1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:05,279 Speaker 1: This episode includes discussion of sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: If you will place your left hand on the Bible 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: and I do solemnly swear. The jury then titled action 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: find the defendant guilty of the prime It makes no sense, 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must aquit. 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: We all took the same of of office. We're all 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: bound by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: to bear true faith and allegiance to the same that 10 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about 12 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 13 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: nothing but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: this is Sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. The reason 15 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: why we have free publication vacation is because we want 16 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: to create productive citizens. We want to teach children how 17 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: to contribute to the communities. We also want to teach 18 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: them about how to manage conflicts. We are trying to 19 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: keep our society going. So the way that a system 20 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: provides education to its children is symbolic of what it 21 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: expects from its children. If you are a six year 22 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: old and this has happened, who is handcuffed at your 23 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: school for throwing a temper tantrum by a police officer 24 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: and booked that school, district, that community, Our society has 25 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: made a very clear statement about what we expect from her. 26 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: You wouldn't expect to hear that happening to a preschool 27 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: or because who would do that to a preschooler? Who 28 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: would do that to a child? We valued children, We 29 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: recognize what our time and energy invested in them will mean. 30 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: But that isn't nearly always the case with black children. Hi. Everyone, 31 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: Today we're going to talk about the ways prejudice and 32 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: even racism can factor into the American justice system. This, 33 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: of course, is a huge topic, but we've had the 34 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: pleasure of working with the Georgia Innocence Project to hear 35 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: about their cases and the ways that they see racism 36 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: and prejudice play into the legal system and society as 37 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: a whole. People are working every day to fight these 38 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: biases and to create a more perfect system. But like 39 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: all of the topics we cover on this show, we 40 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: aren't there yet. And I hope the stories and the 41 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: expert as you hear from today will help shed at 42 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: least some light on this particularly troublesome aspect of the 43 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: justice system. We spoke with an axonoree here in Georgia, 44 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: Calvin Johnson. Calvin shared his story with us, his story 45 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: of being held in prison for sixteen years for a 46 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: crime that he did not commit. My name is Calvin C. Johnson, Jr. 47 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: And I'm the sixty first person to be asserated in 48 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: the United States of America. That there is first person 49 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: to be asonerated in the state of Georgia the DNA technology. 50 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: I was charged with the charge of rape in Clayton 51 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:52,839 Speaker 1: County and Puton County, Georgia. Back in these counties sit 52 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: side by side, and these rapes took place with a 53 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: close prosinity of each other. Similar try action. They were 54 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: positive the same guy committed bo pries. We asked Calvin 55 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: how he got involved in this case in the first place. 56 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: Why did police think he was a suspect. My dad said, 57 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: I opened up the can of worms and I put 58 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: myself in that position. What happened to me was not right. 59 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: It was wrong, but I wasn't a perfect individual, and 60 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: I had some runners with the law and I had 61 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: committed burglary, and that's how I got on the radar. 62 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: There's nobody thought but my own I made a mistake 63 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: as a young man and leave me. I learned from it. 64 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: On the day that they arrested me. I remember it 65 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: was a beautiful day. It was in the spring, and 66 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: I was coming home. I had been to work that day, 67 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: stopped by the gym, and I was living with my 68 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: parents at the time, so walking up the street and 69 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: my mom rode by and I jumped in the car 70 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: and she gave me a ride that went home, and 71 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: no sooner than I got inside the house, there was 72 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: a knock on the door. I got a little strange. 73 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,359 Speaker 1: Even when I got on my mom's card, something felt 74 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: strange that they's just some didn't feel right. As soon 75 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: as I got in the door, it was a knock. 76 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: Doom doom, doom, doom, doom, doom. I got rushed by 77 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: police officers, throwing on the floor and cuff and it 78 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: took me off and threw me into a cold, dark, 79 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: damp self by myself. I had no idea what I've 80 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: been charged until the next morning, and then they told me. 81 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: They said, you're being charged with charged great, and I 82 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: was basically shocked and surprise because I'm like, hey, I 83 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: didn't ripe anybody. I figure. I said, well, they're gonna 84 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: realize that made a mistake. They're gonna let me go, 85 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna go home just a matter of time. 86 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: At that stage in my life, I basically believe that justice. 87 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: I brought up in the middle class family and middle 88 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: class household. My father used to be uh he was 89 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: a first black state senator in Ohio, is also a lawyer. 