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Speaker 1: Welcome to the crime round up, y'all. There's a judge

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Speaker 1: and Idaho that's got some horse sense, I'm telling you,

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Speaker 1: and I cannot wait Nancy to talk to you, step

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Speaker 1: my step of what just occurred?

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Speaker 2: How are you hunting?

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Speaker 3: I'm great. I'm happy to be alive. It's been a

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Speaker 3: very very long week in courts across our country and investigations.

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Speaker 3: A lot happening, Cheryl. A lot between Sean Combs aka

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Speaker 3: A Diddy aka Puffy aka Puff blah blah blah blah

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Speaker 3: between him and bestI Kanye. I mean, seriously, I try

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Speaker 3: not to use cliches because they're so irritating. But with

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Speaker 3: a best friend like that, and who needs an enemy,

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Speaker 3: he just walks in and blows up the defense with

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Speaker 3: all of his defending Puff. I mean, nobody wants to

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Speaker 3: be associated with Kanye right now, so I don't know

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Speaker 3: that I would want him on the front seat behind

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Speaker 3: you know, the defense council at trial that said Idaho.

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Speaker 3: Just I mean, there's so many cases, Cheryl, I can't keep.

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Speaker 4: Up with them.

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Speaker 3: And I look, I don't have to have a big

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Speaker 3: staff looking for me, although they cleanly look Twitter, Facebook, Asta,

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Speaker 3: you name it. I'm looking and I find cases all

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Speaker 3: the time. Like Cheryl, I you Wan told about coburg.

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Speaker 3: I'm getting coburger. Hayden Venice, Cheryl, his family wait for it.

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Speaker 3: Just realize that as he's been missing for five years.

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Speaker 2: Oh God, Now.

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Speaker 3: I don't drag him into this. Just realize this, Hayden

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Speaker 3: has been missing for five years. Okay, do you know

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Speaker 3: how that threw me completely Lee over the edge when

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Speaker 3: I heard that? Grigged there head been. Let's just say

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Speaker 3: a family break up, all right. The father, the son, well,

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Speaker 3: he's the father of Hayden. He has a drug problem.

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Speaker 3: To put it mildly, he has a big blow up

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Speaker 3: with his family and he stops out and that they

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Speaker 3: assume that's why he won't bring Hayden for Christmas and

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Speaker 3: Thanksgiving and all that. You ever been part of a

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Speaker 3: family blow up, They're horrible. And people that you grew

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Speaker 3: up with, you think are your closest friends, or so

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Speaker 3: I've heard, have nothing to do with their family. The

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Speaker 3: brothers and sister split. So long story short, they talked

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Speaker 3: it off to that five years go by and hello,

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Speaker 3: nobody has seen Hayden Mannas. So that's when they quote

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Speaker 3: realize he's missing, and I couldn't believe it. I divided

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Speaker 3: a whole kutting him and compared it to other high

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Speaker 3: profile cases that you and I have investigated, well one

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Speaker 3: for instance. I mean, can anybody forget tot Mom, that

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Speaker 3: poc who went at least thirty one days before she well,

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Speaker 3: her mother did it. She didn't even report killing missing,

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Speaker 3: That's right. And you've got Harmony Montgomery. I mean, there's

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Speaker 3: so many. Just keep it on your radar that Brian

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Speaker 3: Coburger is not the only alleged evildoer. We got a

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Speaker 3: lot of crime, Cheryl. Can I just tell you about

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Speaker 3: one more? When we were discussing Hayden, we had on

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Speaker 3: another little girl's would be mom, okay, hew londlet me

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Speaker 3: heat my tea. Her name was Oakley Carlson. And I

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Speaker 3: can't even think about Oakley without breaking into tears.

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Speaker 2: I remember that little fae.

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Speaker 3: This little Oakley had a horrible, horrible mother, Uh drug

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Speaker 3: ada to blah blah blah. And so she went to

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Speaker 3: a foster home and they told the foster mom that

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Speaker 3: she was going.

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Speaker 4: To get to adopt.

