WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Arthur's Seat Dolls 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.520 Hey guys, exciting news. I'm really really stoked about this. 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:08.040 On March seventh, at noon Pacific Standard time, Team Sideways 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:10.000 is going to host an a m A on the 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:16.520 Unresolved Mysteries subreddit on Reddit. Pretty exciting. Hell yeah, yeah, 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:18.800 So the mods will post an announcement a week prior, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.400 so if you can't join us at that time, at 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:25.360 that date, you can post your questions there. Um, please 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:29.920 don't email us questions will lose them and forget them. 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:32.760 Let's try and contain this just to Reddit. But we're 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:39.560 super excited and uh yeah, so if you can join us. Sorry, 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:41.960 just in case somebody you know, five years from now 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:44.760 I was listening to this episode, not two thousand seventeen. 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:52.600 This is not true yourself two thousand seventeen. Sorry, thinking Sideways. 0:00:53.760 --> 0:01:03.320 I don't under to say you never know stories of 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:09.800 things we simply don't know the answer to. Hey, guys, 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:14.760 what's up sinking side With the podcast? I'm Devin hosting 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:22.320 super Well, joined by my co hosts and Steve Yeah, 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:28.400 here's one for you. In eighteen thirty six, five boys 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:32.000 were hunting rabbits in the northeast area of Arthur c Edinburgh. 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:35.039 Pro tip if you are boys hunting and you find 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:39.199 something even remotely weird, just just walk away, just walk away. 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.280 The number of cases that we cover that start out 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:47.000 in this way is mind boggling to me. It's boys, 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.640 specifically young boys groups as young boys find something and 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:55.240 then think, oh, I know, let's go investigate that. Why why? 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:59.000 Because they're boys. The ten year old boy in me 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.240 come completely identifies with the boys in this story absolutely. 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:05.160 You know, if you if you have the potential to 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:07.440 kick off a really cool unsolved mystery, and then you 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:09.520 should should not turn your back on that as long 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:12.520 as it doesn't involve you getting killed. No, it's mostly 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.520 just playing with stuff, yeah, throwing stuff. I just think 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:19.160 we should start keeping a counter. These kids were kind 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.320 of jerks, but we'll get into that later. Yeah. So, okay, 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:30.560 the boys were hunting wabbits. Wabbits kill the wabbitibbit, kill 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.519 the labbit, and they came across the cave. Zwinks they 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:41.800 better check that out, so they did. Inside they found 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.480 seventeen small caskets and a pile. And by the way, 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:47.680 this wasn't really a cave. It was kind of like 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:49.799 kind of like a hole inside on the side of 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.680 the hillside. My story is so much better. Cave is cool. 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:55.160 Cave is cool. No, it was found a torch, an 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:57.080 old torch, and they lit the torch and they walked 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:58.919 into the cave. But it didn't really happen that way, 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:04.919 and it didn't happen that it kind of an alcove area. 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:08.680 Three pieces of slate covering. I don't know. There were 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:12.080 seventeen small caskets and a pile, eight on the bottom, 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.720 eight in the middle, and one on top. And upon 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:22.520 further investigation, guys so smart, they found that the caskets 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.440 contained a small wooden doll in each one, carved to 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:30.200 look like a human, clothed and small handmade garments. The 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:32.720 dolls were said to be about the size of an 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:37.760 adult finger, so three or four inches long. The doll, 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:40.480 not the cast. Yeah, the doll, okay, yeah, just making 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:47.360 sure being boys, dumb, stupid boys. Hey, Instead of running 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.160 to the police or the adult with this fine, they decided, oh, 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.520 you know, it would be awesome, Let's just throw all 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:56.120 these things at each other. This is the equivalent of 0:03:56.160 --> 0:04:00.320 a dirt wad fight. You find something and you throw 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:03.200 it at your friend to make them run. And screened 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:07.160 this is why the ten year old boy loves this story. Somebody. Yeah, 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:08.560 I mean it's like, you know, at that age, I 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.240 probably would have done the same thing. I would be 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:17.120 because of this. Only eight of these dolls remained. They 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.760 were destroyed. Most of them were destroyed. Yeah, and before 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:24.600 we go much further, this is the Arthur Seat murder dolls. 