90 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: My mother worked at the college. You know, I thought, hey, 91 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: you know that everything was gonna be just fine. But 92 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: it didn't happen like that. They put me in a 93 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: liveline up person picked out somebody else side and after 94 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: David to that effect. So I'm thinking, wow, okay, hey, 95 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: I'm going home now. I mean, I got all the sight. No, 96 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: it didn't let me go. So then they had another 97 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: person that came in. It was after they had several people, 98 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: and this last person supposedly picked me out. It seemed 99 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: some kind of strange in my opinion. They went ahead 100 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: and took me to trial in Clay County. And first 101 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: of all, we had a preliminary hearing. That's when they 102 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: asked questions. My lawyer asked questions, like, you know, how 103 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: was Mr Johnson identified the lady who was the victim? 104 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: She said that well, it was identified from photographs. He 105 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: asked with what kind of photographs were the color for 106 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: the black and white and she said that they were color. 107 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: So later on the police officer came in asked him, said, well, 108 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: did you show the victim of serious of photographs for 109 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: identification purposes? And he said yes. He said, do you 110 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: have those with you today? He can't, we see him, 111 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: and he pulled out a series of black and white photo. 112 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: I'm like wow, I'm sitting there shaking my head and saying, okay, 113 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: I know they're gonna let me go now, they're gonna 114 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: realize they made a mistake. But it didn't. It didn't happen. 115 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: I was wearing a full bear back then. She didn't 116 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: say anything, but mustache had a mustache here since I 117 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: was a teenager. What's going on here? This is back 118 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen three. In three they want to use the 119 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: DNA technology. So the blood sapple came back old positively. 120 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: I believe that's that's the most common blood type there 121 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: is you might be a positive and guess what, they say, 122 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: you're guilty because you're all positive. But the hair samples 123 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: came back and they did not match me. They matched 124 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: somebody of African American ancestry, but they did not match 125 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: Calvin C. Johnson you. So I'm like, hey, I'm all 126 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: over again, Like whoa, I'm going home now that I 127 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: get all exp but they still don't let me go. 128 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,959 Speaker 1: They indicte me, now that's coming time to go through 129 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: the jury selection. Maybe three blacks that they could selected 130 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: and give a take a little but of course all 131 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: of them were struck. So I ended up with all 132 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: white jury and the victim was white, and I'm a 133 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: black man. What are my odds? What are the chances? 134 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: And I tell people all the time if it had 135 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: been an all Chinese jury and it would have been 136 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,079 Speaker 1: a Chinese, are all Mexican jury and the Mexican victory, 137 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: what are the odds? The odds are totally statis. Striking 138 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: jurors because of the color of their skin or any 139 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: protected attributes like gender or race is a huge problem 140 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: and a big example of the ways that biased and 141 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: prejudice can creep into the criminal justice system. Everyone is 142 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: entitled to a trial in front of a jury of 143 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 1: their peers, and it must be a fair and impartial jury. 144 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: The concept of peers means that you need to account 145 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: for diversity. There are now methods in place, a type 146 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: of check called the bats and challenge that can prevent 147 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: a biased right like the one Calvin had, and we'll 148 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 1: go more into that later in the episode. They didn't 149 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: listen to anything, goes emotional things. You go to the court, 150 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: get in there. I have all this evidence, told my 151 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: innocence alibi testimony because I was at home with my parents. 152 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: My employer comes and he shows my employee idea and 153 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: testify that I had a full beer. Fact at the 154 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: fact that the fact that brought out, But it didn't 155 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 1: make any difference because that one dramatic moment. But they say, 156 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: as the person that committed the crime in this courtroom today, 157 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: and they're so, can you point that person out? Of 158 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: course they turned around, that a tear coming down to 159 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: their cheek and they point that Recolt me and said 160 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: he's the one, and the jury found me guilty. I 161 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: was sitting to light life in the Georgia penitentiary there 162 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: a year later, I did go back to the the court 163 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: again for the foot County case, because remember I said 164 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: there were two cases, and in Booton County it was 165 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: exact similar case. I gotta understanding and brought up my 166 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: character and everything, and they brought up the fact that 167 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: I already was convicted and so the odds were totally 168 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: against me now, but there was so much evidence point 169 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: towards my innocence. This jury here, which you had to 170 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: make up of seven blacks and by whites, came back 171 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: with a not guilty verdict. But even though they came 172 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: back were not guilty verdict, I'm still in prison for 173 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: Clayton County for this case. I spoke with Molly Palmer, 174 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: a lawyer and board member for the Georgia Innocence Project. 