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Speaker 3: They have Oakley for a couple of years. They make

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Speaker 3: her a nursery they're so happy they're going to have

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Speaker 3: their own forever baby. Then the mom gets preading again

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Speaker 3: and they agree to take the sibling. All this is happening,

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Speaker 3: and all of a sudden they go, oh, no, we're

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Speaker 3: going to reunify. I hate that word reunification. Over the

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Speaker 3: foster mom's objections, they give her back and guess what,

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Speaker 3: she's never been seeing in lime again. And that mom,

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Speaker 3: it's just heartbreaking. She showed us the nursery, the room,

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Speaker 3: all the little clothes, all the fun things that they

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Speaker 3: did together, trips and amusement parks and just daily life,

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Speaker 3: you know, is like a party when you have a

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Speaker 3: child that you love. Now that I told you about

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Speaker 3: Oakley and.

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Speaker 4: Hayden, I'm ready to move forward.

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Speaker 1: It is such a victory for the prosecution, heck, for

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Speaker 1: the constitution, and for every single law enforcement agency that

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Speaker 1: you know responded to this case, which there were multiple.

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Speaker 2: I mean even Indiana responded, you know.

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Speaker 1: Not just Idaho, not just the college, not just local

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Speaker 1: law enforcement, but so many people. But the judge, honey,

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Speaker 1: he's struck down every single thing they tried. And I

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Speaker 1: just want you to go step by step with me

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Speaker 1: so people understand the importance. The first thing he said

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Speaker 1: was the cell phone and email records they're in. They

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Speaker 1: can come in. Now I know you and I know

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Speaker 1: what you would do with those. That's going to be huge.

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Speaker 3: Well, I tell you, Cheryl, under the law as it exists,

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Speaker 3: this is what the judge had to rule. This is

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Speaker 3: the law. The judge is Stephen Hefler denied multiple defense motions.

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Speaker 3: They Coburger's defense team were trying to suppress critical DNA

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Speaker 3: evidence and other evidence such as you pointed out cell phone,

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Speaker 3: email records, surveillance footage, Amazon purchases, and DNA. I believe

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Speaker 3: I got them all. Let's think that through. They wanted

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Speaker 3: to suppress cell phone data, email records, surveillance footage, Amazon purchases.

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Speaker 4: And DNA.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I think I got them all because I'm talking

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Speaker 3: off the top.

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Speaker 2: Of my head here and the trash bend.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that would be the DNA evidence from the trash,

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Speaker 3: which is I'll start with that one. The theory is

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Speaker 3: called abandonment, and that can mean in regular vernacular street talk,

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Speaker 3: that can mean anything. You abandon your car, you abandon

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Speaker 3: your child, do you abandon a relationship? Abandonment under search

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Speaker 3: and seizure fourth A mini law means you abandon an

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Speaker 3: item that police then rightfully seized without a warrant. Now,

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Speaker 3: in this case, I believe they did have a warrant

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Speaker 3: to seize trash that had been abandoned by Coburger's family.

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Speaker 3: What does that mean when you throw something out where

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Speaker 3: any civilian can have it, Like you put a chest

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Speaker 3: of drawers out on the street for the trash people, okay,

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Speaker 3: and you have your crack cocaine in it, See forgot

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Speaker 3: and police come on. They can't grab that chest of

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Speaker 3: George just as well as the trash people and find

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Speaker 3: your crack, okay. So that is abandonment. Whatever a civilian

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Speaker 3: can do, police can do. When Coburger's family abandoned their trash,

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Speaker 3: put the trash out, and police got DNA off an

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Speaker 3: item from the trash from Coburger's father. If they compared

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Speaker 3: it to the DNA found on the knife sheath under

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Speaker 3: a dead victim back at the King Road address, trash

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Speaker 3: can evidence to knife sheath, it proved to the million

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Speaker 3: to one, millions and millions to want odds that the

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Speaker 3: only donor to the DNA on the knife sheath had

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Speaker 3: to be the male chiled from the trash. There's only

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Speaker 3: one male child from mister Coburger and that is Brian Coburger. Okay,

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Speaker 3: they wanted that suppressed, but under the long standing abandonment

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Speaker 3: theory under the law, the judge had to allow it.

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Speaker 3: Of course, we see judges all the time make some

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Speaker 3: zany decision that departs from the law, but there's an

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Speaker 3: immediate emergency appeal. Immediate the state would appeal it immediately

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Speaker 3: to the Idaho Supreme Court and they would rule pursue

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Speaker 3: it to the US Supreme Court, which is the abandonment theory.

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Speaker 3: So that's why the judge ruled that way, you know,

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Speaker 3: regardless of what everybody's screaming on X and Facebook and

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Speaker 3: instead about Brian Kiberger's rights BS. That's the law. Deal

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Speaker 3: with it.

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Speaker 1: And there's a part two to that where the judge

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Speaker 1: said the knighte sheaf, he had no expectation of privacy

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Speaker 1: because he left his DNA in public.

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Speaker 3: Your theory is correct, your reasoning is correct. He did

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Speaker 3: not leave the knife sheaf in public. He left it

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Speaker 3: at a crime scene. There is no expectation of privacy

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Speaker 3: in anything left at a crime scene, much less a

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Speaker 3: quadruple murder scene. Expectations of privacy. What is that under

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Speaker 3: the law. Sounds confusing. It's not in our constitution. We

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Speaker 3: had the Fourth Amendment, which protects you from unreasonable searches

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Speaker 3: and seizures. Where did that come from? It came from

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Speaker 3: the British kicking in people's doors during and before the

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Speaker 3: Revolutionary War, demanding that they get to stay in there,

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Speaker 3: just live in somebody's house and eat all their food. No,

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Speaker 3: the Fourth Amendment says, and that's where it originated, you

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Speaker 3: are protected from unreasonable searches and seizures from the government.

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Speaker 3: You're not protected from private citizens. That's to be figured

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Speaker 3: out in civil court. But from the government, you are protected.

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Speaker 3: That has been extended over centuries in case law. Okay,

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Speaker 3: case law.

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Speaker 4: Here's an example.

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Speaker 3: A cop comes up to me and says, hey, roeblant,

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Speaker 3: let me search your trunk. I'm like, fine, do it,

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Speaker 3: and then he goes, oh, by the way, I'm now

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Speaker 3: going to search your handbag and your bra. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa,

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Speaker 3: Wait a minute, I have a reasonable expectation of privacy

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Speaker 3: in my purse and my bra. Now that's an outlantish example,

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Speaker 3: but that's the point for most searches, you must have

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Speaker 3: a search warrant. I won't go deaf coon Ford and

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Speaker 3: give you all the times you don't need a warrant,

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Speaker 3: such as emergency or exigence circumstances where the car is

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Speaker 3: speeding away with the dead body in the trunk, you

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Speaker 3: don't need a warrant for that. But there are other

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Speaker 3: reasons you don't need to warrant in other situations. But

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Speaker 3: here the legal theory is there is no expectation of

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Speaker 3: privacy in what you or anyone leaves behind at a

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Speaker 3: crime scene. Then let's see what else did he do?

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Speaker 3: Defense argued LA law enforcement violated Coburger's rights. Let's see, oh,

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Speaker 3: before getting a warrant, before conducting genetic genealogy. Okay, and

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Speaker 3: before the trash pull. But again, trash is covered by

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Speaker 3: abandonment theory genetic genealogy. Let's talk about that he made

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Speaker 3: the right ruling under the law. When you see something

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Speaker 3: from a crime scene, whether it be the knife, sheath

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Speaker 3: or DNA or a fingerprint, or let's just say a

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Speaker 3: bullet round, let's talk about Delphi. Where it is it

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Speaker 3: Richard Allen cycled a bullet through his gun didn't fire,

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Speaker 3: but cycled it through to scare the girls and dropped

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Speaker 3: the darn thing on between the two bodies. Idiot, But

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Speaker 3: thank the Lord he did because that ballistics match went

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Speaker 3: directly to his gun. He left that behind. Therefore, no

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Speaker 3: expectation of privacy and therefore air go. You don't need

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Speaker 3: a warrant if there's no expectation of privacy. Am I

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Speaker 3: going too fast?

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Speaker 2: No, you're doing fabulous.

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Speaker 4: Okay, great, Okay.

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Speaker 3: Once you pull a fingerprint and you've done this a

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Speaker 3: million times, fingerprint DNA hair fiber from a crime scene,

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Speaker 3: well are you telling me you have to get another

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Speaker 3: warrant to haven't tested? No, but that's what they argued,

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Speaker 3: And of course that's crazy talk under the law. I'm

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Speaker 3: not making up the law. This is the law established

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Speaker 3: by the US Supreme Court. Okay, so there so far,

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Speaker 3: all of those rulings are in lot step with the

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Speaker 3: US Supreme Court. And I don't mean just one decision.

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Speaker 3: I mean decades and decades, in decades where this has

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Speaker 3: been hashed out and it's confirmed that Ellie did the

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Speaker 3: right thing and the judge ruled the right way. One

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Speaker 3: more thing about the DNA. The defense also argued that

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Speaker 3: the Constitution was violated when Coburger exposed his DNA. The

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Speaker 3: judge said, Coburger exposed his DNA to the public, leaving

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Speaker 3: it on the sheets. Those were his words, but also

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Speaker 3: it was at a crime scene. They had a whole

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Speaker 3: slew of alleged constitutional violations with the use of investigative

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Speaker 3: genetic genealogy. And Cheryl, I'd like to direct direct to

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Speaker 3: your attention to Bloodline Detectives. Okay, our show that airs

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Speaker 3: on linear TV, it's completely devoted to advanced genetic genealogy

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Speaker 3: DNA testing. That's what all the episodes are about. Cutting

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Speaker 3: edge DNA. I love the science that is used in forensics.

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Speaker 3: As to you, you're a forensic expert.

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Speaker 2: But.

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Speaker 3: This has really been I mean, I know that you're

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Speaker 3: the expert in collecting and observing the actual DNA, what

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Speaker 3: the trace is left behind. You can have all the

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Speaker 3: evidence you want, but if you don't have a lawyer

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Speaker 3: that understands the law and knows how to apply it

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Speaker 3: to the facts and explain it in an easy to

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Speaker 3: understand way, then you're screwed. You could be the best

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Speaker 3: CSI in the world, and if your DA can't explain

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Speaker 3: it or can't connect the dots to get into evidence.

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Speaker 4: You're screwed.

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Speaker 3: So I'm really happy with the way the state argued this.

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Speaker 3: They did a great job.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was fantastic.

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Speaker 1: And that's the reason I used the word public earlier,

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Speaker 1: because they did.

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Speaker 2: And that's basically what he did.

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Speaker 1: He didn't even know where the sheath was, so he

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Speaker 1: discarded it.

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Speaker 2: He left it.

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Speaker 1: He didn't control it, so he has no right to

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Speaker 1: it anymore.

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Speaker 3: Carol, how many times have you and I talked about

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Speaker 3: can't you imagine him? And of course he's innocent until

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Speaker 3: proven guilty. Can you imagine him driving home or getting

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Speaker 3: home and then he's like, where's the sheath?

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Speaker 2: Nancy?

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Speaker 1: When he went all those of that, he had the

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Speaker 1: knife by itself. It wasn't long before he realized where

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Speaker 1: it was. Okay, I'm ready to move forward Amazon purchases.

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Speaker 3: Oh I love that. I love that. So, okay, let

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Speaker 3: me compare it to this. I hate to even say

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Speaker 3: his naming connection with the crime, But do you remember

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Speaker 3: how Christ would speak in parables so all of us

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Speaker 3: idiots could understand what the hey you is talking about.

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Speaker 3: I like to give stories like here's a good one,

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Speaker 3: when I would explain circumstantial versus direct evidence to a jury, which,

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Speaker 3: of course the law is circumstantial evidence is as probative

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Speaker 3: as powerful as direct evidence under the law. Whether a

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Speaker 3: jury accepts it or not is up to a jury.

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Speaker 3: I would say to describe circumstantial aubdence, pretend you went

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Speaker 3: into your office building and it's a tall one, and

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Speaker 3: you were inside all day long in a conference room

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Speaker 3: that did not have a window. And when you went

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Speaker 3: in it was bright and sunny. But when you came

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Speaker 3: out there were pools of water on the street. Traffic

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Speaker 3: going by, kicking up pulled rain water, women rushing by,

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Speaker 3: hugging their raincoats, men with umbrellas.

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Speaker 4: The sky is dark.

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Speaker 3: You didn't see the storm, but you know it rained, right.

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Speaker 3: It's what you can deduce that is circumstantial evidence. That's

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Speaker 3: an example in this case how examples can be used

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Speaker 3: to explain what is happening, Like I'm getting to your

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Speaker 3: Amazon example when okay, here's another one. When you tell

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Speaker 3: your lawyer or your priest, your pastor something a secret,

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Speaker 3: right you expected to be a secret because it's protected

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Speaker 3: under the law. Priest parishoner privilege, attorney client privilege, husband

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Speaker 3: wife privilege, However, if you tell them a secret a

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Speaker 3: gottail party with ten people standing in your circle hearing

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Speaker 3: everything you say, you have no expectation of privacy, so

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Speaker 3: you're not protected by attorney client privilege. You screwed that.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 3: Here Amazon, the defense.

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Speaker 5: Tried to argue, I'm so happy it's trying to argue

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Speaker 5: that Coburger's Amazon order was privileged, that the state couldn't

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Speaker 5: dig up his Amazon order where he ordered the exact

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Speaker 5: knife and sheath.

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Speaker 3: Same thing like the cocktail party. When you tell Amazon,

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Speaker 3: even if it's an Amazon order on your iPad or

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Speaker 3: you call, you don't have a privilege anymore because it's

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Speaker 3: gone to so many people. It's gone to whoever took

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Speaker 3: the order. It's gone to whoever placed the order. It's

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Speaker 3: whoever stuffed the boxes, whoever mailed the box.

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Speaker 2: Forget it.

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Speaker 3: There is no Amazon customer privilege. There's no such thing.

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Speaker 3: What you order from Amazon is not a secret. There's

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Speaker 3: your credit card. It's like saying credit card receipts are secret. No,

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Speaker 3: those can be subpoenaed, just like Amazon receipts can be subpoenaed.

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Speaker 3: Bank records can be subpoena Your cell phone records can

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Speaker 3: be subpoena.

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Speaker 4: You do not.

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Speaker 3: Have a privileged communication with Amazon, even the delivery driver. Yes, okay,

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Speaker 3: here's another good example of that. Remember, dear, I say

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Speaker 3: her name, I'm afraid to say it might just conjured

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Speaker 3: her up in some way like an evil demon cult.

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Speaker 3: Mam Lauri Valo, that pos technical legal term. Ordered a

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Speaker 3: quote beach b eacch beach wedding dress, her husband soon

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Speaker 3: to be husband's beach groom's outfit, and her engagement ring

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Speaker 3: over Amazon on her dead husband's account. His mother found

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Speaker 3: all of those. The dead husband's mother found all of

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Speaker 3: that and brought it to the attention. And there's no

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Speaker 3: mother in law daughter in law privilege either. Okay, put

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Speaker 3: a side in that found that and it was brought

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Speaker 3: forth a trial significance. She ordered everything for her wedding,

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Speaker 3: her Hawaii beachside wedding, to the profit Chad day Bell

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Speaker 3: before his wife was dead, every Day Bell. That's one

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Speaker 3: of the reasons she got convicted as a in conspiracy

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Speaker 3: to kill Tammy because of that Amazon order. So Coburger,

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Speaker 3: don't jump up and tell me your Amazon records are privileged.

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Speaker 3: They're not asked. Ault Love Laurie Valo. Uh oh, I

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Speaker 3: think I just sort of peeker head around the.

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Speaker 2: Door, honey. I think that's about it. We cleared it.

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Speaker 2: I mean they feel it is that everything.

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Speaker 3: We didn't talk about cell phone records and we didn't

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Speaker 3: talk about something. Are you trying to get rid of me?

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Speaker 4: Because I'm just getting.

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Speaker 2: Going not at all, are you, kidd And I can

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Speaker 2: do this all left noon.

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Speaker 3: As an attendum add on to what I said about Amazon,

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Speaker 3: same thing applies to cell phone records. You can subpoena

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Speaker 3: AT and t VZW whoever and get the records. They're

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Speaker 3: very particular. However, they throw a little fit and you

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Speaker 3: have to go through all kind of hoops to get

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Speaker 3: cell phone records, but you do get them. And you

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Speaker 3: can also get serious exim records about triangulation and what

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Speaker 3: people are listening to, just all sorts of serious XM information.

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Speaker 3: But they will throw a stink at you. But you

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Speaker 3: can get them if you're tenacious and you've got a

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Speaker 3: proper warrant. But the same thing applies to Amazon cell

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Speaker 3: phone records. With a subpoena and a warrant, you can

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Speaker 3: get those records. Let's say is that what's left a

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Speaker 3: surveillance video. I don't know how they complained about surveillance

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Speaker 3: video because surveillance and video is coming from a third party.

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Speaker 3: What does that mean? That means if somebody breaks into

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Speaker 3: your house, if the Feds break in your house without

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Speaker 3: a warrant and take items, I can't complain about it.

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Speaker 3: I don't have standing. It has nothing to do with me.

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Speaker 3: You can complain about it. So the video surveillance taken

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Speaker 3: from other neighbors, ring cams at home video, home surveillance

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Speaker 3: video from you know, that gas station that he passed

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Speaker 3: allegedly in his Lantra at three am and four am

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Speaker 3: in the morning. He really doesn't have standing to complain

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Speaker 3: about that surveillance video because it doesn't belong to him.

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Speaker 3: Wait a minute, are your eyes glazing over with all

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Speaker 3: this legal discussion, Well.

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Speaker 2: I mean a little bit.

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Speaker 1: The more levels to something, the more you break something down,

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Speaker 1: people are going to be able to accept it and

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Speaker 1: then repeat it correctly. That's what you've done today. That

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Speaker 1: to me is so important.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's one thing to talk about the law

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Speaker 3: and all of these cases, but I just can't. I

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Speaker 3: can't stop thinking about Oakley, And you know, I wonder

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Speaker 3: how these four students' parents feel. You know, they sit there,

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Speaker 3: they're not in court during all of this because so

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Speaker 3: far away, but they hear us talking, they read the news,

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Speaker 3: they hear they know what's going on, and it's all

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Speaker 3: about that empty house.

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Speaker 4: Those four students, that.

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Speaker 3: Little Oakley, that little Hayden is they're never coming home.

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Speaker 6: And it just you know, I can spout off the

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Speaker 6: lawn and give you examples, and you can talk about

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Speaker 6: collecting evidence and just the harsh reality of what this

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Speaker 6: is really about, you know, those crime victims.

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Speaker 4: It's just, you know, sometimes it gets to.

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Speaker 1: Me, of course, and you mentioned you know, the parents,

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Speaker 1: they've been waiting, wanting to see justice for their child.

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Speaker 1: And you've got somebody arguing whether or not we can

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Speaker 1: know what he bought at Amazon, whether or not the

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Speaker 1: DNA is going to get in, whether or not they're

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Speaker 1: going to allow the sew you know, cell phone record, n.

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Speaker 3: Cheryl, I think I told this to you. I've never

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Speaker 3: told this before, but I just recently told it one time.

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Speaker 3: Of course, everyone by now knows about my fiance kid

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Speaker 3: getting murdered, but many years later his mom passed away

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Speaker 3: with cancer and was living in New York of course

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Speaker 3: at the time.

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Speaker 4: She passed away.

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Speaker 3: And I asked Keith's sister.

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Speaker 4: Was she in pain at the end? How was she?

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Speaker 4: What did she say?

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Speaker 3: And Judy told me that she said, Mom, what's thinking

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Speaker 3: about she? The mom answered, I'm just having memories, memories,

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Speaker 3: And she was having memories of Keith on.

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Speaker 4: Her dying bed. What do I mean?

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Speaker 3: It never goes away? Sheryl or her during bed she

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Speaker 3: was remembering Keith and what happened to Keith. It never

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Speaker 3: goes away. And these parents, they got a long road

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Speaker 3: ho right ahead of them.

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Speaker 2: I don't think there's anything left to say.

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Speaker 3: But hey, hey, hate David. Wait, you're trying to sneak

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Speaker 3: out without giving me a hot tea? Is this really happening? Well?

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Speaker 4: Can you give me the thermus at least? Cool? I mean,

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Speaker 4: I'm working here for Pete's sake, and they say the

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Speaker 4: romance is dead.

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Speaker 2: Oh that poor man Florida.

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Speaker 3: Hey, are we gonna go say about that sheriff that

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Speaker 3: shot the judge?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely?

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Speaker 3: Yes, Okay, all right.

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Speaker 2: You have a great weekend and I will talk to

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Speaker 2: you soon.

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Speaker 3: God willing, my dear by honey

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Speaker 4: M