they were the only 262 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: ones that had communication with the extraterrestrials. So that was 263 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why they made it clear this 264 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: is not a UFO spotting group, because once you do that, 265 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: then other members are going to say, well, I've had 266 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: messages from the extraterrestrials. And once you do that, once 267 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: you democratize the channel of communication with the ETS, then 268 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: you've lost control. In fact, Rile they leader of the Aralians, 269 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: he did have somebody that cleaned rivalship. At one point, 270 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: this particular student of his had said that she had 271 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:15,479 Speaker 1: been in touch with the Elohim, the extraterrestrials, and Rail's 272 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: way of dealing with that was simply to say, you're out. 273 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: You're not part of the organization. So it's important to 274 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: maintain this chartismatic position that you've established. 275 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 2: So another thing that you mentioned was that you talked 276 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: to you know, quote unquote survivors, but people who did 277 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 2: not engage in the in the suicide and were sort 278 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: of interested in how they kind of framed what happened 279 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 2: and their relationship to it. You can you talk about 280 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 2: that a little bit, certainly, I. 281 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: Think gave you or I had had a group that 282 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: we belonged to had committed suicide and we haven't been 283 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: around at the time, we'd be thinking, gosh, I had 284 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: a lucky escape there. But funnily enough, the three survivors 285 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: I've spoken to have said quite the opposite. They've not 286 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: said so we wish we were there. That they've not 287 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: said we had a lucky escape. What they have said 288 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: was that we actually left the group before the suicide, 289 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: and we did it voluntarily because we weren't ready for about 290 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: sort of thing. So they're still expecting that there will 291 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: be a further opportunity that they'll have. Now, the extraterrestrials 292 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: only arrive every two thousand years, evidently, so they're going 293 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: to have to wait a long time. So their belief 294 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: is that they will die and reincarnate, and their hope 295 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: is that they will reincarnate at a time when there 296 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: is the opportunity for the extraterrestrials to have tagged them 297 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: and to take them up to the level above humanly. 298 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: So it's a kind of hope they're saying, well, we 299 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: just went ready for it. 300 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 2: So they weren't spiritually ready, Like they didn't feel as 301 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 2: though they were committed enough or didn't feel like they 302 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 2: had the willpower that was going to be necessary when 303 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 2: it happened. What was their sense of what it took 304 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 2: to be ready? 305 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they again, I think they felt that 306 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: probably they didn't have the willpower to do it. Yeah, 307 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: that they liked the idea. I mean, perhaps they just 308 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: didn't want to commit suicide at that particular point, but 309 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: they're still very enthusiastic about Marshall Appelwhite. 310 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 2: Was the concept of sort of mass suicide and that 311 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 2: being necessary. Was that in sort of their theology from 312 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 2: the beginning or was that something that happened later. 313 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: It was something that happened later. I think they had 314 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: various expectations over time, because the Bible says that the 315 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: two witnesses are going to die, They're going to be killed, 316 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: but they will rise again after three and a half days, right, 317 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: So I mean that was roughly the period that Jesus 318 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: took from death to resurrection. So three and a half 319 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: days was the time scale that the Book of Revelation said, 320 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: Apple White had suggested at one point that they would 321 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: attract opposition, that there were people that would be able 322 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: to kill them, but that's what would happen. Now that 323 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: didn't take place. So what you have to do if 324 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: you're a religious leader is to say, well, not exactly 325 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: that we were wrong, but it's going to happen in 326 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 1: some other way. And eventually, when they were part of 327 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: this community in the very large mansion that they bought, 328 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: then they were progressively taught that they're dying and rising 329 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 1: again would be the suicide. And then that wouldn't be 330 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: the end for them because although their bodies would be dead, 331 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: then their spirits, so their minds, of ours alls would 332 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: be taken up and they would be given you bodies 333 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: appropriate to the level above human. So that was the idea. Yeah, 334 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: if you tell people that you want them to commit 335 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: suicide at first acquaintance, that doesn't work. 336 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 2: Now. 337 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: I used to begin my lectures on this saying to students, actually, 338 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 1: I'd like you to know something. I'm the Messiah. I've 339 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: got a suicide plan for tomorrow at lunchtime. Who's coming. 