175 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: She's familiar with Calvin's case and can speak to the 176 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 1: ways she sees biased and racism play out from a 177 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: legal perspective throughout the justice system, and in Calvin's case 178 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: in particular. My name is Molly Palmer. I am an 179 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: attorney in Atlanta, and I serve on the board of 180 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: directors for the Georgia Innocence Project. I asked Molly what 181 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: inspired her to start working on wrongful conviction cases. I 182 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: was really shocked at the fact that wrongful convictions happen 183 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: and the prevalence with which they happen. I was a young, 184 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: impressionable law student, and you go to law school thinking 185 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: you're gonna be part of what they call a justice system. 186 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: I ended up going into what's essentially, at the time 187 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: a small, cramped basement office with a bare bones staff 188 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: and hardly any resources, and we were tasked with identifying 189 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: and communicating with potentially wrongfully impress and men and women 190 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: in this the criminal justice system here in Georgia and 191 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: in Alabama. At the time, we covered both states. I 192 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: think it was pretty harrowing to realize how many potentially 193 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: wrongfully imprisoned men and women are behind bars. The estimates 194 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: are are somewhere between three percent and five of all 195 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: people who are incarcerated are wrongfully imprisoned. I think the 196 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: system operates from a history of structural racism. But we 197 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: see these racial disparities in the system, but they're all 198 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: a product of this legacy of racial injustice that essentially 199 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: started with slavery and this idea of a racial hierarchy. 200 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: There was a belief that black people essentially were inferior 201 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: and they've benefited from slavery. Even after the formal abolition 202 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: of slavery, this thought persisted into convict leasing and this 203 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: idea of African Americans being presumed, they being presumed to 204 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: be criminals. And so what we see now in our 205 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: current legal system is that the idea of the burden 206 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: of proof or the presumption of innocence applies totally differently 207 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: based on race. We see that people of color, in 208 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: particular African American men, are presumed guilty. They're presumed to 209 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: be criminals from the time their children. We see disproportionate stops, frisks, arrests, 210 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: We see in sentencing that these men are sentenced too 211 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: far longer in prison than are their white counterparts convicted 212 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: of the same crimes. And I think the way that 213 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: we over incarcerate disproportionately affects communities of color as well. 214 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: There's a huge collateral effect to communities, and that can 215 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: be discounted either and when it comes down to exonerations. 216 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: Roughly cent of the US population is black, Roughly forty 217 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: of the prison population is black, and almost sixty percent 218 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: of all d nasarrees are black. I think that Calvin 219 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: Johnson's case is a great example, and what we saw 220 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: in his case is something that we see far too often. Essentially, 221 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: it's a case of eye witness misidentification, something that we 222 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: see I think in about sevent of DNA honorations, but 223 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: of those involved cross racial identification, and Calvin's case is 224 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: a prime example of this. We looked at eyewitness testimony 225 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: and the problems with cross racial identification in the last episode, 226 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: and Molly is right, it is one of the most 227 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:30,479 Speaker 1: common attributes in wrongful conviction cases everywhere. Calvin was considered 228 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: the suspects, the prime suspect, and I think what we 229 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: saw in his case was devaluation of human life. It 230 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: was a rush to judgment, and we see that with 231 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: individuals of color on a level that we don't see 232 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: with white people in America. There's a quickness with which 233 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: he was identified and the finger was pointed at him, 234 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: and he was going to go down for these primes. 235 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: Despite a patchwork of partial identification shans similar to Calvin's 236 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: case in Louisiana, thirty of their axonorees had trials of 237 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: less than one day, so we see an incredible swiftness 238 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: in convicting young men of color. The brevity of that 239 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,479 Speaker 1: kind of procedure shows just how careless we are. And 240 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 1: I think what it shows is that a lot of 241 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: these men, when you really think about it, it's not 242 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: as simple as they're targeted because they're black. They're they're 243 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: targeted because we don't care who the actual perpetrator is 244 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: because he's black. We as a society have not moved 245 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: away from this idea that inherently, if you're African American, 246 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: you're dangerous, and so a suspect standing before a jury 247 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: or a judge who's African American almost satisfies it is 248 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: inherent bias and allows us to render a verdict. I 249 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: asked Calvin about the impacts of his conviction on him 250 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: and on his community. It was it was hard because 251 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: it broke my family's heart. Broke my mother's heart. A 252 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: couple of months after that happened, she just she had 253 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 1: a stroke. It was too much strain on her because 254 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: she couldn't believe it. Part of my family, my naturally 255 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: file appeals and so forth. And there I am sitting 256 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: down to one of the hardest working camps in the 257 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: state of Georgia. I call it institutionalize labor. You call 258 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: it what you want, but it's all of this is 259 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: a formal institutionalize labor. It was a dangerous place to speak. 