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:29.960 And it was listener suggestion about a million years ago 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:36.520 from Thomas all right, ready to keep going. Yeah, creeping 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:42.000 me out, kind of creepy boys throwing caskets and each 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:44.680 other creeps you out a little, tiny caskets. It gets 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:49.240 a little creepier, a little creepier maybe. Anyhow, it's not 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:54.000 clear how the eight remaining caskets that did make it 0:04:54.640 --> 0:05:00.000 made it back to civilization, well, in any kind of sense. 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.400 The boys were never questioned, they never gave any statements. 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:09.960 It's unclear if they told their school teacher or he 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:12.880 overheard them talking about how much fun it was that 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:15.800 they were throwing coffins at each other. Was it the 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:19.200 school teacher or their head master head I thought it 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.920 was the head master. Somebody involved in school, okay, who 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:26.880 happened to also be an amateur archaeologist. Because that's what 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:29.480 you did in those days, right, So he heard the 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.280 boys or the boys told him or something. Maybe one 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.120 of the boys had a black guy, and he was like, wow, 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:39.760 that happened. He was like this dude through and he 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:43.440 was like, okay, we'll tell me more. Either way, somehow 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:46.160 the dolls made it back. And again it's not clear 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:47.800 even if it was only the eight dolls or all 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:49.839 of the dolls or what happened, but only eight of 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.000 them really survived. Yeah, thanks have a way sort of 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.800 like disappearing. Yeah, let's talk about the dolls for a 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.800 seconds more. I guess a little more. We've talked about 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:03.240 them little bit already. There are some reports that there 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.640 are both male and female dolls, but I don't actually 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.320 think that's the case. I would agree with this, And 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.520 like I said, only eight of the dolls survived, but 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:14.599 none of them, as far as I can tell, were 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:18.880 dressed as women. And let's be fair, if you're going 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:21.440 to make tiny little doll clothes, it's way easier to 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:23.359 make a skirt than it is to make little trousers. 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:27.039 But they all had little trousers on the ones that 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:29.920 weren't decayed, didn't didn't They weren't where the trousers so 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:32.000 right with legs, because I mean these things didn't have 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:36.200 individual legs. They they did, did they had? Yeah? They had, 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.120 they had, and they had a pair of legs. They 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.960 weren't just like a stub that had some kind of 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:44.960 feature carved into them to give the appearance there were 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:49.799 two individual legs and little pants on them, little pants 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:53.359 on them. The dolls in the bottom coffin seemed to 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.080 have been older and more deteriorated. Some of the garments 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.520 were rotting away or totally rotted away, you can see 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.559 in some of the pictures this. The middle tier seemed 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:06.359 to have looked more recent, and the top one apparently 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:10.240 looked almost brand new. And again, in fairness, this is 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:14.600 I'm not it's not clear how this information was relayed. Yeah, 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.000 the kids probably upset the site quite a bit when 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:18.960 they pillaged it so they could throw stuff at each other. 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:26.480 So these were found in Arthur's Seats, which is in Edinburgh, 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.440 scott Scotland. Is that right? Yeah? Did you do any 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:33.960 research on that site by chance? Like pertaining to what? Well? 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:37.440 I just I pulled a Joe and I went Google mapping, 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.160 and then I started researching it. Did you know that 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:45.040 that's actually an old volcano, which is really cool. Yeah, 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.480 it's also only about two miles away from the ocean, 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.520 the North Sea, right, not the ocean. It's it's really weird, 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:55.280 raised out raised chunk of earth in the middle of 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:57.800 a town. So it's just it was really interesting to me, 0:07:57.880 --> 0:07:59.400 and that's why I was just asking. Yeah, it's a 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.320 pretty cool all spot. It's one of the only fully 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:06.880 green spots on Google in Edinburgh because the rest is 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:12.320 a town. Back to the dolls, there were two different 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:16.160 kinds of coffins, one carved more rounded, one a little 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.720 more square. The different kinds of coffins, however, don't seem 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:22.760 to have been exclusive by tier. They were all inter 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:26.320 mingled when and and this is I saw this in 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:28.400 the photos of people might not understand this when you 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:32.960 say rounded versus square. The square was really more just 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:37.560 a rectangle, just simple straight pieces of wood, and the 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:41.480 rounded it only looked like somebody had basically carved off 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.840 the corners to smooth it out a little bit. So 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.520 that was the only style difference I saw. That was 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.240 my impression too, Okay, not that some of them were 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:54.600 circles and some of them Yeah, that would be super weird. 