1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: I think clearly the word that it's in all our 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: heads right now is galliaphobia, right. I mean, that's obvious. 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: The irrational fear of sharks. 4 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 2: That's the word for irrational fear of sharks. 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 3: That's it's called being afraid of sharks. 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 2: I mean it is rational. I'm John Ceipher. 7 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 3: And I'm Jerry o'she I. 8 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 2: Served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, 9 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: living undercover all around the world. 10 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I 11 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. 12 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 2: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we 13 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: created conspiracies in our operations. 14 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: We got people to believe things that weren't true. 15 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 2: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the 16 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 2: news almost every day. 17 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: Will break them down for you to determine whether they 18 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: could be real or whether we're being manipulated. 19 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 2: Welcome the mission implausibles. 20 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: So one of the things I really like about today's 21 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: conspiracy is that people realize when you first walk into 22 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: the agency, depending on which door you use, but if 23 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: for insiders, if you use the Berlin Wall door right 24 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: entrance and you come in off to the right, we 25 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: have a small museum, and in the museum there's this 26 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: case and there's a fish in there, and the fish 27 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: had a camera in it. And this is from the 28 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and I think certainly declassified now, but the 29 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: CIA was using an aquatic animal to gather intelligence, right, 30 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,839 Speaker 1: And I always wondered, after the movie Jaws came out, 31 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: how we could like bring this small little fish and 32 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 1: put it together with this with Bruce the movie Shark. 33 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: So yeah, so today's episode has to do with a 34 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 2: variety of things. Has to do with sharks, it has 35 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 2: to do with Israel, a place where you spent some time, 36 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: and it has to do with Russia, a place where 37 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: I spent quite a bit of time. And so it 38 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: should be fun. 39 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think parts of it will be jumping 40 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: the shark, and I'm really looking forward to getting into it. 41 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:00,559 Speaker 3: You can't help yourself, I can't. 42 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 4: I love it. 43 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 3: It's a dad joke thing. 44 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: So let me let me try to just give you 45 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 2: a sense of this soul. The conspiracy is that Israel 46 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 2: had trained sharks to attack Russian tourists that were swimming 47 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 2: in Egypt in order to hurt the Egyptian tourist industry. 48 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 2: And so just to this, the background of this is 49 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: in December twenty ten, there were several shark attacks that 50 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: occurred off the South Sinai resort of sharmel Shak in Egypt, 51 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: and shortly thereafter there was ajoe on Egyptian TV where 52 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: this captain Mustafa, who was a professional diver, supposedly commented 53 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 2: that the sharks who were involved in the attack were 54 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: normal ocean sharks, in other words, not the ones that 55 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: normally reside off the waters of Egypt. And the commentary 56 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 2: went on to say that they discovered a small shark 57 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: which was implanted with a GPS device and alleged that 58 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 2: the GPS device founded one of the sharks was in 59 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: fact a quote guiding device planted by Israeli agents. 60 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: Now I'm not one hundred percent sure why they would 61 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: do that, because they're not at war really with the Egyptians, 62 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: and they seems to me Israel would actually want to 63 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: have a prosperous Egypt, not a desperate Egypt sort of 64 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: at their throat. Now I remember, and I don't have 65 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: this at my fingertips, but in Iran, and this is 66 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: where it gets sort of ugly. In Iran, a couple 67 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: of years ago, the Iranians found a cheetah, a wild 68 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: cheetah of which there are just a couple of dozen 69 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: left in the wild, and it had a censor around 70 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: its neck, and the Iranians they deduced from this that 71 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: it must be an intelligence operation because it was I 72 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: guess maybe found near a sensitive site or something like that, 73 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: and so Iran decided to kill all the cheetahs, and 74 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: it actually began trying to exterminate them, and of course, 75 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: as you'd expect, it turned out that the cheetah was 76 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: tagged because it was from a wildlife preservation group trying 77 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: to determine how cheatahs migrate in order to best protect them. 78 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: But there is the story in the nineteen fifties, which 79 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: may or may not be true, that CIA tried to 80 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: put listening devices into a cat. 81 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 3: Do you remember this, Oh? 82 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. 