340 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: Of course, if you say that to people, nobody's going 341 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: to come. And unless they're taking the nick and so 342 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 1: it takes a while to persuade people. And I think 343 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: the puzzle that I have is, how do you go 344 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: from my situation where no one will follow me. I 345 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: know thirty nine disciples, let alone persuade them to commit suicide. 346 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: How would I move from where I am now to 347 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: where apple White got himself and actually successfully persuaded thirty 348 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: nine people. I mean, that's a puzzle. I've got one 349 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: of two ideas about that. Part of the problem with 350 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: suicide groups is that they tend to be groups that 351 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: are closed. They're kind of isolated. I've actually visited the 352 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: Heaven's Gate site and it's fairly remote, well by British 353 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: standards anyway. It's got a lot of acurage. I couldn't 354 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: see exactly how much, but when you look at the 355 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: pictures that were taken, it looks a very busy place, 356 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 1: but that's only because of a lots of ambulances and 357 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: emergency vehicles there. It's not on the main road. It's 358 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: to our thinking. It's in the middle of nowhere. That 359 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: are properties nearby, but they're very large properties with very 360 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: large so if you wanted to see your next door 361 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 1: neighbor you'd have quite a walk. So from our point 362 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: of view, it's remote. I've actually been to Waco as well, 363 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: and it's twelve miles outside the town of Waco. So 364 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: again you've got a community that is fairly closed. The 365 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: contact with them kind of every day at normal human 366 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: beings is fairly limited. In addition, when you think of 367 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: the amount of time some of them spent with Apple Wide, 368 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: they weren't allowed to read newspapers, watch television, kind of 369 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 1: find out in any detail what was happening in the 370 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: outside world. Some of his followers spent a whole twenty 371 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 1: two years without normal human contact, simply listening to Apple 372 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: White all the time. Now, if that's your own resource 373 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: of information, then you're going to observe it, you're going 374 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: to take it in Probably you're not going to be 375 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: in a position to argue with him, even if the 376 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,959 Speaker 1: argument is allowed to say, well, I don't accept your 377 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: understanding of the Bible because religious literacy is not very high. 378 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: Fewer than half Americans can't name the four Gospels. Now, 379 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: from my point of view, that's pretty basic. I don't 380 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: remember not knowing what the four Gospels were. But if 381 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: you're in that country where you don't get religious education 382 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: in school, so you only get it if you've been 383 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: to church, and maybe you don't go to church. Then 384 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: twenty years, twenty two years of healing Apple White, you'll 385 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: think that that is the true interpretation of the Bible. 386 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: There was one member that actually went on record as saying, Wow, 387 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: I'm really impressed by T and DAW's knowledge of scripture. Well, 388 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: I mean obvious, she couldn't have known very much about 389 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: the Bible to say that, because apart from anything else, 390 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: he only refers to very veitue Bible passages, which in 391 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: chair pres in this rather strange way. So they get 392 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 1: kind of combination of being in community, being almost isolated 393 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: from the outside world, being there for a very long 394 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: time with no kind of touchstone of reality outside the organization, 395 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 1: and then that's going to make for a situation where 396 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: you think, well, maybe this is right. The apple bouts 397 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: the leader. So some people would say that's brainwashing. And 398 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: I don't like the chair. We try to avoid using 399 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: it because it's not what it means, but it's certainly 400 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: psychological conditioning that you're subjected to. 401 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: It sounds like a lot of that stuff can be 402 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: applied to us Jim Jones. I think another through of 403 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 2: obviously huge mass suicide and the. 404 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 3: Threat he felt from members leaving, you know, and and 405 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 3: he had you know, in the middle of the jungle 406 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 3: and being conditioned by doing these sort of fake suicide runs. 407 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: There was a difference with Jim Johns, and this is 408 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: part of the puzzle about Heaven's Gate and Jim Jones. 409 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: Community went under threat. There was an opposing organization called 410 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: Concerned Appearance, and the trigger for the suicide was that 411 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: they had sent a senator out to investigate the organization. 412 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: So they were the community in a sense under threat. 