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.079 It also seems that the dolls were not actually made 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.360 for this purpose. Men any of the dolls were missing 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:05.440 limbs arms. Specifically, they all had their legs, I think, 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.160 so that they would fit inside the coffins. And in fact, 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:11.760 it's a bit odd that the coffins weren't made to 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.000 the size of the dolls. That's one of the things 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:16.720 that sort of made me wonder too. Yeah, it doesn't 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:19.400 seem like maybe they were always meant to be together, 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:24.040 but the dolls do seem to have been from the 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:27.720 same set. They all seemed to be almost identical. The 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.520 theory is that they were a set of soldiers, toy soldiers. 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:34.120 There were markings around the feet that looked like they 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:38.120 had once been painted, like they were little booties, black booties. 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.120 Were they painted or were they blackened? I got the 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:44.400 impression that they were black and almost with soot or 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.719 a candle or something. It's a cheaper way to do it. 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.040 You just grab a chunk charcoal out of the fire, 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:50.960 you know. Well, yeah, I know, And this is why 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:56.040 I didn't. I didn't. I never saw anything said specifically. 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.040 Some said they were black and some said they were 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:02.080 black and that was my too, so I just said painted. 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.400 But you're probably right. It probably was something more like 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:06.560 charcoal or something like that, which wouldn't last as long, 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:12.360 but who cares. They were worried about that. The legs 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:16.360 were carved in a way that seemed to note kind 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:20.600 of a rigid, upward standing post, like standing at attention 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.560 if you're a toy soldier. Yeah, And in fact, upon 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.920 further inspection, it was discovered that they would stand straight 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:30.360 on their own if a small amount of weight was 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:34.839 added to the front of them, like a musket. The 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.680 arms that were missing would have held a musket. It 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:40.640 would have been on like a bandolier across their chest 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:46.079 or something tripod kind of like long across their chest, 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:49.280 just like hanging there. So it wasn't actually going to 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.439 touch the ground, Okay, I got I got the impression 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:56.679 that it was that you see soldiers, you know, let's yeah, 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.120 you know, holding their gun against the ground, so they 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.560 make a tripod. That wasn't my sense. It was that 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:07.120 they would have had something else lashed them. I will 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.280 believe you, because I'm not positive I didn't go as 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:15.439 far down in this one. Yeah, that's probably true. It 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.040 was like I said, they were probably toy soldiers, and 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:21.560 they probably had muskets or something like that, so they 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:25.160 would stand upright in that situation and quickly. I want 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:31.360 to address the rotting because the different It was initially 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:35.760 suggested that perhaps they were of three different ages, that 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.960 the bottom ones had been placed much earlier than the 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.440 middle ones, and the middle ones placed much earlier than 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:44.439 the top one, or that perhaps the top tier was 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.400 in a work in progress or whatever. But I do 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.240 want to just mention anybody who's ever had like a 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:56.439 woodpile may know that things rot from the bottom because 0:11:56.440 --> 0:12:00.400 that's where the moistures end. So those would have, even 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.400 if they've all been placed at the same time, would 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.079 have absolutely rotted much quicker and would have looked as 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:10.560 though they were much older than the middle and top ones. 