83 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: The problem was the cat never stuck around where it 84 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: was supposed to. It was I don't even remember the story, 85 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: but the point was that a cat was hanging around 86 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: like the Russian ambassador's house, and the Russian ambassador was 87 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: bringing him into the house and feeding it. All I 88 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: remember is it didn't go well for either the CIA 89 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: or the CAT a leading indicator into this story and 90 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: why it gets any traction at all. It's the myth 91 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: and mythos and mystique behind intelligence services, especially MOSAD. And 92 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's the reality of espionage that you 93 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: and I both know that includes things like I can 94 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: remember early in my career, back when they still had 95 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: public telephones, if I had to make a call that 96 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: I didn't want listen to out of the embassy, you'd 97 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,239 Speaker 1: oh for a little walk and you'd find a public 98 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: telephone bootho you'd make a call. But then you'd come 99 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: back and at the end of the month you got 100 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: to do your your monthly accounting, and I would have 101 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: to end up writing like a paragraph on why I 102 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: spent this twenty cents. 103 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 3: It was like who was the call to? Why did 104 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 3: I have to write right? Right? So you never see. 105 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: James Bond having to account for like a twenty cent 106 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: phone call. So the mystique that most sought are these 107 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: mysterious intelligence all powerful on this intelligence agencies have these powers, 108 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: I think is part of a powerful mistique that people 109 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: want to have or need to have. 110 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 2: I'm sure you've seen overseas when we've lived in different 111 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 2: places that viewpoint. It can either benefit us or be 112 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: a curse. Right, So, yeah, there are times when I've 113 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: lived in countries where, honestly God, they think the CIA 114 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: is all seeing, all knowing, can do all these other 115 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 2: all these kind of things. I lived in one country 116 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 2: where we got to report from the local service who 117 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 2: believed that we had a nuclear device, like a nuclear 118 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: bomb that we kept in our office that we could 119 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: use against the country. And I'm not sure why they 120 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 2: thought we would blow ourselves up. But the reality of 121 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 2: CIA and other intelligence agencies is they're bureaucracies. But there's 122 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 2: that view, especially with Israel, that somehow they had this 123 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: special skill and special knowledge and they're the best spies 124 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 2: in the world. And I think they actually promote some 125 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 2: of that kind of stuff because you and I have 126 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 2: worked with Israel and they're very, very good, and they're 127 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: part of the world. They have more authorities than we 128 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: do to do things like kill people and stuff, but 129 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 2: by no means are they ten feet tall. There's this 130 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 2: view out there that they're unbelievable. 131 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: Well, John, aside from sharks, I think we saw in 132 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: seven October that Israeli intelligence doesn't always get it right, 133 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: they're not ten feet tall, and they're made of human beings, 134 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:50,119 Speaker 1: just like anybody else. 135 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: Well, let's get to our guest, so Jerry. Today, we're 136 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 2: lucky to have Kieran man Gin with us. Kieran is 137 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 2: a researcher and creator and host of the Shark Files podcasts. 138 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 2: These are true stories about where humans and sharks come together. 139 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 2: So frankly, he's the perfect expert to talk to us 140 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: today about our conspiracy. As you know here on there's 141 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: this story which you know better than we do. So 142 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 2: I was wondering if you could give us a short 143 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,239 Speaker 2: overview of the real story and what it morphed into. 144 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 4: Okay, Well, it began November thirty, first, twenty ten, within 145 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 4: the space of an hour at an Egyptian resort in 146 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 4: the Red Sea called Charmel Shake, which gets millions of 147 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 4: international tourists every year. There were two shark attacks, quite 148 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,559 Speaker 4: severe but non fatal. Yeah, that's where it all began, 149 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 4: and there was a lot of panic at the time, 150 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 4: a lot of international attention, and it doubled when the 151 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 4: next day there were two further attacks a short distance 152 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 4: on the coast from the to the previous day, So 153 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 4: it actually echoed the film Jaws quite a lot in 154 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 4: that beaches were closed. The mayor came out and said 155 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 4: that we have this under control and everything. And what 156 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 4: happened was they went out hunted the sharks. They took 157 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 4: to a board, and they quickly them as the guilty sharks, 158 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 4: let's say. And within a couple of days the beaches 159 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 4: were reopened like Jaws, as I said, and nothing to 160 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 4: see here, carry on. But the week of always say 161 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 4: shark panic culminated on the fifth of December when a 162 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 4: German tourist called Ranada Seifert, she was swimming on a 163 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 4: busy beach outside the Higatt Regency hotel in Charmel Shak 164 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 4: and she was fatally attacked by an oceanic quite tip shark. 165 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 4: And yeah, it was a really shocking event, witnessed by 166 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 4: a lot of people. And again the coastline was closed 167 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,359 Speaker 4: for a couple of days. And I think the conspiracy 168 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 4: by the Egyptian authorities and by some parts of the 169 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 4: Egyptian public as well, kind of sprang up from trying 170 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 4: to make sense of the shock around the events and 171 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 4: also the really negative international attention that it brought. 172 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: So what came out of that then is instead of 173 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: finding reasons for why these shark attacks happened, which are 174 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: very rare, yes, extremely extremely rare, statistically, that they had 175 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: look beyond the sharks to look for a wider conspiracy, 176 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: and that became then yeah, Mosad, Israel special forces and 177 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: so forth. 