260 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: Nobody at this camp had less than twenty years and 261 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 1: we should work all around schwamp waters. And this is 262 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: in South Georgia. You can't even eat your food. That's 263 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: cover your food before you can put it in your mouth. 264 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: I'm seeing moccasons. I'm saying rattle snakes. There was a 265 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: violent society that I was forced into. I had to 266 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 1: make an adjustment. I had to be tough, the hard 267 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: in my heart that it changed my attitude and I 268 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: wasn't probably the nicest person in the world that during 269 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 1: those years, because they had a lot of frustration inside 270 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: of me. I mean, there was nobody who I could 271 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 1: really talk to about my emotions. So years go by, 272 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: years go by. I remember, you know, they wanted me 273 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: to get into this program called this sexual offender program. 274 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: Being involved in the sexual offender program might be okay 275 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: for somebody who's the sexual but in order to complete 276 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: this program, they want you to sign and the mission 277 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: of guilt. Now, I just came to a conclusion that 278 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,479 Speaker 1: Rabb died. I just rebber die in prison and then 279 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: just to walk out, I would not have a life 280 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: at all. My name is Ebony Howard and a senior 281 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: supervising attorney with the Southern Poverty Law Center. I work 282 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: in Alabama focusing on issues related to criminal justice reform, 283 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: specifically juvenile justice. Our work tends to focus on the 284 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: impact of the justice systems on black and brown people 285 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: and other people of color. Ebony Howard is also the 286 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: voice you heard at the beginning of the episode. She 287 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: and the organization she worked for, the Southern Poverty Law Center, 288 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: raise awareness about prejudice and hate crimes across the country. 289 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: Ebony's work has a strong emphasis in juvenile law, so 290 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to speak with her about the ways the 291 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: legal system is set up to interact with some children 292 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: more than others. The justice system as it operates is 293 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: a continuation of a system of slavery using black bodies 294 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: towards capitalism. Even after you have the Civil War, you 295 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: still have a backlash to it. And then you continue 296 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: on and black people go from being enslaved to sharecroppers, 297 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: and then you have the Civil rights movement, and so 298 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: they are definitely gains there. But if you see enslavement 299 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: is still happening in some form or the other, because 300 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: even once civil rights are established and black people can 301 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: vote and women can vote miraculously, you have a prison 302 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: system that is overwhelmingly filled with black people and also 303 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: brown people, and you see that black and brown people 304 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: are getting sentence at different rates. How is it possible 305 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: that black people and white people can engage in the 306 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: same conduct, but yet black people get longer sentences. It 307 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: is because that same value system that says that black 308 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: people are other black people are inferior, carries through because 309 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: it is woven throughout our history. It is woven into 310 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: the American fabric. People say, well, black people engage in 311 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: more crime than white people, Latin X people engage in 312 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: more crime. The answer is that black and Latin X 313 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: people are targeted far more than white people. We see 314 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: that over and over again. We see that with stop 315 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: and frisk, we see that with the charging practices of 316 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: district attorneys. The reality is that you can't say that 317 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: black people are more violent because the data bears out 318 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: that people are being charged for the same acts but 319 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: getting different In US, it is and the same thing 320 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: with our education systems. Why is it that when you 321 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: look at the presence of police officers, and mostly white 322 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: schools are integrated schools. You see that the officer just 323 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: kind of stays tucked in the back and you don't 324 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: really see him or her. But in mostly black schools, 325 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: the officers are there to police students themselves, not protect them, 326 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: but to police them. That is because when the establishment 327 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: looks at black children, when the establishment looks at black adolescence, 328 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: they don't see children, they don't see teenagers, they see criminals. 329 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: And so we train throughout this education system for incarceration. 330 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: I asked to have any to explain this idea called 331 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: the school to prison pipeline and what it means to 332 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: be exposed to the justice system at a young age. 333 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: I have met children in high school who were arrested 334 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: and maced and booked for getting into a fiet school. 