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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm well, Paul, how about you?

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Speaker 2: I am doing great.

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Speaker 1: So we solicited viewer listener questions a while back through Instagram,

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Speaker 1: and we have we have a great list of questions,

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Speaker 1: everything from have you ever heard of anybody in a

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Speaker 1: fictional book patterning them they're detective after you? To what's

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Speaker 1: it like to have twins? So I've got an array

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Speaker 1: of questions, But you know, we're just going to kind

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Speaker 1: of take one per episode for a little bit and

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Speaker 1: to see how it goes. Okay, sounds good, Okay, ready, sure,

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Speaker 1: So someone wanted to know what your kids and my

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Speaker 1: kids think about having I'm going to put air quotes

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Speaker 1: for the listeners famous famous parent. I don't consider myself famous,

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Speaker 1: but I'm flattered. So that we'll start with you. You've

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Speaker 1: got four kids, so what and there's some more older

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Speaker 1: and somewhere younger.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. No, my two older kids, you know, they're I mean,

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Speaker 2: believe it or not, both of them, ones over thirty

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Speaker 2: and one is approaching thirty years old. I know they

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Speaker 2: you know, they weren't living with me when Golden State

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Speaker 2: killer case was solved, and all of a sudden, all

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Speaker 2: this public notoriety came in. So my oldest daughter, I

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Speaker 2: think she just kind of rolls her eyes at it.

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Speaker 2: My oldest son, he doesn't pay attention to it at all,

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Speaker 2: you know. It just yeah, I'm just dad to them,

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Speaker 2: my two younger kids, because you know, they grew up

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Speaker 2: in the house after I got this public notoriety, and

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Speaker 2: they would run into things like teachers at school would

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Speaker 2: recognize the last name, and turns out they had teachers

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Speaker 2: that were fans, you know, and I think that they

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Speaker 2: thought part of that was was pretty cool. And they

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Speaker 2: even had My youngest daughter had a couple of guy

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Speaker 2: friends that were fans, you know, and so she would

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Speaker 2: give them gifts, like like one year she had socks

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Speaker 2: with my image made on it to give to this

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Speaker 2: guy friends, just as a joke.

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Speaker 1: So they can walk all over you. Is that it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. And one of the funny things was

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Speaker 2: she had me, you know, like I have like the

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Speaker 2: headshot photo, and so she had me sign sign the

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Speaker 2: photo to this guy, and his dad signed a photo

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Speaker 2: of himself to give to me. So that was pretty funny.

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Speaker 2: But now you know it is it is interesting from

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Speaker 2: their perspective for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think my kids go between being really embarrassed

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Speaker 1: about it and then proud of me, and I think

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Speaker 1: it goes back and forth. One of them said yesterday

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Speaker 1: that a friend of theirs had seen us on Giant

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Speaker 1: Netflix on their big TV, and so sort of pointed

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Speaker 1: that out. And then they get the last name like

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Speaker 1: oh okay, and then they'll sometimes put it together. But

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Speaker 1: I came into their school, I did a presentation about

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Speaker 1: it was supposed to be about podcasting, but then you know,

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Speaker 1: the teacher said, you know, you could talk about your

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Speaker 1: own work. So here I am with a huge group

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Speaker 1: of freshmen, and I start talking about kidnapping and how

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Speaker 1: I handle that in a podcast, and I think they

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Speaker 1: sort of like, literally one of them gave me, gave

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Speaker 1: me the whole like hand against the throat. You should

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Speaker 1: really wrap this up at this point. So that's the

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Speaker 1: embarrassing part, I think, But I think they think it's

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Speaker 1: kind of cool too. It's nice for me because one

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Speaker 1: of them said, you know, you've kind of taken something

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Speaker 1: out of nothing and turned it into something, which you know,

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Speaker 1: I understand what she means, and so I think I

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Speaker 1: think that that's pretty cool. As long as I don't

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Speaker 1: embarrass them too much, they're fine. I can do anything

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Speaker 1: and they're fine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a mixed bague for sure, you know,

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Speaker 2: but they seem to have adapted to that, you know,

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Speaker 2: that notoriety and now they're they're both the younger ones

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Speaker 2: are both off at college, so they're not in the

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Speaker 2: mix of where, you know, I'm kind of known in

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Speaker 2: the area.

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Speaker 1: Do any of the four know about hashtag hot for holes?

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Speaker 1: You had to bring that up, Well, it has to

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Speaker 1: be part of it, they have to. I hope they

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Speaker 1: don't know about that, but maybe they do.

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Speaker 2: The younger kids for sure know about it yetto that's

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Speaker 2: and it's like, I'm aware of it. I don't pay

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Speaker 2: attention to that, and I never talk about that part

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Speaker 2: of me. But everybody, you know, especially this younger generation

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Speaker 2: who is so entrenched into the social media, they're all

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Speaker 2: aware of it, you know. So I'm sure the kids

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Speaker 2: have been teased about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry about bringing that. It's going to make things

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Speaker 1: worse for you. Well, this is a good start. I

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Speaker 1: like listener viewer questions, and we have a really great list,

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Speaker 1: so every once in a while we'll throw some in

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Speaker 1: and see what people have to say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be fun.

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Speaker 1: Let's get very serious. We are now going back into

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds. I feel like we've been in the

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Speaker 1: twentieth century for a little while, and now we're going

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Speaker 1: to go back to late eighteen hundreds. So the good

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Speaker 1: news is it's a really good story. The bad news

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Speaker 1: for you is, of course, what's the next thing. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to say? There's no photos, photos, not really now,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's got a good mystery to it, and

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Speaker 1: I always like these kinds of stories. We kind of

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Speaker 1: told a similar story, so I'll see if you remember

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Speaker 1: any of those details. A different city, but it felt

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Speaker 1: like similar circumstances. So let's do it. Let's set the scene. Okay,

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighty six, Boston, Back in Boston. I've talked way

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Speaker 1: too much about Boston, so everybody knows I love Boston.

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Speaker 1: This is in Boston's Chinatown, which is a stretch of

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Speaker 1: the South End and it was developed by Chinese immigrants

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Speaker 1: in the eighteen forties. So this is patrolled by the

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Speaker 1: Boston Police and in the late eighteen hundreds, as with

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Speaker 1: many cities, there is a tremendous amount of racial tension

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Speaker 1: between the police and whatever immigrant group is in that neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: In this case, you know, Chinese immigrant group is here

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Speaker 1: and they're running kind of everything, including a lot of

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Speaker 1: illegal activities. So then we're looking at kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: police payoffs and political ties. We're not in idyllic you know,

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Speaker 1: Upper New York State, you know, countryside. This is definitely

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Speaker 1: a major city, and there are a lot of opportunities

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Speaker 1: for people to get hurt or killed, just depending on

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Speaker 1: you know, where they're sticking their nose. Okay, so we

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Speaker 1: are looking at July eighteenth, eighteen eighty six, and there

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Speaker 1: is a woman named Kitty wilsh and she's walking to

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Speaker 1: Kwang se Keys Laundry, which is at five eighty five

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Speaker 1: Shawmut Avenue, and she's walking over there. It's only in

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Speaker 1: the morning. She's walking over there, obviously she's wanting to

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Speaker 1: drop off some laundry. And she sees the blinds are raised,

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Speaker 1: so that means that they're open, and she opens the door,

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Speaker 1: which is unlocked, and she enters and walks into a

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Speaker 1: horrific crime scene. So this is where we start, right

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Speaker 1: with all the blood. There is blood everywhere across the room.