178 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 4: So the compelling theory was that Mossad had thrown a 179 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 4: deadly shark into the Red Sea. That was how I 180 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 4: was phrased. And Mohammed Shusha, who's the governor of South 181 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 4: Sinai in Egypt, the region where Charmel Shaik is, he 182 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 4: said that it is not out of the question, but 183 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 4: it needs time to be confirmed. So that was his 184 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 4: official line on that. Helpful, But I suppose it's worth 185 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 4: looking at the fact that Charmel Shaik actually has a 186 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 4: kind of a geopolitical significance as well. So if you 187 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 4: go back to the Six Day War in the nineteen seventies, 188 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 4: Israel occupied charm El Shaikh and it became renamed Ophira, 189 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 4: and that's where it developed from like a I guess, 190 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 4: a dusty kind of settlement on the Red Sea into 191 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 4: a tourist resort under Israeli control. And then in nineteen 192 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 4: eighty two, with the Camp David Accords. It was actually 193 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 4: given back to Egypt by his and they ran with 194 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 4: the developing tourist industry there and it's grown into a 195 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 4: huge tourist hub. 196 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: Let's run with this, Okay, how would you go about 197 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: finding a man eating shark? Train the shark to eat people, 198 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: feed it on peoples in some sort of way, and 199 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: then I have to smuggle it in and drop it 200 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 1: off into Egyptian waters In the conspiracy theory, Yeah, how 201 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 1: would that work? 202 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 4: The statistical likelihood is so tiny of a shark actually 203 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 4: attacking someone that it's extremely rare. So you can't even, like, 204 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 4: if you were to try to guarantee that a shark 205 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 4: would even bite somebody, it's very difficult to do. We 206 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 4: know that sharks can be trained to do basic tasks. 207 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 4: So if you go back to the nineteen fifties, there's 208 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 4: an American sharks scientist called doctor Eugenie Clark, and she 209 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 4: trained lemon sharks to bump a particular dinner bell to 210 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 4: actually get a meal thrown into a pool for them, 211 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 4: and they could remember this for several months afterwards. So 212 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 4: sharks can't be trained to do basic tasks. But I 213 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 4: think to do something complicated I think be really difficult 214 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 4: to do that securitis. 215 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: If I recall correctly, some of the media on these attacks, 216 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: there was also a suggestion, strong suggestion, that the sharks 217 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: were also attacking Russians, specifically targeting them because I feel 218 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: bad for the German tours, but I believe most of 219 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: the people attacked were Russians. And somehow it was in 220 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: this that the sharks were being taught not only to 221 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: attack people, but to differentiate. Could you tell us how 222 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: sharks actually these kind of sharks what drives a predatory behavior. 223 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 4: If someone is isolated, for instance, like in four of 224 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 4: the five cases over that week in Sharmel Shaikh, the 225 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 4: people who were bitten were actually isolated from people around them, 226 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 4: So that's quite a big factor if you're swimming alone. 227 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 4: Also possibly if you're splashing quite a bit. And there's 228 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 4: other things that might like contrast between the water and 229 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 4: say jewelry, or the idea of maybe wearing like the 230 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 4: suggestions of a colorful swimsuit or different things like that 231 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 4: that might create contrast with the blue of the water 232 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 4: that could attract the shark's attention. But you know, they're 233 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 4: not border security. They won't be able to delop what 234 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 4: nationality you are. Three of the five Byte victims were Russian, 235 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 4: one was Ukrainian, and then the as I said, the 236 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 4: final one was German. So I think it was just 237 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 4: the basic fact of a lot of Russians go to 238 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 4: Sharma Shik. It's a really popular destination for Russian tourists. 239 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 4: So I think that really explains it more than any 240 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 4: prejudice on the part of the shark. 241 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 3: That's what they want you to think. 242 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 4: I'm being paid by Big Sharks to say exactly. 243 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 2: So, Kiran, you mentioned that sharks can be trained. Are 244 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 2: you aware of any governments or militaries that try to 245 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 2: use sharks or train sharks for government or military purpose? 246 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 4: Well, the US military uses a spy shark. It's a 247 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 4: designed to look like a real shark, but it's a 248 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 4: it's a robot. It's kind of a kind of a 249 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 4: prototype as such, and it's been used to I guess, 250 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 4: discreetly monitor things going on at sea. But I've never 251 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 4: heard of an actual shark being trained or used for 252 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 4: any purposes like that. There's an interesting one with there's 253 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 4: a luga whale called Valdemir who's become something of a celebrity 254 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 4: in I think it's Norway, And he was found a 255 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 4: couple of years ago wearing a harness and a collar, 256 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 4: and there's quite compelling evidence that there was attempts made 257 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 4: to train him to be a Russian spy whale to 258 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 4: keep an eye on naval activities and different things like that. 259 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 4: So I mean whales like say beluga or an orca 260 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,359 Speaker 4: or dolphin or something is much more intelligent and complex 261 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 4: in many ways than a shark would be, and would 262 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 4: be a better candidate than that. 263 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: Well, there's training and then there's sort of like managing 264 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: or exploiting. So we all know that sharks can go 265 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: into a feeding frenzy if there's blood in the water. 