335 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: Years later, I encountered that same kid at like age 336 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: seventeen in an adult jail. I see the pipeline. I 337 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: see how it moves, and I see how the way 338 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 1: that this system is run, the way that the values 339 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: that it's based on directly impact black people. I wish 340 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 1: people knew what it means for people to be involved 341 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: in the justice system. So the collateral consequences of being arrested, 342 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: even if your case doesn't go anywhere, if it's dismissed, 343 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: if it's a fluke, if you are arrested and fingerprinted, 344 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: the state has your identity, they have access to you. 345 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 1: Every time a criminal act occurs and they're looking for 346 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: whoever did it, you are in the pool of people 347 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:29,719 Speaker 1: that they will go to first. Apparently we have decided 348 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: that the way we want our justice system to work 349 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: is that we don't just lock people up. We have 350 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:42,479 Speaker 1: to punish them. So the punishment isn't just being locked up. 351 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: The punishment is whatever comes with being locked up. So 352 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: you'll hear people say often listen, they get what they get. 353 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: That is the consequences of breaking the law. You see, 354 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: let me be clear about what the actual consequences are 355 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: in an out of them a prison. Right now, Somebody 356 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: is being raped. Somebody is sick because they have diabetes 357 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: or some kind of chronic illness, and they are not 358 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: getting the care that they need. They are dying. There 359 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: is a seventeen year old in a jail seeing foul, 360 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: horrible things that will forever change his or hers brain. 361 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: When you talk about they get what they deserve. The 362 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: punishment is having your liberty taken away from you, the 363 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: unseen punishment that people don't allow themselves to imagine. It's 364 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: just absolute torture. If people were to allow themselves to 365 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: imagine it, like to play it out in their head 366 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: like a movie, they wouldn't be able to live with it. 367 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: And I feel like that if more people did, they 368 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: would understand how something drastically has to change with the 369 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: way that we run this justice system. In Alabama. There 370 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: are a couple of ways that kids can be tried 371 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: as adults. One of them is called transfer. It is 372 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: when a child under the age of seventeen can be 373 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: charged with anything, and if the prosecutor makes a motion, 374 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: then the juvenile court judge can consider that motion and 375 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: then transfer that child to the adult court. In making 376 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: the decision about whether or not a child should be 377 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: transferred to the adult court, the judge has to consider 378 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: a set of factors, but one thing that's listed there 379 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: is the child's demeanor. So when you talk about something 380 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: like demeanor, you've opened the door for all kinds biases 381 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: to live out their lives. So he's there because he's 382 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: accused of doing something wrong. Perhaps he doesn't want to 383 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: make eye contact because he's scared, and the way that 384 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: his fear manifests itself is to look down, and the 385 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: way that his fear manifests itself is not to speak up. 386 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: And he's wearing the clothes that he's wearing because that's 387 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: what everybody in his neighborhood wears. He comes from a 388 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: cultural context that the judges and policymakers who are in 389 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: positions of power don't understand and fear, and so he's 390 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: in this situation where you're expecting a fourteen year old 391 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: to translate for you who he is when you're the 392 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: adult in the room, like you are the one charged 393 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: with ensuring that you don't do harm to this person, 394 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: little pete, who are supposed to be thinking about how 395 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: to best serve not just kids, but people who are 396 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: involved in the justice system, people who are involved in 397 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: social services systems. Those people who are running those systems 398 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: cannot get out of the ingrained racist biases to see 399 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: people for people. I wanted to hear more about the 400 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: effects of the justice system on youth and what happens 401 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: when young people are put in the system. Early on, 402 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: I spoke with Ashley Wilcot, a juvenile court judge into 403 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: Cab County, Georgia, about the ways she sees racism in 404 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: her work with youth. I'm a child welfare law specialist. 405 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: I've practiced juvenile courts for many, many years. I now 406 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: serve as a judge into Cab County Juvenile Court. I 407 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: do a lot of consulting and speaking nationwide a lot 408 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: about the education behind our child welfare system. A lot 409 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: don't understand it, aren't familiar with it, and so my 410 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: goal is really often to educate about it. So I 411 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: just want to share a few statistics to set the stage. 412 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: So as you all probably have heard or no, the 413 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: United States has the world's highest incarceration rate in the world. Right, 414 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: nobody is probably surprised to hear that there's clear racial 415 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: impact as a result of that. Approximately of Americans incarcerated 416 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: are non white. Average American I think it's one in 417 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: twenty chance of ending up incarcerated. That's the average American. 