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Speaker 1: Of course, we know that everybody's definition of everywhere and

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Speaker 1: how much blood is different, but right now we can

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Speaker 1: just say a bloody crime scene. And the victim is

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Speaker 1: a thirty eight year old man named Lee Ding Chong,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna call him by Ding. He's thirty eight

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Speaker 1: and he is the owner of this laundromat. He's lying

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Speaker 1: on his back in a pool of blood, and he's

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Speaker 1: near the front of the main room of the laundrymat

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Speaker 1: not locking the door, but just sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: in the main room. And just I think off first,

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Speaker 1: blush everybody who starts to kind of gather. The police

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Speaker 1: know that he's been just brutally stabbed to death, so

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Speaker 1: we have to get the time of death. We have

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Speaker 1: a medical examiner, and an actual medical examiner, not just

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Speaker 1: a corner, which is good news. His name is Frank Draper,

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Speaker 1: and they take Ding to the City Hospital Morgue. So

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Speaker 1: Draper thinks that his time of death was at about

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Speaker 1: five am. And I don't have a clear idea of

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Speaker 1: when Kitty Walsh walked up, but fairly early in the morning.

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Speaker 1: Let me just tell you about some of these wounds.

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Speaker 1: So there are between twelve and fifteen stab wounds two

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Speaker 1: and a half to six inches in length and depth

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Speaker 1: along the left side of his body. And there's a

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Speaker 1: theory about that they all appear to have been made

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Speaker 1: with a double edged dagger. How would you know that?

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Speaker 2: So when the knife goes, you know, through the skin,

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Speaker 2: you think about a single edged blade, you know, so

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Speaker 2: you have the sharp edge and then you have a

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Speaker 2: blunt edge. You can pathologists can often see where the

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Speaker 2: skin is separated, which edge that knife, the direction of

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Speaker 2: the knife blade itself, So you'll see a very sharp

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Speaker 2: v where there's a sharp edge, and then you'll almost

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Speaker 2: see just sort of a blunt edge to the upper

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Speaker 2: part of the stab wound, and what this pathologist is

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Speaker 2: seeing is that sharp v on both sides. Now, it's

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Speaker 2: also possible that let's say you have a stab wound

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Speaker 2: into the sternum. You know, you can you can see

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Speaker 2: because now you have this solid structure, this bone, you

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Speaker 2: can actually see the blade configuration from that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, he says, double edged dagger. There is a

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Speaker 1: gash running from ear to ear that severs ding's jugular

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Speaker 1: vein and spinal column. What's the space between like a

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Speaker 1: normal man, what would how deep is that kind of

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Speaker 1: a cut?

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Speaker 2: It's it sounds like that this this cut to the throat.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've talked about this before. All the tissues

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Speaker 2: in the front of the neck. Yeah, can be cut

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Speaker 2: very easily with a sharp knife, and so most of

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Speaker 2: the time with homicidal throat cuts, it looks like near decapitation. Now,

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Speaker 2: if the pathologist is saying that the spinal cord itself severed,

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Speaker 2: now that's significant. I haven't seen that. So that would

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Speaker 2: tend to indicate that there was a fair amount of

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Speaker 2: force behind the use of this blade, not just going

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Speaker 2: through the soft tissue, but now going through the vertebrate

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Speaker 2: in order to get down into that spinal cord.

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Speaker 1: Well, these injuries keep getting worse and worse. So I

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Speaker 1: told you about the spinal column. From the corner of

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Speaker 1: Ding's mouth to his left ear, there's a wound that

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Speaker 1: is so deep that it exposes his teeth and the

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Speaker 1: lower part of his jaw, as well as both of

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Speaker 1: his eyes have been stabbed with such force that the

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Speaker 1: knife likely penetrated his brain. And then there are some

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Speaker 1: more injuries. So his chin, his left chest, and his

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Speaker 1: left thigh are all stabbed. There's a deep slice across

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Speaker 1: Ding's right abdomen that exposes his intestines. And then we've

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Speaker 1: got what they presume their defensive wounds. The back of

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Speaker 1: his left hand and his fingers are also lacerated. So

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Speaker 1: you know, the medical examiner says, well, this is he

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Speaker 1: was fighting for his life, and that's that's the end.

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Speaker 1: There's one weird thing after this. But I want to

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Speaker 1: hear what you think about, you know, all of these wounds.

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Speaker 1: It's maybe it's so much, so much force.

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Speaker 2: When you do have let's say you have the victim

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Speaker 2: and they are defending themselves and now the offender is

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Speaker 2: stabbing with force with a sharp knife. You do see

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Speaker 2: like these larger incisions. You know, knife goes in, the

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Speaker 2: victim is moving. Now you have the incision. It's not

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Speaker 2: unusual like this gash to his face. You know, if

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Speaker 2: there is force behind that. It doesn't surprise me at

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Speaker 2: all that the teeth and the jar are being exposed

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Speaker 2: through this, this incision. The stabs to the eyes, now

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Speaker 2: that that's something the offender wouldn't have done during the fight.

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Speaker 2: That to me is sounding like the offender is sending

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Speaker 2: a message. And what is that message? You know, is

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Speaker 2: this a warning to others? Is this a warning to

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Speaker 2: his family? You know, it's almost like, you know, he

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Speaker 2: saw something and this offender is saying, you don't talk.

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Speaker 1: Here's the weird thing that I was going to mention

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Speaker 1: to you that I actually ended up having to do

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Speaker 1: a little bit of research on more research to figure

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Speaker 1: out what the significance was. So Ding wore a very

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Speaker 1: specific type of hairstyle called a q and it's a

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Speaker 1: very long braid that was worn on the back of

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Speaker 1: the head of a Chinese man during the Qing dynasty.

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Speaker 1: And you know, usually it's like shaved around the top

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Speaker 1: and then this very long braid. Are you familiar with that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds familiar to me.

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Speaker 1: Okay, he wore that and someone cut it off and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't him, And then I wanted to tell you

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Speaker 1: the significance of that. So when you're talking about a

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Speaker 1: message based on the wounds, there might be an even

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Speaker 1: a bigger message based on the fact that somebody cut

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Speaker 1: that off and must have must have known the significance

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Speaker 1: of doing something like that.

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Speaker 2: Well that, you know, my immediate question is is what

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Speaker 2: is the significance in that culture? You know, if you

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Speaker 2: cut you know, another man's cue hair off that braid,

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Speaker 2: that that must mean something. You know, that sounds like

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Speaker 2: a form of you're denigrating that man if you will.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a little bit of history where we have

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Speaker 1: to jump around. So during the Qing dynasty, men were

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Speaker 1: forced to wear these cues because they were supposed to

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Speaker 1: show loyalty to the emperor. If you didn't wear it,

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Speaker 1: then you could be executed. Okay, you know, now in

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighty six Boston, nobody is forcing Ding to wear

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Speaker 1: this hairstyle. But it was significant to him there and

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Speaker 1: there were people who certainly wore it. But because his

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Speaker 1: had been chopped off. It was also lying limply his body,

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Speaker 1: and there is a point that his body was a

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Speaker 1: little bit warm. So this was a big insult. And

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Speaker 1: then there's a twist on who might be doing the insulting.

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Speaker 1: But let me just you know, give your reaction to

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Speaker 1: that cut off. And then it wasn't taken. It was

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Speaker 1: laying on him.