266 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: That blood they can sense it from miles away. 267 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 3: Right. 268 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: Also I understand that they have strunk smell sense. 269 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 3: Urine is another thing. 270 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: Then we'll attract them surprising like living here and why 271 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 1: they tell you don't pee in the water if you 272 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: don't want to deal with sharks, right? Is there a 273 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: way to manage sharks, like to draw them into a 274 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: particular area. 275 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. Looking back at the investigation into why the attacks 276 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 4: happened at Charmel Shake, there were two or three factors 277 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 4: that could answer your question. One of them was there 278 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 4: was an Australian freighter, a large ship that dumped sheep 279 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 4: carcasses into the Red Sea in the weak or so 280 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 4: before the attacks, and that created like a let's say, 281 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 4: a chum slick in the water. Another big factor was 282 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 4: there was illegal feeding of fish, small colorful fish inshore 283 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 4: in Charmel Shake. So this was tourists at the resorts 284 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 4: getting leftover food from restaurants or scraps of their lunch 285 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 4: and bringing them along the jetties along the shoreline and 286 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 4: throwing scraps into the water and attracting small fish inwards. 287 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 4: So this was seen as another possible factor that like 288 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 4: smaller fish were attracted and then slightly larger fish came 289 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 4: to feed on them. And then we were talking about 290 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 4: shark's sense of smell. One of the huge superpowers that 291 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 4: sharks have as well is they have along their snouts 292 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 4: these things called amplay of lareen Zini and they're these 293 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 4: kind of electro receptors, So even in some conditions, even 294 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 4: more so than smell, they can allow a shark to 295 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 4: detect tiny movements changes in the water. So yeah, if 296 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 4: you were trying to attract sharks. I mean, there are 297 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 4: a lot of shark tour operators dive boats and they're 298 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 4: kind of experts in this. And a couple of years 299 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 4: ago and Shark Week actually was interesting. They did a 300 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 4: test to see what kind of music sharks like, So 301 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 4: they put speakers underwater and they they came to the 302 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 4: conclusion that sharks love heavy metal. So this kind of low, 303 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,479 Speaker 4: deep pulsing sound, because the theory is that it replicates 304 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 4: the kind of low vibrations of struggling prey that might 305 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 4: tell them a meal is there. So all the perfect conditions, 306 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 4: the probability of a shark actually biting someone is still 307 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 4: so remote, and I think that's part of the fascination 308 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 4: that these kind of incidents are generally so rare. That's 309 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 4: why I think one of the things that we focus 310 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 4: on them so much, you know, right. 311 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: But the rest of the story, though, is charmel Shadon 312 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: doesn't have lots of I mean, there was a spike 313 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: right in shark attacks and they didn't continue. 314 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 4: I think because of the conditions like the overfishing far 315 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 4: and far from shore, the rise in marine temperatures as 316 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 4: well in the region, like a couple of those factors 317 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 4: still exist, but I don't expect we'll see something like 318 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 4: twenty ten again because, as I said, it's just such 319 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 4: an outlier. 320 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 2: But an anomaly is the perfect thing if you're trying 321 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: to create a conspiracy theory or if it draws people 322 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 2: to try to explain something. So if this hadn't happened before, 323 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden there's a spike, people are 324 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: going to come try to explain it. And if the 325 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 2: authorities don't have a good handle on it, which just 326 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 2: sounds like they didn't at first, it sort of draws 327 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: conspiracy theorist. Well that was great. Let's just take a 328 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 2: quick moment for a break, and we'll get back to 329 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: Egyptian sharks in just a moment. 330 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 3: Okay, John, Let's get back into the water. 331 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: So Kian, I'm old and I have been to Charmelshake 332 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: when it was under Israeli control, and I remember swimming 333 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: in those waters and they were beautiful. And my understanding 334 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: is from friends who've been there afterwards, is that the 335 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: coral has been to dynamite fishing and all sorts of things, 336 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: and not right in front of the tourist places, but 337 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: on the other side, and that there's been large environmental degradation, 338 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: like the sharks are I would assume are hungary er 339 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: now because there's less places for the chain as you 340 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: you know, the life chain to go up to the 341 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: small fishes to feed the larger fishes that feed the 342 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: fishes that feed the shark have disappeared. 343 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely. As I said, there's a lot of depletion 344 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 4: of fish stocks in the open sea, like the in 345 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 4: the Red Sea region. So if you look at the 346 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 4: two species of shark involved in both of those in 347 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 4: those incidents in sharam you have the oceanic quhitetip shark 348 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 4: and the make O shark, and both of them are 349 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 4: actually very rarely seen in shore, so they're more commonly 350 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 4: in open ocean, open sea, and they're feeding on marlins, 351 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 4: orther you know, large fish as well. But seeing as 352 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 4: those stocks have been depleted, and actually in two of 353 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 4: the incidents in twenty ten, a charm they actually found 354 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 4: in a necropsy on the Mago shark that they caught 355 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 4: that it had a severely depleted liver and that it 356 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 4: was suffering from malnutrition. So this might have made it 357 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 4: act in a kind of a typical way where it 358 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 4: was taking extra risks that it wouldn't normally take. And again, 359 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 4: I think we're going back to the conspiracy. I think 360 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 4: these conspirators often helped to overlook or hide some kind 361 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 4: of inconvenient truths about overfishing or other kind of issues. 362 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: So Kieran, how was tourism and affected in the immediate 363 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: aftermath of the sharkitects. 364 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 4: The bigger impact will actually never really know because within 365 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 4: a couple of months the Arab Spring had happened and 366 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 4: tourists just fled from the country. 367 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 2: Well, we determined that it's pretty hard to train shark, 368 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 2: especially to pick out certain ethnicities. But is it possible 369 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 2: that it could be a robot shark? 370 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I suppose there's a couple of things that 371 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 4: might fly in the face of that. Basically, from the 372 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 4: injuries that were examined by shark bite investigators, they found 373 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 4: very familiar shark teeth patterns on the victims wounds they 374 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 4: could tell from people who's bitten. Victor Cully on his knee, 375 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 4: you could see these kind of distinctive raking puncture wounds 376 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 4: that told them it was a mako shark when they 377 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 4: looked at it or in the case of Alga Martzinko, 378 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 4: who was bitten on the first day. I know she 379 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 4: on a quite tip shark. There was more serrated kind 380 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 4: of cuts that were really distinctive with that shark species bite. 381 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 4: I don't know what kind of engineers Massad had for 382 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 4: this job, but they would have had to replicate shark 383 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 4: teaths extremely accurately and brilliantly to do so. 384 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: Even sharks are victims of conspiracy theories. 385 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 4: They are, yeah, probably one of the most persecuted victims 386 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 4: of conspiracy theories. They're an easy target, you know, they 387 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 4: can't really stand up for themselves. So that's my job. 388 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 4: I suppose that's what I'm trying to do in part. 389 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: Well, you seem to be doing a very good job 390 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 2: of it, so thank you so much for spending time. 391 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, absolutely fascinating. Now over to John Stern. 392 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 5: All right, guys, so I did my research, as is 393 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 5: my job, and here's what I got. I talked to 394 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 5: a few experts on sharks. The first one here is 395 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 5: Mary Roach. She told me about a Navy program in 396 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 5: the nineteen sixties to use sharks as weapons called Operation Headgear, 397 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 5: and guys, spoiler alert, it didn't work. 398 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 6: I'm an author. I write nonfiction books for the general 399 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 6: public science related. But for a book called Grunt, which 400 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 6: I had to do with military science, I had a 401 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 6: chapter on efforts to create a shark repellent and that 402 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 6: led to something that didn't make it into the book, 403 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 6: Operation Headgear, which was a military effort to use sharks 404 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 6: to deliver bombs. 405 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 3: All right, so when was this? Which branch of the military. 406 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 6: Ration Headgear span the years from nineteen fifty eight to 407 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 6: nineteen seventy one. It was a project carried out It's 408 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 6: Script's Institution of Oceanography with funding from the Navy, and 409 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 6: it was an effort to use sharks to deliver a 410 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 6: payload a bomb wherever they wanted. 411 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 5: Before we get into how you get the sharks to 412 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 5: do what you want, how would they get the bombs 413 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 5: to go off when they wanted? 414 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 6: Okay, so the big problem before you even get to 415 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 6: detonation was how do you get them where you want 416 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 6: them to go? Because this is a fairly simple gadget. 417 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 6: It's called operation headgear because it's something that was placed 418 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 6: on the shark to kind of steer them. So you 419 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 6: kind of like have it set up in advance all right, 420 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 6: this is where we want the shark to go. When 421 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 6: the shark leaves the proper heading goes off course, it 422 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 6: would be programmed to deliver a noxious stimulus, and that 423 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 6: would be that was a five to twenty five volt 424 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 6: shop on one side or the other of the shark. 425 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 6: The idea being if the shark feels the shock on 426 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 6: one side, it tries to get away, so it swims 427 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 6: the other direction. That was the theory. What happened is 428 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 6: they didn't take into account the fact that when sharks swim, 429 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 6: there's a lot of kind of yawing back and forth. 430 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 6: You know, as they swim, they're going to go left, right, left, right. 431 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 6: So he kept just going like and the sharks would 432 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 6: get pissed and there was a violent reaction, probably trying 433 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 6: to shake the thing off. 434 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 5: Otherwise, I'm sure it worked fine, right. 435 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 6: It was interesting. The reason they chose sharks was also fascinating. 436 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 6: You would think the Navy had worked with porpoises, dolphins. 437 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 6: You would think that that would have been because they're 438 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 6: very intelligent. You would think you've worked with them, they 439 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 6: seem smart. Why would you not choose them? And the 440 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 6: rationale behind using sharks there were a number of reasons. 441 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 6: One was, unlike the porpoise, they're very quiet. They don't vocalize, 442 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 6: you know, the dolphins are like clicking and making adorable 443 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 6: flipper sounds. Also, it doesn't have a swim bladder, so 444 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 6: it wouldn't be picked up on sonar. You know, this 445 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 6: is like a secret agent on a mission, so it's 446 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 6: got to be stealthy. And they actually felt that the 447 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,959 Speaker 6: lesser intelligence of the shark was an advantage because they 448 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 6: felt they could and this is a quote, intellectually dominate 449 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 6: the shark anyway under that kind of control. They never 450 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 6: got very far, They never completed even that the distance. 451 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 6: They were very unhappy and I can read you the 452 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 6: conclusion from it. You know, this was a long time 453 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 6: that they worked on this. We have serious reservations concerning 454 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 6: the suitability of a shark as a vehicle for command, 455 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 6: guidance or transporting a payload any distance. 456 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 5: And then the other shark expert I spoke to it 457 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 5: was Christina Zanato. Christina dives with the sharks and she 458 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 5: knows them on a direct level better than maybe anyone 459 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 5: else on earth. 460 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 7: My name is Christina Zanato. 461 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 8: I am a professional diver based in the Bahamas working 462 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 8: with sharks in the wild as a behaviorist and ecologists 463 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 8: for the last thirty years. I'm also a cave explorer 464 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 8: and technical instructor. Shark is a very unique word. The 465 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 8: smallest shark in the world is the size of a pen. 466 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 8: The biggest shark in the world is the size of 467 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 8: a bus and a filter feed. My goal is to 468 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 8: educate people about the meaning of. 469 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 7: The word shark, the value of sharks in our oceans 470 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 7: for the survival of the ocean, which ultimately is our survival, 471 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 7: and the different understanding of what that word means. Sharks 472 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 7: is a living, a. 473 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 8: Breathing, thinking, intelligent creature who has been surviving in the. 474 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 7: Oceans for over four hundred and fifty million. 475 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 8: Years or comfortably shares their world with as humans encroaching 476 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 8: into them. 477 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 5: There is a series of shark attacks in the Red 478 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 5: Sea off the coast of Egypt, and it was put 479 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 5: out there that these were trained sharks to hurt the 480 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 5: Egyptian tourist industry economically. The crux of this all is 481 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 5: a belief that anyone, let alone the Israeli Secret Service, 482 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 5: is capable of training a shark to do anything as 483 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 5: complicated as that there. 484 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 7: Is a basic training that is a trigger by a reward. 485 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 8: Doctor Eugenie Clark back in nineteen fifty five talks and 486 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 8: lemon sharks that at the ring of the bell they 487 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 8: could push the button and get a little treat. You 488 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 8: might be able to do it once, but on the 489 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 8: second time the sharks like, Noah, I've already done that. 490 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 7: So no, there's no level of training like that of sharks. 491 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 5: Are there more likely scenarios for a shark to bite 492 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 5: someone than military training? 493 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 8: When we talk about shark bites, we always try to 494 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 8: you know, there's this viscous lineup, or it's a vicious attack, 495 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 8: or its aggressive, or it's an attack. But at the 496 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 8: end of the day, this is an animal trying to 497 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 8: feed and that's how natures design them to feed. More 498 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 8: is we forget that maybe these animals are going through something. 499 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 8: We forget that we are damaging their environment, we are 500 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 8: removing their food, we are invading into their world of 501 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 8: through coastal development, taking away the reverstrairies, building all the 502 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 8: resorts on the beach. 503 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 7: And they were like, oh, there's more encounters with sharks. 504 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 8: Will there's some more people in the war and were 505 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 8: encroaching into their world a little bit more, and. 506 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 5: Then I did some research on robotic sharks. Long story short, 507 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,199 Speaker 5: there's no way someone could build a robotic shark that 508 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 5: could do this. I also do research about the Egyptian 509 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 5: tourist industry at its peak was twenty ten, the year 510 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 5: of these attacks. It served about fourteen point seven million 511 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 5: visitors to Egypt that year and the revenue was twelve 512 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 5: and a half billion dollars, which was eleven percent of 513 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 5: the GDP. But in terms of Russian tourists, the largest 514 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 5: group was German tourists, Ukrainian tourists, which hopefully will not 515 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 5: be considered Russian tourists in the near future, Saudi Arabian, 516 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 5: the United Kingdom, Italy, Russian tourists were way down on 517 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 5: the list. Now, if you really wanted to use a 518 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 5: smart animal, beluga whales would be your choice. Beluga whales 519 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 5: are trainable, smart, friendly, and they have an amazing communication vocabulary. 520 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 5: The big problem with training at beluga whale is they 521 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 5: actually don't kill people. Well, I guess it's that time 522 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 5: where we have to welcome Adam Davidson in Man. 523 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 3: I thought we were going to stick with experts. 524 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 9: I only have one question robots are real sharks. Robots 525 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 9: are real trained sharks. 526 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: I think clearly the word that's it's in all our 527 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: heads right now is galliophobia, right, I mean, that's obvious, 528 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 1: the irrational fear of sharks. 529 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 2: What's the word for irrational fear of sharks? 530 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 3: That's it. 531 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: Is rational Galliophobia is what the entire audience is thinking now. 532 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: And I think this conspiracy theory plugs into that. Whenever 533 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 1: you go swimming, there is always a rational concern for 534 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: one safety, right, you can drown, things can to take 535 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: you from underneath. And I think fear of sharks is 536 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: that everyone has. And if the theory is that the 537 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: sharks were sent by a unfriendly intelligence service to damage 538 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: your economy, I think just that story is very effective. Okay, 539 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: let's take a break from the craziness just for a 540 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 1: minute or two. 541 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,239 Speaker 9: So you know, I've lived in the Middle East. I've 542 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 9: spent a lot of time in the Middle East, in 543 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 9: both Israel and the Arab world. And one thing that 544 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 9: I would actually say Israeli governments and Arab governments have 545 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 9: both invested a lot in is creating a mystique around 546 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 9: Israel's kind of superpowers. Right, the Israelis for obvious reasons. 547 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 9: They are a tiny nation surrounded by people who they 548 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 9: perceive as enemy, and they have some good evidence. There's 549 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 9: some pretty amazing moments in Israeli history, the Six Day 550 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 9: War in Tebe where even the independence warn forty eight 551 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 9: forty nine. But then also there is both Israel's foreign 552 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 9: policy but also its own domestic politics is really wrapped 553 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 9: up in the idea. That is, especially Israeli special forces 554 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 9: and Israeli technical people, the hackers, the scientific people in 555 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 9: the military are beyond the best in the world. They're 556 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 9: the smartest, the greatest, the most amazing. So it feels 557 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 9: like the ground is really set for people believing like, 558 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 9: if you can think of it, the Israelis could pull 559 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 9: it off. 560 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: And it's also set for blaming the Mossad, which you 561 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: can blame for everything, right, if it's this ultra effective organization, 562 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: you can blame your own shortcomings on it. So if 563 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: you're an Arab country you've got high inflation, or if 564 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: you've got internal strife for the crops don't come in, well, 565 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: it's not the regime's fault, right, you can blame the 566 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: other and people would be inclined to believe it. So 567 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: I think the Red Sea Egyptian shortcomings which are much 568 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: more likely to explain this, the loss of habitat, loss 569 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: of food supplies, making them more aggressive and so forth. 570 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: That's not where you want to go. Where you really 571 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: want to go is it's somebody else doing this to us. 572 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 3: It's not our fault. Yeah. 573 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 2: Still, I mean, you listen to putin. The CI is 574 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 2: blamed for everything that goes bad in Russia, and so 575 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 2: I'm sure in the Middle East blaming Israel is just 576 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 2: sort of a handy thing to be able to have 577 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 2: to take blame off yourself. 578 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 9: I do have a question, which I've actually had my 579 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 9: whole life. How do people in the intelligence community look 580 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 9: at the Israelis? As a young Jewish guy, I was 581 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 9: raised to thank Yeah, they're like the greatest spies and 582 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 9: special forces operators in the history of the universe. How 583 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 9: does CIA look at Mosad? And it's not just Masad, 584 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 9: it's Shinbette tess. I heard macall, there's a bunch of 585 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 9: these hyper elite Israeli groups. 586 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 2: Israel relies on the intelligence services to an unusual extent. 587 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 2: They're a small country and a dangerous part of the world. 588 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,479 Speaker 2: And their political masters are very focused on what the 589 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 2: intelligence services can do. And also they have laws that 590 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 2: allow the intelligence services to do things that we in 591 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 2: the West aren't allowed to do, assassinate, these these type 592 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 2: of things. And so I think they're very effective and 593 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 2: they're part of the world. But when people say, oh, 594 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 2: they're the best in the world, by no means do 595 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 2: they have the resources, ability, or whatever of a place 596 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 2: like the CIA, the or US intelligence community that has 597 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 2: worldwide reach, incredible resources, links with others all around the world. 598 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 2: And so to compare them to a bigger service like 599 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 2: the CIA is not really fair to them. 600 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: They're a niche service. They focus on one or two 601 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: things and they do those very well. And because they 602 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: got their back to the wall, they're highly motivated for 603 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: good reasons they should be, and they're effective. They're pretty 604 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: merciless when it comes to their mission and they and 605 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: they need to be. 606 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 9: But is it that they're good on a relative basis 607 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 9: or are they actually just plain good? Like are there 608 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 9: jobs you would be like, you know what the Israelis 609 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 9: would do better than. 610 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 2: The Americans, Well, there's things that we can't do, Like 611 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 2: they can go into a place like Iran, and put 612 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 2: bombs down and stuff like that. That's not something that 613 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 2: we're allowed to do for legal reasons, for our own 614 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: sort of internal things. And so there's things that we 615 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: might go to them that they have skill in because 616 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 2: they do those kind of things, not to bomb for 617 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 2: us necessarily, but some of their knowledge that they gain 618 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 2: by being in places where we can't be and that 619 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 2: type of thing. But the thing is, we do the 620 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 2: same with the Brits and the Japanese and others who 621 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: have things that we don't have that we can then 622 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 2: take advantage of. 623 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: So Mosad and Cia are both creatures of democracies. We 624 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: have to do what our politicians tell us to and 625 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: so we are policy instruments to a greater degree, and 626 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: when policy is not good or policy is flawed, then 627 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: what we do is going to be flawed, even if 628 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: we're successful. There's this great book, Rise Up and Kill 629 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: First is a history of the Mosad, and even some 630 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: of their greatest successes tactical successes have led to strategic failures. 631 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: For example, how Mosad or the Israeli secret services were 632 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: able to track and locate and find a way to 633 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: kill shaik Ya seen the head of Hamas and Okay, 634 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: he's a bad guy. He was killing Israelis. He arguably 635 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: deserves it, only arguably because the people that replaced him 636 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: were open to operating with the Iranians despite the fact 637 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: that they were radical Sunnies. And then what Israel faced 638 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: was Hamas plus Iran, whereas you see, didn't take resources 639 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: and weapons from Irans because they were Shia. Israel arguably 640 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: because of policy, not because of what Israeli secret services did, 641 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: arguably made things worse. So it was that good or bad. 642 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: It was a tactically good, perhaps strategically less so. 643 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 9: All right, So let's dig into sharks being specially trained 644 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 9: to eat. So to me, this one ranks fairly low 645 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 9: as a convincing It's not an elegant conspiracy theory. There's 646 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 9: a lot of moving parts, a lot of room for 647 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 9: err I don't know how many shark trainers you need. 648 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: Pretty much established that you can't train sharks, that's one 649 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,919 Speaker 1: of the problems. You can manage them. You can bring 650 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: them into an area through chumming and so forth. 651 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 2: So the notion that train sharks go after certain tourists 652 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 2: with the plan of, you know, destroying the Egyptian economy 653 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 2: doesn't hold together. But it certainly is possible that a 654 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 2: group could come in and dump just a bunch of 655 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 2: sharks in an area where there's lots of tourists and 656 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 2: hope expect that it would cause some sort of panic. 657 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: That's possible, right if you're trying to convince Egyptian public 658 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: that it's not their fault that the Red Sea environment 659 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: is all screwed up. It's the most out I think 660 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: it could be effective domestically inside of Egypt, and certainly 661 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: this is where it's been spread is among Egyptian politicians 662 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: trying to explain this. But to the wider world. I 663 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: don't think the Russians by it. I don't think anybody 664 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 1: else does either. 665 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 2: I think it's it's pretty for a short term Egyptian 666 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 2: politician try to get himself out of being blamed for something. 667 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 2: It probably had some utility. 668 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 9: So I'm giving this one. I'm giving her a one 669 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 9: point eight. It's kind of original, it has a little creativity, 670 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 9: but as a conspiracy theory, like if we're in the 671 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 9: meeting of the conspiracy theorists of the world, I don't 672 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 9: think this one's getting any awards. 673 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to disagree. 674 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: I just got a phone call from my buddy Hamid 675 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: in Cairo and he said, this is a four point 676 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:36,919 Speaker 1: eight Wow. 677 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 9: Okay, yeah, Well my. 678 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 2: Buddy Yuri and Tel Aviv just called me and so 679 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 2: that's not true. 680 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 5: To one mission implausible. It was produced by Adam Davidson, 681 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 5: Jerry O'sha, John Cipher, and Jonathan Stern. The associate producers 682 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 5: are Rachel Harner and David Salinger. This has been a 683 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 5: production of honorable, mention and abominable pictures for iHeartMedia.