418 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: If you break it down into race, Latino was one 419 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: in six rate of incarceration or chance of going to jail, 420 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: African American was one in three, and then the white 421 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: average was one in twenty three. Those numbers apply equally 422 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: to youth who are tried as adults. The big news 423 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: is juvenile incarceration rates have been declining, and from my 424 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: perspective with criminal justice reform, that's a good thing. So, 425 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: for instance, between two thousand and ten, the juvenile incarceration 426 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: rate dropped by forty so that's significant. But if you 427 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: compare that to school discipline policies and what you see 428 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: happening in the schools, that's going the other direction. So 429 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: for instance, since two thousand, the number of schools suspensions 430 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: has increased by about ten percent, So you're seeing in 431 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: schools that the discipline policies are increasing what happens to 432 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: these kids and increases how these kids then touched the 433 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: criminal justice system as a result of what's happened in 434 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: school as of twenty fifteen, and this was five years ago, 435 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: and it's still true today, and it's it's staggering to 436 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: me that this is true in our society, but it is. 437 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: Black students are three times more likely to be suspended 438 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: or expelled than white students, especially when you take that 439 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: into account with the fact that studies have shown kids 440 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: who are suspended are more likely to either be held 441 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: back a grade or to drop out of school. And 442 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: when those things start happening, kids they need to have 443 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: purpose and be busy, start getting into more trouble, even 444 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: if it's you know, just school pranks or something they 445 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: think isn't that bad. They get arrested, they go to 446 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: juvenile detention. It starts that process of ending up in 447 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: the pipeline to prison. You Know, the thing that I 448 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 1: really see that bothers me is I'll just give an example, 449 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of shoplifting. I've seen a lot 450 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: of shoplifting cases um in the last i don't know, 451 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: year to two years. I really feel like when they 452 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: get arrested, the way they've been treated at them all 453 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: as a herb of kids is different if they're African 454 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: American versus even if they are Asian or Caucasian. Right Like, 455 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: there's this whole approach to me that feels very very 456 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: different in terms of these are bad kids and we 457 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: have to arrest them, versus it's bad behavior that kids 458 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: are engaging in. The Thing that infuriates me the most, 459 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: not the most, but pretty high up there is when 460 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: you see these little kids who have been through all 461 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: kinds of trauma act out in the school environment, and 462 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: then you see them get tasered, or you see them 463 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: actually getting arrested with the handcuffs, or you see them 464 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: thrown to the ground and they're half my size. They've 465 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: been through things you could never probably imagine, and as 466 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: a result, we need to respond in a trauma informed 467 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: way so that the response that they get can help 468 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: them de escalate instead of escalating and ending up in 469 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: the system. M m M. Here's Calvin Johnson explaining how 470 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: he finally found a path towards exoneration. I got to 471 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: the point where I felt like I was just about snap, 472 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: like I was about almost lose my mind, like a 473 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: rubber band being stretched. And then later I heard about 474 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: DNA technology. I said, DNA what some guys have gotten 475 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: out based on DNA technology. There was a guy he 476 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: ushould come into the prison, his name Jim Honor. He 477 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: was a prisoner legal counseling project, and I told him 478 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: my situation. I said, you don't have to believe a 479 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: word I said. He said, let me just skeeve my 480 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: transcript and you read it. He said, man, this is 481 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 1: the worst case of injustice that I witnessed in my 482 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: entire time of the legal profession. They didn't have a 483 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: lot of preserve evidence at that time, and they were 484 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: actually going to destroy the evidence, and somebody, for whatever 485 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: reason changed in mind and he kept the evidence. So 486 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: he found an extraordinary motion for a new trial based 487 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: on newly discovered evidence, which means that DNA technology didn't exist, 488 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: and now this is a new technology that could possibly 489 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: prove that I'm innocent, and if that's possible, I should 490 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: be given a new trial. And then it defunded the project. 491 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: So I spent time writing letters and writing letters to 492 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: different people in different organizations seeking help. A friend that 493 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: I grew up with when I was a child wrote 494 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: me about the inn this is project in New York 495 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,720 Speaker 1: City and they looked at it and they said, wow, 496 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: this is unique. Here. We got one jury that gives 497 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: one verdict, another jury that gives another verdict is like 498 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: putting two rats indications on that experiment. Evidence was tested 499 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: and they almost used all the evidence up and it 500 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: came back where it was inclusive. Basically, they would telling 501 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: me, is is that Mr Johnson, you got a choice again, Well, 502 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: we just wait till technology gets better five teen years 503 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 1: from now and reach us was left because there's such 504 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: a small amount, it's probably gonna be used up, he said. 505 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: But there's one other option. He says, there's a guy 506 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: in California named Dr Blake, one of the best ristic 507 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: scientists in the country and maybe in the world, and said, 508 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: we can't send it to him, but the choice of yours. 