413 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: But the puzzle about Heaven's Gate is that there was 414 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: nobody that was after them. There weren't opponents, and they 415 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: weren't anti cult people that were saying we want to 416 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: rescue our children. In fact, to went children. The aphrotage 417 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: age was forty seven when the suicide started. It's a 418 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: real puzzle in many ways. 419 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 2: My conversation with George Crisistas will continue after the break. 420 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 2: So when you've talked about a sort of a handful 421 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 2: of Bible passages that Apple White kind of used, was 422 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: is there any sort of connective tissue between them? Is 423 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 2: there some common theme or are they picked by random or. 424 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: They wouldn't ground them. There are mainly passages about tending 425 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: the soil actually, because one of his expressions was the 426 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: earth is going to be spaded under. So in other words, 427 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: the yeah, earth in its present form was at an end. 428 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: The extraterrestrials we're going to dig up the earth and 429 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: renew it. So Apple Boy would quote passages like my 430 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: father is the gardener and how we were the workers 431 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: in the vinyard. It was that sort of thing that 432 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: he brought up. Plus, as I said, bits of revelation. 433 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: I can't be called the exact passages, but the idea 434 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: was that the earth was kind of at an end, 435 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: but also the earth was a kind of vinyard that 436 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: may be tender and it may be radical transformation. 437 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 2: Okay, interesting. So what was the root of their belief 438 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 2: in UFOs. Was there something in particular that caught their 439 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 2: attention and I'm talking about Apple White and Nettles, or 440 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 2: just that they were in the culture and it was 441 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 2: something they kind of latched onto. 442 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a both Nettles had been into channeling, and 443 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: I don't think we know what sort of channeling in particular. 444 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: But certainly some people that do channeling of spirits find 445 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: that their spirit guide is actually someone in another planet 446 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: is somehow communicating. Now, it may have been that Nettles 447 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: thought that, we don't know for sure, but also there 448 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: was a whole ambient culture at the time. The movement 449 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: started in the mid seventies, So in the mid seventies 450 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: there was certainly an interest in UFOs and in space travel. 451 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: The Americans had landed on the Moon in nineteen sixty nine, 452 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: so big interest in that. There was a book that 453 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: came out. I don't know if theers will recall it, 454 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: Chariots of the Gods by Eric Vondanakin. I don't know 455 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: if you remember that one. 456 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah, and the show that followed it. 457 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: It was very popular, and what Dannikin von Danikins said 458 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: was that it wasn't just that there were people in 459 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: outer space, they had actually been here, and that's what 460 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: the Bible talks about. Now. I don't think we know 461 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: whether Apple White had read von Danikin or not, but 462 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: this was certainly in the ambient culture. A lot of 463 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: people have read that, but even some colleagues of mine 464 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: not only had read it but actually found it convincing 465 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: that when the Ezekiel and Delarja talk about chariots, these 466 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: are actually spacecraft that they're talking about. They visited the air. 467 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: It was a very physical interpretation of the Bible and 468 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: the world that Christians think about as heaven. There wasn't 469 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: any kind of supernatural world. There was a physical world. 470 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: It was just kind of far distant. It was where 471 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: people in outer space lived and they were about to 472 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: visit the planet, or we had already done so, and 473 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: that was the idea. And then in the cinema, of course, 474 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: there were lots of films that were very popular and 475 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: on television Star Trek Doctor who had the Daleks. I 476 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: don't know if they were very influential in terms of religion, 477 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,879 Speaker 1: but there was the whole ambient culture of the film 478 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: two thousand and one. Each year, I think came a 479 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: bit later close encounters. I think lots of us when 480 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: you saw these films and found them great entertainment, but 481 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: didn't attach very much by way of truth to them. 482 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 1: But some people did. There is some people did think 483 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: this showed that there were an extraterrestials And I've known 484 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 1: a few people that said, yeah, they've been here. One 485 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: thing that I think I pointed out in an article 486 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: I wrote on Head and Skate is that when you've 487 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: got a leader of a religious movement, they usually make 488 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: some plan for who's going to take over, because in 489 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: most religions, the leader accepts that they're going to die 490 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 