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:15.079 Tears tears, will call them tears, Yeah, tears good, Yeah, yeah, 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.240 because you're gonna have fungus and bugs and just plain 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.440 water damage in general to that would yeah, it makes 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:25.600 total sense. Yeah. So, like I said, there was the 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.160 original thought that they had been placed at different times. 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.679 I don't think that's true. I think it was probably 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:35.520 at the same time, maybe a short period of time 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:39.000 but definitely no more than twelve years, which I guess 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.040 is kind of a long period of time that has 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.800 got a long period of time. Yeah, I mean, I 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:47.760 definitely if it was me doing this, I would have 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:49.800 done all at once, just to save myself a lot 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:54.000 of trips up the mountainside. Yeah. Well, but that's that's 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:59.640 inferring that if somebody's putting their these in that location 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:04.320 for specific reason, that it's one reason and not a 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.560 reason that reoccurs over a period of time, because I 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.000 know some of the reasons that they would happen we're 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.880 going to talk about in the theory section. So that's 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.080 that's a big presumption. I have to say, I'm going 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.200 to do it just this way because it's easiest. No, Actually, 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:20.880 what I really would have done pitched him out in 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:25.439 the trash, but yeah, not broken. I would have got 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:27.440 to the hassle of making them little coffins. I would 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:31.240 have just like tossed them but given them too. Obviously, Yeah, 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:34.000 obviously I've got I've got different motivations than whoever with 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.400 these things there. And here's where I get to actually 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:38.480 nerd out a little bit to help justify my no 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.960 longer than twelve years things, because I'm really excited about this. 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:46.280 I am a bit of a historical fashion buff you 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.800 as you to know sitting in this room with me, 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:53.800 and this is where don't talk anymore. There was a 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.920 lot of analysis of the textiles and notions. And notions 0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:01.360 are like thread and buttons and the other miscellaneous things 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.520 other than just the cloth that you would use to 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:07.320 create something in case you didn't know what those things were. Anyways, 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:11.120 there was a lot of analysis happening on that aspect 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:15.560 of the dolls. Since it was it's pretty well recognized 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:17.600 that they probably were tour soldiers and they came from 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:20.760 the same set. It's hard to glean a date from 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:23.720 that because they could have been years old by the 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:27.680 time they were placed in the coffin. So they thought, well, 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:30.520 let's look at the fabric, which I think is great. 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:32.600 If you look at the pictures of the dolls, it's 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:37.320 fairly clear to say that they're not really clothed for burial. 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.840 That is to say, they're not in the traditional burial 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:46.280 clothes of the time. It's more of a garments kind 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:51.760 of representing clothes every day where, or maybe not garments 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:56.320 at all, just to cover basically chunks of cloth that 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.520 they just put over the top of them, right, Yeah, 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.160 except that they weren't actually just placed on top of 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:05.400 them like a blanket. They were actually sewn into sleeves 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:10.000 and pants. In fact, some of the dolls that were 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:14.360 missing arms also there are not armholes where an arm 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.800 would have been. The seam is sewn up over that 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.280 missing arm. So they were clothed for the purpose of 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.320 going into those coffins once the coffins were made to size, 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.320 which is fairly interesting. No, you guys are looking at 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:29.960 me like this is boring. Well just I just this 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:35.040 is this fashion with thread count and notions are I 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.360 don't get it? Yeah, so this is the this is 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:38.800 actually the bit. I'll just get to the bit that 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:42.720 excites me a lot. The curator of European Textiles at 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.520 the National Museum of Scotland looked at these garments and 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.160 she noticed that the thread that had been used in 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:53.600 some of the garments with three ply cotton thread. This, okay, 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.560 three ply though cotton threats. So you know applies are 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:01.760 because you buy toilet paper. Yeah right. The reply is 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.520 there's three layers. Yes, two ply is two layers and 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:09.200 single ply is one layer. Never used single ply, right, 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:11.800 Why would you ever do that to yourself? It's awful. 