WEBVTT - 115: Tearing Down Disney with Robert Evans 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:13.640 It's eleven nine pm at Sinnanon and you're listening to Nightcall. Hello, 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:16.319 and welcome back to Night Call, a call in show 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.520 for our dystopian reality. I am Tess Lynch and with 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:24.600 me are Molly Lambert and Emily Oshida. Hey guys, Hello, 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.360 And later in the show we're going to be joined 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:31.440 by Robert Evans, hosts of Behind the Bastards, um and 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:34.800 citizen journalists to tell us uh all about being a 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:38.200 live streamer in these crazy times. We thought we would 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:43.240 jump in real quick. With an email from Meg, she writes, Hello, Nightcall. 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.160 Wasn't sure if you've seen the online petition going around 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.880 demanding that Splash Mountain be re themed to Princess and 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:51.159 the Frog. I work in the theme park industry here 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:54.600 in Orlando, and usually when updating a classic ride comes up, 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.920 there are many decries from theme park enthusiasts and Disney 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:00.600 purists that this is a racing history and the ride 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.240 should be used as a teaching moment. Same argument came 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:05.600 up with the retheming of the Bride Auction scene and 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.520 Pirates of the Caribbean. While I agree with what Karina 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:11.400 Longworth recently tweeted about films like Song of the South 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.199 and Gone with the Wind, where de circulating these films 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:16.600 can turn them into fetish objects. I'm not sure this 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:19.440 applies to theme park rides. While it's nice to think 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.240 that parents would use problematic aspects of rides as a 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.119 teaching moment for their children, I believe it's not the case. 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.119 The majority of the time, theme park rides feature simple 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.720 story narratives that can be easily consumed in less than 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:33.800 ten minutes. And while I appreciate the museum s aspects 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:36.560 of some Disney attractions, mostly at Epcot or the Everest 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.640 Que and the Animal Kingdom, the reality is people don't 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:42.479 linger and ponder these galleries and theme parks. They rush 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:44.720 past them as it is another box to be checked 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:46.800 on the to do list of things to cram in 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.640 on their vacation. I feel that theme park rides are 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:53.320 more like Confederate statues in that it subconsciously communicates the 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.440 kind of ideas, stories, morals of history we uphold as 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.240 worthy of celebration. Would love to hear your thoughts. Thank 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:01.760 you for keeping me company every week. Just watched Eyes 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.480 Without a Phase last week and loved it. Thank you, Meg. 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:08.040 What do you guys think thanks Meg, Yeah, this is great. 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:12.320 I mean I my first thought in reading this email 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.320 was just like okay, like like yes, a ride that 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:19.800 was created in nineteen to celebrate Song of the South, 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:22.720 which is like not even available to like watch legally, 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:24.880 is insane and it's insane that that was made in 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:27.840 if you go to Great Moments with Mr Lincoln, that's 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:31.440 like kind of the shadow most offensive thing in Disneyland, 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:33.680 and it's like that's one of those things. It's truly 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:36.920 like embraced by the Disneyland heads where they're like, you 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:40.079 can't mess with that. That's classic Disneyland. But it's so 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:44.600 fucked up it's crazy. I feel like there are well 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.280 that's the thing too, It's like there are other even 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.919 more funked up rides still in Disneyland. Um, the Jungle 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:55.440 Cruise is more openly racist than Splash Mountain because Splash 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:59.040 Mountain is like so divorced from the source material that 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.919 unless you knew it was a Song of the South ride, 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.960 you would never know that. Yeah. I mean we we 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:07.680 talked about this when we had Karina on before she 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:10.200 did her Song of the South series on You must 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.240 be Remember this, which is great, highly recommended if you 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.600 haven't listened to that yet. But uh, because it is 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.760 like for me, a nineties kid or whatever. I went 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:23.480 on Splash Mountain, you know, during our vacation to California 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.480 when I was like five, and there was songs from 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:29.160 Song of the South on Disney sing along tapes, and 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.359 there's like, weirdly the thing lives on in a way. 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:35.960 I can't. I think that they're just different kinds of insidious. 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:38.880 That's more just like we're not going to let this go, 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:43.160 even though we're gonna like make the source material mysteriously unavailable, 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:46.720 but we're going to like honor it in quotes somehow. Well, 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:50.800 there's a lot of like Antebellum South fetishization and Disney 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:55.240 also because that's like Waltz whole bit, you know, So 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:59.520 I think it's very baked into all theme parks, uh, 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.800 that kind of imperialism. Yeah, I mean there's like kind 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:07.880 of that Antebellum architecture in a lot of Like there's 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:10.560 a theme park I grew up going to a lot 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:13.120 in Kansas City called Worlds of Fun. I'm sure that 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:17.400 people who listened from Kansas City will have thoughts about 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:19.520 World of Fun if they've been there, but I feel 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:22.279 like there's a lot of that was like an international 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.080 themed one, but I swear that there was like a 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.160 bunch of like the genteel Little South type stuff in 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.479 there too, just because it's like Kansas. But yeah, I 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.320 would say, like I'm all for I don't think that 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:36.120 UM theme parks should necessarily be treated as museums. And 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.159 like Disneyland wanted to make a museum where they like 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.000 put their shuttered stuff, I think that would actually be 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:44.520 really valuable. But they will never do anything that's that 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:49.200 self reflexive or like self critical, right. For sure, they 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:52.280 don't want us to talk about it, but definitely some 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:56.960 of like there are just other little weird racist easter 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.800 eggs all over Disneyland because they like never get rid 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:03.720 of anything too. So there was like a Native American 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:10.159 village that took up most of Frontier Land when it opened. Um. 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:14.080 But they're like animatronics from that on the Mark Twain Cruise. 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.719 Like I had never actually gone around the river until 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:19.720 I did once, and I was like, oh, there's all 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:24.720 these like repurposed Native American animatronics that I did not know. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:29.680 We're still in Disneyland, um, but it's that Disney. It's that, 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:32.479 like Karina talks about on her podcast, is that sort 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:36.919 of paternalists, Like, here's history from the point of view 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.840 of a funked up, old racist white guy telling you 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:43.040 what history was. Like. I agree with what you guys 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.720 are saying, but I do have one question about Meg's email, 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.560 which is why why would the Princess and the Frog 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:53.280 be the reinvent perfect. It's not interesting to me, it's 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:58.359 not compelling. I really liked the the Moanna idea, and 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:02.320 I was into the Utopia idea. Zutopia should be an 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.120 entire land. Anyway, Here's why it has to be The 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:10.839 Princess and the Frog Because it's next to New Orleans Square. 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:15.040 That whole area is already New Orleans themed. The Haunted Mansion, 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.760 the little fake Bourbon Street area, and the Pirates, the 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:26.479 Blue balou ball Um, all that stuff is kind of 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:28.240 New Orleans themed. And then you go over to like 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:32.839 Critter Country, it's more just like ambiguously Southern themed, but 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:36.200 Princess and the Frog is New Orleans. Critter Country is 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:40.080 like Appalachia and and New Orleans is more of the South. 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:44.039 It's like you got a brief tour eastern United States 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:47.000 between Main Street, USA and there. But is there enough 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:49.760 like water in The Princess and the Frog. Yeah, it 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:53.080 takes places I don't remember anything about. Also, the good 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.320 thing about Princess and the Frog, like and I can't 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:58.560 remember from the last time I went to Disneyland how 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:01.080 much of a presence it has in in New Orleans 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:02.560 and the New Orleans part of the park piece. If 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:04.960 it doesn't, that's also fucked up because it felt like 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:07.719 it was Taylor made to be slotted into that part 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.520 of the Disney Parks experience because it's like very like 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:14.119 like voodoo and like I don't know, like there's tons 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.920 of music and it's it's it's all like very the 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.320 villain from that movie who was a great villain. Um 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:24.760 he appears in the Halloween Parade that they just announced 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:29.000 they are not doing this year because of COVID oh um. 