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Speaker 2: You know, in some ways. You know, I'm aware of

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Speaker 2: a case with a serial predator in which he scalped

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Speaker 2: one of his victims, you know, and there's a different

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Speaker 2: aspect to the you know, some of the sexual aspects

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Speaker 2: of the predatory type of crime. But the scalping of

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Speaker 2: the victim is a way.

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Speaker 1: To like a masculate do you think or well, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, I think in Ding's case that might be part

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Speaker 2: of what's going on there. But this is to further

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Speaker 2: damage the victim, is I guess the only way I

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Speaker 2: can can say say it right right now? It so

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Speaker 2: with Ding and this his hair being cut off, I

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Speaker 2: mean that just kind of correlates with the stabs through

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Speaker 2: the eyes. You know, there's a message being sent. It's

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Speaker 2: obviously Ding's dead, So the offender feels Ding has has

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Speaker 2: done something that he shouldn't have up to a point

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Speaker 2: to where now he's being killed. But now a message

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Speaker 2: is being sent and it almost sounds like, you know,

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Speaker 2: he's the laundry shop owner, you know, did he have

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Speaker 2: to pay, you know, for protection from some sort of

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Speaker 2: organized you know, group, like a mob of some sort,

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Speaker 2: and he either failed to pay or did something else.

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Speaker 2: And now they're sending a message to the other people, Hey,

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Speaker 2: if you don't keep up with your payments, this will

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Speaker 2: happen to you.

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Speaker 1: So what I was thinking about was who in this

293
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Speaker 1: community would know the significance of the queue and why

294
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Speaker 1: cutting it off would be and so or like you

295
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Speaker 1: just said, sending some kind of a message, And certainly

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Speaker 1: you would think it would be so somebody who was

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Speaker 1: in the Chinese community. But when I started really reading

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Speaker 1: about this, I realized that it was also really rooted

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Speaker 1: in racism in the United States. So there was a

300
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Speaker 1: time in the mid to late eighteen hundreds where the

301
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Speaker 1: economy was taking a big downturn, particularly like after the

302
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Speaker 1: gold rush in northern California, and people were blaming Chinese

303
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Speaker 1: immigrants for that, and so they were heavily discriminated against

304
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Speaker 1: right and in eighteen seventy three in San Francisco, they

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00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 1: passed an ordinance that if a Chinese man who was

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Speaker 1: wearing a queue was arrested and put into prison, he

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Speaker 1: was forced to have the hair cut off. And so

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Speaker 1: then when I read that, I was thinking, Okay, maybe

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Speaker 1: not part of the Chinese community. Maybe somebody who is

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Speaker 1: so you know, full of hatred and racist feelings that

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Speaker 1: this is. You know, maybe there was a personal argument

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Speaker 1: and he really lashed out. I don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that would certainly widen out the suspect pool. But there

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Speaker 1: are people who hate it on both sides, is what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is where now it's it's the victimology. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, what is what is Ding doing and who

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Speaker 2: is he involved with? Is there something we can discern

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Speaker 2: about the victimology that might be able to narrow that

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Speaker 2: suspect pool.

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Speaker 1: So to add to that, in parts of California during

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Speaker 1: that time period, also there would be entire groups of

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Speaker 1: men anti you know, immigrant, anti Chinese men who would

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Speaker 1: force Chinese men to you know, stay still and they

325
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Speaker 1: would cut off their cues also, so this was definitely

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Speaker 1: a sign. It was a sign from you know, Chinese

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Speaker 1: people and this was a sign from you know, people

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Speaker 1: who were racist in other parts of the country too,

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Speaker 1: So that's significant. Like you said, it's going to be

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Speaker 1: interesting to see how this all unfolds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you have a very broad array of

332
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Speaker 2: potential suspects just because of the cultural aspect. Now you've

333
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Speaker 2: got the racism aspect. Then there's the interpersonal side. You know,

334
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Speaker 2: this could be an offender who has a huge amount

335
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Speaker 2: of anger towards Ding for whatever reason and is cutting

336
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Speaker 2: the queue off just as a way to because he

337
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Speaker 2: knows this was important to Ding. Yeah. No, and so

338
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Speaker 2: it's just further damaging the victim, even though it's after death.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me ask this because I hear overkill used

340
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Speaker 1: so much, and I know it's overused in a lot

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Speaker 1: of cases because you and I have talked about and

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Speaker 1: you just sort of mentioned this. If you have a

343
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Speaker 1: victim who's fighting back, moving around, you'll have an offender

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Speaker 1: who is i mean frankly freaked out and has to

345
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Speaker 1: stab them until they stop moving, which could take a

346
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Speaker 1: long time. And sometimes you said you'll see strangulation part

347
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Speaker 1: of that too. So does this read to you like

348
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Speaker 1: a personal vendetta? I know we mentioned the eyes already,

349
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Speaker 1: But does the rest of this seem personal, like what

350
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Speaker 1: they would call overkill or does this still seem like

351
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Speaker 1: I've got to get this job done.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you knows. As horrible as his injury sound, I

353
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Speaker 2: would say they're not exceptional from a you know, a

354
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Speaker 2: brutal stabbing type of case. If you do have the

355
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Speaker 2: victim actually fighting back for a period of time, there's

356
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Speaker 2: going to be more and more injuries that are being

357
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Speaker 2: inflicted as the offender is trying to, you know, gain

358
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Speaker 2: control of the victim. So overkill is something where the

359
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 2: offender has done so much more than what was necessary

360
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,160
Speaker 2: to kill the victim. That's not what's going on here.

361
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Speaker 2: The stab to the eyes, there's reason I focused in

362
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Speaker 2: on that because that is unusual. That's not happening during

363
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 2: a fight. The cutting the throat is making sure ding

364
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 2: is is dead, you know, and it's a it's a

365
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 2: deep cut, you know, going into into the spinal column.

366
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Speaker 2: But the other the other injuries, you know, that's sometimes

367
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,359
Speaker 2: what you commonly see. It's you know a lot of

368
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,520
Speaker 2: people just see stabs, you know, and you think, oh,

369
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,200
Speaker 2: they've got these little stab wounds. Well, no, you start

370
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 2: getting brutal types of incisive injuries to forearms or in

371
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 2: the abdomen, has victim moves and sometimes you can get

372
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 2: what looks like evisceration. It's just that the abdominal wall

373
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,320
Speaker 2: has been compromised and it's not a purposeful thing that

374
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Speaker 2: the offender is doing. So right now, I mean, yeah,

375
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Speaker 2: it's a brutal stabbing, so to speak, but it's not

376
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 2: an exceptional type of case where I'm going to go, Yeah,

377
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 2: this offender was going way overboard in terms of the

378
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 2: amount of injuries inflicted on ding.

379
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Speaker 1: Would you expect this offender to have the knicks, cuts

380
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 1: and all of that from you know, working with a

381
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 1: knife that has so much blood that it slips and

382
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,359
Speaker 1: cuts the blade, which we hear about that a lot.

383
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,120
Speaker 1: Let's assume this is somebody who's not wearing gloves. Fingerprints

384
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: are not quite a thing. Yet, what do you think.

385
00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,439
Speaker 2: Well, with a stabbing, there's always a possibility. You always

386
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 2: have to consider the possibility that the offender himself got cut.