509 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: I said, send it the thought to play, and it 510 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: came in November of nineteen showing that it was impossible 511 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: that I could have committed the crime based on DNA technology. 512 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: Now all of a sudden, they want to do their 513 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 1: own tests State of Georgia, so they want to send 514 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: it to the GBI lab, but do their own tests. 515 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: They do their own tests and guess what the results 516 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: come back? The saying I mean from the very beginning, 517 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: I told him that that with God's my witness, you know, 518 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: one day the truth will come out. And in nineteen 519 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: ninety nine, jif the truth came out, I walked out 520 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,240 Speaker 1: of the President Freeman and beginning to do life. Started 521 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: my life all over. Guess what I got out and 522 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: had to pay bills. I asked Calvin if he believed 523 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 1: that racism and bias impacted this case and helped cause 524 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:53,439 Speaker 1: his wrongful conviction. I do I do believe that race 525 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,800 Speaker 1: had a percent to do with with me being arrested. 526 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: District attorney, he was very powerful in this position in 527 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,439 Speaker 1: Clayton County at the time, and it's like they could 528 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,879 Speaker 1: care less about me as an individual. It's sad to say, 529 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: but I think because I was black, I would look 530 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: down as being less less of a human being, and 531 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: so they didn't care. But like a palm on a 532 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: on a chess set being pushed around, and I said, 533 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,799 Speaker 1: how can people just take and devalue my life, play 534 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 1: with my life like this? But he knew that in 535 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: Clayton County he could get a conviction. Clayton County was 536 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 1: predominantly white. The victim of white He knew there was 537 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: no doubt no matter what evidence I had, what showed 538 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: that that I didn't commit to cry, that he could 539 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: get a conviction anyway. From there, it was just an 540 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: uphill battle. Having a culturally diverse jury is so important 541 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: because then you have different people male, female, different backgrounds. 542 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: I think the trial are a lot fairer, I know, 543 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: And the perfect example is the fact that here I am, 544 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: I get found guilty in one kind of by all 545 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: white Jerry, I get found not guilty in another county 546 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: by jury makeup for seven blacks by whites, and that 547 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: that's not proof. I don't know what else could be 548 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: any more proof than that. Our government it's basically designed 549 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 1: the system over the years to degrade and humanized black brace. 550 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: That's sad because they've done it with films and movies 551 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: that deale it with laws two strikes and three strikes 552 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: you out. And now they got people incarcerated for marijuana 553 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: with with a nickel bag. Now they got life sentences. 554 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: As I said earlier, I stayed the institutionalized slavery, modern 555 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: day slavery. They got privatization, private prisons. Now that's a 556 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: big profit making open sensation. Guess what, you need people inside. 557 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 1: So what happens You arrest people, You come up with 558 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: laws to increased the amount of people being placed in prison, 559 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:15,240 Speaker 1: and it's a free labor force. The twenty But things 560 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: have they really changed that much. It's still going on. 561 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: I mean this has been progressed, been some progress, yes, 562 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 1: but prejudice still exists. Racial injustice still as if you know, 563 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 1: we all believe the same blood, we're all human beings 564 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: and we just need to make it fair, and we 565 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: need to make it a justice system, not just us. 566 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: I asked Molly Palmer from the Georgia Innocence Project if 567 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: there were ways her organization encourages people to take action 568 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: against racial bias and all sorts of prejudice in the 569 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 1: justice system. You know, we have to be vigilant in 570 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: terms of knowing who are elected officials are. We have 571 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: to elect those people that that have a demonstrated record 572 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: of caring about these issues. And I think we have 573 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 1: to continue as jurors, as citizens to realize how important 574 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,760 Speaker 1: our role is in the community and in the legal system. 575 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,959 Speaker 1: And if you get called for jury duty, I hope 576 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: that people walk in there, no matter who is sitting 577 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:24,359 Speaker 1: at defense table, understanding the importance of reasonable doubt and 578 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: what it means to prove somebody guilty beyond all reasonable doubt, 579 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: and to take that job so seriously and examine yourself, 580 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,359 Speaker 1: examine those feelings when you see who's sitting there and 581 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: your first question is do they look guilty? That's the 582 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: instinct and if you say yes, why, I think we 583 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: can start by being incredibly critical of ourselves and realize 584 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: that nobody is perfect and all of us have experienced 585 00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 1: some type of racism directed toward us where we've felt 586 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 1: it and didn't want to admit it. We're not in 587 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: post racial America. It's and we see horrible, harrowing things 588 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 1: every day that highlight the violence and the inherent suspected 589 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: criminality that we see in terms of people of color, 590 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 1: and we can't move past that until we critically examine ourselves. 