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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Happy twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five. Let's hear it for our super producer, mister

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Speaker 2: Max Williams.

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Speaker 3: Woof, woof, woof.

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Speaker 2: I am Ben Bullen, joined as always with the man,

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Speaker 2: the myth, the legend, our very own bag man, mister

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Speaker 2: Noel Brown.

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Speaker 3: I'm a regular human incarnation of elaboratedoodle. Nice. Nice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is how we're kicking it off.

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Speaker 3: Guys.

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Speaker 2: We're doing an on purpose two parter. We knew in

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Speaker 2: advance this would be uh, this would be a saga,

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Speaker 2: a journey. It's a dogs. We hope that you are

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Speaker 2: if you are a dog owner or dog friends. We

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Speaker 2: hope that you and your fellow pooch are listening along today.

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Speaker 2: We got to start off with this. Dogs are just awesome.

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Speaker 3: They're pretty cool, you know. And Ben, I gotta add

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Speaker 3: you said this is an episode intentional two parter about dogs.

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Speaker 3: I would argue too, it's also about humans.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, we'll get to the idea of co evolution.

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Speaker 3: Yeah indeed. But nah, man, you're right, Like, I was

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Speaker 3: never what I would consider a dog person until I

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Speaker 3: had a couple of special boys come into my life,

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Speaker 3: and I would say I'm definitely approaching dog person at

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Speaker 3: this point. But you point out, too, Ben and your

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Speaker 3: fantastic research brief for this topic, that most people, whether

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Speaker 3: they're dog people, are not, or they would consider themselves

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Speaker 3: as such, probably have a couple of, you know, doggoes

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Speaker 3: that they vibe with, right, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Even if you don't particularly love the idea of dogs

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Speaker 2: in general, even if you don't want that close partnership

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Speaker 2: in your own neck of the global woods, you probably

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Speaker 2: ran into at least one or two specific doggos that

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Speaker 2: you dig. And so this time we are asking, at

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Speaker 2: the very beginning of twenty twenty five, how did humans

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Speaker 2: and what used to be wolves strike this bizarre, fascinating,

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Speaker 2: at times ridiculous covenant and very much is a covenant.

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Speaker 3: For sure, And how in the blazes did these creatures

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Speaker 3: get so dang cute and have such sway over our

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Speaker 3: mortal souls.

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Speaker 2: Cough cough, oxytocin. We've got to say it right here

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Speaker 2: at the front, folks. The domestic dog is known as

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Speaker 2: the canus lupus familiaris in our fellow nerd circles. And

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Speaker 2: get this, noal. It is currently one of the most

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Speaker 2: widespread carnivores on all of the land.

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Speaker 3: Ben, something just hit me like a bolt out of

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Speaker 3: the blue. Familiaris you know how like you know, vampires

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Speaker 3: and witches and stuff, they have a familiar which is

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Speaker 3: usually some sort of pet that they keep by their

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Speaker 3: side that aids them in their infernal deeds or you know,

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Speaker 3: possibly benevolent deeds. No shaming here of anyone practicing the

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Speaker 3: aughts of magic, but it's got to be a connection there, right.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely a known entity. And if we tease that out

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Speaker 2: a bit further, Nole, what we see is in early

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Speaker 2: human civilization certain things that could only be done with

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Speaker 2: canines were very much like superpowers. You have a familiar

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Speaker 2: that can supervise, superpower vise whatever your flock of livestock,

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Speaker 2: whether they be goats, sheeps, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: Heck, even just the act of fetching is a bit

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Speaker 3: of a power, you know. It's sort of like an

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Speaker 3: extension of yourself.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, and today these creatures that you ridiculous historians

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Speaker 2: may be petting right now, they come in so many

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Speaker 2: shapes and sizes. They're found in pretty much every country

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Speaker 2: all over the world. There is no nation that has

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Speaker 2: a ban against dogs. We may well do an entire

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Speaker 2: episode on dog breeds in the future. So fellow ridiculous historians,

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Speaker 2: go ahead, get in front of it, tell us your favorites,

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Speaker 2: fetch us.

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Speaker 3: Some photos, indeed, hit us with your picks. You know, Ben,

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Speaker 3: you mentioned the idea of no ban on dogs. I

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Speaker 3: love that you jumped right to the chase on that.

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Speaker 3: We've talked a lot on our other podcast. Stuff they

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Speaker 3: don't want you to know about how often in many

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Speaker 3: countries domesticated animals are off limits for consumption because of

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Speaker 3: something called speciesm I believe, is the term in which

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Speaker 3: humans prize value the lives of certain species of creatures

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Speaker 3: over others, and dogs tend to be front and center

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Speaker 3: in this way of thinking.

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Speaker 2: I'll eat a lot of things as long as they're

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Speaker 2: not cute, say the humans. Now, of course we know

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Speaker 2: I appreciate you pointing this out at the top. No,

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Speaker 2: of course we know that in certain cultures and at

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Speaker 2: certain times of privation, humans have consumed dogs and cats,

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Speaker 2: and you know, each other, horses.

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Speaker 3: Sure, yes, I mean you know. I think I believe

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Speaker 3: you've been Some of your travels have sent me pictures

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Speaker 3: of places where they fully advertise that they serve horse.

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Speaker 2: Yep, that's correct, and I have consumed those fleet footage quadrupeds.

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Speaker 3: And not to get too off track here, but while

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Speaker 3: we here in America might frown upon eating horses, we

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Speaker 3: sure as heck use the crap out of them for

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Speaker 3: our own financial gain and entertainments, don't we?

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Speaker 2: Yes, just so, so, we do want to acknowledge again. Look,

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Speaker 2: when we say that human beings culturally have predilections or

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Speaker 2: social ways against consumption of certain other animals, we are

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Speaker 2: acknowledging that if worse comes the worst, humans will eat anything,

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Speaker 2: including one another.

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Speaker 3: That's right. We've seen the Donner Party, for example, in

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Speaker 3: cases of humans being stranded in horrible situations and survival

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Speaker 3: becomes really the only thing.