387
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 2: And this is you know one that you brought up

388
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 2: is sometimes the knife hits bone and now the offender's

389
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 2: you know, hand slips off the handle down onto the

390
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 2: blade in this particular case, I think the more likely

391
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 2: scenario of the offender being cut is the offenders grabbing

392
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 2: onto Ding. He's got a control hand, and Ding's fighting

393
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 2: and the offender's trying to stab. He may cut his

394
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: own hand, you know, as he's doing the stabbing. So

395
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 2: that's a common way for the offenders to get cut themselves.

396
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 2: And so this is where the blood Interpreting the blood

397
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 2: patterns at the scene becomes important. You know, do you

398
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 2: have a dripped trail as the offender is now, you know,

399
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 2: moving away from you know, the victim himself.

400
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: Well, you know, the way they're describing it is there's

401
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 1: blood everywhere. I don't see a mention of a specific

402
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 1: trail and this is a small laundry mat too. Let

403
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,479
Speaker 1: me see if there's anything more heading into this. So

404
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,679
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you about what they think the

405
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,239
Speaker 1: motive could be and then the weapon, and then we

406
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: have an investigator who tries to sequence the events and

407
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 1: I want to see if it matches up with what

408
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 1: you would think is what happened. Okay, So as they're

409
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 1: examining his body before they took it to the medical

410
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:23,640
Speaker 1: examiner's office, they look around the laundry mat is totally ransacked.

411
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 1: So Ding had a trunk and it had been dragged

412
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: from the back bedroom where he stayed into the main

413
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 1: laundry area and all of its contents were on the floor.

414
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 1: So there were sown garments that had bloody fingerprints. There

415
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: were valuables that were once in the chest were gone.

416
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,439
Speaker 1: I mean, these were probably trinkets. It could be jewels,

417
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: who knows. But there was thirty four American dollars also

418
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: in his money drawer the laundry maat. That's about eleven

419
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 1: hundred dollars today. That's a lot of money, and that

420
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: got missed so that the thief didn't take it. And

421
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: this is a money drawer, which would have been obvious

422
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 1: to a thief, you know, working in a business. So

423
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: we've got that aspect. Then they're trying to find the weapon,

424
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: so you know, they're looking for this double edged dagger,

425
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 1: I think is what it was described as. The Next day,

426
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: they're searching more in the laundromat bathroom and there's a

427
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 1: large ash heap where I guess he would be burning

428
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: stuff in a city, and they find a carving knife.

429
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: It's about six inches long two inches wide, but it's new,

430
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: and it's sharp, and only the handle is charred. So

431
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 1: they hand it over to doctor Draper, who by this

432
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: time is you know, looked at all of these injuries

433
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 1: and he compares it to the jagged edges and he said,

434
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: this is not the knife. Is that possible? I mean,

435
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: can he definitively say this is not the same knife

436
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: without a blood test or anything?

437
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 2: Right, I would say, if that's just a single bladed knife,

438
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 2: and he is spot on accurate in terms of it's

439
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: a double edged blade that was used to stab Ding,

440
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 2: then I'd say, yeah, he's you can absolutely do that elimination.

441
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 2: You also just depending on the you know, where the

442
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 2: stabs are occurring on Ding's body, you can get a sense,

443
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 2: you know, for the blade length as well as the

444
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: width of the blade. Then you can't really do that,

445
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: let's say, with stab wounds to the abdomen, because that's

446
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 2: soft tissue that it presses and it can make the

447
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 2: blade look longer than what it is. But if you

448
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 2: have stab wounds to the chest, you can that. Pathologists

449
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 2: will measure that to depth and say it's at least

450
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 2: a you know, a blade this long six inches because

451
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: the chest isn't compressing down, and so that blade has

452
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 2: to be at least that long to go six inches

453
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 2: into the chest.

454
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 1: If it has hit the spinal column and makes like

455
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 1: teeth marks in it. Are you able to definitively match

456
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: a blade that you find and just say, I can't

457
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: say for sure this is the blade, but but you know,

458
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: well it matches up kind of like you know, matching

459
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: teeth marks.

460
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: So are you talking about let's say a serrated blade, Yes, yeah, okay,

461
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 2: not necessarily, you know, like doing what we would call

462
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: a tool mark comparison. Let's say, you know, you have

463
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 2: some marks on bone to the blade, maybe you can

464
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 2: get a sense if it's just hit the bone just right.

465
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 2: In terms of the serrated pattern, what I've seen is

466
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 2: where a serrated blade has been used to scrape along

467
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 2: the side of the victim's face. And so I could

468
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 2: clearly see I've got a pattern of three teeth, a gap,

469
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 2: two teeth, a gap, three teeth.

470
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: You know.

471
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: So there are times, depending on the case, where a

472
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 2: pathologist or a forensic examiner can determine additional characteristics of

473
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: the knife.

474
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,719
Speaker 1: So let me tell you about the layout of this place.

475
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: There's the laundry area. Yeah, that's public in the laundry area,

476
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: or sort of like window sills that are really long

477
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: and wide, because he had very big windows, so sometimes

478
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: he would close the blinds and he would sleep on

479
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: those window sills.

480
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 2: Wow. Okay.

481
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 1: He also had a couch in the bedroom area. He

482
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: didn't have a bed, and so you know that was

483
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 1: back there. The theory that this captain who walks in

484
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: on this says is that because of almost all of

485
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: the wounds, I'm sure you picked up on this on

486
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: his left hand side, so it's like stab wounds up

487
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: and down on his thigh. There's a defense wound on

488
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: his left hand. The cut that exposes the teeth from

489
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 1: the jaws of the ear is on the left side.

490
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: The eyes are of course both but and then there's

491
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: the cut across the jugular vein. But the captain's theory

492
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,719
Speaker 1: is that Ding was sleeping on the window sill at

493
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: the front, and then of course he's found at the front.

494
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: Does that make sense to you.

495
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it very very well. Could you know he's got

496
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 2: he's sleeping on his right side, so as left side

497
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 2: is exposed, you know, the offender comes in and starts

498
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 2: stabbing and stabbings can occur very very quickly. Now with

499
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 2: the types of incisive injuries, you know, I would be

500
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: looking for, you know, the blood patterns that would suggest

501
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: that Ling was laying down on that windowsill before being

502
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: moved or moving himself off the windowsill during a fight

503
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 2: with the offender. That's one possibility. I was also thinking,

504
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 2: you know, if Ding is facing the offender, the offender's

505
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 2: using his left hand to control Ding and is now

506
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: coming right handed and now is doing most of the

507
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: stabs to the left side of Ding's body, that's another possibility.

508
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: So, you know, I think what's interesting about this scenario,

509
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: and the sequencing seems very muddled to me, is when

510
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: Ding is found, the blinds are up, the door is unlocked,

511
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: it's like he's open for business. He's found there all bloodied,

512
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: and Captain White believes that this is somebody that Ding knew,

513
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: That this wasn't somebody who just pushed his way in.

514
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: He believed that this would have been somebody that Ding knew.

515
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: And Ding said, it got late, you can sleep on

516
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: my couch and I'll sleep on the window. So that

517
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: wasn't usual that he would sleep on the window. So

518
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: because he had a couch, but White thinks that that

519
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: would account for number one. He was obviously maybe he

520
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: was sleeping on his right hand side, and that's why

521
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: all the wounds are on the left. And then that's

522
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: how the killer would have gotten in. I don't know

523
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: why he wouldn't have drawn the blinds. But if this

524
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: really happened at four or five in the morning, and

525
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: this was not a busy street, maybe no one was

526
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: out there and he and this was a spur of

527
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: the moment thing, you know. I don't know, but that

528
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: right now is the working theory. This is someone he knew,

529
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: that he let in before he closed up for the night,

530
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: and sometime in the middle of the night this person

531
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: stuck up and killed him.