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.760 But the same thing goes for thread. You can make 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.160 thread with just one strand, or you can make it 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:22.760 with multiple strands. It's stronger. So it's three strands wound 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.160 around each other pretty much. Yeah, okay, I've got it. 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.640 This is significant because the kind of thread, this three 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:35.000 ply cotton thread wasn't even remotely available prior to eighteen twelve, 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:39.520 and didn't become readily available and used until the eighteen thirties. 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:42.080 So that can help us give a bit of a 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:47.120 timeline for these garments. And it is fair to say 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.120 that the some of the other garments were sewn with 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:54.080 two or one ply thread, so they could have been 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:58.360 sewn earlier at the same time. You know, people don't 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:00.720 just pitch stuff out right. I mean, I've got I've 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:03.040 actually got sewing thread that I inherited from my mother, 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:05.960 and you know who knows she might have inherited from 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:10.639 her grand because why throw it out? Yeah, there's a 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:12.359 couple of loops that you hang onto him for a 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:16.040 quick stitch job. Yeah, So this allows us to date 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:21.520 the dolls as having likely been interred between the eighteen twenties, 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:26.960 mid eighteen twenties to mid eighteen thirties, likely eight eighteen 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.679 thirty five, just for convenience sake, I would say it's 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:34.240 a pretty good time frame on cotton thread. So at first, 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.120 the suspicion was that these dolls were related to witchcraft. 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:43.000 That's what which I mean, this is kind of late 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:48.399 for the witchcraft bandwagon. It's not the sixteen hundreds. Probably 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:50.280 at that time, probably still a lot of people are 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:52.919 kind of believing in that stuff. Well, it turns out 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:57.240 as recently as some women in Russia were murdered because 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.000 they used folk magic on some people. They were burned 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.600 at the stake. No, I mean even in the even 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.440 in the twenty one century. I mean, there have been rumors, 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.320 rumors of witchcraft started in some countries in Africa, and 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.280 next thing you know, people are getting killed because of it. Yeah, 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:16.200 so it's still going on. Yeah, people thought maybe because 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.240 they were mixing voodoo and witchcraft. Up, I'm not totally sure. 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.040 I'm not up on my witchcraft stuff. I guess I 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.240 should go back and do some learning. I didn't realize 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.760 that they used dolls, but I guess the theory was 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:34.360 that maybe the dolls were used to symbolically confined victims 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:38.680 to their tombs forever. Well, the dolls could be there. 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:45.280 An effigy and effigies have a pretty long history and 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:49.160 they've been used for lots of things, traditional burial things 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:52.280 when a sarcophagus is not the right thing. But if 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:56.560 you see the old stone carvings of kings that sit 0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:00.439 on top of their their caskets, that's an effigy. But 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:03.960 effigies have been used in all scales for all kinds 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:08.639 of practices through time, so an effigy can easily be 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:10.520 linked to it. And I don't think it has to 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:13.520 just be a voodoo saying fair. Yeah, and I guess 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:18.760 we're in Theories's just keep talking about theories. Another primary 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.679 early theory was that these dolls were meant to represent 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:26.280 an effigy a bit sailors who had been lost at sea, 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.760 to give them a sort of ceremonial burial. And like 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:32.600 we said earlier, Arthur's seat is just about two miles 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:34.840 away from the coast of the North Sea. It does 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:39.200 overlook the sea. It's pretty It's the kind of place 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.280 you might bury somebody you cared about, even if only 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:46.320 in a four inch long doll. That makes sense, But 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:48.679 you would think that would be some sort of memorial marker. 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:51.720 You would think that you would also think that there 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.920 would have been some sort of record of the loss 0:19:54.960 --> 0:20:01.240 of seventeen souls. I don't think they bothered again, Okay, 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:03.440 I'm going to point out a fallacy in that that, 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:08.359 which is you're presuming that all seventeen died at the 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:12.520 same time. We're we're giving a ten year range for 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:16.240 these things to have been interred, which means that even 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:18.520 if it wasn't over that ten year time span, there 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.760 could have been time between them being put in there. 