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.640 But I did just also get an ad for Orlando 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:36.160 for um Universal Orlando reopening, like one second before we 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:38.960 started recording, and it was an ad that showed them 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:43.360 like wiping down escalators and for the whole family. I 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.040 roll my eyes so hard when we talk about that 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:49.200 stuff on this podcast. I feel like it's audible. I've 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.200 been getting a lot of ads for casinos and in 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:55.320 the same vein of like, it's been too long, it's 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.360 been too long. It has it has to be Princess 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:02.160 and the Frog because it's black, the first black princess 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.280 in Disney history. Yeah, it's only right. I had no 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:07.800 idea the Princess. I saw The Princess and the Frog 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:11.440 and I was like, I don't have like any it 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.440 was here. It was like, it's got like it's very 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:17.440 musically driven, music driven, as I recall, I think I 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:19.680 saw it like whenever it came out, which makes it 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:22.920 good for um Splash Mountain because Splash Mountain ends with 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.240 like a big kind of musical performance, so it's like 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.120 very easy to drop in all the animatronics. Mountain already 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:30.400 has a river boat, Like there's just a lot of 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.040 things you could easily adapt New Orleans. The people. The 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.280 thing that people really didn't like about The Princess and 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.240 the Frog is that it gives you this black princess 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:40.920 Tiana and then it turns her into a frog for 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.160 the whole movie. Oh shit, this is the t I'm 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:46.640 sorry I shouldn't say ship and then talk about the 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.960 children's movie. It's like I'm conditioned to correct myself there. 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.880 But I I know I have a Tiana fan in 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:56.320 my house, but we have never watched. But now that 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.040 I guess we have Disney plus we can. I was 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.319 thinking it was like an old tiny thing I love. 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:04.400 At this point, you could just be a fan of 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.600 Tiana and never have having seen the Princess and the Frog, 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.240 because that's just like Disney. Princesses is its whole separate 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:15.160 like machine. It's it's weird, the like weird sieve of information. 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:17.440 It's the same with L O L Surprise dolls, like 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.199 I I don't know what they are, but I can 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:24.240 recognize them. There was an L L Surprise controversy. The 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:29.080 L L Surprise guy just got canceled because he ripped 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:33.640 off L Surprise sounds like something that was like destined 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:38.320 to get canceled canceled. It's like a big ball full 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:40.880 of toys. I's that's the surprise. It's like a plastic 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:42.880 ball and you open it is full of toys, but 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.280 the dolls inside. There was a controversy too, But it's 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:48.480 maybe I'm mixing it up, but I think that in 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.520 a parenting group that I'm in there was a controversy 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:54.640 where the L O L Surprise dolls were like dressed 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.080 very like as if they had just come out of 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.360 like a sex dungeon or something, and it was like, 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.080 l O Surprise, you don't get to choose which dolls 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.800 you get, and then it didn't really go well, but 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:10.320 I'll fact check this, okay. So L Surprise introduced a 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:14.800 doll called the Rainbow Raver that is an exact like 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.520 replica of this girl who's an influencer whose name is 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:24.040 Amina Mucciolo who uh Brat's and Mattel I think also 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:28.240 she's been ripped off before. She but basically they made 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.640 a doll of her. She's like her. Her whole thing 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.840 is like Rainbow Raver and she has like blue hair 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:36.640 with like if you look at the doll and you 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.360 look at her, you're like, yes, this is a huge 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.240 This is definitely like a rip off of this specific person. 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:45.520 So she called them out on it online and then 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:48.439 the guy who is the CEO of L O L 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.280 Surprise like tweeted a bunch of racist ship back at her, 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.800 and everybody was like, hey, you know this is public 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:59.520 and we can all see you, right, So geez Louise, 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:04.480 so um, he was like denied all culpability and said 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:08.640 some racist stuff to her. So a little surprise canceled? 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:14.480 Can cancel? Yeah? You canceled? What Disneyland rides? Would you guys? 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:18.319 Re theme? And how? Oh man, I'm trying to think 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.040 of ones I don't well, I've this is just a 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:23.720 personal preference. I really don't like the Teacups ride at 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.160 this point. I've noticed at some point I becoming dizzy 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.160 was like the worst experience for me and I I 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.920 got on the Teacups last time and I almost had 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.280 to like emergency get off and spew because I just 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:37.480 couldn't deal with the dizzy. So I'm like, is there 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.320 a wit and and the Dumbo rides? It's like the 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:42.679 like ones that I loved as a child. Maybe I 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.600 just want other children to not experience the joy I had, 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:49.320 And probably Teacups are one of the few things that 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.880 I feel like our iron clad like they're never like 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.240 they're so timeless, and they're like I get so happy 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:58.360 whenever I see the Teacups because the design is so 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.120 perfect and they keep them so fun can clean that 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:03.360 it's like they have to because people throw up on 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:05.679 the time. I'm sure, like I'm sure they get wiped 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:09.280 down even pre COVID like every hour, but like, um, 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:13.120 and there's like nothing, there's there's no like creatures in it. 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.160 Besides like the cheshire Cat. It's just like those cute 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.160 little lanterns and stuff, and it's just like it's great. 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.360 It's like peak Disney aesthetic. I feel like, right well, 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:23.600 that's the thing, right is Disney is all about like 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:27.280 wiping away the sharp corners of history to make it 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:30.880 just like what was really going on at that tea party, 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:36.440 just the antiseptic you know world, Yeah, I mean I would. 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.840 I would. The one that bums me out the most 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.320 right now, and it is a recently made over one 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.640 is the um how they read it, leagues under the 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.320 stay to be finding Nemo. Oh totally. I changed my 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:52.000 answer to that. It's it's awful. It's so depressing too, 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:54.400 because you can't help but remember when you like descend 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.520 the stairs into the submarine how it used to be, 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:59.160 and it's so like it's like who wants to watch 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:01.600 a TV under water? That's what's funny. It's like we 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.240 all care so much more about that than about a 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.480 potential Splash Mountain retheeming like Splash Mountain. I'm like, even 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.760 though we are all of the Splash Mountain generation, like 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:13.960 make it the Princess and the Frog, I don't care, 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.720 Like that would be better for the kids, but it 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.000 still has to have the drop. It's the same ride. 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:22.800 It's the same ride. Okay, okay, that was my my other. 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:24.640 I was like, we have to think of something where 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:28.520 there's like a wet drop the ride tech. It's like 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:31.559 you can build in any narrative excuse for a wet drop, 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.040 Like that's like the Jurassic Park ride thing. It's like, 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.680 why when is there a wet drop in Jurassic Park 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:38.840 and yet they managed to make one of the best 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.240 wet drops of all time. I love saying wet drop? 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:44.720 Did we just coin it? Have you guys seen all 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.960 the Jurassic Park tweets that have been going around where 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.680 everybody's like, remember when we thought it was unrealistic that 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.319 they would reopen the park immediately after people died not 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:59.360 but again they're like that was the plot hole. Everybody 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.080 was like, why would they like just open it for 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.200 people to come dine? Who would go to a park 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:09.160 like that? It's like because of freedom, and everybody should 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:11.360 be free to get eaten by a dinosaur if that's 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.600 what they want, that's your own personal liberty. Should we 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.640 take a break and come back with a nightcall, Let's 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:35.000 do it, hig, nightcall. M. I'm not sure if this 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:38.680 is going to work in terms of the math and 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:42.720 the calendar of what podcasts reproduced versus now. But UM, 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.480 in the most recent episode where we you guys talked 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:51.600 about California Slitch, you mentioned centan On, which is a 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:59.080 fascinating organization. UM. And they owned this luxury hotel in 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:02.200 sam Bonica for a long time, but then in the 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:07.440 late seventies they kind of collapsed after UM then there 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.040 was a lot of criminal activity that they were involved in, 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:14.240 including putting a rattlesnake in the mailbox of an attorney 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.760 who had brought food against them. But anyway, there's all 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.520 all kinds of weird CULTI stuff that they did that 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:25.520 has had a lot of influence in UM behavior modification 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.880 still to this day. UM. So, anyway, it might be 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.240 something you guys would be interested into diving in deeper. 