591 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 1: I wanted to just touch again on how vitally important 592 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: jury selection is in the criminal trial process. It's important 593 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,719 Speaker 1: to have an unbiased and even a diverse jury. Calvin's 594 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: case is not the only one where racism and racial 595 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 1: biased have played a role in jury selection. He's not 596 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 1: even the only one. In Georgia, a man named Johnny 597 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: Lee Gates from Columbus, Georgia, was recently released from jail 598 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,879 Speaker 1: after a trial all the way back from nineteen seventy seven, 599 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: where he sat judged by an all white jury. The 600 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: prosecutor in his case systematically struck every single black juror 601 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: from the pool. In nine six, the United States Supreme 602 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: Court decided the case of bats And versus Kentucky. The 603 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 1: bats In case held that jurors could not be struck 604 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: simply because of their race. This ruling came after both 605 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: Johnny Lee Gates and Calvin Johnson's trials, but it is 606 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: something all new lawyers now learn about in law school. 607 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: It's so important to have a diverse jury with all 608 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,360 Speaker 1: kinds of backgrounds and life experiences to weigh in on 609 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,680 Speaker 1: these important matters of life and liberty. Whenever I have 610 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 1: a trial, I keep an eye out for any biases 611 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: that could come into play on either side for jury selection, 612 00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 1: and all lawyers should use bats and challenge is to 613 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,840 Speaker 1: call into question strikes made by on the other side 614 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: when necessary. To speak to the school to prison pipeline, 615 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: I just want to say that the legal system is 616 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,959 Speaker 1: like fly paper. Once you're in it, it's very hard 617 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: to get out of it, no matter how hard you try. 618 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: Recentivism or people returning to the justice system over and 619 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 1: over again is very common. Complicated and difficult probation and 620 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: parole requirements make it hard to stay out of the system. 621 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: All of these things have a huge impact on families 622 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 1: and communities. We need a system that treats everyone fairly 623 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 1: and doesn't over involve one group or another for any reason, 624 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: including the color of their skin. I hope you take 625 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,320 Speaker 1: Molly's advice to heart and look at who your local 626 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 1: elected officials are. They are the ones who can most 627 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:05,280 Speaker 1: directly change the way our system works. Next time on Sworn, 628 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,840 Speaker 1: you know you're manipulated by people. That's even my parents. 629 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,280 Speaker 1: You know, my parents never believed I was actually innocent 630 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,319 Speaker 1: of the crime. People ask me you forgive them. Of 631 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,400 Speaker 1: course I do. When you're manipulated by a power and 632 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,760 Speaker 1: a justice system that is supposed to be the last 633 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 1: of the line, is supposed to be the true sense 634 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: of justice, the true sense of what's going on, at 635 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,200 Speaker 1: least as closest we can get it. I can forgive 636 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,960 Speaker 1: anybody that has been manipulated. I can't forgive those that 637 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:41,879 Speaker 1: did the manipulated. Sworn is a production of Tenderfoot TV 638 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,160 Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. Our lead producer is Christina Dana. 639 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 1: Executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, 640 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams for I Heart Radio, and 641 00:45:55,360 --> 00:46:00,879 Speaker 1: myself Philip Holloway. Additional production by Trevor Young, May Sin Lindsay, 642 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,880 Speaker 1: Mike Rooney, Jamie Albright and Halle Beatall original music and 643 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,439 Speaker 1: sound designed by Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song 644 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 1: is Blood in the Water by Layup. Show art and 645 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 1: design is by Trevor Eisler, editing by Christina Dana, mixing 646 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 1: and mastering by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks 647 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,320 Speaker 1: to the team at I Heart Radio from u T 648 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 1: a or In Rosenbaund and Grace Royer, Ryan Nord and 649 00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:34,600 Speaker 1: Matthew Papa from the Nord Group, back Media and Marketing, 650 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: and Station sixteen. I'd also like to extend a very 651 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 1: personal and special thanks to all of our contributors and 652 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: guests who have helped to make all of these episodes possible. 653 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 1: You can find Sworn on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at 654 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: Sworn podcast and follow me your host, Philip Holloway on 655 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: Twitter at phil Holloway e s Q. Our website is 656 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 1: Sworn podcast dot m and you can check out other 657 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:07,879 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV podcasts at www dot tenderfoot dot tv. If 658 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: you have questions or comments, you can email us at 659 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,759 Speaker 1: Sworn at tenderfoot dot tv or leave us a voicemail 660 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,919 Speaker 1: at four zero four for one zero zero four f one. 661 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:27,480 Speaker 1: As always, thanks for listening. I'm walking around I see 662 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,920 Speaker 1: an armadala I'm gonna jump out my books because I've 663 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,799 Speaker 1: never seen a armadala before in my life. It is risk. 664 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 1: It's running across in front of me, looking like a 665 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 1: giant rap with an army helmet on and something. I'm like, 666 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: what the heck is this