532
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm not liking that that theory, just

533
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: because of the messaging that the offender is doing, I

534
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: would lean more towards Ding had let the offender in.

535
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,479
Speaker 2: Possibly didn't have a choice, because this offender is coming

536
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: over and over again like under you know, sort of

537
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 2: the hypothetical scenario where Ding owes this this money you

538
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 2: know has to pay you know, twenty dollars every week

539
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: or something. You know, so this is where you know,

540
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: with the blinds being open, what time does Ding normally

541
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 2: get up and start getting the you know, the shop

542
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 2: ready for business that day? That may have just been

543
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: something Ding had done. And then this guy, the offender,

544
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 2: comes there, you know, to collect the debt, and Ding

545
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: doesn't have the money, and the offender goes off on him.

546
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, the idea was also that when the police reported

547
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: there that his body was still warm. But it's also July.

548
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we don't know even July in

549
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: the morning in Boston could be hot. So I'm thinking

550
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: about the five Is that a logical time for him

551
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: to get up and it could be.

552
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: For sure, Yeah, I would think so far for somebody

553
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: running their own business, it seems like, yeah, they're going

554
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 2: to take a couple hours just to kind of get

555
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: the shop set up for both interfacing with the customers

556
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 2: but also with what they're doing in the back, you know,

557
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: doing all the laundry.

558
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: So you know, White's idea is that this is somebody

559
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: who personally knows and this is a vendetta or rage

560
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: or something like that. But it sounds like we need

561
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: to stay more open minded kind of just maybe the

562
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: sequencing is not what White thinks it is.

563
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think so. I just the messaging

564
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 2: is really what bugs me. For Let's say it's a

565
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 2: friend that Ding is letting sleep overnight, and then this

566
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 2: friend gets up and goes off on Ding and now

567
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: you know, stabs him in the eyes and cuts his

568
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: que off to send a message. I don't know. I'm

569
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 2: not liking it right now.

570
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: All right, Well we need to learn more about Ding.

571
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: So you stayed out of trouble. He immigrated here through

572
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: San Francisco from China six years earlier, so he left

573
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: behind a wife and a young child so he could

574
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: make money and eventually come home to work, which now

575
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,719
Speaker 1: seems sort of heartless, right, but that was very common,

576
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: and his intention was to go back to China. So

577
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: he worked at this laundrymat for three years. He saved money,

578
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,959
Speaker 1: and then he bought it from the owner and he

579
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: actually kept the name, which was nice. And he was

580
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: well liked in the community. You know, everybody knew who

581
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: he was. He smoked outside and would talk to the kids,

582
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: you know, and he would lend people money in need.

583
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: But when I read that, the first thing I thought

584
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: of was, Okay, so people know he has money if

585
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: he's lending out money and that's problematic, right for sure.

586
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,959
Speaker 2: But I think my guess is is that the Chinese

587
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: immigrants probably didn't trust the banking system here, right, So

588
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,719
Speaker 2: I would think that many of these shops probably had

589
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: large amounts of cash, or the residents that were there

590
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: staying had large mounts.

591
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: A cash yep, absolutely well on a laundry maat certainly

592
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: would this gets to me to be really interesting just

593
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: as we see kind of you know, his role in

594
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: the community was important, and the police are taking this

595
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: very seriously, which is good because sometimes we have police

596
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: who don't take it very seriously. Okay, Llwell liked in

597
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: the community. People really you know, like leaned on him

598
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: when they needed money. But he was wrapping things up,

599
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: so he wanted to go home. He was a month

600
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: or so away when he was murdered from having enough

601
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: money to be able to go back to China, and

602
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: that was the plan. So he had told his cousin,

603
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,959
Speaker 1: who is a guy named Sam Singh, who is a

604
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: local bookkeeper you know, in Chinatown. He told his cousin

605
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: that he had saved four hundred dollars and that he

606
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: was going to get another one hundred dollars by the

607
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: end of the month, basically right before he was murdered,

608
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: so total that would be seventeen grand today. So he

609
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: planned to sell the laundrymat even more money and then

610
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,959
Speaker 1: go home to his family in China. The day before

611
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: the murder, he took out a very large sum of

612
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: money from the bank. I think he had advertised that

613
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: he was going to sell the business, so people in

614
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: Chinatown around him, all the neighbors knew he was going

615
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: to sell this business. He was going to be taking off.

616
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: So the day before he died, he takes a large

617
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: amount of money. Who would know besides a banker that

618
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: he was going to take that amount of money out.

619
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: The cousin would have suspected it was going to happen soon,

620
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: I would guess.

621
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 2: Right, yeah. And I think that's the million dollar question,

622
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 2: you know, is you know, first at the crime scene

623
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: or his residence, was he actually living at the laundrymat?

624
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: Do we know? M hm?

625
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: He had a little back bedroom that had just a

626
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: couch in it in a bathroom and that.

627
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: Was it, you know. So of course, if you know

628
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 2: through the crime scene search they're not finding that cash,

629
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 2: then there's a presumption that the offender did find that cash.

630
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 2: There was only the thirty four dollars in the in

631
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 2: the money drawer. It's what you said said even though

632
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: that's a lot of money back then, but sounds like

633
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 2: Deing had much more money than that elsewhere within the laundromat.

634
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: And so now it's you know, you have to follow

635
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 2: that money trail, like who is Ding talking to about leaving?

636
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 2: Who are his friends? You know, he's got the bookkeeper,

637
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 2: you know would know so, and employees at the bank

638
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 2: would know. So, you know, there's certain groups of individuals

639
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 2: that now you have to go talk to and find

640
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: out what their knowledge was.

641
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: And I think one of the issues knowing you know

642
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: about the eighteen hundreds is if he's advertising that he's

643
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: selling this laundromat and people know what the do date

644
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: is that he's going to have to leave soon, which

645
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: I assume most people in the neighborhood would know. They

646
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: would know that there's not going to be a wire

647
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: service where he will get money from Wells Fargo in

648
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 1: Boston to they would know that he would have money

649
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: on him. Everybody probably would know. They'd be able to

650
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: put it together. But I do think you're right I mean,

651
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: Sam seems to me to be a pretty good suspect

652
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: because it would work the cousin, because it would work

653
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: both ways. Right, he could either go white, could be right,

654
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: and Sam is sleeping on the couch for some reason

655
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: at the back and this happens, or you know, Sam

656
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: could show up at five in the morning when nobody

657
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: else is out but Ding is opening up.

658
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and you know, if it's somebody like Sam,

659
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: you know, and this was a financially motivated crime, then

660
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 2: I would say cutting the queue off and stabbing Ding

661
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: in the eyes is a form of staging ye trying

662
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 2: to make it look like something that it's not, you know,

663
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: And so that's that is a distinct possibility. But it's

664
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: also what else is Ding involved with? You know, there's

665
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 2: that theory, and then what else is what other secrets

666
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 2: does Ding have that potentially could be the reason he

667
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 2: got killed.

668
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 1: So you have, you know, the police in New York

669
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: really running into a brick wall for several reasons because

670
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: they are predominantly white, and the community that they're trying

671
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: to get information from is you know, prominently an immigrant community.

672
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: So they are running into two different kinds of witnesses.