1: and leave followers behind. So you get this with well 491 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: with the president Dalai Lama, for instance, he hasn't named 492 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: the success there, but there are non methods whereby you 493 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 1: select the next one so people know what to do, 494 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: or maybe a leader has got the right hand man 495 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: or a woman that is kind of ready to take over. 496 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,879 Speaker 1: With apple Bite, this wasn't the case. It was only 497 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: apple White. There were no other teachers that did the teaching, 498 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: propagated the ideas. And it appears he was also quite 499 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 1: seriously ill before the suicides of nineteen ninety seven, so 500 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: that perhaps indicates that he had actually planned to end 501 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:56,959 Speaker 1: his movement the way he did, because otherwise there would 502 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: have been nothing left. I would suspect that the rest 503 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,959 Speaker 1: of the group we wouldn't have known really what to do. 504 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: I think there's that aspect that there needs to be 505 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 1: considered as well. The other thing that's important about the 506 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: suicides is that they occurred probably exactly two thousand years 507 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: after the birth of Jesus, because nineteen ninety seven, I 508 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: think historians agreed that Jesus wasn't born in year zero 509 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: or the year one. It was possibly for BCEE, So 510 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: that being the case, nineteen ninety seven would be exactly 511 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:40,439 Speaker 1: two thousand years on. So around about that time there 512 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: were a number of groups that either expected an immediate 513 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: return of Christ or in the case of Waco, that 514 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: was the crunch point as far as the groups were concerned. 515 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: Was also the Soul of Temple where there were mistivious 516 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: deaths suicide, maybe murders. In that period. You were kind 517 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: of at the end of the millennium, and that was 518 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 1: reckoned to be significant in many ways for a number 519 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 1: of groups. 520 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 2: Is there something that I haven't asked or that you 521 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 2: think is important for people to understand about having skate? 522 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we've covered most things. The other thing 523 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: I would want to say about community religions is that 524 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: one of the incentives to join is that a traleish 525 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: you of decision making. So many people that live like me, 526 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: You've got to think, how do we add our living 527 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: or how do you pay a mortgage. What are we 528 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: going to have to eat today? Are these mundane decisions 529 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: that we don't have to make. If you're in the 530 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 1: religious community that is all organized the way Heaveth and 531 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: Skate was, you don't make these decisions. They're made for you. 532 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: You're kind of looked after. And apple White was the 533 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: kind of father figure, so it's almost like a reversion 534 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 1: to childhood. You've got your parents there that will make 535 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: the decisions for you. It's also the case that it's 536 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: not young people that join, and certainly not in the 537 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: case of Heaven's Gate. The average age, as I mentioned, 538 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: was forty seven, so I think the oldest was seventy 539 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: two and the youngest was I think twenty seven. If 540 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,720 Speaker 1: had a number right, you've got a large age range 541 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,720 Speaker 1: in the group. And unlike a number of religious groups 542 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: where maybe somebody has finished school and there's having a 543 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: gap year, we don't have so many gap years now 544 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,399 Speaker 1: in Britain. But if people had a gap year, then 545 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 1: there were things caught to do with it, and that 546 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: was quite typically how some people got involved in new 547 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: religions like the Unification Church, but that wasn't the case 548 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 1: with Heaven's Gate. These were professional people. There were people 549 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,839 Speaker 1: that were computer programmers. There was a gummy chef, there 550 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: was a nurse, there was a mechanic. One of them 551 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: was a nutritionist. So they were all professional people. So 552 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: it's very easy to think you must be really stupid 553 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: to join a group like that, But these people weren't stupid. 554 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 1: They made a conscious decision to join Apple why it 555 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: And they obviously found him convincing and people can be 556 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: convinced about all sorts of things, including wanting to commit suicide. 557 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 2: Strangeer Rivals is a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm and 558 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 2: Mild from Aaron Mankey. This episode was hosted by Toby 559 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 2: Ball and produced by Rima El Kayali, Jesse Funk, and 560 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 2: Noemi Griffin, with executive producers Alexander Williams, Matt Frederick, and 561 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:15,839 Speaker 2: Aaron Manke, and supervising producer Josh Thain. Learn more about 562 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 2: the show at Grimminmile dot com, slash Strange Arrivals, and 563 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 2: find more podcasts from iHeartRadio by visiting the iHeartRadio app, 564 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.