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:35.440 Thanks by such a good night call. I am fascinated 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:39.000 by sinn Anon. Yeah, UM, I didn't really like I 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:40.960 didn't really. I think I had read about them before, 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:42.760 and then I didn't put it together when you know 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.240 they're credited at the end of California Split I because 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.160 it's like one of those names like Lyn that just 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:53.600 kind of sounds like nothing. Yeah, but yeah, super super 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.600 interesting though. Yeah. I think I heard about Sinnanon from 0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:00.480 a friend of my mom's. Actually, he was like, have 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:05.000 you ever looked into cinnnon? It's fascinating because I didn't know. 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:07.840 I sort of knew I had heard the name before, 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.720 but I think I got it confused with narcinon, which 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:19.160 is the scientology narcotics anonymous. But well there's like there's Alanon, 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.960 which is like friends of a There's just a lot 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:27.000 of anons to Alanan's legit. Yeah, some of these are 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:31.800 legit and some are not. Um Cinnanon was a It 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.920 was a drug rehab program that was founded by this 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:39.480 guy named Chuck detorck Um in nine eight in Santa Monica, 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:44.440 And it started as rehab and then it kind of 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:48.960 became more of like a probing, like who am I thing? 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:52.360 And then it became a cult. Basically it always had. 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.160 It was the whole thing was that it was the 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:58.400 first drug rehab with no doctors involved. It was the 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:03.120 first like self help drug rehab and Chuck Dettoric came 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:06.000 up with it apparently after taking acid he was like, 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.560 we should look inside. And it was founded like a 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:14.440 few years before Lyn. But some of the group games 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.000 and stuff are very similar to ESLYN. It's just like 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:21.359 getting past your hang ups to like what's really underneath inside, 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.679 and we're gonna get a lot of uncensored talking, like 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:26.760 we're going to get right after it. We're going to 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:33.520 talk about it again, just like very similar to acting exercises. Yeah, 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:36.680 like the whole master thing. You a little walking back 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.359 and forth between the walls and slapping them types of 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.959 you know, oh for sure with your friends. So they 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:48.560 played a game that was called The Game. That sounds 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:53.320 very scary, where you like get people all up in 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.000 their insecurities. Oh um, I used to play this in 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:02.800 high school. Actually I did, like Total side by. There 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:04.320 was a thing called the Game. Did you ever know 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.520 about this around that time? That's just like the game. 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.080 You're always playing the game until you think of the game, 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:11.679 and then you've lost the game, and then you have 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:16.120 to say I lost the game. It's one of those 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:20.760 like kind of stonery high school things. But anyway, I've 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:23.320 also done probably the other game as well, more familiar 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.000 with the one where you like make a hand sign 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:26.600 and try to get your friend to look at it, 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:28.520 and then you're like you lost the game when they 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:31.399 see when they do, oh, I don't know, you go 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.000 like this but like down down by your knee and 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.600 then you can see what I'm doing on a podcast 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:40.280 in your mind. Okay, Well back to cynan On. It 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:44.400 also became a church Molly you mentioned, and well they 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:48.879 became they basically filed for church status. Um, they like 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.359 incorporated into a company. It was like this guy had 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:55.440 a storefront in Santa Monica and then he they moved 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.680 into some old army barracks on the beach, and then 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:01.800 they ended up make enough money to buy a hotel 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.360 called the club Casa del Mar, which I think became 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:10.359 Shutters maybe really yeah, And but they turned it into 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:14.960 dorms and it was sort of like a commune as well. 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:17.159 It was like anyone could join. You didn't have to 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:21.280 be in recovery, um, but you had to go totally 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.320 cold turkey off drugs and you had to cut off 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.240 contact with everybody from the outside world for three months, 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:31.560 which is very culty and after a few years. It 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:34.560 was originally supposed to be a two year in patient 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.040 program and then you get out, but at some point 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:42.040 Chuck decided that there was no like, once you're an addict, 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.600 you never really recover, so you can never really leave 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:48.159 cinn and On. It's the Hotel California. So then it 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.680 just kind of morphed into a cult. And they all 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.480 shave their heads. Yeah, they shave their heads. They married, couples, 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:59.399 had to break up, um, they gave men vass actomes 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:03.080 and and coerced people into having abortion. It's just so crazy. 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:07.560 So I know, like it you mentioned, uh that uh 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.040 th h X eleven thirty eight George Lucas first feature 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.239 used extras from it, but like that just makes it 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:16.840 sound like it was based like th X eleven thirty 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:19.520 eight was based on cineon, because that's what th h 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.760 X eleven thirty Like, nobody can have sex and in it, 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:26.720 and it's just like everybody sort of the androgynous drone. Well, 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.720 I think people were experimenting with a lot of alternative 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.000 living situations at the time. That's the thing is like 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:36.240 Sinnnon was one of so many things that were happening 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:41.359 in uh the sixties in the alternative line living space. 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:44.840 I don't think people like batted it an eye at Cinnon, yeah, 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:47.840 as much as we might right now. Well, there was 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:51.119 so the anecdote about the snake in the mailbox, um 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.880 is very interesting to me. There's an l a megum 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:58.920 article about this by Hill L. Aaron, But it's basically 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:03.400 there was like a journalist turned lawyer named Paul Morant's Yeah, 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:05.800 I looked at his website a bunch because he yeah, 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:09.240 he has a website too. Um. But he had sued 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:12.080 sinning On On behalf of this woman who claimed that 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:14.800 she had been kidnapped and tortured and brainwashed and a 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:18.240 bunch of horrible stuff, and Morants won the lawsuits, so 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:20.760 they got three thousand dollars. And then once he realized 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:24.560 how horrible this group was, he started pressuring the Department 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.040 of Public Health to shut them down. And then he 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:30.760 started getting like scary retaliatory phone calls and threats from 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:34.040 Sinnonon members. So he got really paranoid because I mean, 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:36.439 much like people who speak out about scientology, it just 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:39.920 sounded like it. It was very oppressive to him. Um, 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:42.680 and one day he was like, I'm gonna stop thinking 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:44.840 about this. I feel like I've just been so paranoid. 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:47.879 And he was chilling out watching sports on TV and 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:50.800 then he saw a weirdly shaped package slipped through the 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:53.040 mail slot in his door, and when he went to 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:55.040 grab it, it was a four and a half foot 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.320 long rattlesnake that bit him on the hand, and the 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:01.119 rattler on the tail had been moved so that it 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:04.320 wouldn't make noise and alert him, which is the fucking 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:08.880 scariest thing I've ever heard. Um, it's it's so bizarre. 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:11.080 I mean, it's and it's weird. I would have thought 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:13.600 that this would have been on our radar from day one, 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:16.320 but I really hadn't heard of it until California split, 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:18.520 and then I was like, what's this. Well, that's what's 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:20.439 so funny about it was it was like right on 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:22.960 the beach for so many years. It was like everybody 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:26.600 knew about it because it was on the strand and 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:31.240 you would see the synanon people like wandering around. It's 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:33.399 just so weird to think about a time when Santa 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:39.080 Monica had like anything that weird in it. I heard 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:43.800 the worst story yesterday about Manhattan Beach from Kate Raft 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:47.920 was posting about it, worse than the eyelash House. Yes, 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:54.200 a rich white mom uh filed to hold a BLM March, 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:58.399 but it was actually just a graduation march for her 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:03.080 daughter and her friends. Yeah, and they didn't they have 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:05.560 hula hoops. I heard about this. It was like, and 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:08.119 then they could they could pretend like it was an 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:12.400 exercise class if they got caught. Wait, so way did 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:14.720 she She had to file because they wanted to have 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:18.080 like a gathering of more than however many people. Yes, 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:20.159 so she said they were having a BLM March, But 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:22.720 then it was actually just like a rich white kid 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:26.440 graduation party. Like we're we're in lays while we walked 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:32.920 around in our graduation outfits. Manhattan Beach is so bizarre. Yeah, well, 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:34.840 I think I feel like sent it on. You know, 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:38.600 there's that the weird Rehab and Inherent Vice too is 0:23:38.640 --> 0:23:42.680 totally it feels like sent it on to me. Um. 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:45.439 Thomas Pinchin lived in Manhattan Beach before it got so 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:50.680 gentrified that nobody cool could live there. Um. Yeah, imagine 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:54.120 living at the beach and it being weird and scuzzy 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:59.879 again the dream, Yeah, I mean the the idea, like 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:05.520 the proximity of of rehab to um two cults at 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:08.560 that time, it just feels like this like perfect timing 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:10.439 because it's like the first time that people have actually 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:14.160 started to think about drug rehabilitation and like getting people 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:17.840 like like aside from like a sanitarium or something super 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:19.880 old school, like, people were actually trying to think about 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:23.000 holistic ways of treating drug addiction. Right. In a way, 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:28.880 these people invented like promises, right, they invented the beachside rehab, 0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:32.000 which is now like Malibu is completely overrun with these 0:24:32.119 --> 0:24:37.760 rich person rehabs. They take up like half the real estate. Um. 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:40.119 It's interesting to think of that coming out as something 0:24:40.359 --> 0:24:45.720 as scuzzy and actually counterculture. As sent anon. I watched 0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:51.560 Spaceship Earth, which I recommend so much um because it's 0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:53.840 about the biosphere. But I had no idea. It was 0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:57.600 about how the biosphere came out of a commune and no, 0:24:57.640 --> 0:25:01.920 out of like a weird um into puntional community that 0:25:02.359 --> 0:25:04.560 is headed by a guy whose name is Dolphin Johnny 0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:09.000 nice um but you know, friends with Buckminster Fuller. Like 0:25:09.040 --> 0:25:12.000 it's all legit, but it's sort of the good version 0:25:12.040 --> 0:25:14.960 of this where everybody's like, yeah, nothing bad happened. We 0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:17.879 just sailed around the world on a ship we built ourselves. 0:25:18.640 --> 0:25:21.520 That's the dream. And they're like they're like also an 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:27.760 experimental theater company of course really eventually. I mean that's 0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:30.960 why I'm like, like, I feel like the odds of 0:25:30.960 --> 0:25:35.280 of a rehab commune or something turning into an experimental 0:25:35.320 --> 0:25:38.840 theater company are just so high as becoming a cult. 0:25:38.920 --> 0:25:43.680 It's just we only hear about the cults um. One 0:25:43.680 --> 0:25:46.200 thing I did learn about cinnan On that I didn't 0:25:46.280 --> 0:25:51.760 know is that allegedly they morphed into the wilderness retreat 0:25:51.880 --> 0:25:55.320 rehab thing that super rich kids in l A do. 0:25:56.280 --> 0:25:57.639 Is that the one where you get snatched out of 0:25:57.640 --> 0:25:59.320 your bed in the middle of the night. Uh huh. 0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:04.159 It's a whole mini industry that's like for kids who 0:26:04.280 --> 0:26:06.880 do too many drugs, their parents pay to have them 0:26:06.920 --> 0:26:10.159 sent away to do like a yeah, like do like 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:14.400 a experience type thing, like pretty much an escape room, 0:26:14.600 --> 0:26:17.920 like a turbo escape room, turbo escape room in the woods. 0:26:18.040 --> 0:26:20.760 It's like they leave you in the woods with materials 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:23.479 and you have to like find your way back. Um. 0:26:23.480 --> 0:26:25.760 People have died on them. They have been kids who 0:26:25.760 --> 0:26:28.840 have died from heating. Expose a few years ago about 0:26:28.840 --> 0:26:31.399 these that was so hard to read. It's so cruel. 0:26:31.680 --> 0:26:35.240 I think I was totally like, who runs these and 0:26:35.359 --> 0:26:38.280 finding out it's like that's what sinnan on turned into 0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:47.000 creepy but also makes sense. Terrible boo cancel sinning on too. Well, guys, 0:26:47.000 --> 0:26:49.440 should we take a break before we have our guest 0:26:49.600 --> 0:27:03.040 Robert Evans join us. Yeah, let's let's do it. Welcome 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:06.680 back Tonight Call. We are thrilled to be joined today 0:27:06.680 --> 0:27:11.879 by our guest, Robert Evans, the only Robert Evans. Uh. 0:27:12.040 --> 0:27:15.040 Robert is the host of Behind the Bastards, also on 0:27:15.119 --> 0:27:19.800 I Heart Radio, and Behind the Police, the new spinoff. 0:27:20.400 --> 0:27:22.480 He's also the author of a Brief History of Vice 0:27:22.720 --> 0:27:27.440 and is an investigative journalist at Bellancat. Welcome Robert tonight Call. 0:27:28.040 --> 0:27:31.480 Thank you for having me. We've all been on Behind 0:27:31.480 --> 0:27:34.040 the Bastards at certain points. So now you're you're in 0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:38.000 our archer. You're on the other side of the church 0:27:38.640 --> 0:27:43.879 ship just got reciprocal. We wanted to talk to you 0:27:43.920 --> 0:27:47.720 a little bit today about sort of the citizen journalism 0:27:47.840 --> 0:27:52.680 aspect of the recent protests and uprising, and then take 0:27:52.720 --> 0:27:57.600 some listener questions. Yeah, that are specifically for our guest, Robert. 0:27:57.840 --> 0:27:59.480 We got a ton of good ones too, so you 0:27:59.560 --> 0:28:03.360 better have all the answers. Oh boy, okay, well I'll 0:28:03.400 --> 0:28:06.720 do my how to defeat fascism, etcetera. Um, we're going 0:28:06.800 --> 0:28:10.040 to figure that out. Robert. You've been reporting live from 0:28:10.119 --> 0:28:16.320 the Pacific Northwest during the past month, uh and before that, 0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:19.960 and you are very much on the front lines of 0:28:20.160 --> 0:28:25.280 the stuff, both online and and offline. So we just 0:28:25.320 --> 0:28:27.400 wanted to talk to you a little bit about your 0:28:27.440 --> 0:28:31.720 experiences doing that. Yeah, you know, I got bored during 0:28:31.720 --> 0:28:35.159 the lockdown of you know, exercising in my front yard 0:28:35.280 --> 0:28:38.760 and going on jugs, so like dodging police munitions was 0:28:38.760 --> 0:28:41.880 a nice change in calistinics for a couple of weeks. 0:28:41.880 --> 0:28:44.200 So yeah, it was mostly just like keeping my heart 0:28:44.240 --> 0:28:47.960 rate up sort of thing, you know, just making sure 0:28:48.000 --> 0:28:52.040 you're still in shape. Yeah, yeah, still ready for the 0:28:52.120 --> 0:28:55.040 next track. Meat. Think of a riot line armed with 0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:59.320 grenade launchers as a kind of gym. Yeah, yeah, I 0:28:59.320 --> 0:29:01.880 mean you were the person I saw reporting about some 0:29:01.960 --> 0:29:05.240 of the stuff that has now been reported in the mainstream, 0:29:05.320 --> 0:29:09.760 specifically the boogaloo stuff. You were the first person I 0:29:09.760 --> 0:29:12.680 saw tweeting about that and saying Jason Wilson and I 0:29:12.720 --> 0:29:15.720 have the Guardian put together big article and the yeah yeah, 0:29:15.760 --> 0:29:18.520 and that was you know, I just noticed a lot 0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:22.040 um and I've noticed this with all the you know, 0:29:22.200 --> 0:29:24.720 uprisings up the past few years, that there is just 0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:28.280 such a huge divide between the way it's reported online 0:29:28.280 --> 0:29:31.000 and the way it's reported on television and in newspapers 0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:34.880 that it feels like generationally we're getting a completely different 0:29:34.880 --> 0:29:38.520 sets of news yeah yeah, and completely different sets of 0:29:38.600 --> 0:29:43.959 realities and um on the right, a lesser extent on 0:29:44.000 --> 0:29:48.120 the left, but on the right a really organized ecosystem 0:29:48.240 --> 0:29:52.000 dedicated to making sure that there are two fundamentally separate realities. 0:29:52.560 --> 0:29:55.960 And that is why one chunk of the country believes Antifa, 0:29:56.040 --> 0:29:58.840 who has never been tied to a single murder, um 0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:02.840 is a terrorist organist station while the terror the domestic 0:30:02.920 --> 0:30:06.200 terrorist responsible for the domestic terror attacks over the last 0:30:06.240 --> 0:30:09.720 six months, UM, which are right wing domestic terrorists, aren't 0:30:09.720 --> 0:30:13.520 a problem. Um Like, it's because the world they live 0:30:13.560 --> 0:30:16.760 in is fundamentally different. Because there was a concerted media 0:30:16.800 --> 0:30:18.800 effort to make sure that that was the case. How 0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:23.480 culpable is Mark Zuckerberg for all of this? Uh, pretty culpable. 0:30:23.600 --> 0:30:25.560 Not for the I mean, obviously, the actual problem with 0:30:25.640 --> 0:30:28.040 like siloing off the right wing to a separate reality 0:30:28.160 --> 0:30:30.800 started way before Mark Zuckerberg, and I don't think he 0:30:30.840 --> 0:30:32.680 was an intentional part of that. I think the thing 0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:36.760 that Mark Zuckerberg deserves blame blame for his Facebook developed 0:30:36.800 --> 0:30:39.920 a system whereby they would recommend Facebook groups to people 0:30:39.920 --> 0:30:42.280 which were closed and siloed off from the rest of 0:30:42.280 --> 0:30:46.760 the world and acted as like radicalization chambers for people. 0:30:47.040 --> 0:30:49.120 And most of the time when people joined even like 0:30:49.200 --> 0:30:52.520 particularly the groups for Facebook's internal numbers suggested that six 0:30:53.320 --> 0:30:56.960 of the time when people joined the Facebook group for 0:30:56.960 --> 0:30:59.920 an extremist organization like the kkkor the prad Boys, sixty 0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:03.160 or percent of the time it was because Facebook's algorithm 0:31:03.240 --> 0:31:06.880 had recommended that group to them. Um, and Zuckerberg was 0:31:06.960 --> 0:31:08.719 one of a number of people at Facebook who were like, 0:31:08.880 --> 0:31:10.720 this isn't a problem. Let's keep doing it. It It makes 0:31:10.760 --> 0:31:13.040 this money, and like that's you know. We can also 0:31:13.040 --> 0:31:15.760 talk about the ethnic cleansing. Facebook is partly culpable in, 0:31:15.880 --> 0:31:19.040 but there's a long list of reasons they suck. It's 0:31:19.080 --> 0:31:22.040 really ironic, I think because like I feel like Facebook's 0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:24.720 uh in general, I mean everybody's still on Facebook, like 0:31:24.720 --> 0:31:26.640 it's the most mainstream thing in the world, but like 0:31:26.920 --> 0:31:29.160 it did have a dip in public trust, I feel 0:31:29.200 --> 0:31:30.640 like in the last couple of years, or at least 0:31:30.720 --> 0:31:33.640 since Cambridge Analytica. But then they like poured all this 0:31:33.760 --> 0:31:37.200 money into advertising in the last year or so, and 0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:40.440 it's all been based on groups. Like all of their 0:31:40.520 --> 0:31:43.440 advertising campaigns have been like Facebook groups is the reason 0:31:43.440 --> 0:31:45.200 to be on Facebook, And it's just like but that's 0:31:45.200 --> 0:31:48.640 actually one of the most problematic parts of it right now. Um, 0:31:48.680 --> 0:31:50.120 they just make it seem like it's all like cat 0:31:50.240 --> 0:31:55.680 enthusiasts and stuff. Yes, well now it's like just clueless 0:31:55.880 --> 0:31:59.840 suburban people is their audience, right, That's like a lot 0:31:59.880 --> 0:32:03.720 of these websites they are just it's like what local 0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:06.160 news used to do, where it just like exists to 0:32:06.280 --> 0:32:10.880 stoke fear. Yeah, you're Onto is a very nice person 0:32:11.040 --> 0:32:14.120 and thinks Black Lives Matter is planning to break into 0:32:14.160 --> 0:32:17.440 her house and and do violence to her because she's white. 0:32:17.600 --> 0:32:21.720 Like it's because like like that's the target audience for Facebook. Yeah, 0:32:21.800 --> 0:32:24.560 and like still refers to what's been going on now 0:32:24.640 --> 0:32:29.360 for three weeks as the riots. Like, Yes, I mean 0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:31.800 I saw some metric that was, like the top ten 0:32:32.000 --> 0:32:34.360 posts on Facebook over the past few weeks, and it 0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:41.080 is all like Ben Shapiro and trauma. And that's consistent too. 0:32:41.120 --> 0:32:43.880 I mean, that isn't that kind of usually the top 0:32:43.920 --> 0:32:48.480 ten trending topics on Facebook. There's a big right wing contingent, 0:32:48.520 --> 0:32:50.680 But it's also weird. Do you guys notice that pretty 0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:53.840 recently on Instagram? I don't think it was always there 0:32:53.920 --> 0:32:56.840 at the bottom it says like brought to you by Facebook. Oh, 0:32:56.960 --> 0:32:59.960 Zuckerberg insisted on that person. But I mean that's kind 0:33:00.920 --> 0:33:04.920 like it's you know, it's hard to like avoid all 0:33:04.960 --> 0:33:07.440 of those. Do we have to divest from all these 0:33:07.440 --> 0:33:12.160 social media companies? It is? It is not dissimilar from like, 0:33:12.240 --> 0:33:14.160 you know, I'm I'm I'm one of those people who 0:33:14.160 --> 0:33:17.320 has has been suggesting, you know, as as cautiously as 0:33:17.360 --> 0:33:21.320 I can, folks who have the have the mental space 0:33:21.360 --> 0:33:24.360 and feel safe, you know, mentally owning a firearm should 0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:26.560 maybe consider it, because it's not great that those are 0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:28.840 all concentrated in the hands of one group of very 0:33:28.880 --> 0:33:31.960 hostile people right now. UM, And there are some problematic 0:33:32.000 --> 0:33:35.280 aspects of purchasing firearms because not all firearms companies, but 0:33:35.320 --> 0:33:38.200 an awful lot of them are part of this horrible 0:33:38.240 --> 0:33:40.040 culture war we're in because of the kind of ads 0:33:40.080 --> 0:33:43.280 that they support in the organizations that they donate money to. UM. 0:33:43.320 --> 0:33:46.080 But at the same time, when someone is trying to 0:33:46.160 --> 0:33:49.640 kill you with a gun, there's no nothing replaces having 0:33:49.680 --> 0:33:51.840 a gun. And in the same way, when you are 0:33:51.880 --> 0:33:55.120 trying to impact the culture and change it and shift 0:33:55.160 --> 0:33:58.560 it in more positive directions, there's really no nothing that 0:33:58.600 --> 0:34:02.720 replaces Twitter and Facebook an instagram. Right, we're admitting Twitter 0:34:02.800 --> 0:34:10.319 as a gun, right, absolutely? I buy into this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:34:10.400 --> 0:34:13.359 Twitter and Facebook are both guns. Facebook is a gun 0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:16.520 that regularly explodes in your hand, and being a blue 0:34:16.600 --> 0:34:23.040 check as bad as having a license. Yeah, it's it's 0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:25.080 I don't know, I don't know how how how deep 0:34:25.120 --> 0:34:27.680 I want to get into the comparison. I mean, I 0:34:27.760 --> 0:34:29.920 think Twitter and Facebook both have the potential to kill 0:34:29.960 --> 0:34:32.359 a lot more people than are fifteens do. That's about 0:34:32.360 --> 0:34:35.200 three people a year in the United States. And um, 0:34:35.680 --> 0:34:38.399 I think there's actually very likely that Facebook kills more 0:34:38.400 --> 0:34:41.400 people a year already than at I just have to 0:34:41.440 --> 0:34:44.000 be the voice on the podcast that says I don't 0:34:44.040 --> 0:34:47.279 think people should get guns. I respect what you're saying completely, 0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:49.440 but I also, I mean, so many people are killed 0:34:49.440 --> 0:34:53.319 by their own guns that I don't know. I'm not 0:34:53.360 --> 0:34:56.759 there yet, but it's a long conversation that has and 0:34:57.080 --> 0:34:59.200 I don't feel the need to like to to argue 0:34:59.239 --> 0:35:02.920 the point as um. But yeah, we all agree who 0:35:02.920 --> 0:35:05.399 shouldn't have guns, and then those are the people who 0:35:05.440 --> 0:35:08.360 tend to have the most guns. That's true, yes, and 0:35:08.400 --> 0:35:12.160 that includes the police, right, That is one of the problems. 0:35:13.239 --> 0:35:16.840 So we wanted to talk about like citizen journalism in general, 0:35:16.840 --> 0:35:19.320 which is taking place on all these platforms like taking 0:35:19.360 --> 0:35:24.399 place on Facebook Live and Instagram and Twitter, um. And 0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:27.080 I mean I've mostly just been aware of it because 0:35:27.320 --> 0:35:30.080 I haven't been super plugged into it until like recent years. 0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:34.640 Like it really feels like it's a completely different animal 0:35:34.719 --> 0:35:37.359 now that you have these live streaming capabilities that are 0:35:37.360 --> 0:35:40.480 on all these sites. Like I mean I remember like 0:35:40.520 --> 0:35:43.239 the first periscope I ever watched and it being like, oh, 0:35:43.320 --> 0:35:45.440 is this the future of how we're going to get information? 0:35:45.680 --> 0:35:50.560 And um, has that been, Like, are there are there 0:35:50.560 --> 0:35:53.600 pluses and minuses to that aside from being on the 0:35:54.360 --> 0:35:58.080 on these platforms that are inherently problematic. Yeah, you know, 0:35:58.360 --> 0:36:00.759 one of the one of the minuses to kind of 0:36:00.800 --> 0:36:03.040 live streaming citizen journalism. I think that is always on 0:36:03.080 --> 0:36:05.319 my mind when I'm I'm working these events, is that, um, 0:36:06.080 --> 0:36:10.160 it's not impossible that your footage will catch someone committing 0:36:10.200 --> 0:36:13.840 something that is against the law um, but not necessarily 0:36:13.880 --> 0:36:17.520 a moral um, and that they will get in legal 0:36:17.560 --> 0:36:19.800 trouble and maybe even go to jail as a result 0:36:19.800 --> 0:36:22.160 of your recording. Now, So that's something that's always in 0:36:22.200 --> 0:36:23.840 my mind. It's part of why I try not to 0:36:23.840 --> 0:36:27.000 to to film, and have increasingly throughout my time in 0:36:27.040 --> 0:36:31.960 the streets tried to avoid filming protesters. Um, sometimes it's necessary, 0:36:32.000 --> 0:36:34.720 like when protesters clash with police and police use violence 0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:36.920 on them, you have to record protesters and police. And 0:36:36.960 --> 0:36:38.600 I do think that the kind of risks for the 0:36:38.600 --> 0:36:42.920 protesters are outweighed by the massive public interest value of 0:36:42.960 --> 0:36:45.520 knowing what the police are doing when they're physically violent 0:36:45.560 --> 0:36:48.920 with protesters. I think that even the the overall safety 0:36:48.960 --> 0:36:51.440 benefit to the protesters is higher. Although it's not without 0:36:51.440 --> 0:36:53.920 a risk. That is something you have to consider when 0:36:53.920 --> 0:36:56.000 you're doing this sort of work. Um, And so you 0:36:56.040 --> 0:36:59.879 have to act consciously to minimize the damage that your 0:37:00.280 --> 0:37:05.279 your reporting could do and maximize the security that it 0:37:05.320 --> 0:37:07.040 will add to the public, because at the end of 0:37:07.080 --> 0:37:11.840 the day, journalism is fundamentally about, um, comforting the afflicted 0:37:11.880 --> 0:37:14.840 and afflicting the comfortable, and you don't want to afflict 0:37:14.880 --> 0:37:18.040 the already afflicted. Yeah. Now, I feel like there's been 0:37:18.080 --> 0:37:22.040 so much more awareness, especially in this most recent wave 0:37:22.080 --> 0:37:24.840 of protests and activism, of of really being aware of 0:37:24.920 --> 0:37:28.520 Nazi like not showing protesters space with people who are 0:37:28.520 --> 0:37:30.680 doing dandalism or anything like that. I feel like people 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:33.759 have really really gotten that message, especially since so many 0:37:33.760 --> 0:37:36.920 people who were involved in the Ferguson protests and other 0:37:37.040 --> 0:37:41.440 protests and after, you know, since since then have been 0:37:41.480 --> 0:37:45.680 you know, suddenly murdered mysteriously or wound up dead, like 0:37:45.719 --> 0:37:49.280 there's a real threat there. Um. And it's not always 0:37:49.320 --> 0:37:52.759 just getting arrested, you know, it's lots of other stuff. Yeah, 0:37:52.800 --> 0:37:56.040 I definitely noticed this time also just because the coverage, 0:37:56.120 --> 0:37:58.799 especially in l A, was so out of tune with 0:37:58.840 --> 0:38:01.680 what was actually happened ing that it was such a 0:38:01.680 --> 0:38:04.080 different world on Twitter than it was in the l 0:38:04.120 --> 0:38:06.959 A Times, for example, which is the only newspaper left 0:38:06.960 --> 0:38:11.600 in l A. Really so um just there was a 0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:15.600 lot of viral videos of police brutality and of police 0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:21.279 assaulting protesters that we're all taken by amateurs, you know, 0:38:21.560 --> 0:38:25.600 or citizen journalists, um And it took a few days 0:38:25.719 --> 0:38:29.440 for those to reach sort of your average newspaper reader, 0:38:30.160 --> 0:38:32.359 you know. I sent my parents a few clips of 0:38:32.400 --> 0:38:35.520 things to be like, here's what's going around with people 0:38:35.560 --> 0:38:39.080 that I know that you know, shows the police are 0:38:39.400 --> 0:38:43.200 tear gassing people even if they say they aren't. There 0:38:43.239 --> 0:38:46.040 was a clip um of in Van nuys when Van 0:38:46.160 --> 0:38:50.880 nuys Um was being looted there was some shop owners 0:38:50.920 --> 0:38:53.400 who called the cops and when the cops arrived, they 0:38:53.400 --> 0:38:55.840 tried to arrest the shop owners because they were black. 0:38:56.640 --> 0:38:58.960 That was on like the local news. That was like 0:38:58.960 --> 0:39:01.640 on the Fox of Philly. It that wasn't even on 0:39:01.760 --> 0:39:05.440 like Unicorn riot. That was somebody because the reporter was 0:39:05.480 --> 0:39:08.880 flagging down the cops right like once it started happening. 0:39:08.880 --> 0:39:11.080 They were just sending people to kind of like capture 0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:13.480 it on the scene and then you would see just 0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:16.040 there were some people who were just completely still trying 0:39:16.040 --> 0:39:18.120 to be in denial even though it was happening, like 0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:20.480 literally right in front of them, you know, who were 0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:23.200 like I just got tear gased. But like I'm sure 0:39:23.239 --> 0:39:26.720 the protesters through a water bottle or something. Yes, well, 0:39:26.760 --> 0:39:29.920 you know, a salt water bottles are really danger to 0:39:30.440 --> 0:39:33.359 police officers. You know. One thing I do think about 0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:35.600 a lot is the continuum of force. And the continuum 0:39:35.640 --> 0:39:37.360 of force is sort of when you're thinking about what 0:39:37.440 --> 0:39:39.879 is legally allowed in self defense, um, what you can 0:39:39.920 --> 0:39:42.120 do in response to someone else's aggression. Because I carry 0:39:42.120 --> 0:39:43.680 a gun pretty much every day in my life. I 0:39:43.719 --> 0:39:46.280 was actually in a situation in the streets recently where 0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:49.080 a young like right wing counter protester like pulled a 0:39:49.080 --> 0:39:52.600 machette and was like threatening marchers with it, and there 0:39:52.680 --> 0:39:55.040 was like and it was the situation where I was like, Okay, 0:39:55.040 --> 0:39:58.160 she's five six ft away, she's not stabbing anybody. What 0:39:58.320 --> 0:40:00.359 is the point at which I'll have to shoot her? Um? 0:40:00.400 --> 0:40:01.960 Because there was a point if she had if she 0:40:02.000 --> 0:40:04.160 had attempted distab people to death, that would have been 0:40:04.200 --> 0:40:07.520 my moral obligation. Um. And it's because lethal force does 0:40:07.640 --> 0:40:10.200 justify the use of lethal force. And so when I 0:40:10.239 --> 0:40:13.160 think about the continuum of force, I think about what 0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:15.400 are the police doing in response to what? And usually 0:40:15.440 --> 0:40:17.920 it is someone chucks water bottles and the police fire 0:40:17.960 --> 0:40:22.560 grenades wildly into a crowd. And were I to respond 0:40:22.600 --> 0:40:25.000 in a similar way to like say, somebody were to 0:40:25.400 --> 0:40:27.759 throw a water bottle at me and I were to 0:40:28.200 --> 0:40:30.520 shoot them or stab them or even punch them, I 0:40:30.520 --> 0:40:33.760 would go to jail. And I should go to jail 0:40:33.800 --> 0:40:38.120 for that, because that would be a wild escalation of force. Right. Well, 0:40:38.160 --> 0:40:41.759 there's there's also like there's no consequences in place. So 0:40:41.880 --> 0:40:44.320 you've you know, we've seen this happening in every city 0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:46.759 that people are like, Oh, it turns out that all 0:40:46.800 --> 0:40:49.160 of the district attorneys are like in the pockets of 0:40:49.200 --> 0:40:52.600 these police unions, and that's why they're not prosecuting any 0:40:52.640 --> 0:40:54.880 of these killer cops. And that's why the killer cops 0:40:55.440 --> 0:41:00.520 have no fear of always escalating in every situation. But 0:41:00.560 --> 0:41:03.840 it was sort of amazing to see, like the cops 0:41:03.840 --> 0:41:07.040 are accused of not de escalating enough, and everybody, just 0:41:07.120 --> 0:41:10.319 like every police force in the country immediately just like 0:41:10.560 --> 0:41:17.279 escalated to military vehicles and yeah, just demonstrating the point, right. 0:41:17.760 --> 0:41:20.960 And even you know, people talk about militarized police, if 0:41:20.960 --> 0:41:23.440 they were militarized in the way that our own military is, 0:41:23.760 --> 0:41:26.040 we might be seeing less violence from them. Because while 0:41:26.080 --> 0:41:28.239 our military has done some really fucked up ship in 0:41:28.239 --> 0:41:30.359 Iraq and Afghanistan, I know a lot of guys who 0:41:30.360 --> 0:41:32.600 were over there and who would have who would deal 0:41:32.640 --> 0:41:35.680 with stuff like kids, you know, slingshotting rocks at them, 0:41:35.800 --> 0:41:39.719 and they weren't allowed to shoot those kids because that 0:41:39.760 --> 0:41:42.520 would be a violation of their rules of engagement. I 0:41:42.560 --> 0:41:45.400 think I think all of these people think they're exercising 0:41:45.480 --> 0:41:48.200 restraint by like just shooting people in the face with 0:41:48.280 --> 0:41:51.080 rubber bullets instead of like shooting them, you know. And 0:41:51.120 --> 0:41:53.279 then you even saw like when Joe Biden was like, oh, 0:41:53.360 --> 0:42:00.279 just shoot them in the legs. That's not it just 0:42:00.400 --> 0:42:03.479 don't don't shoot them. And I mean, you know, people 0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:08.759 have arteries in their legs, Joe. But it has it 0:42:08.800 --> 0:42:11.400 does feel like the veil has been pulled off for 0:42:11.440 --> 0:42:14.480 a lot of people who maybe otherwise did trust in 0:42:14.520 --> 0:42:17.000 the police or didn't think about the way the police 0:42:17.040 --> 0:42:22.040 act around communities of color, and you know, in places 0:42:22.040 --> 0:42:24.279 of poverty, Uh, it feels like a lot of those 0:42:24.280 --> 0:42:28.239 people are like, oh, I cannot deny that. Well, this 0:42:28.320 --> 0:42:30.719 is a question I have actually because I do. I 0:42:30.760 --> 0:42:33.800 think that to a certain degree and in another way, 0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:37.880 like you're talking about, you know, these levels of force. 0:42:38.640 --> 0:42:41.200 And one thing I noticed just from being out at 0:42:41.239 --> 0:42:44.520 protests like not not in violent situations. Although I was 0:42:44.600 --> 0:42:47.880 like kind of in on the Crazy Day and Fairfax 0:42:48.040 --> 0:42:50.399 in l A. Down here, Um, I was there kind 0:42:50.400 --> 0:42:53.239 of right before that really started to get um bad. 0:42:53.360 --> 0:42:56.280 I kind of left the scene. But one thing I noticed, 0:42:56.520 --> 0:42:59.560 especially between that and then later there were a bunch 0:42:59.560 --> 0:43:02.400 of car protests in l A. And I was just 0:43:02.440 --> 0:43:06.799 thinking about both from watching on live streams. Like for 0:43:06.880 --> 0:43:09.839 me as a person who's often been a pedestrian and 0:43:09.960 --> 0:43:14.320 often you know, isn't armed. Um, seeing the amount of forest, 0:43:14.360 --> 0:43:16.799 the amount of armor that was being used against these 0:43:16.800 --> 0:43:20.560 people was really striking to me because I I identified 0:43:20.640 --> 0:43:24.880 with the people who were unarmed and pedestrians. Um. But 0:43:25.000 --> 0:43:29.240 then like when I was in the car protest, which 0:43:29.360 --> 0:43:33.560 was like the least police involvement I had seen thus far, 0:43:33.800 --> 0:43:38.040 even though everybody was driving around and like a weapon essentially, 0:43:38.360 --> 0:43:41.040 like it could have gotten bad, like there was easily 0:43:41.040 --> 0:43:43.399 a way that a car protest could go very, very bad. 0:43:44.120 --> 0:43:47.520 But it was the level of hands offness with the 0:43:47.560 --> 0:43:49.480 cops with that, and that was still pretty early on, 0:43:49.560 --> 0:43:51.239 like they were still kind of cracking down on a 0:43:51.239 --> 0:43:52.879 lot of people. They were not cracking down on that, 0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:55.799 And I was just thinking about, like, like, there's some 0:43:55.880 --> 0:43:58.520 kind of respect for a car that there isn't for 0:43:58.560 --> 0:44:02.160 an unarmed human being, and that was that's I think. 0:44:02.160 --> 0:44:04.839 It's also just harder for them to assault people when 0:44:04.840 --> 0:44:08.200 they're in their cars, is the reality. And so some 0:44:08.280 --> 0:44:10.879 of the car protests I've been at, it's like they 0:44:10.880 --> 0:44:13.760 start just saying they're going to give out tickets for honking, 0:44:14.239 --> 0:44:17.920 you know, they just um find aspects of driving to 0:44:17.960 --> 0:44:20.919 criminalize so that they can say, Okay, if you're here 0:44:21.080 --> 0:44:23.520 and we hear you honk, you know, we're going to 0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:27.640 pull you over and cuff you. And so I guess 0:44:27.680 --> 0:44:30.239 the thing that I was thinking about out of that though, 0:44:30.239 --> 0:44:32.120 it was just that there are some people for whom 0:44:32.120 --> 0:44:34.200 like being in a car, me being in a car 0:44:34.239 --> 0:44:36.560 as as opposed to being a human on a street 0:44:36.560 --> 0:44:40.279 on a sidewalk makes me like more. I don't know, 0:44:40.320 --> 0:44:43.200 it gives me more agency or something or or as 0:44:43.239 --> 0:44:45.320 opposed to like, I don't know, it feels very I 0:44:45.760 --> 0:44:47.400 just started thinking about all this stuff because I'm like, 0:44:48.280 --> 0:44:52.239 people are seeing these videos of police brutality at protests 0:44:52.280 --> 0:44:54.000 on Facebook and stuff, and a lot of them it's 0:44:54.040 --> 0:44:56.520 still not clicking for them. They don't see the imbalance 0:44:56.520 --> 0:45:00.000 of power there um And I don't know, I don't 0:45:00.080 --> 0:45:04.680 know what to do with that information. I mean, there 0:45:04.719 --> 0:45:06.480 there are a lot of people out there who just 0:45:07.200 --> 0:45:10.640 respect power so much that you know, whoever has the 0:45:10.640 --> 0:45:15.040 most force, they are going to respect that. You know. Yeah, 0:45:15.280 --> 0:45:18.480 they respect power because they expect that it will be 0:45:18.600 --> 0:45:22.920 used in their defense. Yes, that's it. And I think 0:45:22.960 --> 0:45:25.560 that one of the things we've seen that has been positive. 0:45:25.640 --> 0:45:28.719 And I don't mean there's a wrong way to take this, 0:45:28.760 --> 0:45:31.360 and I hope people don't. It's good that so many 0:45:31.600 --> 0:45:34.680 traditional liberals have gotten tear gased and assaulted by the 0:45:34.680 --> 0:45:37.279 police over the last couple of weeks because now they 0:45:37.400 --> 0:45:40.279 understand the reality of the problem for sure. And I 0:45:40.280 --> 0:45:42.720 mean I've heard other people say that and and mentioned 0:45:42.800 --> 0:45:45.760 Kent State and say that Kent State was very radicalizing 0:45:45.960 --> 0:45:48.560 for like white people in America because it was like 0:45:49.000 --> 0:45:51.880 white kids in a college campus getting tear gas instead 0:45:51.920 --> 0:45:54.840 of just you know, civil rights protesters. That had a 0:45:54.880 --> 0:45:59.000 different effect on them because they're racist. Yeah. I mean 0:45:59.120 --> 0:46:02.279 so many people I know and people's parents who the 0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:09.160 man in Buffalo, I'm blanking on his name, right, that 0:46:09.320 --> 0:46:14.440 is the anti operative, Yes, Michael Like he was like 0:46:14.480 --> 0:46:16.640 some seventy five year old guy in Buffalo, Like and 0:46:16.840 --> 0:46:19.160 he was like, you know, a leftist or whatever, but 0:46:19.360 --> 0:46:22.839 obviously an elderly man. And that actually was a thing 0:46:22.880 --> 0:46:25.719 that a lot of people's parents in that generation, I 0:46:25.760 --> 0:46:28.400 know that kind of flipped them. It was also the 0:46:28.440 --> 0:46:31.879 denial of what we could see on camera I think 0:46:31.920 --> 0:46:34.239 was very jolting for people. So he just fell. We 0:46:34.280 --> 0:46:38.040 didn't push him. I mean, it was such a microposma 0:46:39.520 --> 0:46:42.640 we saw it. But I think that the like, you know, 0:46:42.719 --> 0:46:46.240 because being from l A, it's like when the Rodney 0:46:46.320 --> 0:46:49.480 King tape came out, there was this feeling of like, 0:46:49.600 --> 0:46:52.640 if these things are videotaped, they cannot be denied. If 0:46:52.640 --> 0:46:55.719 you see the cops beating an unarmed black man for 0:46:55.760 --> 0:46:59.200 no reason, you will have to acknowledge that they do that. 0:46:59.480 --> 0:47:02.520 And that's you know, they're objective. It's not an accident, 0:47:03.040 --> 0:47:05.319 and there were still so many people who were just like, 0:47:05.840 --> 0:47:07.960 I'm going to choose to see what I want to see, 0:47:08.080 --> 0:47:11.400 or just like I'm gonna say whatever I want to 0:47:11.480 --> 0:47:14.880 have happened in this video happened. Um. And that's definitely 0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:17.040 still some people on the right, I feel like at 0:47:17.040 --> 0:47:18.920 this point or they just like to see leftists get 0:47:18.920 --> 0:47:22.799 the ship kicked out of them. Yep. Yeah, I think 0:47:22.800 --> 0:47:24.400 that's a lot of it. I think it is. You know, 0:47:24.600 --> 0:47:27.680 we talked about this on behind the police, um, policing 0:47:27.719 --> 0:47:30.319 in America from the very beginning before they're even like 0:47:30.400 --> 0:47:32.520 at the very start of the first police departments in 0:47:32.560 --> 0:47:35.640 this country. Um. The big part of the desire to 0:47:35.760 --> 0:47:38.320 have them among people who weren't rich was a desire 0:47:38.400 --> 0:47:44.440 to have what historians referred to as designated vigilantes. Um. Yeah. 0:47:44.480 --> 0:47:46.239 And that's why I think how a lot of people 0:47:46.239 --> 0:47:48.520 who are okay with the violence against left wing demonstrators, 0:47:48.520 --> 0:47:50.840 that's what they see. These people are bad because I 0:47:50.840 --> 0:47:53.600 don't like them, and I want someone with the power 0:47:53.600 --> 0:47:57.719 of the state to physically harm them. Um. Yeah, it's 0:47:57.719 --> 0:48:02.640 cool and good. Well, we got a bunch of calls 0:48:02.760 --> 0:48:05.719 for you, Robert um Let everybody know on Twitter that 0:48:05.719 --> 0:48:07.560 you're gonna be on the show. So if you want 0:48:07.600 --> 0:48:11.920 to get into some of those yes, So this is 0:48:12.040 --> 0:48:15.799 a text message for you, Robert. The National Alliance neo 0:48:15.880 --> 0:48:18.600 Nazi group is dropping leaflets in my city. What should 0:48:18.600 --> 0:48:22.640 I do about it? Oh boy? UM, Well, there's a 0:48:22.640 --> 0:48:24.160 couple of things. One of them would be trying to 0:48:24.239 --> 0:48:27.319 identify the individuals actually putting out the leaflets, which is, 0:48:27.440 --> 0:48:30.040 you know, a mix of sort of surveillance and detective work. 0:48:30.040 --> 0:48:32.399 But ultimately that will be the most useful thing to do, 0:48:32.640 --> 0:48:34.920 is identify these individuals. So they do have to be 0:48:34.920 --> 0:48:37.839 connected and so many for example, businesses connected to them 0:48:37.880 --> 0:48:41.920 have to be connected with the actions being taken undertaken UM. 0:48:41.960 --> 0:48:44.640 Another thing would be counter messaging, so potentially putting out 0:48:44.640 --> 0:48:48.080 other leaflets UM warning people about what the National Alliances, 0:48:48.160 --> 0:48:51.400 It's history, the terrorism that it's inspired. UM. I do 0:48:51.480 --> 0:48:55.080 think kind of a two part response is justified. UM. 0:48:55.320 --> 0:49:00.480 Another thing might be UM getting UM informing UM the 0:49:00.520 --> 0:49:04.279 FBI of what's going on UM, because they do care 0:49:04.360 --> 0:49:07.319 more about this sort of thing than UM. Other law 0:49:07.400 --> 0:49:10.240 enforcement agencies tend to. UM. I would put that lowest 0:49:10.280 --> 0:49:12.879 on the list of priorities. First is figuring out who 0:49:12.920 --> 0:49:15.520 the who the hell is responsible and publicizing that as 0:49:15.560 --> 0:49:18.640 widely as you can um. Second is counter messaging, and 0:49:18.680 --> 0:49:20.960 third would be maybe given a heads up to federal 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:23.680 law enforcement. What's happening? Can I ask a follow up 0:49:23.680 --> 0:49:27.880 on this? If if you're afraid of someone retaliating against 0:49:27.920 --> 0:49:30.359 you for you know, outing them as having done this 0:49:30.480 --> 0:49:32.920 or whatever, what kind of ways can you do? Can 0:49:32.960 --> 0:49:36.120 you disseminate that information without making yourself a target? I'm 0:49:36.120 --> 0:49:38.319 going to tell you right now, UM, let me look 0:49:38.360 --> 0:49:40.640 up exactly what his handle is. There's a number of 0:49:40.719 --> 0:49:43.160 us you know you can reach out to on on Twitter. 0:49:43.360 --> 0:49:47.680 But the the there are anti fascist researchers who spend 0:49:47.719 --> 0:49:50.840 a lot of their their lives doing this sort of work, 0:49:50.960 --> 0:49:54.840 and you should uh reach out to some of them, um, 0:49:54.880 --> 0:49:58.319 because they'll they have large followings already and will help 0:49:58.360 --> 0:50:00.799 you get this information out. One person to consider is 0:50:01.080 --> 0:50:05.520 anti fash Gordon, like Flash Gordon, but anti fash Um 0:50:05.920 --> 0:50:09.319 Gordon is a very experienced activist with the sort of thing. 0:50:09.320 --> 0:50:11.000 He does a lot of open source intel, so he 0:50:11.040 --> 0:50:13.560 could not only disseminate the information, he can double check 0:50:13.600 --> 0:50:15.759 it to make sure You've gotten the right guy. Uh, 0:50:15.800 --> 0:50:17.799 And I know Gordon would be very happy to do 0:50:18.400 --> 0:50:21.319 um this that sort of to help with something like that. 0:50:21.360 --> 0:50:24.880 Another person to maybe reach out to would be Daniel Harper. Um. 0:50:25.520 --> 0:50:28.120 Daniel is a podcast called I Don't Speak German, which 0:50:28.160 --> 0:50:32.120 is a history which is like histories of individuals who 0:50:32.160 --> 0:50:37.680 are uh like really significant within the modern fascist movement. Um. 0:50:37.719 --> 0:50:40.759 So those would be like two people. Uh and he's 0:50:40.840 --> 0:50:43.680 at Daniel E. Harper on Twitter. Those are two individuals 0:50:43.719 --> 0:50:45.920 I was just reaching out to for maybe help with that. 0:50:46.440 --> 0:50:48.400 I feel like if I was on a college campus 0:50:48.520 --> 0:50:50.880 right now, if this was kind of stuff was going around, 0:50:50.920 --> 0:50:53.640 for example, I would like invest in a roll of 0:50:53.680 --> 0:50:57.440 stickers and like bright neon pink that just say fascist 0:50:58.440 --> 0:51:04.040 and a lot of money everything. I don't know. I 0:51:04.080 --> 0:51:07.719 have a friend who lives in a small community and 0:51:08.120 --> 0:51:11.160 they had a similar question like this, and I had 0:51:11.200 --> 0:51:13.000 no idea how to answer it. It's really helpful to 0:51:13.040 --> 0:51:15.120 know that there are people who can help out with 0:51:15.120 --> 0:51:17.719 that because I know that, especially like in in smaller 0:51:18.040 --> 0:51:20.759 areas where it's so easy to know, you know, if 0:51:20.880 --> 0:51:22.799 I post like, oh so and so is doing this 0:51:22.880 --> 0:51:25.560 very opposed to picture or whatever then you obviously these 0:51:25.560 --> 0:51:28.719 people are violent and scary, so that's really thank you 0:51:28.760 --> 0:51:31.120 so much. That's a great service. Yeah, And in general, 0:51:31.120 --> 0:51:34.200 if there's like a local kind of ANTIPA collective around you, 0:51:34.200 --> 0:51:39.400 you know there's there are individual like city and state organizations, 0:51:39.400 --> 0:51:41.960 you might consider reaching out to them as well, um, 0:51:42.000 --> 0:51:44.920 because they might, they might. They generally have experience doing 0:51:44.920 --> 0:51:48.719 that kind of research work and disseminating that information. So yeah, 0:51:49.080 --> 0:51:52.280 is this where we publicly announced our affiliation with antiphon 0:51:52.440 --> 0:51:55.960 night call? I don't think anyone had any doubt about 0:51:56.000 --> 0:52:00.759 that membership in a terrorist organization. Yes, yes, come find us. 0:52:01.480 --> 0:52:05.600 Let's do another question. This is about emergency rations. Hi, 0:52:05.719 --> 0:52:08.480 my name is Dominic. I'm calling with the question for 0:52:08.680 --> 0:52:13.440 Robert Evans. I appriciently started to uh prepare for food 0:52:14.040 --> 0:52:16.800 and emergency supply, but I live in a small department 0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:19.360 and I wanted to get his opinion on what is 0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:22.840 the best way to store large amounts of water in 0:52:22.920 --> 0:52:26.520 a small area a lot of storage. Yeah, you know, 0:52:26.560 --> 0:52:30.359 there's no perfect answer to that, my because obviously, like 0:52:31.160 --> 0:52:35.120 water takes up a set amount of space, right, there's 0:52:35.120 --> 0:52:37.319 no way to make water take up less space because 0:52:37.360 --> 0:52:41.520 it is water UM. You know you UM. What I 0:52:41.520 --> 0:52:43.959 would recommend and what I myself do is I keep 0:52:44.120 --> 0:52:46.400 what is about a two week assuming about a gallon 0:52:46.480 --> 0:52:49.320 a day gallon and a half a day of water UM. 0:52:49.560 --> 0:52:52.879 I keep about a two week supply of water on hand. 0:52:52.920 --> 0:52:54.600 Actually minds more like four because I have a little 0:52:54.640 --> 0:52:56.359 bit more space in my yard, but about a two 0:52:56.360 --> 0:52:59.000 week supply of water. And then what you should focus 0:52:59.000 --> 0:53:02.880 on is having a mix of water purification tablets UM, 0:53:03.040 --> 0:53:05.759 something like AH I forget the name here, but one 0:53:05.800 --> 0:53:08.239 of those like ultra violet wands that they use that 0:53:08.280 --> 0:53:10.919 you can use in the field to sterilize water UM 0:53:11.040 --> 0:53:15.200 and pump activated hand like hand pump activated water filters UM. 0:53:15.239 --> 0:53:16.959 You know you can get all three, and you could 0:53:17.040 --> 0:53:18.880 keep a significant amount. You can keep all three in 0:53:18.920 --> 0:53:22.440 a significant including a significant amount of water purification tablets 0:53:22.560 --> 0:53:25.359 in a shoe box, and have what would be necessary 0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:30.000 to to filter thousands of gallons of water UM on hand. 0:53:30.360 --> 0:53:32.799 So you know you can only store so much. Two 0:53:32.800 --> 0:53:34.839 weeks is generally a good amount. Pretty much everyone has 0:53:34.920 --> 0:53:36.960 enough space for a two weeks storage supply of water. 0:53:37.000 --> 0:53:40.080 Get a couple of fifteen gallon UM jugs UM, and 0:53:40.120 --> 0:53:43.440 then focus on being able to purify and treat water. 0:53:43.960 --> 0:53:47.560 That's a good call. That that's what I would recommend. Yeah. 0:53:47.640 --> 0:53:50.040 And just for our listeners who might not know why 0:53:50.120 --> 0:53:53.759 you might want to do such a thing, Uh, just 0:53:53.840 --> 0:53:57.239 still listen. Yeah. Think about back when the pandemic hit 0:53:57.400 --> 0:53:59.719 and suddenly stuff like toilet paper that you've never had 0:53:59.719 --> 0:54:01.600 a problem getting before and never had to think about 0:54:01.600 --> 0:54:03.680 it was hard to get. Um. Thankfully, that was just 0:54:03.680 --> 0:54:06.840 toilet paper, and there's alternatives to toilet paper. Um. And 0:54:06.880 --> 0:54:10.640 it's not a thing that you need to survive, um, thankfully. 0:54:10.800 --> 0:54:12.960 While we did have shortages of different food stuffs and 0:54:12.960 --> 0:54:15.319 we're still going through those, nothing that was needed for 0:54:15.400 --> 0:54:20.040 basic survival was unavailable. Um. But also things that we 0:54:20.120 --> 0:54:23.160 never thought we wouldn't be able to get were unavailable. 0:54:23.600 --> 0:54:26.920 And that should make you realize things that you do 0:54:27.040 --> 0:54:30.600 need to survive could be made unavailable very suddenly. Yeah. 0:54:30.640 --> 0:54:32.600 I mean I bought a grip of water the last 0:54:32.640 --> 0:54:35.080 time there was a little earthquake because I was like, oh, 0:54:35.080 --> 0:54:37.200 I should have so much water in case there's a 0:54:37.239 --> 0:54:40.320 big earthquake, and then I have drank it all during 0:54:40.360 --> 0:54:44.200 the pandemic. Yeah. And I'm not advocating stockpiling years worth 0:54:44.200 --> 0:54:45.960 of supplies and a bunker, because I don't think that 0:54:45.960 --> 0:54:49.280 actually gets you much security. You should have enough two 0:54:49.320 --> 0:54:52.799 to four week supply of food and water is a 0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:55.319 good idea for everyone in this country, and it's something 0:54:55.360 --> 0:54:57.399 that you can build up over a period of time 0:54:57.440 --> 0:55:00.000 without spending a huge amount of money. I would say, 0:55:00.000 --> 0:55:04.760 actually for people who live in natural disaster prone areas, uh, 0:55:05.320 --> 0:55:09.600 such as Los Angeles or uh did you guys make 0:55:09.640 --> 0:55:13.360 me want to dan X? Right? Well, you know the 0:55:13.480 --> 0:55:18.080 XANAX preparation is the xanax. Just staring at staring at 0:55:18.120 --> 0:55:20.719 that stuff, though, I think would decrease my quality of 0:55:20.719 --> 0:55:23.480 I'm gonna do it. You You've clearly scared the ship 0:55:23.560 --> 0:55:25.279 out of me. I'm gonna do it. But can I 0:55:25.280 --> 0:55:30.000 tell you something really funny? Actually, during the uprising, Sharon 0:55:30.080 --> 0:55:33.200 Stone posted this crazy like how to build a safe 0:55:33.239 --> 0:55:36.640 room thing because, like a lot of rich white people 0:55:36.680 --> 0:55:38.400 in l A, she was afraid people were going to 0:55:38.640 --> 0:55:43.719 come directly to her house to loot it. I'm gonna 0:55:43.760 --> 0:55:46.000 be honest here, yeah, we all, we all were gonna loot. 0:55:46.040 --> 0:55:49.359 Sharon at a Santa's checklist, and she was number one. 0:55:49.640 --> 0:55:52.000 At first, I thought she was offering a safe house, 0:55:52.040 --> 0:55:54.239 and then I was like, oh no, she's saying here's 0:55:54.239 --> 0:55:56.640 how to like build a panic room. But one of 0:55:56.680 --> 0:55:58.400 the things she said was make sure you have a 0:55:58.400 --> 0:56:03.320 supply of water, and Zanna, yeah, yeah, in a panic 0:56:03.400 --> 0:56:05.480 room is not going to increase your safety in any 0:56:05.520 --> 0:56:08.120 meaningful way. I'm not. I don't need to get into 0:56:08.120 --> 0:56:10.000 detail of what people who really wanted to harm you 0:56:10.000 --> 0:56:11.880 could do to a panic room. There's two things that 0:56:11.880 --> 0:56:14.560 will increase your safety. One is having enough of a 0:56:14.600 --> 0:56:17.440 supply of basic necessities that you don't need to panic, right, 0:56:17.680 --> 0:56:19.640 that's the goal. The goal is not to panic and 0:56:19.680 --> 0:56:22.080 buy supplies. The goal is that if something bad happens, 0:56:22.320 --> 0:56:23.840 you don't have to go out and contribute to the 0:56:23.840 --> 0:56:25.759 panic cause you're like, well, no, I'm good, I have food, 0:56:25.760 --> 0:56:27.879 I have water, I have toilet paper, Like I made 0:56:27.920 --> 0:56:29.960 sure that I was prepared a while ago. I can 0:56:30.000 --> 0:56:32.680 just sort of set this out. The other aspect of 0:56:32.719 --> 0:56:37.440 takeing of of true security UM is building ties with 0:56:37.480 --> 0:56:40.680 a community of people around you that you can rely 0:56:40.840 --> 0:56:43.520 on if things get really bad and you need to, 0:56:43.880 --> 0:56:46.480 Because the only real security that exists for any of 0:56:46.560 --> 0:56:49.719 us is communal securities. Community security. That's the only real 0:56:49.760 --> 0:56:53.120 self defense totally. And I think we've been seeing how 0:56:53.640 --> 0:56:56.600 as people realize that maybe the networks that are supposed 0:56:56.600 --> 0:56:59.880 to protect them are actually just harmful, that you do 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:03.600 have to build counter networks of mutual aid. Luckily, we 0:57:03.680 --> 0:57:08.000 all got a weird three month crash course in how 0:57:08.040 --> 0:57:12.520 everybody is interconnected and needs to help each other before uh, 0:57:12.920 --> 0:57:14.719 we really had to team up and help each other. 0:57:15.000 --> 0:57:17.480 But look out, guys, because Facebook is going to steal 0:57:17.560 --> 0:57:20.320 all of this to further advertise for groups they're like. 0:57:20.440 --> 0:57:26.439 Even the anti FA podcasters say that community is important. See, yeah, 0:57:26.480 --> 0:57:30.120 you use signal signal. This is gonna be my my 0:57:30.240 --> 0:57:34.920 free spawn for signal right now. Mutual aid collaborative slash 0:57:35.200 --> 0:57:38.640 citizens self defense moist Robert when Trump, When Trump posted 0:57:38.720 --> 0:57:41.800 a Facebook ad that had an upside down red triangle, 0:57:42.800 --> 0:57:48.520 didn't you post eighty eight of them? Wait? What I 0:57:48.560 --> 0:57:51.600 didn't catch that part of it was the upside down 0:57:51.640 --> 0:57:57.240 red triangle supposed to represent Antifa or anti Antifa. Well, 0:57:57.280 --> 0:57:59.920 it was the upside down red triangle. The reason people 0:58:00.080 --> 0:58:03.200 flipped out rightly about that is that in Nazi Germany, 0:58:03.800 --> 0:58:06.280 when you were put in a concentration camp, your your 0:58:06.320 --> 0:58:08.920 little uniform, the little jumpsuit or whatever they gave you 0:58:09.480 --> 0:58:12.680 would have a triangle patch on it that was color 0:58:12.760 --> 0:58:15.080 coded to why you were in the concentration camp. So, 0:58:15.120 --> 0:58:20.080 for example, homosexuals had a pink triangle, and communists, social democrats, 0:58:20.080 --> 0:58:23.480 and anarchists got a red triangle. UM. And so when 0:58:23.520 --> 0:58:26.480 he posted a red triangle with no sort of commentary 0:58:26.560 --> 0:58:29.520 on his ad calling for violence against Antifa, a lot 0:58:29.560 --> 0:58:32.400 of people, including myself were like someone in I don't 0:58:32.400 --> 0:58:34.120 think Trump knew it it meant, but I think somebody 0:58:34.160 --> 0:58:36.440 within the administration who was you know, maybe it might 0:58:36.440 --> 0:58:37.840 have been as low as an intern, who knows, but 0:58:37.960 --> 0:58:40.600 somebody who was working on the social media team knew 0:58:40.600 --> 0:58:43.480 what they were signaling UM, and knew both that it 0:58:43.480 --> 0:58:46.040 would serve as a way for them to intimidate and 0:58:46.160 --> 0:58:49.160 frighten left wing people, but also would serve as a 0:58:49.200 --> 0:58:52.200 way to kind of uh draw up like a panic 0:58:52.240 --> 0:58:54.600 among the left, and when the ads got pulled, that 0:58:54.680 --> 0:58:58.440 panic would provide full or like free advertising to the campaign. Like, 0:58:58.480 --> 0:59:01.640 I think there's probably both both lines of thinking occurred 0:59:01.680 --> 0:59:03.920 in it. UM. I do think it's as likely a 0:59:04.000 --> 0:59:06.280 statement of kind of desperation, right now as it is 0:59:06.320 --> 0:59:08.520 a power though, just because things have not been going 0:59:08.680 --> 0:59:12.840 great for the right wing in the last couple of weeks, 0:59:12.880 --> 0:59:16.760 I think they are on the back foot at the moment. Yeah. Um. 0:59:16.800 --> 0:59:19.960 I had a hoodie from the indie rock label Kill 0:59:20.080 --> 0:59:23.920 Rock Stars that had a yellow star on the breast, 0:59:24.480 --> 0:59:27.080 and I wore it once in front of my grandfather 0:59:28.720 --> 0:59:31.520 escaped from the Holocaust, and he was like, Hey, I 0:59:31.600 --> 0:59:35.200 don't like that because it reminds me of this other thing. 0:59:35.280 --> 0:59:38.479 And then I didn't wear it anymore because that made 0:59:38.480 --> 0:59:41.640 me be like, maybe you can't actually appropriate these things 0:59:41.720 --> 0:59:45.360 yet they're always but it does seem like all sort 0:59:45.400 --> 0:59:48.720 of the greatest hits of like hateful iconography are coming back. 0:59:49.080 --> 0:59:54.320 You think that is a last gasp attempt to retain control. Oh, 0:59:54.400 --> 0:59:57.360 we don't know. It's kind of our responsibility to ensure 0:59:57.400 --> 1:00:00.480 that it is, like, that's our job is to make 1:00:00.520 --> 1:00:03.160 it be a last gasp. But that's not a guarantee. 1:00:03.560 --> 1:00:06.720 That's the thing you have to fight to ensure. It 1:00:06.800 --> 1:00:09.040 does feel more like gesturing, and that kind of thing 1:00:09.080 --> 1:00:12.600 feels more like gesturing in it at power than actual power. 1:00:13.240 --> 1:00:16.800 But who knows. You know, this is a long way 1:00:16.840 --> 1:00:21.000 before the election, if we even get one. So yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:00:21.000 --> 1:00:26.040 it's early days yet, anything could happen. Um. Yeah, I'm 1:00:26.040 --> 1:00:29.040 going to hit you with another question from a listener. Sure, Hey, 1:00:29.080 --> 1:00:33.400 I have a question for Robert Ovans. Um. I listened 1:00:33.400 --> 1:00:35.960 to your podcast It could happen here, and it was 1:00:36.000 --> 1:00:39.400 particularly alarmed at the episode where you talked about how 1:00:39.640 --> 1:00:43.920 UM in certain states, like rural Americans could potentially choke 1:00:44.120 --> 1:00:47.200 the water into the supply. And I was just wondering, 1:00:47.360 --> 1:00:50.960 in your worst case civil worth scenario, UM, is there 1:00:51.000 --> 1:00:54.120 a particular state or even a particular city you think 1:00:54.200 --> 1:00:57.840 would be a terrible, particularly terrible place to be in 1:00:58.400 --> 1:01:01.080 because a lot of friends just like looking to move 1:01:01.120 --> 1:01:04.680 out of the city in New York, and UH would 1:01:04.720 --> 1:01:07.919 would love to tell them where you're clear of just 1:01:08.120 --> 1:01:15.760 in case it was a chipper chipper question, very dark, like, yeah, 1:01:15.800 --> 1:01:20.160 there's no great place to be if things go really badly. Um, 1:01:20.200 --> 1:01:22.680 there's aspects of living out in the country that are safer, 1:01:22.720 --> 1:01:26.560 but you're also very vulnerable to you know, uh, roving 1:01:26.640 --> 1:01:29.280 groups of of gangs or death squads already want to 1:01:29.320 --> 1:01:31.160 call them. There's been cases in like South America where 1:01:31.200 --> 1:01:33.880 economies have collapsed and like people who had the resources 1:01:34.160 --> 1:01:37.840 retreated to compounds in rural areas that they thought were safe, 1:01:37.920 --> 1:01:40.520 and then large groups of people would just kill them 1:01:40.520 --> 1:01:43.120 and take their stuff. And obviously there's dangerous of being 1:01:43.120 --> 1:01:45.040 in a city, including the fact that a lot of 1:01:45.040 --> 1:01:47.960 cities don't have access to um as much water as 1:01:47.960 --> 1:01:50.360 people think. If there's some damage to the infrastructure and 1:01:50.400 --> 1:01:53.080 food and like, but there's also a form of safety 1:01:53.120 --> 1:01:55.080 that comes from being around a lot of people who 1:01:55.120 --> 1:01:59.720 generally in cities, folks are less uh prime to the 1:01:59.800 --> 1:02:02.600 kind to like violent bigotry that is more common out 1:02:02.600 --> 1:02:05.520 in the middle of nowhere. So there's the answer is 1:02:05.520 --> 1:02:07.360 that there's no perfect place to be and that the 1:02:07.360 --> 1:02:11.440 best thing to do is work actively to stop the 1:02:11.520 --> 1:02:15.400 ship from going down. Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say 1:02:15.480 --> 1:02:19.200 some of that's already happening in places like Flint, Michigan, 1:02:19.600 --> 1:02:23.440 where the governor Rick Snyder, who like is a total fascist, 1:02:23.960 --> 1:02:28.400 choked the water supply, like specifically to poor black parts 1:02:28.400 --> 1:02:32.600 of Michigan um And I interviewed an activist from there 1:02:32.600 --> 1:02:34.600 a couple of years ago, and just hearing her talk 1:02:34.640 --> 1:02:37.880 about that and about water scarcity and like clean air 1:02:37.880 --> 1:02:42.480 scarcity becoming the big issue. Um. It has felt to 1:02:42.520 --> 1:02:45.600 me since then like she was just sort of like speaking. 1:02:45.640 --> 1:02:48.040 You know, they're already in the future there, and with 1:02:48.160 --> 1:02:51.600 things like Standing Rock too, right, what can people do 1:02:51.800 --> 1:02:54.720 to like, what can people do to stop them from 1:02:54.840 --> 1:03:00.680 drilling everything and destroying everything? Are we going to have to, like, uh, 1:03:00.800 --> 1:03:04.480 you know, put ourselves in front of bulldozers in the 1:03:04.520 --> 1:03:09.080 Appalachian Forest? Yeah? Sometimes, Um, you know, obviously the that 1:03:09.240 --> 1:03:13.320 kind of work well valuable, Um, isn't the long term solution. 1:03:13.560 --> 1:03:18.120 The long term solution is fundamentally changing aspects of how 1:03:18.480 --> 1:03:21.720 not just energy extraction works, not just how energy generation works, 1:03:21.960 --> 1:03:25.760 but how capital works and capital's relationship to to politics 1:03:25.760 --> 1:03:28.800 in our society. Um. But in the short term, yeah, 1:03:28.800 --> 1:03:30.200 sometimes people are gonna have to get in front of 1:03:30.240 --> 1:03:34.160 some fucking bulldozers. Um. You know. Uh, it is worth 1:03:34.240 --> 1:03:38.000 noting that. I think that there's a decent chance. Obviously, 1:03:38.360 --> 1:03:41.040 the violence and Standing Rock happened under Obama. There was 1:03:41.080 --> 1:03:43.200 some evidence that they were pulling back from forcing the 1:03:43.240 --> 1:03:46.640 pipeline forward when Trump got elected, and he definitely forced 1:03:46.640 --> 1:03:48.800 it through. It's impossible to say it would have happened 1:03:48.880 --> 1:03:52.160 or not under President Clinton. I think we would have 1:03:52.160 --> 1:03:55.240 had a better chance of actually stopping the pipeline. Um. 1:03:55.360 --> 1:03:58.240 I don't think she was particularly gave a ship about 1:03:58.240 --> 1:04:01.200 whether or not the pipeline happened. But in general, Democrats, 1:04:01.640 --> 1:04:04.360 when you yell at them, um, and you're on the 1:04:04.480 --> 1:04:07.080 left or the right, are a little bit you know 1:04:07.120 --> 1:04:09.280 there was is uh so like you can get them 1:04:09.280 --> 1:04:12.120 to do ship, you can shame them into action if 1:04:12.160 --> 1:04:15.360 nothing else. Yeah, I mean all we all we do 1:04:15.520 --> 1:04:17.920 is like shame or local politicians, and they seem to 1:04:17.960 --> 1:04:21.960 have like no reserves of shame whatsoever. They're just all 1:04:22.520 --> 1:04:25.520 you know, so in the drink. That's the thing is that, 1:04:25.680 --> 1:04:28.560 like I think as far as election and elections go, 1:04:28.840 --> 1:04:31.680 like it, it would be great if we had a 1:04:31.720 --> 1:04:35.080 candidate for any office. It's like, yeah, we love this person. 1:04:35.160 --> 1:04:38.280 But it's much more like useful and probably possible to 1:04:38.360 --> 1:04:42.720 have somebody that you can just like brate into No. 1:04:43.000 --> 1:04:46.080 And I have felt like very heartened by the amounts 1:04:46.080 --> 1:04:48.320 of people that have been turning out for all kinds 1:04:48.360 --> 1:04:52.760 of things, um, to protect the more vulnerable people. You know. 1:04:53.000 --> 1:04:57.240 I have seen people stand in front of some bulldozers 1:04:57.280 --> 1:05:02.240 to keep homeless encampments from being raised. And it feels 1:05:02.320 --> 1:05:06.000 like everybody is paying attention to you know, that to 1:05:06.080 --> 1:05:08.560 the way that the cops have always treated on how 1:05:08.720 --> 1:05:11.800 people in l A is how they are treating everybody. 1:05:11.840 --> 1:05:15.440 Now people are seeing how they are when you are. 1:05:15.520 --> 1:05:19.960 When you are confronting fascism. The only remedy to force 1:05:20.360 --> 1:05:23.000 is force. Now that doesn't mean you have to violently 1:05:23.040 --> 1:05:25.360 attack them, but putting your body in front of a 1:05:25.400 --> 1:05:28.280 bulldozer is a type of force that is exhibiting, That 1:05:28.400 --> 1:05:31.840 is exerting force in the real world. Just like confronting 1:05:31.840 --> 1:05:33.720 a riot line, even if your plan is not to 1:05:33.800 --> 1:05:36.160 physically harm those officers, it's a stand arm in arm 1:05:36.200 --> 1:05:39.920 and make them beat you. You are exerting force in 1:05:39.960 --> 1:05:44.200 the world. Um And force is the only language. Fascism understands. 1:05:44.760 --> 1:05:46.400 Um and one way or the other, that's the only 1:05:46.400 --> 1:05:48.600 thing that gets us out of this. You know. Maybe 1:05:48.640 --> 1:05:50.600 it is the force of keeping enough people out in 1:05:50.600 --> 1:05:54.240 the streets long enough for months that we scare them 1:05:54.240 --> 1:05:57.080 back into their little holes, and we win a democratic 1:05:57.120 --> 1:06:00.600 election and we start to dismantle some of the structures 1:06:00.600 --> 1:06:02.600 that allowed things to get this bad in the first place. 1:06:02.840 --> 1:06:06.320 Maybe that's the solution, but it starts where it already is. 1:06:06.400 --> 1:06:09.760 Right now with this uprising, which is people exerting their 1:06:09.840 --> 1:06:12.840 force as a mass in the street because there are 1:06:12.880 --> 1:06:17.160 more of us than there are of them. Yeah, like 1:06:19.480 --> 1:06:24.800 please say, we're scared. Yeah, I think. I mean, you know, 1:06:24.880 --> 1:06:27.280 I haven't. This is the most optimistic I've been about 1:06:27.320 --> 1:06:29.760 our chances to win in a long time. Actually, um, 1:06:29.840 --> 1:06:32.240 because it does seem like a lot of people are 1:06:32.280 --> 1:06:38.040 finally getting it in a way that they haven't. That like, oh, 1:06:38.120 --> 1:06:42.640 ship's completely fucked, and like I have to go kind 1:06:42.640 --> 1:06:46.120 of risk my life a bit to unfunck it. Right. Uh, 1:06:46.160 --> 1:06:49.080 there's a great you know quote from my favorite problematic 1:06:49.080 --> 1:06:52.560 white man Hunter Thompson. Um, in democracy, you have to 1:06:52.560 --> 1:06:55.760 be a player, and that that that if we want 1:06:55.760 --> 1:06:59.840 a democracy, we have to play. And that playing isn't voting. 1:07:00.280 --> 1:07:05.600 Playing is using force. Um, the kind of force, you know, 1:07:05.720 --> 1:07:09.080 non violent force, I advocate, but force, and that that 1:07:09.200 --> 1:07:11.360 is what we have to be doing for sure. And 1:07:11.360 --> 1:07:13.480 I think the force of a big group of people 1:07:13.520 --> 1:07:17.880 showing up places is very powerful. And again, you know, 1:07:17.960 --> 1:07:20.800 when when the people I was with stopped the bulldozer, 1:07:21.200 --> 1:07:24.200 they all like sat in front of it peacefully, And 1:07:24.240 --> 1:07:26.840 I think people were just as confused as anything else 1:07:27.040 --> 1:07:30.880 you know, um, yeah, because doing something like that, even 1:07:30.880 --> 1:07:33.960 if it's not being outwardly, you're not exerting force on 1:07:34.000 --> 1:07:37.600 somebody else, You are forcing them to think about their 1:07:37.640 --> 1:07:39.960 actions in a way that they weren't thinking about them 1:07:40.040 --> 1:07:42.280 for sure. And it feels like there's like a you know, 1:07:42.360 --> 1:07:46.600 more people every time at things like that, and people 1:07:46.640 --> 1:07:49.600 are now just you know, openly looking for like how 1:07:49.640 --> 1:07:53.120 can I be of help? How can I make myself useful? Well, 1:07:53.160 --> 1:07:56.520 also everybody has now been forced to become more familiar 1:07:56.640 --> 1:08:00.360 with being uncomfortable, and I think after three months of 1:08:00.880 --> 1:08:05.400 really being psychologically uncomfortable in isolation, but also you know, 1:08:05.440 --> 1:08:08.600 I mean really having to consider things like okay, well 1:08:08.600 --> 1:08:10.720 what if my water supply work out off? Like all 1:08:10.760 --> 1:08:13.560 of these things that were very figurative are now very 1:08:13.600 --> 1:08:17.200 pressing because we live in like techno feudalism. It's like 1:08:17.280 --> 1:08:20.400 we have the appearance of all this luxury and then 1:08:20.479 --> 1:08:22.800 when you strip it away and you see what's really 1:08:22.840 --> 1:08:25.240 there and people can't go to the doctor if they 1:08:25.280 --> 1:08:29.479 need to, it's like, oh, maybe everybody have having to 1:08:29.520 --> 1:08:31.840 like sit and think about like how your Starbucks gets 1:08:31.840 --> 1:08:37.439 made for three months is like very useful yeah, well, Robert, 1:08:37.479 --> 1:08:39.519 before we let you go, do you have any parting 1:08:39.560 --> 1:08:43.120 words for how people can find you on social media 1:08:43.160 --> 1:08:45.120 where you know what what they can listen to that 1:08:45.160 --> 1:08:46.960 you make. I know we introduced you at the beginning, 1:08:47.000 --> 1:08:49.840 but your your social handles. I get a six part 1:08:49.920 --> 1:08:52.360 mini series within Behind the Bastards coming out right now 1:08:52.400 --> 1:08:54.200 called Behind the Police. You can find it and Behind 1:08:54.200 --> 1:08:56.120 the Bastards or you can find it by looking up 1:08:56.120 --> 1:08:58.960 Behind the Police on whatever podcast app you use. It's 1:08:59.080 --> 1:09:02.600 a history of the American police. Um and kind of 1:09:02.640 --> 1:09:05.559 my argument as to why reform is actually impossible and 1:09:05.600 --> 1:09:08.400 we need to replace it with something else. Um. But 1:09:08.479 --> 1:09:10.920 it's it's history. It's a lot of history that I think, 1:09:11.080 --> 1:09:14.240 particularly a lot of white people. You'd be surprised how 1:09:14.240 --> 1:09:17.080 many of your your black friends know all of this history. 1:09:17.320 --> 1:09:18.960 But but I didn't know a lot of it until 1:09:19.000 --> 1:09:21.000 I started researching, and I don't think most white people do. 1:09:21.040 --> 1:09:24.240 And it's important, and yeah, check that out please for sure. 1:09:24.360 --> 1:09:26.679 I mean we talked on the first part of the show. 1:09:26.720 --> 1:09:30.040 We were talking about replacing parts of Disneyland that are 1:09:30.280 --> 1:09:33.360 racist and whether they are like Confederate monuments and need 1:09:33.439 --> 1:09:35.559 to be like left Okay, we're finally talking about the 1:09:35.560 --> 1:09:44.080 teacup right, Yes, yes, those teacups literally, Oh I'm mad. 1:09:44.200 --> 1:09:49.120 Now it's gonna sunk up some police. And now I 1:09:49.160 --> 1:09:52.320 don't know. I feel like looking into the history of 1:09:52.360 --> 1:09:56.120 these things and of American institutions in general, is like 1:09:56.200 --> 1:09:59.200 the most helpful thing anyone can do is read read 1:09:59.240 --> 1:10:02.160 the history of this country and see how we got here. Robert. 1:10:02.240 --> 1:10:05.000 I also wanted to out you as a fall fanatic. 1:10:05.120 --> 1:10:09.479 I just found out a huge fall stand an autumn man. 1:10:10.160 --> 1:10:12.280 I fall more than on them, but I love them 1:10:12.280 --> 1:10:15.000 both real excited for pumpkin spice to come back, hoping 1:10:15.040 --> 1:10:17.120 we all survive for that. Oh yeah, I thought you 1:10:17.160 --> 1:10:20.120 were a PSL stand. And look, if you live in 1:10:20.120 --> 1:10:24.879 a small place, how can people stockpile their pumpkin spice 1:10:24.960 --> 1:10:30.040 if they live in a small apartment survive. I'll actually 1:10:30.080 --> 1:10:31.680 tell you, because I thought a lot about this. You 1:10:31.680 --> 1:10:34.080 don't want to be buying pumpkin spiced products. You want 1:10:34.080 --> 1:10:37.240 to buy actual pumpkin spice, the spice because that will 1:10:37.280 --> 1:10:40.679 allow you. Um no, No, it's just like a powder. 1:10:41.200 --> 1:10:44.639 There's there's there's yeah, there's like there's recipes for making 1:10:44.680 --> 1:10:47.080 it too, But you want to stockpile the raw pumpkin 1:10:47.160 --> 1:10:50.000 spice ingredients and then you can pumpkin spice whatever it is. 1:10:50.040 --> 1:10:56.400 It's it's all just nutmeg. It has layers. D Thank 1:10:56.439 --> 1:10:58.519 you so much Robert for joining us today, and everyone 1:10:58.560 --> 1:11:00.920 please check out Behind the Police. Thank you very much 1:11:00.920 --> 1:11:03.559 for having me. Yeah, thanks Robert. We will see you 1:11:03.600 --> 1:11:06.840 next week. Thank you so much for listening to the 1:11:06.880 --> 1:11:09.840 pod this week. 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