673
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: Neither of which are helpful. One is, you know, the

674
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: people who literally don't speak English and they can't get

675
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: that information out of them, and they don't have a translator.

676
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 1: They would later have a translator on hand, but they

677
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: don't right now. And then the other half are the

678
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 1: people who don't trust the police because there were kind

679
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: of constant anti Chinese riots and violence. There were police

680
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: raids and the police, you know, obviously were the enemy.

681
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: And I'm sure there's crossover between those two groups. So

682
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: they're not getting much information about you know, this crime

683
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: from anybody. They do end up going to neighbors, many

684
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: of whom are either black or they're white, and they

685
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: will give some information, but it's limited. And then there

686
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: are some folks in the Chinese community who step forward

687
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: because people really did like Ding. So the first person

688
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: that Captain White gets a little bit of hope from

689
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: is from a guy named Jude Costello. He is a

690
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: barber who sublets his salon from Ding, so they're connected,

691
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: and the salon is separated from the laundry mat by

692
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: a very thin pine partition, which of course means he

693
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: can hear everything. And what Jude says is that on

694
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,479
Speaker 1: the night of the murder. At about eleven o'clock that night,

695
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 1: he saw a strange and small statued Chinese man pacing

696
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: in front of the laundry mat building. He said he

697
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: thought that the man was nineteen years old. He was

698
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 1: five foot four inches tall. He was wearing a tall

699
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 1: black hat with a broad rim, a faded blue tunic jacket,

700
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 1: and black trousers. And he said that the man managed

701
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: to get inside the laundry mat at midnight by ding.

702
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: And then Jude said he could hear Ding and this

703
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: man speaking of Mandarin, I mean, in which he does

704
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: not know. Costella doesn't know, Jude doesn't know. But he

705
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: said the conversation sounded fine, the tones were fine. And

706
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: he said that he assumed that this is a guy

707
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: who had just come from California to Boston, and maybe

708
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 1: you know, Ding, knowing his nature, was trying to set

709
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: him up to, you know, have a good life here,

710
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: he said, at about one o'clock in the morning, so

711
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: two hours after he first saw this strange man pacing outside,

712
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: he heard coins rattle. And then after that Jude becomes

713
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: not a good witness. He falls asleep. So the caveat

714
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: here is that Jude is black, and the way that

715
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: he pegs the age of this frenetic man, pacing will

716
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,280
Speaker 1: come into play and there will be the eighteen hundred's

717
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: sort of like I don't know, they didn't use the term,

718
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: but the cross racial misidentification stuff, and that becomes important.

719
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 2: So obviously you have an unknown Chinese male, Okay, you

720
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 2: got to identify him. Unfortunately, the ear witness isn't hearing

721
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 2: an argument, isn't hearing the homicide. So we can't say

722
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 2: for sure that this man is the actual killer. It's

723
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: just that he's he's there under unusual circumstances.

724
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: M absolutely. So we've got more kind of witnesses trying

725
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 1: to fill in the timeline. Here. There's another guy. This

726
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: is a teenager, sixteen year old messenger boy named Bartholomew Connolly,

727
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: and he worked for Western Union Telegraph. So he backs

728
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,399
Speaker 1: up basically Jude's story. He says that he had gone

729
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: to Ding's laundry mat about eleven o'clock that night, and

730
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: that when he got there, Ding was happy and laughing

731
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 1: and smoking with this other Chinese man who Bartholomew had

732
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: never seen before. He said the stranger was wearing the

733
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: dark brimmed hat had a thin, sharp face, and he

734
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: was lying on Ding's ironing board, and he said that

735
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: he had seen the man once before in the shop

736
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: about a month earlier. But that night, between eleven and

737
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: twelve thirty in the morning, this stranger came and went

738
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: several times, and each time he passed Bartholomew, this kid,

739
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: he put his hand on his right hip pocket like

740
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: he was holding something which he was afraid might break,

741
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: like kind of racing it, I guess. So now you've

742
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: got two different witnesses who are confirming seeing this strange man,

743
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: which I don't know if anybody's going to be able

744
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: to pick out in this large community someone from the other,

745
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: especially because I am guessing Bartholomew Connolly is not Chinese.

746
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: I could be wrong, though.

747
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, obviously it's a very difficult situation to try

748
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 2: to track down who this man was based off of

749
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 2: those witnesses. This type of community that does not trust

750
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: law enforcement, you know, of course we have that today

751
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 2: and generally this is where law enforcement you try to

752
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,959
Speaker 2: develop in fours, you know, to be able to give

753
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 2: you some inside information as to what's going on. And

754
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 2: so I'm wondering if if Boston PD has developed, you know,

755
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 2: some informants within the Chinese community to see as somebody

756
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 2: talking about what Ding has been involved with.

757
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: We do end up getting a little bit more information,

758
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,720
Speaker 1: which is good. Okay, more witnesses. So there are several

759
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: other witnesses who come forward with a matching description of

760
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 1: this stranger, angular face and all of that, whom they

761
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: had seen walking up and down Lennox Street. So one

762
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: is a guy named mister Walsh. He doesn't like the heat.

763
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: It was really hot that day, he couldn't go to sleep,

764
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: and he had seen a man at Ding's laundry mat

765
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: as late as two thirty. So now you've got two

766
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,879
Speaker 1: people who say they've seen someone between eleven or heard

767
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 1: someone between eleven PM and twelve thirty ish. And now

768
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: we've got this other person saying he was there as

769
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: late as two thirty and so he has a small

770
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 1: o at his window and then that's when he notices

771
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: the conversation with Ding while Ding is ironing. So this

772
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 1: is two thirty in the morning. Gosh, Ding works long hours.

773
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: So now there is a Chinese milkman. So parts of

774
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: the community are helpful. So there's a Chinese milkman on

775
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: Sunday morning. He says, at five point thirty he saw

776
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: a man generally matching what Jude and Bartholomew had described

777
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 1: as the person in the door. He slams the door,

778
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: the laundroymat, and he darts down the street. He says

779
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: that this stranger kept looking over his shoulder as he

780
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: ran toward downtown. Now, this is why I was bringing

781
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: up the other story, because what this milkman says is

782
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: that this guy had a long scar on his cheek.

783
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: And what I thought was was this came up in

784
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: the other case too. How can you see that kind

785
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: of detail when you're reporting that you see him close

786
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: the door, turn and run and look over his shoulder.

787
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: Well, but the milkman he may have just gotten, you know,

788
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: a glance at the side of this man's face, and

789
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 2: that scar stood out. It's hard to say. I mean,

790
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 2: witnesses sometimes will give descriptions of you know, they some

791
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 2: suspect and it doesn't match up when you finally you know,

792
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 2: get the suspect. That is just the nature of how

793
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 2: humans perceive the world, especially under let's say a dramatic event.

794
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 2: You know that that trauma, that unexpected thing, and people

795
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 2: will just visualize something that's not real. But with this milkman,

796
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 2: you know that scar I'd go, well, you know, that's

797
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 2: that sounds interesting, you know. And were they able to

798
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: make a composite with these witnesses, you know that they

799
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 2: could now go around and start showing other people in

800
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 2: the community.

801
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,720
Speaker 1: No, because they very quickly target somebody and make an arrest.

802
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: So apparently Boston p D does not think there's a

803
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: need for a compausite. And you know, you were talking

804
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,879
Speaker 1: about the human nature, and it's sort of like you're

805
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: the prism that you're looking through. And you know, I

806
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: had always heard it's that your brain is filling in

807
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 1: the blanks to make that what you just saw make sense.

