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Speaker 1: M ah, that's the how we're starting this episode. I needed.

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Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans, host Behind the Bastards, and I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: trying out new introduction techniques because I just got off

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Speaker 1: of forty hours of plane flights. My guest today is

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Speaker 1: Mr Miles Gray. Miles full disclosure is the show? This

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Speaker 1: show is about? I call it, well, I call it

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Speaker 1: behind the Bastards. I don't know what everyone else calls it.

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Speaker 1: Do you also refer to it as behind the Bastards?

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Speaker 1: That's a great name. I think we might have to,

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Speaker 1: Sophie make a note of that one so we can

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Speaker 1: steal it from Miles. So if you don't just make

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Speaker 1: a note of it, get it tatted for posterity. Wait

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Speaker 1: where were you? Where are you traveling for forty hours? Uh?

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Speaker 1: Not just just a lot of layovers and you know

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Speaker 1: it was only Europe, but you know you wind up

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Speaker 1: getting stuck in airports here and there. I hear your brother. So, Miles,

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Speaker 1: how do you feel about school rules? Uh? Fuck school, dude?

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Speaker 1: You know I'm a cool yea fu school. You know

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Speaker 1: that answer, Miles that you gave is going to turn

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Speaker 1: out to be very appropriate for a couple of reasons,

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Speaker 1: most of them unfortunate. Um, because I don't even you're

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Speaker 1: talking about we are talking about a school today, and

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Speaker 1: it is a It is definitely a Fox school, Um,

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Speaker 1: but not in any kind of good way. In a

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Speaker 1: horrible crimes were child molestation. Dark. Yeah, this is a

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Speaker 1: bad way to introduce this episode. But there's no good

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Speaker 1: way to introduce this episode. This isn't Behind the Fun Times.

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Speaker 1: It's behind that. Behind the Fun Times is my other podcast.

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Speaker 1: Could you imagine it? Actually we're very dark where you're

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Speaker 1: hosting it and you're just doing like behind the scenes

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Speaker 1: of like some of like the happiest like you know,

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Speaker 1: pleasant moments in our history. Hey released one happy episode

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Speaker 1: we did release well, he died at the end, but

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Speaker 1: the work was good. Yeah. Yeah, I'd like I'd like

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Speaker 1: to have an episode where Werner Herzog and I just

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Speaker 1: talk about different puppets we think are cute. I think

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Speaker 1: if I like the baby Yoder, I'd like to hug

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Speaker 1: and caress him. I like that he really kept his

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Speaker 1: vibe up in the Mandalorian. He keeps he's never anything

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Speaker 1: but Werner Herzog, and that's that's all we ever want

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Speaker 1: from him. Now, speaking of a German. This whole episode

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Speaker 1: is set in Germany. It is now uh so yeah,

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Speaker 1: uh schools miles, none of us, none of us is

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Speaker 1: is I'm going to say, overwhelmingly happy with the school

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Speaker 1: system in the United States. I think that's the same,

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Speaker 1: especially our life. Educational system is meant as like a

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Speaker 1: barrier to entry for a certain class, so out when

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Speaker 1: you look at school like that, rather than like, hey,

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Speaker 1: education is available at everyone puts a bit of that

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Speaker 1: bad taste. I mean I literally just went to college

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Speaker 1: because it was drilled in my head. It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: you can't get a job unless you go to college.

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Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, that's why I spent twenty grand

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Speaker 1: in debt, failing to get a degree, and then dropping

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Speaker 1: out because they didn't want to spend another fifteen Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, there's problems involved with college or involved with

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Speaker 1: education in general in this country, and that there have

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Speaker 1: been for a long time. Um. I think most of

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Speaker 1: what I still remember from my high school days is

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Speaker 1: how to install Doom on a T I eight three

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Speaker 1: calculate you could get oh yeah, dude, yeah, or Wolfenstein.

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Speaker 1: It was one of the two. I forget exactly what Wolfenstein,

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Speaker 1: but the best I could do is get that one

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Speaker 1: thing that was called like drug wars or like the

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Speaker 1: Mafia drug war, drug wars, which the ship you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: drug wars be like press one to deal heroin. And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, here we go. But I don't know

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Speaker 1: like algebra. Um so, and I never learned how to

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Speaker 1: pay my taxes. Um shout out to my account. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's he's a cool guy. Now. My point here in

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Speaker 1: this rambling introduction is that in the year of our

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Speaker 1: Lord two thousand nineteen, we're not we're not great at

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Speaker 1: educating the young. Uh. And this state of affairs is

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Speaker 1: not new, and in fact, we we've been shitty at

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Speaker 1: educating kids basically since we decided it was important to

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Speaker 1: start educating kids. Um. And today, Miles, we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about one of the boldest and most brilliant reformers in

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Speaker 1: the history of education, a man whose ideas and intellectual

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Speaker 1: courage were in some ways still way ahead of even

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Speaker 1: our time. Have you ever heard of Paul Gheb Paul

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Speaker 1: Gahb Geheb. But yeah, well, uh, paulus Gehb is actually

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Speaker 1: the actual nagmebor. We're gonna call him Paul. This episode,

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Speaker 1: because I don't truck with any of that police nonset.

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Speaker 1: What kind of name is Paulus? Anyway? It's some infuriating

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Speaker 1: German name. Those people stick extra use and s is

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Speaker 1: on all sorts of ship. Wow, it sounds like someone

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Speaker 1: who would be like the son of like Caesar, like

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Speaker 1: a Roman. Yeah, a Roman leader would be Paulus. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess actually all of the US names came

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Speaker 1: from Romans just fucking and conquering all over the place.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, Paul Paulus is a Latin surname meaning small

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Speaker 1: or humble. Well, he was a small, humble man. Uh,

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Speaker 1: so we'll talk about him for a little bit. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Paul was born on October eighteen seventy and Gisa on

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Speaker 1: the Rhone Mountains in Germany. His father and grandfather were

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Speaker 1: both pharmaceutical chemists, and his dad was also a botanist

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Speaker 1: who specialized in mosses. So he grew up surrounded and

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Speaker 1: influenced by people who lived lives of the mind. Now,

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Speaker 1: some of Paul's earliest memories were following his father through

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Speaker 1: the forest to look for where mosses. By age eight,

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Speaker 1: Paul signed his letters Paul geheb student of natural sciences.

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Speaker 1: So he's a he's a he's a knowledge lover miles

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Speaker 1: because his dad was dragging to the force and like

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Speaker 1: I pick up that grass over there and put in

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Speaker 1: your pocket. Yeah. Well but he I think he liked it.

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Speaker 1: I think his dad was good at in culcating a

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Speaker 1: love of the natural world and you know, excitement and

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Speaker 1: all that stuff. Uh, So there's something was good at it.

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Speaker 1: There's something like really when I when you said eighteen

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Speaker 1: seventy and they were pharmaceutical chemists, I'm like, that sounds

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Speaker 1: like a comedy. Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna guess most

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Speaker 1: of what his dad is working with is like a

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Speaker 1: mix of heroin and snail poison, and you can give

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Speaker 1: it to little kids. Yeah, and eugit. Now, there's a

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Speaker 1: little bit before they're doing much eugenics. I'll give that

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Speaker 1: to them. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think Paul would

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Speaker 1: have been down with that, but we'll tell you what

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Speaker 1: he was down with a little later. Now, Paul graduated

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Speaker 1: primary school and he went to the universities of Berlin

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Speaker 1: and then Jenna for a total of ten years. He

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Speaker 1: almost got a doctorate. He was a wonderful student who

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Speaker 1: was renowned by his teachers for his sheer thirst for knowledge,

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Speaker 1: he came to hold an almost religious belief in what

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Speaker 1: he called the perfectly integrated human, a person whose mastery

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Speaker 1: of humanism, science, philosophy, and physical activity would blend into

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Speaker 1: one being of almost complete perfection. So this is his

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Speaker 1: his his dreams of a chad. Yeah, I think it's

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Speaker 1: his version of like Enlightenment. It's kind of like a

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Speaker 1: quasi Buddhist. Yeah, the perfect man. You know that that

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Speaker 1: that education can build a perfect person um. Now, in

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Speaker 1: pursuit of achieving this end, he studied theology, philosophy, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic,

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Speaker 1: anatomy and physiology, and the nascent science of psychiatry. He

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Speaker 1: also got ordained as a pastor and studied religion. So

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Speaker 1: that's that's cool. I'm said theology early, So am I

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Speaker 1: Now everybody's ordained thanks to the Church of Life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: me too, That's what I mean. I mean, you know, Miles,

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Speaker 1: if you want, there might still be room on the

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Speaker 1: boat that where Billy and I are gonna go get

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Speaker 1: trained to put bleach at people's asses so we can

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Speaker 1: become reverend doctors. I'm I'm down for that. I mean, honestly,

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Speaker 1: you know, my strength is in scamming and motivational speaking.

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Speaker 1: So if you know, if I can be of service

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Speaker 1: to that greater vision, I would be more than honored

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Speaker 1: to help. Well, uh, well, we'll keep your name on

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Speaker 1: the on the shortlist for the ass bleaching trailer because

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Speaker 1: I just see a lot of people out there who

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Speaker 1: are really, really struggling, could use some kind of light

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Speaker 1: at the end of the tunnel. And you know, there's

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Speaker 1: no there's no better way to have light at the

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Speaker 1: end of the tunnel than by bleaching your asshole. That

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Speaker 1: literally light different. Yeah yeah, so uh. Paul spent some

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Speaker 1: time as a preacher um, but he felt himself more

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Speaker 1: strongly drawn to teach and mold young minds, so he

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Speaker 1: started pursuing this doctorate and he got as far as

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Speaker 1: working in his thesis. But in those days, there was

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Speaker 1: a fee to take your doctor at exam marks, and

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Speaker 1: rather than spend that money on reaching the apex of

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Speaker 1: his ten year educational dreams, Paul Key he decided a

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Speaker 1: wiser use would be to donate the money to a

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Speaker 1: family he knew who faced financial collapse due to their

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Speaker 1: alcoholic father. So yeah, Mr Preacher yeah, so far it

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Speaker 1: seems pretty great right right now? Not sounding like a

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Speaker 1: bastard to me. Yeah, like a man of God who

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Speaker 1: really puts his money where his doctor it isn't. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he never became a doctor, and instead he decided that

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Speaker 1: he was called upon to educate the poor children of

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Speaker 1: Germany's great cities. In nineteen o two, he met up

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Speaker 1: with a fellow named Herman Ltz, who was working towards

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Speaker 1: much the same goal. Both men were part of a

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Speaker 1: movement of educational reform in Germany focused around changing the

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Speaker 1: authoritarian structure of German education at the time, which wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have looked out of place in a movie about the

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Speaker 1: Hitler youth set forty years later. So, like, German education

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Speaker 1: is uh not focused on shall we say, treating children

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Speaker 1: like complete human beings. Like, so, what does that look like?

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Speaker 1: Just screaming corporal punishment. I don't think much screaming. I

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Speaker 1: think more of that like quiet but very stern and

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Speaker 1: unbending German discipline. Um, you know, they're not a shouty people.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the time. I think it was more

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Speaker 1: just sort of um, you know, everything was kind of

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Speaker 1: military like it would it would have there would have

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Speaker 1: been a quasi military feel to education. Talking up would

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Speaker 1: not have been tolerated yet, very rigid, very uh, very

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Speaker 1: shame based. I'm sure too. That was probably their great motivator. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: shame based. And also everyone does the same thing and

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Speaker 1: follows the same structure, so like whether you know we

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Speaker 1: now know kids. You know, different kids learn different ways.

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Speaker 1: They wouldn't put in any they would not like none

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Speaker 1: of that bullshit. In German school all do the same thing.

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Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, we do exploration time where we let

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Speaker 1: the children just sort of do as they want to

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Speaker 1: do to discover themselves. Children don't want things would be

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Speaker 1: the German uh want things they don't want. Paul became

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Speaker 1: part of what the was called sort of the back

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Speaker 1: to nature movement and education UM. He worked with a

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Speaker 1: number of experimental learning institutions and wind up co running

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Speaker 1: what they called a school community in a place called

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Speaker 1: Wickersdorf or Vickersdorf since it's German. Uh. The basic idea

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Speaker 1: behind this place is that it was a democratic learning institution. Students,

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Speaker 1: parents and teachers all elected representatives to vote on decisions

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Speaker 1: about what curriculum to learn. And you know, how to

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Speaker 1: handle different things, so it seems like a pretty cool idea.