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:26.600 So it could be I knew Steve and Joe went 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:31.080 on this ship, and then that whaling ship sank, so 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:34.200 I made effigy so I could bury them at home, 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:38.720 and then of course, and then the next is the 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:41.280 next ship that you know a couple of guys are on, 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:43.359 and so it could have built up that way. So 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:45.320 I mean, we've got to be careful of saying they 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:48.119 were all interred at the same time with that idea. 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:50.560 That's fair, That's totally fair. I guess I just think 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:55.399 there's a cooler theory out there. I hate I hate 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:57.919 this one. Why do you want to talk about that 0:20:57.960 --> 0:20:59.560 first or do you want to talk about it after? 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:03.320 Let's wait till after. No, let's talk about your feelings. 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:07.600 Let's not you know, I'm not a big talking about 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:11.560 my feelings guy. Podcast therapy session. This is not that podcast. 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.040 Are you guys ready? Are you guys up on your 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:19.840 early nineteenth century murders in Scotland? Yeah, some listeners maybe 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.000 as well, So you might know these guys, William Burke 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:26.280 and William Hair. Yeah. Burke and Hair were Irish born 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.639 immigrants to Scotland. They are so famous, in fact, that 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:33.399 there's apparently a British term called Burking, which is derived 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:35.960 from Burke's name. So why are they famous? You may 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:38.080 be asking if you don't know, if you're not up 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:40.840 like we are on our early nineteenth century murders in Scotland. 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.960 Well for killing people, of course at the killings. They 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:49.320 are the guys behind what's known as the Westport murders, 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:52.960 and they killed sixteen people in ten months. But Devin, 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:56.359 you're yelling undoubtedly at your iPod in the car and 0:21:56.359 --> 0:22:02.160 people think you're crazy. There were seventeen calls. Well, kind listener, 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:06.280 that's interesting because Burke and hair were killing folks to 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:09.600 sell to a doctor to dissect, and they actually sold 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:13.960 seventeen bodies. The first one died of natural causes. That 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:18.080 was there, like introductory, that was their inspiration. It's like, hey, wow, 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:21.080 they thought, oh, let's sell him. And then they're waiting 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:23.240 for somebody else to die natural causes, and they thought, 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:25.680 let's just rush the process a little bit. Yeah, the 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:29.960 first so he expired of natural causes, and they they yeah, 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:33.040 they basically realized how much money they could make and said, hey, 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:35.480 why don't we just kill some people sell their bodies. 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:40.000 What did they get? They sold it to a professor, 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:44.920 a doctor named Dr Knox, who is using him for lectures. 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:48.439 That's what it was. Okay, so they actually sold the 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:51.640 first body for a hefty seven pounds ten shillings, which 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:54.199 doesn't sound like much now, but is about the equivalent 0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:58.240 of one thousand, two hundred and six dollars and cents 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:03.560 or about eight dred and six pounds in two thousand fifteen. Yeah, 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:06.640 I gotta tell you that that really wouldn't be enough 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:10.040 to incent about a murder somebody. In fairness, it's not 0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:18.160 nothing for just finding a body talking about murdering bucks, 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:20.840 I might be tempted. That's a good point. It gets better. 0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:25.240 Doctor Knox offered any bodies that they bring him further, 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:28.600 particularly if they were mostly healthy and just died of like, oh, 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:31.600 I don't know, asphixiation or something. He would pay them 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:34.439 ten pounds a body, and I'll do some quick I 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:37.560 did some quick math, and that meant that they in 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:39.720 ten months they would have made a handy twelve thousand, 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:42.760 four hundred and ninety six dollars in today's But there's 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:45.840 actually a better calculation for what it is actually equivalent 0:23:45.880 --> 0:23:48.760 to with the cost of living. Blah blah blah, blah blah. 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:50.240 If you want to find out how I got this number, 0:23:50.280 --> 0:23:51.879 you can email me. I will tell you all about it. 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:55.760 I don't know for everybody, but it actually is about 0:23:55.800 --> 0:24:03.480 the equivalent of two hundred and ten two dollars in 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:06.600 ten months by selling seventeen bodies and murdering sixteen people. 0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:12.119