808
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: What makes sense? You know. Sure, So it'll be interesting

809
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: to see if the Chinese molk man, if we come

810
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 1: up with this person. So they arrest a guy the

811
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: next day whose name is Lee Sing. He's forty and

812
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 1: he's Chinese, and he matches the description of this stranger.

813
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 1: And the reason I said forty the way I said

814
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: it is we remember that the person who did definitively

815
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: see him, who is Jude next door, said nineteen, which

816
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: is a huge difference, you know.

817
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, but at the same time, I mean, you're trying

818
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 2: to judge somebody's age based off physical appearance, and it

819
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 2: wouldn't surprise me that you're seeing this type of age difference.

820
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 2: You know, it's more okay, does this Lease sing first?

821
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 2: Is he matching the general description? Plus you know, does

822
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 2: he have any connection to to ding in the laundromat?

823
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you what the description is. So

824
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: he's working at this laundromat on Harrison Avenue and he's

825
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: I think he's just a you or worker there. He

826
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: doesn't own it or anything. He's packing a trunk and

827
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 1: he's preparing to leave Boston. When the police show up,

828
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: He's wearing a faded blue jumper speckled with red stains,

829
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 1: a slouchy hat, and brand new shoes. He has a

830
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: jackknife in his pocket. They bring him into the station

831
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: and according to witnesses people who are around, he was

832
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 1: not at his laundrymat after six pm the night of

833
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: the murder, and he didn't come back until Sunday in

834
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 1: the early afternoon. I have to presume that Leasing also

835
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: sleeps at this laundry mat, which I don't think would

836
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: have been unusual. That probably would have been part of

837
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: a deal, an employment deal at that time, but he

838
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: doesn't come back until early Sunday afternoon when the police

839
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 1: are searching around for somebody. He said that he had

840
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: been at the owner of the laundromat's home on Essex

841
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 1: Street that night and he had gone to bed about

842
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 1: eleven o'clock that night. But when the detectives go question

843
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 1: sam Wa, who owns this house, he said that Lee,

844
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: you know, came and left at seven pm. Now we're

845
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: kind of getting in consistencies, right, And they look at

846
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: the blood because that's the first thing I thought of,

847
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: and it's not human blood. It is calcamine, which is

848
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: a common dye that they used in Chinese laundromats at

849
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: the time. Even though Jude identifies Lee as the man

850
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: he saw at Dings and I of the murderer, there

851
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: are other witnesses who say, I don't think so, and

852
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: I have to assume that this is the Chinese milkman. Also,

853
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: I don't believe that Lee has this scar down the face.

854
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: So they have nothing else. They have to release him

855
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:51,240
Speaker 1: at that point.

856
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 2: Well, they can't place him at the laundromat. They can't

857
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: place them committing the homicide, you know, So right now, yeah,

858
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 2: he's maybe a suspect, but they have to you know,

859
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 2: build a case. They have to find the evidence. You know,

860
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 2: where's the double edged murder weapon, where's the money that

861
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 2: is missing? Is there any bloody clothing? You know. This

862
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 2: is where you have to search Leasing's place, wherever he

863
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 2: had access, and it sounds like they came up empty.

864
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,439
Speaker 2: Right now, so's he's just a suspect and he may

865
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 2: be the killer, he may not be the killer.

866
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: And I thought that this weak alibi of his, because

867
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: he clearly lied about the alibi, was going to do

868
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: him in. But with the mistrust between the Chinese community

869
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: and the police in Boston, there were a myriad, I'm

870
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: sure reasons why he would have lied. I mean, who

871
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: he might have done illgal activity. He didn't want to

872
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: cop to that, and he thought he'd just get out

873
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: of it, and he did. So, yeah, you're right, So

874
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: they let him go. So this crime has spread all

875
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 1: over New England now and the police are getting what

876
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: I would consider to be incredibly unhelpful to most of

877
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: it rooted in racism, you know, and so that doesn't help. So,

878
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: you know, we've always talked about this phenomenon where the

879
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 1: police are trying to search a needle in a haystack

880
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: for a good tip, and the haystack is so large

881
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: because there's so many bad tips. So the police now

882
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 1: are listening to rumors. Which is a good thing or

883
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 1: a bad thing, I'm not quite sure yet. They said

884
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 1: that they had heard from Chinatown residents that Ding was

885
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: While he was a good kind man, he was also

886
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: a very shrewd man. And even though Jude had never

887
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: he said, seen in the laundrymat, like even a deck

888
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: of cards to indicate that Ding was into gambling, people

889
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: suspected that Ding was into gambling because the amount of

890
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 1: money that he had around and that I think people

891
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: like Sam his cousin, the withdrawal from the bank. It

892
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like a laundry mat would generate that kind

893
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 1: of money. So now the police are going, great, now

894
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: do we have to deal with the Chinese underworld here?

895
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 1: Because people are suspecting that, you know, he was he

896
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 1: was getting money from other illegal sources.

897
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 2: That tracks with me in terms of the messaging that

898
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 2: the offender did, okay, you know, with the stabs of

899
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 2: the eyes and cutting the queue off. So this is

900
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:21,439
Speaker 2: where you know, victimology is huge and now okay, so

901
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,959
Speaker 2: who who did Ding piss off?

902
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,879
Speaker 1: Well, here are your options. There are four companies they

903
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: call it like the mafia families that operate all of

904
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 1: these vice businesses in Chinatown. It's Moi, Ching, Li and

905
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 1: Singh And these are gangs that organize investments capital investments

906
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 1: for vice businesses, so you know they will I mean

907
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 1: people can invest in sex work or gambling or you

908
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 1: know whatever it is. And these four businesses extort business

909
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: owners for protection, which could be of course Ding and

910
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: enforced justice in Chinatown. So there is a rumor that

911
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: Ding was part of mister Lee's company. So there are

912
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,879
Speaker 1: you know, more theories, and now people are saying it's

913
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 1: a conspiracy. Policemen say that about it. One point thirty,

914
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 1: the night of the murder, two Chinese men in what

915
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 1: they called americanized clothing, we're seen leaning over a fence

916
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: on Linux Street, spying on Ding's shop, and the you know,

917
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,879
Speaker 1: Captain White now is saying, do we think that these

918
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 1: were lookouts for some you know assassin that was supposed

919
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: to come on behalf of either one of the other

920
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 1: companies or Ding's own company to kill him, and now

921
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: it's just speculation at this point.

922
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, from my perspective, it's it's informed

923
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 2: because you know, part of work in a case is

924
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:56,240
Speaker 2: you have to understand based on what the offender has done.

925
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 2: The offender is kind of doing certain behaviors that if

926
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 2: you interpret those behaviors right, to give you direction on

927
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 2: where the investigation should at least march down to see

928
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 2: if there's any leads that develop. And you know, early

929
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 2: on I thought, hey, this sounds like the offender is

930
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 2: sending a message. The way Ding is killed and what

931
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 2: was done to Ding is a message to other people.

932
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:26,359
Speaker 2: So I personally think that this is possibly the right

933
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 2: path for the investigators to go down.

934
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: Well, let's see what ends up happening. They have now

935
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: identified a member of one of these companies that they

936
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 1: think could be responsible. So this is very quick this investigation.

937
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 1: So Ding was they think murdered in the early morning

938
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 1: hours of July nineteenth, this is July twentieth, and they

939
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 1: arrest a guy named a Moi Chong on suspicion of murder.