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Speaker 1: I'm worth trying. Yeah. Now, Paul's partner called this a

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Speaker 1: self educating community, and for several years it flourished. Now,

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Speaker 1: one major aspect of the Vickersdorf School was a focus

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Speaker 1: on play, dance, music, and sports as all necessary in

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Speaker 1: helping to craft well rounded people. So he didn't just

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Speaker 1: you know, train kids to do whatever it is they

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Speaker 1: were going to do as adults. You you, you know,

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Speaker 1: everyone needed to learn how to dance, everybody needed to

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Speaker 1: learn how to play an instrument, everybody needed to learn sports,

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Speaker 1: like the you know, it's it's this kind of idea

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Speaker 1: of the perfectly integrated man that that Paul's obsessed with.

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Speaker 1: Is that kind of born out of this idea like

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Speaker 1: if you know more things and you push yourself in

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Speaker 1: as many different directions as possible, Like that's that's stretching

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Speaker 1: yourself out for more growth or balance. Basically, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think that's kind of the idea that reminds me like

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Speaker 1: Dirk Navitski, the basketball player. He had a shooting coach

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Speaker 1: that sort of had this same mentality that was like,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna work on your jump shot, but this summer

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Speaker 1: you're learning how to play saxophone. You're gonna do You're

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Speaker 1: gonna you're gonna canoe, and you're gonna start doing like pottery.

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Speaker 1: Now that it's necessarily the same, but it's sort of

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Speaker 1: more like, we're going to help improve your skills by

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Speaker 1: creating new skills that you didn't have in general. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like how Karate Kid taught the karate

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Speaker 1: kid how to do karate by teaching him how to

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Speaker 1: clean how to karate. Yeah, well it's all karate. That's

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Speaker 1: the that's the secret message of Karate Kid is that

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Speaker 1: all of life is karate. Thank you. Shout out to

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Speaker 1: Pat Morita, Mr. The only person who taught me any

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Speaker 1: thing but how to install Wolfenstein on a T I

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Speaker 1: A three. But also he also told you he did.

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Speaker 1: He did teach me that too. It was weird that

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Speaker 1: that karate class required a hundred and sixty dollar graphing calculator,

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Speaker 1: but hey, everything's karate man, even that graphic. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: the Vickersdorf School did very well for for years um

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Speaker 1: but by personality conflicts between paulka Heb and his partner

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Speaker 1: Winikin led to the breakup of the school. Paul resigned

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Speaker 1: and decided it was time for him to start his

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Speaker 1: own school. Now well he'd been at Vickersdorff, Paul had

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Speaker 1: fallen in love with one of his employees, Edith Casseerer.

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Speaker 1: She'd started as a kindergarten teacher, which was not a

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Speaker 1: very common job for a woman at the time, particularly

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Speaker 1: a woman of her social stature, so she was a

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Speaker 1: bit of a boundary breaker. Edith's dad was a wealthy industrialist.

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Speaker 1: The fact that she decided to devote her life to

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Speaker 1: educating the children of the poor rather than marrying rich

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Speaker 1: and increasing the family wealth was something of a slap

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Speaker 1: in the face to her father Max initially, but while

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Speaker 1: he opposed her marriage with Paul, by nineteen ten he'd

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Speaker 1: been won over by Paul's charismatic enthusiasm for educational reform,

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Speaker 1: and when his son in law decided to start a school,

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Speaker 1: Max was only too happy to pour his own money

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Speaker 1: into the project. So very happy story, so far, no way,

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Speaker 1: any of this turns horrible, great great step great father

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Speaker 1: in law. Supporting your dreams sounds like a dream, really

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Speaker 1: sounds wonderful. Yeah. In nineteen ten, the oden Vale School

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Speaker 1: was open for business. Now this is the school that

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Speaker 1: that Paul created with his his dad in law's money.

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Speaker 1: The Odenwald School was a massive evolution from the Vickersdorff School.

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Speaker 1: Paul called it an educational laboratory and considered it a

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Speaker 1: place for daring, bold experiments in educational reforms, which he

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Speaker 1: hoped would spare all of Germany and then the world

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Speaker 1: beyond what he called the sluggish, the sluggish organism of

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Speaker 1: public education. Now, he believed the key to reforming public

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Speaker 1: education was to recognize that the individual personality of the

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Speaker 1: child could not be developed in isolation with Pew builds

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Speaker 1: quietly taking information and taking in tests. Instead, what was

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Speaker 1: needed was a living community of adults and children working

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Speaker 1: together to develop each other. The odin Bold School was

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Speaker 1: a democratic learning institution uh students and teachers had equal

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Speaker 1: votes on the school council, and Paul Gieb's words quote,

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Speaker 1: the authority of the teacher is replaced by the authority

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Speaker 1: of those who together represent the idea of the school.

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Speaker 1: This authority is heated by adults as much as by children.

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Speaker 1: That's the that's theity this is based on. Now, it

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Speaker 1: sounds like it could work. Now, Obviously the adults are,

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Speaker 1: you know, the more experienced and mature individuals, and so

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Speaker 1: they were seen as having the responsibility to guide their

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Speaker 1: students towards knowledge, but they weren't in charge of them

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Speaker 1: in the authoritarian way typical and most of the world

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Speaker 1: at the time, as Paul said, to be governed is

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Speaker 1: completely unknown in our school, for it as a community

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Speaker 1: without superiors, a school without a director, stuff, a school

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Speaker 1: disappears without I mean, it's funny when you started talking

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Speaker 1: about this new school he made, I'm like, uh oh,

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Speaker 1: he's starting to sound like he's getting a bit of

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Speaker 1: a god complex here, where he's almost been like, nah,

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Speaker 1: this is where the new ship is happening, and I'm

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Speaker 1: completely changing everything and it's me yeah, you know, at

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Speaker 1: least on paper. Uh, it sounds like it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a mix of that, because like he's definitely saying the

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Speaker 1: whole system needs to be torn down, and but he's

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Speaker 1: also um saying that, like we as a learning community,

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Speaker 1: you are going to figure out what works better, because

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Speaker 1: that's the real way to to to to spur innovation. Now,

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Speaker 1: I I've had a bunch of details on the organization

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Speaker 1: of the olden Vulge School. In a nineteen two article

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Speaker 1: by Henry Casseer, who was a nephew of Paul Geheb's

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Speaker 1: who attended the olden Vulge school as a child, and

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Speaker 1: here's what he said. He therefore introduced a new structure

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Speaker 1: into the lesson plan, the Curse system. It's essential feature

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Speaker 1: was that for a period of one month, each child

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Speaker 1: had to choose courses in three subjects each time daily

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Speaker 1: for eleven hours. This made it possible for the student

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Speaker 1: to concentrate on intensive studies in limited fields. Other subjects

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Speaker 1: were been taken up during subsequent periods. The emphysis and

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Speaker 1: teaching was less on learning facts than upon learning to

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Speaker 1: learn to work independently, to study and to understand. Another

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Speaker 1: feature of the Curse system was that the children were

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Speaker 1: to be gathered in study groups according to their level

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Speaker 1: of maturity and knowledge, rather than according to age groups.

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Speaker 1: Thus a child might find himself with older children and

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Speaker 1: one subject for which he was gifted, but with the

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Speaker 1: younger children and another subject where he had little previous schooling.

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Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it sounds about

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Speaker 1: right balanced, like people around your intellectual level and whatnot. Now,

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Speaker 1: Paul was critical of gender segregation, which was very much

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Speaker 1: common in German public schools at the time. The olden

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Speaker 1: Vold School did not segregate students by gender. It was

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Speaker 1: divided into families. Each family run by a teacher who

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Speaker 1: helped guide the children. Families consisted of both boys and girls,

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Speaker 1: because he believed it was critical to human development to

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Speaker 1: have gender integration. Before his career as an educator, he'd

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Speaker 1: been a militant crusader for women's emancipation. His forty four

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Speaker 1: page application to the Imperial German government to start the

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Speaker 1: oden Vall School had included thirty pages on the importance

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Speaker 1: of gender integration. He wrote, co education means joyfully to

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Speaker 1: affirm the polarity of the sexes in both theory and

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Speaker 1: practice and attitude and living, to integrate pedagogically the rich

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Speaker 1: sources of wealth it produces into all fields of life

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Speaker 1: and culture, and to apply them fruitfully to the development

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Speaker 1: of the child, which is pretty welk for nineteen ten. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I just I don't know. I know

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Speaker 1: what this show is, yea, And what you said earlier,

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Speaker 1: and now I'm might like now I'm starting to see

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Speaker 1: the chess moves. Yeah you what what what what do

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Speaker 1: you what do you mean by that? Well? You said

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Speaker 1: you were alluding to some kind of abuse, And I

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Speaker 1: just feel like in any sort of predatory situation, like

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Speaker 1: a predator is looking for the most target rich environment,

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Speaker 1: and and advocating for integration means many children of both genders.

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Speaker 1: And I just I don't know, I'm just I just

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Speaker 1: know there's a turn. I've done this showing up with you,

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Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna start dry heaving and being disgusted

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Speaker 1: because humanity is just a gigantic waste pile. Uh. But

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Speaker 1: go on, I'm waiting with you. Put a put a

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Speaker 1: pin in that target rich environment. Than we'll come back

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Speaker 1: to that later. Uh. Yeah. So Paul, Paul's a reformer, uh,

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Speaker 1: and he thinks that this is going to act as

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Speaker 1: like a laboratory to help figure out the way schools

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Speaker 1: in Germany should work in the future. And you know

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's on paper. It seems like a noble

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Speaker 1: pursuit here, like you can't really say, you know, objectively,

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Speaker 1: I understand what this person is going for. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: Paul School was as successful as it was revolutionary. Over

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Speaker 1: its first years. It would educate men who came to

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Speaker 1: be some of the finest artistic and philosophical minds in Germany. Klaussman,

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Speaker 1: Thomas Man's son went to the Odenwald School. So did

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Speaker 1: Hans Beth, winner of the nineteen sixty seven Nobel Prize

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Speaker 1: for Physics. I could go on, but most of the

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Speaker 1: famous alumni are German famous, so their names are not

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Speaker 1: particularly well known to most listeners. Were trying a lot

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Speaker 1: of famous German thinkers who came from here. I only

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Speaker 1: wrote down the two, but there's a whole list of them,

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Speaker 1: and they're all very German sounding. Um. Now. By the

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Speaker 1: time the late nineteen twenties rolled around, the Odenwald School

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Speaker 1: had developed an international reputation as one of the finest

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Speaker 1: centers of learning and all of your bad yeah yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: pretty cool. Now. Paul wrote and spoke eloquently on the

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Speaker 1: rights of children, and his speeches are filled with quotes

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Speaker 1: like this. There is no greater miracle among the inexhaustible

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Speaker 1: miracles of creation, which in the strictest sense is unlimited

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Speaker 1: in its richness, than the miraculous fact that nature dispenses

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Speaker 1: its seed every day with generous amplitude, and that not

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Speaker 1: one of its fruits is exactly the equal of the other.

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Speaker 1: The younger the child, the more we enjoy it because

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Speaker 1: we rejoice in the wealth of individuality and originality. What. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that could go a couple of ways, couldn't it. Wait,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what's the richness part. That's a great question, Miles.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the charitable undertaking of the is

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Speaker 1: that you know, younger children haven't had their individuality beaten

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Speaker 1: out of them as much by this this harsh German

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Speaker 1: system that we that we live in designed to produce

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Speaker 1: you know, soldiers and factory workers. And so it's a

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Speaker 1: joy to spend time with with young children because you

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Speaker 1: can really just cultivate their individuality and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: So that that's one way you could take. It's weird

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Speaker 1: because ones like yeah, before they're completely indoctrinated with like

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Speaker 1: societal expectations, they still have that purity, that innocence. And

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Speaker 1: also you can mold them too, like they're more pliable

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Speaker 1: at this age, like they're they're they're malleable in terms

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Speaker 1: of how they're looking at the world and things like that.

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Speaker 1: I Mean, it's funny because the first part I get

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Speaker 1: because a lot of people like, if you're into any

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Speaker 1: kind of spiritual texts and things like that always refer to.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you're a child, you're sort of at

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Speaker 1: this level of consciousness where you can observe many things

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Speaker 1: and still enjoy them because of your not being hit

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Speaker 1: with all kinds of societal norms and things like that,

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Speaker 1: or cultural patterns of thinking. So when I'm like, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like we should be more childlike at times, well we

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Speaker 1: we we that is so far as we As we

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Speaker 1: come to our first ad break, miles, everything seems great,

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Speaker 1: Everything seems fine, Everything seems very healthy, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that that's how it will continue for the remainder of

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Speaker 1: the twelve pages that I've written. Um, but you know what,

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Speaker 1: what's also fine. You know what we'll save us smiles.

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Speaker 1: The products and services that support this show. Oh fantastic.

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Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans hosted Behind the Bastards. And if there's

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Speaker 1: one thing I hate more than fascism, it's finishing a

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Speaker 1: long work day and realizing I have no food left.

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Speaker 1: It happened to me the other day after writing a

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Speaker 1: three part episode, and then I realized that I had

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Speaker 1: a Hello Fresh box that was just sitting out in

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Speaker 1: front of my house. I cooked some delicious fish tacos

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Speaker 1: and it was awesome. Hello Fresh is the easy way

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Speaker 1: to get home cooked meals simply you don't have to

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Speaker 1: go to the grocery store endless amounts of times or

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Speaker 1: spend all that money on takeout food. They're step to

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431
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432
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,280
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433
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,680
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434
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: B nine. Check it out. We're back now. Uh. We're

435
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: talking about Germany obviously in the nineteen twenties here, miles.

436
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 1: And if we all know one thing about Germany and in

437
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties is then it turns into Germany

438
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, where we like we're gonna be

439
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 1: talking about Nazis, and that is the time that it

440
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,679
Speaker 1: is now. Um. Now, Paul de Heiba was not a

441
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: fan of the Nazi Party as it rose to power

442
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 1: in the late twenties and early thirties. Now, the Odenwald

443
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 1: School was not a political instead tuition, but obviously it's

444
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: focused on liberty, freethinking and gender integration did not jel

445
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: well with fascism. Um. It also drew in harassment because

446
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 1: the school's funder and Max Cassarra, was an assimilated Jew.

447
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 1: So there's there's a number of of dangerous things going

448
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: on with the Old Wale School. Uh. And I'm gonna

449
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: quote now from a right up I found in TNF

450
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 1: about how the olden Wald School handled the rise of

451
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 1: the Nazis. The first in a series of Nazi raids

452
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: on the communist jew Odenwald School took place in March

453
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty three and led to the purge of the faculty,

454
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: the abolition of co educational residences, and the end of

455
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: student self government. New Nazi teachers formed chapters of the

456
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 1: Hitler Youth in League of German Girls, the Nazi educational

457
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: leadership of HESSE, hoping to benefit from the school's fame

458
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 1: forbade gheheb to close it in response to these measures

459
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 1: because he pursued a dual strategy in nineteen thirty three.

460
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: On one hand, he promised cooperation, agreed to not see mandates,

461
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,719
Speaker 1: and repeatedly told the authorities that his school's goals were

462
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: consistent with those of the New Germany. At the same time,

463
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 1: because he privately condemned the Nazi regime and made plans

464
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: to immigrate and take some of his pupils with him,

465
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: he hastened the closure of the own Volge school by

466
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: secretly encouraging parents to withdraw their children. With the help

467
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: of a sympathetic official and the reich Ministry of the Interior,

468
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: he closed the school and moved to Switzerland in March

469
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty four. Max Casser believed that his son in

470
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 1: law was not sufficiently accommodating towards the Nazis, and for

471
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: months disapproved his plans to immigrate in Switzerland. He struggled

472
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 1: at first, but by the end of the war, the

473
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 1: Cold to Humanity, which is the school he started in Switzerland,

474
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: was an acclaimed haven for young refugees from all over Europe. Meanwhile,

475
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: a new more explicitly. Nazi school opened at the old

476
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: Old Old Invulge School. During the war, however, its directors

477
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 1: successfully protected some children of Jews and dissidents. That's a

478
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: good story, right, sound great? Yeah, he does, we go

479
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: along with the Nazis. His father in law, you said,

480
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: who was the assimilated Jewish business person. He was telling him,

481
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: you're not being Nazi enough. Yeah, that's actually really common.

482
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: And I mean a lot of a lot of assimilated

483
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 1: German Jews were like, just work along with them, it'll

484
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: be k. I mean, it's like anything when you sort

485
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: of internalized that sort of hatred to in order to

486
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: survive and operate with society. But yeah, okay, that must

487
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: have been weird. Yeah, it must have been. He has

488
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: to leave the Germany, which, yeah, it wouldn't have been

489
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 1: a friendly place for him. They started school in Switzerland,

490
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: but the old and of Alge school continue to operate

491
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: in Germany, and after the fall of Nazism it reopened

492
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: under its original operating principles, run by a series of

493
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 1: dedicated educators and some child rapists. Um yea, now yeah,

494
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, yeah, uh so, I I don't know how

495
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: to make this transition um, yeah, thank you. The the

496
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 1: Old and Volge School was just filled with child molesters

497
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: as an average day at Disney World. Um so yeah, yeah,

498
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: this was as a result of like the fall of Nazism,

499
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: like that when they restarted it up, or is this

500
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: was this? This is even predates the Third Reich. A

501
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 1: lot is into these miles. Now, none of this was

502
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: known at the time, you know. What was known for

503
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: decades was that after naziason fell, the Old Volge School

504
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: continued to operate and be a very prestigious learning institution

505
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: for children from all over Europe, um operating under enlightened

506
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: principles of student self government and gender reintegration. That's the

507
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: surface story. But in nineteen reports were first made public

508
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 1: that Gerald Becker, who ran the school from nine nine

509
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: eighty five, had been reported as a child molester by

510
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: several of the kids in his care. Investigations into this

511
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: were suspended because so much time had passed. At least

512
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 1: that was the official justification. The reality of the situation

513
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: is that with its high rate of prestigious alumni, the

514
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: olden Volge School and its leader were connected people and

515
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: everything was swept under the rug. Now Becker had first

516
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 1: come to the school in the late nineteen sixties. Now,

517
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: this was a time of increasing liberalism and openness in society. Becker,

518
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: in the school's music teacher, a guy named Wolfgang, took

519
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: horrific advantage of this. Both men lived in the same house,

520
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: one at the top and one at the bottom floor,

521
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: with their families of children living in between them. Since

522
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: both men were pedophiles, this was essentially the perfect living

523
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: in the situation for predators. They picked specific children to

524
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,959
Speaker 1: be in their families, who they then molested. Pupils recalled

525
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 1: that they were regularly grouped in the morning and forced

526
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 1: to masturbate their instructors in the afternoon. One of those children,

527
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: Adrian Kay, later recalled this, back then, we children didn't

528
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,479
Speaker 1: even discuss the things we saw and experienced on an

529
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 1: almost daily basis. It was a closed system. Another student recalled,

530
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: I remember being woken up as a thirteen year old

531
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: by Gerald Becker sucking my penis like a possessed man. So,

532
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: oh my god, not great, not great, not great. Yeah. Wait,

533
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: the family thing, you were saying, that's part of that

534
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: structured like a school structures. Yeah yeah, yeah, so that

535
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 1: Geba instituted. Yet so the teacher. Okay, so it's a

536
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: three story home where each teacher is on either side

537
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: of the middle part, which is all of the students

538
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: who are the quote unquote family, and the and the

539
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: fucking teachers pick their family from the the pool of

540
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: enrolled students and this way. So this but this comes

541
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: out in the eighties, you said, or in the night

542
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: in the nineties, and this comes out in the late nineties.

543
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: Well it makes sense because for the longest time, we

544
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: just had the we just were like, I don't know, man,

545
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: we don't know how to We're not equipped to actually

546
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: talk about assault against children. We'll just call it like

547
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: stay away from that person or something's different about that fellow. Yeah. Yeah,

548
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: And that's kind of what what goes on here. Um

549
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: although that I should say, that's what it seems like

550
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: is going on here at first. Um. So, numerous people's

551
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: reported abuse at the hands of Gerald Becker and his friend,

552
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: the music teacher, but the teachers that, like kids, reported

553
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: this too at the Old and Bold School tended to

554
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: ignore are those reports. In one teacher, Barbara b was

555
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: told by a student that Becker had molested them on

556
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: the previous night and paid for the pleasure with a

557
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: stereo and a pair of sneakers. Now this teacher reported

558
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: this to Becker's successor, who was the new head of

559
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: the school after him, but nothing was done. Becker was

560
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: other than his child molestation um a a shining example

561
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: of a dedicated educator UM and someone who was clearly

562
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: uh respected in the field. When he wasn't molesting kids,

563
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: he gave vivid speeches celebrating the enlightened beliefs of the

564
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: Odenwald School. Former teacher Salmon and Sarry recalled whenever Gerald

565
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: Becker gave a speech, he always said ours was the

566
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: world's best school with the world's best teachers. Now, part

567
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: of the why this was allowed to go on for

568
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: so long were the deep connections Gerald Becker enjoyed to

569
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: the German government. He was friend and colleague to a

570
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: fellow named Helmett Becker, who was not related to him.

571
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: But Helmett was the guy who first spearheaded the effort

572
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: to reform the West German edgercational system after World War Two.

573
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: He was the first director of the Max Planck Institute

574
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: and a huge fan of the olden Volde School. Helmet

575
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: described this in other independent schools as a kind of

576
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: incubator within the public school system. He then added this

577
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: applies in particular to boarding schools and which relaxed encounters

578
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: between parents and pupils provides better protection for human sexuality.

579
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: What what? Yeah? Well, did you notice something something word

580
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: about that line? Say that again one more time, out

581
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: loud in English. Yeah. He described the olden Volde School

582
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: and other independent schools as an incubator within the public

583
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: school system and added this applies in particular to boarding

584
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: schools and which relaxed encounters between parents and pupils provides

585
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,719
Speaker 1: better protection for human sexuality, better protections for That's an

586
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: odd thing to say, isn't it. Yeah, there's a number

587
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: of quotes like that that are odd things to say

588
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: and and kind of hard to figure out, Like uh

589
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: uh at the time, people must have just had the

590
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: same reaction you did, but there were no clear explanations

591
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: why that could sound really fucking terrible or really smart.

592
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, it's like it's like Paul Gehee's

593
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: line about enjoying little kids, where it's like that could

594
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: mean a few things, and you probably give him the

595
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt. You think it's like an educator like, well,

596
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: there's no way it's for some kind of malicious intent. Yeah,

597
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: a little. Now, Gerald Becker hired Helmet to work at

598
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: the ode involved School. Now, Helmet's godson was a student

599
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: at the school, and within a few months of coming

600
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: on board, helmets gods son reached out to his godfather

601
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: to complain that principal Gerald Becker had climbed into his

602
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: bed to try to have sex with him. Uh. You

603
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: might expect this to have led to a gigantic ship show,

604
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: since Helmet had the influence to demand just about anything

605
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: he wanted from the school and the government. But instead

606
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: of doing anything, Helmet recommended that Gerald's seek treatment for

607
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: his child molesting problem. Gerald was sent off on what

608
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: amounted to a medical vacation, then returned to the school

609
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: and molested more children. Um, I mean, it's just it's

610
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: that's pretty catholic A sounding exactly. I was saying, like,

611
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: it's the same pattern of dealing with like I guess

612
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: not of not dealing with it, where you're being like, Okay,

613
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: we're pretty sure this happened, but we don't even know

614
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: what to do, so put him on time out? Like

615
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: what what is what is a medical vacation in those days,

616
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: like just to go to some kind of like yeah,

617
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: I think he probably went to like, yeah, a lot

618
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: of steam baths. And the reason he's protected is because

619
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: of his like how respected he is within like the

620
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: upper echelons of the government. He's respected, his school is respected.

621
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: Helmet who reformed German education after World War Two is like,

622
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: you know, his his name gets all tied up in

623
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: the old Bulge School's reputation. So it's it's it's nobody's

624
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: powerful's best interest for anything to get out about what's happened.

625
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: What what what Gerald Becker is doing to these students. Um.

626
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: So Gerald Becker got to die before he faced justice,

627
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: which is what you always want to hear in a

628
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 1: story like this. UM. Another person who died before facing

629
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: justice was Walter Schaefer, who was Gerald's successor as head

630
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: of the school and the man who probably worked hardest

631
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: to cover up his crimes. Now, in the late nineteen nineties,

632
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: the German media completely ignored the revelations about one of

633
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: the school's proudest institutions. Um. None of this really came

634
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: out until two thousand seven, when a woman named Margarita

635
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,399
Speaker 1: Kaufman became the school's headmistress. She was the first person

636
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: at the Old Valge School with any sort of influence

637
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: who took the problem of child molestations seriously. In two

638
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: thousand ten, she became aware of the mounting number of

639
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,720
Speaker 1: child molestation allegations, and she brought in a former judge,

640
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: Bridget Tillman, to investigate. According to Dr Spiegel quote, Bridget

641
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: Tilman and a lawyer published a report on the school,

642
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: and they run up to the anniversary there no holds

643
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: barred appraisal paints a frightening picture of widespread abuse at

644
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: the Old Involge School. They identified more than a dozen perpetrators,

645
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: more than seventy victims, incited seventeen witnesses alone who justified

646
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: against the school's longtime principle, Gerald Becker. So in the

647
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: late nineteen nineties you start getting these reports that Becker's

648
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: molested some kids. And then in the mid oughts, the

649
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: school's new headmistress convenes an investigation and they find that

650
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: actually more than a dozen teachers at the school and

651
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: staff members have been molesting kids. So the first they

652
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: thought it was just the one. Yeah, they thought it

653
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: was just Gerald and his The music and the music teacher,

654
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: right right, right, yeah, And then in after the investigation,

655
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: like oh it's there's there's Yeah, they start looking into

656
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: it more. And the more they look into it, the

657
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: more perpetrators they find, and the more victims they find.

658
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 1: And is this like with talking to past pupils and

659
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: things like that, And then did they discover that even

660
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: currently at the time in the nineties, they're also dealing

661
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: with like a large number of Oh yes, Yet the

662
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,240
Speaker 1: further back they go, the more allegations they start to find.

663
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: But then they but they found twelve people that were

664
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: currently working there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow, I mean it's yeah,

665
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 1: it also makes sense. I mean obviously it's a shift

666
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: in like the culture too. But like when was there

667
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 1: was there ever another woman directing the school prior to her?

668
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think she was the first

669
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: female headmistress in the school. Was she hired as some

670
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: kind of reformer you think? Or she was just because

671
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: she's a woman and a little like less interested in

672
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: protecting male predators. Was like, something's wrong, I actually care

673
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: about these kids. What the funk is this? Yeah? I

674
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: think she I don't know if it's because she was

675
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 1: a woman, or just because she was a better person

676
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: than the other teachers. But not to say that being

677
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 1: a woman that makes you more interesting. But I think,

678
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: like I think, no deviation from the pattern before. Yeah,

679
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: we we take a strong stance here that that, you know,

680
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: modern women can be child child molesters too. I just

681
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: want to be clear about that. Oh yes, I'm sure

682
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: that's been in past episodes too. Yeah, absolutely, um actually yeah,

683
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: the Georgia Tan episodes. Um so uh yeah. So they

684
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 1: started looking into this, and more they look into this,

685
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: the more o involved teachers they find who had molested students,

686
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: and the more students they find who had been molested. Uh. Now,

687
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: this story finally broke into the mainstream news in two

688
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: thousand ten, uh and a series of journalists from different

689
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: papers and law enforcement agencies began to conduct wider ranging

690
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 1: investigations into the Old Invulge School and what they found

691
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: was fucking soul crushing miles. I'm gonna quote now from

692
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: a two Irish Times article. Some eight teachers, including a

693
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: former headmaster, have been a huge of sexually abusing at

694
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: least thirty three former students. Now former students have told

695
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: of torture. Rituals were older students, raped younger students and

696
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: scalded their genitals. What I've heard completely goes beyond all imagining,

697
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: said Miss Kaufman, head mistress of the school since two

698
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: thousand seven. I just don't know how this kind of

699
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: behavior carried on without teachers hearing cries of pain. In

700
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: an interview with Desight newspaper, ms Coaufman said that the

701
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: school operated in the past like a cult, with abusive

702
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: allegations suppressed out of a misplaced off for the reforming

703
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: pedagogical concepts of Gerald Becker, who was principal from nineteen

704
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: seventy two to nineteen five. So that's the way this

705
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: starts being spun in the two thousand's, which is that

706
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: they're definitely trying to trace this problem back to uh

707
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: Gerald Becker. Right. So that's the story as it comes in,

708
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: is that this guy comes in because he's so respected, um,

709
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: nobody notices his abuse, and he enables other people to

710
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 1: commit abuse. And that's the where where the olden Volge

711
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: School goes wrong starting in the nineteen seventies. That's that's

712
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 1: the that's because of that guy, that one bad apple

713
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 1: that spoiled the butch uh As reports came in, Becker

714
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: was revealed as the ringleader for what can only be

715
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: described as a gang of pedophile teachers. They wrapped themselves

716
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: in the cloak of progressivism, emphasizing the olden Volge School's

717
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: reputation for forward thinking, experimental teaching methods to hide abuse.

718
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: Former students reported that teachers saw themselves as revolutionaries, fighting

719
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: against dodgy ideas about education and prudishness and replacing them

720
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: with the ideals of the sexual revolution. To this end,

721
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: Becker and other teachers children showered, viewed child pornography while working,

722
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: and regularly woke children up in the morning by masturbating them.

723
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: So classic revolutionaries. Um yeah. So by the time all

724
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: this came out, Gerald was old and sick, and he

725
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,320
Speaker 1: died before facing any justice. As already stated, his partner

726
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: like a romantic partner. Hartmt. Von Hintig, was a prominent

727
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: educational expert in Germany, and he said this at the time.

728
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: I have no doubt that these friendly gestures were never

729
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: carried out against the will of the students. Friendly gestures, Yeah,

730
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 1: surprise assault while you're sleeping as a friendly fucking I don't.

731
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I would say it depends on your friend group.

732
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: The thing about this too is like it's also what

733
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 1: you're what you're talking about is like a cult too,

734
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: because you're saying precisely because other people were in awe

735
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: of this fucking revolutionary approach to abusing kids or unquote

736
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: unquote edgy cation or whatever you wanna call it, that

737
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: that is what sort of uh like sort of enabled

738
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: this culture of silence because like, well was it that

739
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: they saw it and they were rationalizing like, well, I

740
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: guess that's a revolutionary method, or it's like, well we're

741
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: taking the good in the bad. It's like there's so

742
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: much going on here, and we're we're going to dig

743
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 1: into it a lot because there's like there's there's a

744
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: fucking crazy amount going on, just like my wheels are.

745
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: This has been one of the harder episodes to like

746
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: structure because there's so much to get into. But yeah,

747
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: we're we're gonna keep delving into this because it just

748
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: there's layers upon layers. So further reporting by a website

749
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: called The Local, which is a German paper, revealed that

750
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,240
Speaker 1: students at the Old and Bulge School were regularly applied

751
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: with drugs and alcohol, and even used by teachers as

752
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: sex slaves for whole weekends. I'm gonna quote from Dear

753
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 1: Spiegel again. Eventually the permissiveness became almost total, and it

754
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: wasn't the tormentors but the tormented who were made to

755
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 1: feel guilty. The declared minimum objective was to be bisexual.

756
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,479
Speaker 1: If you didn't achieve that, you were a failure, says

757
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: former people Gerald Are, who came to the school in

758
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five and was first abused by his music

759
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: teacher the following year. We knew one thing. Everything was

760
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: permitted at any time, Gerald Are, at the alumnus who

761
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: recalled Gerald beckerfilating him like a possessed man, says of

762
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: his school days. So everything is permitted at any times.

763
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 1: The the way these kids are raised to sort of

764
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: expect things are going to work in the olden Balde school, right,

765
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: so that it's almost like nine seven. But nothing was

766
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: a surprise to It's like accepted. The culture of the

767
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: school is ship's going to happen because that's just how

768
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,919
Speaker 1: things work at the Olden Vould. Yeah, And at first

769
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: they think it just goes back to the early seventies,

770
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: but as these stories come out, more people start to

771
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: tell their own experiences. One of these people who related

772
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: her experiences was German television presenter Emily Freed, who attended

773
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: the olden Balde School starting in nineteen sixty nine. In

774
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 1: a book published to mark the school's centenary, she recounts

775
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: how a teacher coaxed her into playing strip poker in

776
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: his apartment. She said he goaded her for being a prudish,

777
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: petit bourgeoisie, white being girl, until she finally caved into

778
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: the pressure, although she was embarrassed and suppressed her memory

779
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 1: of the incident for decades. So if you don't funk us,

780
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: you're bougie. You're bougie. Yeah, you're too prudish. And the

781
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: whole like, was the bisexuality thing born out of like

782
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: an actual philosophical I think, or it is purely like

783
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: we want to be I don't know. We just want

784
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: people to be as sexually elastic as possible. That's it.

785
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: We want people to be sexually elastic. We want them

786
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: all fucking uh. And like they wanted the students also

787
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: fucking other students, because the more of that that was

788
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 1: going on, the more it camouflaged the teachers predations on

789
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: these kids. Oh my god, yeah, I mean it's fucking

790
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 1: wild arc like yeah, yeah, you know what won't create

791
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: a culture of child molestation? These goods and services. That

792
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 1: these goods and services, that's right, Miles, I knew that.

793
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: I love these. That's that's our only line for advertisers,

794
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 1: and it's a good one. Products. We're back. Yeah, it's

795
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: about to get so depressing her. Um now, When the

796
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: news of all of the rapes at the olden Volge

797
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: school came out, Emily, who was just talking about being

798
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: called bougie for not wanting to fund her teacher, wrote

799
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: a column for a Frankfurt newspaper. In that column, she

800
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,399
Speaker 1: explained that for her, some of this was like her

801
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 1: feelings of whe whether or not to report anything, or

802
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: whether or not this was okay. Her like emotions on

803
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: the matter were very muddled by the fact that the

804
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: olden Volge school took like, you know, what you might

805
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: call a healthy attitude towards sexual relationships between students. You know,

806
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: they didn't punish kids for starting relationships or whatever. These

807
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: are teenagers or whatnot. They had like you could see

808
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 1: how at the time someone would be like, oh, they're

809
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: just trying like not to be as as sex negative

810
00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: as a school is if you don't know about all

811
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 1: child molestation that's going on. Um. So she noted in

812
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: her column, it was suggested to students that they respected principle,

813
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: understood them very well, and that it was a sign

814
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,439
Speaker 1: of recognition to show mutual affection. We students were happy

815
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: to be able to explore sexuality in an angst free climate.

816
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: That some teachers use this freedom as a cover for

817
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: their assaults as a scandal. So that's how Emily winds

818
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: up even you know, as a victim of this, Emily

819
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: winds up feeling like, well, the school was basically good

820
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: and this climate was basically good. It was just some

821
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 1: teachers taking advantage of the system. Um, which is you

822
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: know kind of I think, um, I think as we'll

823
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: see her trying to protect herself emotionally a little bit

824
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: by by bye, because she you know, that's one of

825
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: the confusing things about being molested in a situation like this.

826
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure the years of her the old and Vulgueool

827
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: were very positive, had positive memories for a number of

828
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: the kids who were victims there. So you've got to

829
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: try to like build this up as like no and

830
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: the basic system was good. There was just a few

831
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: people who uh use the freedom to abuse other like

832
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 1: abuse the freedom essentially. That that's the way this this

833
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: young woman, or she's not a young woman anymore, but

834
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: that's the way she kind of thinks back on her

835
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: time in the school and I think tries to protect

836
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 1: herself emotionally. But there's evidence that, like even between the

837
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: students themselves, a lot of what happened at the Old

838
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: in Vulgied School was profoundly abusive. There's at least one

839
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,800
Speaker 1: report of an adolescent girl who was molested by several

840
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: of her classmates. Um. And it's worth noting here that

841
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: while all these children were a definition victims, um, a

842
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 1: number of them victimized each other too. So this is

843
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: a very confusing and messy situation. Yeah, because the culture

844
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: was just just a fucking free for all at every level,

845
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 1: and there's just no it's a pure chaos. Yeah. Yeah,

846
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: And this is seen as like like ideologically important, revolutionary,

847
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: Like that's really how the teachers frame it to the students.

848
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: Um that like what's going on at the Old in

849
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: Vulgied School is just too far ahead of mainstream morality

850
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: for most people. That I understand, Like, where how would

851
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: they extend that logic out? It's like, how is us

852
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:13,479
Speaker 1: assaulting each other making us better students are more balanced people? Yeah,

853
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's you know, it's very

854
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: easy to convince people to do something terrible if the

855
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: thing that they were already doing wasn't great, and like

856
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: German sexual morays in the nineteen sixties and seventies, uh,

857
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: weren't the healthiest that humans have ever developed. Um, just

858
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: like American sexual mores at the same time, you know,

859
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: they're they're very repressive, they're very like based on shame

860
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: and guilt, and that's not healthy. So you can get

861
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: people to buy into something that's even worse if the

862
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 1: thing that they grew up doing is also fucked up

863
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: right or to them it's like, yeah, this definitely is

864
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: an optimal I guess, yeah, what's the harm in trying

865
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: the complete other side of the spectrum? Exactly? Um. One

866
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: people at the school at the time later recalled we

867
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: were taught that we were different from everyone else, and

868
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 1: what child, what person can remain unmoved by the sense

869
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 1: of constantly being marveled at. We were real daredevils in

870
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: our own paradise behind Golden Gates. So fucking confusing here.

871
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: Even at the time, it was not paradise for all

872
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: of those kids. Adam Kerfer, a former student at Oldenwald,

873
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: called the school hell and described regular forced showers with

874
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: his teachers. He claimed his music teacher, who was the

875
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: head of his family, regularly pimped him and other boys

876
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 1: out to friends on school trips. So you get this

877
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: mix of students who like later on recognize, yeah, we

878
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 1: were abused, but it was also a really good time.

879
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: And these students who have consistently been like, no, this

880
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: was a nightmare from the beginning. So really different recollections

881
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: from different kids. Yeah, if it's just sort of subconsciously

882
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: like anything, like you know, that cycle of abuse just continues.

883
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 1: Other people like if the ones that do continue were

884
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: just resigned to the fact that that was you know,

885
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: that what that's what was their reality going forward. Yeah,

886
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: I think that's that's what's going on here. So once

887
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: all of this broke in two thousand and ten, the

888
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 1: school board resigned under mass outrage that they had chosen

889
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: to investigate the matter internally back in when the first

890
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: reports on Becker came out rather than report all that

891
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: mass child rape to the police. Head Mistress Kaufman thought

892
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: this line of reasoning was bullshit. She blamed the cover

893
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 1: up on what she called mafia structures with the powerful

894
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 1: friends that gerald Becker had accumulated, including heads of state

895
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: and newspaper publishers. Uh yeah, there's like a let's see.

896
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: One of the like articles I read on this in

897
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:39,280
Speaker 1: Women's Studies Quarterly describes it as a like institutional protection

898
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: because the olden Volge School is seen as like such

899
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: a key aspect of like the educational reform movement in Germany.

900
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: So like, because these people are proud of the educational

901
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: reform since the Nazis, they can't discard the oden Volged

902
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: school because it's kind of at the forefront of that,

903
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: even though it's very clear that like really fucked up

904
00:48:57,840 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: ships going on there. So that's part of why this

905
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: all gets uped under the rug now the h The

906
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 1: author of that article um Pito Sexuality and especially German

907
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: History and Women Studies Quarterly, suggests that a lot of

908
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: the explanation for why all this molestation happened at Oldenvald

909
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,720
Speaker 1: in the seventies and eighties is tied into the sexual

910
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 1: revolution and the intellectual climate of the nineteen sixties and seventies,

911
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:26,280
Speaker 1: particularly in Germany. The author credits the concept of pedagogical eros,

912
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: which was first cooked up by a guy named Gustav Weinken,

913
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: who was Paul Geheb's old partner at the school he

914
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: helped run before founding Odenwald. Now, the term pedagogical eros

915
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: referred initially to homosexual erotic attraction between a pupil and

916
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: a teacher. Vinikin didn't see this as a bad thing.

917
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: He was very influenced by Platonic Greek attitudes towards teacher

918
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 1: student relationships, which were often erotic and sexual. And we

919
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: can look back in time and say like, we're profoundly

920
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: abusive as well. Um, but he's looking at this stuff,

921
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: is like, oh, this is the way teaching ought to be.

922
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: This is Paul Geheb's old partner in the early nineteen hundreds.

923
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: I was looking back and like, hey man, they had

924
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: some good ideas. Yeah. I don't know why, kids, I

925
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: don't know why we're I don't know why we're disrespecting

926
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: our history or some ship. Yeah, is that really just

927
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: oh my god? Heros that's like, yeah, it's so weird

928
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 1: though too, Like the language and the vocabulary these people

929
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: create to not what they're doing what it is. Yeah,

930
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,399
Speaker 1: you have to have that language around it, otherwise people

931
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: will realize, well, you're just you're just talking about fucking kids, dude.

932
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,399
Speaker 1: Right If if they were up front, it's like, yeah,

933
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: and then I just abused the kids sexually. That that

934
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 1: they wrapped themselves in ideology to get away with this

935
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: sort of It's like, right, I guess that's the hallmark

936
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: of any fucked up movement. Yeah, it's the same thing

937
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: that the Catholic priest did. It's just a different ideology,

938
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: but it's it's the same thing. Um. So you have

939
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: these very old ideas about like Greek you know, pedagogical

940
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: eros and stuff, um, and you have these things kind

941
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,919
Speaker 1: of merging very modern ideas of the sexual revolution because

942
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties and seventies is a time when people

943
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: are increasingly in the West lifting taboos against sex um,

944
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: which is good. But when you mix it with with

945
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: these child molesty desires and some of these like old

946
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 1: bad ideas, you get this very toxic slurry um that results.

947
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 1: And it's it's a very complicated thing that happens, but

948
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 1: it's not just at the Odenwald School. And this is

949
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 1: where we start talking about what was happening in the

950
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: rest of Germany at the time, because there was actually

951
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 1: a very weird and virulent strain of pro child fucking

952
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 1: ideology that ran rampant among the German intellectual community in

953
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: the first decades after World War Two. Have you ever

954
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 1: heard of the kinder Latin movement? Uh, that sounds familiar. Yeah,

955
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 1: it's it's not a it's it's a fairly prominent thing.

956
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: It's started in the nineteen seventies as a reaction to

957
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: the unspeakable horrors of Nazism. The basic goal of the

958
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 1: movement was to raise children to be more obedient, disobedient

959
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 1: to adults. So people think at like what happens in

960
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: the Nazis, and they're like, oh, we shouldn't like this

961
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:08,959
Speaker 1: culture of obedience that we've inculcated in Germany has horrible consequences.

962
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: So we need to inculcate a culture of disobedience now

963
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: within our students, which makes sense, right, You can see

964
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,359
Speaker 1: the logical through line there. Absolutely see why you would

965
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: come to that conclusion. Now In previous eras German child

966
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 1: rearing had placed a strong emphasis on obedience above all else.

967
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: The idea was that raising children in Germany had to

968
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: completely change in order to avoid a repeat of the

969
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: horrors of the thirties and forties. So this all came

970
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: from a good place, but it didn't stay in a

971
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: good place. And I'm gonna quote again from that Women

972
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: Studies Quarterly article. Within the anti authoritarian kinder Lattan movement,

973
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 1: which was closely associated with the early phage of the

974
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: New Women's Movement, great significance was assigned to the idea

975
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,959
Speaker 1: of liberating child sexuality. This was linked to a vision

976
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,760
Speaker 1: reaching back specifically to Wilhelm Reich, who held that liberation

977
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 1: of child sexuality would lead to the liberation of human beings.

978
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 1: The idea fitted with a politicization of desire in the

979
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: context of the nineteen sixty movements, and can be seen

980
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: analogously as a politicization of childhood's sexuality. The proclamation of

981
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: their liberation was expected to contribute to their childhood happiness.

982
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 1: A number of texts from the West German anti authoritary

983
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: and educational milieu did not distinguish between childhood and early

984
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: adult sexuality, but sought to flatten sexual distinctions within the

985
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: generations m HM. Now Wilhelm Reich is the guy who

986
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: coined the term sexual revolution um. And so there's a

987
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: lot going on here. It seems like what you've got

988
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: is this very well meaning movement that comes out as

989
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 1: a as an understandable reaction to the horrible crimes of

990
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,919
Speaker 1: the Nazi era. But you also have all these people

991
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 1: who just want to fund kids and see this as

992
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 1: an opportunity like, well, I can slide a little bit

993
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: of my ideology in here, these are the things I believe,

994
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 1: and I can cloak it as something more than just

995
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 1: me being horny for little kids. Right, I'm changing I'm

996
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 1: changing attitudes. I'm saving a future generation of Germans so

997
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: that you know, nothing terrible happens. Well, also completely taking

998
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: advantage of that sentiment for yeah, so um yeah. And

999
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: I don't want to say, like the whole kinder lat

1000
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 1: movement was not about child molestation. There were actually a

1001
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 1: lot of very important developments and educational and child rearing

1002
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 1: policy that can be traced back to it. But you

1003
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: also had a funkload of pedophiles with inrovement who used

1004
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 1: the opening up of society is a chance to pray

1005
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 1: on little kids. Quote. Within the circles of these movements,

1006
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 1: the alternative milieu and the advansipatory sexology of the nineteen seventies,

1007
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 1: Texan documents on child sexuality lacked perspective that reinforced a

1008
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:34,280
Speaker 1: child's right and ability to say no to sexual contact conduct.

1009
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:40,879
Speaker 1: So this is part of how Yeah, so these these

1010
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 1: these teachers who are trying to basically stick uh and

1011
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: thinkers who were trying to basically like mainstream child molestation

1012
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: by hijacking the kinder lad movement. They're noting the importance

1013
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: of emancipating children's sexuality, but they're not writing anything about

1014
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: the importance of consent. That doesn't The assumption then is

1015
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: that kids want this kind end of contact that way,

1016
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 1: and people like went with that because I mean, like

1017
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: if you're a really a whole lot of them, did, man,

1018
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 1: I mean, disobedience is purely built on agency. That's because

1019
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: this isn't this isn't a real like, this chunk of

1020
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: the movement isn't real. There's no ideology. Sure, but I

1021
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 1: guess like even if you were hearing this out loud

1022
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:21,800
Speaker 1: and you're like, this is fucking terrible, can I like

1023
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,359
Speaker 1: limb because if if they had to explain themselves, they're like, Okay,

1024
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: I got caught. You know, it's this matter of it's

1025
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:32,280
Speaker 1: this matter of Once the weight of cultural forces behind change,

1026
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,800
Speaker 1: most people are are cowards, you know, whether that cultural

1027
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: change is like the switch to Nazism or the switch

1028
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 1: to childhood sexual liberation. An awful lot of people are

1029
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 1: just going to kind of go along with it if

1030
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 1: it seems like what everyone else is doing. That's that's

1031
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 1: what is happening here. Now, this is all very complicated

1032
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: to talk about, especially since some of what happened in

1033
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: the Kindred Laton movement has its roots in the struggle

1034
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,800
Speaker 1: for gay rights. See in the sixties and seventies in Germany,

1035
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 1: the age of consent for heterosexual sex was eighteen, but

1036
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 1: the age of consent for homosexual male sex was twenty one,

1037
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,720
Speaker 1: which is obviously unjust. Um So there was a campaign

1038
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 1: to lower the age of consent for homosexual male sex

1039
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: down to eighteen. And there's nothing wrong with that, obviously.

1040
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,360
Speaker 1: If you're gonna have the age of consent be eighteen,

1041
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 1: it should be eighteen for everybody. Nobody's I don't think

1042
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 1: anybody's gonna have a problem with that, But you can

1043
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 1: see how the general air of discussion around a lot

1044
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 1: of the left at that time would have been focused

1045
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 1: on lowering age of consents and how that brought cover

1046
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 1: to people who wanted the age of consent to be

1047
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,320
Speaker 1: way lower than so just like the same way you

1048
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 1: have white supremacists like sort of taking advantage of this

1049
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 1: disruption in the economy and people giving like sort of

1050
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,760
Speaker 1: these straw man arguments about well, it's this other group,

1051
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,359
Speaker 1: and then people would darker purposes go yeah, yeah, right

1052
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 1: right right, also white people. It's it's like white supremacists

1053
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: seeing that like everyone's talking about uh, you know, nationalized

1054
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 1: healthcare and are like, yeah, we do need more socialism,

1055
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 1: but it's got to be a socialism that ex ludes

1056
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: people who aren't part of the racial community, like a

1057
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 1: national sort of social tim like yeah, this happens in

1058
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,720
Speaker 1: every sphere of life where this is. Or their different

1059
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: laws for gay sex between women, I've noticed how you

1060
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 1: made that distinction. They I don't think they really thought

1061
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: about it, of course, Like like that's one of those

1062
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: things like sometimes it was kind of easier to be

1063
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: a gay woman than a gay man, just because nobody

1064
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: really thought about it as much. It was like wasn't

1065
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 1: even discussed like really to the like like it was

1066
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 1: taboo really to talk about gay mail sex. And I

1067
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:34,919
Speaker 1: think sometimes gay women kind of slid under the radar

1068
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: because people just assumed it didn't exist. One of the

1069
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: unintended benefits of toxic patriarchy. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, again,

1070
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 1: this is all very complicated to talk about. I I

1071
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit wrong about what I'm saying about, like, uh,

1072
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: you know, lesbian sex and this only read into so

1073
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: much here. Well, yeah, it was weird. Even the government

1074
00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, there was a distinction to even codify that. Yeah. Now,

1075
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 1: I found a very good article about all this on

1076
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 1: Der Spiegel called the Sexual Revolution in Children How the

1077
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: Left went too far um and it points out that

1078
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: Klaus Reiner Wool, the publisher of a popular leftist magazine

1079
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 1: at the time in Germany, wrote open calls for sex

1080
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: with miners while molesting his own daughters. It also goes

1081
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: into horrific detail about how some experiments and communal living

1082
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 1: during this period went very very badly. Quote, in the

1083
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: summer of nineteen sixty seven, three women and four men

1084
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 1: moved into an apartment and an old building on who

1085
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 1: Gee brek Strasa together with two small children, a three

1086
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 1: year old girl, Grisha and a four year old boy Nessim.

1087
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 1: For the residents, the cohabitation experiment was an attempt to

1088
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 1: overcome all bourgeoisie constraints, which included everything from separate bank

1089
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 1: accounts and closed bathroom doors to fidelity within couples and

1090
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 1: the development of feelings of shame. The two children were

1091
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 1: raised by the group, which often meant that no one

1092
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: paid much attention to them. Because the adults had made

1093
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: it their goal to not just tolerate, but in fact

1094
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: a firm child sexuality, they were not satisfied to simply

1095
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 1: act as passive observer. Now the article goes on into

1096
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 1: some uncomfortable to tail about what happened with that, and

1097
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:07,439
Speaker 1: I'm not going to quote the stuff about the sex

1098
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:12,720
Speaker 1: acts that followed because it's gross. Um. But there's this

1099
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: there's this complicated era where you have like, you know,

1100
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 1: kids are going to experiment and like grab things, right um.

1101
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 1: And because everyone's going around newd all the time, kids

1102
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 1: will grab adults, and adults will feel that it's like

1103
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 1: counter revolutionary basically to stop this, and so some of

1104
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 1: the molestation happens that way too, But it's very, very

1105
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: complicated and weird what goes on in German kind of

1106
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: leftist revolutionary circles at this time. And this was yet

1107
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 1: just sort of again to push back against all these

1108
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 1: social constructs and say, what if we take all take

1109
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 1: them all down and there are no rules to the

1110
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 1: point that we're veering into like just the darkest kind

1111
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 1: of ship. That's exactly what happens. And you know, there

1112
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 1: was a stigma against me king a fuss about it

1113
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: if you thought what was going on was unhealthy, because

1114
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: doing so would would make you seem counter revolutionary. Um,

1115
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 1: one trude, you're being exactly yeah, One teacher later called quote.

1116
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 1: I found it incredibly difficult to take a stance. I

1117
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 1: felt that what we were trying to do was fundamentally correct,

1118
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 1: but when it came to this issue fucking kids, I

1119
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: thought this is crazy, It just isn't right. But then

1120
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 1: I felt ashamed of thinking that way. I think many

1121
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: were in the same position, and you can see you

1122
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: you stick that same reasoning to people who kind of

1123
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 1: went along with the Nazi re shames crimes, and I'm

1124
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 1: sure it speaks for millions of Germans in that period. Um, so, yeah,

1125
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: it's really ironic to me that a movement that started

1126
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 1: as an anti authoritarian response to fascism ended with people

1127
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: sitting by and watching other kinds of horrific crimes occur

1128
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 1: because they were still too scared to go. There's a

1129
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 1: lot of lessons about human nature in here, and none

1130
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 1: of them are positive. Yeah, seriously, Yeah, it's yeah. The

1131
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 1: the x us as of the kinder Lattan movement are

1132
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 1: i think, like evidence of how deeply toxic group think

1133
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: can be, regardless of what side it comes from, and

1134
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 1: how vulnerable times of social change and exploration are to

1135
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 1: the whims of hidden predators. You know, it's any time,

1136
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 1: you know, like now we're changes in the air, you

1137
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 1: have to be very fucking careful because changes always is

1138
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 1: especially necessary and society as unhealthy as our own, but

1139
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:26,919
Speaker 1: it also provides cover to the worst kinds of human beings.

1140
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 1: And also like the sort of naivety to think you

1141
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 1: could completely just one eighty like an entire nation's culture

1142
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 1: within a generation, and absurd like it's centuries and centuries

1143
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 1: of norms and traditions that give you that, and to

1144
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 1: be like, well, all right, if we do this and

1145
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 1: kids just like we make them all rebellious and like,

1146
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 1: you know, our kids just need to be more punk rock,

1147
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 1: Like that's not the solution, and to think that again,

1148
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 1: but I think also it was also that wasn't really

1149
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 1: the point for lot of people. The point was to

1150
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 1: create this environment in which this kind of behavior could

1151
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 1: be seen as like not necessarily because it's in the

1152
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 1: name of revolution and evolution. And this is where the

1153
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: episode gets more confusing again because if you you know,

1154
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 1: it makes sense if you look at it the way

1155
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: that like it's started to look right now, which is

1156
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 1: that like, okay, l sixties, early seventies, you have this

1157
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 1: movement in Germany for educational reform in a new way

1158
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 1: of looking at like how children are raised, and child

1159
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 1: molesters used this as cover to to to you know,

1160
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:36,919
Speaker 1: essentially abuse kids. Um and this guy, Gerald Becker, winds

1161
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 1: up in charge of the Old and Alge School, influenced

1162
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: by these ideas in and inculcates a culture of child

1163
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 1: ripe within the school. Right makes a lot of sense,

1164
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 1: goes inline with German historical trends at the time, except

1165
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 1: for one problem. Gerald Becker and the sexual revolution of

1166
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies is not when the Old Involge

1167
01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 1: School started becoming a haven for child rape. It started

1168
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 1: it with the person we started talking about at the

1169
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 1: beginning of this episode, Paul Geheb. For a very long time,

1170
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 1: Paul was viewed as something as a hero, both within

1171
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: the field of education and within Germany. Albert Einstein called

1172
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 1: him one of the few upright men who maintained the

1173
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 1: honor of Germany during the horrible Nazi era. The school

1174
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 1: he established in Switzerland during a war became a haven

1175
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 1: for child refugees and orphansive Nazism's mad dashed through Europe.

1176
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 1: But Paul was not the man he seemed to be,

1177
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 1: and the Old Vald School's history of child abuse went

1178
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 1: back much further than the late sixties. In fact, it

1179
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 1: goes all the way to the beginning. None of this

1180
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 1: came into light until late in two thousand ten, when

1181
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 1: Der Spiegel conducted a deep investigation into the school. Now

1182
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,919
Speaker 1: by this point, other investigators had revealed the sweeping history

1183
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:47,560
Speaker 1: of sexual assault from the sixties up until the early nineties.

1184
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 1: At least Adrian Kerfort, the chairman of a group formed

1185
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 1: by children molested by Old Vold teachers estimated at this

1186
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 1: point that between five hundred and nine hundred children had

1187
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 1: been victimized, but most people still believed that Paul Geheb

1188
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:02,640
Speaker 1: and his beloved legacy as a reformer were clean. All

1189
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:04,960
Speaker 1: of that was blasted away by the investigation of an

1190
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 1: educationalist named Christie Stark. Stark basically gains access to the

1191
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 1: archives at the old involved school and starts like reading

1192
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 1: through all of these letters that had been sent from parents,

1193
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 1: to teachers and from to school administrators, starting from the

1194
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 1: very beginning of the school, and a lot of what

1195
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 1: she finds is deeply fucked up. Uh And I'm gonna

1196
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote from that, dear Schpiegle right up. On

1197
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 1: September four, a mother wrote to Gaheb's wife, Edith, who

1198
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 1: had built up to school with him. This mother, e

1199
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 1: m described in detail her twelve year old sons allegations

1200
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 1: that he had been abused by a teacher. It wasn't

1201
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: the first such claim. Three weeks earlier, a father had

1202
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:43,680
Speaker 1: taken his daughter out of the school on the grounds

1203
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 1: that she had been very disturbed by the nocturnal visits

1204
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 1: by adults that she had witnessed educationalist Crystal Stark says

1205
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: that the school received a number of such letters from concerned,

1206
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 1: shocked parents over the years, with some pointing the finger

1207
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 1: at older pupils and others at the teachers. So, after

1208
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: hundreds of hours of pains making research, Stark writes a

1209
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 1: dissertation on all this. Now. Prior to her research, the

1210
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 1: understanding was that most of the children who had been

1211
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 1: abused at Oldenvald were boys, but she found vastly more

1212
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 1: complaints from parents about suspected or confirmed sexual relations with

1213
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 1: between their daughters and school staff. Some of these parents

1214
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 1: presented love letters that their daughters had received from teachers

1215
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 1: during summer vacation, and shockingly, these early nine parents were

1216
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:25,640
Speaker 1: generally too scared to a complain, which is probably why

1217
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 1: the behavior flew under the radar. One mother even promised

1218
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 1: the school directly that she had no intent of causing

1219
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:33,919
Speaker 1: a scandal that would put the school in an unfavorable light.

1220
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 1: Even in the days of Gheb, the Oldenvald School's reputation

1221
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 1: as a bastion of bold experimentation and scholarship protected it

1222
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 1: from harm. So now I'm gonna quote again from that

1223
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 1: dear Spiegel article on February nineteen thirty one, he wrote

1224
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 1: to a female pupil who had asked for his help.

1225
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:52,880
Speaker 1: He had sent the seventeen year old girl to a

1226
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:54,760
Speaker 1: friend of his in London, a fellow teacher who was

1227
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 1: supposed to improve her English, but whom she said molested her.

1228
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 1: Geh Heeb defended his colleague vehemently. He bravely treads new

1229
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: ground in the realm of sexuality in particular, and it's

1230
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: discovered new successful methods that are of course extremely infuriating

1231
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 1: for a high society. And it's hypocritical sexual morality. So

1232
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 1: this is how, this is how he argues to an

1233
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,680
Speaker 1: abused child. Yeah that she wasn't in fact abused now

1234
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 1: he uh. I just like also, I mean, I I

1235
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 1: get it because history moves at a very its own pace,

1236
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 1: and especially things from this era. We don't have the

1237
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 1: same speed at which information travels. But it's wild that

1238
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 1: it's like they're like, oh yeah, back in like this

1239
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:42,040
Speaker 1: has been going on for a century. Yeah yeah. So

1240
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 1: when that girl you know wrote him this article complaining

1241
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 1: about being molested, heb advised her not to make a fuss, uh,

1242
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 1: and he wrote, it's natural that stupid little girls immediately

1243
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 1: feel sexually threatened, call him a pig, and maybe even

1244
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 1: call for the police to get involved. She's she's dumb

1245
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 1: for yeah now. And this happens all the time with women,

1246
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 1: you guys know, you know, you've seen it a hundred times.

1247
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 1: It's like the sentiment of it all the Also, like

1248
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:10,880
Speaker 1: the shame part two is like very interesting because I know,

1249
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 1: you know, with the Germans and the Japanese, uh, you know,

1250
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 1: forming the axis back then in World War Two, like

1251
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 1: the sort of similarities in culture to like, you know,

1252
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:24,120
Speaker 1: even in Japanese culture, you wouldn't you would maybe be

1253
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 1: a little hesitant to call something out, not necessarily to

1254
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 1: this scale, but in general because you don't want to

1255
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 1: be seen as the person who's trying to disrupt something

1256
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 1: or malign a group or something like that. And it's

1257
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 1: a very powerful force to just sort of maintain the

1258
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,760
Speaker 1: status quo because you know, obviously Americans too, it were

1259
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 1: on the difference on the other side of the spectrum

1260
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 1: to aggressively probably probably toxic degree where it's like we'll

1261
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:51,120
Speaker 1: fucking scream about everything and anything, and sometimes about ship

1262
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: that really isn't even bad, just because we want to

1263
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 1: be able to scream about something. But when you see

1264
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 1: even this, like this mother was like, I'm looking at

1265
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:01,120
Speaker 1: the evidence in front of me, Yet the thing that

1266
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:05,200
Speaker 1: is preventing me isn't that I don't I'm not. Uh,

1267
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 1: it's not that I'm mistaking what is actually happening here objectively,

1268
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:11,360
Speaker 1: It's that I don't want to be seen as a

1269
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 1: bolt rocker. Yeah. And it it gets even more fucked

1270
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:17,680
Speaker 1: up than that because you know, we talked a lot

1271
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:19,840
Speaker 1: about what Paul did during the Nazi era and how

1272
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:22,800
Speaker 1: like he resisted the Nazis and he you know, his

1273
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:26,960
Speaker 1: his school helped protect kids, and that's all true, but

1274
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:31,600
Speaker 1: the Nazi era also provided Paul with a shield for

1275
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,200
Speaker 1: a lot of his abuse. So that girl who got

1276
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:37,360
Speaker 1: molested that he wrote this letter to her father was

1277
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:39,720
Speaker 1: a lawyer and he pulled her out of school, but

1278
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:43,040
Speaker 1: he didn't feel comfortable suing or pressing charges because he

1279
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 1: was a Jewish person and his daughter was also jew. Yeah.

1280
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:52,120
Speaker 1: So this suggests that Paul Geheb, who bravely stood up

1281
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 1: to the Nazis, may have purposefully reached out so like

1282
01:08:55,280 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 1: this this Jewish lawyer, he's not a wealthy lawyer, um,

1283
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 1: and his daughter was only able to afford membership in

1284
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 1: the Old Old School because Paul Geheb had authored her

1285
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:09,680
Speaker 1: a scholarship, which suggests perhaps that Paul Geheb may have

1286
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 1: purposefully reached out to members of vulnerable groups in order

1287
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 1: to extend scholarships, knowing that their marginalization would make them

1288
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:18,400
Speaker 1: less likely to retaliate against him in the school. It's

1289
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 1: like classic predator behavior. I mean, if nobody's gonna listen

1290
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:25,240
Speaker 1: to this Jew talk about our it's like and also

1291
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:27,960
Speaker 1: the government doesn't care about them, so they're a low poward.

1292
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:30,280
Speaker 1: It's the same thing like with the amount of sexual

1293
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 1: abusers that will teach on reservations too, and because of

1294
01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:36,320
Speaker 1: like tribal laws are like well I can just sunk

1295
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 1: off the rez and then it's a different system of

1296
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 1: law and I can skirt it and continue to prey

1297
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 1: upon vulnerable groups. M It's like, I mean, it doesn't

1298
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 1: it's not that it's it's just I was gonna say

1299
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:53,600
Speaker 1: it's it's not fascinating because it's so dark, but to

1300
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 1: under to know that it's the exact same process that

1301
01:09:57,320 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 1: goes into it. Whether it's like if they're priests who

1302
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 1: we're going after, children who may be like, uh, like

1303
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:08,160
Speaker 1: hearing impaired or deaf or like whatever, because they know

1304
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 1: those children speak less to their parents and are less

1305
01:10:11,280 --> 01:10:13,519
Speaker 1: likely to talk to their parents about what happens. Because

1306
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:16,080
Speaker 1: of that, they're targeted. And now to see in this one,

1307
01:10:16,160 --> 01:10:19,240
Speaker 1: he's taking advantage of the anti semitism of the time

1308
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 1: to also find additional cover two in this What do

1309
01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 1: you think that was as intentional as it was or

1310
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:28,519
Speaker 1: this is an example or was he also maybe like

1311
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:32,120
Speaker 1: giving scholarships to students who were from those groups too,

1312
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:34,559
Speaker 1: like they're like, yeah, you may be marginalized, but also

1313
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:37,880
Speaker 1: you can come to this school for free or whatever. Well,

1314
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:40,680
Speaker 1: I think he was doing that, and I think it

1315
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 1: made it look like it was a very progressive school

1316
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:45,720
Speaker 1: and he was protecting these kids. But I also think

1317
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:49,720
Speaker 1: he took advantage of that status yea, of the fact

1318
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 1: that they had less protections. Yeah. Now, klass Man is

1319
01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 1: probably the most internationally renowned alumni of the Owen Volt School.

1320
01:10:57,800 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 1: Thomas Man's kid and dear Spegel reporting suggests that he

1321
01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:05,280
Speaker 1: too was a victim of Paul Gaeheed. Man published a

1322
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:07,719
Speaker 1: book called The Old Man, which is a story about

1323
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,599
Speaker 1: a school principle who praised on young girls at his school.

1324
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 1: In the book, he wrote this, after dinner, the principle

1325
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:16,599
Speaker 1: lies down on a sofa and listens to the sounds

1326
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:18,920
Speaker 1: of playing and singing children. A girl comes in, the

1327
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:22,040
Speaker 1: principle speaks to and then becomes intimate with her. Mom wrote,

1328
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 1: he began stroking the girl. He even laid his head,

1329
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:27,160
Speaker 1: his white, unimaginably old head with its fond mouth, into

1330
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 1: her lap. The text goes onto report about urgent, greedy

1331
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:32,360
Speaker 1: caresses and of another girl whom, looking her straight in

1332
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 1: the eye, he threw himself at and kissed. Now. This

1333
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 1: is argued by Der Spiegel as a portrait of Paul

1334
01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 1: Gaheed basically like Klaus Moan saw this legendary reformer molesting

1335
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:48,160
Speaker 1: girls at school and couldn't say anything directly about it,

1336
01:11:48,240 --> 01:11:50,600
Speaker 1: but put it in one of his books after he

1337
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 1: got out of the school. He was a famous writer. Yeah. Um.

1338
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:59,200
Speaker 1: And in fact, when the book was published, Gheheed complained

1339
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:01,639
Speaker 1: to Thomas Man because he believed that the story would

1340
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:05,559
Speaker 1: inflict damage on the old involved school. Um. So that's

1341
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: yeah now. The document Start poured through included a nineteen

1342
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:12,360
Speaker 1: eighteen letter written to Paul Geheed by one of his

1343
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:15,439
Speaker 1: young students. The author writes that she depended on him

1344
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 1: and had a right to a ring, perhaps due to

1345
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:20,439
Speaker 1: all that had happened. She felt that this would make

1346
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 1: her safe, or at least safer. Now, the wording of

1347
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:25,160
Speaker 1: this letter from a student to Paul Geheb doesn't make

1348
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 1: it entirely clear what happens, but it sounds like Paul

1349
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:31,600
Speaker 1: got a teenager pregnant. Like that's what this letter sounds like.

1350
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:34,040
Speaker 1: You've got this like young girl writing to this teacher

1351
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 1: saying that like she depends on him and she should

1352
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 1: give her a ring because of what he did to her, Like, yeah,

1353
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:43,160
Speaker 1: maybe made her get an abortion? An abortion. It's very

1354
01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 1: hard to say. Yeah. Now, we do know that the

1355
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:49,800
Speaker 1: school's tenth anniversary celebration in nineteen twenty was canceled because

1356
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:53,000
Speaker 1: a female teacher committed suicide. We now know that this

1357
01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:55,479
Speaker 1: woman had a relationship with Geheb as well, and it's

1358
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:59,200
Speaker 1: unclear what drove her to suicide, but I think it's

1359
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:01,960
Speaker 1: we can safely assume it was something very shady um

1360
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:04,880
Speaker 1: and probably had to do with all of this and suicide.

1361
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 1: I don't know that now I've got my wasn't suicide? Yeah,

1362
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 1: exactly hard to say. In nineteen thirty, at the school's

1363
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:14,960
Speaker 1: twentieth anniversary, Paul had some of the girls students pose

1364
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:17,519
Speaker 1: naked for a photographer. He was then given an album

1365
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:22,120
Speaker 1: of the photos, which biographer Martin Knoff described in two

1366
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 1: thousand and six as particularly risk a semi ironic, semi serious,

1367
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:30,599
Speaker 1: and unthinkable in the present day. Um so naff who again,

1368
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:33,160
Speaker 1: like Paul's this educational titans this, this is a very

1369
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:36,640
Speaker 1: positive biography, and nobody at the time until thou and

1370
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:40,479
Speaker 1: six expects this is evidence that paula was molesting anybody.

1371
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 1: But within the context of this additional evidence like oh yeah,

1372
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:47,560
Speaker 1: of course he made himself a porn calendar of his students.

1373
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:55,360
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I think. I mean, wow, you're really a

1374
01:13:55,400 --> 01:14:02,280
Speaker 1: little bastard. Yeah yeah, I might with him. I'm just

1375
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:06,600
Speaker 1: like gobsmacked at how out in the open it was.

1376
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:10,639
Speaker 1: But it just sort of taking advantage of the perfect

1377
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:14,759
Speaker 1: societal climate where it gave enough cover to do something

1378
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:18,080
Speaker 1: so overt, and also just sort of where we were

1379
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:21,640
Speaker 1: as a as a world global culture of like how

1380
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:27,320
Speaker 1: we viewed these things. And it's just I on some level,

1381
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:30,840
Speaker 1: were there also people who were in positions of power

1382
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:33,599
Speaker 1: wrapped up in this or it was purely based off

1383
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:37,680
Speaker 1: of this sort of like intellectual appeal or the way

1384
01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:39,720
Speaker 1: he was spinning it that was giving him this cover.

1385
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:42,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's both. You know, you have a lot

1386
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:44,320
Speaker 1: of famous alumni from the school, a lot of rich

1387
01:14:44,400 --> 01:14:48,160
Speaker 1: and powerful people send their kids there. Um. It's it's

1388
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:50,679
Speaker 1: viewed with a lot of prestige. You know, it's respected

1389
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:52,720
Speaker 1: enough that the Nazis aren't willing to shut it down.

1390
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:54,599
Speaker 1: They just want to like take control of it because

1391
01:14:54,640 --> 01:15:00,200
Speaker 1: it's this internationally recognized institution. Um. And it's it's hum.

1392
01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:03,120
Speaker 1: I think it's it's clear now that the Old Invulged

1393
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:05,960
Speaker 1: School was from the beginning it's more of a palace

1394
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:09,160
Speaker 1: to sexual abuse than an institution of learning. Um. And

1395
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:10,880
Speaker 1: it's one of those things you read at the top

1396
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:12,800
Speaker 1: of this all of these famous attributes about how the

1397
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:15,599
Speaker 1: school was organized, the division of children and students into families,

1398
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:19,280
Speaker 1: the rural location of the of the of the campus,

1399
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:22,479
Speaker 1: the focus on the equality of children and adults, and

1400
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:24,680
Speaker 1: like at the start of the story, before you know

1401
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:29,240
Speaker 1: any of this, that seems like a really high minded rhetoric. Um.

1402
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:32,799
Speaker 1: And once you have all of the context, it seems

1403
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:35,519
Speaker 1: like a perfect way to construct a society in which

1404
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:40,360
Speaker 1: you can abuse children incredibly effectively. Um and in retrospect,

1405
01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:44,759
Speaker 1: the signs are all over the school. Dr Henry Cassier,

1406
01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:47,799
Speaker 1: Gheb's nephew and a student at the Old Invulged School,

1407
01:15:48,439 --> 01:15:51,599
Speaker 1: wrote a praiseful article about Paul and his educational methods

1408
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:54,760
Speaker 1: and the Unesco Courier in the early nineteen sixties, and

1409
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:57,000
Speaker 1: it includes a quote that I think is really telling.

1410
01:15:57,120 --> 01:15:59,800
Speaker 1: And I don't know if Cassier was an abuser or

1411
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:01,880
Speaker 1: an abuse victim. He went to the school. He very

1412
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:03,720
Speaker 1: well may have been abused. He very well may have

1413
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:07,080
Speaker 1: been both. It's hard to say, but this quote is

1414
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:10,799
Speaker 1: really telling him me. Among his friends, Paulus Paul gehebe

1415
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:15,520
Speaker 1: counted men like Romain Rowland, Gandhi teg Are, Albert Schweitzer, Einstein,

1416
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:17,640
Speaker 1: men who put their stamp on the age. What did

1417
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:19,519
Speaker 1: all these men have in common? To answer, in the

1418
01:16:19,560 --> 01:16:22,840
Speaker 1: words of Tagore, they were all travelers whose eternal journey

1419
01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:26,760
Speaker 1: is towards the future. Climbing barriers, crossing mountains through the

1420
01:16:26,840 --> 01:16:29,960
Speaker 1: gaping century. They strode out into the unknown, into the unseen,

1421
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:34,000
Speaker 1: and their blood the trumpets sounded beyond all borders, go beyond.

1422
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Yeah, yeah, so is that I mean,

1423
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:44,160
Speaker 1: were these people hanging around each other to a lot?

1424
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:48,599
Speaker 1: Oh yeah? So is this like, you know, I guess

1425
01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:54,280
Speaker 1: the O G. Epstein kind of circle of influential person

1426
01:16:54,880 --> 01:16:57,200
Speaker 1: who I mean, is there a dimension of this where

1427
01:16:57,240 --> 01:17:00,880
Speaker 1: he may have been trafficking to or or people knew

1428
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 1: like if you hang around paulas there's you know, a

1429
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:07,400
Speaker 1: chance that there are going to be children around Paulice

1430
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:11,439
Speaker 1: is kind of an Epstein like figure. Um, he's this

1431
01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:16,920
Speaker 1: guy who we there's definitely allegations that later on, you

1432
01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:19,280
Speaker 1: know that like Becker and people who are in the

1433
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:22,560
Speaker 1: school later on pimped out kids. And I think it

1434
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:25,200
Speaker 1: would be foolish to assume that Paul wasn't doing the

1435
01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:29,080
Speaker 1: same thing. Um, And I think you have to look

1436
01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:34,280
Speaker 1: at his association with guys like Einstein and wonder the fuck? Yeah, right,

1437
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:37,280
Speaker 1: what did you get up to? It seemed like all

1438
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:39,400
Speaker 1: those people right would see themselves in the work that

1439
01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:41,920
Speaker 1: they're doing is so massively important. Right, And even as

1440
01:17:41,960 --> 01:17:46,759
Speaker 1: that quote was like going beyond barriers, going past whatever,

1441
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 1: going past what is legal in the name of exploration,

1442
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:53,680
Speaker 1: or this like and I'm it's in service of my

1443
01:17:53,840 --> 01:18:00,240
Speaker 1: genius or something. Yeah. Yeah, man, it's really complicated, it's

1444
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:03,120
Speaker 1: really a messy, and like, you know, it makes me

1445
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:05,400
Speaker 1: think back to like how we now know that um,

1446
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:12,559
Speaker 1: what's his name? Um? Uh, Stephen Hawking and Bill Gates too,

1447
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:15,479
Speaker 1: But Stephen Hawking was when visited Epstein's and like was

1448
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 1: on his plane and so yes it was Bill Gates.

1449
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:20,559
Speaker 1: You've got all these all these people who are are

1450
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:23,600
Speaker 1: treated in society as mental titans, many of them with

1451
01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:28,479
Speaker 1: solid justification to be treated that way. Um, but also

1452
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:33,599
Speaker 1: this this intense need to kind of elevate themselves above society. Um.

1453
01:18:34,160 --> 01:18:37,800
Speaker 1: And you know that's not always a bad thing, because

1454
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:41,120
Speaker 1: society is fucked up, but I think it leads some

1455
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:44,920
Speaker 1: people to justify things that are horrific because it's just

1456
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:48,719
Speaker 1: the thing that they happen to want. Um. And yeah,

1457
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:51,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, like the fact that Einstein comes into

1458
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:54,479
Speaker 1: the story obliquely. I've heard no allegations that he was

1459
01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:57,120
Speaker 1: ever did anything. But also like how would we have

1460
01:18:57,200 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 1: known all Betty's Yeah, well I'm sure too. Even then,

1461
01:19:01,040 --> 01:19:05,080
Speaker 1: like for someone like Einstein, whose name even rings even

1462
01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:10,479
Speaker 1: louder than gehbs, Like there must have been even more pressure, Like, dude,

1463
01:19:10,479 --> 01:19:13,920
Speaker 1: I'm not about to say something about Albert Einstein or whatever.

1464
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:16,720
Speaker 1: And I guess that is that thing, right at a

1465
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:20,080
Speaker 1: certain level, maybe just having the world. No, you might

1466
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:23,320
Speaker 1: be the smartest person or the greatest this or the wealthiest,

1467
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:27,160
Speaker 1: that just isn't enough that you have to go No,

1468
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:31,200
Speaker 1: I need to further demonstrate my superiority by saying that

1469
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:34,960
Speaker 1: norms and the laws of mortals just do not apply

1470
01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 1: to me at all, because I'm in this position too.

1471
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:41,120
Speaker 1: Like if that's sort of further is that because at

1472
01:19:41,120 --> 01:19:43,400
Speaker 1: a certain point, if your ego is wrapped up in

1473
01:19:43,479 --> 01:19:46,120
Speaker 1: your sense of self of being the sort of deity,

1474
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:49,639
Speaker 1: then yeah, like why would you even ever think you could?

1475
01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:52,960
Speaker 1: You need to abide by the rules for the normal

1476
01:19:53,920 --> 01:20:05,479
Speaker 1: the mortals. Ye oh b story, yeah yeah, yeah, thanks.

1477
01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:08,479
Speaker 1: This has made me want to start at school and

1478
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:13,920
Speaker 1: if anything, we just it's what to protect. No, you

1479
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:17,880
Speaker 1: have to protect the kids. You just you don't to

1480
01:20:17,960 --> 01:20:19,720
Speaker 1: stop all this from happening, You just build a big

1481
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:22,400
Speaker 1: walled compound and you put all the kids in there,

1482
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:25,800
Speaker 1: and then you shoot anyone who tries to enter. Mm

1483
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:31,920
Speaker 1: hmmmmmmmmmm it's like like like a prison but without doors.

1484
01:20:33,040 --> 01:20:37,960
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm mmm interesting. Yeah, you know, I'm looking forward

1485
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:41,160
Speaker 1: to your Ted talk. Mm hmm. It'll be interesting to

1486
01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:44,200
Speaker 1: say the least. Yeah, yeah, yes, my Ted talk unlocking

1487
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:46,759
Speaker 1: children in a cage to protect them from child molesters.

1488
01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:48,800
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, at this point people would be like,

1489
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:51,000
Speaker 1: I mean there was there was something about that talk.

1490
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:56,200
Speaker 1: I really got something from that. Um, I don't know

1491
01:20:56,280 --> 01:20:58,000
Speaker 1: where you how are you feeling at the end of this,

1492
01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:02,360
Speaker 1: Miles inspired. No, it's just like it's you know, this

1493
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:08,000
Speaker 1: has been the abuse of children and the weak is

1494
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:14,400
Speaker 1: a theme that will always echo into eternity in both directions,

1495
01:21:14,560 --> 01:21:16,840
Speaker 1: in the past and the future. And it's like, no

1496
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:21,240
Speaker 1: matter how far back you you go, or what or whatever,

1497
01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:25,400
Speaker 1: when you look at the details, the same types of

1498
01:21:25,880 --> 01:21:30,360
Speaker 1: people and personalities create these very similar outcomes. It's just

1499
01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:34,640
Speaker 1: that every fifty years it has a new version or

1500
01:21:34,720 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 1: a new way of it happening, or a new uh

1501
01:21:38,439 --> 01:21:41,400
Speaker 1: look and feel to it. Where this But like again,

1502
01:21:41,439 --> 01:21:43,240
Speaker 1: when when we talk about every time, it's like, oh,

1503
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:44,960
Speaker 1: it's like this, it's like this. It could be about

1504
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 1: Jerry Sandusky, it could be about Paul Nasser, it could

1505
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:51,599
Speaker 1: be about uh, Jeffrey Epstein, it's like that and anything.

1506
01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:55,400
Speaker 1: It's just the same thing over and over. And I think,

1507
01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:57,960
Speaker 1: I guess the benefit is, like, the more we're able

1508
01:21:58,000 --> 01:22:01,320
Speaker 1: to look at these things like this and be see

1509
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:04,720
Speaker 1: these patterns objectively in these sort of tactics, is you know,

1510
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:08,200
Speaker 1: the way we can someone somewhat maybe trying to you know,

1511
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:12,120
Speaker 1: reduce the incidences. But and I think it's important to

1512
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:14,840
Speaker 1: see this within the context of both like the left

1513
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:16,439
Speaker 1: and the right, or I guess it might be more

1514
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:19,080
Speaker 1: useful to be what as conservative versus progressive, and a

1515
01:22:19,160 --> 01:22:24,680
Speaker 1: conservative institution, a culture of child molestation or of just

1516
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:28,280
Speaker 1: abuse in general grows up among like, um, these ideas

1517
01:22:28,360 --> 01:22:31,880
Speaker 1: of entrenched authority and hierarchy, and in respect for like,

1518
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:33,960
Speaker 1: we don't want to like you don't want to shame

1519
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:36,640
Speaker 1: the church. You don't want to shame yourself because what

1520
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:39,240
Speaker 1: happened to you as a crime for you too, so

1521
01:22:39,479 --> 01:22:42,360
Speaker 1: like you know you'll be judged for doing it. Whereas

1522
01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:45,200
Speaker 1: kind of on the more progressive end of things, um,

1523
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:48,760
Speaker 1: it's no, no, no, we're we're liberating ourselves. This is

1524
01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:51,200
Speaker 1: a positive moment. And if you if you don't feel

1525
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:55,760
Speaker 1: comfortable with this, then your counter revolutionary, your bougie, you're

1526
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:58,880
Speaker 1: you're too conservative and you should be ashamed of that.

1527
01:22:59,160 --> 01:23:02,759
Speaker 1: But it's like so it's it's the structure is different

1528
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:05,640
Speaker 1: depending on sort of whether it's a progressive or a

1529
01:23:05,720 --> 01:23:09,519
Speaker 1: conservative movement that the abuse is hiding in, but they're

1530
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:15,320
Speaker 1: both equally uh prone to to to fostering predators, because

1531
01:23:15,439 --> 01:23:22,719
Speaker 1: that's how predators work, right A. Speaking of predators, Bastard's

1532
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:29,080
Speaker 1: mm hmm, you work. You're gonna plug your Twitter or something. Yeah,

1533
01:23:29,240 --> 01:23:32,640
Speaker 1: I'll plug my Twitter. I'll also plug my new podcast,

1534
01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:37,600
Speaker 1: uh with one of your listeners favorite guests, Sophia Alexandra

1535
01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:40,799
Speaker 1: Her and I have a new podcast called four twenty

1536
01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:43,680
Speaker 1: Day Fiance where we talk about the t l C

1537
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:50,479
Speaker 1: show ninety Day Fiance in in elevated way by where high.

1538
01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:54,000
Speaker 1: But that is the new show, and I employ your

1539
01:23:54,040 --> 01:23:58,479
Speaker 1: listeners if you like hearing us talk about much lighter topics. Uh,

1540
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:01,920
Speaker 1: that's a great show. Other than that, Twitter and Instagram,

1541
01:24:02,720 --> 01:24:07,040
Speaker 1: Miles of Gray and every day actually twice a day

1542
01:24:07,120 --> 01:24:14,400
Speaker 1: now on the daily Zeitgeist with Jack O'Brien. Well, talk

1543
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:19,880
Speaker 1: zeit Geist yourself up with Jack and Miles. Check out

1544
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:22,920
Speaker 1: the four into twenty day Fiance. Find us on the

1545
01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:26,280
Speaker 1: website Internet dot com at Behind the Bastards dot com

1546
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:30,080
Speaker 1: and on Twitter at at Bastards Pod. Also Instagram find

1547
01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:35,800
Speaker 1: me at I Right Okay, on Twitter and find uh.

1548
01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:39,000
Speaker 1: There's really no good joke to tie into this episode

1549
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:40,960
Speaker 1: about the mass rape of children, so I'm just going

1550
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:44,640
Speaker 1: to end the episode on that note. That's very responsible

1551
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:47,679
Speaker 1: of you. Thank you. Have a have a good day, everybody.

1552
01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:51,360
Speaker 1: I don't think too much about this stuff afterwards, but

1553
01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:52,360
Speaker 1: you will. Yeah,