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Speaker 2: Left Leningrad war zones. The list unfortunately goes on. Please

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Speaker 2: check out our earlier series on cannibalism. We promise we're

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Speaker 2: going to keep this pretty light because we are such

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Speaker 2: fans of dogs. In fact, Noel, when we were talking

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Speaker 2: to our pal Max here in twenty twenty five pitching

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Speaker 2: this dog episode, Max said, you know, guys, this is

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Speaker 2: definitely gonna be a two parter.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We all three of us here love dogs on ridiculous history.

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I think we're all collective just animal lovers.

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Speaker 6: Obviously our love of cats is very well stated. But

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Speaker 6: I'm like Ben's like, I'm gonna trush runs down. Like Ben,

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Speaker 6: there's no point we're gonna go on forever about this.

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Speaker 6: We might as well just accept it.

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Speaker 3: I will say I have a complicated relationship with cats

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Speaker 3: that usually lands on liking, but it sort of vacillates.

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Speaker 3: But I think that's the nature of cats, whereas dogs

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Speaker 3: just kind of give you their undying affection and love

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Speaker 3: and loyalty, and that comes in no small part from

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Speaker 3: their evolution.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, yes, yeah. Dogs what we call dogs today,

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Speaker 2: are most likely the first non human animal species to

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Speaker 2: be domesticated by human beings. It's a bond that goes

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Speaker 2: back tens of thousands of years, so far back that

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Speaker 2: we are not sure how long ago this occurred. Somewhere

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Speaker 2: between forty thousand years ago, there were things that we

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Speaker 2: could call wolves on the way to doghood and the

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Speaker 2: things that we know could be considered dogs instead of wolves.

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Speaker 2: They show up somewhere around fourteen thousand to fifteen thousand

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Speaker 2: years ago. But fifteen thousand to forty thousand, that's a

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Speaker 2: crazy margin, right, that's pretty wide.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty wide swath indeed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And scientists as of now are still debating about

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Speaker 2: the history and evolution of dogs, the timeline of how

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Speaker 2: this interaction with humans, this great team up occurred. Here's

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Speaker 2: what we know so far. We got to talk about

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Speaker 2: the ancient past, Noel, what do we mean when we

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Speaker 2: say dog?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean dogs belong to a family known as

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Speaker 3: Canada has something to do with Canada, which is a

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Speaker 3: family of you guessed it, dog like species. You probably

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Speaker 3: know the hits, foxes, wolves, you already mentioned, Ben, Jackals, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, kind of long probosis, having quadrupeds with waggly tails.

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Speaker 2: The coyote as well. Yes, they branched off from a

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Speaker 2: family called Maya Cide about forty million years ago, probably

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Speaker 2: in North America, where that's where we see the evolutionary split.

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Speaker 2: That's why, to be quite honest, that's why they're not

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Speaker 2: domesticated bears for sure.

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Speaker 3: And you know, Ben, what's interesting about this whole conversation,

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Speaker 3: among many things that are interesting about it, is this

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Speaker 3: is an example of I guess we could call it

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Speaker 3: kind of assisted evolution, right, yeah, yeah, like evolution that

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Speaker 3: is directly changed, the course of which, the branchings of

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Speaker 3: which are influenced directly by the actions of human beings.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, natural the artificial selection. I mean, maybe we explore

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Speaker 2: this ancient past with some journalism logic, old school j

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Speaker 2: type stuff. What when, where, and how did this amazing

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Speaker 2: friendship come about?

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Speaker 3: Bitty bitty bitty bit extra extra you read all about

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Speaker 3: it now. It's true, Ben, dogs look different. There's so

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Speaker 3: many varieties of these, you know, fluffy creatures. You point out, Ben,

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Speaker 3: that ashitsu looks a whole lot different from a big

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Speaker 3: old mass stuff, and both of those look a hell

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Speaker 3: of a lot different from a wolf the og indeed, So.

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Speaker 2: Okay, this is true, and you might be petting your

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Speaker 2: favorite Pomeranian or in fear of a shaky Chihuahuah right

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Speaker 2: now as you listen to this. Today, most folks believe

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Speaker 2: modern dogs came from a relatively small population of now

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Speaker 2: extinct gray wolves from the plastine. And it was dude,

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Speaker 2: it's just like the first act of a good rom com.

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Speaker 2: Early humans and these wolves, who were again extinct, they

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Speaker 2: did not get along at first. They were rivals ecologically speaking.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so excited to get into some of the

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Speaker 3: details of how domestication works. But the question becomes why

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Speaker 3: this particular subspecies of gray wolves. There's just something about

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Speaker 3: their demeanor kind of right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they had these they had this will they

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Speaker 2: won't they think? Going on for quite some time. I'm

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Speaker 2: sticking with this rom Cobb analogy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right.

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Speaker 2: They were competing for the same resources, they were after

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Speaker 2: the same prey, right, and they were largely carnivorous. If anything,

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Speaker 2: these two groups already had evolved to be incredibly similar.

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Speaker 2: Like humans, wolves are highly social creatures. They live in packs,

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Speaker 2: they have complex highiarchies. Although the alpha wolf thing, by

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Speaker 2: the way, is kind of a myth, just going to

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Speaker 2: put that out there. The lone wolf, the lone wolf

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Speaker 2: can happen.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, there's a different the AffA wolf meaning what

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Speaker 3: like leader of the pack?

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Speaker 1: Hm.

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Speaker 2: Just like the old Motown song which can legally afford

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Speaker 2: to play a clip.

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Speaker 3: On, No we can't, but you can use your imagination.

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Speaker 3: You're hearing it in your head right now, I know

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Speaker 3: you are. It's a jam. So the members of a

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Speaker 3: pack more realistically, were kind of equals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so in a hierarchical environment, the primary thing is

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Speaker 2: going to be stuff like access to reproduction and who

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Speaker 2: gets to eat first. This is clearly also happening to

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Speaker 2: the human packs as well. Both wolves and humans are

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Speaker 2: what we would call nomadic at at the point where

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Speaker 2: they have this rom com and even their hunting strategies

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Speaker 2: were related. Noel, I'm sure you've heard the phrase persistent hunter,

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Speaker 2: persistence hunting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and not to mention hungry like the wolf.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, and both humans and wolves track their prey

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Speaker 2: over long distances, wearing down the sprinters, the ussane bolts

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Speaker 2: of the grazing world.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we've certainly seen national geographic footage that is

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Speaker 3: somewhat triggering traumatic Dare I say of you know, the

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Speaker 3: wolves kind of running after a herd of grazing animals

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Speaker 3: and kind of picking off the weak ones.

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Speaker 2: Or a flock of seagulls. I just want to reference that, right, So, wolves,

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Speaker 2: at this time, and honestly at all times, wolves are

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Speaker 2: not normally attacking humans. Most non human predators are not

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Speaker 2: actively chasing the human being because humans are intensely inconvenient prey.

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Speaker 2: But these wolves back in the day, they are souper,

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Speaker 2: duper down with stealing and scavenging whatever they can whenever

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Speaker 2: they can. This was a rivalry that continued for thousands

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Speaker 2: and thousands and thousands of years until something changed.

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Speaker 3: Well sure, I mean we've already kind of alluded to it,

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Speaker 3: but the human beings entering the chat changed a whole lot. Ben,

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Speaker 3: there's a Rudyard Kipling poem that I think sums this

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Speaker 3: up beautifully that I know you're a fan of the

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Speaker 3: Law of the Jungle. Yeah, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The most important part of that is probably the refrain

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Speaker 2: for the strength of the pack is the wolf, and

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Speaker 2: the strength of the wolf is the pack. Humans had

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Speaker 2: similar experiences. They learned to care for one another, right

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Speaker 2: to rear their young, to protect and feed them. They

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Speaker 2: got to the point where they got by with a

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Speaker 2: little help from their friends, and this is something that

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Speaker 2: we see wolves doing as well now in the brutal

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Speaker 2: Game of Nature. Shout out to David Attenborough at all.

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Speaker 2: We will see that usually creatures this ecologically close with

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Speaker 2: such a similar Venn diagram of aims, they will become

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Speaker 2: mortal enemies. They will possibly fight unto the point of extinction,

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Speaker 2: and for a long time, the smartest boffins in the

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Speaker 2: human world used to believe that early human communities would

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Speaker 2: kill adult wolves, kidnap their cubs, and then hand rear them,

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Speaker 2: effectively taming them, which is different from domesticating them. But

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Speaker 2: there's a big problem with this theory, Noel. It's the timing.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean it's like these types of shifts

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Speaker 3: don't happen overnight. This is a bit of a long game,

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Speaker 3: and like one cub being reared by humans does not

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Speaker 3: equate to a you know, full bore domestication of a species.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just because you tame and pet one extinct gray

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Speaker 2: wolf doesn't mean all its kids are gonna be Uh,

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Speaker 2: what's a what's a funny dog breed?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Well, you already said she'suu well and I said

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Speaker 3: labradoodle cockapoo sneuzer. Sure, Yeah, well, I mean I think

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Speaker 3: I get what you're putting down.

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Speaker 4: Ben.

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Speaker 3: The way evolution works is there has to be a

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Speaker 3: trait that becomes beneficial to the entire species entire, you know,

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Speaker 3: that allows them to flourish. And with man entering the equation,

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Speaker 3: it makes a lot of sense that over time, playing

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Speaker 3: nice with humans would be just that type of adaptation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, just soon. That's a great point because if

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Speaker 2: you look at wolves today and you look at wolves

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Speaker 2: back then, they are relatively uniform in appearance, they are homogeneous.

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Speaker 2: The odds of a mutation appearing randomly in one wolf

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Speaker 2: in a captain population, even today, they're very small, and

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Speaker 2: it's winning the lottery four times in a row, probably

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Speaker 2: more in a row. To imagine a mutation that would

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Speaker 2: successfully breed through a population. So logically it would have

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Speaker 2: taken thousands or even millions of years to get the

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Speaker 2: diversity that we see in dogs. But if you look

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Speaker 2: at the fossil evidence, you'll see dogs appear pretty recently.

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Speaker 2: What we say forty thirty three thousand years ago. If

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Speaker 2: you fast forward to fifteen thousand years ago, you were

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Speaker 2: going to see unambiguously domesticated dogs, and Noel, they have

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Speaker 2: all the stuff that you were describing, right in the

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Speaker 2: bone structure, the changes in the snout, and perhaps even

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Speaker 2: more importantly, the changes in human interaction with those creatures.

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Speaker 2: Now we're seeing dogs buried with people. Now we're seeing

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Speaker 2: the you know, the beloved Fido shout out to our

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Speaker 2: Fido episode, you know, nestled up with an ancient human

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Speaker 2: and we also have modern evidence that shows us wild

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Speaker 2: wolves are different from dogs on a fundamental level. Like

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Speaker 2: you take a random dog, you take a random wolf,

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Speaker 2: they behave very differently.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: There have been studies of wolf pups raised in captivity

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Speaker 3: that show that this would have been completely impractical. The

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Speaker 3: way that early humans live was pretty tough. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you know, there's no question about that. Survival was the

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Speaker 3: name of the game. So regardless of how much attention

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Speaker 3: or you know, love and care are given to these

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Speaker 3: wolf pups, the fact remains that they are wolves.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very much so, right, Like if you raise a

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Speaker 2: horse and you raise a zebra, you contame them both,

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Speaker 2: but only one could be domesticated. It's strange, and I

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Speaker 2: love that you're pointing out the time it would take

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Speaker 2: as a hunter gatherer to pay this focused attention to

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Speaker 2: this thing that will naturally bite you and will see

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Speaker 2: you as an ecological threat.

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Speaker 3: So you got enough going on. You don't need that, nobody,

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Speaker 3: You don't need that drama.

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Speaker 2: No, No, you're out hunting mammoths or whatever. You got.

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Speaker 2: You got bigger things to worry about. You're trying to

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Speaker 2: figure out wheels and fire. You know, you got a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of projects one hundred percent. That's to say that you're

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Speaker 3: not going to purposefully keep around something that is not

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Speaker 3: benefiting you in some way. You know, this is like

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Speaker 3: very much a lean time where you travel light and

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Speaker 3: you definitely aren't keeping heck, human stragglers around. You know,

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Speaker 3: if people can't pull their weight in the hunting party,

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Speaker 3: they're probably not gonna make it either. So like having

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Speaker 3: a creature around that's nipping at your heels literally, or

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Speaker 3: you know the worst, actually biting you and drawing blood,

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Speaker 3: You're probably going to put an end to that real quick.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, can you trust this other entity that is not human?

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Speaker 2: Can you trust it to the point where you go

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Speaker 2: to sleep around it? The answer with dogs is yes.

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Speaker 3: The answer with wolves is no, right, yeah, can you

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Speaker 3: have your infants around it? You know?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, good point, because wolves are not really rule followers,

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Speaker 2: they're not into human rubric of behavior. This leads us

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Speaker 2: to the next question, which you so excellently foreshadowed. What

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Speaker 2: if some wolves effectively domesticated themselves.

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Speaker 3: Because they saw a benefit to running with the humans.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a theory we find in works like Dogs

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Speaker 2: a startling new understanding of Cadine origin behavior. And Evolution

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Speaker 2: by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger.

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Speaker 3: Their Eyebrows stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's it's a pretty great read. It's kind of controversial,

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Speaker 2: but it's one example of this argument. It suggests that

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Speaker 2: when humans moved from a mobile hunter gatherer society to

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Speaker 2: agriculture to a sedentary lifestyle where you had to stick

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Speaker 2: around and make sure crops made it from one season

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Speaker 2: to the next, their argument is that in doing so,

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Speaker 2: humans created a new parking spot, a new ecological niche

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Speaker 2: for the wolves in the area.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's just like you know in any situation, Like

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Speaker 3: I think it's Maslow's hierarchy of needs that once certain

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Speaker 3: certain needs are required to be met, shelter, food, et cetera,

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Speaker 3: once those needs are easier to meet, you kind of

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Speaker 3: open up the ability to focus on things like leisure

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Speaker 3: and perhaps companionship from a critter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah right, I love that you're bringing in Maslow. There,

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Speaker 2: we see that what likely happened is some of these

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Speaker 2: early wolves may have built a tolerance to the presence

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Speaker 2: of humans, and they at some point realize, look, if

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Speaker 2: you see humans around, they litter, they leave a lot

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Speaker 2: of leftovers, they leave a lot of trash. So we

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Speaker 2: can go to the human camp just like one of

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Speaker 2: those weird folks at a fish festival. Groundcourse is that

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Speaker 2: what they're called is they're called groundcour called.

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Speaker 3: Ground where's the ground score? It's anything that you find

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Speaker 3: on the ground that a festival. Typically you'd be looking

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Speaker 3: for drugs, but it can be anything that could be

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Speaker 3: you know something, you love it, I love it. So

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Speaker 3: the wolves figure out how to groundscore.

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Speaker 2: What a perfect term.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: And then they also evolved the well, they didn't really

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Speaker 2: evolve at this point. They sort of migrated their skill set.

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Speaker 2: The stuff they used for their wolf packs, they figured

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Speaker 2: out they could do the same thing for their new

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Speaker 2: human packs.

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Speaker 3: Well, there was a new situation that presents itself. And

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Speaker 3: it's a whole act of a lot easier to you know,

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Speaker 3: non a nice juicy bone that still has some meat

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Speaker 3: on it than it is to stalk and hunt and

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Speaker 3: kill your prey. Not to mention if human's presence and

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Speaker 3: their advantage in hunting is maybe thinning out the herd

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Speaker 3: for you a little bit.

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Speaker 2: M that's a really good point. And perhaps, like so

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Speaker 2: many big changes, this happened in small steps. Uh, Max,

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Speaker 2: could you que us up some epic historical soundtrack.

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Speaker 3: Brolicking good chap perfect.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what's a way to it? Yeah, I like the

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Speaker 2: hand signals you're given there. All right, So picture this.

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Speaker 2: What if one of these ancient wolves long ago is

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Speaker 2: low in the pecking order of her own community, and

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Speaker 2: she decides to leave her pack and takes up a

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Speaker 2: life closer to a human community, like you were saying,

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Speaker 2: something with a more consistent source of food. And at

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Speaker 2: first she lives along the fringes, right, she hides.

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Speaker 3: She's sort of like coming in like a thief in

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Speaker 3: the night and picking up these scraps. But then over time,

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Speaker 3: you know, perhaps the humans acknowledge the presence of the

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Speaker 3: wolf no longer as a threat. And the moment that

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Speaker 3: the humans stop immediately like killing these creatures on site,

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Speaker 3: but rather see them as a potential benefit, then there's

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Speaker 3: this kind of quid pro quote thing that emerges.

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Speaker 2: Yes, now look at this, they say, this one wolf

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Speaker 2: out of all these other wolves, it can smell better

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Speaker 2: than us, it can see better, it can hear better.

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Speaker 2: It warns us of predators. It also helps us find food.

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Speaker 2: It also guards you know, our little humans, human.

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Speaker 3: Ees like minimes. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And eventually the humans also learn to tolerate this presence,

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Speaker 2: meaning that the descendants of our hypothetical she wolf reproduce

400
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Speaker 2: in like like around the humans. They grow tamer with

401
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Speaker 2: each generation. Sure, they eventually evolve more complicated behaviors like

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Speaker 2: guarding crops. That's another thing wolves do well, you know,

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Speaker 2: And it's funny.

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Speaker 3: At the top of the show, I sort of mentioned

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Speaker 3: the idea of like sort of human assisted evolution. But

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Speaker 3: the more I think about it, like, that's just kind

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Speaker 3: of how evolution works. Humans are just another factor, you know,

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Speaker 3: that presents itself in evolution that over time become the

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Speaker 3: reason for an adapted trait that then, you know, over time,

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Speaker 3: with these generations of new pups being born among the humans,

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Speaker 3: that just sort of becomes an innate characteristic that is learned.

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Speaker 3: Is it a mutation though, because eventually long enough, I

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Speaker 3: guess the mutation does take place and their appearances begin

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Speaker 3: to change. The wolves, not the humans. Yeah, well humans

415
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Speaker 3: too a little bit. I mean, we certainly know that

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Speaker 3: early humans look different than what we know of is

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Speaker 3: more modern humans. But we certainly begin to see a

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Speaker 3: change in the physicality of what were once wolves and

419
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Speaker 3: are now starting to resemble much more closely what we

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Speaker 3: think of today as dogs.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

422
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Speaker 2: Man, it's so wild to imagine sheep dogs, just sheep

423
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Speaker 2: dogs alone, working herding dogs. Their wolf ancestors would have

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Speaker 2: immediately killed the sheep, and now the dogs will go

425
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Speaker 2: on these honestly these action movie level mission to kill wolves.

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Speaker 2: There's that one guy I think we both saw who

427
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Speaker 2: just like killed eleven wolves and went and tracked them

428
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Speaker 2: down Liam Neeson style. Do you hear about this one?

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Speaker 3: I don't think so, no Ah, He's a legend. Liam Neeson's.

430
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Speaker 2: The dog version, the cade version, right, and you know,

431
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Speaker 2: shout out to you, Liam. If you're listening and you're thinking,

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Speaker 2: there still have the dog in me, well then we

433
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Speaker 2: got your back.

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Speaker 3: I mean, but dogs definitely have a certain set of skills,

435
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 3: You're absolutely right, and those skills sort of develop over

436
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 3: time with further influence from their now human masters. I mean,

437
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 3: you know, like to your point, wolves would have immediately

438
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: eaten the sheep rather than helped the humans out, because

439
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 3: there's sort of a new I guess currency, because if

440
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 3: you hang with the humans, you're getting more consistently fed,

441
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: you're getting more consistently treated, you know, well, rather than

442
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 3: being out in the wild and fending for yourself. And

443
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 3: I know that's an oversimplify, but there is something to that.

444
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: One hundred percent, you know, And it's perhaps one of

445
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: the most baffling differences, the idea that you could, as

446
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 2: a human society somehow impart the concept of rules, right

447
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: and object permanence upon this non human animal that could

448
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: you could say, Hey, I know we usually eat the sheep,

449
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 2: and don't worry, we are going to eat sheep later.

450
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 2: But for now, bro, I need you to just bark

451
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 2: if you see any wolves.

452
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 3: Well, and it's just a long game, you know, trial

453
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 3: and error type situation, much like humans figuring out what

454
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 3: things would kill you if you ate them, or what

455
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 3: things were tasty and would give you sustenance. The same deal.

456
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 3: Like can you imagine the first person that decided to

457
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 3: try to train a more wolf like you know canine

458
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 3: probably didn't go well for quite a while. I you know,

459
00:28:58,840 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: I think about that a lot.

460
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: I think they probably just threw scraps at a distance

461
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: and the dog, excuse me, the wolf on the way

462
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: to Doghood showed up. But I don't think there was

463
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: any petting. I don't think there were any belly scratches

464
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: for quite.

465
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 3: Some time, and more modern psychology gave us sort of

466
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 3: a framework for understanding this, with things like the Pavlovian responses,

467
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 3: you know, and like being able to train the dog

468
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 3: with positive reinforcement. But they didn't have a name for

469
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 3: that then. It was literally just kind of making it

470
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 3: up as they went along until they got a result

471
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 3: that was desirable.

472
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 2: Great point. Yeah, we should also know at this juncture,

473
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: humans hadn't even figured out how to write stuff down.

474
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 3: Exactly, you know what I mean.

475
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 2: Yes, they were vibing, that's the way to put it.

476
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 2: And we may be romanticizing our she wolf situation a bit,

477
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 2: but we do know something like this had to have occurred.

478
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 2: Those gray wolves did eventually evolve into something like dogs,

479
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: and when they did those just like how we're saying

480
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: it's dangerous for the first human to try to hang

481
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 2: out with a wolf, it's dangerous for the first wolf

482
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: to try to hang out with a human, you know,

483
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 2: because historically, if you're a wolf and you see a

484
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 2: group of humans, you're not going to like howl at

485
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 2: the moon and then jump at them. You are going

486
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 2: to run away. And then after they leave, when you

487
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 2: can smell that they are gone. You were going to

488
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: run back to where they were and see if you

489
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: can eat any of their trash.

490
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 3: Well, that's right, because I mean, you know, early on

491
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 3: in this relationship human and still today, there are wolves

492
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 3: that remain. And if you're in a sort of a

493
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 3: nomadic culture, or you're in sort of maybe some of

494
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 3: the more untamed parts of the world, you gotta shoot

495
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 3: wolves on site a lot of the time because they

496
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: represent a threat to your settlements, to your you know, community.

497
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: Even places where it's illegal to do so, folks will

498
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 2: attempt to shoot wolves or poison them, or somehow murder

499
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: them because for them it is a direct, clear and

500
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 2: present threat. If you're a timid wolf, however, you don't

501
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 2: get in the human club because you're always running away.

502
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: So there's a Goldilock zone, as astronomers would call it.

503
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 2: The bolder ones are the ones who go up to

504
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: the edge of the firelight.

505
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 3: And it's sort of what I was alluding to early

506
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 3: on when you talked about how there was a particular

507
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 3: group of gray wolves that were the sort of genesis

508
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 3: of what we think of today as dogs, and it

509
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 3: was something to do with their temperament they were a

510
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 3: little bolder, They were a little more curious, They were

511
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 3: a little more willing to check things out and not

512
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 3: immediately mall on site.

513
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, they were not smash on site. They had

514
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: a little or vinegar with them. They were a family show.

515
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 2: So we're not going to use the other American idiom right.

516
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 2: One group of wolves we know split from the human

517
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 2: forest hunters. They went down a different evolutionary path. You

518
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: can find them now. This other group of wolves that

519
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: hung with the humans, they figured out quickly they didn't

520
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 2: have to be as fast nor as creative as their ancestors.

521
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: In fact, being slower was better. Being smaller was better

522
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 2: because smaller animals need less food. The main quality, and

523
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 2: we're still a natural selection here. The main quality these

524
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 2: individuals needed to have was a tolerance for humans.

525
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 3: And would that group of the gray wolves that branched

526
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 3: off be what we would today refer to as Canus lupus.

527
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 2: Well, Canus lupus, yeah, this is you get to it

528
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 2: because the wolves that are alive now are not the

529
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: direct ancestors of the dogs that are alive now. Like

530
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: you're describing the pleastine, I believe it is pleastine wolves

531
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 2: that probably created dogs.

532
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 3: They are extinct now and well, but what I'm saying

533
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 3: is that evolutionary split, the one that we know of

534
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 3: today as like that's a wolf, yes, is what we

535
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 3: would call canus lupus.

536
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, I believe that's correct. And during this split,

537
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 2: this is all taking a very long time, right, humans

538
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 2: are using I don't like using. They're working with these

539
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 2: primitive dogs to help hunt, to help protect the human

540
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: pack from bigger, madder predators. And at the same time,

541
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 2: as you mentioned earlier, dogs are using humans as a

542
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 2: consistent food source. Now, if you have never had to

543
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 2: live in the wild, congratulations. If you ever find yourself

544
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: in the woods with no help and no cell phone,

545
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: your biggest immediate concerns are going to be finding consistent

546
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 2: sources of water and food.

547
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 3: And hopefully you get to league up with a white

548
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 3: fang type situation.

549
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, of course, you know, dream big. This is

550
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 2: a mutually beneficial structure for the humans and the wolves

551
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 2: on the way to doghood. It's called commensal domestication. It's

552
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 2: a symbiosis of sorts. It's the same structure we see

553
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: in human canine relationships today. Like have you ever hung

554
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 2: out with a sheep dog.

555
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 3: They're amazing.

556
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 2: They love do it like they naturally love organizing stuff.

557
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 2: They're very type A.

558
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 3: Absolutely No, I have not personally spent time with a

559
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 3: sheep dog, but I've seen Benji. Yes, yes, he's a

560
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 3: good boy the franchise. Yeah, stop hunting Benji seem pretty sharp,

561
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 3: is all I'm getting. He's super sharp. You nailed it.

562
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 2: Our next question perhaps the billion dog tree question, know

563
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: where did this happen? Is it true that people still

564
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 2: don't agree.

565
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 3: Yes, it's true, Like many things that occur over such

566
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,959
Speaker 3: a massive timeline, some experts believe that this took place

567
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 3: for the first time in Europe, others in the Middle East,

568
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 3: others East Asia. Still not a particular consensus. You know,

569
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 3: as we've seen in many situations like this, there's probably

570
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 3: some truth to all of those. They probably there was

571
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 3: some parallel things going on. It just kind of seems

572
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 3: like that's pretty likely. But no, there is no scientific

573
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 3: consensus at this particular moment, though the Eurasian East Asian

574
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 3: origin story does seem to get the most support. So

575
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 3: this is a little bit more foreshadowing. We've alluded to

576
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 3: some potential plot twists coming, and we're about to get

577
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 3: to it.

578
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 2: Yes, as the Cenabytes, I wanted to I wanted to

579
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: see if you would do this joke. As the cinabytes

580
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 2: used to say, put a pin in it for now,

581
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 2: it's a it's a hell raiser joke.

582
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 3: They also used to say, we have such wonders to

583
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 3: show you, as we do as well, ridiculous historical wonders

584
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 3: to show you. You know, it's funny. Cinebyte is. The

585
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 3: more I think about it, the more it sounds like

586
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 3: sort of a dainty, you know, cinnamon roll thing. You

587
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 3: might get a cinnabon, you know, cinabytes please.

588
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of like Buddy is naturally a name for

589
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: a dog instead of a human. Yeah, like Max, Max

590
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 2: is one of the most popular names for dogs.

591
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 3: Borderline is a stand in the way that Fido is.

592
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:53,959
Speaker 3: Max is making a face.

593
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 2: We looked at the statistics Max and again that's We'll

594
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 2: get to the methodology later, maybe in part two.

595
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 5: But Deal's voices now different.

596
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 2: Give me give me a give me a deeper voice,

597
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: give me.

598
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 5: Higher than you're hired. Noel's the deep voice.

599
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 4: Now I want to sound like Walter White. Okay, Apparently

600
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 4: there are these celebrity voice changer filters on Instagram now

601
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 4: Brave New World. Not necessarily in a good way, Max.

602
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 4: If you have any dog like qualities, they're all positive.

603
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, I would say, I'm a loyal person and I

604
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 6: don't do anything else, but just that, anything else dog.

605
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 4: You also like pets and and a good walk the

606
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 4: good walkies.

607
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 5: I do like a good walk that is true.

608
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 7: So we have learned a little bit about a fraut relationship. Uh, Matt,

609
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 7: I'm not sure why you decided to take revenge on

610
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 7: us for the statistics about games. Is my voice not

611
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 7: the regular for a thing that is very much not

612
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 7: my fault your decision.

613
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 5: No, you're the one who the brain statistics into this.

614
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 5: You could just ignore them like me.

615
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 4: No, statistics are there to be fussed over and to

616
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 4: be pedantic with.

617
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly, I'm just kidding. Your voice is normal again?

618
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 3: Oh great.

619
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 2: When we try to figure out exactly when and how

620
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: domestication happened, we are seeing an interlocking set of mysteries.

621
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 2: And this is where you might say, Hey, go guys, Max,

622
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: Noel Ben, we as civilization, we know about DNA. Now,

623
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: surely we can just do some DNA testing a little

624
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 2: bit of forensic searching, and this will tell us where

625
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: and when and how wolves became dogs.

626
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 3: Eh yeah, I mean it certainly hasn't stopped scientists from trying.

627
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 3: There are all sorts of advances in the research, but

628
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 3: the problem is, as is often the case, some of

629
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 3: this new information doesn't always provide answers so much as

630
00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 3: it raises new questions and can yield to further modification

631
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 3: of the scientific data and less consensus between scientists.

632
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 2: I like modification.

633
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 3: That's great, that's great, so we know.

634
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 2: Oh let me correct myself here. It is a late Pleistocene,

635
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 2: not Pleacene. This extinct late Pleistocene gray wolf is the

636
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 2: nearest common ancestor to the dog, meaning modern wolves are

637
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 2: not the direct ancestral line. But secondly, we have to

638
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: go back to the idea of genetic divergence. So everything

639
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 2: we're learning about the DNA brings up that timeline question again.

640
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 2: And this is compounded or I'm gonna use it no,

641
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: because I love that phrase. It's modified by the fact

642
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: that dogs and wolves, just like horses and zebras, are

643
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 2: genetically close enough to reproduce with each other. They have

644
00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 2: crossbread so often that, according to folks like Greg Larsen

645
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,479
Speaker 2: at the University of Oxford. Their genes are a bowl

646
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: of soup.

647
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like what we think

648
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,280
Speaker 3: of when we compare the DNA of humans and great apes.

649
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 3: But this is way closer than that, because I certainly

650
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,919
Speaker 3: don't think anyone has ever suggested that humans and great

651
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 3: apes could could mate with one another with any level

652
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 3: of success.

653
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 2: There's the human z thing, but again I guess that's

654
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 2: stuff they'll want.

655
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 4: You to know.

656
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 3: Definitely more the stuff of nightmares rather than interesting breeding choices. Yeah.

657
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 2: And there's a great article with Ed Yong, a journalist

658
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 2: over at The Atlantic, talking to Professor Larson, where he says,

659
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: you know, he goes, he goes tintoes down on this

660
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 2: soup analogy. He says, somebody goes, what ingredients we're added,

661
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,919
Speaker 2: in what proportion and in what order to make that soup?

662
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 2: Meaning the long genetic story leading to Doghood. And he says,

663
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 2: the patterns we see could have been created by seventeen

664
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: different narrative scenarios. Shout out Jonathan, and we have no

665
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 2: way of discriminating between them. And this is where this

666
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 2: is where we see some amazing research nol Larsen teamed

667
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 2: up with other scientists human as far as we know,

668
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: and to figure out the answer from wolves to dogs.

669
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 2: He did what any good dog would do. He had

670
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 2: to search here over, He had to search for the

671
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 2: right bone. Ah, that was close. And what bone would

672
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 2: that be?

673
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 3: Ben?

674
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 2: Oh, it's called a petress. Here we can here, we

675
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 2: can play along at home. If you take your finger,

676
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 2: take any one of your pointer fingers you wish, and

677
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: you put it behind your ear sort of like mid

678
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: distance behind your ear. You might feel a bump. Do

679
00:41:58,600 --> 00:41:59,399
Speaker 2: we feel that bump?

680
00:41:59,640 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 1: I do?

681
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 3: Thankfully? Normal?

682
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 2: Higher up? Yeah, yeah, okay, looking at Max, you got it.

683
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: That is your petrus bone. It's super dense, which means

684
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 2: it's fantastic for retaining DNA. If you try to pull

685
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 2: DNA out of most fossils, it's gonna be contaminated. It's

686
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: gonna be riddled with microbes and history. You'll get a

687
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 2: lot of DNA from a fossil, but they're a very

688
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: small percentage of it will come from.

689
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 3: The I guess we should say the owner of the bone,

690
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 3: the creator of the bone, right, rather than the contamination

691
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 3: over time and a researcher named Dan Bradley of Trinity

692
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 3: College Dublin found the perfect specimen in Eastern Ireland's New Grange.

693
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 3: It's a forty eight hundred year old monument that actually

694
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 3: predates Stonehenge and the Pyramids of Giza. Pretty big deal,

695
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 3: very important site. Beneath it's a circular mound with you know,

696
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:04,479
Speaker 3: massive networks underground chambers. Many animal bone fragments could be found,

697
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 3: and among those were the petress bone of a dog boom.

698
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 2: Which means that if you can if you can extract

699
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 2: DNA from this petress bone, you will get as high

700
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 2: as eighty percent of the original bone owners DNA. This

701
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 2: is a burial site. It's super old. It's not necessarily

702
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 2: unique because, as we mentioned earlier, the careful, ritualistic interment

703
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 2: or burial of dogs. It's not forget the written word,

704
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: it's older than that. It's older than agriculture. People were

705
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 2: hanging out with, you know, their favorite doggo or their pooch,

706
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 2: way before they figured out how to grow crops on

707
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 2: a repeatable, reproducible basis. Dogs have been buried like humans

708
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 2: for thousands of years. They have been part of the

709
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 2: family since before humans figured out how to write. Family trees.

710
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean you call a man's best friend

711
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 3: for no reason. Another important specimen found in Germany, the

712
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 3: famous bon Albercastle dog. Bon Obercastle dog shows signs of

713
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 3: some deterioration due to something called distemper, an advanced distemper

714
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 3: that suggested that it was cared for during a period

715
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 3: of illness. And another important specimen was found in Germany,

716
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:38,280
Speaker 3: known as the bon Obercastle dog or hunt. It showed

717
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 3: signs of some physical deterioration due to a malady that

718
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 3: it was apparently stricken with. This dog something called distemper,

719
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 3: and it suggested some of the evidence on the bone

720
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 3: itself that it had been cared for during this time

721
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 3: of poorliness.

722
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, so someone said, oh no, bon Obercastle is sick.

723
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 2: He has a highly can tageous virus. And someone else

724
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: said what is a virus? And they said, never mind,

725
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 2: let's take care of our dog. This is, by the way,

726
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 2: similar to research that showed us how intelligent the Deanderthal

727
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 2: population was. They cared for their elderly. It's Another example

728
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 2: would be a dog found in Tunisia and a Roman

729
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 2: burial who was eighteen years old when they passed away. Yeah,

730
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 2: missing teeth, definitely had arthritis. These are just the things

731
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 2: we can know from bones, which means someone kept this

732
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: little guy around and loved him.

733
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 3: Eighteen years old. The dog. The dog that's like, by

734
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 3: today's standards, an incredibly long life for a canine.

735
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, no kidding, and probably a hopefully a very well

736
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 2: lived life. If we look at this. We'll go back

737
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 2: to our buddy Larsen. He teams up with Laurent Frot

738
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: and they they take Bradley's research that petros bone in

739
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 2: New Grange and they say, okay, let's compare the DNA

740
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 2: from there to something like seven hundred modern dogs. Now,

741
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 2: let's try to build out a family tree. And they

742
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 2: found the tree they built again an all objective. It

743
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 2: had this obvious fork in its trunk. Sorry, that's just

744
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 2: a funny phrase.

745
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 3: It is a funny thing.

746
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it had this obvious fork in its trunk. There

747
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 2: seemed to be two different dog dynasties.

748
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 3: Be Am I the only one that, upon hearing fork

749
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 3: in its trunk, I'm picturing like an elephant with two trunks.

750
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 4: I don't know why.

751
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 3: I'm just a silly guy.

752
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 4: I like that.

753
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 2: I pictured I pictured an episode of one of those

754
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 2: sort of copaganda law enforcement shows where they say, well,

755
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 2: the suspect did have a fork in their trunk.

756
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 3: You mean like the murder weapon was a fork and

757
00:46:58,800 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 3: they found it in the trunk of their.

758
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: Ca Well, we can't say anything until it goes to work.

759
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 3: Okay, But back to the use of fork and it's

760
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 3: strunk for our purposes. One of these forks included all

761
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 3: the dogs from eastern Eurasia, like the Sharpei, which is

762
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 3: a delightful little sweetie, as well as Tibetan mastaves, which

763
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 3: are much more big bruiser dogs boys exactly the other one,

764
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 3: the other fork in said drunk, includes all of the

765
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 3: western Eurasian breeds and the New Grange dog.

766
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 2: Which is the source of that original Petrus both. So

767
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 2: this leads Larsen to a fascinating hypothesis or fascinating piece

768
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 2: of speculation. We thought dogs were domesticated once, maybe thirty

769
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 2: something thousand years ago in Eurasia, but DNA seems to

770
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 2: indicate different populations of humans with little to no interaction

771
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 2: may have independent domesticated canines, not once, but multiple times.

772
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 2: Parallel thinking. As said earlier, it makes sense because a

773
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 2: good idea is a good.

774
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 3: Idea absolutely, and the team responsible for this research also

775
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 3: calculated that the two dog dynasties we're talking about here

776
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 3: split from each other between somewhere around sixty four hundred

777
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 3: and fourteen thousand years ago. Another pretty big swath, but

778
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 3: the oldest dog fossils. Dog fossil be a great name

779
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 3: for a band, By the way, some sort of like

780
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 3: metalcore band are older even than that, which means that

781
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 3: when those Eastern dogs migrated west into Europe, there were

782
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 3: already dogs waiting on them there to buddy.

783
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 2: Up and to larsen, this only makes sense if dogs

784
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 2: were domesticated more than once. To be clear, this is

785
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 2: not one hundred percent accepted by the scientific world at large,

786
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,919
Speaker 2: but it's a pretty great guess. Again, it goes down

787
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 2: to the timing. Dogs may have been maybe domesticated just

788
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,879
Speaker 2: the one time, split into other populations before the dawn

789
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 2: of history or recorded history, or they may have been

790
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 2: a great idea for various human communities at various points

791
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 2: in time and across the planet. All we know for

792
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 2: sure is that they were definitely domesticated in the ancient

793
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 2: ancient past, and they were probably the first animals to

794
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 2: experience the profound change we call domestication today, and domestication

795
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 2: is sometimes a misleading term or misunderstood. You could argue,

796
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: it's not a one way push, it is a two

797
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 2: way streaked it is a.

798
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 3: Four kid trunk. No, it's a little different. Didn't quite

799
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 3: land so similar to some of our discussions on other

800
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 3: podcasts with our buddy Matt Frederick, stuff they don't want

801
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 3: you to know. We do have to ask or are

802
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 3: left with the question, what if those ancient wolves also

803
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 3: domesticated us? Dun, dun, dun. I've been made along the

804
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 3: way to answer this and other questions. We're going to

805
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 3: have to take a break here and start a new

806
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 3: episode entirely on domestication. Ben, there's a lot to discuss.

807
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,919
Speaker 3: I know we've been teasing that. I'm so excited about

808
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 3: getting into some of the minutia of what domestication means

809
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 3: because I learned a lot about this concept that I

810
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 3: think is often misunderstood.

811
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 2: Agreed, and we can't wait for you to join us.

812
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 2: Ridiculous historians learn about domestications. Send us your dog picks,

813
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,919
Speaker 2: explore this with us. We're huge, huge fans of all

814
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 2: things K nine. We're also big fans of you and

815
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,879
Speaker 2: you know who else. We're big fans of Noel, our

816
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 2: super producer, mister Max Williams. You can also find your

817
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: faithful correspondence on social needs. Should thou ship Noel? Where

818
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 2: can people find you?

819
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 3: Yeah? You can find me pretty exclusively on Instagram, where

820
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,720
Speaker 3: I exist at the handle how now Noel Brown, Ben Bollan,

821
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 3: I think I know yours?

822
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 2: Yes, in a burst of creativity, I can be found

823
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 2: calling myself at Ben Bullen on Instagram, at the game

824
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 2: downt that down at the A lot of good folks

825
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,280
Speaker 2: died at benbullin hsw on Twitter, or at the website

826
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 2: Benbollan dot com.

827
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 3: Big big thanks, of.

828
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,479
Speaker 2: Course to Alex Williams who composed this bang in track.

829
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,479
Speaker 3: I love it everything no same man. I was gonna

830
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 3: throw the Max see if he wanted to shout out

831
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,479
Speaker 3: any of his social medis, but apparently he's He's gone

832
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 3: scorched earth with that.

833
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 6: I've left everything. Twitter was the last one that went,

834
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 6: and when it changed to X I try to stay around,

835
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 6: but I just constantly was getting emails saying someone's trying

836
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 6: to access your your accounts.

837
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 5: You know what, I'm done?

838
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 3: Goodbye.

839
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,760
Speaker 2: You'll have to find Max's Cats Twitter. In the meantime,

840
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: Please remember we are nothing if not open to discourse,

841
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: and that's why we always like to recommend our complaint department.

842
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 2: Please contact us directly twenty four hours a day, seven

843
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 2: days a week, every day of the year, at Jonathan

844
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 2: Strickland at iHeartMedia dot com.

845
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 3: Indeed, he loves to hear from you, and you know what,

846
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 3: we'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

847
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 3: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

848
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 3: to your favorite shows.