940
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: A Moi is the head of one of these companies,

941
00:52:55,719 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: the Moi Company, and per the Chinese Command's observation. This

942
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 1: guy has a long scar along his jaw and has

943
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: a really bad reputation for violence. So, you know, allegedly

944
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 1: he killed three men in California, and there was a

945
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 1: rival company, which is the Ching Company. And in the

946
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: Ching company, it was one of the now we're down

947
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 1: to three companies. That Chin company was run by a

948
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 1: guy named Ching Fu, and ah Moy Chong literally ran

949
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,799
Speaker 1: that guy out with a gun. The guy left, you know,

950
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 1: that whole company shut down because ah Moy Chung had

951
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: a gun on him and said, you better get out

952
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 1: of the city. So very very violent. And the idea

953
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: was that the rumor was that Ding worked for another

954
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: rival company, the Lee Company. So where the connection is

955
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:58,280
Speaker 1: how Ding may have you know, screwed over this guy.

956
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: We don't know. The arrest comes when Moy is in

957
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: bed with his wife and he's smoking a pipe. They

958
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 1: arrest him and on the way to the police station,

959
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 1: he drops a silk handkerchief. It is stained with blood.

960
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: You know. His wife alibism and she says, you guys

961
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,359
Speaker 1: are barking up the wrong tree. He was in bed

962
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 1: with me during Saturday night and there are no witnesses

963
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: that can identify Moy as the killer, so he is released.

964
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: There is not enough information or either he is not

965
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: the killer or witnesses know exactly who he is, and

966
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 1: nobody wants to point to MOI because he's probably the

967
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 1: most powerful out of all of these companies.

968
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 2: Sure, you know, you know, at least MOI as a

969
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 2: suspect seems to fit. You know, somebody within that circle

970
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 2: is possibly the killer. You know, MOI might be the killer,

971
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 2: but they have to make a case. You know, he's

972
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 2: a suspect. That's again, it's just like, oh, the previous guy,

973
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 2: who is it? That was sing? You know. So this

974
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 2: is where if they made an arrest, they're making an

975
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:14,280
Speaker 2: arrest just off of reputation and maybe the milkman saying

976
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 2: the guy had a scar. Okay, yep, definitely not enough

977
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 2: to hold the guy in custody and charge him with murder. So,

978
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 2: you know, I'm kind of curious, Well, how deep did

979
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 2: the investigators search and interview along this line of investigation.

980
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know what they do with the handkerchief,

981
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 1: but they do conferment's blood. I don't know what his

982
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: explanation is. I would guess because of the relationship and

983
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 1: how high up. He is the head of this company.

984
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 1: That there wasn't much of an investigation. That would be

985
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:51,439
Speaker 1: my guess, because that's the end of the story. Oh really,

986
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: it isn't isn't unsolved. I'm gonna set you loose on

987
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 1: this case. It's an unsolved case. They never find who

988
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 1: kills him. He is buried locally, and that is that.

989
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: And you have witnesses who don't want to talk. Probably

990
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 1: someone knows exactly who this is, who did it, but

991
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: you know, we just we don't know. We would be

992
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 1: able to find out, of course, as with every case,

993
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: we would be able to find out a lot more now,

994
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: but you're right, everything was rumors. I mean, welcome to

995
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds. That's how a lot of people were

996
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 1: executed was from rumors. So in a time period when

997
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 1: you know a man's character is based on his handshake

998
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,879
Speaker 1: and looking you in the eye, this is what ends

999
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 1: up happening, especially in a crowded city with a lot

1000
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 1: of racism, and the police, you know, are not getting

1001
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 1: don't have a good relationship with the community, so they're

1002
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 1: not getting information either. You have this man, we don't

1003
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 1: know if he was involved with gambling. We don't know

1004
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: about Ding, but we know that he was murdered. In

1005
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: his cases unsolved.

1006
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 2: Again, the offender's behaviors in terms of committing the crime

1007
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 2: does point investigation into a direction into a certain type

1008
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 2: of suspect pool. And based on the messaging that the

1009
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 2: offender did with Ding's eyes and cutting his queue off,

1010
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 2: I like the idea that within these Chinese companies, this

1011
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 2: organized crime aspect, the killer is probably within that environment

1012
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 2: and came out of that environment. You know, be interesting

1013
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 2: talking to other shop owners going Okay, why would somebody

1014
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 2: be doing this to Ding to send you a message?

1015
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 2: Who is coming around collecting money from you on a

1016
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 2: weekly basis? You know that seems pretty apparent to me.

1017
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:38,959
Speaker 2: What's going on here?

1018
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, if we believe the milkman, and

1019
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 1: you're right, he could have just gotten the right glimpse

1020
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 1: when he was turning around and shutting the door and running.

1021
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: Even if this is the killer, we assume this is

1022
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 1: the killer, and you know that scar. While I'm sure

1023
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: there are many men in Chinatown who have scars. The

1024
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 1: culmination of this guy's reputation, plus the suspicion that Ding

1025
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: had a little bit too much money for being a

1026
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 1: laundrymat owner. I mean the amount of money people describe

1027
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,919
Speaker 1: him having. I don't know why the previous laundry owner

1028
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 1: would have shut down business if you're really that profitable,

1029
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 1: and it sounds like he was ready to go. So

1030
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 1: it's definitely a big mystery. I don't know what happened

1031
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 1: to that massive chunk of money that he had to

1032
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 1: have withdrawn. Maybe it's a seventeen thousand that he was

1033
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: talking about, seventeen thousand American dollars, But what a mystery.

1034
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:29,720
Speaker 1: It's a good mystery.

1035
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he may have been trying to get out

1036
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 2: of Dodge to avoid this from happening to him, because

1037
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 2: he knew he upset somebody out of this criminal element.

1038
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I also wonder if maybe he was participating,

1039
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 1: not in gambling, but maybe like literally money laundering, you know,

1040
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 1: because they could just run stuff through businesses, and who knows.

1041
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 1: I don't know what his participation is, but sure he

1042
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: had been there eight years. It's a long time to

1043
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 1: kind of establish yourself within that community. So interesting mystery

1044
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: from late eighteen hundreds. I missed that time period when

1045
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: we're not I don't think we're not there nearly enough,

1046
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 1: But I know how much you like photos. But this

1047
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 1: was a you know, another kind of unsolved mystery in

1048
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 1: a city like New York and Boston where people can

1049
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: be inanimity is just like currency there, it's you can

1050
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 1: do anything you want in a big city in some

1051
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 1: cases like that.

1052
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 2: Nope, for sure, all right, Well interesting case.

1053
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: Kate, Yeah, we go always.

1054
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 2: I want the bad guy caught, but you know it's

1055
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 2: a good case.

1056
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you like unsolved cases too, But you're right.

1057
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 1: I mean I don't have a case. I don't have

1058
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 1: a case file and we don't have Ding's relatives to

1059
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 1: run DNA with. So sure, sure, Okay, next week, maybe

1060
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: a solved case, maybe.

1061
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 2: Not, we'll see, all right, thanks again, Thanks.

1062
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1063
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactly right

1064
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 2: Media dot com, slash Buried Bones sources.

1065
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.

1066
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1067
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1068
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1069
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1070
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff. Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1071
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1072
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Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod.

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Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

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Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

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Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

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Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

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Speaker 1: cold Cases is also available now.

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Speaker 2: Listen to Barry Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts